Cookie Jar
When I was a child, my grandmother would bake the most delicious-smelling cookies. Her house would be full of the aroma of those treats as they baked in her oven. She would remove them and place them on the various cooling wire stands as my siblings and me would stand and watch, eyes wide and mouths salivating. The flavours that she would make were so enticing. Chocolate chip, peanut butter, fudge chocolate, cinnamon, cranberry and orange and white chocolate. We were not allowed to eat them when they were warm, even though we knew from our mother’s cookies that they tasted sensational in this state. The selection of mouth-watering treats was placed inside a large cookie jar and placed on a shelf.
“Now, ” my grandmother would announce, ” cookies must be earned. Good behaviour will result in being given a cookie of your favourite flavour.”
“I like chocolate chip best of all,” my sister would declare.
“I prefer peanut butter,” my elder brother would announce.
“It’s got to be cinnamon for me,” weighed in my younger brother as he fizzed with excitement. I would stand saying nothing.
“What about you HG ? Which is your favourite?” asked my grandmother as she leant down to level with my face,
“I like them all grandma, I don’t have a favourite,” I would answer.
My grandmother would laugh.
“Oh you can’t have them all HG, you’ll be sick,” she would say and ruffle my hair.
“He will grandma, he is greedy,” my sister would scold and I would give her my look. I had perfected this stare in the mirror over the preceding summer. I narrowed my eyes and fixed my gaze summoning up every ounce of anger, malice and hatred that I could muster. I found it worked best if I thought of things which angered me. I would recall being left out of the school football team but for no apparent reason. I would remember when my painting did not win the competition organised by the church (“But you came second,” congratulated my younger brother, what’s the good of second?!) and every other injustice that had been meted out to me. I recalled the fury I felt from each act of exclusion and failure to recognise my talents and I channelled it into creating the cold, malicious stare. When I shot it towards my sister she immediately fell quiet. She knew better than to cross me once I had given her that look.
“Well,” my grandmother would continue as she straightened herself, “if you all help me clean the baking utensils you can all have a cookie each. I sneered as my siblings gathered around to assist so readily compliant for such a meagre reward. I turned and walked out of the room unwilling to engage in their collective submission.
“Don’t you want a cookie?” my grandmother would ask, her voice following me as I walked into the garden.
“No thank you,” I called over my shoulder and made my way to my favourite tree to climb high into its branches and sit in splendid isolation looking across the extensive garden which surrounded my grandparents’ impressive house. I would sit up there for hours, master of all I surveyed.
When I returned for dinner my siblings would remind me of how delicious the cookies had tasted yet I was unaffected by their ineffectual goading for I knew that my triumph would surpass their laughable achievement. I merely smiled and got on with eating my dinner.
That night I waited until the rest of the house was asleep and then I made my way downstairs, back into the kitchen. I stood on the cool stone floor, the moonlight shining into the room causing the glass jar to gleam. I hopped up onto one of the kitchen counters and claimed my prize. I placed the jar down before me and lifted off the lid before dipping my hand inside and selecting a white chocolate cookie. I devoured it in three bites. I grabbed a cinnamon one and wolfed that down before attacking a cranberry and orange cookie in much the same way. I pulled the chocolate chip, peanut butter and chocolate fudge flavoured ones and put them beside me, ready to carry to bed. My hand lingered over the jar again. How I wanted to take a further cinnamon cookie and break it up, scattering crumbs besides my younger brother’s bed but I knew that it was futile. My grandmother could never remember how many she had baked of each cookie and she would never notice that six had been taken overnight. That was the basis for my success. Therefore, there was no point in leading a trail to the bed of my younger brother, no matter how satisfying it would have been to have seen him accused and cry as he protested his innocence. I replaced the jar and scooped up my bounty ready to pad back to my bed and enjoy my stolen snacks and reflect on my skills. Even back then I knew what people’s weaknesses were and how best to exploit them.
412 thoughts on “Cookie Jar”
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Oh HG💔,
I had no idea. This is heavy. I can’t stop crying. Now I understand more than ever why you are who you are. FUCK ALL OF THEM. They really fucked with the wrong kid. I’m so glad you found inner strength and determination instead of letting this destroy you. I just wish they didn’t take your sweet heart. They deserve everything they get. I don’t see you as the villain. To me you’re a Superhero. You just might save the world.
I’m relieved you found the Shieldmaiden so you can finally experience how true love should feel. You have a very brave soul. Thank you for everything. Truly.
You are welcome.
Here is a little bit of fuel HG. I am way out the other side of this but you played a massive part but I was the inquisitive and intuitive one to realise something was a miss. I got more than I bargained for but 4 years later the jigsaw is complete. I have erradicated the causes of my discomfort from my life, kept some at bay and am not frightened to say no if anyone oversteps my boundaries. I am the way I was meant to be when I was born before society shaped me into soneone i did not know. This experience has been hell but it has given me real life and for that I am thankful. Not only has this helped me personally but a huge amount professionally. It is amazing to be free. The world is truly beautiful if you chose to fight and search.
So thank you HG. 😉
Well done SVR and I am pleased to note that this is the case, you are welcome.
SVR
It is always so good to hear when someone has arrived where you are. Best to you.
Thank you NarcAngel. I have come a long way. I was broken to the point of having my suicide plan and driving in the direction to now being the Queen of my Castle. I have never hated anyone and can feel for my perpetrators but I cannot help them but I could help me. Thats what I chose. I now have a life as I learn who I truly am. 😁
Twisted Heart
I haven’t forgotten it is long and I am not done.
I hope HG is ready to read the longest comment I have ever written here.
Oh yes.
HG,
When I read this story about your aunt, I felt real love for you. There’s something in me that equates pain with love. Is that the part that I need to work on?
One of my more normal boyfriends told me once “I think you would love me more if I had a fucked up childhood” and that really hit home.
Twilight,
No Rush. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your insights.
Mirrors emotional abuse but for the abuser it is turned inside out and is darkness light darkness light darkness with the periods between each becoming longer until all that is left is darkness and the light is just a teeny tiny shard of a memory. Sad.
Had to read to the end because I too was engrossed in what was unfolding.
The viewpoint of the vitriol being benign hadn’t struck me but of course it makes perfect sense and offers a more comfortable one to read from now, thank you.
Why is my response surprising? I have a young family from a 12 year marriage with someone who is many things, layer upon layer upon layer. The first one enchanting and ensnaring, the last one despicable and murderous.
At 18months into recovery from that is my response surprising because I should be so messed up that my post should have been far more complex than wishing there was more kindness in the world? Some days everything is very complex but those are followed by days where a light shines and the simple truth of living cleanly without second guessing every single spoken word or thought frees me enough to have one simple vaguely happy thought. Which I voiced above.
Interesting that recovery mirrors the cycle of emotional abuse. Darkness, light, darkness, light. With the periods between each becoming longer until hopefully the light is all that is left and the darkness is far far behind….just a teeny tiny shard of memory.
I had to keep reading until the end despite it being stupid o’clock.
Wow indeed.
Joining all other posters in thanking you HG for sharing what you did in this thread. V odd for others to feel it’s appropriate to launch vitriol at such serious subject matter. Strange choice of arena (bearing in mind *most* of the readers here) in which to anticipate support for such an outburst.
I’ve seen a few mean-minded posts across the blog in the short time I’ve been reading it and I feel prompted to say I think it’s sad that there isn’t more kindness in the world.
I don’t mean that in a drippy philosophical love is all we need way, but all this paranoia and greed and one-upmanship is just a bit boring isn’t it? Generally speaking I mean, not solely this blog.
I send a great big yawn out to all of it.
Sorry, but this response kind of makes me laugh. This entire blog is a confessional of one man’s deep unkindness to people. Maybe you need to keep reading because you don’t seem to entirely grasp what HG is talking about and why he elicits such a range of responses. Have you ever had any of what HG writes about done to you? My guess is no, but I could be wrong. But until you have been mind fucked to the degree HG and his kind mind fuck people, you won’t get it. If it has happened to you, your response is surprising. Even HG himself has agreed with me, until you have been victimized by someone like him, you really can’t get it. And as he describes the insanity his treatment of people can elicit in others, then the vitriol here is truly benign, all things considered.
That crazy bitch aunt of yours… She still alive…?
She saw the weakness in your family’s foundation and proceeded because there was no caution.
Friday night @the black household. Since I am feeling sorry for myself today I decided to read this entire thread.
HG…
I pieced together your tale of abuse here. Thank you for giving so much of yourself. I think about the environment my parents grew up in and even though it was not good I would think they should have been smart enough emotionally to rise above and do a better job than what they had. I know your mom and dad had their reasons for why they allowed your abuse to happen. I just have a hard time dealing with the fact that you we’re dismissed. I was dismissed too. If I got the right idea, your father thought you could handle it. I was also the one who handles myself. They still expect me to handle everything. I could only rely on me and trust me. I did however love my sexual abuser. Weird I know. He took care of me. He paid attention to me. He engaged me. Of course I know now that he was a narcissist and it was a selfish act with a child. This is where promiscuity came in. I became like him. I played his role. I was very conflicted. I think your revenge driven therapy could be good if you let it. I understand knowing and being conscious of your choices does not mean you have to change. I wonder if you are gaining insight into why they thought like they did and if you can accept that you surpassed them in emotional intelligence. That they could not be anything but what they were as they didn’t try to have a self understanding like you did. Even if your understanding of them is revenge motivated I wonder if you just accept that you can’t control their behavior or do you feel hatred toward them? I have anger toward my parents but I am trying to understand that they worked with what they had and I surpassed them. I still am not ready to re establish a relationship with them as I still could become enraged and lose control. It would just be fuel and there’s an oil embargo still going on at my house. I’d appreciate your thoughts on my comnents/questions here. Of course when you come up for air or floating in the pool of fuel. 💙🖤
I am so sorry you were victimized in such a way HG.. it’s a wound that never really heals. But you are so brave to openly share your experiences ,and whether you intend to or not ,it may actually help others(and hopefully yourself). Many or us are riddiled with unnecessary shame and never have the courage to speak out.
SB,
We could write a book at this rate!
From what I’ve studied of MBTI I believe it’s 1-2% of the population that may be INFJ. Incredibly rare. The idea that each personality in the MBTI classification has a different way of perceiving the world was what piqued my curiosity. (That and a friend was incredibly interested in it.) In regards to the feelings of being strange, It’s completely understandable to feel that way. I’ve always felt out of place. We should start a club! I’d imagine it felt like a huge weight was lifted off your shoulders however. Your childhood sounded hellish. It must have felt very draining to live that way.
I can relate completely. I was the kind of child that was often accused of not having a very good attention span and I would want to touch, feel, and explore everything around me. Didn’t matter what it was. I had to see it or experience it. This got me into trouble a lot due to my hostile environment. I even got bit by a brown recluse spider once. Have you heard of the species? Attic exploration is dangerous. Spider webs are pretty but it’s never a good idea to prod one. Trust me, I know from experience.
