In the Middle
I had a consultation with Dr O. She looked as clean and inviting as ever. I am sat across the room from her but the scent of cleanliness is discernible. I bet if I tasted her she would taste clean. Her clothes are immaculate, her hair shiny and held in a ponytail and I can see her nails are clear yet manicured. The quality of her skin reminds me of someone I knew long ago. I imagine she attends to a vigorous regime of diet, exercise and skin care to ensure that her healthy, soft looking skin remains so inviting for me. Dr O was engaged in discussing my behaviour.
“What do you think of this statement?” she began, “Your behaviour is repetitive. You draw people to you, you hurt them and then you cast them aside only to draw them in again.”
I waited as I considered this comment.
“Before I answer, I would like to add a caveat,” I remarked.
“Perhaps you could answer it without the caveat. It will keep it simpler.”
“But it is important you understand the context of my response.”
“How about you answer the question first and then you can add your caveat?” she offered.
I reflected on this. It would undoubtedly please her if I did this. By pleasing her she will feel drawn to me.
“Fair enough. That statement is accurate, although,” I answered.
She held up her hand. I would usually plough on, after all, who on earth is entitled to stop me when I am talking? I still felt that by indulging her, it would benefit me.
“Thank you. How do you feel about this statement? You are stuck in this behaviour.”
She had followed-up with a further question, when she said to me that she would allow me to add a caveat. She misled me. I did as she agreed and now she has reneged on that arrangement. I was not pleased. I could feel the anger rising inside. I knew why she had done this. She wanted me to feel small. This is what they all did, just like her. They try to make me feel small and helpless and useless and pathetic and contemptible. I could feel my grip on the situation loosening. There was a sensation of falling as I tried to reach out and grasp my surroundings, but they shifted and moved, spilling through my hands. I could sense the yawning chasm waiting to engulf me, that place of those lost emotions which I fight on a daily basis. They were rising up to haul me into the chasm. They wanted to surround me and consume me. I can hear her voice drifting up from below, echoing and distant yet somehow clear. That ghostly voice from long ago that lurks in the chasm and becomes unleashed when moments like this happen. I can hear the words, the scolding, the criticising, the demeaning words spilling from that cruel gash of a mouth. Please stop it. Please,please,please.
“Yes, I feel stuck. I am stuck with her,” I suddenly said, the words coming out in a forced and breathless manner. Was Dr O in the room any longer? I could not be sure, she seemed to have become blurred as if she had melted into the surroundings.
“I am stuck listening to the unfair and unjust criticisms of everything that I do. I try and move forward, I try each and every day, by trying to extinguish her accusing voice, by finding those who will praise me so that their words will stop her from bringing me down. I have to surround myself with those who can help me diminish and then extinguish her, they are necessary in order to help me survive. I turn to others so that their voices will drown hers out, the kind words, the adoration. I have to have it in order to stop her. Even the screaming and the tear-filled sobbing and the shouting, that is preferable to hearing that woman and her acidic tongue. Sometimes it works for a time, her voice is lost amongst the cacophony of others but she always comes back. Why? What did I do to deserve this? I cannot get rid of her. Even when I think, this time she has been silenced, she somehow surfaces. I cannot stand it. Why do you do this to me? I never did anything to you did I? I just wanted you to tell me what I had done was good, that I got your approval, but you never would would you? I didn’t hurt you, I tried my hardest for you, but you always said I could do better, I could improve, I could go higher. I just wanted to please you, was that so bad? Tell me what I have to do, please? I just want it to stop, I want to be good, I always told you that, but you said I was bad for not doing what you wanted, but I did do what you wanted, you always changed it just as I seemed to be getting closer. Please, I want you to go now and stop hurting me, why are you still doing it, have you not had enough? Stop, please stop, I want you to stop, I want it to stop, I don’t want it anymore, I don’t want to be stuck anymore, I don’t want to be stuck in the middle of this any more, I don’t want to be stuck…in the…middle….with…you.”
I can no longer breathe and my words cannot surface any longer. My chest is tight and the air, the air is being stolen from my lungs now, the floor is moving and shifting. I can hear something but cannot make out what is being said, it is like a roaring. My hands are raking the air as if fighting off unseen attackers but they seem to move so slowly. Dr O comes into brief focus as she is moving across the room towards me. I am falling and the floor is coming up to greet me as the darkness takes me. The all encompassing darkness engulfs me as I hear,
“You’ve let me down again.”
Then there is nothing.
130 thoughts on “In the Middle”
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HG this post is AMAZING. It takes a lot of courage to expose yourself like this. I have read all your books and blog entries and my favorite parts are when you talk about your childhood, your mother and the creature. It is one thing to read a statement that says childhood trauma causes narcissism and another thing entirely to read about times when you are a young boy were treated with unbelievable cruelty by the person you was supposed to protect you. I am tearing up just reading about it. I can’t imagine what that must have been like growing up with her. I would have become a narc too.
My gut feeling is that this is nothing more than a pity play. He may be mining the empathy. It just seems rather o.t.t and melodramatic. He would have got an Oscar if he gave that performance ( in the 1940’s). But that’s just my opinion.
I completely agree with you, Clarece.
Bonding between mother and child is a key point for future adult life. It establishes the “existense”, self-esteem, acceptance, certain emotions. Unfortunately for many of us, it is too late. Damage has done already. Wounds are deep and they bleed from time to time. It is very hard to keep them closed and continue to live. It is a constant war.
I guess, there are 2 possible ways for our healing:
1. Mother’s full and deep understanding of what she has done to her child and then sincere, really sincere apology to her child. Cathartic apology. But that isn’t going to happen. As I can see, Tudor’s mother, my own mother, many people’s mothers will never do it, because they are heavily damaged either. They believe that is nothing wrong with them. To heal us, they have to understand their own problems deeply and heal themselves first. Impossible way for many of us. They won’t do that. We’ll never get their healing apology.
