A Lack of Fidelity
The question of fidelity often intrigues me. If one of your friends came to you and said that their other half has been unfaithful, in what form do you immediately think that the act of unfaithfulness has taken place? I will wager than in the vast majority of cases you will think that him or her has slept with someone else. I am perplexed by how people become so upset if the form of infidelity is the fact that someone has slept with someone else. It may be a one-off drunken occurrence and the name of the other party was not even known or most likely has now been forgotten. Certainly from my perspective an act of physical infidelity is meaningless – it has no resonance with me in terms of forming a bond with the other person. It is purely an act by which we draw them into our web or most likely for the purposes of drawing a reaction from you because we know, for some reason, you get most upset about the fact we engaged in physical contact with another person even though it may not be repeated and meant nothing to us. The act itself rarely generates any pleasure for us, it is the reactions that arise from it that are the aim. Similarly, if one spends time with another member of the opposite sex, that also seems to generate a reaction too. Why is that? You remark about having friends (some of whom are of the opposite sex) so why can we not do so and why must you become so agitated when we explain we are going to lunch with that person or attending a show with him or her? Is it perhaps the fact we are not spending the time with you since we are spending time with another? Is it not borne out of your jealousy and insecurity, rather than anything we have done that is deemed to be morally reprehensible? Now, I can comprehend that you feel distraught should your partner be sharing their hopes, fears and deepest secrets with someone else. I am aware from extensive studying of other people that an individual feels most betrayed when they know their partner has been engaging in soul-searching with another person, conveying their deepest feelings and heart felt concerns. Oddly enough, you need not be concerned about me doing that, even though I am spending time with someone else. I know from the things that you have said to me that the emotional connection you feel with someone trumps everything else. If you regard that emotional connection being shared between you and someone else or even diverted away from you to that other person, then quite a reaction indeed arises from you. Yet, do you not demonstrate hypocrisy in adopting this attitude? I know for a fact (since I have listened in on your conversations) that you talk about everything to your sister and two of your friends. Is that not sharing or diverting your emotional connection with others instead of me? In fact, you divulge all of the details in lengthy analytical discussions. I may spend time with other women but I tell you this, I do not go into the intricacies of how I feel. I do not discuss what might trouble me or what is gnawing at my mind. It is true. I am too busy charming them by showing off about my achievements, my promotion, my wealth and my urbane charm. I am engaging in telling them ultimately banal and ephemeral things about me in order to draw them closer to me to extract fuel from them. I am listening to their intimate details in order to use them against that person at a later date. I do not pour out the contents of my heart to this individual, I have no need to and indeed I am not wired this way. Thus, your irate reactions when you learn I have been for a coffee with a new neighbour are misplaced. It is I who has the basis for complaining about you spending two hours on the telephone to your friend poring over our relationship in detail. Interestingly, should you learn that I had been spotted kissing some random lady in a bar late at night in a transient and brief liaison you hit the roof.
If you analysed my behaviour you might actually regard it in a different light. Is spending time with a member of the opposite sex being unfaithful? We have an enjoyable time, laugh and joke, yet do not indulge in any physical interaction nor sharing of secrets. The physical liaisons are meaningless too save for the reaction we generate from gaining an admirer (and sometimes we are not ultimately bothered about that) and more usually about your massive emotional response to learning of our one night stand with person unnamed.
Now, I do not want you to change, heavens no. If you did then I would lose so much fuel by you not reacting to these alleged acts of infidelity but you may like to consider, having read my observations on our behaviour from my point of view, whether it really is the sin you consider it to be.
29 thoughts on “A Lack of Fidelity”
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Perfect text. I admit, you right. Thank you.
I immediately remembered the hot breath of this pain, that burning jealousy, of his smile at someone else, of his look at someone else, of his one word…
The suffering was compounded many times, when I was pregnant, and then I was taking care of our newborn baby alone. And he kept coming back and forth, leaving understatements and purposeful clues.
I felt like he was constantly stealing the time he should have devoted to our daughter.
—————–
Interestingly, despite the continued game with him (on an almost invisible level), now I don’t care what he does and who he does. I am little, or maybe even completely not interested in it. And hes explanations bore me. He only matters, when he interact with me. Currently, this interaction is at a minimal level, almost nil.
—————–
Amazingly, when he hurt me the most, he never apologized. Now, his apologies, pointless explanations, and even “forgive me” are starting to replace “good morning”.
I couldn’t read the whole post. You do ramble on at times. This post is disingenuous.
1. You’re incapable of being faithful
2. You’re triangulating people and trying to stir shit up for your fuel
3. Intentions matter and yours are always to feed your supply
4. This is all mind games.
Stolen from survivednarc but I want to share it sgain because its so beautiful this song ❤️
http://youtu.be/9yWgi9_Bva8
Beautiful, thanks for sharing this one Nikita!
I have been very busy lately, but will try to find time to get back to you soon:-)
Hey Alice
Finally Friday…. Time to write 😃. Hope youre now feeling better.,
I thank you for your words above. Its amazing what you write and amazing that you share this part of your life to give light to those who are still in the dark.
When I started reading your last comment I had to stop for a moment and thought could it be that we shared the same man?
