Bare Necessity
I didn’t ask for this you know. I know you did not either but for once let’s not make this about you and let’s talk about me, yes? I never asked to be created so that each and every day I must gather the fuel that is necessary for my existence. Yes, I must eat, I must drink water and I must breathe the air, just as you do, but for me I have another staple requirement of daily living. I must have fuel. Did you choose to always needs food and water? No, you did not. Neither did I. I did not choose to require this fuel either but without it I will cease to exist. What I have created in order to survive in this world will come toppling down and that will be the end of me. How far would you go to eat? At first it is simple enough is it not? You go to the grocery store or you order online from the supermarket and acquire the ingredients to make a meal or receive a pre-cooked one. You chop, you peel, you mash and you stir and you make that meal. A hundred thousand different recipes to choose from. Instead you may remove the packaging, pierce the cling film and pop it in the over or the microwave. Either way you have food, ready to eat and to sustain you. But what if you had no money to acquire this food, how would you quell the rumblings in your stomach? Perhaps you might ask to be given food from neighbours, from food banks or left overs at supermarkets. It is demeaning but you need to eat don’t you, so what does a little pride matter so long as your stomach is filled? However, what if that charity ends? What if the benevolence of friends and neighbours dries up? What would you do then? What if there are no friends and no neighbours? Would you look to survive on berries you find by the roadside, drink the water from a stream? Would that sustain you for long or would you tire of that? Would you scavenge through the bins outside a supermarket for food that has been thrown out but is perfectly edible? Is that stealing? Perhaps not. Would you cope with the stares of pity and disdain from those who saw you surfing a dumpster?
Would you steal from the shops in order to quell the hunger pangs? Snatch a loaf from a bakery, sneak into a house and steal that cooling pie or rifle through the cupboards in order to find something to eat. What if there is no edible food in the dumpster, would you remove the mould and eat what you find, risking illness? What if the supermarkets ran out of food and there was nowhere to steal it from? Would you scavenge from the orchards until that fruit ran out? Would you catch fish or hunt a lamb or grab a chicken in order to cook and eat it over an open fire? What if the usual sources of meat began to vanish, having fallen prey to starving wild animals following the collapse of civilisation, what then? Would you try new sources? Would you, driven by hunger hunt down and eat a sparrow or a robin? How about an owl? Seagull? Would you slaughter a fox in order to eat its meat? Where would you stop? Would you eat another human being in order to survive? When needs must where would you draw the line? How far would you go to feed yourself and your loved ones? Begging, growing you own, stealing, savagery, cannibalism? Do you have a limit or when the chips are down and your stomach is knotted with the agony of starvation would there be no limit? How far would you go? Would you fight another person for a packet of rice? Beat someone up in order to steal their hoard of windfalls? Would you consider their loss of their food source and their injuries an acceptable consequence of your own necessary survival? Would this become collateral damage in the pursuit of survival? Abhorrent as it may sound, I should imagine, when the need really arises, that you would go beyond the unpalatable in order to survive.
Now replace food with the need for fuel and you will understand that I have no choice other than to gather this fuel from different sources and in different ways throughout the course of each day. The consequences which arise may seem regrettable to you but they are purely the result of this need for me to gain fuel. I did not ask to have to do this, but the way I have been created makes it so. In the same way that you would fight to ensure your own survival, rather than curling up and dying in a hole, so must I. Does that make me what would be regarded as a bad person for just doing what I need to in order to exist? I suggest that it does not. I know that what I do has consequences for others. I am not blind nor am I a fool. I understand fully the devastation that I cause as I tear through someone else’s life like a whirlwind, sucking everything in, hurling it about and then discarding it broken and shattered. I have heard the complaints, the stories, the recollections and the accounts. I have heard the cries of dismay, the wails of misery, the screams of terror and the slow sobs of pain. I know what is caused by my actions but what choice do I have? I do not set out to achieve these things but they must always arise as a consequence of what I must do.
I feel no guilt nor remorse. I am devoid of those emotions. Another consequence of the way I have been created. I feel no shame in these actions, no pity for those who suffer from my behaviours and no sense of empathy for those who are remorselessly cut down by my machinations. I am not burdened by such emotions so I do not toss and turn at night, I do not have my sleep peppered by nightmares of torment, I do not sit in anguish and seek absolution for everything I have done and everything that I am to do. Those concepts are not applicable to me. What I do is invite you to understand me. I want you to understand what I am, what I must do and what arises from this and if you were in my shoes then you would do the same. This does not make me a bad person does it? I am a good man who is having to do a bad job. Yes?
122 thoughts on “Bare Necessity”
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Thank you for the invitation. I understand you.
The arrogance is something you literally hide behind…when someone is truly secure within themselves they do not feel the need for such pretence…I’ll tell you a story of a physically beautiful, intelligent, artist, musically talented, charming, life of every party, most sought after and superior being (in his own mind). Lived his life to the max, cheated, lied, abused those who loved him over and over again. His sense of entitlement was unmatched. He carried on to the next victim leaving behind a trail of heartbreak and devastation that he never gave a second thought to. Many warned him that some day life would catch up to him and put him in his place..which of course he laughed off time and time again. Fast forward to a time when he was getting older but still able to woo the masses, he having to simply use the restroom in a public place, his foot caught on the lip of a carpet and he tu,bled down some stairs and smashed the left side of his brain on a cement wall. He was left in a coma for a week in that time the surgeons operated and removed the skull on that side due to the brain swelling,,,,he died on the table…(this was documented) and came back to life but not the same. He had quite a bit to say about his near death experience, but his faculties would sadly never be the same. He lost his real estate investments, his diamonds, his multitude of girlfriends, essentially everything. In desperation he tried to reach out to his only adult children he had abandoned years earlier and they would have nothing to do with him. He used to pride himself on being able to outsmart anyone when now he could barely remember whT he said 5 minutes ago. Long story short, he eventually died alone, face down, in his own blood and feces in a bachelor apartment funded by the government. They say it took a while for him to die as he lay there in a heat wave for over a month. When I was notified and had to identify him as they were peeling him off the floor to transfer to a body bag, I couldn’t help but wonder at his last years living the way he did not to mention his
Last hours…losing his ability to con and manipulate and hurt people, to the point that there was not a soul alive who cared if he lived or died..how must he have suffered do you think..if that isn’t Karma I don’t know what is!