2. To beat the “she”. Thank goodess (irony), unhealthy mother’s behaviour creates the “she” inside of us. We deal with this “she” for the rest of our lives. Physical presence of real mother doesn’t matter anymore. She reached her goal, she “implanted” her “she” in our heads and this is her control instrument. Our heads are the battlefield from then, not this mortal woman who is sitting across you in the chair and berating you for something. Real mother doesn’t matter anymore. “She” does. We have to deal with “she” to be free from her control.
Meeting the “she” is very crucial moment. Painful. So, when I read this post, it hit the home.
It evoked my own memories and how I dealt with my own “she” and other “demons”.
And of course, it evoked my profound desire to help, to say words of support. I know, my words sounded harsh, but phrases “Oh, dear, I know what you mean. I’m so sorry! I feel bad for you. How could she be so cruel to such wonderful child! You aren’t alone! Big hugs!” are meaningles. They are mere “painkillers”. I’m capable to give those “painkillers” to people, but I prefer not to do it. Better to deal with painful causes and get the real help, then express empty “condolences”.
Anyway, we all have no choice. We have to fight. And win.
It was pleasure to hear from you, Clarece. Have a good day!
“YOU’ve let ME down again…”
That was the last phrase “she” said to you. Control shot.
“Why on earth MY own faults let YOU down? MY faults can let ME down, but NOT you. If you think otherwise, that’s mean YOU’ve always been DOWN… You are afraid to admit it to yourself, so you project it on me, you blame me for that. I’ve never let you down. It wasn’t me (or other people) who did it to you. You’ve always been DOWN. Why is that? Well, it is your problem, not mine. Deal with it. And at next time you decide to say this phrase to me again, always remember that I know that saying it you confirm your own weakness, your own fault, your own “down”. You are the victim, not me. Deal with it. Good bye, “she”. It was “pleasure” to know you”.
Whoever is your “she”, she is pathetic and weak person, Tudor. “She” deceived you to get control upon you. “She” leeches your energy and, for the sake of survival, you have to steal the evergy from someone else. Vicious cycle. Beat “she” on her own field. Stop to feed “she”. “She” will die. You’ll be free.
Good luck.
Unfortunately, “She” equates to Mother for so many of these people. Not all. But a lot. All paths seem to always lead me back to early attachment and bonding established between baby and primary caregiver (typically mother). Mirroring actually begins with babies reading the faces of those who take care of them and making eye contact. Becoming in sync with mirroring movement and picking up on non-verbal cues is learned. Trust is built by the mother meeting the needs and being in sync with her baby thus creating an environment of safety and love.
If this doesn’t happen, and the parent is emotionally shut-down and does not mirror and affirm its child’s emotions, creates the core wound of abandonment and alienation. The result, the child internalizes that something must be defective and wrong with them and they lose touch with their authentic self. The parent is overwhelmed by the child triggering their own repressed emotions and becomes a taker rather than a giver to their child. Already so much damage that can happen in the first year of life, when a baby is absolutely helpless.
How to learn to bridge that link to learn to trust so that the cycle can stop and healing can happen…?
Bloody hell… You did it, HG…
You were there… You were THERE! I can’t find the suitable words to express what I feel… Amazing…
You know, I was there too. Twice.
First time was the “accident”. I was so scared. I escaped from there, because I couldn’t stand the pain. But I felt that I need to come back. It was the matter of survival, sanity, happiness.
And I went there again (intentionally) and let it happen to the end. It was hard. Really hard. I found myself lying on the floor in my room at the next morning. I don’t know for how many hours I was unconscious. Every muscle of my body ached. I remembered everything what was going on there. Every painful detail.
I looked at the mirror and saw the pale girl with disheveled hair and dark purple circles under her eyes. But her eyes…they were smiling and shining! I realized that I won. I was free.
Don’t give up, Tudor. For god’s sake, just don’t give up.
“If you are afraid of something, befriend it, and you’ll see another world…” Be happy.
Wow…I am speechless and moved. I don’t know what else to say?
HG…I just read this again. I think you can overcome the prison of narcissism and reclaim the loving, giving, open soul you think you jettisoned but who is still there, in hiding because he was driven into it because of your mother’s cruelty. It won’t be easy but if it’s something you want (and I think a part of you does), I think you can get there. I don’t believe people who insist NPD’s are all hopeless and have no souls left. This post proves that is not so.
As someone with BPD, I’m facing something similar in therapy right now. I’m trying to not avoid the void inside caused by my own mother’s emotional abandonment . (I actually no longer fit the BPD criteria but I still have CPTSD and a long way to go).
Luckyotter
❤️❤️❤️❤️ . Good luck in your recovery journey.
All I know is … I’m glad THE ASSHOLE in my life is GONE.. and I’m Not going to allow that to happen again .. a REAL relationship is better than an ILLUSION.
I’m sure there are others that would agree with me with that one !
Hg Tudor doesn’t have to fuel every time he is spoken too.
Ok HG you do know after all we are your fan
Ha ha thank you FA
Tick tock tick tock Doc — there is much work to be done here.
-Toujours
Your greatest tragedy is you find comfort in your tragedy .
Nikita how do you know it’s HG himself replying here personally and he doesn’t have three four admin running this
Because I don’t FA
Because I know..
as a child we do not know yet..he was a child .. but as a mature supposedly smart adult … you have the mentally .. the knowledge of what is right or wrong… if some one is belittling you in your relationship with them that is wrong… if you are being called an appliance that is wrong.. if you are being manipulated that is wrong. do i have to continue? its about choices you make. these choices are decided by no one else but you.. unless you like being manipulated and used .. then that is your choice… Nikita. does that answer your question your doubts.. you have to stand up for your self.. no body else will do that but your self.. hg and his kind is always going to keep doing it. hg knows his actions his said it many times and his knows what is right or wrong so does every one here.. but hg disregards it .. and points fingers and blames others.. take responsibilty for your actions your choices. no one is to blame for that but himself. why is my fault when him and his kind are assholes… they are assholes because they choose to be an assholes.. who is at fault for that .. themselves. i did not do that to them they decided that on their own.
why should i pat him and his kind on the back when what they are doing is wrong.. there there thank you for calling me names. there there thank you for shouting at me there there thank you for hitting me. THATS WRONG.
thank you FA
So much fuel.
you would not survive a minute in a locked room alone with out your fuel. no access to fuel. hg.. none. then that creature would eat you alive..