I suffered from PTSD and clinical depression during my early teenage years because of this instinctual curiosity being squashed. It’s wrong for children to be denied such a chance at exploration. Alas, not all of us can grow up in healthy loving homes; as I’ve learned from many people on these comments. Parents generally want to form our worldview to suit their own. This destroys people..
Oh yes, moving around constantly was something my family did best. (Are we related?) It was usually because of the aims of my mother wanting something new or she was acquiring something to substantiate herself. Also, religious factors were at play. This makes it hard to form bonds with people, it’s chaotic as you say.
As for the creative anxiety, yes I understand this as well. It took me quite a long time to come back into a zone where I felt comfortable enough to explore my creative side again. Do you find you are able to balance your traits and seize them for your creative endeavors now? Hm, perhaps utilizing The Dragon and applying it to your creativity would be a good healthy way of processing. But that’s just how I might explore those feelings.
Oh, the obsession can be intense. That mostly came from a place of needing external validation because I felt deprived of love. A part of it was also the obsession of what he could coax out of me that I suppressed. It was oddly cathartic in nature at times but I was a whirlwind when it happened. But that intensity is what draws us in. Now I understand why of course. Our nature as empaths, feelers, and idealists are equally attractive to this dynamic. It’s dangerous and heart wrenching, especially if you have no clue and it sounds like we both didn’t. We were both young when we were caught up in such a relationship. It’s probably safe to assume they may not have exactly known that’s what they were, but it doesn’t erase the fact they were very proficient at pulling the heart strings when young and barely starting to understand love.
This is the longest thread ever. Imagine getting a cookie every time a new comment is made.
Wow!!! I usually find reading the comments interesting, but every so often… words fail me … just “Wow!!” 😳
Where’s my thank you?
Even though it wasn’t that personal, somuch for this fourth rule:
“Personal attacks against me are just fuel. If you want to do it, go ahead, but you will become bored before I do. , Greater.
Is this a reaction a narcissist has when they feel slight criticism ? I am new so don’t know who is who yet. I mean no disrespect. I don’t care who is the empath or narcissist as long as I learn. This is somewhat a support group I thought but I am questioning. Getting back to the article which I think is important I would like to say it is well written. I enjoy how you explain things by telling stories. Thank you for the time you take in writing them. Your awareness shows and knowledge is power for all involved . Thank you…
Thank you JLW. There is no doubt about what I am, you can see that from the About section and my repeated posts. The vast majority of people who contribute on the blog are of an empathic nature, either belonging to the empath group (as I have determined it) or have empathic traits. Every so often, one of our kind drops in as well.
Thank you for your reply . I was unsure if the group outside of you were a mixture of the two but appeared to be so in the comments. Thanks for explaining as I am new. I am just learning and trying to recognize for myself for the future. I have read your books and I am learning from them to look for the signs. It is helpful that both sides comment . 🙂
You are welcome.
Ha ha. You don’t believe that about me G 😅.
JLW
Welcome. It is very educational and supportive here. There are moments on the crazy train but that just makes it interesting and humorous at times. It will be interesting for you to watch the personalities (and some of us have more than one) emerge. See you around…………
Loved reading this with my morning latte 😂😂😂 charlie big bananas i like that one 🤗🤗🤗 😄 carry on dont let me disturb….👍..ill take a brownie too please 😂
Yes but when will Michael Jackson be along?
Haha. Dont stop til you get enough.
No can do, sorry, but I can blame it on the boogie.
We both know there is no hope for anything other than BLACK or WHITE to be your favourite
***Hee hee in high falsetto while grabbing crotch with gloved hand***
“No can do, sorry, but I can blame it on the boogie.”
Awwww.
Someone’s trying to poke everyone with a stick. Feckin marvelous…. first we have to feed the narcs…. now we’re expected to feed the troll 😉 😀
And so HG requires that of lieutenants….? To feed who he preceives a troll?
You know.. I wouldn’t be surprised.. 💅
Is this Vashti for real? Honestly this is so boring. Find a rock and hide for goodness sake. I do not condone abuse but HG is shedding light on something very serious. Now you either want to listen and appropriately participate or go away and let the real people use this site for advantage. Vashti are you an abuser and have nothe recognised it? Possibly a lesser one. Enough said I have wasted enough energy now.
I’m going to let you know right now your cheap ass wasted you energy to begin with. -CIAO 😊.
Vashti I see your vocabulary is one of a lesser so got the answer. I bet you would not say half of this to people’s face. You hide behind here and think your brave but we all think and I am sure I speak for many you are a: just so you understand in your choice of words an ass. Grow up you immature idiot.
You’re a yapping bit of non importance.. Did you know that ..?💅
How this appeared in my email was Vashti responding to Vashti and saying you are a “yapping bit of non-importance”.
Why yes… Yes indeed.
I read it the same way, yet recognize you can not speak with a person that listens to react and not listen to respond.
Just hope what ever it is that makes her so angry, a constructive way is found vs the destructive one she seems to use.
mla,
Clearly important for you and clearly for you… it is vital 💅
You look like you’re in your mid 50s. Quite sad of you..
Sounds like the weak comeback of someone sniffing nail polish fumes all day long.
Peace out!
Clarece, you are beautiful. If you are in your mid-50s, then they need to bottle up whatever potion you’re taking to look so young. 😉
I admire that you have always showed yourself. It exhibits your confidence and honesty. You are true.
Awww, thank you Love. Hell no I’m not in my mid-50’s, but I was amused she thought that would strike me somehow. She can knock a whole decade off. Lol
When more commentators started interacting with me to what I would comment on with HG, I decided to post a photo so people could put a face to the words. I like your photo too and we’re still anonymous so to speak.
Good morning Clarece!
I love your picture and Love’s.
It is nice to put a face with all the stories, especially with the readers that I have interacted with for some time.
I would add a picture myself but I would need to figure out how to make an account and add a picture. Lol… not a strength for me. That sounds like a job for my daughter. Lol
Enjoy your Sunday !
We are finally getting some sun and 70’s today.
Hi SnowWhite,
It is possible to register for a free account on WP without creating a blog or web site. You need your email, User Name, password and also your “Public Display Name”. Your email and user name will not be shown.
https://wordpress.com/start/account/user
Thank you E.B.!!!
That was very nice of you.
And I appreciate the link. ❤️
Anytime I do anything new on a technological device I need detailed steps. Lol
Snow White,
Glad I could help. The link I gave you is hidden. You can upload a photo or an image.
It seems as though HG keeps getting poked by a a stick over and over again. I am sure he can handle himself, tho I’m not sure how it’s beneficial to be trying to provoke him or what it’s going to prove.Entertaining to read the exchange but seems a bit redundant..
Correct.
Even thou it is redundant, I can see this as an example of where actions speaks volumes along with what is being said verses someone that is emotionally distress and trying to make sense of true manipulation. Being emotionally charged can reflect the same but when you add what is being said it makes the picture clearer.
I wasn’t into the song either . I never post but thought I would admit but I agree no big deal if you don’t like it. I also think your information is the best I have seen face or no face and appreciate the cold hard facts. I also like the comment, grabbing popcorn as I found the thread entertaining for a moment. 🙂
Thank you JLW, I appreciate your observation in that regard.
*asleep* See what I mean? Dozing off lol.
I wasn’t joking either when I said I was about to yawn …
Vashti
If you really are the evil wizard you portray, could you please produce some of this blood and thunder or revelation you keep promising. Were all falling asleeo waiting for you to make good on your threats. Bring it or shut up.
Meh….. and I’m becoming bored of eating so much popcorn 😉
*shuffles off to grab more popcorn* 😉
Best hurry PD, I am becoming bored of repeating myself!
Is ‘Vashti’ new here, or a reincarnation of a previous poster?
Not a reincarnation PD.
PD and Ava,
Well you might be angry with me about this conversation against HG, why are you guys fighting and competing with each other for Love’s man !? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 😂 😂 😂 😂G’s 😂😂😂😂😂😂
😂😂😂😂 favorite 😂😂😂😂😂
😂😂shape is the triangle😂😂😂
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Vashti, Queen of Persia, great name. 👑
By “Love’s man”, did you mean he’s my man? Lol I wish 😉. Alas, Mr. Tudor is as Stephen King says, “Some birds are not meant to be caged… Their feathers are too bright, their songs too sweet and wild.”
Oh wait, I think Stephen was talking about me 😁
Yes Love I was referring to you. These chick are pulling each others hair out, scratching each others faces and rippog each others clothes and their ‘stuff’ is hanging out trying to “get me” (lol) for going against HG. HOW DEAR I? Look at all that hair on the floor. And PD’s still looking for her cell phone she told her friend Twilight to hold during the 1st round while Ava’s trying to hide her steal bat before they come. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
No. Shes just self important bore and attention whore with nothing to add but threats and nonsense. On the plus side-her posts do help to put those who have trouble sleeping, out cold instantly. Silver lining and all that. Wait now….. here comes the diatribe to me in 3….2….1….
*lol* NarcAngel, @those who have trouble sleeping. 😉
PD , Ava,
What does it matter to you whether or not I’m new to the blog?
You’re either HG himself, or clearly some desperate low life defending an anonymous coward narcissist of a “man”, cheap ass lieutenants…
You’re empathic.
And the rope just keeps being extended….
Vashti
You have shown exactly what you are,
The simple fact you became angry when HG said he didn’t like the song you posted, at that point you began insulting and insinuating he is manipulating, gaslighting and gaining fuel from you. PROJECTING and trying to get the reaction you want from him.
By the way this is just a place to gain insight and learn from HG not a place for him to gain any significant fuel.
You should be very thankful the 5 rules are in place because you would be running with your tail tucked between your legs if he could let loose on you. In this area you are out matched.
So I will repeat myself you may want to go home reflect upon your own actions and take yourself off the pedestal you have placed yourself upon.
Twilight,
A low self esteem cheap lieutenant.. And HG’s easy prey empath all at thw same time.
And the ropes around the necks of you and any other lieutenant are held by the hamds of your ownselves. ;). I am glad to blessed with clean hands;). Isn’t to God always the Glory;). Do you see HOW LONG 😉 you’ve all (those who though with a ‘crowd’ they could try me) been trying the B.S. with me? – ONLY to get YOUR OWN HANDS DIRTY 😉 so much so your need to delude yourselves of reality;)? Maybe there’s point you’re not getting 💅
wow…. I’m getting lots of mentions today…. i’m getting more attention from you than I had in yonks from the narc 😀 yay me! i do matter after all 😀 is this what ‘fuel’ feels like HG? 😉
I don’t have shortcomings.. Anything I’ve wanted, I’ve gotten solidly and am improving. So don’t, flatter, yourself on what you think you may. Too bad you can’t say they same as some sorry life dependent on people narcissist in hiding. Sam shows his face, ta.
Lol, ‘running your mouth’. Being a narcissist so called “greater”, doesn’t mean you’re, GLAD-TI- ATOR.
Anything else?
