Hoover Time ! Sphere One
There are many different hoovers but the ones which attract the most attention are those which take place post discard or post escape, namely the Initial Grand Hoover which is the bombardment which follows you escape in order to drag you back into our world or the Follow-Up Hoovers (either Benign of Malign) which take place later and happen irrespective of whether the method of cessation of the Formal Relationship was your escape or our discard.
The Initial Grand Hoover is the most concentrated post escape hoover and its efficacy depends on the type of narcissist you are dealing with and the defences you have created as part of instigating no contact. If there has been no IGH owing to Discard or the relevant factors have not caused on to happen post escape, then it is the Follow-Up Hoover (“FUH”) which is often discussed by victims because that is the one which is most feared, the one which is most expected and most recognised. In some instances, it is even the case that this hoover is actually wanted by the victim for reasons I have expounded previously. The fascination with the FUH is such that people wonder when it is going to happen, how it will happen, will it happen at all, will it happen many times and so forth. I always explain that whether a FUH takes place is primarily determined by whether you have entered one of the six spheres of influence. The first five are entered by you doing something or being in a particular place. The sixth is when you just happen to pop up in our mind for whatever reason. However, the fact that you have entered the relevant sphere of influence is not the only deciding factor as to whether the FUH will take place. There always has to have been an appearance in a sphere of influence for the FUH to be triggered. Whether it is then executed against you depends on other factors. Those factors are as follows: –
- The narcissist’s current fuel supplies;
- Did you escape or is that you were discarded;
- The manner of this escape or discard;
- The ease of contact with you;
- The nature of the fuel to be obtained;
- Potential obstacles.
- The type of narcissist you are involved with.
These factors have differing applicability subject to the school of narcissist that you have been entangled with.
How then does our kind approach the prospective hoover? I shall explain what (if anything) goes through our minds, what we consider and how we might go about it by reference to each of the schools of narcissism (Lesser, Mid-Range and the Greater) and by reference to each sphere of influence.
Accordingly, the first sphere is the one where you are physically proximate to you. This is where you are within earshot of us and we are able to get near enough to you to talk to you and see your reactions. It might be the case that you have called around to see us for whatever reason, you may have to interact with us at a school event where our children attended or you may be in a bar or restaurant that we have walked into or vice versa. What is our response?
- The Lesser Narcissist
The Lesser is not going to turn this opportunity down when it is presented on a plate for him. If his fuel supplies are good, for instance he has a new primary source and/or he is fuelled from supplementary sources this will increase his energy level to hoover you. If his fuel supplies are low (he has not yet secured a new primary source and supplementary sources are low functioning for him) he will still seek to hoover because this is much needed fuel. The fuel levels will affect the type of hoover. Higher fuel levels are more likely to lead to a benign hoover, lower to a malign hoover. This is because the Lesser will not have the energy to charm but rather needs a quick fix when those fuel levels are low. Furthermore, the fact he has no primary source in place yet will of course be your fault because you escaped (a narcissist will not discard without an alternative being available).
If you were discarded, he is not going to ignore the opportunity and if you escaped he will certainly not ignore this opportunity. There is a score to settle and if you escaped this also increases the likelihood of the FUH being malign.
The manner of your escape or discard does not matter to the Lesser, he will not be considering this as he is like a ravenous beast who has just seen a fresh piece of meat placed in reach. He is not considering whether the meat might trigger a trap or be poisoned, all he knows is that he is hungry for that juicy flesh again.
The ease of contact is also not something that the Lesser is bothered about. You are in front of him, that is all that matters. It does not matter who is there or where this proximate contact takes place the fact is you are there in front of him, tempting and inviting. This appearance overrides such considerations.
The nature of fuel is not a major concern either to the lesser in such a situation. Once again he just knows there is fuel available and he wants it. He does not concern himself with how much you used to provide, how potent it was, whether you will still yield this fuel or not, all he knows is that he is going to feel far more powerful by interacting with you. Remember the Lesser is not aware of what fuel is, how it governs him, all he knows is that when he upsets you, makes you smile, makes you praise him and so on he feels so much better. That is the dominant thought running through his mind. He is not concerning himself with whether he is going to secure the resumption of the Formal Relationship with you. That may or may not happen. That is like asking the ravenous beast whether he is going to eat five or six carcasses. He does not know or care. He just wants to sink his teeth into the first one and then go from there.
Potential obstacles do not cross his mind either. The risk of being rejected is not a consideration, the potential for wounding will not cross his mind because you are there in front of him. Remember, the Lesser has very little self-control and he is chomping at the bit to interact with you.
The Lesser will immediately stop what he is doing and make a bee-line for you and launch into a hoover. The only consideration with a Lesser who sees you in the first sphere of influence is whether this hoover will be malign or benign in nature. He will have no regard to his surroundings as he will adopt tunnel vision as his you his prey is presented square in his sights. He will either bound over with puppy dog eyes and slavering tongue or pounce on you with snarls and teeth bared. You will always be hoovered by a Lesser in the first sphere.
- The Mid-Ranger
The effect of the fuel supplies with a Mid-Ranger are reversed compared to that of a Lesser. If the Mid-Ranger has high fuel supplies (he has a new primary source) he is likely to be malign because he will not be able to resist bragging about his new girlfriend/fiancée/wife etc. in order to provoke a jealous reaction. He will also comment about how much happier he is and how he is better off without you. If his fuel levels are lower (no primary source yet found or it is not performing) he will present in a more pitiful manner and therefore will be benign. He will sign your praises, explain how much he misses you, how empty life is without you and so forth in a bid to draw positive fuel from you and draw you back into the Formal Relationship. By appearing in front of him he cannot forego this opportunity to take centre stage in his own pity play and hoover you.
If you escaped expect the pity to increase. If you were discarded expect the nature of the hoover to be arrogant. The nature of cessation and also its manner will have an aggravating or diminishing factor on the effect caused by the nature of the fuel supplies. The influence of the fuel is greater than the effect of the cessation and how it occurred.
By way of example, if the Mid Ranger has high fuel levels and you escaped, he will be boastful but at the back of his mind he knows you escaped him and he is alive to that fact now. His comments will be passive aggressive in nature,
“Yes well you did what you did but it is okay I forgive you because I have Jessica now.”
If the Mid Ranger has high fuel levels and he discarded you he will extoll the virtues of his new supply without any restraint, singing her praises in order to try to upset you.