Maybe but that won’t happen
Hi Lil
Thanx. Yes it does. I thought you were speaking about HG as a kid.
I agree that adults are responsible for themselves.
On the other side I do not agree at all when you say that HG and his kind are assholes. First I find it disrespectful to call him like that here ( fuel for him I know) and second not all of the N kind are assholes.
It depends how you approach them and some are great people.
That is how I think…
Hi Lil One
I was just reading your comment . Totally agree with you that it’s all about HG in the end . Now and I mean NOW that you have all the understanding there is absolutely no point to discuss the past or dwell on it . And to cause hurt to anyone else. May be before you or your kind didn’t know why they were abused and why they were abusing others . But once ambiguity has been lifted then it’s all about controlling the devil inside and bring the compassion out . Since HG can stand up and defend his father in today’s date ( in reply to my comment ) that shows blaming father is all gone . If you are still blaming then it only to draw fuel and for the sake of argument or to win the argument . No one can live in past . How long one can discuss what happend. A line needs to be drawn and move on . Every parent make mistake
we can go around in circles here pointing fingers mother did this father did this uncle did that around and around it goes… but in the end hg . it is all about you.. you knew what is right or wrong did you not. did you not have the mentally to know what is right and what is wrong? you can blame every one esle.. but you could have changed things yourself from the very beginning could you have not.. its wrong to use and abuse people.. same as what your mother was doing to your father … but you could not figure that out your self? every one has a choice.. every one and i mean every one.. either you choose to be abused and accept it then when that is your choice..dont blame some one esle but your self..
you know what your doing is wrong… all of it.. but you choose to not accept your actions is wrong and you blame others for it.. and whos fault is that… who are you going to blame.. in the end.. its all about you hg and the choices you made… this makes you happy? do you not know what happy is… but you sure know your actions is wrong because you said that yourself.. you know hg.
I think some commenters are genuinely interested in ascertaining the cause of effect of who I am. Some because they see parallels with their own experience and others because they are interested in my situation.
I could not change anything from the very beginning.
I find your comment “either you choose to be abused and accept it then when that it is your choice don’t blame some else but yourself” and interesting comment. I did not choose my childhood. I had no choice at all. What was I meant to do from a very young age? Leave home and set up on my own somewhere? I will be interested to see what the reaction is of others to your suggestion that one chooses to be abused and one should accept it.
Yes I know my actions now are labelled as wrong by people who look at me from a certain perspective. From my perspective, as I have written many times, they are necessary and the end justifies the means.
Who will I blame in the end? The list is rather long.
Hi Lil
I read your comment once and thought I did not understand well and then read again and understood the same… But was still doubting… When I read HGs answer I realized I did understand correctly.
I have the same question. Are you stating that he as a kid is reaponsible for the abuse he received as a child. ?
I need a confirmation because Im stuck here. Speechless and paralyzed to think further concerning this comment.
Thanks for replying HG. By A father being lazy I was meaning emotional laziness . Not lazy in providing financially . Men can be stubborn or lazy in providing emotional comfort sometimes . Even to their kids
Understood FA. He wasn’t emotionally lazy but sometimes he seemed to realise that he was fighting a war he couldn’t win and had to operate like the French Resistance rather than a standing army.
I think like your dad…..
HG I was just reading your replies to some comments here . You are right that some people are effected by abuse to greater degree and some are to lesser degree . And I’m talking from experience . My sister is pretty normal and I turned out to be hyper sensitive and hyper emotional
Your father may be didn’t stand up for you not because he didn’t care but out of laziness may be or to keep the peace . Even loving your own child require effort . Sometime may be just couldn’t be bothered . Which is wrong . Also he was learning to be father too
You said you never confided in any partner. HG you obviously never felt safe enough with anyone to confide in them. Which we know why , when we come from such troubled back ground we fear people will use our weakness to gain advantage . And also allowing your self to be loved will not be easy. People like you are comfortable in their pain . For them pain is safe. Pain is something they have only ever known. Its familia. Happiness can be lost love can be lost which means they can be vulnerable.
I m gonna say something to you which I’m actually dying to say to my ex, lol . If people have courage to be seen how they are they ll discover something amazing , that they are actually enough. Like Thorne beautify the rose Ugly part of your kind makes you beautiful. But obviously we can only be fully seen with the right person . With the wrong person too bigger cost to pay .
Hello FA, I understand your point of view. My father was not a lazy man. He was diligent and industrious, but I appreciate that you were not aware of those facts.
Your second paragraph has some force. I am content where I am because I am effective. I know the pain but I am able, through my effectiveness to keep it at bay.
I do not recall being happy as you understand the concept but that does not cause me any concern. Not only do I not miss something that I never had, I have been furnished with something far more effective and in keeping with what I need.
You mean by accepted exactly as you are ? Which we are willing to if man has the courage to be seen
I wish he d know this
Hello HG
I was just thinking about my ex husband . That he never really had put it in to words that how does he actually want to be loved. He was or shall I say is your kind so thought you can may be put me out my misery . ?? Does your kind want to be loved and if yes How do you want to loved ?
Or does your kind actually know how they want to be loved and understood by one person ? My ex husband never opened up to me . It was only reading here that made me understand what and why things happend? I still have so many questions about him . I felt he was scared to be appreciated He never really trusted
We want to be adored and admired. Completely and totally.
It is interesting to note that this post is called ‘In the middle’ and that you recently changed your signature from ‘Malignarc’ to ‘HG Tudor.’
