The Effect of No Contact on the Narcissist
You know that No Contact is the key to beating the narcissist, but how does it affect the narcissist?
This Logic Bulletin explains to you what happens when you impose your No Contact Regime and how you can expect the narcissist to respond.
It covers Lesser, Mid-Range and Greater Narcissists in fascinating detail.
How does the narcissist feel?
What happens if you tip-off the narcissist that you are leaving him or ending the relationship?
What happens to the narcissist if you end the relationship and say nothing?
How does the narcissist respond?
What do you need to look out for in terms of common errors which will prejudice your no contact regime and place you at risk?
What will the narcissist do by way of response, so you can ascertain how to avoid this?
The content of this Logic Bulletin will give you these answers and more so you can build your Logic Defences and understand what will happen when you impose no contact now or in the future.
106 thoughts on “The Effect of No Contact on the Narcissist”
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This thread, in my opinion has some really good comments in it. HG offers some excellent ‘nuggets’ of advice that may be of use to people reading this blog.
A very informative bulletin, HG. Thank you for it.
Had a question. While the UMRN (as determined by the Narc Detector) I had escaped from last month after a 2-year affair followed exactly what you described – apologies, saying he’d change, veiled threat, etc, he also proceeded to damage my husband’s car on two occasions and broke into my balcony. This seemed like the behaviour of the Lesser. Now I’m unsure what I’m dealing with. No contact has been difficult as he is my neighbour and he spies on me, though I have tried to stay off his radar and blocked him electronically, going NC. The hoovers haven’t stopped.
So my question – can I expect more damage to property or as a UMRN will that stop when confronted with the CCTV evidence – as my husband is determined to do? Can I expect backlash in that case, through threats being acted upon?
What I understood from your consultation was that as a mid-ranger, threat would not be acted upon and the hoovers would eventually cease. His Lesser-like activities is now leaving me baffled!
Hello Help, no, a UMR can engage in physical violence and property damage. It is not routine and will often be done in a secretive or unobserved manner e.g. jumping someone from behind rather than a brawl in a bar seen by everybody – paying someone to slash tyres as opposed to running up in the middle of the day and slamming a half ender through your windshield.
Thanks for clearing that up for me, HG. This had been baffling me! He continues malign hoovers and I continue reading your blogs and books in the hope that I will find a way out of this acutely distressing situation that seems to only escalate. He recently told my husband about the affair. Is it possible he will leave us alone after this? Or do something worse like share sensitive material? I try to keep out of his vision…
🙁
To answer your questions, I need more information about the situation so I can give you an accurate answer and to do this and give you peace of mind and/or steps to take to achieve this, I recommend that you organise an audio consultation with me and I will help you.
Thank you, HG, for your reassuring reply. Have already organised an audio consult with you for next week. Speak to you soon!
Jolly good.
Exactly.
I left a narc as I refuse to be controlled and manipulated by anyone (Eventually). Especially when that control and manipulation was sold as a benefit to me, but really, the only one who he wanted to benefit was himself. I coped on after some time to his pattern and what he thought were clever strategies. It got to the point where I could read his mind and know his next move….it really frustrated him. I turned it around to my advantage and was one step ahead all the time. In a way I enjoyed the tables being turned and the control back in my court. I jump off the emotional roller coaster and left him only when it suited me and I played him. It was a little compensation for myself after enduring years of the emotional rollercoaster and mental confusion. In the minds of narcissists, they are always the victims, never the victimizers. So how are you able to see us empathetic people as victims and advise us when truly at your core you believe yourself the victim?Is there not a contradiction of emotions for you?
This is my first time reading one article and me saying yes yes yes ! this is what I´ve really experienced over and over again .
always felt this deeply -> you are treated like a naughty child who has seen the error of her ways .
Profuse Apologies HG,
I thought I read that somewhere.
Hello again Henry,
Not odd but curious and I am glad you find it appropriate to give so many insights into your world. It will be so beneficial to many people, myself included. I will be reading more of your work as the content is very eye opening.
Regards
AB
Noted. I am not called Henry by the way.
Narc 1 was a Lesser….Narc 2 and a Victim Type – his actions and need for supply taught me some very scary lessons….was a Greater….and an Elite. He was much harder to recognise but once I had, after the lessons from the first Narc….I was out of there. I didn’t react angrily. I remained calm, passive. I sent a text telling him I didn’t want to continue any contact. I blocked him from all of my social media and from my phone. I went to every length to become invisible to him. I’ve changed job too. From reading Sitting Target, I am sure that I’m still on his radar. I’m sure he knows what I do. I remain determined in no contact and I don’t think the Hoover will come. I think the Greater has new supply but will be somewhat irked by the empath that shut him out.
I find it such a curious paradox that a narcissist likes empowering empaths. Very curious.
Thank you for your candour.
Regards
AB
Hello Anne, interesting name.
Empowering empaths accords with my aims. I understand it may seem odd to you, but it is appropriate for me for many reasons. I do not do it out of the goodness of my heart.
You are welcome for the candour.
Is the Greater ‘threatened’ by the Super Empath or intimidated?
Neither.
Wow
Dear HG
I was involved with a mixed of a High Mid Range/more close to Greater Narc for less than a year. I left him over the phone the first time. After he failed with several types of hoovering he did EXACTLY what you mention here: Drain supplementary sources of fuel turning to friends, family, colleagues and so forth as we frantically find a new primary source and once done he achieved stability through new source.
After 2 months of silent treatment given from him I failed so fucking bad and I was the one that I contact him. We came back together but after 3 weeks or so I decided to put the final END. Unfortunately, still at this point I wasn’t aware of the fact that it wasn’t necessary to deliver the message in person. He tried hoovering first but failed and then after a couple of hours he “agree” to the fact that we need to split out. He knew this would happen. I know for a fact that at this point he already had another source in place and that’s why he probably won’t come back now but will eventually. I’ve already blocked him on social media (don’t want him to like my posts and see how my life’s going as he will use this info eventually) but I haven’t blocked him in the phone yet.
Considering we will probably see each other again sooner or later as we work in the same industry and we have people in common. Is there any recommendation to brake him without losing my reputation inside the industry? Is still no contact your suggestion? I understand that I’ve been a fantastic fuel source to him but I have an ego too.