Many things were the same.. Many many
The stop word and game… The small balcony in a majestic city … Fortunately was not Zurich 😓
When I finished reading I could feel your pain as Im familiar with the saying goodbye… Youre very good in writting I have to say.. His pain was also perceivable…
Its a sad story like all of ours…
Stories and people are so similar but yet so different.
HG our favorite Narc blogger seems to thrive on sufferment, tears and drama.. And you certainly did also go into this drama.. But you describe is for me a hardcore drama…
This is the day where Im not sure if my N lets call him R feels empowered by this negative vibes.
I have to say that I although Im a South American I am peaceful, budhistic, peace and love woodstock type😂😂
So there are no rages, borderline type discussions 😂…. I leave before that and of course continue coming back…
Me and him we spend alot of time in peace, in nature and enjoy the time together…
Him telling me I cant love you like you love me.. I can only love you sometimes but other times I dont… I love by moments..
I dont like love to take away my freedom…
Its painful painful to hear, like a sword crossing my heart..i love him with all the power God gave me to love a man…
It hurts…
I dont know how much or how long it will take to be able to walk away….like you did.
Maybe the day he discards me.. Maybe this will be what it takes…
Just talking about it makes me ache all over😖
But you are Alice stronger than me because I would have never resited neither so much sufferent as you did…
Enjoy the weekend ☀️
Wow Alice what a touching and illustrative message. Thanks for sharing. i have a piece to tell you about your reply …but I will tomorrow. Had a bad nite and im falling asleep. Gute Besserung!
The next morning, he barely took the time to look at me. He pretended to be in a hurry, he didn´t listen to me, it was clear he wanted out to work and away from me asap.
We hadn´t fixed our next meeting date (in fact, we almost never did. That was another one of his techniques to keep all options open and to show me that he wasn´t committed.) I was desperate: “What is it? There is such a strange feeling in here now… is it because of what I told you about my husband the other night? You know I told you that because I wanted to be honest with you. I thought that if you spent your birthday [note: in May – it was now August] with your ex-girlfriend and you told me she slept in your bed, that wouldn´t be just as friends, as you have said. I was convinced that you would´ve at least tried. So I slept with my husband, just to feel better. But I didn´t desire him. I desire only you.”
[Oh Nikita, isn´t it terrible how low I´d sunk? But I guess I had to sink that low to gather the strengh to rise again from the ashes. And so will you!]
A: “I fully understand that you reverted back to your husband while things were not working between the two of us. It doesn´t matter. You don´t have to apologize for it. It´s normal. Listen, I have to go now.”!
Me: “I know. I hope you´ll have a good week.”
A: “Thank you. Bye. Take care and have a safe trip home.”
Me [almost in tears]: “Bye. Go away now. Bye.”
That was it. The beginning of the end. He didn´t contact me for several days. Then he was elusive for three weeks. Forgot about fixing another appointment, didn´t want to talk on the phone in a real, connected way, and when we finally met three weeks later at another café in Cologne at the beginning of September, he didn´t know what he wanted. He had kissed me passionately during a walk in the park, but then, he started to say things like “I don´t know what I want. Maybe I will get back with M (his ex girlfriend) and spend a week in Magdeburg with her (he has a wood house nearby a lake there which I never visited, unlike his other places). “I have to talk to her and speak the truth to her now that she has passed those exams… I don´t know what I want yet… I don´t feel anything anymore, I am out of touch with my feelings for you and even with my own, I am totally disconnected from myself… I don´t want to be pressured….you are pressuring me into something that I am not. I hate it when you say what I could be and what we could be… I will decide myself what to be. Let me be, I am not good for you, I am unsociable! I am an outcast. I can see that am not doing you any good. I am tired now. Bye.”
And this was when the mask, dropped. It was such a shock, I stood there in shook like a pillar of salt. He left. I went back to my car. When I drove away, I catched a look that he throw me: it was a stony, ice-cold, malicious look. My blood froze and I thought: “Oh my God, that is not a human look. He is a reptilian.”
The next day, I wrote him a farewell e.mail. I implemented no contact. I broke it a couple of times but I always re-implemented it and stuck to my guns. I never slept with him again. We only met three times at the end of 2014, and haven´t met in 2015. He hoovered every month. I never reacted, with two exeptions (before his birthday and the phoen call).
I researched EVERYTHING there is on the web about narcissism. First, emotional unavailable men, which led me to narcissists and psychopaths. Finally, it all fell into place. Withdrawl was terribly hard but somehow, I made it. I am still battling in the aftermath but I am sane and whole and happy again (most of the time:-))
Whenever I miss being with him (that is: the great moments, the illusion of intimacy, I recall myself *that reptilian look”.
This look stayed with me for months and months and months. Everytime I struggle, I remember that look and I know I have to move forward, not backwards.
I remind myself of it every single day without fail. Today has been a particularily difficult day. I am ill at home, couldn´t make it to last week´s CoDa Conference because of that:-(
And then, Paris. My mom´s hometown. I have been to all those places before. I am half French. I always wanted to go to Paris with A (who is fluent in French), we had plans for `special nights´out there, which never materialized. I still mourn that. Then, what is currently going on Brussels. He works there as a foreign TV reporter for a German TV station. I haven´t seen him on air so far, but I am scared that something happens to him, that he gets hurt. I still love him, although I will never be able to live that with him, because he hates to be loved.