Very early on in our relationship, the narc that used to be in my life told me bout his father’s abusive ways and how terribly helpless and overwhelmed he felt as a child. He also told me how and when exactly he fled into ‘fantasy land’/escapism to withdraw from the feelings of shame and guilt, and how he later constructed himself a personality that was totally distinct from his father’s.
He told me many things about his childhood, and how desperate he felt then. How he decided to fight back by living a totally different, free life!
He contacted me recently, saying that he wants to see me so that we can TALK, reconciliate and both get to a peaceful inner state. I’m too hurt and scared to trust him, I know too much, there’s no way I could ever trust him again, no way I could ever step down into that rabbit hole again!
However, I dream about him every night again. He takes me in his arms, holds me and kisses me tenderly. He cried and apologizes genuinely. He says that he loves me and that he will try his best to get well, take care of himself and heal from his demons. We cry together and hold each other. It feels so good to finalen be able to talk to and feel and trust each other again! It is such a relief and all of a sudden, life is colourful and adventurous and full again!
When I awake from those dreams, the pain is so unbearable that I can hardly breathe. I guess this is because I am feeling *all* the pain and carrying *all* of the weight – his and mine.
What was your father’s role in that scenario?
What if he’d have been the abusive parent – would that have made a difference? How?
Do you mean if both my mother and father were deemed abusive or just my father. If the latter it would invariably be the same outcome mutatis mutandis.
If it invariably doesn’t matter if the abuse came from your mother or father, would it have made a difference if the non-abusing parent fought harder to defend you?
There are still the unanswered questions from a few days ago that you asked for time to think about.
They were, 1) do you think you were really born this way? And then it is up to science to figure out a way to re-connect or introduce empathy / compassion into your brain.
2) If say in a clinical setting, maybe even with hypnosis, you could re-enact the event of burning your hand and with someone role playing your mother, give you the reaction of a caring, consoling mom who let you cry to release the pain, would that release some of those horrible wounds deep inside, probably with the creature?
Why would they defend me when I have done nothing wrong or do you mean defend me from the other parent?
There is no record of me having suffered any birth trauma which may suggest a pathological basis for the way that I am but I suppose one cannot rule out being born this way. Let me turn this around though; were you born compassionate or did you learn to be that way?
I don’t know. Why would I want to cry when that would be weak? Why is it regarded as wrong for me to deal with it in my way? Is the method you suggest a recognised method of releasing this “inner pain”?
Oh I absolutely meant defend you from the other parent. Unless you were ripping heads off of cats at a young age, you needed protection and positive reinforcement.
Your next question, since I can feel and experience a full range of emotions including joy, happiness and love (not limited to just envy, hate or fury) I guess I have to say I was born that way. Then the extent on a spectrum is determined by our background as we are a product of our environments taking into consideration parenting styles, emphasis on religion, schooling, economic status, etc.
It would certainly not be weak to cry due to an extremely painful accident. It’s a natural reflex, like when a doctor taps your knee and it kicks forward or something comes close to your face suddenly and you blink. You forced a mind over matter on that one.
Your last question should really go to Dr. O or Dr. E.
Why did he not defend me from my mother? Sometimes he did not deem in necessary. Sometimes he wasn’t there. Sometimes he didn’t because either he didn’t care or he was too concerned by his wife’s reaction to risk intervening. I sometimes would hear him try to explain (he never “stood up to her” in an aggressive way) a different way of doing things, usually when he didn’t realise I or we were listening (we being me and my siblings) as he would never dare to be seen undermining her in front of us. She didn’t listen to him or rather she did but didn’t hear him if you know what I mean as she carried on regardless. She knew best you see.
Oh I get Mommie Dearest knew best. Although the mother lion failed miserably when Uncle Pete lashed out at your sister. All if a sudden she’s conveniently afraid to have that fury upon herself.
She regarded Uncle Peter’s act as entirely appropriate. He just got in first.
Excuse me while I go choke back the vomit in the back of my throat.
Extremely enlightening and thank you for sharing. A valuable insight into the extreme behaviours of someone such as yourself, many similarities with the ex.
I did hear similar accounts from him, about both parents, never good enough, no matter how hard he tried it was never good enough. The damage of this incessant degradation as a child is so apparent. Even as a successful businessman with various degrees, wealthy, the put downs continued, accusations of cheating to achieve. they will never believe otherwise, no acknowledgement, praise or pride for their child.
Have you ever confided these thoughts to any of your partners? I had many revelations and confessions and on top of everything else, even an admission of sexual abuse at a very early age (female family member) he said I was the only person he had ever revealed this to. I have no idea if that’s true, probably not? Yes, it all makes sense but it in no way absolves the disgraceful behaviour to those that care that follows, that is the part that makes no sense to me. Even now the parents continue to act in this way, he provides for them in their old age and it’s an incessant barrage of ungrateful, negative, controlling behaviour. They expect his support and financial help yet strike him down at every opportunity.
I feel sorry that you and he and others like you endured such indifference, such a lack of love and nurturing when you needed it the most, it still doesn’t justify the behaviour you display now though, you seem to take pride in actively hurting others when you know more than anyone else how awful that feels. Not everyone from a degraded, unloved childhood acts the way you do. Is it a choice? A mental disorder? Chemical imbalance in your brain? Combination of all? Whatever it is, I have pity (to a degree) but I want no part of it.
No I have not confided these thoughts with a partner lest they use this momentary and fleeting moment of weakness against me.