Hello Lostmarian, if he is a Greater Narcissist I would suggest not wasting your time trying to break him. However, if you wish to receive a more detailed analysis of who you are dealing with and how you might proceed thereafter, I recommend you engage in a consultation with me.
HG,
I told my Narc this week that I can’t do this anymore and need some time and distance because my thoughts about who he is have not changed. His response was “I understand. It is sad but I understand. I also think some time apart will be helpful.”
Which type of Narc reacts like this?
Thanks thanks xxx
I was a narc’s Dirty Secret but I didn’t know that. Then, by mistake, he sent a text message to me that was intended for his other lover or girlfriend (he denied that he is seeing anyone apart from me). I exposed him in front of his friend, (he denied sexual involvement with me looking into my eyes) but his friend took my side and he was kicked out of the project that we started to run together. Now I have no contact with him for 3 months but he called after the incident and said that he will not contact me, and that out of respect for me he will not pursue me, so I can rebuild my life. Is he gone for good?
Reading your blog opened my eyes and freed me from uncertainty and confusion, so thank you for that, however I delude myself that now, armed in new knowledge about his nature I could manage better
What if your narc is physically old in age (although not bad looking for 68) Even if he is a “greater” & told me I wouldn’t hear from him again? Too old to get supply?
I now believe my first ex narc to be a Greater. The description is spot on. He even had a large dragon tattoo on his arm, so this description was especially chilling to me. One of the first times I met him, I told him, “I feel like I should be afraid of you, but I’m not.” He laughed and told me that I make bad decisions. If that wasn’t foreshadowing of the next 6 years to come, I don’t know what is. He systematically isolated me from friends and family. He controlled my every move, if I even got up to go to the bathroom he’d ask where I was going. He worked maybe a total of 6 mos out of 6 years, so I had to support us financially. I had to wait on him hand and foot. My car was stolen from in front of our house, and to this day I believe he had it done as a means to control me, or maybe to punish me for a previous transgression that I can’t even recall. There were innumerable instances of what I now call “sleep rape”, where he’d begin to have sex with me while asleep. I was made to sleep at the foot of the bed like a dog so he had room to spread out. But of all the abuse, he never physically hurt me, he never laid a hand on me. He didn’t have to.
What finally convinced me to leave: I was pregnant with his child, and he wanted me to abort it. He fought with me day and night for nearly 2 weeks. He even convinced his mother, whom we lived with, to tell me I couldn’t live there if I wanted to keep the baby. I had to go crawling back to my mother (also a narc) to ask if I could live with her. While I was talking to her, he showed up at her house. He told me he was sorry, he was wrong, and asked that I please just get in the car to talk. We drove around as he told me everything I wanted to hear. We were going to have a baby, be a family, he’d get a job, etc. We got home and I was relieved; things were going to be ok. We went to our room and he said, “If you want to keep this baby, THIS is what you’ll have to put up with.” And he raped me. I was completely blindsided, humiliated, and confused. I cried myself to sleep and vowed I was leaving him, at any cost. The very next day, I had a miscarriage. With the baby gone, we were back to a Golden Period. But for the next 2 mos, I quietly hid money away, found an apartment, and planned my escape.
I knew nothing about narcissism. All I knew was that he was dangerous and volatile, and all my previous attempts to leave had been unsuccessful because I had told him I was leaving. This gave him the opportunity to stop me, convince me, hoover me. He even once held a gun to his head, and my fear was not that he’d shoot himself, but that he’d shoot me. So the day I was leaving, I left like I was going to work like any other day, and didn’t tell him a thing. I hid my car at a relative’s house whom he didn’t know where they lived. I hid at my father’s house. Different people called to tell me he had gone there looking for me, crying that he was just worried about me. Everyone was told to tell him they didn’t know where I was but I was safe, and not coming back to him. The voicemails and texts ran the gamut from crying begging me to answer, to being vicious and vile. I responded to none of them. I went back the next day with my father to collect my belongings, and to my surprise he wasn’t there. I thought for sure he’d be there to try to change my mind.
For the next few mos, he’d call and text a few times a week. I didn’t realize exactly what he was doing, but I would respond coldly and flatly, if I responded at all. He sent me a picture one day; he had my eyes tattooed on his arm. My freaking EYES! It was at that point that I decided to go NC without knowing what I was really doing or why. It just felt like what I had to do. He sent me a letter to my work apologizing for how he treated me, that he didn’t deserve me, blah blah blah. A part of me felt vindicated, but I still did not respond. He finally gave up and I’ve never seen or heard from him since.
But a few mos later, I got involved with another narc, a Lesser who did eventually physically abuse me. I never understood why he couldn’t stop contacting his exes, until now that I have learned about supply or fuel. After 2 years, I finally left him too. He continued to try contacting me for over a year, even though I did not respond whatsoever. I finally found a normal loving man, and have had a healthy relationship for the last 6 years. I am finally beginning to understand what those men were, why I was drawn to them, and am healing from the 8 years of abuse finally. I still have dreams regularly that I’m trying to escape one of them, and only this past week have I begun to be successful. In the past week, I’ve learned about NPD. I finally get it.
I’m very interested in learning about people, and why they do the things they do. So I have a few questions. Are all of these mind games, the devaluation, discard, hoovers etc, done consciously or subconsciously? Do you sit and plan these things, or are they subconscious reactions to triggering situations, like your supply trying to leave? Is there ever any true chance at rehabilitation? Do narcs ever enter into relationships with other narcs, or do you solely look for victims? Do you believe you were born this way, or created through environmental situations, or a combination? Thank you for writing and giving me insight into the past, and for reading my novel here.
I’ve had so much compassion to have lived with my narc, but my major problem, which continues to haunt me was her lack of boundary on who to cheat with.
My narc is a flirt who couldn’t do without validation from other men. In fact she flirts with any man that’s near, with my friends (using contacts from my phone)and even with my relatives; whether it leads to sex is what I can’t tell, as I don’t have enough evidence – but I suspect it does.