You see, I am not stronger nor weaker than you. I am struggeling like you do. But I know that it is VITAL to make it out of the rabbit hole and into the light. I know you will eventually have that `aha-moment´ too. It´s only a matter of time. Meanwhile, be kind to yourself:-))
P.S. This is not meant to be fuel from me to malignarc or any narc. It is meant to be understanding and energy vibes for you and all the other women rising from narc abuse. It´s very personal, and it´s risky. But I had to get that OUT OF MY SYSTEM FOR GOOD.
Thanks to everybody who takes the time to read this.
Lots of love xx
Alice
[I am an empath. And he has conditioned me. So of course, I feel that he is disappointed. I think that after all, he is right: I introduced a women in thoughts, as a fantasy, into our love-making last night. Why did I get so upset about the whole situation today then? Will he leave me because he thinks that I am not interested in that fantasy anymore? I can´t seem myself doing a threesome with anyone but him, EVER. I want it to happen with him or with nobody. Why I am so scared. So I doubt myself, my head is spinning, I am all shaky inside.]
Me: “I need to tell you how I feel… I feel weak and scared. It is true that I am not lesbian, but it is also true that I have been fantasising about you and me and another girl…I just don´t know how to get to the point where I could trust you and me in that situation…. there is a part in me that wants this, another part is scared of what might happen if we try this out… I am scared that I would loose myself, or get lost, or that you´d abandon me… I am sorry that I lost it at the café… I shouldn´t have over-reacted that way… [sic! He got me where he wanted me by now. TRAPPED and totally confused, apologising for things I hadn´t even done.]
A: “That´s OK. Don´t worry Sweety. Let´s go to bed.”
Me: “OK. Thanks.”
This is the night where he `allowed me´ to please him with oral sex for the first time (I hope I am not being to blunt here, but I think it is important to understand the dynamics of it.). I had always wanted to be able to do that with him from A-Z, but he had always interrupted that before “Z” and taken over control again and to make “Z” happen in a way where he would be very dominant and in charge.
That night, it was different. Maybe I had fueled him enough by showing him all those deep vulnerabilties and dark places withing myself so that he felt safe enough to give up control and just let me do that?
After that happened, I was very happy. But he had a panic/anxiety attack that night. It lasted almost an hour and I had to rock him in my arms like a baby. He shaked and cried and shivered and told me that he would never ever deal with those depression, that he was overwhelmed with what had happened at work, that he felt so empty and lonely and that he needed me to just hold him. “Just be nice to me, don´t talk.” [:-0]
The next morning. he was distant. He spoiled a bike tour I had been looking forwad to by barely speaking and looking annoyed. He didn´t want to eat the Crêpes I had prepared for dinner, pretending that he wasn´t hungry and that he had to sort out papers for work.
We went to bed. It was my last night with him before I had to travel back to Cologne. He pretended that he wanted to read, he looked at his smartphone, typed some short messages (to his daughter, he claimed), he seemend aloof and distant. As usual, he woke up in the middle of the night, full of anxiety, sweating. He needed physical intimacy to calm down so I instinctively repeated the oral sex (with me in the active role), and this kind of worked for him. Afterwards, I yearned for him to reciprocate in one way or another. Usually, he would do that because his self-image depended largely on being a good lover. But not that night. Instead, he turned ice cold: “I am tired. I am not aroused any more. But I don´t mind if you please yourself. Don´t be ashamed to do that. You know I enjoy watching you do that.”
I felt miserable. “No. I can´t. I want your touch or nothing. It doesn´t have to be ‘that way’ or in any enegery depleting way…’ Can´t you just touch me with your hands?”
A: “Sorry Baby, but I can´t. I need to sleep. I have a rough week ahead. Good night.” He turned around.
I was dumbfounded, frustrated, utterly confused and felt lower than low. I tried to fall asleep and finally did. A little bit later in the night, I woke up. He was stroking me. I was still half asleep. I let him please me that way, feeling totally helpless, will-less, like a puppet.
A: “Hmmm, you are so soft and sweet. I like it when you are sleepy… do you feel better now?”
Me: “Yes… I think so… I feel better.”
Oh, how similar, though I acted differently…
In order to achieve, what I wanted to do with him, I had to control myself very much.
We dated for about 2.5 years, we were together, we lived together for a while, but we were never together.
During this time, I NEVER, I repeat: I have NEVER initiated sex with him myself, even as I was burning with lust for him, my insides pulsating, I was lying next to him, I could feel his smell and warmth. I ALWAYS waited for his move. He had to want “me”. It was only when HE showed the will and put in the effort to overcome my resistance, that I set my devil free and I could do whatever I wanted.
For years I have wondered about it – why, wanting him so badly, did I hold back so much?
Instinctively, I felt that if I push, show how much I want, I will get NOTHING.
I understand it better now. Yes, it was a reward for my effort. The system of punishments and rewards is very close to me – I have been using it on my own since forever.
Pleasure (of various types) is the greatest reward.