Lol, “Anything else ?” Yet you haven’t even blocked me and you supposedly couldn’t care. You need me 💅. #Fuel
Why would I block you? I don’t block anybody, never have, never will. That suggests you matter.
Vashti
You could never provide HG fuel. You are far too unrefined.
EXACTLY, HG.
NarcAngel,
By your name alone, just take everything I’m saying to HG as something I’d say to you breifly before getting away and out from your vicinity.
HG
You should see maintenance for the blog. There is a persistent crazed and high pitched squeal. It appears to be trying to convey something but intelligence eludes it and it cannot make itself clear while it continues to thrash about. I find when this type of thing occurs ironically a silent treatment solves the problem while it burns itself out.
I put a call out to them. They asked if I had switched it off and back on again. I explained there had been plenty of switching already. I have sent for the Devil’s Toolkit.
HG
Im going to encourage the silent thing and get back to business with the commenters who have something to offer. It probably has not occurred to her that every senseless comment she makes is driving up the blog stats and making this site and you more of a success. No fuel required.
I know you did. Because clearly, you needed the help.
‘Cause you’re so smart. *tilts head* 💅
NarcAngel: *lol* @persistent squeal 🙂 Hahaha.
Uhm, BTW, HG:
“Why would I block you? I don’t block anybody, never have, never will. That suggests you matter.”
When I blocked my ex-narc on a number of channels and for more than 10 different e-mail-addresses and phone numbers – that was still fuel to him????
That was with reference to one person and blocking on the blog, Ava101. It was not stated in the context of the narcissist-victim dynamic.
Thank you. Great relief.
No blocking on the blog. Ok, got it.
Vashti
You may want to go back and do some reflecting on yourself my dear. Your aggressive behavior and outlook on yourself is starting to show you in a very different light. You may want to tuck that in.
Twilight,
That someone would have to “tuck” something in for you, especially when you should be minding your business and are not in any way being attacked personally is indicative your self esteem is low.
Vashti
I made an observation to the situation
If I have a problem with someone I come to them, I stated facts based on your behavior. You have done nothing but try to provoke a man that has tried to speak with you logically. Yet repeatedly try and switch things back onto him.
Lieutenant and again you are stating facts incorrectly.
It is obvious I have struck a nerve.
Ha ha ha ha ha, like I said 💅.
Vashti
Why do you hold so much anger within?
You, your thoughts, your words and everything about you is irrelevant.. And you can’t ask me anything 💅
Twilight,
You, your thoughts, your words and everything about you is irrelevant.. And you can’t ask me anything 💅
Vashti
You have made it very clear where you stand.
I do hope you find a constructive way of unleashing your anger.
It’s where you stand I’ve made very clear as well.
Where I stand?
You believe I am one of HGs lieutenants, what brought you to this belief?
Vashti: speaking of names – does your nick refer to the Persian or the Biblical version of “Vashti”?
None of your beeswax.
What’s going on with you today that you’re kind’ve gaslighting and seeking fue on the blog G?
I’m doing neither and your attempts to suggest to the contrary are transparent and symptomatic of your attempt to manipulate because you ran away.
Maybe Indy needs to get on here with some brownies and people will “chill” on the entire aggressiveness.
I believe I have ran out of fingers on how many times you have said you gather little fuel here and now your gas lighting people.
My only question is why do people insist on trying to provoke you lately? Doing it in a challenging way that is thought provoking would be nice to read instead of the nonsense,
Wondering why is it so important to so many that you gain Fuel from them here? It is just coming across as if they want to be providing some vast amount over what you have explained repeatedly doesn’t happen here. Then again maybe I just need some sleep 😴.
You may well be right Twilight.
Indeed. People here are not known to me. They are remote strangers which means that the fuel provided is at the lowest level – the book Fuel makes this very clear and as you have identified I have repeatedly stated that.
I have no need to manipulate anybody on the blog because
1. The blog is not here to provide me with fuel;
2. It is counter productive to a constructive blog; and
3. The 5 rules prevent it anyway.
What happens is that a minority when they realise they have no effective argument fall back on starting “you are doing this for fuel” to mask their own shortcomings. Of course this individual will keep going on and on like a stuck record. The accusation re fuel is also indicative of a sense of self-importance.
Lmbf with thee PROJECTION.
😅😅😅 – Who the hell in the world starved you of fuel today!?😅😅😅
And you better approve of my all of my comments, because your cheating trying to attribute to ME, precisely what it is that I’m calling YOU out for. 😅
– Then lying to readers about something that never happened. 😅 (Ran from what?)
– BUT I understand that lies, control (of the blog) and cheating are part of the narcs game! HA ! You must feel very threaten, AND… – you have a reason too.
Sincerely 💅.
1. Not starved of fuel. I gain plenty in my private life and even if I didn’t do you think the trickle from your reaction would suffice? You are flattering yourself if you think your fuel is of any significance.
2. Look at that sense of entitlement. “You better approve all of my comments”. Tut, tut.
3. I am not lying. You ran away. Do you not remember? You had an opportunity to engage but you ran from it with a list of excuses.
4. There are no lies here. Hence why I have responded. I am not threatened by you in the slightest, but I know you will keep trotting out this line because it is all you can do. The facts speak for themselves. You ran away and instead resort to making baseless allegations.
Twilight,
It’s because you need sleep. Night night dear.
Vinshti
I may have been tired, but you missed my point in that.
Ava I had a brownie once when I went back home, needless to say I have not had another sense or think I ever will again. When I came off that “high” I was really 😡. And people wonder why I have trust issues. Never trust the brownies. Lol
What shortcomings? And when did a run away from a challenge from you?
Also, how am I, telling you that you seek fuel on the blog a sense of self importance?
I’m very important. And you’re engaging me.
You are not very important. I engage with everybody on the blog so you are not in a class of one are you?
Your statement of course is indicative.
How would you know whether or not I was a minority?
I do not know what you are referring to. If you could be specific I shall answer.
1) You’re manipulative because you don’t approve of certaim comments, like one of the corrections I made, purposely to make what I said appear otherwise and because you believe doing that gives you the upper hand… But you don’t know me HG… Hence when I stated “you better” (not in the way you’re trying to make it appear) because you’re dishonest.
And 2) You still have specified when and what challenge I ran away from with a list of excuses or what those so called excuses was? I don’t make excuses. Clearly you are lying. We know it. You need fuel.
Based upon this interaction here, I now know, the so called rukes aren’t real and don’t exist.
1. Your message was apparent. Notice how you have kept issuing threats, demands etc and seeking to provoke. I could readily trash those posts but I do not. I am not dishonest here. I have no need to be dishonest and the rules prevent that.
2. I have explained this to you in a separate message. You sought to engage with me and then did not do so with various excuses. I am not concerned by that at all, but if you want to suggest you are some kind of Charlie Big Bananas then you need to back it up. Don’t assert something when there’s nothing behind it.
Yes I need fuel. I freely admit this over and over again but if you paid any attention to the fuel index and what has been written, YOU are a tertiary source because you are a remote stranger and your fuel is low grade, in small quantities and intermittent. My fuel needs are served in my private life by my primary and secondary sources (read the articles about Fuel Matrices).
The fact is you did not like the fact that I told you I did not like the song you put forward yesterday. That is the truth. I do not like it, but instead, you have tried to tell me how I should regard this song and then you suggest my response is based on the need to draw fuel from you. It isn’t. I just do not like the song. I am not alone in that – two other readers confirmed they do not like it either, so it is hardly stretching the possibility that I might not like it either does it? Your response was one of someone wounded by my honest remark. Thereafter you have repeatedly sought to provoke me and I have merely pointed out that you are incorrect in your assertion over what is, all told, a trivial matter.
I don’t want brownies anymore, I want cookies now.
It is not all I can do. And your knowing the very fact of that, bothers the hell out you 💅
Not in the slightest.
I don’t have shortcomings.. Too bad you can’t say they same as some sorry life dependent on people narcissist in hiding. Sam shows his face.
Yawn.
OMG synchronicities. I was just about to yawn when I read your “yawn”, HG.
Ha ha, for the avoidance of doubt, it was a virtual yawn to signify that I am finding the repetition and failure to comprehend the point being advanced by me tiresome.
Why can’t I have self importance.. ? Funny, but I also know you’re a narcissist so whether or not I’m a minority, you must survive in your delusion that you’re above everyone anyway. It’s the fact of your poor reality. “Tut, tut”. You should be thanking me I even gave you supply today, ta 💅
I didn’t say I was thee only important person. I’m just a person who is speaking for myself.
I didn’t say I was thee only important person. I’m just a person who is speaking for myself.
You’re nobody to say whether I’m important or not.
If you suggest that you are of importance to me, I am entitled to explain that you are not. If you wish to consider yourself important nonetheless, you are of course entitled to do so.
This isn’t a “class” to me. I already known about narcissism by my own intelligence and already had others who do they same as you (and LONG BEFORE YOU) that I’ve learned a thing or two from.
You classify narcissism different from. We focus on overt and covert. – Which is very important. You have different ‘schools’ of narcissism.
You want me to specify what I’m taljing about and you’re to coward to specify the lie you’re talking about.
But here : “What happens is that a minority when they realise they have no effective argument fall back on starting “you are doing this for fuel” to mask their own shortcomings. “
Thank you for the clarification.
You are in the minority which engages in using the “you do it for fuel” card which the refuge of those who have nowhere to go. It is a poor move because I have explained (and if you read the book Fuel) you will see that you are a tertiary source and your fuel is low grade, in a small quantity and intermittent, so it is not worth my effort to obtain fuel from you.
I pointed out I did not like the song you selected. It is that straight forward.
I’ve never issued threats, demands or have tried to provoke you.
A “seperate message” ? You’re talking about the brief email conversation? – I’ve never made excuses for not continuing to engage you. What I said was valid. Excuses? For I can simply disengage you without any excises at all.
And that brief conversation was not even a challenge. I stated a few points and your response was not good enough for me, as a concious person. Though I did have other alternative things in mind.
Reread (you don’t really have to because you know you’re lting amd understood this the first time) that thread and up your comprehension skills G. I don’t care if you disliked the song. I mean what’s it to me. I just saw through what you were doing. I mean it’s what you do..
Ava,
What does it matter to you whether or not I’m new to the blog?
You’re either HG himself, or clearly some desperate low life defending an anonymous coward narcissist of a “man”, cheat ass lieutenant…
You’re empathic.
“Ha ha, for the avoidance of doubt, it was a virtual yawn to signify that I am finding the repetition and failure to comprehend the point being advanced by me tiresome.”
I am fully aware of what you’re doing and we both know I know what you’re doing HG 😅
Fuel is the point.
I recommend you read it.
Vashti: you cannot distinguish between different people? That’s interesting.
Reread what I have written and what your answer is to me …
*lol*
Is “emphatic” a swear word to you?
Why do you think I am?
Ha ha ha. Show us where I said I was of importance to… YOU. – Because that is not even important… FOR ME.
You know full well what you’re doing. You always talk about how you do it to your girlfriend all the time, bu switchig up what she said to make her forget thee intial agrument or conversation 😊, remember?