My instincts tells me she’s done some terrible things anytime she displays great confusion (with no obvious reason). In this stage she feels like a lost child, with incoherent emotions, mannerisms and thoughts. I bet she feels shameful about something she’s done.
I feel USED and DEVALUED. I am thinking of the best way to revenge.
Thank You so much, Mr. Tudor,
for this enlightening site so well written.
I already read and learnt a lot about narcissism before discovering your site… I worked hard on myself through a 3 years “almost couple”/only sex if you want/best friend/”sister soul”/”brothers in arms”…and so on “”relation”” with the greater NPD (I prefer that term than “narcissist”…no offense) I ever met in my life…It was painful and so hurting emotionaly…
But… YOUR articles…..OMG… It was “HE”… oh yeah… It was like flashes in a dark room, revealing furnitures and objects inside…It was so useful for me to be enlightened by those flashes to walk into this place …seeing the inside of the room, you can know more where you are standing…it’s easier to walk away…
I still “allow” his last mails – I told him he was blocked just a few days ago and he is giving some “ping”…- but now, instead of feeling anxious, sad, angry or worse…hopeful
… I come to your site and learn… about me too.
I had a question in my mind… why you decided to help a lot of “empaths” to see inside de room…?
Entangled and desentangled by one… I like that 😉
Thank you Wild Again. I allow it because I enjoy writing, I enjoy the interaction, I get a little fuel from it but mainly it appeals to me to weaponise empaths to go into battle.
Hello HG I have sent a message to you, I can understand why it probably was not posted or answered. I have a question for you if I may please. Why do Narcs reach the stage of wanting to kill off the family? What exactly is going threw their mind when thinking this. What if a narc said that he is “suffering ” from a mental illness that is from living in hell and because of this he may not be aware of his actions of wanting to harm the victim and child. Why would a narc blantely put that out there when yes homicidal tendicies are there. And yes he is loosing a battle towards his victim has NO CONTROL no longer. And hasn’t and has no regards for the law obviously. I thought Narcs were in control of every action they take and yes use head games to get to the victim. But what if it’s not getting to the victim. There is no connection and he can feel that. So have i and it feels so good. He’s again certainly not refueling of what his needs are and to met. So what is the mind of a narc when you read on the news killing the hole family off. For what satisfaction does he get when knowing the consequences to this and obviously doesn’t care about the law. To kill off the victim and child in common? What if he’s tried himself and didn’t succeed and is now starting off with just putting fear into the victim and that didn’t work. And why would someone like that send others out to do his work after? But may soon break down and do it himself to end it, because he now has nothing to loose. Which he has done a lot of his fearful work. But when it comes hands on he sends someone else. Why is that? Freedom will possibly be over for him very soon. So I’m very confused maybe you can break this down for me for I am not understanding what sphere he is in or myself. Thank you for reading. I REALLY hope to get a response from you as I feel very confused. And usually confused I’m not. Explaining in small terms for me works the best for my brain doesn’t work the way it used too. But I’m getting there. Yes I’ve reached and have reached out to alternative resources as you said but that’s been in place for now 2 years and this situation is just getting worse. I’d like to know somehow where I can really stand safely with being alive and keeping my son alive as well. Too end this I knew at the end it was going to come down to this. But here I am almost at the end and I just want to know where myself and family stand so I need to know what I’m facing. My gut never lies to me and I’ve felt it for a month now with situations getting worse and I always trust my gut it’s been right all along. I’m just asking HG for a response for I am not letting this get to me because I would be wasting my energy and feeding him.. Thanks for listening HG you have been right on spot with everything accept the question asked to me by you if I’ve stuck to no contact which I have. And yes of course there are legal proceedings that used to be once twice a month but currently there are long spaces in between courts now for legal proceedings which gives me a break. Thank goodness! Might I also add that my son is very intuitive with people at his age he can reconize good or bad people sense them as I do which I’ve been told I have a 3rd eye Always since I was younger but that seems to scare people or think I’m nutty so I never mention it. My son has been telling me he’s been having nightmares of me being killed. My son has not had nightmares night tremors in a very long time but just lately. Mind you I inhold my feelings in. And always project positive energy for him. He scarres me when he sais things like that Hildreth know HG. I appreciate your time to read my comments. I am REALLY HOPING that this time you just maybe take your time to please answer me. I am troubled and confused. Sincerely RED I will look for an email today. Of course I have sleepless nights always lol I wonder why
This read as to my life! I cant believe how accurate this blog is, compared to everything that happened when I escaped. We were living together at the time, but he was outsmarted. By me! Ouch! And the following scenario was exactly as you described HG. Next time round (yes I got hoovered back after 3 years NC), he discarded me…almost. Thats the time I had to (literally) walk into the dragons den, and call it quits myself, before the discard was complete. He actually agreed. No begging. Said he wouldnt stalk me (“I would have already done that by now if I was gunna do it”, were his words). Well….18 months later hoover begins AFTER the divorce!! God. I feel like Im reading my life with you HG. Its unbelievable. Thank heaps.
You are most welcome Lisa, thanks for letting me know.
I enjoy watching the dragon grow fat and slovenly drink more and become schizoid he deserves it. his brand of love was as attractive as a fake Rolex, just pretty garbage. Death might take him out of his early misery but alas eternity awaits.
HG what if you have been able to accomplish no contact but you’re narc during the realationship was verbally and physically abusive. Strangulation was my Narcs for tay. My narc won’t stop trying to ruin me legally and finicially and it’s not working on his end. Now he’s trying to actually find me. Please tell me the truth where this is leading from you’re prospective because it doesn’t seem like he’s refuling to me and everytime I see and hear him in legal proceedings My narc sounds more raged more out of control and not making sense. Please tell me the truth of what my narc might be thinking at this point. He knows what he’s facing. I want the truth please
Hello Fairy Dust, the legal proceedings mean that you keep entering his sphere of influence. Thus this causes a hoover trigger and he then looks to gain fuel from you and this is manifesting through anger as he uses this as a device to draw fuel from you. You are not yet able to effect total No Contact because he sees you in these legal proceedings. What is the nature of these proceedings as this may also impact on the way he is acting towards you?
This blog is so well written and such an eye opener. I’m amazed.