If the Mid Ranger has low fuel levels and discarded you, his pity will still be the overwhelming consideration but he will exhibit contrition, as the fact of the discard will temper the contrition somewhat.
If the Mid Ranger has low fuel levels and you escaped, the pity will flow like a river and it was all your fault, you were awful to him and how could you do that to someone like him?
In terms of the ease of contact, since you are in the Mid-Ranger’s close proximity he is not going to pass this opportunity up and therefore, subject to the other considerations, the ease of contact will increase the likelihood of a hoover.
With regard to the nature of the fuel the Mid-Range will be a little more circumspect. Whereas the Lesser will just see prey and bound towards it to nuzzle it or devour it, the Mid-Ranger will exhibit some evaluation of whether the fuel provision will be good or not. If he is able to note that you are still numbed form the encounter with him and therefore less likely to provide potent fuel, he will still hoover (because you are there) but he will not expend a lot of energy in doing so. The conversation will be brief. If he recalls how excellent your fuel was and sees no reason for this to have changed then he will latch on to you for a good feed of fuel.
In respect of obstacles, the Mid-Ranger will have some regard to them. If he perceives that you are going to wound him again or humiliate him (perhaps you are with friends or a new partner) he will still attempt the hoover but the engagement will be brief. If there are no obstacles and subject to the other considerations detailed above, he will hoover you and either be pleasant yet pitiful in order to draw you back in or exhibit arrogance in order to draw negative fuel and lay down a marker in the hope of causing you to feel upset and dismayed you are no longer with him (thus priming you for a different kind of follow-up hoover after this initial skirmish).
The Mid-Ranger will always hoover when you appear in the first sphere. The main considerations are the type of FUH and how sustained it will be.
- The Greater
What then of the Greater?
If fuel levels are high then expect a charming hoover which will be a combination of praising you, declaring how well you look, him showing off about his latest achievements, discussing his new car or new paper that he written. He is feeling powerful but also generous with it. You can share in his grandiosity. The Greater will flirt with you even if the new primary source is there. This is too good an opportunity to miss to draw fuel from two sources and copious amounts of it.
If fuel levels are low the Greater will actually be wary. This is because he knows that there is a risk that he will be wounded (see the other considerations) and therefore he is mindful, owing to his awareness, that significant damage might be done to him. He will therefore evaluate the situation carefully before proceeding.
If you were discarded and fuel levels are high, the ebullience of the Greater will override any potential adverse reaction you might exhibit. On the contrary he will think that you will be so delighted to see him that you will fall into his arms in an instant under another dose of concentrated magnetism and charisma.
If you escaped and fuel levels are high, the Greater will relish the opportunity to draw you back in and settle a score not by lashing out but by winning you over again to prove how masterful and commanding he is.
If fuel levels are low and you were discarded, the Greater will sense that fuel remains available and he will approach. If you were discarded with no explanation he knows that if you are angry about the manner of the discard, then he gains fuel. If you are upset about the manner of the discard he gains fuel. If you discarded with some kind of good-bye he knows that you will still hold out hope for the resumption of the Formal Relationship and therefore he will approach and hoover, being cautiously charming and respectful.
If fuel levels are low and you escaped, the Greater will be very wary that you may deal with him in a manner which will wound. He will carefully evaluate the situation. At this juncture he does not have the energy levels to seduce you but he sees an opportunity for fuel on his doorstep, therefore in this situation he will not be looking to charm you (that is more likely to happen on another occasion). Instead he will look to provoke a negative reaction from and lash out at you to shock, upset or anger you. This will be a vitriolic and savage verbal assault aimed at stunning you with is sudden ferocity in order to draw a concentrated burst of negative fuel which will sustain him and allow him to take delight in what he has achieved without further risk to himself.
The ease of contact is straight forward. You are there before him.
The Greater is the best at evaluating the likely fuel to be provided. He will know if you are likely to fountain with fuel and therefore you will prove extremely tempting. It just depends on whether he ought to press the buttons for positive fuel (see considerations above) or to opt for negative as just described. He will also be able to sense if fuel provision is likely to be low (for instance you are adopting low/no fuel techniques or your levels are low owing to the emotional state you are in). He will factor this likely level of reward into determining what he will do. The Greater is more likely to draw fuel (even if levels are low) from you, given his expertise and it is a question of whether it is positive or negative.
The Greater will also take into careful account any potential obstacles before making his move. He will handle any challenge from friends or a new boyfriend for example with ease if his fuel levels are high, by charming and deflecting any attempts to do him down. If fuel levels are low, he will look to draw negative fuel form your supporters as well in a similar way as he will from you with a short, sharp shock.
The Greater will assess the situation before making his move. He will either sweep in full of charm, effusive praise and grandiosity, sweeping you off your feet or slide a knife between your ribs, sink his teeth into your neck and bludgeon those accompanying you before darting away in a smash and grab of negative fuel.
For all three schools your physical presence is too much to resist and you will be hoovered. What is affected is the manner, duration and type of FUH you are subjected to. Accordingly, you should be aware that if you make yourself directly physically available to your narcissist you will be hovered.
81 thoughts on “Hoover Time ! Sphere One”
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i was seeing a guy who after a few months of love bombing ended it when i called him out for being lazy re arranging to see me. he did the slow fade and then left it up to me to end the relationship…the first time i had no idea that he might be a narc so i felt responsible…after 3 weeks of NC i contacted him and he said he loved me etc etc and the love bombing started over ..although interestingly he talked as if the ending was my decision and not his …wtf! (he ignored me for days and barely communicated with me – i gave him countless chances to tell me not to leave relationship etc) during the time that we were separated he posted a girl appeared in the newsfeed of a girl we both know in a photo with her! and he also appeared in several of our mutual friends feeds (i had blocked him so i wouldn’t see his feed only our mutual friends).
Anyway we got back together and again super intense treat me like a princess full of love and alway hugging me and kissing me and telling me how attractive i am etc etc then after an amazing weekend i confronted him about why he never included me in his social media posts..(we have been together for 5 months and he is super full on) his reaction was completely over the top and he tried to make me feel like a nag etc even telling me ”that if there wasn’t love he would tell me to do one!” he gave me loads of excuses that made no sense whatsover..i said it wasn’t working out and was prepared to leave but also doubted myself and started to try and resolve …he at first seemed open to this and then just disappeared mid conversation!! wtf – i haven’t heard from him since!!! i sent one more email saying i took his silence as the end etc and i was happy to leave it at that (he didn’t reply) and that was three weeks ago. i have zero interest in contacting him but i would like to know if he is likely to contact me or if you think i have escaped??