You are entirely correct that not everyone from a degraded,unloved childhood acts the way I do in the same way that not everyone from poverty commits crime, if they did the world would be in anarchy. Why is it then some people affected go one way and others a different way? The eternal question. I should imagine that some people have a genetic propensity to deal with trauma in a particular way. Add the trauma and some people respond x, some people y, some people z. The extent of the trauma will also have an effect sending people to xx, xy, xz and so on. Add in whether there were stabilising influence at some juncture such as a,b and c and then you get xxa, xxb, xxc, xya and you get the picture. You will then get anomalies and outliers which skew the picture and would be discounted if a controlled study (which is obviously very difficult with our kind) is undertaken as sometimes people are affected when there seems to be no issue with their upbringing and therefore the result seems odd, in the same way you can ask 100 people whether reading HG Tudor is a good thing to do, 99 will say yes and 1 awkward so and so will say no! I think there are a whole lot of factors which apply and those factors vary in”strength” so there are so many different things which go into the pot and that is why there are so many different outcomes. I think you are left being able to suggest that some things are LIKELY to cause a particular outcome but one cannot say for certain as there are always exceptions.
Yes very true HG. its also demonstrated during clinical studies of molecules on the way to be aporoved. very extremely different reactions to the same molecule, or no reaction at all..
Complicated to understand. 🙄
Thanks for the reply, yes there are so many combinations/permutations/scenarios call it what you will, there are no clear cut answers.
I’m rather surprised after reading your thoroughly enlightening writing that so much was disclosed to me, the jealousy (of literally nothing and everything), the childhood rejections, the sexual abuse, revenge taken on previous partners, law breaking, I can’t go into too much detail but one shocking incident involved paying undesirables to commit GBH and permanent damage to those that wronged him. It stuns me that so much was disclosed, how much was real and how much of it was fabricated? I have no idea, and as much I wanted to I’ve not used any of those revelations against him. I just wanted to put as much distance between myself and that ‘psycho’ as possible.
Understandable that you would want to distance yourself. The disclosures were all designed to create a picture to accord with the role you had in supplying fuel.
My ex MN before we started a relationship, lets say on the 6th date brought a list of paper with his results of psychological test they did at work.
He told me: look at it i want u to know with which boolshit u r gonna have a relationship.
One of central things there was that he got 10 out of 10 for Control. So he said he was a control freak.
I didnt pay attention coz i already was inlove.
Q: is it some sort of (mind) game of a MN with his victim?
He share it with me intentionally?
I have mentioned previously that there are sometimes early”tells” which are provided to victims. It is done to test the reaction to see if there is an adverse response or a sympathetic,compassionateor even disbelieving one(“No way can you be a control freak they must have that wrong.”) This then assists us with regards to ascertaining how susceptible you will be to control and also allows us, at a later stage to turn on your if you complain about this behaviour by saying “well I did warn you”.
Very baluable information! Thank u dear fefective person. Appreciate a lot!!
So avtually what he told me BEFORE we started a relationshop itself:
1) he is a conyrol freak
2) sometimes he has rages which he cannot control.
At that moment i was already too much in love. So i just thought “how this sweet person can have rages. May be with somebody but not with me. It s just cannot happn!, he is sooooo sweet”
But i think that he knew what he was doing. Coz i noticed he calculated reactions on his a tions for me and others.
And at the end of relationship he started speaking with himself as if i didnt exist, e.g. “may be it s a signal of god because of what i am doing with u” (he told when we were lying on the bed after he got a car accident (although in that moment i already was not able to distinguish if i should believe he had car accident or not)
Anyway a discard after that conversatiin “himsrlf with himself” came very quickly.
P.s. in general at the end on relationship i noticed he spoke with himself while i was near ax if i didnt exist. It was his special “trance” i would call it like this, moments.
Could be he had some schizophrenia as well…?
I could not say whether this person is schizophrenic either based on what you have provided (one would need more information) and also I am not in a position to ascertain that condition in somebody. Just because you talk to yourself doesn’t per se suggest schizophrenia.
😢
I am sorry HG, and if you mentionned it in one of your previous posts and I missed it I apologize. All these questions because My father was the narcissist and my mother, the sweet scared thing, I apparently chose the victim camps and ran afterwards into more narcissists until the lesson was learned. I could never help but resent my mother though for her failure to protect and remove ourselves from the poison (according to Edmund Burke “Evil occurrs… etc” and I was curious if that resenting feeling was shared by others. You still have not answered clearly to my question about your feelings for your father (maybe previously adressed or soon) even if your previous response gives a hint. Thank you for your replies and all that I learn HG 🙂
Which question about my father have I not answered clearly? Do pose it again and I shall endeavour to do so Bity.
Thank you HG. Do you think your father felt or saw the blooming narcissist in you? Did he behave the same with you as with your siblings? Actually you kind of have answered my question through your previous answers. I was wondering simply what were your feelings and reactions to your father’s behavior then.
I am sorry with the “probing”. My ex-husband (a narcissist too) was in a similar situation as yours and I could never figure out how he felt or what he thought about it all. Having the extraordinary luck of having a narcissist answering in truth makes me greedy for anwers 🙂 . Thank you
Quite alright. My father knew I was a chip off the block of my mother. I could sense that he was torn between trying to do something about it and worrying about kicking the hornet’s nest. He was never unfair to me but he did nurture my siblings to a greater extent than he did with me. He did tell me that he knew that I would always do well and they needed his help more than I did, but I think he just thought that I was a lost cause and the “dark side” as he once referred to it (about my uncle not me) had taken hold of me.
Hi HG
He was not thinking that. I am almost sure. Believe me. I know why I tell you. He was in a special positiom which made him show more care to your siblings but he loved you all the same. ❤️
When your father had talked to you about knowing you would succeed but your siblings needed more, did you speak up and say, “I need more too even if it doesn’t show”, or did you listen being an obedient child?
I agreed with him. I am the pioneer, they were trailing in my wake.
❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️🌔 You are the pioneer.
Although true, I am sure, he had to have known you deeply suffered at your mother’s viciousness deep down.
Hi Clarence
On the contrary to you I disagree. It would have taken HGs dad to have all this structured knowledge on NPD and what it means to have realized that HG suffered.
Well his dad knew enough to get in with some encouraging positive reinforcement at the graduation dinner when Mum went to make the necessary phone calls. No he didn’t have the resources to have had this extensive knowledge but he actually lived in the house day to day. Everyone has a gut instinct and internal warning system.