I first tried to leave N after a 4 day ST. He talked me easily back in with excuses about “work” (heh). I knew it was ST though. Several weeks later I tried again to break up over text. It wasn’t out of the blue–I’d been pulling away. He immediately launched a text tirade of incredible, mean threats. Chilled me to the bone. I tried NC. I didn’t know if it was bluster. He hoovered immediately with a calm, apologetic explanation which I bought. From that point on I’d have a week of “nice” then awful escalating to threatening physical menace. I maintained NC for a few weeks after the last threat only to have him hoover every few days about something of his he wanted returned. He was threatening at first and once I sent it, super kind. I don’t think I gave him much fuel but did crack a little and complimented him, just to make nice. But I can tell he seems preocuppied and targeting new supply? He didn’t reply to me immediately and was generally curt.
I’m going to try to maintain NC for good now. Is he a Mid or Greater? What’s the best tip for NC now?
Thank you so much. This blog is incredible.
Hello Sail Away, thank you for your compliments, they are appreciated. Thanks for sharing your experience. It is difficult to say what he is based on what you have written so far, but the use of ST and threats does point to either Mid or Greater, I would need more information. The best tip for NC is to read my books No Contact, Black Hole, Fuel and Smeared to start with. Pleased you are on board.
Thank you HG. I will look into those. I must have read 35 blog posts in a row after discovering your blog yesterday. Thanks for the insight.
No problem Sail Away, I am pleased you are having a good read.
When this book comes out, I would very much like to order it. I will watch for it’s release! (I know you are a Greater Narcissist, and therefore would not stoop to such lowly levels, but if you ever change your mind, I might know a Lesser-Mid Range Narcissist who’s *ss you could whoop; but no, I do not wish for you to get your hands dirty in such an escapade. Keep your hands clean…which… yes… was your own decision, of course 🙂
Thank you!
Tamara
Hi HG! I have taken your advice and have finished reading FUEL and I have successfully not posted anything to social media that would encourage my ex to reach out to me. I will confess that I still look on hers but I now look at her quotes and know they are all lies and all she wants is a reaction out of me. You taught me that! Thanks you. They have decreased and the last one was a day ago saying that she loves me but it’s killing her so this is goodbye. I didn’t really believe that was a goodbye. Whatever. Today I got a letter in the mail with a ring that I bought for her. I have the matching one with the word HOPE on it. She had it on her keychain. That brought on a flood of tears and now I’m afraid of what she has in her toolbox. Do you always have a list of things that you will keep doing to get that fuel? Do you have it calculated how long you will wait for the next hoover? She has plenty of fuel because she just got married a month ago. When should I expect the next attempt? And I would like to ask what you do with gifts that your exes gave you. I did read your EXORCISM book and it was one of your best ones. I have gotten rid of the main things that trigger me. Thanks again for listening.
Hello SW, good move on not posting anything to social media. I hope you found Fuel of use to you. Hopefully you will be able to resist the habit of reading her social media. This is what must be done in order to purge yourself of the effect that she has on you. The methodology adopted with regards to hoovers depends on the type of narcissist that you are dealing with. The Greater will have a more extensive portfolio of manipulations that will be deployed against you. Given where you are in the Narcissistic Relationship I would advocate that you read Smeared, Black Hole, Devil’s Toolkit and Manipulated in order to understand and prepare yourself for what else lies ahead. The gifts that I receive from exes are retained for the purpose of use in hoovers. I am pleased you found Exorcism to be of use to you, you will need to apply its principles repeatedly. It appears to me that she will hoover you again quite soon as she is making a concerted effort against you. However, if you maintain your defences and do not respond at all, the hoovers will soon diminish. This is because the Thought Fuel which she obtains will soon reduce and she will also apply herself to her primary source more readily when you are not forthcoming.
Hello HG, FUEL was excellent! It answered so many questions. Now I know how much fuel I was to her. I was at the top of your rankings. I also understand how you believe that we are yours for life. I believe she will keep trying to remind me of that. But thanks to all your advice I’m not going to let her. Do female narcs fall more in one particular category? Mid-range or Greater? I just finished Manipulated last night and I found it a little ironic that the last chapter was about hope and that was the ring that I wore for her. “Hope dies last” was the best ending and thanks to you mine is diminishing. Devil’s Toolkit is up next for me. I have found all of your books immensely helpful and I thank you again for all your help. ❤️
Thank you SW I am pleased that Fuel answered many of your questions. Yes, she will keep exerting her notion of control over you. Female Ns can appear in any category of narcissist, just like their male counterparts. Do keep reading as it will result in your understanding increasing and then you will be able to achieve freedom.
Does “lesser” or “greater” refer to the level of self awareness or the level of intelligence? You describe a lesser as being capable of inflicting serious physical damage (as the ex NPD did on me) so I assume that it doesn’t refer to how or where they sit on the spectrum. I believe Satan (as I call the ex) to be a Sociopath and her rage is all consuming, pure, blind, reactive fury, with no higher brain involvement.
It is a combination of both intelligence and awareness Mark. All of our kind can use physical violence but when one has to speak generally about the various schools, it is the Lesser Narcissist who relies on physical violence to a greater extent than the Mid-Range or the Greater, albeit that is not to say that those schools do not use it at all.
Is there any differences in how a Vulnerable Narcissist would handle all this? Do you have any information on those kind of Narcs?
I don’t categorise narcissists as vulnerable Tamara, the closest would be the Victim Narcissist who is either a Lesser or a Mid-Range so you could consider the position of a vulnerable narcissist from those perspectives. There will more on the victim narcissist in the brilliantly and imaginatively titled The Victim Narcissist which is a book I am working on. It will deal with how the VN deals with No Contact.
very exact word by word on how it is with a greater.