He was very loving/attentive in the relationship but was becoming increasingly defensive and would bamboozle me if challenged.
What do you think?
Thanks
Nat
So if someone is discarded, enters that first sphere (narc standing behind discardee in a line, nobody else but the clerk around) and narc acts for the entire 5 minutes as if the discardee doesn’t exist, is the discardee forever free from potential Hoover?
Narc uses sympathy to get people to connect with him because he’s not a very pleasant person to be around, he can only fake it for short periods of time. He had been a virtual hermit for a year before I had the misfortune to tangle with him.
He has convinced others he’s being stalked by the discardee, and seems to have now convinced himself of this. It gained him a huge social circle and tons of flying monkeys, although I suspect that’s wearing thin.
So is he now so angry/scared/invested in this story that he can’t risk backing away from it?
Have I stumbled onto foolproof narc repellant?
Because I have never once had a relationship that hasn’t involved a lengthy and exhausting Hoover campaign, but this wasn’t really a relationship, he was likely trying to use me, for what who knows because that didn’t go well for him, perhaps that’s why I was discarded so quickly and in such a nasty and thorough manner.
He’s the meanest narc I’ve had the misfortune to meet. After being married for 22 years, this whole single thing is confusing enough, I’m trying to learn how to recognize a narc’s approach so I can run for the hills. I’ve dealt with all the past narcs…. there’s just this one left that has never tried to Hoover. I really want to move on with my narc-free life but there is that lingering fear.
Surely there are some outliers, right? Some that are never Hoovered because they were so utterly useless?
Sorry I keep bombarding you. I just read one of your blogs in which you gave examples of your lack of regret & it sparked my interest.
For example, “she was late so I had the right to leave and let her find her own way home, I feel no regret for that, it was her fault.”
Does that rule apply differently to different types of Narcs? Or are you never late because you are a high level N? My lesser N was always late & irresponsible so I wonder if he used rules like that against me, but didn’t apply them to himself?
It’s also hard for me to find the line between a Narc and a Sociopath. Do you have insight on better clarification among the 2? You seemed irritated or “sickened” by not finding someone as intelligent as you or find it sickening that people become lazy or weak throughout time and start becoming late, etc. are those feelings of a Narc given sociopaths don’t feel emotions like irritability at all?
Hi HG – Thank you for your very informative response. I added a couple answers to some of your questions below.
1. I’ll be in the sphere of proximity in the next few months as he will be moving back to my city. In this second interaction, after post discovery, I kept exposing and wounding until he blocked my phone number. In the first interaction, yes I went NC.
2. Ok, I understand I may be an escapee given I discovered, but the very end of the relationship concluded with him pushing me to rekindle relationships with other men because he kept reiterating he was not good enough for me. Is that some sort of last attempt to discard me after I had wounded his ego and other supply? Like a last “I still won” or a final pity punch type of thing? I’d much rather be discarded than considered an escape to him, I’ve seen how much his past escapes linger in his mind and it creeps me out a lot to be honest.
3. I know this is a dumb question, but I am really struggling with my moral compass here. I know of other sources of fuel that he has kept around for years, I want to keep exposing him to the supplies I know of for the sake of their sanity. I’m an attorney and know I won’t be easily ignored by them & he struggles to compete with my sources of evidence. I’m trying to let it go, but defending abuse victims is what I do for an occupation, so you can understand biting my tongue isn’t the easiest.
4. Certainly as someone sharing the narc perspective, hasn’t made you popular among other Narcs? Have you gotten negative reactions from Narcs for what you do? Just curious mainly.
Thanks again for your very informative insight.
HG,
So excited to have found this, any insight would be appreciated! I believe my recent N to be a lesser (lack of goals, education level, etc.), but perhaps a Mid.
I believe he had 2 full sources of primary supply for a few months. Myself & another (with a few secondaries in there). I think this because he took a temp job in another state to dissolve this situation & weed out which one of us would give him the most fuel using the “absence” method (told me this post discovery).
Anyway my main question is: I know I was a main supply the first few months, then possibly 2nd the last few months, I am the only supply, however, to discover and expose. I cut off my supply as well as the other main supply by exposing him. I also befriended a supply from his past that escaped & often lingers in his mind. I also lashed out & “wounded” his real self and ego by insulting his lack of success, wealth, & goals, I did this out of anger and it was emotionless for me so nothing he would counter would upset me. Only fueled me to belittle him even more to the point that he apologized (irritably), but left it as “I’m not good enough, u deserve better, I should’ve loved you how I said I did, don’t know why I did this, but I loved her the whole time and not you.”
Should I be prepared for a Hoover? He knows I know what he is, that my friends know, & that he can’t manipilate his way out of what I physically discovered with my own eyes, the other supply on the other hand, only has my word for it, so I know he is already working to Hoover her back, but hasn’t bothered me yet. Am I considered a discard or an escapee? I’m leaning towards more of a malign Hoover from him (if one at all) but I went hard at him & sense I got him to feel confused & almost remorseful for what he did. But it could’ve been faked.
One more thing, this is my second interaction with him in 3 years. The first was brief & I did NC on him. He made his way back in 6 months ago where this all unfolded.
Hello Hannah,
1. For there to be a Hoover there needs to be a Hoover Trigger. See the article Spheres of Influence in the Prime Articles section of the menu bar. Although you don’t write as such I am assuming that in cutting off fuel for him you have gone no contact in this second interaction ( I see you went NC in the first interaction) ? If so, you will drastically reduce the risk of a hoover trigger because then the only sphere you will appear in is the sixth sphere (when he happens to think of you).
2. If there is a Hoover Trigger, then the Hoover execution Criteria must be met (see the article Hoover Time also in the PA section). In your case, the fact you have cut fuel off and wounded him, given the fact that he is a Lesser (or MR) means that you have moved the bar high on the HEC, thus the prospects of him executing the hoover, when triggered, are reduced.
3. Instead he is more likely to turn to other sources and he will go after the other source which you have mentioned.
4. You will be regarded as having escaped.
5. Keep your defences up however as down the line the variables may alter so a hoover occurs.
Hi HG – Thank you for your very informative response. I added a couple answers to some of your questions below.
1. I’ll be in the sphere of proximity in the next few months as he will be moving back to my city. In this second interaction, after post discovery, I kept exposing and wounding until he blocked my phone number. In the first interaction, yes I went NC.