Charlie, were you one of the children since you were asked to identify the body? Whether or not that was Karma, the Universe definitely took care of righting a wrong on that ending!
No. Alter paradigms.
You would do well to be interested to know, suffice to say I’ve been witness to the before and after…believe me karma will certainly wipe that smug smile off your face and everything you have ever tried to avoid by hurting innocents will come at you ten fold…it is sad really, such a waste of your time in the end it was all for nothing..you cannot live forever and you cannot run from your evil forever…you carry on now like the proverbial cat who caught the mouse…this all stems from extreme weakness on your part I’m afraid..you think this gives you power when in actual fact it makes you a weak and sad individual…you chase that one thing you can never find ..all of your life…tearing down good people is amusing to you, feeds you and you’re desperate, desperate need…what a life…I have to say as pitiful as your existence is..I know for the narcs in my life, I would have never wished for them what they got in the end, even I couldn’t have come up with such sweet revenge..you think you are the End all be all?..Think again honey…think long and hard…
Karma is an invention by those who have been defeated to make themselves feel better.
Karma, hoping bad to happen to others who you feel deserves it and these are your thoughts, then bad is manifested in oneself. In my understanding or interpretation of the word Karma is to have good thoughts for yourself and thus a peaceful mind.
Karma is not for anyone to give out.
Perhaps we are confusing karma with laws of attraction: When we do “good” things we attract those same kind of acts from others, when we do “bad” we will also attract that kind of behaviour. The only problem is this kind of karma also benefits the narcissists. Therefore when they give us the moon (golden period) we give that back and more. When they treat you like shit, you respond consequently with anger, sadness, etc, which also provides them with fuel. So it’s a win win scenario for them and what we call karma normally applies to people who care.
I still believe, though, that you reap what you sow and when the time comes, when they will be unable to keep cultivating positive fuel, the negative one will go stale and won’t be enough to keep them operative… especially when the negative fuel sources end up just ignoring the waste their executioner has become.
Of course this would apply to all but our host, since we all know he will never end fuelless and ignored;)
Indeed.
Oxford educated HG?
Correct.
I truly believe in Karma only because I have seen it first hand…it is humbling and horrifying to witness especially those reeping the rewards of their evil cruelty to others. The one thing you say you fear the most is the very thing you inflict on others. You say you will do everything in your power to keep this “creature” at bay so it won’t devour you. Your arrogance and superiority seems never ending and your kind never seems to get their just reward, oh but they do, and I have seen it. You will one day rot in your own evil, stench and blackness.What you think you are outrunning will and does catch up to you..that one fine day is approaching and for an outsider to witness is truly unholy and sad…i can guarantee you your arrogance will wither away as you beg for one more chance to get it right..just one more chanceONCEE YOU SEE THE IGLINESS THAT AWAITS YOU and your kind.
Hello Charlie, how have you seen karma when karma is what happens in the supposed next life for what has happened in this life? I am interested to know.
Evil comes from the abuse of free will (to quote CW Lewis)
I think you mean CS Lewis and it is a typo, yes?
I used to drink in a pub frequented by CS Lewis (and Tolkien too). No they were not there when I was before anybody gets cheeky.
yes (typo) no cheeks here, just eye rolls
So you say…
Naughty step for you Clarece!
Fiiinnneee!
Are you really created that way or is it from a childhood trauma/neglect? I could say the same experiences caused me to be empathic, but I can change. You know that you hurt people but you lack empathy so you don’t care. That’s why you sleep at night and I’m up with obsessive thoughts. It sounds exhausting to me to live your lifestyle. What if you get sick and you can’t physically get that fuel? Will you shrivel up and die? Thank you for helping me understand your kind because it gives me the strength not to break contact. I wonder though, does it ever bother you that you’ll truly never know what it feels like to love someone on a deep level are you ok with that?
I am forming the view that I have a predisposition to be this way through genetics and this was “unleashed” owing to my childhood.
It is not exhausting but I understand why you look at it that way.
I won’t get sick, but let’s say I did, I could still draw fuel.
I see no need to. It only ever causes people misery and grief from what I can see.
You are welcome. Thank you for reading.
“Misery and grief” …that HG may perhaps be the most profound thing I have read from you. Agreed 100%! Maybe, just maybe …your way being a choice or not, is simply better in a superficial uncaring world? Unscathed from connections that ultimately will end in disappointment?
Wait what? Love only causes misery and grief from what you’ve seen? Maybe you need to see some other examples then. Would you recognize love if you saw it? If you never had it or seen it, how could you?
HG,
Can’t empathy be learned? I’m sure I could learn to not care about anyone but myself, surely the opposite must be true as well? As for love, it only causes misery and grief when one of you gives up and shuts down. If both people stay in it and truly love, trust and respect each other, it can give you the best feeling in the world. I can’t even believe I still believe this after what I just went through. But I’m glad I do.
Hello KW, you may be able to shut down some of your empathic traits to become more self-centred which is in line with the Empathic Supernova but you cannot extinguish your empathy. It may be very low for a number of reasons for a time, but does not vanish.
I am reliably informed that you cannot learn empathy, you cannot inject it to someone like me or my kind.
You can learn to mimic it (empathy) though (?) No one would be the wiser
I have learned to mimic it to a large extent, but I do not feel it.
I cannot learn how to feel it.