I miss his reward/my reward…
—————–
I instinctively applied the same principle later in formal matters concerning our child – he could have complete freedom, which he used for over a year. Now I know, why he joined us formally (I wanted it, but I always refused!) a week before his big disappearance (for 13 years).
And recently, I did the same with child support payments, which, to my surprise, “voluntarily”, with smaller and more difficulties, he already paying for 2 years (after 13 years of non-payment and completely ineffective law enforcement).
I just realized that. In fact – the same principle. No pressure, coupled with a punishment and reward system.
Yes, I also hate pressure. I kind of understand. But for him, even a rustle can become a pressure…
Is it his will or mine? Mine or his?
Me: “-No, not now. It is 11 pm, you´ve just spent hours ranting about that editor who doesn´t know anything about investigative journalism and who doesn´t appreciate your work and your worth… I don´t want to look at women I have never met and don´t want to meet either.”
A: “-Why are you so stubborn and , wasn´t it you who said that it´s fun to look at people in the street or tram or in cafés and play that ‘guess-where-they-are-coming-from-game’?”
Me: “-Yes, but not right now, I´m not in the mood for that. We haven´t seen each other for three weeks (he lives in Brussel, I worked in Cologne and it was holiday time so I´d been away with the kids), I just travelled here to spend the week-end with you and you had to work all Sunday because of an emergency call of that editor you keep ranting about. I want to go home and relax.”
A: “-Well, I want to finish my beer first.”
[Silence]
A: “-Oh, the girl is coming our way, NOW you may dare to have a look at her, hm? After all, she´s really pretty, she has that typical Russian style, and didn´t you say you liked tall, slim women with long brown hair and a touch of sexy. That this would be the kind of girl you´d consider for a threesome” [Sic!]
Me: “A, , this is ridicoulous. STOP!” (Stop was a code red word we´d agreed on for sexual play).
A: “-Well, ok. If you´re not in the mood for that type of play, let´s go.” [His eyes follow the girl who passes right in front of us, so I can´t but l look at her. Yes, she is tall, slim and pretty. But so I am. I am a blonde, she is a brunette. She is a bit younger but she wears waaay too much make up. I am a natural beauty. I am half-French so I have always been wearing make-up but rather in a classy or natural way, not the flashy/bitchy way that Russian woman wears it. I know A has has a red-lipstick-fetish so I have been wearing red lipstick more often, though I am not really that fond of it… I feel strange, weak and drained, why do I compare myself to other woment. I have never ever even thought in catetories of comparison in my 40 life years. And now, I do that all the time. Like other women were a threat… as if I could be replaced any time, anywhere, with no warning whatsoever].
Me: “-She´s is not *that* special.
[BOOM! There I go – I stepped right into his trap. It most have been a huge flow of fuel rushing through his veines in that very moment of weakness I showed.]
A: “Hmm, well… she is not common either… but neither are you. You are so special. That´s what I love about you. You are unique.” [Grins maliciously and kisses me lightly on the cheek]. OK, let´s go now.”
[Silence].
A: “Are you OK?”
Me: “I don´t know. I don´t like what you did in that café… the way you tried to force me to focus on that random girl… why can´t you just concentrate on what we can share, during the short 48-hours we occacionally have together? Can´t you have the class to leave other women out of the play at least during those short weekends we share.”
A: “Sure. I don´t see why you are so upset. I never gave you any reason to be jealous in that way. I could do that, but I didn´t. You won´t find any example for that.”
Me: “No. I´m not going to get trapped in that stupid game.”
A: “Comme vous voulez, Madame.”
[Silence]
A: “Hm?”
Me: (making another HUGE mistake): “You know what? I am not a lesbian!”
A: “I know.”
Me (continuing): “I have thought so much about this, and wondered if I wanted to share an experience with you and another girl, a girl that I would feel good and comfortable with, but… I just don´t see myself doing that. I feel pressured. You are pressuring me into situations and competition in a way that I don´t like. Maybe I´m just not made for that. Sorry to disappoint you here! I can´t change it. I am not lesbian, never have been, never will be. Full stop.”
A: “Well, calm down, will you? YOU introduced them into our sexual fantasies, not ME. YOU pointed me to that other girl at the other restaurant last night… we´ve had this as a fantasy in bed last night… why are you so volatile in your wishes?”
Me: “That was a FANTASY, it wasn´t for real! It wasn´t totally out of the context. It wasn´t after I´d spent two hours listening you complain about that editor in Hamburg. It wasn´t after I´d spent the entire day waiting for you to come back from work because you had trouble at the TV station and had to advice you on five phone-calls with your chiefs, supervisors, enemies and so-called friends…. is this a f****ng war against me or what?”
A: “Of course not. Aww, come on Sweety [pulls me real close into his arms]. We have such a wonderful time together, I´m so happy that you´re here with me, supporting me. Let´s not spoil that with such stupidities. Stuff that doesn´t matter at all. I don´t miss anything at all right now. Those fantasies… surely, one day we´ll both get there and make it happen, but not right now.”
Me: “OK, thank you. I am exhausted and tired. I look forward to get home.”