I don’t have to resort a “this is for fuel” excuse because everybody who follows you knows everything you do and decision you make is for fuel.
Secondly, this is my first time ever pointing out you thrist of it on the blog. So I can not be apart of that so called minority of people seeking refuge in the so called “fuel accusations”..
And so what if they did (and/or I am) pointing out that your thristy for it.
Ava,
HG purposely approved the comment addressing you amd did not approve of the one I sent right after with thee correction addressing and narrowing you and PD in one stone.
“Is “emphatic” a swear word to you?
Why do you think I am?”
Boy are you slow…
Well, Vashti, all you do is abusing people when you have no rational answer and therefore there is no point in answering to what you said. In accordance to your nick – the Hebrew meaning “being drunk” seems to be more fitting than the Persian one (there certainly is no beauty in your words) – I cannot even begin to guess at what your irrational, dizzy rants are supposed to convey. They show you as needy … nothing to do with me.
Ava,
AND your stupid. WOW. – 💅
And as stupid as Twilight talking about stating “facts incorrectly”.. – HOW DO YOU STATE A FACT INCORRECTLY ! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Incredible.
how old were you when the aunt did that? and were you her only victim? also, would you ever consider counseling children to help them from abusive situations and past experiences. if i can pull my kids to talk to you for some enlightenment, i will. you have a gift of communication and getting the message through to people who need it. thank you.
It took place when I was young over a number of years.
I was the only victim in the family.
I do not think that counselling is something that sits with what I am. I can certainly convey the information and do so in an effective manner (thank you for your compliment in that regard) so I can deliver the facts and assist understanding, but I cannot do the empathic element of it all.
HG
Well there goes Tudors Tot Minders.
I did not know it happened *over a number of years*. I really feel for you, HG. It must have been terrible not being heard and protected and to deal with your anger and pain during such a long time. It must have been devastating at such a young age. I would have felt lonely and distressed.
As for your answer to geminimom’s comment about empathy, it is not about saying something like “I’m sorry” just to be polite. You are good at giving validation. It is very important for victims to be believed, understood and to be taken seriously and you are already doing this on this blog.
Thank you for sharing that Mr. Tudor. Recently, Milo Yiannopoulos resigned from Breitbart because of some controversial comments he made about the topic of adolescents and sexual experience. I actually watched his interview and he was not advocating child sexual abuse but stating that he as a 12 year old was the predator and seeking sexual experience. I am not agreeing with his viewpoint nor can I relate. I am curious if you have any thoughts on the topic. If the discussion is too personal, I understand.
Are you asking whether I was the predator when I was a young boy?
God no! I do not deny your abuse. I was just asking your thoughts about his words.
Well is your question then, can a 12 year old be a sexual predator with an adult? Be specific.
Honestly I just wanted to know how you felt about his statement. Since I am not a male, a narcissist, nor experienced sexual abuse as a child, I don’t know how to digest his words.
Love, my first love said he was 13 when he was the first time with a woman, my sister, too (with a guy). There is a theory that this is a substitute behaviour for real affectiin and intimacy, and that children without normal affection from parents develop sexually earlier than others. And also that abused people act out.
AVA101
I would agree with your assessment.
Your aunt…….
anger is putting things lightly, this is probably the only time I could ever feel absolutely nothing in regards to a punishment for those who hurt children in such a way.
OMG HG. That is awful. I really feel for you. How dare she. Could you not disclose it to dad? I know the era was different then and as a society we are much more aware of this. So even although you abuse you have a terrible story within. Do you think you became a narc because of this abuse? Again I feel for you not that you know what that is but it’s to say how dare she!!!
Thank you SVR. This and other matters, along with a genetic predisposition made me what I am.
No I could not disclose it to my father, he knew, but there was no point.
I know I don’t have all the information, but, if your dad knew about the sexual abuse you were suffering, HG, and didn’t do anything about it because he feared repercussions, he was a pathetic coward. An abuser too, imo. That’s not normal.
I had some sympathy for him until now. Not anymore.
You said once he was a Standard Empath. I am not so sure about that now. A standard bastard maybe.
i think your dad was your step dad and the grandmother was your moms mom. and the uncle and aunt the brother and sister of your mom. am i right? if it is written in a story all ready then excuse me i havent read it yet.
also, what did your aunt do to you? thank you.
My father was my natural father. Grandmother referred to in the article is maternal grandmother.
Uncle is brother of Matrinarc, aunt is his wife.
My aunt sexually abused me.
HG,
Touchy subject so I ask with caution. Is it your mom’s brothers wife that did the abusing? Or was it an aunt on your father’s side? Also, are you or did you have a twin?
Mother’s sister in law.
Thanks for that. Shes a Bitch for hurting my unknown narcissist
guide. Did you hate her?
Why did she have the opportunity? Was she supposed to take care of you? Did your mother know? Did you feel safe with your grandmother?
Because it was engineered that way. It will be detailed in Little Boy Lost. Yes she knew but acted as if she did not.
I felt safe in my tree.
I wish I didn’t understand this the way I do, for one to understand that this was done purposefully to them.
I am so sorry HG, I am it stating what happened to me was worse just it was arranged to happen, and no one did anything but look the other way. Until my mentor.
Did you have anyone you trusted at that time?
Me.
I understand
You deserve peace, and I believe one day you will achieve it. It might not be in the way many here see peace, but in your way.
HG do you think you may decide to let this anger you hold on to so tightly go? You nurture a shame and guilt that was never yours. I know much has been done to bury this and rightly so. It does start with trusting someone. I do hope one day you decide to take this step, yet I am fully aware you may never.
I am sure you understand thou where I stand with trust.
It is not anger Twilight, it is fury. It remains there because it is part of what I am.
Embtacing an anger and nurturing it till it turned to fury, at that point it becomes part of you.
If I may why do you want to hold so tightly to this fury? Is it because it’s all you have ever known?
I do apologize I am running with my thoughts at the moment.
I do not hold on to it, it is part of me.
It wasn’t at one time thou
Hello HG,
I am very sorry that you had to experience such abuse. You have made me more aware of what is going on around me but you also have made me really pay attention to any new or out of the ordinary behaviors of the kids in my class. I know I can only control what goes on in my classroom but I pay extra attention now because of your stories. Who knows what goes on in their homes when they leave me. I do have to attend childhood abuse class every three years and it’s beyond heartbreaking. But it’s another thing when you actually hear it from a real individual.
I notice some days you can give us more details than others and I know you have saved most of the stories for your books. But I wanted to ask if your fuel levels at the time allow you to answer more or less and does the day that you have a therapy session affect what you share here?
You are correct with regard to the variables you mention in your final paragraph SW.
HG
Did you have a favourite Teacher, or one that had much more impact than the others? And if so-for what reasons?
I assume you are referring to secondary school (ages 11-16). My English teacher. Writing and public speaking.
HG,
This is heartbreaking reading about your sexual abuse, and how at just 10, that triggered your narcissistic traits and killed the carefree little boy.
Truly amazing how you managed to constantly be at the top of your class, develop a great sense of humour, and built your career. Quite impressive!
How does a little boy handle such a trauma without any help? It’s infuriating.
💓
How horrific for you HG. Just awful xx
Wow.. I never knew that… Im sorry ..
Dear HG that is just horrible! What a terrible woman and I do hope she got what she deserved for that! If not please let me know if I can be of your assistant, I´m a master of revenge 🙂
Thank you for the offer Karma, it is all in hand however.
Don’t ever think you can toy with me HG 😊… But do know, that I can toy with you… If and when I really want ;).
Yeah yeah.
Is that a challenge?
Well you’re not!
I will. And your new name is CreamVanillaProperBean. Would you prefer Mr.CreamVanillaProperBean. It’s a nice one isn’t it? 😏
I’m still not telling you the pet one.
HG works perfectly well. Thank you ta.
I will. And your new name is CreamVanillaProperBean. Would you prefer Mr.CreamVanillaProperBean. It’s a nice one isn’t it? 😊
I’m still not telling you the pet one.
HG is the one to use. Thank you ta.
OR … CookieDough.
I’ll let you pick.
“ta” ? Do explain.
I have really good reason for the soft names choosen for you.
If I was to call you “Master Greater Gladiator”, you’d have no problem.
It is a short form of ‘thank you’.
Infact, others will know the pet name (code name), except for you.
How’s that?
No it wasnt. And it’s even close to me. But since I learned new information about you in your conversation with geminimom .. I’m going to say that much for this comment thread..
Oh let me say.. Since you say I’m not challenge, (and I know you know otherwise) . . Let me know, for how you plan on thee aliases. I want to make it shorter.
– Vashti (Thee Narc Conqueror)
You’re not a challenge, you ran away, remember? We both know you did.
“Ran away” ? From what challenge? When?
Boy do you love to try to gaslight.
No gas lighting. The 5 rules prevent it.
You had the chance to engage with me but you ran away from it with a host of excuses.
Specify when and what you’re talking about? You can’t because it’s a lie and this is all fuel hun..
I can. You sought to engage with me but then failed to do so.
HG, if you don’t mind me asking.. does part of the reason you’re giving your taught and learned ‘secrets’ have to do with your age dear?
Not at all. Since you refer to me as dear, you must clearly recognise I am younger than you, old dear.
I won’t say wether or not your statement is correct. But sorry if you are in anyway offended.
No I am not offended but I recognise the grace of your apology.
Love
For some even a cookie is a tool of power. Everything must be earned and they have the power. You are made to understand that every simple pleasure has a price and they can name it. You are worthy of no delight unless they grant it, even though it appears others have it at will. If you do earn it you are reminded that it was because they made it possible for you and deemed you worthy. This time.
I’m sorry NarcAngel if you had to experience that. I would love to send you and Mr. Tudor an assortment of cookies and you can eat all you want. Nothing is required in return. No strings attached ❤🍪❤
Love
Thank you. Peanut butter and oatmeal are my two favourite. Hard and cold like my heart though please-no warm and gooey for me. I’ll leave them down low so HG doesnt have to climb when he returns later lol.
Lol! I love and have missed your humor NarcAngel. 😂
If you are sending cookies, I like soft oatmeal and the Neiman Marcus recipe cookies. PLEEEEEESE.
Anything for you, Ah Oh 🍪
That is my girl.
I make really great salads. Ingredients such as fennel, chic peas, grapefruit and lemon. Another one is Brussel sprouts and apples. pineapple and cucumbers. Lots of summer salads I enjoy and I am sure you will do.
They sound delicious Ah Oh.
Gee Narc Angel – you just threw a bucket of the ice water of my childhood in my face! 💦 Caught me off guard! Thank God those years are behind me!
Windstorm
Sorry for the collateral damage.
I’ve wanted you to listen to this song by ome of my favorite UK artist Marina (Marina and the diamonds. BEAUTIFUL and uniqur voice. She’s very intelligent and amazing. Alot of her songs are about emotional intelligence. She (like you) talks about emotional intelligence all the time. Song : “Numb”
https://youtu.be/ylLpplWSrNk
You say you feel nothing, but I know you will listen to this all the time.