Clarence yes. But how long did you endure before you realized? I was married 14 years and did not realize what really was going on with the structure I learned here. Of course I knew I was hurt, my ex has something not normal, is intensively egoistic, I cant hold this together anymore but I was far from realizing NPD.
I am pretty sure he did not know enough as to realize the extents of it. In addition he was a man and a very busy one.
Yes, though, that was my point exactly! All of us got to be here because our inner voice was telling us this can’t be right, but we did not know how emotionally manipulated we really were. H.G. was the first born and Mum dug into him the hardest as an extension if herself. For the other two Dad had a chance to position himself as more of a buffer due to intuition and not knowing NPD. H.G. probably came across as stoic although the damage was already done internally.
I giggled when you said, dad was probably busy. That holds about as much water with me as men don’t want to ask for directions when driving. You and I are equally as busy if not more so being single moms. We’re all busy and overworked. Next excuse? Lol
MLA, I was the first born to one but not to the other.
Interesting. The plot thickens! Which was the step parent then? Do you have any kind of relationship with the other bioligical parent.
Who do you think was the step parent?
I asked first…
But you want the answer from me, so you have to abide by my stipulations.
Lollll, just had flashbacks to convos with JN! Good times! I shall think on it and let u know.
Clarence what is the point here. To state that HGs dad recognized his emotional needs and sufferement and ignored it??
Sorry but you dont have basis to state that and yes me and you as working single mums undortunately sometimes certainly fail to see emotional needs in our kids and we dont even know about it.
I terms of meeting emotional needs HGs dad was a “single dad” and if HG presented himself as the strongest and the father probably was busy or for whatever reason did not really realize what was going on.
And infact it seems that dad did not see or acknoweledge the emotional coldness of his wife as damaging.
It can take years before someone realizes.
My point was simply dad knew something didn’t feel “right”. I speculated the other day, that possibly dad suffered silently with his wife to still be a constant presence for the children rather than part time or not at all if an ugly separation ensued. I do believe he felt protective towards the kids when he could. You can take from that whatever you decide.
My comment about us being busy moms was most certainly not a comment about us not meeting our kids emotional needs. It simply is lame to me for that to be reason to let a dad off the hook. Sorry that you missed that.
When I said about us it was just to make a similarity to show thag things just slip from a parent when you are single parent.
Of course we as parents are obliged to recognize abuse and do something about it, but I just believe if his dad did not do it, it was not because of lack of love. And besides what we started discussing was that dad gave more comsolatiom to the other two rather than to HG and my input there was that even if that happened it was certainly not because he loved him less or the other two more. When you have more than one child its difficult to slice the cake equally all the time but the love is the same.
Hi BR
I had the same set up as you but I resent nothing. None of us resent anything. We had a very good N father.
Hi,
So we’ve spoken a few times on Facebook. As you know, I have read many of your books and am fascinated by how you are.
I have been working my way through your blog posts. I have to say this is the first time I’ve ever seen you show vulnerability . You’re a human, you were a child once, you’re still that child, you’re just taller and jaded.
I don’t believe that this is permanent . Not necessarily. I think you feel things deeper than you let ok. I find it hard to accept that you never felt anything like we do and if you felt it once you can feel it again. Perhaps you need to protect yourself from that feeling which you describe above so much, that your narcissism is your wall. Your safety. You’re right, we are weak but in being weak we experience a softness that is so breathtaking and beautiful .
A part of me wondered when I read, if you were just faking it. To show some kind of break through for your program. I hope now. Either way, if it is gueniune , I’d say it’s a big step and as scary as it might be, it can’t hurt you. It won’t kill you.
I hope this hasn’t offended you. I find it amazing that you share so honestly. I think you’re brave and I think it’s never too late to change and never too late to learn to evolve . X
Hello Thingteosays and good to have you here. No offence taken with your questions. That is a valid question to ask if I faked this display in order to show some kind of breakthrough. I cannot deny that I engage in manipulative responses with the good doctors. Part of it is to gain fuel, some of it is defence, some of it is because it entertains me. If I had faked it viz a viz the doctors I would admit that to my readership. I have always maintained that I tell you all just how it is and I abide by that statement as part of the “pact” between the readers and me. Don’t think this is some ground breaking moral stance on my part, it is not, but I adopt a different dynamic with those I interact with her to those I interact with in person. I don’t know anybody here and so I have stated that I will always deliver the truth, no matter how uncomfortable or unpleasant, because you need the truth to understand and thus make your own decisions. Thus the episode described was the truth of my reactiob, but thank you for your question and comments.
I am glad. I stand by what I said though, I feel that once you were just a little boy as I was once a little girl. Innocent and capable of love, sorrow and sadness. While I am far from an expert in all matters Narc, I really feel that while you may not have seen it as a breakthrough, it was a glimpse of the you behind this wall you’ve had to build .
While I don’t see people’s hurtful behaviour as justified by a difficult childhood, I do think , to an extent we are all victims of our upbringing.
We are, as humans, pretty simple creatures and most people when presented with a certain behaviour will react with a), b) or c) as a response. Add in years of learned manipulation and negative role models, I do not find it surprising that one might build a caricature of a person to be only seen as strong and in control.
To view yourself so openly and honestly as evil to me is sad but it’s not a judgement. It appears from your posts, that this wasn’t really a choice from you, just a form of insulation .
Being an empath, I feel for you. I imagine you as a little boy and think, wouldn’t it have been good if I had been your mother, you would have been loved, encouraged, without judgment or limit and with no ulterior motive. I have 3 children. 2,7,12 . They are all full of love and smiles and generosity. Sometimes I fear for them. Because they’re so lovely, so kind, so giving. I am glad they have my partner of 4 years as a role model. He teaches them to be a little more light hearted, to make fun of oneself and to be bold and strong and “not take any shit” of course I have no idea what kind of people my kids will turn out to be, but in this case, I do beleive I’m doing the best I can and with both my partner and I, I hope we balance out their needs with love and strength. I don’t see us as weak.