[We´re at his pld-building appartment situated in a great area of Brussels, Ixelles. He pours us two drinks, we´re sitting on his tiny but beautiful balcolny towering Brussels. It is a warm summer night. Wild Brussels parrots fly by. I love being here. And it´s just the two of us here (not true as long as his cell phone is there, placed at armths length, but anyway)… I want him to comfort me, to reassure me. In fact, I have thought and fantasized about the threesome thing quite often, and about other stuff as well. We have already tried out lots of kinky stuff including a visit to the last `porn cinema´ in Brussels (my idea – it scared the hell out of him when we were there with all these men with me as the only woman, but I had lots of fun, hihi:-)) But… I never felt safe enough with him so far. I wanted to feel safe in a way that no other (third) person would be able to break or special bond, or intimacy. Unfortunately, he never got this. He became impatient with me.
I echo Nikita… I read your story with a lot of interest and appreciation.
Narc number 2 ( of 4) ghosted after 4 years, an abortion and convincing my whole family he would leave his wife for me.
When he ghosted on me, we were planning Christmas, I sent him a pic of my tree , he said wow! that was it. Never heard from him again.
Took me 1.5 years to get back on my feet and met a woman I know to whom he has done the same tricks as me except she was clever enough to block him and went NC after seeing him a couple time.
At the time, I thought he was an asshole, a schizophrenic, etc Now I know better. He has followed the perfect Narc handbook steps by steps.
I know I did not do anything… but fall for my 2 of 4 narc in a row.
Golden- silent-shelving-devaluations- hoovers etc… I find you really good to have gone NC that way and I admire your strength.
@On my Journey: Thank you for sharing some of your story! Isn’t it strange how they all act as if they’d studied at the same “Narcissism School”?
I watched a documentary today with my kids on how the first humans evolved, and they explained how empathy developed in humans in the paleo era. They also showed how the leaders of a group became the leader or ‘alpha’, and how and why tribes began to kill or dominste each other.
It was so interesting to note that this required a certain lack of empathy and an egoïsm beyond mere “survival instinct”, also manipulation (when tribes were bargsining for goods or land or females). So some members of the tribes developed more narcissistic or even psychopathic features than others to take over those tasks, whereas others developed their empathic, more caring and commuity-oriented skills.
Maybe narcissism and psychopathy are somewhat natural or even necessary elements of humanity? After all, with all the current hype of Artificial Intelligence and Robotics a THE FUTURE of what society will rely on – who could get closer to emotionless machines than narcs and psychopaths?
This is not to excuse the harm and suffering psychopath and narcs are causing to everybody who gets too close – just ‘food for thought’!
I wish you all the best On your Journey: if you don’t stop bekieving that you can and will hesl, you will heal!!! xx Alice
Thank you for your observations Alice, there is considerable force in what you have written and it is an observation that repeatedly is made concerning necessity of our kind in the achievement of certain matters.
You’re welcome, HG! The more distance to and understanding of I achieve to what has happened between the narc and me, and of narcissism in general, the less anger, disappointment and hurt I feel. Today, I strongly believe that narcissists have a specific role to play in society and politics. It takes a certain ‘frame’ to be able to dare certain things, cross certain boundaries and move things forward. It also takes a certain type of ‘disruption’ to make other (more ‘normal/peaceful’ people) evaluate, defend or reconsider their aims, beliefs, boundaries, limitations and moral compass. Light needs darkness to shine and love needs a certain amount of pain to transform into something meaningful. It’s about reaching the *next level* of feelings and consciousness.
I am currently exploring the interface of Artificial Intelligence, Robotics & Law in my work, and the different concepts of liability which could apply to AII-derived actions (good or bad) and ‘manifestations’. Inhowfar can a self-learning , ‘intelligent’ machine be held responsible? If ‘smart’ robots cannot be held responsible because they have been ‘programmed’ that way by a human or a software or another machine, who is in charge?
How does this translate to human actions, especially narcissistic behaviour? Those are very fascinating and challenging questions to explore!
This blog here – and the business model behind it – has been pre-thought and/or constructed by an AI-like mind, for sure! This is more than obvious to me!! I am still not 100% sure if you, HG, are truly a narcissist or someone who has gone to severe narcissistic abuse and survived it by deconstructing it. It doesn’t matter:-) In both cases, a form or display of narcissism would have resulted in a greater benefit for society: ‘targets’ of narc abuse have been offered a comprehensive guide and analysis of what it is all about, in a format which is easy to understand. A great and necessary addition to Sam Vaknin’s work and all the survivors’ blogs out there!
It has also become an archive of knowledge and personal histories – yours and ours – engraved in time and space.
Thereby, you have atoned.
Thank you Alice ! On the continuum of the marcisstic traits some of them are really useful to survival and order but when it goes to far in one person on the continuum and that it becomes a dis” order” that it becomes dangerous for unaware people .
They don’t seem to have control over their illusion to manipulate and to HG ‘s point only the greater knows.
Lately I have contemplated revenge on this Narc. I have tons of pictures of our trip around the world etc . He is very caught up in facade with his family who wins all the prizes at the perfect family contest.
My actual Narc in his greatness is so disordered that you know something is wrong right off the gate , that one , had everything perfect – for 4 years he conned me , my friends , my family we have all been hurt.