No I won’t listen to it all the time, I don’t like it. The staccato style of singing doesn’t appeal.
agree
Lol and may you breifly explain “staccato”?
What do you think of the lyrics amd the message?
Any message was lost by the singing
Oh I see. You mean like her words are spaced out as in e.g. (lyrics) : “- like -ah – gold-fish”.
No. They are delivered like a club singer in a short sharp manner.
But HG, thank you for pointing that out, because you understand why she’s purposely singing those specific lyrics that way right?
No. I found the style of singing not to my liking.
Lol. So you never understood nor got the message of the song and how she’s blantantly talking abouy narcissism ????? Lol. I know exactly whay you’re doing. SEEKING FUEL. 😂
– AND A “CLUB SINGER” ?? 😂 Dont attack Marina, just to attack me.
Know what I think…….? I think the song hit home for you HG…
It didn’t hit home. I didn’t like it and told you as such. Maybe you should accept that I didn’t like it. Just because it may be about narcissism does not mean I have to like it.
And I enjoyed reading this article..
Good, I am pleased you did.
“It didn’t hit home. I didn’t like it and told you as such. Maybe you should accept that I didn’t like it. Just because it may be about narcissism does not mean I have to like it.” – Ha ha ha! I KNEW you were after FUEL! Lol. Who said you had to like it. I just wanted you to get yhe message you really did get the very first time 😅
LET THE FUEL IGNITE!
Anna,
While their may be enhancements on the sound track instrumentsls and her voive maybe, they aren’t heavy electronics for voice . That’s how her voice truly is. Watch her live. I like her alot what she does woth her voice. Especially in her songs “Sex Yeah” and “Teen Idle”.
She’s really great at writing about and prefectly conveying narcisssm in her music.
A short sharp manner … When you know we were saying the same damn thing..
Don’t be mad at me for too long HG. I want to know what songs you listen to or know is about narcissism (?)
I am not mad with you Vashti.
Or maybe not..
Vashti,
Let me chime in. As a music afficiando I will agree with HG. The songstress isn’t “singing”. She is staccato and has heavy electronic enhancements to her voice. The lyrics may be good…i didn’t make it even one minute in…..but she can’t sing. It was painful.
I enjoy all the stories that you share of your childhood. It shows how, why, and where some of your behaviors started.
Do you use that same exact malicious stare that you perfected way back then?
And I love warm cookies!!! I would rather eat them that way compared to when they cool.
Thank you and yes I do.
Snow White
I’m replying here, but it is to the comment you made about being a Teacher and watching over the children in your class. Never underestimate the power you have in that role. I had a few very good Teachers who knew that despite my trying to hide it, there was something very wrong with my home life. They were very subtle in the way that they handled it and gave me opportunity to open up but of course I did not. But I wanted to, and sometimes very badly it wanted to come tumbling out. I knew though that they would have to act on it and I knew what the result of that would be (things may be different now) and so I remained silent. They did not press (and that was the right thing to do or I would have withdrawn from them altogether). They stayed friendly but at a distance and made opportunities to be alone briefly with me should I want to talk. One Teacher in high school who was very kind to me asked if she could employ me to care for her children occasionally and during the summer but I of course was doing that at home and had a part-time job so I declined. But it meant a lot to me because I believed that it was not just for her benefit but that she trusted me, saw that I could use the money, and I suspect if I got closer to her, might talk. There was another-a very abrasive math Teacher who had a reputation as being mean and most kids hated his class, who took me aside to say that he knew I was so much smarter than the marks I was getting and that he noticed I was sometimes on the verge of falling asleep (he smiled and said he wouldnt take it personal which made me smile too). I told him only that I had a part-time job and responsibilities at home that prevented proper sleep (it was of course because I was always on guard). He knew I would not admit and so he told me that if I needed sleep and would not be able to pay attention in class that I could tell him before class and he would arrange for me to go to the Nurses station to nap without anyone else knowing. I thanked him but of course I never did. That they showed me these kindnesses caused a lot of conflict in me (shame, rage that I was different, etc) but I never forgot them and appreciate even more now as an adult because I can see more clearly their intention.
Well that was a very long way to tell you what you already know- that a good Teacher is so much more than that, but sometimes they dont even know what an impact they have had and I wanted to honor their efforts by telling you.
NA,
Thank you for sharing all that!!!!’
It is very very hard to know what goes on at home for all my students. I teach 5 and 6 year olds and they can be very honest. I make sure I listen and try to give them one on one attention and love because I know some of them don’t get that when they leave me. They need a place to feel loved and safe.
Many are just now dealing with divorced parents for the first time and you see many changes in behaviors.
Some have anger issues already and don’t know how to deal with it.
All they want is love and someone to hug them.
It’s been an emotional week already for me but reading everyones’ posts about abuse really brought out my empathy.
I enjoyed reading everything that you wrote about recalling the teachers that made a difference in your life.
Sorry for all your pain. ❤️❤️❤️
BTW, can you put your fur lined bra away yet or is it still cold there?
I haven’t read the article yet but that it the most normal image I have seen on this blog so far.
I don’t understand why there are conditions with being able to eat a cookie. Maybe it is because I’m not a parent, but my enjoyment comes from seeing others eat. I love cooking for friends and family. I loved watching my ex lovers go back for seconds and thirds. I bake cookies for my co-workers all the time. I don’t limit them to only one.
And I spoil the kids in my family. Probably because I don’t see them all the time. To watch a child’s face light up with delight is a beautiful thing …. They radiate happiness. I’m sure your smile was pure and joyful once upon a time.
A good mother parent would never make cookies when child could not eat them right away. So no baking right before dinner. ANd no baking if you didn’t want them to eat. The cookies were being used as rewards. Like dog treats. Not as food to enjoy and experience and savor.
Maybe. But HGs grandmother had most likely lived through two world wars, and my grandmother had some far more extreme stories to tell about treats. From my mother, I got one bite of chocolate a week. It wasn’t normal at all for children to get sweets all the time, they were always special.
Maybe. I don’t know. But given the sense of I have of the mother (is this your maternal grandmother HG?) it seems it could be used as some kind of weapon. Something in it seemed to trigger HG in this story and I wonder if it was so much the sister and the opportunity to use the perfected ‘stare’. My grandmother also lived through the great depression but she didn’t have problems eating treats alot. She was controling in every other way. I could not open the refrigerator door without her asking what I wanted. I could not just open it and stare in and think about food. She could hear the fridge opening from across the apartment.
Was food a controled item in your upbringing HG?
Yes maternal grandmother.
Mealtimes were a very controlled environment.
I assumed so. And I imagine the kitchen was immaculate? Everything in place? Clean and ordered? Meals were also very controled in my world for reasons in that it was the times, but also, my mother. Also, my upbringing. Diplomat’s daughter. So you can imagine, no? Full course meals, proper place settings and manner.s The day I got to take a plate to the table with just grab a fork to eat was freedom. Or take a bowl of ceral outside in the sun to eat, freedom. Sort of like ceral commercials. rotfl.
My family did not even eat in the same room. The children ate in the kitchen while Mom and StepN ate in the livingroom watching tv. We were not to talk, (if we did we were yelled at to be quiet from the other room), eat quickly, and then clean the kitchen and do the dishes. We also ate different food than them. And no, I dont mean like now where parents will often make chicken fingers or mini pizzas because the children are finicky or would not enjoy the salmon the adults were eating. I mean we ate stuff like mackerel and onions over boiled potatoes or chicken livers and hearts, and always canned vegetables (I thought I was in another world, and raved when I first tasted steamed fresh vegetables while my friends family stared at me), while they might be eating (especially him) steak or pork chops. He didnt like mashed potatoes so we never had them unless we were at someone elses house. He also kept a bag of Oreo cookies up in the cupboard for himself that we were not to touch (oh I touched them alright haha). Good times.
This conversation reminded me of some things. In my teens, I spent some time with a friend and her family at their beach house. I was ravenous. Everything tasted so good. The father of my friend commented to my mother if she fed me at all because I ate so much. I was always very naturally thin. I didn’t have an eating disorder then at all. Then I was thinking of how I did develop one a few years later and not out of any body image issues. I never thought of this until now but looking back, I know when I developed it. Sitting at the table with narcmother, stepfather (he never had an ounce of my respect or care for legitimate reasons) and step brother. Stepbrother was rebelling against the Rules and I had constant indigestion. I also was being abused by a boyfriend but had no one to talk to.
The beach story was when steps came into my life and my life had been blown up by narc mother. I hated existing in the same room with them. And I am guessing, I didn’t eat much. So I devoured food away from them. Then, later, it was the tense, controlled (step father was prone to rage and I could not stand him) environment and no support for my life. Enter, eating problems. It became something I could control. It was never about looks as my body was great and fine. It was all about surviving the tense, extremely uncomfortable daily forced meals together.
Ava101
Re: Granny and times past.
Thats a fair point and one we would do well to still be observing. Treats are no longer just that, but an expected extension of our diet. I do not however consider it a treat if I am expected to earn it or it is lorded over me. It then becomes payment or ransom. I refused plenty.
NarcAngel: I understand that. But I also understand that it used to be considered a nice way to teach children that some chores need to be done. Might not be the best way, many methods were strange from our point of view.
In regard to my grandmother: sweet treats were very special (though I got gummi-candy when I visited her … like gummy bears, but a bit bigger). She told me a story that when they had to move in with a whole bunch of cousins in WWII because their house was destroyed, they had self made jam which was very special, because they hardly had enough food at all. And one of the kids secretly ate a spoonful and got caught. He had to eat the whole jar at once till he got sick, to teach him a lesson …
And she always valued her food in later years, never forgetting those times. My mother never eats junk food.
My other grandfather though always bought me my favourite chocolate.
Sorry for straying off topic. 😉
Ava101
Haha. Not off topic to me, but best we dont branch out from treats to gluten free muffins or we will suffer the Wrath of Tudor. You brought up an interesting point, and in no way am I picking on your family, but I have witnessed this phenomenon of punishment by excess previously and it fascinates me. So jam was hard to come by and he stole a spoonful. HIS punishment was to deny anyone else the precious jam by being forced to eat it til it was gone and he was sick. Hmmm. In my mind, now there is no jam and no one enjoyed it. Not sure the winner there. My brother was assigned once to weeding the garden. He pulled out everything, good and bad. Claimed not to know the difference. His punishment was never to be assigned to that task again. It was given to someone else. Genius. People around me are always helping out one child over the others by explaining that they do not make as much as the others (but they have money for tattoos and bars). I ask: well why would they want to improve themselves when they can be subsidized? I am told I cant understand becayse Im not a parent. I say, no I dont understand because I am intelligent. It seems like being punished for doing good (not stealing jam or not fkg up your chores, or getting ahead and doing well. Look who is off topic now. Sorry but that has occurred to me before and your story reminded me. All I know is: Im pissed I didnt get offered more treats. (I took them though). Think I’ll call my brother lol.
ava101, HG has a post pending of my in response maybe cause I had some questions also for him in it. But yes, WWII and the Great Depression did leave a legacy that expressed itself in differrent ways with people especially depending on one’s social and economic status. It was very generational and mixed in with completely different ideas of child rearing from back then and it can be hard to understand the differences or lose track of how life was then.