How can not finding love bother you if you dont know what youre missing? If you have not felt what the world portrays it to be?I have yet to experience what love is advertised to me as. I know responsibility, affection, guardianship, companionship. I also know lots of people together for a long time who are just resigned to staying together (some waiting for the other to die) and people will point to them as examples of “lasting” love. There are many in the world who are not narcissists that never find love and die alone. Are they not whole or contributing? I will say most of the problems of those I know and some no longer here by their own hand had to do with “love” or more specifically the masterful marketing of it and their inability to attain it. And if love is so great then the more you find it the better it should be right? Then why is it if a woman finds love with several men in her life we deem her to be unable to find “true” love instead of exhalting her ability to find it more than once or at all. You see this “love” in itself is unattainable because the definitions keep changing. You find what you believe to be love and then its judged by others not to be true love or deep love or real love, or lasting love. Its never enough. If you find it great. Enjoy it. But please stop demanding that life is not worth living or they are somehow deficient for those who dont. They are some of the very people unhindered enough to be able to make tough decisions in this world that allow you to occupy your time with matters of “love”.
Some of us are out of our comfort zone with “romanticized/intimate” type love. It doesn’t work for me and I am a product of my environment. Perhaps why some of us feel comfortable with a Narc, as that is what we were taught love is, and it is our “comfort” zone. Does that make any sense? I have a difficult time with words…
Excellent points, NarcAngel.
I find it amusing how many are quick to state that our lives are meaningless because our kind cannot feel and offer love the way it is marketed to society (by our kind no less). The very thing many crave when it comes to love is based on a fiction invented by our kind for the sole purpose of manipulation.
You are on point with your statement, “How can not finding love bother you if you don’t know what you’re missing?”
We do not know what “love” is – either because we were not shown it or because the version of love we were shown is very different from the illusory version flashed on the big screen or sung about it songs.
In the 50 Cent song 21 Questions, he sings, “I love you like a fat kid love cake.” If someone ever said that to me, I would probably kick him or her in the throat while wearing a pair of skates with rusty blades.
Because we do not know what it is and because we know the version most people crave is an illusion, it does not bother us in the slightest that we do not have the ability to give or receive it. We cannot crave, want or miss something we have no understanding for (and thus no real use for).
No.
It is not a need.
It is a corrupted twisted desire.
You have lost all good sense to anything beautiful, pure, clean, and mentally/spiritually healthy, and it has been replaced with crappy events.
That’s your view from your perspective. From mine it is a need.
A NEED or a WANT?
Need.
well i NEED 22 million dollars…. just sayin…
Nothing good comes of gambling.
from your own personal experience no doubt?
No I don’t gamble. I play to win.
no one plays to “loose”, at least not myself
But they invariably do lose. I ensure I do not.
I may have lost the battle but not the war, you?
The battles are always won. The war however is endless.
true that
But that is why i said : IT HAS BEEN REPLACED.
And now it has become a “need”.. is like developing a crave for junk food.
Believe me.
I do not believe that it cannot be change.
It can.
But that is why i said : IT HAS BEEN REPLACED.
And now it has become a “need”.. is like developing a crave for junk food.
Believe me.
I do not believe that it cannot be changed.
It can.
I would call it a necessity instead, not a choice actually. I think after 6 months of education I finally get it. I think I know what the fuel is for you. Your kind is just feeding differently than rest of us. You narcs are like a tapeworm, a parasite.You just feed on emotions, not actual nutrients.
Maria, I would agree only with “It is not a need”…..
It is not a need.. and it is not a “destiny”..
it”s a compulsion that has been ingrained.. builted up with wrong decisions after another after another… no discernment.. giving way to just impulsive ” need “.. and
once it becomes so ingrained.. yes it is difficult to change… but not impossible.
My narcisstist desperately wanted to be good at something. That’s probably something brought from his childhood, to not to feel inadequate, to fulfill his parents expectations towards him. I think some Narcisstist don’t feel the need to change becouse they enjoy being a narcisstist, because they know they good at it. So maybe one of the ways free yourself would be finding something else you’re good at and concentrate all the energy on that thing?
Interesting idea abrokenwing but I am good at lots of things and that is because of what I am.
So the fuel You extract from all things you are good at , the admiration your receive for your writing for example will never be enough? It has to come from a different ‘pumps’ including the one which results in people getting hurt?
Correct.
Politely disagree. What is the first step in correcting Any problem/ mistake in the world? Accountability. That is sine qua non. If you keep assigning blame to an illness or need, there, you are free from any responsibility whatsoever to correct it as well because, well, you cannot help it, isn’t it? That’s what criminals would say too because they simply refuse to take accountability. Some deep despair/ persuasive need “made” them do it, not they themselves. The analogy you gave is that of the need to eat. That has its fundamental fallacies. Here’s how – Every single human being, including a 1 day old baby has hunger, doesn’t need to be taught to feel hungry. This can be called a “natural” need. You say you have been “created” this way (by another person/ terrible experience or even experiences.) Maybe it was even a long period of abuse and not just a solitary unfortunate instance. But. It ended back then. It is no longer a “reality” of your present life or present circumstances. What you have carried forward and are continuing to do so however, are the damages done to you from that episode, way back in history, its chaotic consequences, which first of all till date you suffer and as a result of that others suffer too. Don’t become your baggage, don’t even carry it, simply lose it. So the way that you have been created or “made” by someone else’s horrible doings, can that be un-made? Yes. Absolutely yes. With some sincere persistent effort, lots of honesty and a desire and will to change, but most importantly accountability. I did it, I can’t make my issues an escape/ excuse for what i did. Else i will forever remain a slave to them and never get to experience who i truly am, besides the damage that presently defines me. Now, as soon as i accept this, the blame along with the power that I was giving away to narcissism to make me dance at its whim, I am claiming it right back into my own hands. And now since I have the power back (and not my issues), I am no longer imprisoned anymore and I need no permission to correct my behavior, every single time the demons tempt me to dance with them. And trust me, when you starve the demons, they will die of hunger one day and leave you alone. Lots of love and healing to you.
S,
I applaud your reasoning. What they dont get is that NOT posessing a full range of emotion is inferior and everyone knows a narcissist can’t take that kind of criticism. Let them carry on just as we do. We don’t need them, but they always need us and they hate us for it.