When one of us is down, the others gather around and pick each other up in our different ways. We make sure we spend time together, listen to my children when their feelings are hurt and tell them when we feel some thing they have done is not ok.
We’ve experienced bullying from other children and as much as I’ve wanted to go down there and knock the other kids out, I’ve had to go and be duplomatic with an incompetent education system. I digress.
My bottom line is, I feel so many people/kids would have turned out different had they have been given the love and room to bloom as they want and need to, not as their parents think they should.
I wish there was a rewind button and someone could take it all away, if only for you to experience it, i would have been interested to know how you would have turned out…
I appreciate the sentiment in your post. I just want to fit in and this is my way of achieving that.
Hello HG
I feel your pain. My father was same always criticising very controlling always expecting from his kids what he couldn’t himself achieve always putting us down 🙁 He still the same person . I didn’t become him but I became something else . Attracted his kind
I’m sorry you had to go through this .
Thank you FA.
Typical early childhood experience of most personality disordered adults, seems to always start with their very own abuse. If you can’t beat them , join em, the narc says. It’s better to hurt than be hurt is their mentality… Screw them over before they screw you over. But while you rejoice in breaking peoples hearts, yours seems to be the most broken. You have no existence to speak of without the daily, hourly, eternally ever present need to “feel” loved (fuel). And only other people can provide it to you. Don’t you see the irony in that? It’s your way of erasing how your mother treated you, by re-enacting the emotional devastation over and over, with you in the drivers seat this time. But that voice in your head saying your worthless is still your mom and it will never change no matter how many women you destroy in the quest for your own validation and to be valued by the person who you swore really loved you, but couldn’t.
You went in to some detail about your childhood in one of your books. It was more like a matter of fact type presentation Shocking though , with your uncle, and his tyrannical ways. I was wondering if you’re going to go deeper into your real demons and describe in as expressive a fashion humanly and emotionally possible for you? Do you really really believe there is nothing wrong with you and you’re superior? Or is that what you NEED to believe to just exist? Tell us about the monster inside you, not the monster you are on the outside to others. The one that’s after you. Who is it? What is it? What does it tell you. Can you fight it? Why not?
ok. thanks
Good post Apocalipznow and all those things you mention and wish to have answered will be addressed in The Creature.
@apocalypznow: wonderful post, thank you!
The vertiginous plunge to the original truth. For what it’s worth I am sorry HG, that loss of control has to be beyond frightening and the original truth must be quite unbearable. Is that why so few narcissists seek treatment, to avoid facing this causal abyss? or are they simply not aware of it,having burried it far too deep? How do you feel about your mother toay? o you resent her? hate her? “love” her still? still want to show her how extraordinary you are? What about your father? Do you resent him for not seeing the cold monster or “love” him?
So interresting when you allow us to see the deepest realms of yourself, thank you.
I think few do so because of the lesser they maintain there is nothing wrong with them so why submit. Of us higher-functioning this advance towards the abyss is a concern and having a therapist etc bring it to the fore is too painful.
How do I feel about her? It varies. Some days I hate her. Other days I have a begrudging admiration for her. Other days I think she is brilliant. I want her to give me the acknowledgement I deserve.
As to my father, do you mean see the cold monster in my mother or me?
Thank you for these answers HG.How do you then manage your fall into the abyss? Through further wicked games? For your father I mean, seeing the cold monster in your mother. From what you had previously written he was a good and warm man, we have read about his interractions with your brother and sister (none about his interractions with you). How was he with you? Do you think he was aware his wife was a narcissist? If so, did he do anything to protect his children from her icy grip and effects? If he didn’t (or did) How do you feel about him today? Do you seek his acknowledgement and love too or only from your mother? Do you “love” him? Thank you.
He put himself in a position of having no choice but to accept the way my mother was. He loved and admired her throughout and endured her cold and heated rages because of that. He was a dichotomy really, one the hand strong for putting up with her treatment and then again weak for putting up with her treatment. I don’t think he knew she was a narcissist,not at all.
He tried to counterbalance, euphemise and mitigate her behaviour.
I cant seek his acknowledgement and love because he is dead.
❤
Rather than weak for accepting your mother the way she was, maybe it was a virtuous trait showing unconditional love. How does your mother reflect on your dad now that he is deceased? Does she reflect on him positively or negatively, especially around you and your siblings?
She repeatedly hijacks his virtue to use as her own for the purposes of control. I would not expect anything else.
Well it could be that he knew her inside and out and felt it best to keep things together so he could still be a presence and influence for you and your siblings inside the house rather than ever risk a split and lose you all part of the time and have to combat a smear campaign on top of it and damage control with you three that she would cause. He may have been a complete pillar of strength.
That is indeed one way of looking at Clarece and it has been said in similar terms.
Can i ask u: do all MNs r control freaks? (Is it “a must” to be a MN)? Thank u
Yes.
I know it did and I am glad.
I don`t know you in real life clearly, but I can safely say you are none of the things that Voice claims you are. You never were.
I wish for that Voice to be drowned out by all of your tremendous accomplishments and successes in your life. I wish for that Voice to be captured and locked away in a sound-proof cell so you never, ever have to hear it again. I wish your ears could be deaf to that noise, that awful, vicious cacophony, full of lies, contempt and jealousy.
Look at all you have accomplished despite it, despite her. Maybe in spite of it, because of her.
You are so many wonderful things, too many to list here. I know I am giving you fuel right now, but it does come from a true and genuine place inside of me. I can see, through the writing, all of what is so wonderful about you. I can cast aside the rest because the rest is simply the result of…….
I wish I could look you in the eye and say all of this to you directly. I know there is life and beauty in those eyes. They are not as dead as you`d like us all to believe.
<3
That washed over me in an awesome way.
Careful B&T…your empathy is showing😊
Actually Bethany, no it`s not.