There is a difference between the enjoymen tof something that is rare and hard to come by and unspoken price tags. One can use treats as rewards in parenting without also conveying the sense of withholding something as a means to exert power. My sense in this story is that there was some big power play going on which is why HG reacted as he did. There was no sense of play in the story from what I felt.
Narc manipulated money out of me and I tried to back out. He went all in with the guilt trips and I fell for them. And then he tried to disappear on me once he had the money. Then later asked me or hinted at wanting more money but he had already accused me of loaning it to try to own him. And it was absolutely not true. I had tried to get out of it and should have just said no but lordy, I was worried about HIS feelings around letting him down. (rolling eyes at myself, that was his guilt trip) He then still wanted my help after accusing me of trying to own him. When I asked him last year, what he ever did for me, he went on a rage response and split, but it was true. So this whole exchange of resources, a cookie or money, gets very wierd with people. The moment the money left my hand, I regretted the action and never saw it as a way to ‘own’ or control him. I was horrified at what ‘we had done’ thinking it would negatively affect our great friendship. Never getting that it was no big deal to him and he had tricked me more or less into lending it. It was a no win for me. Something in this story was a no win I think for HG which is why he brought out his stare and snuck back in to eat the cookies. Just my sense. Something not fully being told in this story….
NarcAngel:
haha, yes, well done by your brother in a passive aggressive way. I got out of pulling weeds by shouting at my father and making a huuuuge fuss. (Well he woke me up at 8 o’clock on a Saturday morning for that without warning ….). And by refusing.
But I was a bit older then.
No, there is often not much fairness in how different children are treated.
Jam: No, it’s not really the logical thing to do. I also never understood what good it was to sacrifice the whole jar. Maybe sacrifice one jar to keep 5 other jars safe … 😉
My grandmother told me that story when I wouldn’t stop eating nutella out of the jar with a spoon. The thought of eating the whole jar didn’t seem like a punishment to me.
I think maybe it was to make someone sick as a taste deterance. LOL. Like you would throw up and then not ever be so gluttonous again?
My brother was a master at getting out of doing things. Shame my parents didn’t come down on him harder and hold him to reality. Everytime he got away with something like that, he got more and more separated from the reality of what it takes to live and make a life somehow. He got further and further from some truths about life. He paid the ultimate price for it.
Have you written novels or screenplays?
This story illustrates so much.
I have written two novels Seduction and Ensnared. I plan to write others when time allows. I have much information about narcissism etc to convey in the meanwhile.
HG,
Do you use the same style of writing the blog as you do with your novels?
I have varying styles.
Karin, I have read both Seduction and Ensnared. You won’t be able to put them down. Then, join me in ‘pestering’ HG to hurry and release Part Three ‘Unmasked’.
This story made me feel bad for you. As did your siblings as they enjoyed the togetherness, sharing of joy with their grandma, the warmth of the moment and their hearts. All of which you are not able to experience.
Did you really think your grandma wouldn’t forgive your younger brother if he really stole the cookie and left a trail of crumbs, even if it were your set up? You see, in our view, she would smile and hug him, happy he loves her cookies.
It is you who misinterpret us all the time, you perceive things that aren’t there, your pettiness doesn’t hurt us, your delusions don’t hurt us. They make us feel sad for you.
When you left your grandmas kitchen you only hurt yourself, and made your family feel sad for you, which didn’t diminish the joy of the shared moment one bit.
olol so I guess if you don’t like to read something you don’t like, it’ll be held in moderation… foreva
I thought you were a tougher greater narcisssit who’s not afraid of criticism, which is only a constructive criticism encouraging an exchange, not being a constant game of chess
Are Ah Ok and Narc Angel your lieutenants or you? tsk
Incorrect. Again.
Incorrect about what? I still see the majority of my comments in moderation.
What you had just posted. Yes they are, along with many others from other people.
Emotional Detective
Re: Lieutenants
Yawn. Must that always be the response of those who do not get the cerebral recognition they feel they deserve, their way in having their posts moderated immediately, and/or lose the verbal sparring match they initiated? The tsk goes to you for lashing out at others with baseless accusations over intelligent comment to encourage conversation. I understand though. Youre missing the chaos that existed with the Narc in your life and you need a target. Lash away-Im here for you, but youll have to stand in a very long line and my Morher is at the head of it so youll understand if you have no effect. I would much rather be a lieutenant to intelligence than a victim to ignorance.
BTW-If were assigning titles I think the name Emotional Dick is more appropriate to your demeanour and is less key strokes. See how easy it is to throw tripe around?
Try impressing us with some intelligence. We’ll wait.
Name calling is always a sign of losing an argument, HG.
Good luck with your spinning carousels of posts here and at PF.
1. It was NarcAngel who responded to you, not me, so do put your paranoid conspiracy thoughts to one side. I post under HG Tudor and only that name. Yesterday there were 12 386 visitors to the blog, I have no need, no time or inclination to post under any name but HG Tudor. Believe me, NarcAngel is a different person.
2. I have nothing to do with PF.
3. No idea what you mean by spinning carousels.
Also.. lol you see, I want to convey something to you that you don’t understand, because you helped me understand you through your writing.
Imagine an iceberg, it’s me, it’s us, the empaths and the normals too. We are like icebergs. You, the narcissist sees only the tip of the iceberg. You wish to kick it, thaw it out, climb it, etc.
Down below the sea level the iceberg is what you don’t see, a thousand times larger, wider, and grounded thousands of feet below see level.
This is a metaphor for our emotional life that is invisible and unfamiliar to you. No matter how you try to kick us, hurt us, with your pettiness, sulking, games, etc. we withdraw and submerge in the sea of our inner world. We forget you exist, we feel sorry for you, your little pettiness doesn’t hurt us. Au contraire, often you will initiate an avalanche that will bury you.
Down below, we are immovable, strong like an iceberg. We always recover. We always win. The stronger the abuse, the stronger we get down below.
It’s like a beautiful, eternal music playing in our heads all the time.
You say something evil, abusive, and we see your mouth moving like in a silent movie with subtitles. Our music is loud, echoing throughout the sea down below, and getting more intense and more powerful, especially after experiencing abuse. Your mouth is moving, and all we hear is beautiful arias in our minds.
You see nothing you say or do will ever change anything, there is nothing you can do to stop the music from playing.
Not from what I have repeatedly witnessed.
Did you also witness how long we take your abuse, and take you back repeatedly after you escalate th abuse. How many times do we submit to your hoovers?
Because the music inside is louder and we don’t see the abuse, we explain it away or ignore it completely.
The damage is minor compared to how strong we are inside. We don’t know how strong and beautiful we are until it’s tested. We become stronger after the experience with a narcissist. Ask any survivor and they’ll tell you they discovered an iceberg inside.
Indeed I have witnessed that repeatedly and it is nothing to do with the music inside, but rather the inherent susceptibility you have to our kind.
That is also true, because we naturally care about the well being of others, we recognize and respect each other’s depth, and the soundness of their personal music. It’s more of a feeling of incessant peace, the base of our being.
I feel happy inside all the time, even when I’m sad. Lol, I never thought I’d be explaining emotions to someone.
So then we meet you and we sense something is wrong with your music, then we find out it’s completely missing. How is that even possible? So we want to help you, because it is terrible not to feel happy. And when we help you, it makes our own music more beautiful.
You saw your sister as a doormat, but she felt her music more beautiful when she was caring and giving herself to your mother.
You thought your siblings and your grandmother were just cleaning after baking the cookies. In fact they were creating a symphony together.
Try to understand that we are not weak, you are.
I do not understand what you mean by music. I have only ever seen the weakness of those that have been left in my wake so your final assertion is not borne out by experience. You might look to attach to the some of my kind, but it is not a label that applies to me.
You will not understand what I mean by music just as I will not understand what you mean by fuel. They may be the same thing, it’s just we don’t have to fight to gain it, because we have it by nature.
No, I’m not of your kind. My intelligence and yours are of different nature. Mine comes from the power of empathy, yours is borne out of the lack of it.
Yet I have explained what fuel is and you have not explained what this ‘music’ apparently is.
Intelligence is not borne out of empathy.
I grasp the concept of fuel, but I don’t know what it is.
Intelligence in empaths is connected to empathy, which if you learn what empathy really is from the link I gave you, it makes more sense.
Empathy is more than an emotion, it’s a mechanism that enhances cold understanding of reality via neurons by connecting them to mirror neurons, which are empathy.
There is a spectrum there too, depending how many mirror neurons an empath has. A super empath will have trillions of them, an empath billions, a normal person will have perhaps millions, etc.
You have none. This is why you don’t understand reality at all, you only understand it via normal neurons, the cold intelligence. But in order to have a depth of understanding you need the mirror neurons.
I hope it helps, HG.
Thank you for expanding on that, I appreciate it. I shall have to consider this further.
I think that what happens in some greater narcissists, their cold intelligence seems to make up for their lack of emotional intelligence by an increase in normal neurons, which makes you more intelligent than most, the majority of normal empaths. But it still is not enough to understand the meaning of everything, which is the domain of empathy.
I know a lot about empathy given my frequent involvement with empaths and my observation and study of the same, but I also accept that since I do not feel empathy it also follows that I cannot know everything about it.
I do not accept that being empathic means you understand everything, after all, empathic people frequently fail to understand our kind, that is of course, until I came along.
Well, how could empathy understand the lack of itself.
The majority of empaths still have low levels of mirror neurons. Or they don’t use them because mirror neurons take up a lot of energy. All those empaths that you abused have their mirror neurons shuttered. You heard that from some empaths say: I feel shattered, or I experienced a shuttering. It’s not permanent though, they recover in time.
It’s an interesting evolutionary advancement that im exploring.
I’m not that person in the video on the power of empathy, but that’s where my nickname comes from: emotion detective.
No I know you’re not.
How?
You are toying with me, sir..
Thank you for the conversation today, though.
You are welcome.
Emotion Detective
That is a very good analogy that we are like icebergs . The narcs can never see the 80% of us below water, bc they don’t hv the empathy and ability to truly recognize and feel all that we feel. Even when they think they do, they can not really. It is invisible to them. However, I would add that the narcs are like the sunlight, constantly damaging us where it touches – causing cracks and fissures, melting and pieces to shear off. And while what’s underwater is not damaged, as we are eroded by the sunlight, it is forced to raise up out of the protecting water and be eroded in its turn. The more of this narcissistic sunlight we are exposed to, the more we will be warped and eroded.
Emotional Detective. I love your iceberg analogy. I do feel we empathic individuals are very strong. I’ve been ‘kicked’ my whole life, yet each time, I become wiser and stronger. We are resilient. ❤
Yes we are.