So yes narcissistic traits are useful and necessary in the right dosage in the right context with the right objective ….
None of which the disordered Narcs that are the topic of this blog do.
Nice chatting Alice .
@On my Journey: Yes, I totally agree that it’s about the degree of (harmful) narcissism or rather, whether or not the narc manages to control himself and possibly redirect his impulses and lack of genuine feeling and empathy (with others AND himself, as I see it) towards a greater purpose. It is true that only the Greater seems to have this capacity, and maybe only temporarily and in an ‘abstract way’. By ‘abstract’, I mean ‘not with his loved ones / closed one’, definitely not with his IPPS et al., but with goals and concepts of more theoretical nature, such as good investigative journalism (such as in the case of the narc formerly in my life, or as in the case of this blog here). Even a ‘monster’ such as Putin – a psychopath in my view – may serve a ‘higher cause’ such as “restauring the Soviet supremacy in the world”. Not saying that this is a good thing, just trying to illustrate how I perceive the mechanisms and purpose / justification of narcissistic behaviour patterns and actions.
As to revenge: I know that urge to take revenge and it haunted me for years!! It is such an icky feeling. I tried to resist it by telling myself that I didn’t want to lower myself to the narcs behaviour. I didn’t want to act like him. It would have meant that he’d spoiled my character. Which he did. After three years of resistance to talking to the other ex-girlfriend (the one he discarded before me but had kept on the shelf for triangulation and for times of low fuel), I contacted her and wrote her a message to share what I’d experienced with him (a fake heaven and a real hell). I apologised to her for having been an enabler of his deceit and betrayel towards her. She read the message but never r responded. However, I didn’t feel a sense of revenge when I finally did this. It felt like finally speaking the truth and clearing the last open issue that had haunted me for almost 4 years.
I guess it was still an egoïstic move on my part. But I had to do it to get fully over that experience. I had ro expose him to her at some point. I don’t know if this qualifies as revenge. Probably for her and surely for him. But not for me.
Luckily, I resisted the urge to *real revenge*, which would have been exposing some of his lies to his employer. He was and still is battling in Court with his employer, whom he accuses of “mobbying” (yes, the victim card). I could easily destroy him and his credibility by exposing some of his reckless behaviours during work. But even in my darkest hours, I trusted that I’d never do that, never go that low. Instead of destroying him, it would have destroyed me. The person yearning for revenge was the ill, hurt and ‘infected’ version of myself – not the real me, definitely not my inner voice or true self speaking here! I am so thankful that I resisted the urge to give in and take such type of destrutive revenge!! Instead, I spent months and years working on re-focussing on myself and on working on forgiveness (especially forgiving myself, but also forgiving the narc).
We should not destroy ourselves by taking revenge.
I hope you will find a way past revenge! It is such a relief to let go of those obsessive thoughts. It usually happens when we take the focus entirely of the narc(s) / narcissism in general, and re-centre on ourselves.
x Alice
Dear Nikita,
I just read your comment. Yes, I know those feelings of craving those moments of intense connection, synchronicity and `closeness/unity´ with the narc. I also know how it feels like when they arbitrarily withdraw that connection. This technique is used intermittend reinforcement, and it´s a well-known abuse/emotional manipulation technique used by psychopaths, narcissists but also politician and CEOs to condition a certain submissiveness and dependency in the target.
It´s part of the manipulative, psychopathic bond and key in the abusive cycle. It´s aim is keeping the target off-balance, destabilised and always begging for the good all times to return and stay that way (but that NEVER happens).
The insidious thing about it is that the abuser doesn´t even have to act in an unfriendly or visibly cruel/brutal way. They condition you with `crumbs of attention´ intermittent with periods of silent treatments, withdrawls, not being emotionally available… even not really listening or forgetting that they did something particular with you (like: “-Have we already been to that museum togehter? I can´t remember with whom I was there lately.” “-Well, we went there last month.” “Oh, really? Yeah, you´re right. I wasn´t sure I went with you.”) It is a very subtle, veiled way of shifting the focus and the importance of a partner in their life to “random person.” The narc in my life (let´s call him A, it´s easier), did that very often – usually when things were great and I thought we had a great time. I often wondered: “- How could he forget we went to that museum just three weeks ago? Is it the anti-depressants he is taking? The stress? The problems at work?” Well, nope. It´s just a great way to weaken my self-confidence and to undermine my self-image.
The classic thing is, of course, the triangulation with other women. They don´t even have to really be in his life. A used dating sites to triangulate me, his ex girl-friend, former girl-friends from years ago that he would mention or look up on the internet and reconnect with, for no reason whatsoever, colleagues… or just random attractive women sitting in a café next to us. Example:
A: “-Over there is a woman, she surely looks like a Russian socialite! See her?” (He´d worked in Russia as a foreign reporter for several years, during the Tchechenian war, and referred to that period as some kind of a `golden period´ in his life. Of course, he was cheating on his wife then, despite the fact that she´d just given birth to a little girl, their daugther.)
Me: -“Aha, ok. So what? We were just talking about that editor you don´t get along with…”
A: “-Yeah, but I don´t want to talk about him any more! Turn around and take a look at that girl, she´s really beautiful!”