Thanks Anna. I think every person, be it an empath or even a narcissist for that matter is complete by themselves and doesn’t as such “need” another, regardless the stories they tell themselves (Hence the empath is always seeking the narcs approval and the narc is seeking fuel.) The idea that we will always need someone is dis-empowering as we will always be depending on someone to provide and they may or may not deliver. So in essence instead of being responsible for my own happiness, I have put the key to my happiness inside your pocket, and given away my power. Also, Narcissist “feels” wounded, therefore sad, he feels pleased with joy when his ego is stroked, he has a fear of death or being irrelevant and so on. So that means a Narcissist is indeed capable of different emotions and not a robot as some assume. The problem then? They very well feel these for themselves but cannot feel the same for other people aka empathy. Reason? Environmental factors that shaped them and caused this unnatural shut down. Example- if a child is taught to lie by school/ parents/ environmental factors, he will continue to lie and find nothing wrong with it, that’s how the world operates “normally” right, coz that’s his world view formed at an impressionable age. So that becomes his definition of “normal.” However, reiterating, no matter how powerfully any traits were continuously fed and reinforced at a young age, I believe once a person reaches maturity, is capable of Honest self reflection, and most importantly Wants to change, he can “discern and choose” for himself and truly change a 180 degree. It is after all a “personality” disorder and what is the definition of personality? The combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual’s distinctive character. These characteristics have over time been collected, accumulated from immediate environment, unconsciously, they can also be discarded through volition. The narcs didn’t know how to write, they trained, they didn’t know how to drive, they trained, can they consciously train and explore empathy too? Yes. But don’t do it for anybody on the planet, do it for yourself.
@ABB: Something you said is resonating with me… How having a child and inviting Source into ones life can ease symptoms. I speak from a point of personal experience and agree with you. thank you for sharing so much and well written, ABB!
Your welcome Ms. Brown. So can you elaborate on your personal experience? If not I understand.
Whether or not the comparison of food vs fuel is accurate, a narcissist cannot “heal”. Narcissism is part of the cluster B personality disorders. There is no treatment or medication that can help this. The onus of protection is on us. Can a narcissist, sociopath or psychopath be made aware of what they are? Yes. However they cannot “heal” and just decide to do the “right” thing or become a “better” person. That is akin to expecting a lung cancer patient to just try harder or decide not to have lung cancer. Narcissism is a categorization of personality disorder as defined in the DSM-IV and the DSM-5. People with this disorder can become aware through psychotherapy, however, they truly have no empathy. That’s the same as asking a lion to be a fish. They can’t and will never be able to. We, as empathy, have the responsibility to learn as much as possible about them and RUN from them. They are not going to change. We have to.
C0167,
Do you believe that after a person is aware, there is no possible way to learn empathic emotions? I think that given the opportunity to recognize and label the emotions that one is unfamiliar with gives one the opportunity to understand and apply. To focus on the example of how these emotions were manifested toward you in however minute the amount, helps one to develop those emotions and grow them. Thinking that you can never change because the DSM IV says so, is really limiting ones opportunity to course correct. It’s like saying nobody can stop being a theif because they steal repeatedly and that is who they are wired to be. No. Why do they steal? Why do they believe it is acceptable behavior and what about focusing on people who were in their life that did not steal? Could you relearn to not steal and choose to do something else? The answer is yes but, you choose to modify the behavior.
Knowledge +Action = Choice.
Hi ABB,
Cluster B personality disordered individuals have the capacity to be aware. That’s why we are learning so much from HG Tudor. Being a thief in my opinion is not a personality disorder. Individuals who have these personality disorders do not have the capacity to apply and change. To hope or believe such is akin to banging your head against a wall in my opinion. I don’t believe they want to change and having the desire to change is the catalyst to anyone making a change. Why would they change? They want fuel. Full stop. A thief is a criminal. They do not have a personality disorder. Knowledge + action = choice cannot be accomplished in someone with a personality disorder. Awareness yes. Change no. Having some belief that they can change and continuing to engage will get you the same treatment you’ve always gotten. This is only my opinion.
Thanks for your thoughts. I wonder how I stopped being a diagnosed narcissist then? Of course I caught mine alot earlier and working with a good doctor for years probably helped. Since I am living proof you can choose. Your theory doesn’t apply to me. Maybe I am in the minority but, how could I expect less given the fact that I am special? Oh wait I forgot I was cured.
So so glad you’re cured!! Best of luck to you!
Claudine,
So nice to see some common sense. Well said.
Comparing stealing and sociopathy/psychopathy is like comparing butterflies and sharks. Nonsense.
We not to think we cannot change because the DSM says so. We do not see any need to change. Period.
If someone is “cured” it is simply because that person possessed some narcissistic traits, and was not diagnosed with a personality disorder. Everyone has some narcissistic traits and those who abandon those traits in favour of being more empathic, etc. do so because they feel guilty or remorseful for how they treat others and genuinely want to change.
The fact that you “caught” yours early on, ABB, is telling.
BE,
I will deal you with reasonably even though your narcissism prevents you from being a reasonable person. I understand, being I posess empathy now, that you believe you are created this way with no choice other than to act as you do so I will accommodate you.
I meant the word caught as being that my doctor seen the npd early on in my age and was able to work with me on reducing the behavior prior to years of practicing it.
Guilt or remorse never came into play to make the change. I had a baby and could not treat that baby as an extension of myself as my parents did. That behavior angered me and i didn’t want to act like them. I don’t believe you have children so I know you cannot understand that dynamic. That was the force behind entertaining the doctors suggestions to examine things from a different view.
I was diagnosed with npd, which I explained to Lou’s query of me, but u HG has not posted that comment. I did gain empathy and some other traits. I retained alot of the sociopathic traits and greatly reduced the narcissistic traits.
Making an analogy so one can better understand a viewpoint is not nonsense.
Hello ABB,
When the comparison makes sense, it is not nonsense.
I have seen numerous posts from you about being disordered and this is the first time I have seen you post that you were diagnosed with NPD. Then again, I also do not take the time to scroll through each and every comment because I do not have the time to do so.
Previously, you stated you were a sociopath, then empathic sociopath, now you say you were diagnosed with NPD. NPD and sociopathy/psychopathy (also called Antisocial Personality Disorder – APD) do have some similarities, but they are not the same disorder.