Yes, our eternal music. 🎶 I understand you completely, Emotional. Mine is a song and dance. Mr. Tudor, I see your song being Beethovan’s 9th Symphony.
Already been discussed with Superxena.
Oh I’m sorry I missed that discussion. I do not mean your favorite song, but one that represents you… Your emotions …. Your passions. Perhaps No 9 is not a good match with you. I always felt it was dark and powerful but now that I read about it, its message is of brotherhood. Yes, it is not a good match at all.
Understood
Sorry for the typo, I meant HG does not hear the music.
I wish I hadn’t heard the music supplied by Mona!
Mr. Tudor, you truly don’t hear the music? When outside on a crisp sunny day , does the wind not caress your face, whisper in your ear a soft song, and tingle your fingers? Do you not hear the music of the ocean? The waves crashing in a lullaby. Even the noise on a busy street becomes a sweet melody if you listen long enough. The cars, trains, planes, and construction are the instruments … They provide the down beat.
I can hear the wind. I can hear the sea. I understand what you are driving at but I do not draw from them in the way you describe Love, so if that is what is meant by hearing the music then no, I do not.
There is no rule or regulation in regards to how you hear the music. It seems like you do in your own way.
Thank you
🙂
? Wow, the power of delusion. And how much of the illusion “we” help create ourselves.
EmotionDet. … This is so unfounded what you write … and so self-delusional.
How would you know how many mirror neuron anybody fires in any given moment?
Psychopaths do have mirror neurons. They don’t seem to activate easily. But they might.
Intelligence has nothing to do with that.
And so on.
Iceberg …. everybody has a huge subconscious part he/she is not aware of.
Don’t mix up all those things, and especially not affects with emotions.
Mirror neurons don’t fire, they either open or close, and function like mirrors reflecting the universe back to us. The more mirror neurons an empath has, the more he/she sees and understands.
You’re absolutely right, HG, about not understanding your kind. I am ashamed that even though I sensed the inner world of my exnarc, everything else was stronger. I saw what he did for and with me, but didn’t see beyond this.
I appreciate your honesty ava101.
You’re welcome, HG. I was recently thinking about the ironic fact that you kind of get to experience the world (what one perceives as the world) through so many different eyes, so to speak. Because you notive so much more about other people and how they are wired, what their strengths and weaknesses are. One can absolutely trust a narc to point out ones best and worst sides, or weak spots.
While the internet (facebook e. g.) is full of people calling themselves empaths, constantly waving “look, I’m here, and I’m so great and so much better, because I have cast one single look into myself and because I was able to identify what someone else was feeling, because I had that feeling, too, before …” … while not being able to see anyone but themselves, it’s the ego speaking, nothing else. Not every whim is an “emotion”, hell, in that case my exnarc is full of emotions.
Well put ava101 and one would do well to remember that there are a number who masquerade as empaths who are of my kind, but of course do not know it.
Yes, HG, both. You’re right that there a narcissists like that. 😉 Obviously. 🙂
I have left a Facebook group of supposedly highly developed individuals 😉 because it was hijacked by narcissists. I toyed with them a little, but then it got simply on my nerves.
Then there are some who do have deep empathy and had first small realizations about their inner workings. But they think that these small glimpses are “it” and that they are now above others. There is something called “spiritual pride”.
However, if someone was truly looking into their own mirror, and as deeply connected to inner self, as is claimed, and not just chasing own wishes, and illusions of being loved, etc. … they would be hard to fool indeed. Haven’t met many people who are like that.
I was in alot of pain, isolated, scared and hurt. I saw an online FB ‘support/healing group’ and joined up thinking surely this group of deeply concerned citizens, these deeply spiritual people would help me. I didn’t last long with the “no one is a victim, you fight against what you don’t like, we are all mirrors, there is no evil, we are all one, no one is wrong or bad, etc, etc” for me to blow up at how full of sh*t so many all were. The moment any of them said, “I know how “IT” is” , IT being life, god, spirituality, humanity, was when I got sooo turned off and begane to wonder about their narcisissm. And so many of them had it turns out, a life of following gurus and spiritual leaders and anyone who follows another human being and treats them as god always has me wondering what is going on.
Facebook is not even Fakebook anymore. It’s OpinionBook, RantBook, HearMeSpeakBook, PoliticsBook. I can’t stand it anymore and I am on 3 months of deactivated and don’t miss a thing about it. When I glance in now and then, all I see is the same old stuff scrolling by that was there a year ago. Didn’t miss much at all. Nothing to learn from there at all.
When I read that story, I read a child who might have really been a INFJ personality who repeatdly experienced the world in such a way that he lost those attributes. You withdrew to punish them. You denied yourself cookies to control yourself and them. You isolated yourself as the only tool you had to deal with your emotions. You punished yourself. Forget mom anymore doing it, you were doing it to you, too. You were co-opted into your own emotional abuse by your mother. You had emotions. Feelings you wanted those cookies which is why you snuck back later on. But you had no road map to them so you leaned to deny yourself. The more you did, the more you broke your brain’s ability to experience and express them. You wanted. You needed those cookies but you would never, ever let anyone see it. To let them see you would mean to put yourself on the same human playing field as them. You needed to be special because you probably were not because of your later fully develeoped narcissistic personality. And that would be a fragile place for you to be. Cause in the end, you snuck back out to eat the cookies, telling youself how smart you were to be able to sneak them and grandmother would never know. But that was a disguise, a story to tell yourself, of the fact that you wanted. You wanted those cookies but you would not let the power of wanting something ever be in someone else’s hands to give you or deny you. You controled when and how you were going to eat those cookies. No teasing or cajoling was going to get you to allow yourself to spontaneously eat them and enjoy them. It was purely masochistic in a way, what you did. Funny cause in some ways, I had to do that with my Narc mother. I had to be the same way for some reason. I had to control something, anything, and if it wasn’t going to be her and getting what I needed from her, I would do so by doing something like what you did as that gave me some control…over me and my environment and how I acted in it, even if it meant denying myself what I wanted. You took it to the extreme as you had a much more helicopter demanind narc mother than me. Mine had all those things, but really, she didn’t care much how we did in life so it didn’t turn me into a controling machine to succeed and be/do well at everything. I was that way only when she was around and then I found other ways to stay true to myself where she could not intrude.
I must admit SB that I understand your reasoning behind this concept and your entire post. I am the ENFP personality type and I found it very difficult to make a comment on this article due to my incredibly abusive upbringing and traumatic life. I grew up around controlling, manipulative, physical, emotional, and sexual abuse. I received much of this from siblings, step-siblings, stepfather, and an uncaring and controlling mother that demanded perfection. Feeling things on a deep level didn’t contribute to an unhealthy upbringing.
Religious abuse played a massive part and I was a rebellious and curious child by nature. (Such is the ENFP traits.) This was simply not encouraged in my household. Extremes were doled out to exact compliance or face the wrath of some form of abuse. Abandonment played a large part in my teenage years when I started fighting back. My fighting spirit has always been strong despite it; that’s probably what protected my heart.
Not being allowed to question anything and denied the chance of a voice put my personality on a destructive loop for many decades. An unhealthy ENFP is not a pretty sight. I was utterly lost. Trying to find the love that was denied by fighting for survival in the only way I knew how. Quenching my need for anger has been a difficult process after being denied the love a child should have growing up. Sadly enough, I turned it inward. I often wonder what would have happened if I had gone down a more outwardly destructive path.
It hits home far too much when I read some of these articles HG posts; I feel them.
KDB, I can totally relate to your post as well. Someone on some other thread here is presenting as an authority on Narcisissm and thinks its just a gene, lol Maybe. Maybe not. But I have read alot of literature on trauma and what it can do to the brain, including flipping genes most likely, and how it can shut down some wiring (empathy) and activate other wiring (narcisism) that the story to what makes us who we are can be very, very complicated. Two people can experience the same things and respond quite differently and so much is intelligence, biology, perspective and more. My life was also a life lived with untreated C-PTSD due to lots and lots of trauma. The impact of my own controlling mother is only now being understood by me. There is a part of me that really could relate to this story as I also learned to deny myself things and feelings as a way to cope. Sometimes, it was just my own trauma repetition from things that had happened to me and not to do with my FOO, other times, it was the only way I could preserve who I was within my FOO. Its very complicated. I have a very complicated story. And I also attribute my survival to a really tough fighting spirit that became a part of my life when I was 3. I had my own brand of narcisissm that I had to unlearn at some point but it was mostly traits, not through and through narcisissm. It was imitated from my mother and my own survival. My father’s nickname for me at 13 was True Grit if that gives you any sense of how tough my soul and spirit was. My challenge in life now is to learn to stop fighting, to soften not just to experience the volume of feelings I have always had but to accept them. I test INJF all the time on personality tests and we do have a dark side that is part of what fed my Super Nova empath mode I got in to. But now, its to realize I am no longer under pure suvival mode that I was in for so much of my early life.
Absolutely. Being in a state of flight or fight for an extended period of time is quite damaging to the mind and emotions on more than one level.
Ah, I think I saw his interesting posts.
I have had many INFJ type friends and have seen their dark side come out to play more than once. I love it. I have also had a fair share of unhealthy ones so it’s nice to see one who fought back. On occasion I would have to kick them into reality mode, so I understand the instinctual empathy of NF types and going overboard into copius amounts of self sacrifice. This was something I was guilty of even during abuse. It’s inherently in our capacity to do so based on idealism.
True Grit eh? Keep that spirit alive.
I remember, not knowing why I felt it, but I told the narc he made me feel like I was in a fight or flight reaction. This was before I really started fighting with him and things got really out of hand. I wish I had understood more at the time why I would be having such a strong reaction to him. I think I finally understand my dark side. I understand a whole lot more about my own personality, the ups and downs, the need to deeply retreat, my creativity, my intense sense of right and wrong (idealism), often unforgiving nature yet ironically, too forgiving. How is that for a paradox? I had an eye opening experience this last weekend. I was thinking of all these words people had used to describe me in the past 4 years (baring my sould to too many trying to survive the IDD cycle and betrayal the narc had put me through left me wide open to lots of people to share their ‘opinions’ of me) and as I thought of the adjectives used, it struck me… they are all somewhat correct even the ones used that are so completely opposite to other adjectives. They are all correct because they all fit in a INFJ personality and in that context, I do make sense. Yeah, rare personality type supposedly and I realized, all these people who pegged me on one of my characteristics had only done so on one aspect of me for whatever reason. My friend said I am very complex, complicated, way too much so for the narc. I said, actually, I am very simple! hahaha. Be honest, true to yourself, treat me well, all goes well. Do the opposite and its chaos sort of and betray me multiple times, watch out. I can it seems, dive deep into revenge. Betray me mulitiple times and expect me to keep turning the other cheek, I soon lose patience and it’s supernova mode. And, it seems, though it was also his projection, I can become quite consumed with my own ego but truthfully, its my own constant dreaming and abstract mind that is always running. So sort of very self-absorbed I guess and can sound like ego when I express it? And yes, I am quite sure my nar mother and certain other life experiences did lead to way too much self-sacrifice as a way to survive. I am really focusing on suppressing some of my traits and enhancing others and the self-sacrifice one I am really learning to ‘stop. I am working on realizing now maybe I have a choice in this strange mix of traits that make up my personality.