HG would like to know your thoughts on my situation. we were both married, were just going to have fun. i was what you say they look for, epath, co-dependant, always willing to help someone, fix someone etc.so we really didnt have a full blowen relationship. gave me a senereo to feel guilty about / want to help him. he got alot of money out of me, then i said enough is enough. he turned people at work against me, everyone looked down on me and not on him. he pushed me to far so i had to quit my job of 25 years. half way through i had figured out what he was. and i have had no contact. i have no contact with anyone i worked with, couldnt trust anyone. someone told me after i quit he was really quiet, and not himself. i said hes probley dreaming up the next lie for the next person. i think he was in my phone, and computer. i know he hoovered me with some people i hadnt cut loose yet. but thats pretty much done now. i dont need to work so quitting didnt bother me. so do you think he got wounded? you’ve probley had this blog for a long time but it never came up before. at first it scared me, i had flash backs and found out more than what i knew before. but i soon got over that. still cant believe you’d like to help us. i think he is a greater. with him you would never see it coming. everyone worships him at work.i do feel sorry for his wife and children. especially after you said you’d run a mile away from children. there life must be hell, like everyone else that gets to close to him. i could be wrong but i think he knows i could careless about him and i dont think he would try and contact me unless he wants to get wounded some more. theres a huge amount of age difference between us. the only thing that i didnt understand is why everyone went against me, and not equally against him. it did bother me to banish the people from my life, cuz thats not me but they couldnt be trusted anymore because of him. my life goes on with or without them. and i found out who my real friends are. not everyone judged me. when i was still at work someone told him something i said and he went into a rage, swore, threw things on his desk. i thought he should have gotten fired for that but it didnt happen. someone told me he got fired now, i dont believe it, it came from one of his people. and had to end it by blaming it on me. i also was pretty good at not reacting to him, i wasnt going to be the one getting fired at work. and also knew you shouldnt react, stay neutral. i had started reading alot of books. but your site here is the most helpful.
Hello INM, thank you for your post and your kind words
1. He is a narcissist.
2. The traits suggested point to either MId-Range or a Greater;
3. Everybody believed him and not you because you were subjected to a smear campaign;
4. You resigning from your job and going no contact will have wounded him
5. He certainly appears to operate numerous lieutenants (telling you he lost his job was a proxy hoover)
You know what you are dealing with and how to handle him.
Confused again. N2 could be mid to greater. He used many of these lines. He only came to see me 1 time after I moved. That was bc BIL sold me some furniture and my dad and he planned a trip out. N2 couldn’t have that so he went instead of dad. I got to hear what a. Ahole BIL was. Peas in a pod N2 and (now late) BIL
Then after the break up (escape) N2 kept pestering me to let him visit. “How about a long weekend? So and so is coming in and said I can come with.” or better, “The Wings are playing the Hawks” My response, no thank you…or I have plans. Too late.
Smh. At least I trusted my gut, or whatever it was.
Valuable posts.
Me too 1jaded1 based on this D sounds more a greater then midrange…I am awaiting my post to come out of moderation for HGs views on him.
Well, that was interesting reading HG. I must say, there is a certain amount of pleasure in knowing what is going on behind the façade of you folk! A certain…. enjoyment in knowing that you can infact be deeply wounded even if you dont show us!
You spend all this time beating down the souls of your victims! Making them feel like they are nothing, worthless, never good enough for you, never able to please you just right, never able to feel the return of so much of what they give of themselves to you, beaten into a place where the do infact believe themselves to be defective!! I guess you can’t blame us in return for feeling satisfaction at the thought of your wounded sorry self in a depression haze!
Shame that this is only a ‘rare’ occurance. Perhaps through what people learn from you here, the number of dragons being slayed will begin to increase – ten fold!! Here’s to hoping I say……
Excellent post CJ, yes, these dragons that torment us all, I am up for slaying some Beasts.
HG, I wonder if you can help me clarify if my ex is a narc, and if so what level. I was involved with S for a year. He told me before we began that there were things I didn’t know about him – things that should scare me off. I asked him much, much later what he was referring to and he said “his depression (I believe he is bipolar, as was his mother), his moods, his alcoholism.” I now wonder if he left out one critical adjective. After two weeks of wonderful, the “issues” began. Little things I did would seem enormous to him and would mean huge battles between us. His anger seemed disproportionate to the situation. This went on for a few months. I found myself disappearing. I found myself saying ANYthing to avoid these confrontations. I would tell him what he needed to hear, reassure him constantly, pacify him, walk on eggshells. It was becoming emotionally abusive. At one point he became very drunk, for which I was blamed since something I did caused him to want to drink….anyway, while drunk, he became a bit violent and slugged a soda can out of my hands with his fist and all of his might. This happened in my apartment. I left in a hurry, feeling fearful of what might happen if I stayed. At this point our relationship became more tumultuous and I began to feel more and more emotionally abused. He frequently had “melt downs” and temper tantrums. We broke up a couple of times, got back together, only to break up again. We were apart for three months at one point. I approached him at the end of the the three months because I missed the good parts of our relationship so badly. There were good parts! Wonderful parts, magical parts. Anyway…when we spoke again at the end of the three-month separation, he told me he thought I was a narc because I showed a lack of empathy when he was upset by something I said or did. I replied “that’s interesting, because I was thinking the same thing about you.” He quickly said “no” and continued on with why he thought I was a narc. I am a definite empath. Things I’ve noticed about him: He lacks empathy and compassion. He is very self-aware of his feelings, but seemed oblivious to mine. He would go off on tangents where he put me and my actions down for hours at a time and was seemingly oblivious to my tears and my shutting down. At the end of his tangents, he would sometimes notice my suffering and tell me he was sorry. Sometimes not. Once I told him I was suicidal and his response to me was “don’t tell your therapist that because she’ll be required to hospitalize you.” A week or so later, I asked him why he neglected to ask me if I was still suicidal and he replied “I assumed if you were, you would have told me.”
After we got back together after our three-month separation, he was on his best behavior for about two weeks. Then the “issues” started again. I dealt with them for two weeks, then told him I was done. I haven’t spoken to him or heard from his since. I have heard through the grapevine that he wants no contact with me because “it would hurt too much.” I never want to see or talk to him again. I am truly done.
Your opinion would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much.