All sociopaths/psychopaths are narcissists but not all narcissists are sociopaths/psychopaths.
I understand now that you were diagnosed with NPD and not APD, so you are not sociopath/psychopath. Thank you for that clarification.
It is for that reason that I was curious about your conversion to empathy. You are not unique in recovery from narcissism as I have read numerous cases and articles where people have made the turn around. But these are often people who were able to recognize their behaviour was wrong (as you stated you did) and did feel some sense of guilt or remorse when the consequences of their bad behaviour were revealed to them by those they impacted.
These people recognize their behaviour hurts others and thus, has a negative impact on their well-being and self-esteem, so they take steps to learn ways to keep the narcissism in check. In a way, these types of people, while they are narcissistic, do have some understanding and concept of empathy because they do feel bad, guilty or remorseful when their actions have a negative impact on others.
At the other end of the spectrum, you have NPD and APD. You have people who are completely unaware of who and what they are and thus, will never see a reason to change. You have those of us who are completely self-aware and see no reason to change because this is who we are, it works for us, and we do not care how our actions impact others as long as our needs are met in the long run.
We have no concept of love, empathy, compassion, et al. This is largely because these things were never shown or taught to us or were shown and taught to us in a way that differs significantly from “acceptable standards” and thus, is interpreted and expressed in the way we perceive and understand it.
I have yet to see any shining examples of a person diagnosed with NPD becoming empathic and even less evidence where those with APD are able (or even willing) to do so.
There are plenty of cases where both NPD and APD are self-aware and understand exactly how their behaviour impacts others, but empathy does not enter into the equation because it is a completely foreign concept to us and not something we are interested in achieving for ourselves.
If anything, those of our kind who are self-aware are seeking understanding (through therapy, etc.) in order to make ourselves more effective. It is true that learning and understanding may cause us to adapt or change our behaviour, but typically this is only because it adds more suction to the mask and makes us more effective and efficient at maintaining the façade.
From what you are saying, you knew your behaviour was hindering you and you wanted to change.
Many of those with APD never feel our behaviour hinders us and if we do find it does, we seek out ways to become more efficient and effective. Those ways never include empathy, unless it is to mimic it so we can appear to be something we are not.
I appreciate your clarifications.
Hi ABB,
I do understand that having a baby is a catalyst for self examination and change in oneself. I have a baby, well, a 20 year old that I still call my baby. I do understand that dynamic. An individuals character traits or defects whichever the case may be are established from age 1-7 in early childhood by learning from their parents. Something as simple as being held when an infant can establish a child’s sense of trust or abandonment and whether or not they feel safe. You stated that you were “cured” to me and then said you still have a lot of sociopathic traits and greatly reduced the narcissistic traits to another poster and that the force behind entertaining the doctors suggestions to examine things from a different view was having a baby. I’m having a hard time understanding how you can be cured and still have traits of sociopathy and narcissism. You also said your cure was due to catching it at an early age but then you said it was due to addressing it when you had a baby. I think the reason there is interest in your viewpoint on this topic is because those responding don’t believe such a cure exists. I know I was interested because you said you were cured but it seems like a contradiction to say you still have a lot of sociopathic traits with lessened narcissistic traits but are also cured. You have further instilled my belief that cluster B personality disorders cannot be cured. It would seem more authentic to say that you still possess these traits of both disorders but because of the love you have for your child and your recognition of the suffering you experienced from your own parents you are continuing to work towards health so your child can have a healthier experience. That I could understand. Surely you know that anytime you state that you are cured from anything this serious it will draw attention.
CL,
Thanks for your observation. I was not addressing you about the understanding of having children. I addressed BE.
I believe there are many here that think a person can change.
I meant cured in the sense of not eliminating narcissism, because everyone knows that all of us have that trait to a degree. I meant practicing it to predatory levels. When I wrote that word I was thinking that I was no longer practicing love bombing, golden periods, devaluing and hoovering. Some may agree if these practices are stopped then you are cured from those behaviors. I think we are mincing words here.
For anyone that did not understand what I meant by the word “cured” it is stated above.
If I mislead anyone into thinking that I did no longer have narcissistic/sociopathic traits, I still do. I do not have them to the anywhere near to the degree i had before or to the degree of being a predator. I hope anyone who cares or who was detrimentally affected understands that I was cured in the sense I stated above.
My child is now 25 years old. These suggestions by my doctor coupled with the fact I was angry at my parents treatment of me caused me to examine his suggestions. There were other factors too. Obviously since I had years of therapy, changes in personality have happened.
I do not think I was genetically set and thus was prevented from making these changes. I believe that you can change your personality with therapy. I think others believe that too. Otherwise you wouldn’t have millions of people seeking therapy.
With my explanation I believe we are done here. I will discuss it no further as I have clearly written what I meant. If you choose to dispute that, it will be by yourself.
Hi ABB,
I think you articulate very well. You are very generous in sharing such personal details here to share and maybe help others. Most importantly, kudos to you for stopping any abusive and malign behavior when you had your child. That bond allowed pure, unconditional love into your life. I have never thought you throw the word “cure” around loosely. It’s probably that not everyone has read all of your comments over the course of time. I’ve understood what you’ve written reading your style and your stories over your time here.
Have a lovely day!!!
MLAC,
Aaawww mwah! Thank you. You are the best. Well 2nd best to our illustrious leader. Thanks for “getting me.”
Please accept my apology for responding. I thought that since you had originally replied to my comment that started this conversation I was still allowed to participate. Be assured that I will refrain from responding to you again. Take care.
ABB, how old were you when you were diagnosed with NPD?
ABB, would you mind sharing also how you got diagnosed with NPD?