2. Ok, I understand I may be an escapee given I discovered, but the very end of the relationship concluded with him pushing me to rekindle relationships with other men because he kept reiterating he was not good enough for me. Is that some sort of last attempt to discard me after I had wounded his ego and other supply? Like a last “I still won” or a final pity punch type of thing? I’d much rather be discarded than considered an escape to him, I’ve seen how much his past escapes linger in his mind and it creeps me out a lot to be honest.
3. I know this is a dumb question, but I am really struggling with my moral compass here. I know of other sources of fuel that he has kept around for years, I want to keep exposing him to the supplies I know of for the sake of their sanity. I’m an attorney and know I won’t be easily ignored by them & he struggles to compete with my sources of evidence. I’m trying to let it go, but defending abuse victims is what I do for an occupation, so you can understand biting my tongue isn’t the easiest.
4. Certainly as someone sharing the narc perspective, hasn’t made you popular among other Narcs? Have you gotten negative reactions from Narcs for what you do? Just curious mainly.
Thanks again for your very informative insight.
from inside info, I know that she is sick now and stressed out even by having her new supply! anyway to take the advantage of that for my case? is she craving strawberry ice cream or something else lol.
what is the most effective way to re-attract her?
What goes in her mind
if i send her a i love you message
a normal message?
concern for her?
in order to attract her back, its good to communicate with her or just leave her alone till she message or something.
The question must be Romeo, why do you want to attract her back knowing what she is?
HG Tudor, Salute to you for all this explanation. it help me so much to understand how a narc actually think in their mind.
I was primary source of supply for 4 years (2011-2015 with my gf, at some point we were about to get married but here parents didnt accept me because of religion. Therefore we mutually letf each other. she went to marry somewhere else (August 2015) i was present at the wedding. after that we were feeling the attachment of each other, cus we were never separated. i thought it was love. anyways she only last 2 months in her marriage because she didnt get the fuel she expected from the husband. she would criticize her as not responsible and childish. etc.. so she technically runaway back to my arm ( we were both dying for each other) and filled divorced. at that tim she was emotionally disturbed. the more i was healing her the more she was trying to take thing in control of me. at some point she was acting crazy because when she came back she was ready to do anything. Therefore i though if i push her away she was realize how much she loves me and start being nice to me. when i broke up with her (in my mind just testing what she does) she says her heart & soul was broken into pieces. and tried manytime to hover. didnt work. after 2 months i wanted to get back with her. but i find out she has new supply. ( in my head how someone love you so much ready to die but yet goes to a new bf within 2 months)
Now we tried o get back together but now she always change her mind here and there. its not gonna work out bla bla cuz of the parents. (July 2016)
after a month she was hovering again but it was more to get over me for her emotional attachment, the moment i want to be with her she change her mind again. so i played jealousy card and she came back to arm again. (September 2016) she broke up with her rebound primary supply.
so now she tells me she loves me, in my head i want to test her if she gona leave me so i dont respond her i love you too. like no emotion, no compliments.. etc. i thought the less i give the more she wants me and crave for m. so (November 4 2016) i can sense that she is upto something. slowly slowly No more sex, no more being nice, no more fun conversation. ( i still didnt know that she was narcist or else i would f give her the supply) November 19 she discard me on the phone that she is not feeling it anymore. i said let talk face to face… she agreed but she call the next day however we didnt meet up cuz i didnt say anything about meeting up cuz i know what was coming. and i can sense that she was angry, she probably thought i would be begging etc..that was the end. she line up the exrebound….
that night i did research and figure out everything about narcissist because i couldn’t sleep. i was like damnnn i made big mistake.
Since then silence treatment, Sent her a email on december 9, praising her and all positive fuel, the email must be icandy for her.
here is a part of her reply :
“By the way, love the humor in the email 🙂 I get mad at you because i have some rights. No one needs to know about how good friends we are and we will be. I still wont accept the fact that we parted our ways. For me, that doesn’t mean i stop talking to you. Sometimes its just your attitude that pushes me away beside that i still wish our strong friendship to last. I always appreciated the best friend part of our relationship. .
I appreciate the fact you took your time to email me. It means alot, and help reduces the bitterness i had for you. This is NOT a good bye email or anything. We both need time to get our head straight and be who we really are.
By the way, very good email. Your English and the flow of the email is really good ! Love it :).”
she is happy with the her primary supply cuz he is licking her feet thats why she put me on friendzone.
So tell me what is the situation in my case, and what are the chance of what she will do ? what are the chance she will get back with me
what is effective way to get her back? messaging her? waiting to hear from her? call her sometime?
at this point she doesnt communicate keeping me hanging with silent treatment
thanks for your help
Why do you want her back?
He also said at various times that I would always be his. Why would he say that and then throw me away the literal very moment he finally had me. Why would he claim I was psycho at various points when I had done nothing crazy? But at other times he would say he knew i didnt love him. Idk its all so confusing.
Hello Stevie, because in our eyes as a consequence of the Narcissistic Relationship you belong to us forever and we can do as we please. You are an appliance. You are put to one side when you start to malfunction (not provide enough fuel being the main reason) and then revisited later when we deem that you are likely to function again. It is deliberately confusing because we have a different perspective to you and by keeping you confused, you remain emotional and stuck.
PS. When he left me 20 years ago he didnt know I was pregnant. I was forced by situation to do the unthinkable. He did run off at the mouth on time that it pissed him off I had someone else baby but not his. Which was astounding to me because he literally left me standing in the street and I never saw him again. It started a pretty bad fight. But then he abruptly ended the fight. Is he deep down hurt by that?
The fact you had a child with someone else and not him will have been perceived by him as a criticism, this wounded him hence the reaction.