Hello Kat, thank you for your post. I believe that your ex is a narcissist. The lack of empathy, the furious rages, the disproportionate responses,the switching between good and bad and the projection all point to that being the case. His lack of control would suggest a Lesser however the fact that he suggested that you are a narcissist, your reference to him being self-aware and the fact that periods of the relationship were wonderful and magical points to him being a Greater. I suspect that the position is as follows:-
1. He is a Greater who actually is able to control his fury but is content to deliberately allow you to be subjected to this heated fury to further his aims; or
2. He is a Greater whose rage only manifests when he has been drinking and it is the drinking which causes the loss of control which would usually be found in a Lesser. The drinking if you will strips him of this Greater trait.
Thank you so much H.G. I appreciate your time and your wisdom. Reading your blog has been incredibly helpful to me. Would love to know which of your book you recommend I read first. Thank you again.
You are welcome Kat. Given your circumstances I would suggest Black Flag, Black Hole and No Contact to begin with.
What does the greater experience when he chooses to discard and gets no reaction? Does he just give up completely?
No he will not care. You have been discarded. He has somebody else who is the apple of his eye now.
Thankyou HG! Bought your book by the way….
You know when you approach the dragon/narc does it help if my body language is not fearful? What if I come with a serious face? If I tell the facts of the matter that he is aware of where does this lead?
Hello NFM thank you for purchasing the books, you will find them of considerable interest and use.
If you are talking about the cessation of the Formal Relationship it is best just to go no contact and let us find out later.
If you do want to tell us then adopted a neutral position will remove fuel and weaken us but you will face the full force of ignited fury.
If you mean in your dealings generally with your N, if you have to interact then remove emotion from those dealings and you will remove the fuel.
Mine doesn’t seem to fit anywhere…. The first time I left, he organised a laptop for me so I could still play WoW, and let me go. But then he implemented silent treatment, and didn’t even ask to see the kids. This time though, there was a bit of a ploy to remain friends, a bit of an intense and pleading gaze in his eyes at the last “goodbye”, but otherwise, he still just let me go. Mind you, he was preparing to leave anyway, after having cheated and trying to make everything in the relationship my fault.
There has been no hoover, no contact other than what is needed for custody and settlement of assets, and no malice (that I can see). He has been silent. On the other hand, I have been pretty strong in my no contact/grey rock policy. Basically, he didn’t care. He never cared for me and didn’t care about losing me…. his wife of 17 years. I can’t imagine there was another primary source having been married that long.
I don’t understand…? I can’t seem to fit him into any category with any certainty, but he has a lot of mid-range characteristics, and maybe some of the greater, not properly fitting either one. Maybe he is only a mild mid-range, covert, somatic.
I don’t know why I feel the need to categorise him anyway… he did what he did and that is enough. Or should be. I guess knowing where he fits would help in predicting and understanding his behaviours. On the other hand, I know him better than anyone else on this planet – even the secret parts that he tried to hide – so a label is only going to be superfluous to that.
Hello Flighty One, yes it is the case that being able to categorise what he is does help with predicting and understanding his behaviours, but as you will appreciate, with any categorisation there are occasional exceptions. It most likely that if you see many of his behaviours fitting that of a mid-range and a few from a greater then he is likely to be an Upper Mid-Range. From your first two paragraphs I would certainly see him as fitting MId-Range.
With regard to the laptop, did he have it in his possession before passing it to you? If so, there might be software he has installed that allows him to access it remotely. Something you may wish to consider.
Thank you for responding HG. He certainly did have that laptop in his possession first. He spent a while updating it and fire-walling it and whatnot before he gave it to me (or so I thought!!). But this was over ten years ago now. That lappy is well and truly done away with at this point. He was a Linux systems guru for a long time although he hopped from job to job never stabilising anywhere, but he is now a federal police officer. Frightening combination when I think he takes his custody block with the kids in my home. And there’s not much I can do about it unfortunately.
You are welcome FO. I daresay that computer will have been used to your disadvantage in some way especially as you note he is IT savvy. Good job it is done for or he may have affected your WoW ranking!
Fm
The one I’ve been waiting for – thank you HG. Answers everything. Yup he is totally closer to the greater than the mid. But not great haha
You’re welcome.
Not all who leave and ” deliver the message to the dragon” are fearful, timid and , as you painted them, basically spineless. Some of us are Dragon Slayers.
No you misunderstand, that is how we perceive you. We operate frequently from a different perspective. That is why so much of what we do makes little sense to you, but does to us.
The dragon is merely another illusion created to maintain the facade. So the greater will lower himself to appease his fuel source, even though not accepting blame. He will appear to do what looks suspiciously. Like grovelling by complimenting and future faking to beg the target to remain.
The greater apparently has more stamina in communication with said target to try to persuade them to remain In Relationship. Not unlike someone who actually loves another and does not wish to lose that person from their life for genuine reasons. The Greater has honed that ability to mirror as well, for his greater good. Or the good of the Greater!!!
This Dragon Tale, is making D sound more like a GCN then a MCN.
He would shh me into submission by saying I was being silly, of course he loves me, of course he supports me and of course there is no one else. He would effortlessly explain it all away, he never hesitated. He always knew what to say to make me listen and believe him. To stop the conversation from questioning him to making it about me and diverting away from what he had done.
When I left without warning, he quickly went to his supplementary sources and is using them to repair the wound I created.
He said something to me In the past, that no has ever got to him the way I do. Make him Feel certain things…..so you think a Greater Narcissist can be overwhelmed at all by the sensation of foreign emotions…compassion, love….positive emotions that were previously expunged from them? Do you think he knew how much I loved him and he felt torn In What he was compelled to do to obtain fuel? By betraying me.
This certainly was an extensive and expansive read….beyond thorough.
Thank you HG. Why do you think he was mid range and not greater…simply the use of silent treatments?
He indeed will have known how much you apparently loved him because this was the fuel that he required. I don’t think he felt torn in what he was compelled to do, since fuel is all and he knew what he had to do to achieve it. I don’t see him being torn.
Greaters use silent treatments as well although they are a hall mark of the Mid Range. I think his extensive use of them, the way he interacted with you and the lack of out and out malice point to him being Mid Range rather than Greater.
Apparently, was not the case. I did and he knew I loved him. That would make sense just more acting and fakery On his behalf then, for claiming he was anguished Over entangling me. Yes, it is true, he may have said hateful and hurtful things but he would not do things out of malice, mostly out of reaction. He certainly was not evil.