Dear Alice
Thanks alot. I hope youre conference was good.
Youve been like an angel to me… Yours words give me courage and hope. Whar you wrote above Is amazing, you must be so proud of yourself.
Me too I hope one day I can talk like you.
But tell me Alice, where did you get the forces to do this? Did you first do some kind of healing? I told you Im in London in 2 weeks with Ross Rosemberg.
Hoping to become strong like you are.
Im slowly separating from him. Ive told him about my codependancy, about my pain, about the seminar
He has not really never discarded me, on the contrary he never lets me go, im the one discarding him… When he tells me I should respect his privacy and he does not answer my messages etc. he is an incredible handsome man abd therefor so just on that side he can get all the supply he wants…
He also does alot of the narc stuff like manufacturing situations that There is drama… Critics, no tolerance to that I would place any critic… Bad mood for small things… I am forgetful and not too organized 😖….
He says that he is never going to let me go. That we stay together until forever and even beyond life we stay together.
When Im with him I just feel insideso warm, so full, so like the minutes should not pass, time should stop forever…
The day i saw him again and after 3 months of not seeing him I remember as one of the happiest days of my life….
I had never in my life felt this way for somebody and Ive been my whole life only in Narc relationships but I could leave somehow… Left my marriage of 14 years…
But this time its something I had not experienced…
But I dont loose my hope and your messages has been very enlightening. Thanks.
Thanks also to malignnarc for this very good excellent blog.
Of course Alice cant take away your fuel 😂😂😃
You are welcome, thank you for your contributions to the blog and the discussions.
@malignarc
We went back. We both are not able to let go. If he is not with me nothing makes sense. I need him like air for my lungs. We are at the stage that we are very close friends… So no sex and I dont interfere with his free time. But when we are together we enjoy each others comepany. Im a codepedant in search of recovery
Dear Nikita,
I really understand how you feel.
It is normal for a narc victim to act and feel that way.
However, we all know that the *dance* between the co-pedendant and the narcissist ALWAYS follows the same cycle: idealisation, devaluation/abuse and the eventually discard, sometimes even destruction of your very soul.
I am sure and have trust in you that one day, You will be able to break that cycle and free yourself out of that painful web. That will probably be after you have hit that ‘rock bottom point’. Since the darkest hour is right before the dawn (quote by Bob Dylan;-)), this will eventually be the day when you will tell yourself ‘NO MORE’. No more crumbs, no more waiting around, no more being declassified as ‘the other woman’, no more miserable life through another person instead of living inside out of youself. That will be the day when you will start no contact and enforce it for good.
Withdrawing from a narcopath is incredibly difficult – I have been out of my liaison for a year now and still struggle with missing the good times we had, still mourn the man he could have been (with me, of course – the man he was in the beginning-))
I refused the ‘can’t we just be friends Mode’ when he offered it to me at the end of September during a long phone call I accepted after almost 6 months of no contact. I accepted the phone conversation because (1) I craved him at that very moment and (2) I hoped to get some kind of closure and (3) and wanted to get my power back by withstanding his hoover, speaking out my truth and rejecting his ‘friendship offer’. I did all this and more – I even allowed myself to express that my feelings had been real, no matter what he had (not) felt, and that a part of me still loved him it and that I had to protect this loving part, that ability to love within myself, and that’s why I had to let go and get back to no contact. He replied to that it was probably the same for him (that a part of him loved me) and that this was the reason why he didn’t want to loose me completely, and couldn’t let go. This was why he wanted us be friends. I declined and told him that I simply could not trust a person who had let me down the way he had, when I needed him most… that we had both destroyed all grounds for trust. He said: “But I thought that me might rebuild this with time and care, but of course that doesn’t work over the phone…” (My defences almost broke down at this point but I forced myself to stay real, remembered myself of the many betrayals, rejections and subtle and not-so-subtle cycles of discard he had put me through and managed to stuck to my guns. I simply said: “I don’t want to be ‘the other woman’ – I am simply not designed for that role, I am too proud, too fierce and I have too much to offer. I don’t want to me part of your strange web of ex, current, in-between and future targets: do as you please, but that is not for me. I am not that kind of woman! Especially I will never again allow any man to triangulate me and pit me against another woman. That wasn’t me, that’s you. I am not a beautiful puppet or object that you can put back and forth on the shelf according to your needs, dust off sometimes but then abandon it again when you get bored and have temporarily found a different play-thing. I am much more than that. Finally, I will not surround myself with anyone who is not able or willing to love and cherish me.
These have always been and still are my standards and I will never back away from that again. You know I am stubborn and straight when push comes to shove, I made the mistake with you and dropped those standards, but that left me shattered, depleted and miserable. So I won’t ever drop them again. I gave you many many chances but you didn’t take any of them. I offered you more than to any man before but you withdrew. There was a point where we could have built up something precious but you disappeared with no explanation whatsoever. I’ve always told you that I NEVER pursue any man, EVER. You are no exception, so I was gone when you let me slip away. You knew that would happen and you did nothing to prevent it, so it DID happen. I will never take the ‘other woman/friendship crumbs’ and you know that as well. Instead, I am working on myself and moving on, on my path of life. Whoever shares my values and respects me is warmly invited to join me and walk with me as a friend or lover or partner. But all negative energy is banned from my life.”