Lou,
I was 20. I went into therapy because of a lawsuit. I knew I was not normal when it came to having any feelings toward others as this was repeatedly pointed out by friends and relatives and of course victims. I would meet men, charm them, make them believe that they were the one. I did think that they might be, but then at some point I would grow bored of them and then the abuse would start. I always had multiple relationships at once and I would live with someone because I did not want to marry. I would always have to have a safety net or back up relationship because I wanted the attention from everyone. I would step on whomever I had to to get what I wanted and I was also climbing at work. I did not care who I hurt and would get off on the fact that these men were so stupid to fall for anything that I said or did. I lied repeatedly. I would lie just to see how far I could take it. I conned many men out of money. I also had alot of people around me that I would use up and spit out. I was very reckless in my behaviour. Thrill seeking behavior. High risk behaviour. When I stopped playing my therapist and started to talk about the physical, emotional and sexual abuse that I endured as a child, we talked about Narcissistic behavior. I knew the word from my mother, who is a narcissist. She at one point went through a self help phase and read about it and of course argued that my Father was a narcissist and everyone else she could accuse for months, until she moved on to some other pastime. The therapist helped me to see it after discussing the idea of my not caring about how others felt. I thought it was too bad if they didn’t figure out that I felt nothing towards them and that they would learn their lesson after being with me. I was doing them a favor by breaking them as they were too gullible. I thought I was entitled to do what I wanted when I wanted and that I deserved to get what I got because I was smarter than everyone else. My therapist did work extensively in prisons before private practice. He had worked alot with npd, sociopathy and pyschopathy. My Father is Narc sociopath. My Mom is lesser narc. My half brother greater narc my brother mid narc. It runs deep on both sides. I was privy to manipulation and game playing and what narcissistic supply or fuel was at a young age. My family was very competitive and I was a very high achiever. The pressure to be perfect and seek perfection of others was always there. Looks played an important role as well. My therapist talked to me about having a bucket that was empty and needing that bucket to be filled by positive compliments and praise. Then he explained that some people have a hole in their bucket that is why the bucket cannot be filled. I understood that. I said to me it was like a paint palette. That I felt like I had a place on the palette for each color and if I did not keep going forward and being better and getting praise and compliments and accolades that the paint would leak out and run all together and turn black and I would die because I couldn’t hold the colors in their place. They would get mixed and I had to prevent that from happening. He asked me why I thought this would kill me. I said because everyone would know I was a fraud. That they do not know what I really am. He said what are you really. I said nothing, empty. Of course this is the condensed version of what took time to sort out. I did not believe that I was pretty, intelligent, funny or successful. I believed it was a false construct of what everyone wanted to see. I just gave people what they wanted. This was mirroring back what they were. I knew people liked people who had the same likes and dislikes and I knew that people liked compliments and praise. It was after studying religion and having a baby that I really started to see that I didn’t have to act like that. I really started to think that I may be able to change. I for the first time felt love for something, my son. I was not in love with him as I am still not in love with anyone. I feel some love towards a few people but not like most people. I do feel compassion and empathy and I work at not shutting off these emotions. I in fact was told today by my doctor that I am being a little too sociopathic as of late. I am now 48 years old. So, I would say it has been alot of time spent learning and applying emotions. This is why I don’t believe that we are created a narcissist. I think it’s environmental. I think that we have a choice how to act and I think that it is a matter of will. I know that some disagree this is possible. I think that God plays a role in it. I know that some think it evolution or there is no free will, but I dont so, I will hold my conviction that change is a choice and narcissism can be curbed to a healthy amount if you have someone to teach you, guide you and direct you, along with the will to want to curb it. Hope that helps.
Sorry HG for such a long explanation. I do wonder what your thoughts are about what I’ve said as far as my story, if you agree that npd was the correct diagnosis at the time. I think about the super empath traits you have set forth and think I am more that now. I think the sociopathic tendancies may have been very prominent and I wonder sometimes if they were not mistaken with npd or if it was just exhibiting both behaviours. If you would please give me your thought, privately or here, I would be most appreciative. I know where you stand on change. I hope you know I just disagree and do not slight your belief as of course you and I are both entitled. Thanks. I will empathically say I Hope you respond ☆♡.
Claudine,
You do not need to apologize. This happens often enough on the blog, most often between HG and ABB. She writes things, is challenged, and then accuses HG (or others depending who she is engaging with) of misunderstanding or taking her out of context (or in this case, mincing words).
When a person says they are cured, it most certainly does imply they are relieved or healed of the symptoms of a disease or disorder (which is the definition of the word cured). I took it the same way you did because of the way it was presented.
I must point out again (and HG has also done so on the blog numerous times) that NPD and APD are NOT the same disorder. In order to have sociopathic traits, you need to be diagnosed as having APD. The label of sociopath/psychopath would not be attributed to you by any medical professional without a diagnoses of APD because it is APD that results in those sociopathic/psychopathic traits and not NPD.
In fact, APD is the shared diagnosis for sociopaths and psychopaths alike.
This is how confusion and misinformation is born.
I know that I was genetically predisposition to be who I am because a number of tests I was forced to undergo proved that to those who needed to know. That is why I say it.
I underwent years of therapy as well (I was in therapy from about 14 to 19) and it did nothing to change my personality, way of thinking, or my behaviour. It did, however, give me the tools to manage certain aspects of my disorder, such as rage, and it did teach me how to become more effective and efficient in my operations.
I am not disputing you ABB, it is you who constantly disputes. You hold yourself up as a some shining (and incredibly rare, if not unheard of) example of a convert from so-called sociopathy to empathy when anyone worth their salt knows that those with APD are not able to embrace, understand and feel empathy. Narcissists can, to some degree, if they so choose, but their version of empathy will always be their version of empathy. They will never feel it the same way someone who was shown and taught it does.
No one said that your misuse of the word cure was detrimental in any way. I doubt it matters that much to anyone.
As HG says, “Do not be sorry, be accurate.”
Thanks for your reply, ABB. I did not ask my question because I did not believe about you being a “non practising narcissist” but because I was truly interested in your story. I can relate to a lot of the stuff you mention in your reply, especially the pressure to be perfect and expecting others to be perfect too. I also grew up in the narcissistic toxic environment.
I liked a lot your image of the color/paint palette. Find it very apt.
Thanks again ABB.
Lou,
Your environment contained narcissists, were they your parents? Thanks Lou for your compliment and you are welcome. 😉
Yes, ABB, my mother has NPD, and other members of my family.