I was wondering if I could pick your brain on assessing a situation because I am not sure if I have been dealing with a Narcissist or just an asshole. Long story short. 20 some odd years ago I briefly dated and fell for a guy that had just got out of prison. He picked a fight and dumped me overnight & had a new girl. Life go’s on but he never left my heart. He ended up going back to prison a few more times. Fast forward to 5 months ago and I notice a man with his name liked a FB picture. It was him and we started talking and he wanted to see me. I explained I was going through some dental issues and couldn’t see him until I was done with it- I refuse to see him unless I looked my best. He agreed. We talked & texted every day and bout midway through this time I ended up drunk texting him that I had always loved him and never got over him.From that point on it was a constant stream of me adoring him conversations (sexting, promising to treat him like a King yada yada) He loved it. But never once did this man ever build me up or compliment me too much. I mean some, but not much. I told him until I could see him he needed to continue his social life – meaning he could see other women without fear of me walking because I couldnt see him yet. Then I commented on a post a girl had posted on his page ( she posted she “Missed him” )and he became infuriated and basically disappeared for 2 weeks. He said he wanted me to know he wasn’t a cruel person and felt bad that I was hurting over him and he never intended to hurt me and it was tugging at him because he felt maybe he missed something between us so long ago. I assured him I was fine and had gone out on a date and things went right back to the way they had been. talking every day and texting all the time. Sun Up to sun down.I think there was one more angry outbursts in between but he responded when I made contact. I told him I needed to know if there was a chance at a relationship and he said maybe we had to take it slow and that was fine with me. Then my cousin decided to invite him over on Thanksgiving without warning. The visit went fine and I was excited as hell. That saturday I wanted to go out with him and for some reason I felt like I was having to force the issue. All I wanted to do was have sex.. that was it. I wasn’t asking him to be my bf, or to love me or anything but he was borderline angry when I got there and the mad passionate love we had been waiting so long for was anything but (( it sucked and was BRIEF) and 2 times he threatened to throw me out until the 3rd time when he did. I have NO CLUE what I did. He defriended me on FB and what little he would say before going totally silent was 3 different scenarios that were not true at all. He told my cousin I had problems and went silent on him after that. Was I not pretty enough? Did he just want one time sex? what? Why would he put so much time in on a one time thing when he had other girls? I cried for two weeks. One of my friends said he was a Narcissist and I was targeted because he knew I loved him so much and was feeding his ego with all the sweet talk & to be prepared for a return and a discard worse than this one she said the 1st discard already happened and this is the pattern starting. . So I googled and now I am here. I certainly think he could be but how do you tell the difference in a Narcissist and an asshole? He did view himself as a King Lol but thats cool cuz I am a Queen (we are leo’s) The intensity of our conversations and texts were explosive and I really fed his ego a lot on how I would spoil him. But anytime the convo would go towards a serious question he would get irritated before he really knew what it was. His temper was quick as hell. But I cant stress how intense our talks & my promises of my submission to him were. He did say that He has never loved anyone more than he loves himself but he knew one day he would fall in love. Sometimes he would pop off about the men on my fb page and one time he briefly suggested I need to delete but it was almost in a kidding manner but he always knew if someone said something neg about him on my page- always.. He did call once to raise hell about getting notifications in posts he is tagged in BUT that was really because someone said something shitty about him. Until that moment he wasn’t calling at at all and hasn’t called since and never asked about me .I have sent sporadic messages begging for a truthful closer and its radio silence. I sent a message lastnight telling him he didn’t break me and I was letting go he messaged back he never intended on breaking me. Then he said I nutted out when he said he wanted to take it slow and that is a LIE. UTTER LIE AND HE KNOWS IT! .He responded a 3rd time with a single word pet name he had for me and that was it. Ithought maybe I could get some closure when he texted back but no such luck. He refuses to answer. Does this relationship even qualify as a narcissist persons deal? I mean 5 months of heavy sweet talk and adoration , one time shitty sex and he bails? My GF says NORMAL Assholes would have just BLOCKED me after using me and either blocked my phone number or answered me back at this point either with an answer or to tell me to leave them alone. She says he never had to work on getting me to fall for him because I was already in love so he got to by pass that phase. I am so confused. Is this guy actually gonna try and see if I will take this shit again? or is he just a douche? I need to prepare if he is cuz I cant deal with this. I have never been treated like this. Thank You
This is the big one I need answers to because I cant tell if he is a psychopath or sociopath or narcissist .
I can help you in part at this juncture ST. I know you have sent me a long post earlier today which I will get around to in due course.
If he is a psychopath or a sociopath, he will be a narcissist as well. I will keep this in mind when I am reading your longer post.
Thank You. I tried to condense it. If you need more info just ask.We were NOT in a relationship but I dearly loved him and he told me there was a chance but that he had never loved anyone more than himself but he knew it would happen so I had a chance… I am just so thunderstruck because I didn’t do anything wrong- NOTHING. He said 3 different things that were all lies. And he was so fucking angry… God he was angry. Thank You Again so much.
I had sent a million texts the last 3 days begging for closure, was I not pretty enough, was there someone else ect, why did he end it before it even started – no answer then he answered this morning and said “i already told you I was done cause you are psycho” – THATS A LIE I DID NOTHING NUTS AT AND HE KNOWS IT!!
Of course and he tells you this because this is what he is describing you as to everybody else and he is hoping to gain more fuel from you. The fact you posted the last part in capitals tells me that he would indeed gain fuel from you.
HG he hoovered I knew it was coming. I know I said I would ignore but.I used this blessed opportunity to ask for his words to get rid of the new N but worded it differently. He got upset and told me to leave him alone.
Why is he so upset when a month ago he felt the need to tell me he was dating someone new but God forbid I tell him and ask for his all mighty knowledge on how to discard someone else Effectively?
😈
He told you he was dating someone new in order to extract fuel from you. He reacted as he has done because the fact you are with somebody else amounts to a criticism that he is not good enough because you have chosen someone else. The fact you have asked for help is irrelevant because all he is concentrating on is the criticism.
That was my goal to criticise him. I disguised it with asking him to help. Even if he had offered I would have changed my tactic. Criticism is the only thing that makes him go away.
Dear G. Tell me what’s in it for a narcissist if you go grey rock and he hoovers and dance and then stopps…and do it again and all over again? Surely he must see it’s “not working ” (his game of course ) ?
Eventually he will realise because there is no fuel forthcoming Maddie and this will force him to go elsewhere for fuel.
Thank you, Mr. Tudor, for your help.
You are welcome Tamara.
Hypothetically speaking, I am very curious as to why an Enabler of a ‘Ghosting Narcissist’ would be Hoovering the victim?
Do you mean that a third party is hoovering the victim? If so, this is a hoover by proxy and is taking place at the behest of the narcissist. This is being done because the narcissist may not be able to approach the victim direct, they want somebody else to test the waters so to speak and/or it is done in order to get under the victim’s radar.