Thank you for reply HG.
You are welcome.
A time when the princess slays the dragon? You’re rewriting fairy tales HG, however, this fairy tale can be translated into reality. 💁
My heart aches reading this, I can still feel the fear seize me from all the times I’d approach my ex, with sorrow in my eyes, with the words that hurt to say but I could not deny how I felt, and how each time he’d smile with his cute irresistible charm, remind me what a terrible idea it was for us to ever separate, hold me, look deeply in my eyes, remind me how much he loves me, he can forgive and forget, he never stopped loving me, so on and so on. When I finally made that escape his threats were straight to the heart of my fears, our kids, finances, I’d regret it, the looming knowledge he had a wider circle of friends, and he would undoubtedly be the victim, I would be heartless, and alone. The cruelty he then would put me through there after, all later admitting yes all of it was done to make me jealous, to make it hard, so I would crumble, and come crawling back, he was convinced I was not strong enough, and boy was he filled with rage that he couldn’t get me to return from charm to threats to causing great suffering, and he would say ….”You know it could all be better, you know the answer, we can make this all go away, don’t you want to stop hurting?” I can’t remember it all now, but yes a thousand different phrases for the same thing…..”come back to me and all this madness will stop, you know where you belong, stop being stubborn and come home.”
Having tried to enforce boundaries unsuccessfully I did not bend but endured the tantrums, not taking the bait of the malicious manipulation, pity plays and out right tyratcicel demands. Having heard all sorts of covert threats about nonconsensual cameras pictures and videos. I recorded all of those conversations and so many more where he slandered his family, friends and employers.
I’ve ALREDY been to the police, using threats like this is the equivalent to blackmail in the states, weather the blackmailer be demanding money, property or services (staying in a relationship OR I’ll destroy you) is nothing short of human trafficking.
No. The dragon gets no explanation, no dear John letter, no chance to make more promises, NOTHING.
I walk out the door smiling one day and you NEVER see me again. Blocked at every turn. In fact if said dragon’s car comes through my gate the guards will detain him until the police arrive. I press all the charges and the dragon will be going to prison.
No contact, NO explanation,
I don’t care how the dragon “feels”, his friends and patsies are all cut out too. Primary gone NO warning. The End.
Ever had that happen HG?
You have played that well Elizabeth. Where someone has tried to escape me (which has not been often) they make the mistake of telling me so I am able to lay on the charm etc to woo them once again. The key with instigating no contact is to get on with it and not tell us, this will at least give you a head start and also avoids the risks associated with being physically proximate to us when you tell us that it is over. It may be tempting to say goodbye in person, either because you want the last word or you feel an emotional need to do it because you have to explain yourself or you feel sorry for us. All of those reasons are understandable but they are not worth pandering to given the risks of being physically proximate at the point of cessation.
What if the narrsistic person has such of a temper with strangulation involved. Criminal orders broken. And I have remained no contact on my end but he still continues to stalk and hire people to watch me going on for almost two years? How come he is not finding another source to fuel his fire and continues at me. Where does this lead too? Does it end. Why can’t he let me go
He will be getting fuel from elsewhere but he clearly wants it from you as well and has a score to settle with you. How did the Formal Relationship end? Did you escape or did he discard you?
I escaped wit his child whom he is not aloud to see at all . There has been abuse on our child in common by my narc. Child in common is only 5. I got pregnant 3 months into knowing my narc. It was said “I’m going to get you pregnant so you never leave me” I and my child both have ptsd. Panic anxzioty disorder. Aparently he is not refueling somewhere else. He is relentless. My narc has has homicidal tendicies. What score does he have to settle? I want to be left alone. 11 charges so fAR on my narc in two counties. 15 violations. What am I to exspect. I am testifying soon against this man. What score! What is the next stage for him. I get hit on a weekly basis with things.
Hello Red, presumably you have ended the Formal Relationship with him and he continues to try to contact you? Have you been able to implement no contact? If not, why is that? He will keep coming back because he wants fuel from you. He keeps coming back because something activates the Hoover Trigger (see the articles Spheres of Influence) for more on this. Once a hoover is triggered, the Hoover Execution Criteria must be met for the hoover to take place. He evidently meets the criteria and this is probably because it is easy for him to contact you, he knows he can get fuel from you and there are no obstacles. The next stage is he will keep hovering you if the Hoover Trigger is activated and the HEC are met. You need to look at ways (which you can implement) to reduce those risks so he will be forced to seek fuel elsewhere and leave you alone.
Hi HG, I’m not so sure about what your saying. There has been absolutely no contact on my end what so ever. I have read threw the speres I’m not sure where I’m at? Having trouble with that one. Each time my narc tries to contact me and breaks the orders he knows I am serious and he gets arrested and a violation on him. He knows the consequences but continues to do it or sends other people out to do it such as private investigators or friends. I have no contact with his side of his family and no contact with his friends. I have a small group of friends it’s very small which he has,stopped harrassing them a while back. As per my family I have none. I’m in fase two myself of truama I let go of hate we are no longer detached he cannot even feed off my energy of hate. Now I hurt. Hurt of how this man took my life and child’s and did this and I will no longer will be the same. But he still continues. For him going to court is like a date. For me it’s like seeing the devil. I’m not a cunt piece of shit,shit under his feet,whore, stupid have a box of rocks in my head,cum bucket, bitch. Those things were never me. When I met him I was strong and fit. I should of known I was hand picked on our first date he told me I was the one. Now I’ve made it our of hell and I’m still going threw hell. And this man is on pain killers steroids tostrome and I’m going to say drugs because I know everything about him he’s probably numbing himself to no end and unraveling at this point by the way he looked the last of I seen him. This man has a bad temper his eyes go black when gets pysical and he lunges and attacks with no warning. Has a fascination for weapons doesn’t believe in the law has a thing for only petite blondes. So please tell me how am I suppose to get him to refuel elsewhere when I’m completely ignoring him having fed into any of his crap. Standing tall. And I’m not giving in as I’ve done plenty of that in the past. Now please be very blunt with me as you can for no one wants to be and tell me what stage am I at with him. I’m going in to testify against this man. And why can’t he leave me alone. What does he want from me! My soul? Please HG please be honest.