Oh, how unfortunate. I feel your pain then. Good thing you came across this blog. I like when HG writes about the family dynamics of narcissist relationships. It’s helpful to apply his thought process to a mother or father because each narcissist is different. The basic games are the same but the creativity with which they carry them out is interesting to see from other commenters. It’s like a “hey my Mom did that too” I didn’t realize that was a Narc move. Refreshing to know you are not the only one who had to deal with that particular narc tactic.
ABB
You cannot grow empathy.
You either have it or you dont.
Mimicry is a facade.
Why you persist in this business of its a choice I dont get.
Unless you want to look superior. The Narc who showed the world how its all done…
I dont think so.
Harping on about choice.
Its a disorder.
Anna belle black
As of 2013 we are on the DSM-V. sociopaths and psychopaths brains are wired differently (especially psychopaths). If you would like me to go into the research findings we can do that (neuroanatomy and the psychological findings) – here are just a few quick ones because I am multitasking…
Psychopaths = emotional poverty
They are reward driven and do not learn from experience. Research findings in recent studies report Significant bilateral reductions in the amygdala. The amygdala is involved in fear conditioning, reward learning. Moral reasoning …..
There are many more we could go into the frontal lobe if you would like..
Let me know if you would like me to give you details on the research regarding sociopathy, psychopathy, or narcissism.
I could tell you more about borderline if you would like?
You sound like a borderline with narcissistic traits ….
I like to think of everything on a spectrum…..
Just so you know Borderlines can be ruthless just like narcs some scholars felt that the men go antisocial and the women go borderline
You could also meet the criteria for both
You still appear more borderline with narcissistic traits so far
I was thinking more along the lines of Histrionic myself, what with the inappropriately seductive behavior and excessive need for approval.
This personality disorder falls within the “dramatic” cluster of personality disorders.
People with HPD have a high need for attention, make loud and inappropriate appearances, exaggerate their behaviors and emotions, and crave stimulation.
They may exhibit sexually provocative behavior, express strong emotions with an impressionistic style, and can be easily influenced by others. Associated features include egocentrism, self-indulgence, continuous longing for appreciation, and persistent manipulative behavior to achieve their own needs.
Then again, I am not a doctor. I only play one on tv.
“Have tea and cake with your demon.”
http://upliftconnect.com/how-to-feed-your-demons/
Well then, the saying the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree applies here. Congrats on being an even bigger, badder abuser than MatriNarc… who you detest for what she did. I guess that’s your version of winning.
What are the doctors hoping to still accomplish at this point? Or is it just an exercise in futility to keep your family pacified so you get the inheritance?
We all follow our human survival instinct. That’s the most powerful drive. The difference is not everyone is able to self reflection, repentance and desire to remedy the evil.
You’re not a good person, nor bad. You just are. No one ever had the choice, I could be you, and you could one of us. Can you blame a lion for hunting? I guess not. Are you trying to change or you just have this amazing awareness and that’s it? What is the point in having such a great mind if you’ll just accept what the world chose for you? At the same time, if we can’t change our empathic traits, why would we blame your kind for being unable to stop “feeding” ..
Your existence just prove that the world is so wrong ( not you as a person, clearly, but your kind ) lol
I I would tell you about the things
They put me through
The pain I’ve been subjected to
But the Lord himself would blush
The countless feasts laid at my feet
Forbidden fruits for me to eat
But I think your pulse would start to rush
Now I’m not looking for absolution
Forgiveness for the things I do
But before you come to any conclusions
Try walking in my shoes
Try walking in my shoes
You’ll stumble in my footsteps
Keep the same appointments I kept
If you try walking in my shoes
If you try walking in my shoes
Morality would frown upon
Decency look down upon
The scapegoat fate’s made of me
But I promise now, my judge and jurors
My intentions couldn’t have been purer
My case is easy to see
I’m not looking for a clearer conscience
Peace of mind after what I’ve been through
And before we talk of any repentance
Try walking in my shoes
Try walking in my shoes
You’ll stumble in my footsteps
Keep the same appointments I kept
If you try walking in my shoes
If you try walking in my shoes
There is always space for some Depeche Mode in one’s life.
☺ yes, always.
Wow. Just. Wow.
I dont know whether to be sad for you, or horrified that this is how you live and think.
You could be a good man if you leave your bad job, yes?
As far as the ex N’s goes, I think they’re pure evil to be honest, just really, really bad men.
I actually agree. I think we are all in the same boat. You dI’d not choose your neurological make up, your Momnarc, or really anything in childhood. I appreciate that you are honest, perhaps brutally, and seek to be understood. I imagine even Serial Killers feel this way. It really is the main tragedy of our Condition as human apes. Thank you, you have enriched my life deeply in the short time I have been reading and listening. I think it is groundbreaking work! Revolutionary! Peace out
Thank you Zoey.
👍
Lots to note here, to you, HG…. and first & foremost, YOU were NOT made this way. You are are product of your environment and this way, of fuel gathering, is Modus Ponens. How YOU chose to cope and survive. Agree with you that food is necessary for all living beings or death is immenant. Are you claiming “fuel” for your kind is necessary or without death is guaranteed? It makes no sence to compare the two. What is the absolute that can happen without your fuel?? Be real… will your body mind & spirit cease to exist resulting in death? I read all your descriptive and detailed expanations thus far. This one, I do not accept as factual. It is a comparison of apples and bananas, no? And to answer you last question, “bad” is relative, in my opinion. Good men and bad men both are capable (or not) of doing bad things. We have free will and it is a choice what one does. XXoo
Hi Ms Brown,
Listen or read Sam Harris on free will. We really do not have it. It is deep and can be complicated to comprehend, but give it a try. https://youtu.be/pCofmZlC72g
There are a few more on youtube.
no thanks…
Hi Ms Brown, Sam Vaknin describes that deficient supplies can lead to narcissists often experience brief, decompensatory psychotic episodes. There seem to be a rather significant psychological effect of deficient fuel. They suffer from withdrawal syndrome, like drug addicts: delusions, physiological effects, irritability, and emotional lability. Do not try to understand it. They are alien life form. I pity all narcs and stay away, far away from them.