I don’t understand why he would need to do this; he’s capable of getting plenty of supply elsewhere. He is charming, and plays the victim better than real victims. Women are always coddling his “poor, wretched state” and wishing to rescue him. Why would Narcs need to Hoover if they already have so much supply? Maybe he’s becoming bored with even them?
One can never have enough fuel Tamara.
Oh, ya.
Down to Zero by Joan Armatrading should be the victims theme song.
HG Can I ask you do you gain fuel from us victims? You are an expert at manipulation yeah? And very charming! I understand your knowledge gives us the knowledge we need. but you don’t feel any sympathy or empathy for victims/survivors of narcassistic abuse ? I’m quite intrigued by you is that because I’ve become a narcassist magnet 😖😖
Do you mean do I gain fuel from victims generally? Of course. That is why I do what I do.
If you mean do I gain fuel from those who contribute on the blog. Yes, but it is low because of the method of delivery and the fact that I do not know anybody who interacts with me here.
Yes I am an expert at manipulation.
No I do not feel any sympathy or empathy. I could pretend to if it served my purposes.
Only quite intrigued, seems like I have some work to do.
Beautiful survivor, quite intrigued is not “obsessed”. That’s what he’s shooting for. 😏
When I read your answers on my email consultations I really got the idea that you have empathy….
That is cognitive empathy, I understand but I do not feel. I have learned from my interaction with your kind.
Ur right. Sorry it was a dum question. I asked. U answered. I asked again!! U can see by this that at times i just cant accept that you/they think so different to us.
Thanks for ur patience!
It is not an issue Jules, it is common and understandable given where you are to not be able to process why he regards it this way. It was not a dumb question but an important one to you and pertinent in demonstrating the confusion that we cause. It will take time but eventually through reading and interacting here you will understand the different perspectives.
Thank u again. Im insatiable so u can expect to hear from me alot until u probably discard me too 😂 Im finding it difficult to not hog u to myself with my questions. So bare with me pls. He says im anal with my questions and calls me 007. 😂🙃.
Ask as much as you like.
It seems like, no matter the reality of the situation, if their efforts to keep us in line fail then ultimately it’ll be them discarding us or it’ll get spun that way. It just has to be. They can’t tolerate the ego hit so it’s better to make it into them rejecting us. That does cut deep, but still we can take that blow in exchange for freedom. Those silent treatments and discards are gifts in disguise if we can use them to find blogs like this and other resources to gain clarity and perspective, which you’ve done. Despite the turmoil and confusion you’re going through, you’re still seeking information. Many people stay down in the emotional muck and can’t pull themselves out.
HG is very patient and understanding in listening to our woes. I imagine us being like your little sister who ran to you for a sympathetic ear (energy discharge). We come here with our comments and replies full of emotion. We also gather knowledge and strength and get ourselves ready for the continuing battles to follow.
Thank you Lilly.
Thank u this article is very helpful. The only thing im confused about is im not sure if i was discarded or if i escaped. Maybe you can help me with this. So heres abit of background. Firstly Iv realised from ur books that i am his (was) anchor ( although not his wife) weve been back and forth for 12 yrs. the recent episode is i was onto him ( again) and he knew it so he kept minimal contact during the time i was full of suspicion and questions. To get to the bottom of things i contacted the other women i was suspicious about and the truth came out. She went on a revenge quest and threatened to destroy him through business and also to report his abuse on her. He went balistic and said i had no right to contact her and what ever she ends up doing to him he will hold me responsible. He finished off by telling me he hopes her and i both die and he won’t ever forget how iv betrayed him. I threw the same verbal abuse back at him. That was 2 months ago. I dont ever expect a hoover from him as i truly believe hes gone for good now but im curious to no how he sees things from his perspective. In his mind did he discard me? Or did i escape him?
Hello Jules, he discarded you.
Huh😳 Serious!! Even tho i set out to expose him and blocked him before he found out what i did? Surely he sees i wanted out if i went to that extent.
Indeed. This was the key part of your comment Jules,
“how he sees things from his perspective. In his mind did he discard me? Or did i escape him?”
From his perspective.
Very thorough explanation. No FUH today. I hope your last sentence is incorrect. Looking forward to reading about the other spheres in depth!
Yes! He was the constant “victim”, and rarely ever smiled! He was not seductive, but instead was highly emotional and prone to bouts of crying, and expressed suicide feelings often. He was never to blame for anything, and did major Triangulation, Gaslighting, Antagonizing me, Baiting me, and had the saddest childhood imaginable (from what he said)…. But, when he got angry, he would block me constantly from FB and Smear me on his timeline. Because I tried to tell him my feelings, our relationship ended with him sending me several Hate emails, (blocking me so I couldn’t respond), and then he completely ghosted me. I’m thinking Narcissism with Histrionic or Borderline Personality Disorder…
Tamara
Tut Tut Tut HG Tudor, a few grammatical errors in this piece. How disappointing, I had higher expectations of you.
Moving on, I have devoured your website and I am attempting to beat my Narcissist at his own game. I know what irks him and what he want to hear from me. He is under the assumption that I believe every word he says and I am leading him on. I am using your insight to trap him and beat him at his own game……
Reblogged this on Psychopathy Today.
Thankyou HG but I’m sooooo confused . Trying to put together the final pieces of the jig saw . He was aggressive towards me physically 3 times over a 2 year period the last time was brutal hence the reason he’s out of my life but I’m sitting here traumatised with no teeth after he knocked them out . He done alot more than that! His life was one massive web ov lies that all began to surface this year and i confronted him , an told him I wanted out! His ex wife disclosed how he treated her and threatened to murder her via text message to me just 1 week before he attacked me and left me unconscious to die. He denied her accusations when I challenged him . So is he a narcassist or a pyscopath??? I know one thing for sure…. he’s a twisted , dangerous individual and I praise the Lord I survived and he’s out of my life .
Probably a Lesser Narc based on this snapshot but would need to know more.
HG,
I’m coming out of a first encounter & have questions on my particular case, especially any aftermath I may be able to prepare better for.
Do you offer advice via another form of communication or is it my best shot to get a response with a brief set of questions on this Q&A page?
Hello Jojo, if you go to the menu bar on the blog you will see there is a section for a private consultation which is the best option for a quick and detailed response to your own situation.