Interestingly, he respected that: “You are probably right. I don’t want to force a friendship upon you that doesn’t feel right for you (sic!). I guess it is part of my grieving process to accept that. I am very sad to loose you but I wish you farewell.” He repeated the “farewell” and “take-care” at least five times. His voice was desperate and fading, it was as if he’d cling to those very last words. I had the feeling he wanted to cry. My last words were: “I too wish you the very best. Know that I will only remember the beautiful times we shared, the bad times, I let them all go. I hope that you will find peace and happiness, but I can not be a part of your world anymore. I have to focus on myself and my own healing and happiness. Please remember all the good, loving things I said to you during this phone conversation. Keep those loving words of mine in your heart if that helps. You have a special place in my heart as well. And now, please release me, and let me go.”
The phone conversation went well (from an objektive point of view). I had many hard weeks dealing with the aftermath though (now it’s REALLY over and I won’t ever be in touch with him again). But I know it is worth it. Because I can be true to myself again. Someone who forces me to burn myself in the fire to keep his flame alive is not someone who loves or cares for me. I have to care for myself.
I hope that will help you a little bit down the road Nikita.
If you don’t want to be ‘that kind of woman’, read here (an ode to every woman):
http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/im-not-that-woman-an-ode-for-every-woman-who-has-loved-lost-and-forgotten-her-value/
Lots of love & good luck! 😘
@malignarc: thanks for allowing me the sharing of all those external links! That is mich appreciated.
About l•o•v•e:
http://www.elephantjournal.com/2015/02/i-want-to-know-you/
I so ♥️ this article! 😊
Wow… I feel I have told words for words what you have told him. Only I came back the day after. To escape again and come back again. That felt good to read that someone else has had the same thoughts and words.
@On my Journey, Thanks for your comment! I am glad my words resonnated with you:-) It’s now been 3.5 years since the beginning of the end with the N formerly in my life, but I can honestly say that I’ve only cleared him out of my system about 8 months ago (after I last saw him). Ever since, no emotional charge whatsoever! Finally over it:-))
Interestingly, I met someone in late 2016 who reminded me sooo much of the N – or of a better / kinder version of him – that I got entangled with that man for a while. After all the ‘narc-diggin” I had done over the previous years, I knew that ‘too good to me true’ usually meant ‘not true!’, so after a couple of months of confusion, I backed off timely enough to protect myself. There was some hoovering on his part but always in a kind and polite was (“Baroness, how are you? Will I have the pleasure to meet you at this conference in Copenhaguen?”)
Still, my gut told me that something was off with this guy. There were all these appealing features snd qualities (tall, elegant, well-read, successful, independed-minded, intelligent, multilingual & mulicultural, adventureous, another taveler and very affectionate when *there*), but…. not reliable, not consistent, totally detached when ‘out of sight’… all of whiçh does not prove a narcissist, but:
• what about those sudden mood swings within seconds for no apparent reason, right there in the middle of a meeting/rendez-vous?
• why would he spoil things when everything had just been so great and beautifully intimate (and I am not even speaking of physical intimacy here)?
• why would he go from totally ignoring me to courting me/being all around and all over me within hours, especially when I stayed distant,
• why would he promise me all sorts of things, especially in the form of beautiful, well-crafted love letters, which would never materialise in real life?
• why would he play hot and cold and ‘punish’ me for having shared too much intimacy?
• why would he back off every time we got closer or more serious?
• why would he use a façade to be successful in business? Why is it near-impossible to grasp the real person behind that façade?
Just too many reminders of the ‘original narc’ who had almost wrecked my life, health and peace of mind a couple of years ago! Too many red flags!!
I called it a quit and backed off after some ‘testing’ on whether his actions met his words. Sometimes they did, but mostly not quite – or not at all.
Up to this date, I still do not know for sure if this guy is a narc or not. With A, I have no doubt whatsoever! With S, I just don’t know. All I know is that something is off, that some of vis stories and behaviours rang a bell / a taste of bad memories with A in my entire body, and thst I fell really ill physically after our last two meetings. So I decided to just let him fade away, whichbwas essy since this man, once again, does not live in the same country (another red flag;-)).
So you see that I am not stronger or wiser that anybody else here, but on a journey just as you and all the others in this community! It’s a looong and windy journey, but it’s worth to take the long way home. Many other ressources helped me so much on this journey, and I am glad to hear that you too are healing and moving forward! Keep on keepin’ on:-))
x Alice
I have the opposite effect. He interrogates me if I do not answer within 5 minutes of a text/call.
And his answers were just like reading your article 😡. “We have such a good and nice time together, so why does this have to mean you throw everything away now” … Very sick
@Nikita: “We have such a good and nice time together, so why does this have to mean you throw everything away now” …
This is what the narc in my life used to tell me as well, VERBATIM!
This article falls right to the point. I just left him because of spending time showing tourists around and chatting with them via text. This is enough reason to leave a relation. A relationship is to dedicate time and attention to the partner and not just to every attracive female walking by.
Glad you found it on point. How long ago did you leave him and what has he done since?