I feel a sort of rage, to be honest, that the person attached to the Voice made HG lose his grip/footing in such a manner. It enrages me that someone would speak to him in such a manner, when I know, even without knowing him, how truly amazing he is.
The definition of empathy is the experience of understanding another person’s condition from their perspective. You place yourself in their shoes and feel what they are feeling.
I am not in HG`s shoes nor can I claim to understand how he feels.
I am simply stating that I can see how wonderful he is, how many truly positive attributed he has, despite his malignant narcissism.
I`ve said it before – I get along famously with HG`s kind. Always have and always will. You will draw your own conclusions as to why.
Thanks for the vote of confidence though, since just the other day you used your obvious psychiatric expertise to label me a narcissist. /sarcasm font.
An empathetic narcissist….Hmmm HG, would that be a first?
I can feign empathy, I cannot feel it.
An empath will have some narcissistic traits, just not strong or even moderate ones.
I am impressed that you differentiate empathy and the Empath.
I totally agree. It is not because narcs can’t feel or accept their true self or tell us that there is nothing left inside of them that there *really* isn’t. In fact, WE have the ability to feel and see and accept their true selves, even love them, despite their damage and their resistance to being loved unconditionally.
Now, who is right and who is wrong? Who is sane and who is insane? Are we the silly ones, because we are addicted to hope and love? Are they wiser than us, because they have an evil heart and no soul?
They call us crazy (in the devalue & discard phase) and we call them crazy on all those abuse forums. So, are we crazier or are they crazier?
Do we love in a better way because we insist on loving someone back to life, back to ‘healthy’, or do they love us best because they (temporarily) abduct us in a passionnate, intense and unforgettable ‘folie à deux’ experience, with life-changing sex and soul-unity moments?
What is real and what is unreal? Is reality always better than the imaginary? What will be the moments we will look back on, on our death beds? What is it they will remember or cherish or regret?
What was it you wanted from life?
This is so amazingly profound on so many levels and beautifully written. I can’t imagine not thinking of JN when i take my last breath, however fleeting because it was an all consuming crazy mad love that yielded some of the most exhilarating moments in my life which was very real for me on my side before the ugliness seeped in.
Hello HG. That was very interesting and I have a stupid question but here goes… Is your inheritance coming from your mother? My experience with all of the narcs that surround me is extreme greed (or what looks like greed but there are nastier reasons for Will playing). Especially when an inheritance is on the line. Are you the only narc in the family? 2/7 in my family are malignant narcissists. There’s always a narc waiting to turn every detail in a Will upside down in my family.
Hello Peaches, there is inheritance from my mother and also from my maternal uncle. They are both narcissists.It is, literally, a battle of wills.
From what I’ve read in your books, Uncle Pete needs a therapist’s couch as well.
My dear uncle won’t go near that couch but would rather have me on it.
Good luck with the Wills and I hope their battle of wills soon ends for you.
This was soo sad to read. 😢. Could feel your pain. Would run to give you a hug 😘… Do something that this voice would never. Had happened. 😢
Bless your heart. And you for your courage.
This is the very thing that draws empaths to Ns.
So was it your mother HG X
ANDRIA
Going back to my question the other day, if you got to re-enact the event when you were a small boy and burned your hand on the grill and got to feel a loving mother’s reaction rather than what you got, I wonder if some of these subconscious wounds could be surfaced so you could feel them and release them? It appears there are multiple, multiple scenarios to role play to do this with. You internalized everything to the point of making you a pressure cooker.
Dr. O does not want to make you feel small. She wants to provide an environment for you to feel safe and non-judged most importantly. She just wants you to trust to follow her lead.
Thank you for the observation Clarece.
I hope to still get a reply on the original post.
What was the caveat? Surprisingly I felt know empathy or compassion for you reading this. I’ve heard this sob story before and it doesn’t give anyone the right to mentally mess with someone’s mind, heart and life. There are plenty of people that grow up in horrible situations that choose to not live in their past and live their lives as good decent people. Sounds like Dr. O wasn’t buying into your machinations.
The caveat was that because of the way I am this is how I have to function and such a prejudicial observation should be set in that context.
Did u try to allow urself to be weak? Did u try to accept that it s normal. Did u try to enjoy being weak? (As one of my professors told “flip it!”) Did u try to brainstorm ” what is good in being weak” and to have at least 20 items as an answer?
Once u accept urself in a weak position it will not be damgerous zone.
Hehhe, give ot a try to be comfortable in uncomfortable zone ))
Or may be.. MNs r really that ill?
that they literraly not able to let themselves to be small, vulnerable, without power and still love themselves
Is it possible that they r just disable (like people who do not have legs cannot walk, and with MNcs is the same story? )
P.s. is it a permanent disability or it can be temporal?
It is not a disability.
The condition is however permanent.
So if it is not a disability, it means u r able? U r able to love urself and feel ok with ur self when u r weak?
It s either ..or..
Or disable or able
The weakness is not my fault though is it?
Hahha i feel a smell of mind games))))
This brought me to tears!!! I did not see the man that was sitting there struggling to be free! I saw a small boy, always doing and being the very best he could be trying to get some approval some recognition from the one person who should of been praising him all along! I could see the hurt on your little face as you were so proud and so sure thatthis time ,this time she would be proud of you. That this time she would hold you in her arms and tell you what a great job you did and how wonderful you are and how very proud she is of you! But just like all the other times she made you feel like you left her down that you could of done better that you were a disappointment! I can see the hurt in that boys face and feel the pain in his heart! But you see dear HG you were not the disappointment she was!!! Xxx
*i came out of her body
Well I know which “her” I’m stuck with & I know what I did to deserve it (I came out of my body, although according to my father, a vacation in Puerto Rico & a lot of rum is the ultimate cause of that) and as much of a pain in my ass as she is, she won’t live forever (my sisters and I have a pact about that, lol).
I’m so sorry, HG … Can literally feel your pain. Words fail me at the moment… Am truly very sorry you suffered so. : (