Oh my goodness, Kerri! I am so glad you survived! You didn’t deserve any of that. Hoping you are in a physically safe place. Does it really matter knowing what this dangerous man is, he clearly is a danger to you and others in his life. He could be each and all those things. What’s important is that you are sefe and getting help to keep you safe and work through the trauma. Is he in jail, I hope? Sending safety vibes and ((hugs))
Hi Indy . physically I’m still broken, emotionally I’m gettin there . The shock is subsiding now the anger is setting in. It’s hard to grasp the reality that the relationship was fake. When for me it was real my love was genuine . Everything about me is genuine I’m an empath I feel deeply . perfect prey for him . I was vulnerable a few years ago when he targeted me . I had survived another traumatic experience- a brain haemorrhage . Which makes him even more vile because he smashed my head with a toilet seat which such force he knocked me out . That was after he knocked my teeth out whilst I was sat on the bathroom floor unable to defend myself . Very lucky that his attack (narcassistic rage) didn’t cause another bleed on my brain . I know he wanted to kill me because I’d discovered who he really was and I challenged his lies an behaviour and he knew he was going to lose me anyway. That was his worst fear . And if he couldn’t keep me then he didn’t want anyone else to ever have me either. I was never frightened of him during the relationship I knew mentally I was so much stronger but physically I had no chance . I’m frightened of him now because I’ve experienced what that very sick individual is capable of . I have not seen him since the night I nearly died but I see him in court for the first time on Friday . I feel strong today but every day is different . I just hope when Friday comes I have the strength needed to show him no emotion . I don’t want him to gain any fuel from me. He’s taken enough!! I want justice for what he has done to me an my family who trusted him an welcomed him into our lives . Especially my 2 beautiful children. I want a safe happy life free from evil 🙏
Sending positive vibes for justice and safety for you and your family!!!! I understand about the need to know what diagnosis, I went through that too and it is totally valid. Again, wishing you increasing peace and safety for you and your children.
Am really, really looking forward to the trio of books. 🙂
Would it be possible for you to include examples of the different ways the Lesser/MidRange/Greater act inside their locked bolt-holes?
There is a separate book all about The Bolt Hole, Hope. That will of course use examples for all three schools.
Mid Range…almost positive that is what DN is. Read like the most recent chapter of my life and I am pretty sure once the other spheres are written about, past chapters will be written as well. H.G. I don’t even know what to say other than I am amazed every day…by your work! Thank you!
Thank you Alex, I appreciate that.
What is the difference between the lesser and the mid because i think all these evil monsters sound the same!
This will be far clearer when I publish a trio of books The Lesser, the Mid Range and the Greater. Essentially the Lesser has no awareness of what he is, has low self-control and operates through instinct rather than calculation, although that is a simplistic summary but it works for the purposes of this comment.The Mid Range applies some thought to his actions, he tends to be less aggressive in behaviour than the Lesser and makes extensive use of the silent treatment, he has no awareness of what he is but recognises some differences in the way he behaves and feels to others but does not know why that is.
Fascinating and so informative as always HG.
I have had 13 hoovers in the past 6 months, post escape and with me specifying No Contact. I have not responded to any. Please clarify for me if this is still the IGH? How to distinguish when the IGH ends and the FUHs begin?
I have been steadfast in my silence but a few days ago I nearly caved in. It was a text : “Please let me know you are OK, and I will leave you alone if that’s what you want! Miss you xx”
I have no desire whatsoever to rekindle the relationship or have any more contact. I do not believe he would leave me alone if I responded in any way. I know he does not miss me, he misses my fuel. However it got under my skin as I felt unreasonable for not replying. If it was any other ex I would have responded. Perhaps this was the intended manipulation. This particular hoover has got to me the most, and it has been a real battle of logic over emotion, cognitive dissonance and questioning myself. However I am reasoning that if he genuinely cared about my wellbeing, he would not have treated me with contempt and disrespect.
Post escape my window was smashed. Although I have no proof it was him, I have no doubt it was him or a lieutenant on his behalf. From your excellent post “How No Contact feels Part 2”, I have learnt that this was done to obtain fuel after the Preventative Hoover failed. He got no reaction from this either. I had assumed it was punishment for me putting him in a position where he had to resign from his job, and I also wondered if it was a warning for me not to instigate further investigation by speaking with his manager. Do you think that this could also be the case HG?
He lives locally, and although I have been avoiding places he usually frequents, there is a strong likelihood that our paths will cross at some point, either by accident or him finding me. If this occurs, what is the best thing to do? What if there is no way I can make my escape and I am forced to interact with him? I know to keep flat and unemotional. If I am forced in this position I want to convey that there are no hard feelings, but I do not want to have anything more to do with him. How best to do this?
When we were together (I had no idea what he was until escape), he triangulated me with other women who he said were in love with him and would not leave him alone. My response was “Well I don’t blame them!” (I was under the spell then!) His reaction was at first surprise that I said that, then he seemed to consider it, and then was smug and pleased. He had not succeeded in making me jealous but had gained positive fuel. So if I were to unavoidably bump into him, and he started to tell me how happy he is with a new appliance, then how would he feel if I said, “Ooh that’s nice, I’m glad you’ve found someone who can make you happy” (this would be genuine) ?
If I told him I had found someone who makes me happy, would he take this as a criticism? And would it make it more likely that he would leave me alone and stop hoovering for a while?
Hello Rainbow and thank you.
The IGH takes place very soon after your first escape. It is an almost frenzied assault to win you back. The duration varies on fuel levels and the type of narcissist but will last a couple of weeks maximum. After that it is FUHs.
You can distinguish because:-
1. The IGH is direct and determined;
2. There is usually a gap after it because if it fails we are likely pushed into Chaos Mode and have to go elsewhere. This gives you a period of respite as we seek fuel elsewhere;
3. The FUHs are sporadic in nature.
Your analysis of the text is correct. The manipulation was intended and it was aimed as your sense of decency, knowing that you would feel compelled to reply.You are applying logic in your assessment and keeping the emotional sea from swamping your logic vessel. So far.
The smashing of the window will have been to draw fuel from you primarily, a malign hoover, but given the circumstances you describe it was evidently done to punish and intimidate. It will have been him as I suspect you do not make a habit of engaging with people who would smash your window for no good reason.
Should you encounter him you are correct in the way to deal with him. Do not feel any need to state you have no hard feelings. There are actually aren’t there? He has treated you with contempt and disrespect. He wants you to feel bad and that you should in effect apologise to him. If you are obliged to talk to him, no emotion, don’t ask him about himself (it will feel rude but you need to get used to it) because in doing this you will be telling him that you have no interest in him which is easier to do than actually saying it and it will also be picked up by him more readily. Talk about yourself. Don’t do so in gushing tones, but talk about your friends, your work, the latest piece of music you bought, the cake you baked, anything to do with you and drone on. He will soon extricate himself from the conversation. You are also showcasing that you are no longer going to give him fuel which will be a consideration for him for future hoover attempts as described in one of today’s articles.