Yes, I aleady know and understand all that, based on 24 years experience… Thank you anyway, and side note, I didnt much care for Sam Vaknin writings, as I do Mr Tudor’s. I find HG to be much more realistic and spot on than SV.
I like to have 2 different perspectives, I never rely on one source of expertise. I had my narc in my life for 4 years and I could apply both HG and SV observations to him. Both are helpful but HG is far more entertaining to me, at least he makes me laugh sometime. He is a terrible human being but he can be funny.
indeed, he certainly is entertaining…
When I escaped …the very next day she drowned her dog. Who did she call with fake tears? That’s easy …I ran to her rescue, as an empath naturally I would. With a more vivid understanding now of the extremes and behaviors this disorder. I cringe to think about the horrific death of a wonderful loving innocent pet. At the time I was not (fully) aware of the darkness and empty void of human flesh I was dealing with. To see the lifeless little body before my very eyes …was enough! Get it! They don’t love now or EVER! Save your souls. NO CONTACT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE!
How did she explain the death of the dog – she had to make some attempts to explain it to you? This is just so horrible, hard to believe people are that evil…
A very simple explanation. She said he fell into the pond. The dog never had any interest in going near the area in the year I was involved. And would have required walking over a jagged incline to reach the pond. Because we had broken up the night before …she was working diligently online to secure new supply. The physical condition showed trama consistent with force. If by a small chance it was negligent? Still the innocent animal died in a cruel and horrific manner. It still breaks my heart to think about it.
HG you speak of food in this blog as literal food? But you do not need literal fuel?
Neither do we as empaths and co dependents need literal food. The food we are addicted to is love? The fuel you are addicted to is power?
And we did not ask to be created with a void of love and nurture that would have us feeling like we would cease to exist without this food?
That is why we become so hooked on your abundance of fake food (love) that is on offer from your kind in the beginning?
It is fake and abusive but it tastes real and so yummy to us and we are made desperate to feed on it?
We may be independent and strong in all other areas but when it comes to love relationships, we find ourselves so hungry and you feed (with all that deliciousness) to the point of fullness? Why else would we fall for it and ignore the red flags of ‘this is not real food’?
We do have our limit though? When the chips are down and our stomach is knotted with the agony of starvation, we must escape you?
Could you live on teaspoons of fuel? No..
We may scream and sob and wail and cry for more but in the end, we realise we are not created to live or beg for scraps of food.
No, our creature that lurks in the dungeon and has us seeking food is as hungry as yours is for fuel? It is they who dance?
You and I are human? We have choice? And addiction has been described as a disorder of choice?
We must choose to heal from our addiction to food? Do you think we are less terrified than you to do this?
To face the creature that sits in it’s maggot infested (under the visible garbage) prison and demands food or slay our soul?
This beast tortures us in that we are like moths to an illusion of light (you) that will destroy us? Did we ask for this?
To find the love we need for ourselves in that gross infested place and face the darkness of where the beast dwells is the most terrifying and difficult thing we will ever ask of ourselves? (If we ever do?)
But we must do it if we ever want to taste freedom from your kind and our emancipated raging horror?
And you must choose it also, if you ever want to taste freedom from your kind and not have your back (bone) sliced and branded by that disgusting overgrown yellow nail?
We will need the same ‘bravery’ and understanding of each other? Yes?
(Even though I say ‘we’ I am expressing from my personal experience)
There is another choice to behold. The choice to grow your own food from seed. To water and care for your own garden. This is the same as love and happiness coming from within and being nurtured by your own heart.
That’s what I’m talkin about . I was perfectly content on my own caring,& loving myself . Until this came along & actually it wasnt fast we talked,laughed enjoyed meals,sang,shot pool enjoyed thecompanionship several (5) months I felt like our friendship grew into love , trust & honesty . Boy howdy was I wrong ! I will never again my deep inner innocence the very center of my soul has been betrayed the pain is beyond any I’ve suffered , the mental anguish that dam near cost me my precious life can never be healed, I can never trust again , I don’t trust myself .. I’m coming back but know I will never be the same woman .. He chose to do this to me & I chose to walk away from him ; we all have choices & consequences of those choices .
no if you know the devastation you cause you can change.
Your kind is just a tool was created by this system “humans call life” Targeted humans must wake up, open their minds and know who they really are beyond the human flesh. This is a spiritual warfare to keep you a tortured slave. The hell is empty and all the devils are here
Very good point.
Have you considered exorcism? Between the banner image of a heart with “EVIL” in the center and the following passage from The Narcissistic Truths – No. 2 (Expanded) a demon or demons have locked up the “good HG” and taken over.
My X (whom I refer to as Voldemort) mirrored my Christian faith. His first betrayal was on the mission field. Then he cleaned up his act for awhile but every betrayal got worse by orders of magnitude. He did not fill his empty heart with the Holy Spirit but allowed evil to take over.
“like a man possessed by a demon. For if the demon leaves, it goes into the deserts[a] for a while, seeking rest but finding none. Then it says, ‘I will return to the man I came from.’ So it returns and finds the man’s heart clean but empty! Then the demon finds seven other spirits more evil than itself, and all enter the man and live in him. And so he is worse off than before.” Matt 12:43-45 TLB
No I haven’t considered Exorcism but there is an applicability to how you need to effectively do that to purge us from our infection of you.
I was thinking about all of this today ! And no, I wouldn’t do same as you, because we feel too guilty even for eating a chicken. I would never take revenge on the person who shattered my life either, even if I could. But, if we didn’t feel guilt, remorse, empathy…what would stop us from doing all of that and more? Nothing. It’s terrifying. And sad.
Chaos
I agree.
..and about the chicken too.
“Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!”
Story of your life.
https://youtu.be/-RQxD4Ff7dY
What film is this? I am unfamiliar with it.
It’s only The Wizard of Oz. Typical narc – lives in a cave and only comes out to feed. 😉
Result.
Oh it’s also where the term ‘flying monkey’ comes from.
Crikey.
😢