A Great description of the dragon that controls this parasitic world. compare this fantastic Article to a god of any religion and you would find it identical!
Indeed and thank you.
My initial goodbye to my narc was done over the phone. She called me every name in the book. She told me she hated me as I say there and cried. This was before I knew anything about her being a narcissist so when she told me that I had lost her forever and I would never have her back I believed I would never hear from her again. Two weeks later she contacted one of my friends and proceeded to tell her how great her life was going and wanted to know if I was truly happy. She then had two of her friends text me to tell me that they were concerned about me and wanted to know if I was ok. One week later she texted me and I couldn’t resist. I texted her back and said I wanted to meet her in person. She denied me that at first. At this time all of my researching had finally given me what I was looking for. So when I met her I thought I was prepared for what was to come.
At first she was telling me all of her new plans and then she went into how I hurt her ,how I turned into everything I said I wasn’t, how I was a liar, and asked how u I could get up every morning and look myself into the mirror. She was mad … I had told her what she was and told her about my reservations about being her second wife and then she said ” well I was going to legally marry you” and tried to tell me all about how our life could turn out. I just read that above how you dangle the promised land in front of us. I guess that was next in line. This was all in a two hour span and I suggested I walk her to her car where she professed how I was the love of her life and not to give up on us as she was kissing me and then she got me in her car, on her lap, with her tongue in my mouth. Sounds so stupid as I am writing this!!! I know she has put out a smear campaign againstme, putting my name on Facebook, and she is sending me quotes daily on Pinterest. She dedicated a whole board to me in one day with 125 new quotes. They go from hate to love. That goodbye was almost 4 months ago. When will she stop????? And what am I dealing with? All I wonder is when will the phone call come in or a text. I get stronger everyday reading this blog and everyone’s stories but no where near strong enough to resist that kind of contact. Thanks you for listening HG and everyone else.
You are welcome Snow White. If you keep entering her spheres of influence in some way and she perceives that there are good grounds for a hoover she will keep going. You are evidently an excellent fuel source for her, hence why she keeps hovering and I suspect that when you met after the goodbye, your reactions have her fuel and this has spurred her on. You need to present yourself as an unattractive proposition to her. Block the daily quotes, block all other social media, increase your effort in maintaining no contact, think about ways in which you can make it more difficult for her to try to contact you. Ensure you do not respond to her and if you happen to have some contact you must ensure you do not provide any fuel. A combination of all of this will mean that she will start to see that you are not the easy target you once were for fuel. Her need for fuel will drive her to seek it elsewhere and lessen her attempts to hoover it from you.
Thank you so much HG!!! I appreciate you listening and answering my questions.
Pleasure.
Just another note HG. After reading your responses today I am finally able to to say and believe that she USED me. I was still holding out for hope that that wasn’t the case. Even after all of the reading I have done and finding the answers I was looking for, I still was in disbelief. I want to give you the credit for my breakthrough that I have had this morning. It hurts like hell but at the same time it feels like I can start to move in. I can’t thank you enough.
Thank you SW I appreciate that. Yes, she did indeed use you. It is a typical empathic response to try to find the good in somebody (in this case not want to believe that you have been used) and also if you believe that it also amounts to a criticism of yourself and nobody likes to be criticised, therefore even a “normal” would look to find an alternative reason to explain the behaviour. I am pleased to note that you have achieved a breakthrough in your thinking. Now build on that.
How do you feel HG when you find out that you are blocked from one of your exes? Are you encouraged to find another way to contact them, does it ignite your fury, or are you just ready to move on to another one that is a lot easier? I don’t want her to retaliate in any way towards me or take revenge. And I have taken your advice. I also am reading FUEL right now. Thank you and I hope you are enjoying your weekend. 😄
Enjoy the read SW and thank you for your kind comments.
If an ex has blocked me I will consider alternative methods of approaching this person but it is subject to how fuelled I am, whether I want them to return as a primary source (i.e. I am unleashing an Initial Grand Hoover after this person has escaped) whether they have entered a sphere of influence and how much hoover fuel I believe I will get from them. As a Greater I am more likely to hammer away for longer but I will assess the situation and if need be I will go elsewhere.
I am living all of this… I HATE seeing my narc crumble, it is killing me and yet I cannot be the one to bring him back to life.
Maybe I shouldn’t say this but I still love my narc. I didn’t leave him because I hated him, I left him because he has no control over his rage… at that moment, it was the only time I was able to leave and I ran.
Your sentiments DC are entirely understandable because of the type of person that you are. It is knowing to not act on them that is the key.
DC,
I loved every narc I was with. I’m still friends with all but 2. These men were not violent. If you love someone, truly, u keep a piece of them. I had great times with these people. I had bad times too. I just moved past the bad and forgave and still stayed friend, there were some hoovers, but I would laugh it off or remind them that I know them and it’s not working. So don’t feel bad about feeling something for another, it natural. You spent time with this man in good and bad ways, it just turned out the bad outweighed the good, so you had to bail. There will always be a replacement player.
You can add some rolling tears to this dragon’s face, alternated by stinging fire, alternated again by some bitter tears, and finally his fake concern/wishes for everybody’s best wellbeing.
Fair point Dee.
I don`t want to slay the dragon though, HG. He`s cute. I`d like to bring him home with me, actually. I am certain he would keep me warm on long, Canadian-winter nights.
I know I missed the point entirely, but…dragon.
Oh I know you never miss the point B&T. It all depends on which point one wants to take.
You’re right, I didn`t miss the point. I just got distracted by that perfect, beautiful, brilliant, magnificent image (not the dragon…) 🙂
He he he, I love dragons too! <3
Indeed you do.
More like a flipping Demon.
I wouldn’t want anyone to crumble…nobody deserves that…
You have to make them crumble, otherwise, they keep coming back to destroy you. Like the killer in a horror movie. You must anhilate them, grind their ashes to dust. After you’ve done that, spread their remains throughout every corner of the earth and pour some into the sea so that there is no possibility of them regenerating and coming back to suck out the remainder of your soul.