If he starts banging on about his new appliance do not respond to that and instead talk about yourself instead. It will infuriate him. You have no need to even wish him well because doing so is fuel and also acknowledges him.
If you said you had found someone it might pique his interest. Better he finds out through a third party. Keep the conversation about your day to day life, don’t ask about him or how he is and he will be wounded and soon withdraw.
I feel a bit restless after writing that, I need some fuel.
Thank you for such a detailed response HG.
I know you have a brain the size of a planet and goodness knows how many tendrils, but it always amazes me how you find the time in your busy schedule of machinations and fuel gathering to be able to regularly pump out such consistently top quality writing, and to answer all of our questions so thoroughly.
Why I was confused about the IGH is that I didn’t seem to have one. My last text to him of no more contact was met with complete silence for 3 weeks. Then the 13 FUHs have been quite evenly spaced. I’m guessing this was because he already had another primary source lined up and so he was concentrating on the seduction of her rather than bother wasting energy on my IGH. What do you think?
I feel more prepared now if I happen to bump into him and am forced to interact, thank you for the tips. In spite of what he did to me I do not have hard feelings towards him, perhaps this is difficult to understand. Maybe because I was not too deeply entangled (I was not in love with him, he is married, it only lasted a year). Reading your work makes me understand how he operates and I realise we are just not compatible for any type of relationship. We are just not able to give each other what we need. I can’t provide him with positive fuel when I don’t love or admire him at all. I don’t want to give him negative fuel because that is no fun for me. I need trust, consistency, mutual respect and support in any relationship, he cannot provide this. We are different creatures, but that doesn’t make me hate him. In fact I feel quite sad that his perception of people is so black and white and 2D. He is missing out.
I had a strange experience that gave me a little glimpse of what your kind might experience. I went completely numb for a time, and stopped feeling anything. Things that would normally provoke an emotional reaction (for example my cousin’s newborn baby, my best friend’s cancer spreading) did not touch me at all. I felt like a robot. I found myself having to fake the appropriate reactions and responses. When I came back into myself everything seemed rich and vibrant and I felt bursting with love. You don’t know what you’ve got til it’s gone. Now I appreciate it even more.
In my final text to him I said I believe we were meant to have met for a reason. I now realise that the main reason for me was to force me to learn and grow. I am healing old wounds that attracted me to him in the first place. I am finding out who I really am and what fulfills me. Now I know I am sufficient and whole in myself, I do not need an intimate partner to complete me. When I eventually feel ready for one they will be an added bonus to enhance my life. And I’ll be able to spot the red flags quickly thanks to all that I have learnt from HG.
However he will be forever reliant on appliances to supply him with fuel. His thirst will never be quenched. It must be exhausting! He is a Somatic type and he is getting old (mid sixties). He is starting to creak with physical ailments and is losing his looks. I feel pity for him, but not enough to be drawn back into any kind of interaction. I nearly fell off the wagon the other day after a hoover, but clung on with the help of reading this blog and now I am back on course. Without you HG, I wouldn’t know my arse from my elbow right now! It is like learning a different language with your kind, and how lucky we are to have you as our teacher and translator.
I am interested to know why you felt a pressing need for fuel at that particular point after answering my question HG?
Hello Rainbow,
There are essentially four situations concerning the cessation of a primary source.
1. Your replacement is embedded and ready to come “online” therefore we discard you;
2. Your replacement is embedded and ready to come “online” but before we discard you escape,
3. Your replacement is being seduced but is not yet embedded and you escape us.
4. There is no replacement and you escape us.
I suspect from what you have described your were in position number two and thus there was no IGH as he just switched to the replacement.
You certainly have an admirable understanding of both your situation and your needs and thank you for your kind compliment.
Yes it is like learning a different language, that is a good way of putting it.
I felt a need for fuel because the subject matter that I was writing about was unsettling to me.
Don’t cave no matter what. Of course he said that. Do not open that door. The only thing behind it is regret.
Holy cow, you got 5 more spheres to go! Yay! And, incredibly detailed. I do wonder, how did you get all this information/knowledge on the Lesser and Mid-rangers, given that you are a Greater/Elite? I know we are all surrounded by narcissists in the world though I wonder if you also further you knowledge in other ways? Starting to think there really is a Club, with multiple floors and rooms.
Random question, do you think HG that someone can become a narcissist later in life with no signs in early development?
It is explained more fully in the introduction to The Lesser Narcissist a book I am working on at present. Essentially it is based on the fact I know my kind, I have several in my family, social group and at work so I have ensured I have studied them. Oh and the good doctors have chipped in a bit as well, guess I had better mention them.
No.
I may be wrong, but based on your response, I get a vibe that you felt challenged by my question and disrespected in some manner by me. Not the case at all. It was meant with genuine curiosity, as you know so much about a broad range of functioning on the NPD and APD spectrums.
Yes, the good docs get a hard time around here! Chip in a couple of credits for them too, ha ha.
Regarding my random question, I didn’t think so, but I thought I would ask your own view. I have always thought of personality disorders as a whole as developmental in nature (bio-psycho-social influences over time) from what I have learned.
Not at all Indy. I wasn’t challenged not did I feel disrespected. It is actually the case that I have been writing the intro to the Lesser Narcissist this evening so your query was actually rather timely.
I am inclined to agree with your observation in your final paragraph, given what I have learned from the good doctors. You see I am learning more from them that they are from me, I know their game and have them in my eye.
I have no doubt that is the case, HG. I know you are absorbing it up like a sponge.
Very much the case Indy.
What am excellent list.. You are the bible of facts of Narcissism..
Its impressive to read.. It was the feeling I got when reading…. Somehow the chasing fuel comcept has chamged in my mind
How do you feel that the chasing fuel concept has altered Nikita, I am interested to know?
Well before I used to think that if the narcissist needs it, getting it was not a heavy burning task…you mentioned that its solething we need to do and we have no remorse. But now I think it is a something heavy to do.. How I read it in this posting it is independent of the collateral effects, maybe a reson for sadness.. Maybe the reason for the permanent anger .. The reason as in rootcause.