SB,
Sorry for late reply, been busy painting and sleeping. (I think you understand the need for creativity.) It sounds to me like you gained the clarity you needed from said situation. I’m glad. It’s an extreme, but an extreme I’ve noticed some have to go through to develop the weaker points of their personality.
Even now I can tell you were a very caring individual that put up with a lot. This can be a strength at times but also a weakness. I understand the idealism getting you in trouble. Most of my basis for what I consider right and wrong is founded on a moral compass that has been formed from my experiences. This could be various feelings on different things and the flippant nature of curiosity will drive me to explore new ideas and concepts everyday. One might consider that complexity and I’ve often been accused of living in a paradoxical fashion. (Woo for paradox.) It’s boring to be faced with the same drab when you could be exploring something exciting or contradictory in nature.
As for the betrayal and being abused to a point: yes, I can relate all too well. I can be very patient with people from the beginning and most mistake my upbeat/caring nature to be an easy target for manipulation and underestimate my capabilities. Unsure if you would call that the “supernova” when it presents itself, but the protector eventually appears. Often in a way that exudes pointing out the flaws of the individual that pushed me to the brink. In the past, it was to protect myself from those who violated me. (Sadly, it has ended friendships and even incited violence in my direction because of the unexpected rational delivery.)
INFJ’s are deeply beautiful individuals with the great capacity to love and also be rational/intelligent. Your type (if you are a firm explorer of MBTI and Jung) seems to exist on a cusp of both worlds, making it easy but hard. Rational yet deeply feeling. Hence why I am enjoying this conversation so much. I suspect we could chatter for hours.
I can very much relate to your post. Especially the curiosity. I often keep my responses to myself but do just pull away from people and do end relationships. Sometimes, it seemed so right but now I can see why it seems that way as I seem to understand the personality type more. But I tell you, that narc had me blasting his flaws in retaliation. I shreded him. Of course, I tolerated what he had done to me but by the time my delayed reactions set in, I had way too much to call him on. I took no prisoners. Of course, I was the one whose words cut. Yeah, right. I also think people think my nature will mean I am a doormat or pushover and they do get surprised. Its not intentional but again, I think its the paradoxical nature of the traits. I called it My Dragon. You rouse my dragon and lookout. Only no one has roused it so much as he did. As someone posted somewhere here, there was something of a relief in that he tolerated alot of it. He seemed so unafraid of it but then, I think I didn’t get the fuel part of it. Yes, I think that is accurate. I am deeply feeling and rational. I can be very logical and extremely abstract. I think in images and pictures and visions sometimes. Not in words. And that was my downfall with the narc as I kept shuffling all my visual thinking around and around trying to get the pieces to fit. Over and over. Again, another trait of the personality. I have never made more sense to myself until I started reading about the type. Both Narc mother and he said they think I am bipolar. LOL. No, not at all. But I can go from deep feeling to high in my head and that is what confused people. For them, I was filling in the blanks of feelings where they had none, then switching to a more detached and indifferent and colder space to match them. Add in their ridiculous behaviors and expectations and my profound frustration, I didn’t look so good to them. But it makes total sense to me now. As my father said, my mother rejected me as she didn’t want to engage with me on the feeling level (coudn’t) but to relate on that superficial level is like soul death to me. So while I can do it for a while, I cannot sustain relationships that stay flat and are never connected. Hard but easy. And the “psychic” part of me is very real, so its not easy to hide from me which is why I can be very triggering for narcs I think?
SB,
The introverted nature of the INFJ’s I’ve known can lead them to quite a solitary existence if they are stuck in a loop of never ending sacrifice. It makes it difficult to get them to come out of their shells if it’s gone on for an extended period of time. I can understand the need to withdrawal your feelings from people if the interaction is superficial. This is definitely something I have a hard time with but I can bear it if I must. I can usually make them laugh, so that helps.
One close friend of mine that is an INFJ is an excellent artist due to the visual head space she occupies. What you are describing sounds quite similar to what she has described. My creative space is more along the lines of a very large tree that has extended branches that go for miles in thousands of directions. Each time a new piece of information or idea is absorbed, I add another branch. Possibly cutting off an old one and reshaping it to form a new one. My art can reflect my spontaneity at times but feelings are generally at the core of my traditional paintings.
But, for my friend, she has a tendency to over perfect her visions. Luckily, she is very skilled at what she does and her pieces come out quite elegant.
It is true that my ex-narc took a lot of the brunt of my scarred upbringing and brought it into the open as a way to exploit my darker side to come through to fuel him. He craved that part of my emotions almost everyday. I never understood the reasoning behind it; of course I have more understanding now after so many years to contemplate and learn, but I knew on an innate level there was a trip/hit for him. Ah, after the golden period I truly got to see what was underneath. Oddly enough, it was refreshing to see it because my intuition is off the charts and I could smell it, even if it went all downhill from there.
I like the sound of The Dragon. Makes me want to paint.
I grew up in a household filled with these kinds of individuals so I feel this deeply. (Also, you aren’t the first INFJ I’ve chatted with that has stated someone called them bipolar.)
KDB,
I always thought everyone’s head works this way (the visual thinking part at least). If in fact, I would test consistently for INFJ and if there is any merit to the test and the classifications (I did some reading about the test and statistical results), and this is a very rare personality type, then it would make sense why no one has ever understood me. And the combination of rarity and the message that something is wrong with me, was completely wrong. When people have told me that I am not like other people, I am different, I think differently, it took on a whole new meaning to me and I am not so defective as they portrayed me. More like, I am rare.
I do relate to what you described about the extended branches of a tree and cutting off one branch and reshaping another. I relate to it in terms of how I experience myself and what I had to do respond to my environment as a child. My external environment was constantly changing due to all our moving so I was constantly working out how to incorporate new cultural/sociological expectations into my life. Never mind the chaos of our home life. I would lop off one part to make room for another perspective. I think maybe it’s the extraverted part of the INFJ that led to this, too or it was that upbringing that created the extraverted part. Focusing outward. And it’s what made me very ‘obsessed’ with the narc. A trait that was already there by my nature but just blew up on me. It also explains why the times in my life when I was able to really delve into a lot of my creativity, that I would feel very anxious suddenly, like I was afraid to be with myself because I enjoyed the space so much. The constant external vigilance I had grown used to would pop me out of the internal focused space and I would be back to looking outwards. It was exactly what happened with the narc and he would tell me to take a break from him, stop obsessing. But it was a terrible combination of the fact that he made me obsess and it was in my nature. He played the obsession, the hurt, the games and once my focus became him, it was really hard to be at peace with myself and stay internally directed.
I originally didn’t think he was deliberately doing what he did but have had to come to accept that it was all quite deliberate. I had a friend tell me that she thinks that he liked fighting with me, he liked the energy, he liked the intensity of it with me. He was as you well put it, exploiting my darker side. And she also believes he really loves me and that’s how he relates to the world. Dangerous misunderstandings of the narcissism I think because it overlooks the fact that it can’t change. One sounds like someone with issues loving, caring, communicating and they might change, but the other reality is that within the narcissism, it is all intentional, won’t change, it is exactly what it is and will always be that way. And its quite dangerous. My intuition was right that something was off with him as my emotional fight/flight response got triggered very early on. I even started to have dreams of snakes. Haha. Oddly, no one has ever called me bipolar before him and I have been in therapy but never ever been diagnosed at all with that. And then, my narc mother threw that word at me as it was convenient for her, per many of HG’s posts on that kind of name calling, but given their narcissism, given what they do, it would make anyone a bit crazy but to be an INFJ and to have the paradox of being both extremely rational and creative/abstract at the same time and to go through the narc wringer, it doesn’t look so good. I have identified about 4 or 5 ‘styles of painting or drawing in my art and in my hand writing. I used to wonder about it and thought it was the whole multiple personality nonsense but as I see it now, it’s entirely related to the personality type and exacerbated by a history of trauma. If I am in the abstract headspace, my writing is fun, creative, me having fun with lines and shapes. If I am in the other logical rational head space, it’s more controlled deliberate. My art shows the same and it only now makes sense as related to my personality. And it only now seems to finally make sense. Every other explanation I found, never did.
Honestly, I must be missing something. Well, first off-I would be expected to do all the cleaning……but be manipulated? I thought before I finished the story: Refuse and then just go back later and take what you want.
My brother didnt quite think it through though. He was very young and was obsessed with food (which I now see was his reaction to stress). We awoke one morning to have my mother go into the fridge and find the middles of her 2 lemon meringue pies eaten. Only the crust remained with remnants of lemon smeared about. She turned and asked what happened to the pies. We all turned to look at my brother who still had pie on his face and all over his pyjamas and who replied: what pies?
Much later in life he offered that he thought as long as he didnt disturb the crust that he would be able to pull it off.
Poor little amateur.
“What pies..?” Haha!
It’s the story of most normal children of narcissistic parents, they can’t stop indulging themselves in everything: be it food, shopping, splurging on things, using addictives: drugs, coffee, nicotine, painkillers, etc. etc.
It’s not only a reaction to stress, but more a repeat attempt at filling the emotional void the narcissist parent creates.
I saw this my entire life with my mom, and her brother. It was coffee after coffee, cigarette after cigarette, all day, every day. Their mother was a narcissist, and my grandmother.
Kids that grew up without love from parent/parents will seek to fill the void their entire life, and nothing seems to work. They have problems giving love, even though they are normal emotionally.
E. D
Re: addictions
Very true. My brother is a Chef (and dangerously large) so despite the pie incident being funny, never broke the addiction with being involved with food. He does however seem by all accounts to have made his 2 young boys the focus of his life. He seems to be able to give love but not to himself. When I look at those around me it seems they continue abusing themselves with an addiction of their choosing as youve pointed out, after the initial abuse ends. But now saying that, does it call into question the iceberg analogy? If there is this unseen strength, why are so many people addicted and abusing themselves? That does not demonstrate strength unless you mean only to stop from hurting others. Have you any thoughts on why that is if you care to respond?
Good question. I don’t really know how to answer that, because I had normal, the best actually parents one could hope for. One thing I’m sure is they are strong down below, they just don’t know about it, because up on the surface they’ve been damaged enough not to be able to reach their depth and self repair.
It should change when they find a healthy supportive partner to help them heal.
Once my mom understood what happened to her, the abuse from her mother, she suddenly burst in such a beautiful person. We discussed this at length, also regarding my Narc sister, and she started to live at long last.
Interesting. So your Grandmother and sister were Narc but not your Mom and yourself. What about your Dad? Im asking because there has been discussion on genetic and environmental impact. It seems to have skipped a generation in your family. Was your sister close with your Grandmother? In any case, its nice things are better for your Mom now and therefore you.
Yes, correct. Neither of my parents were narcissist, both big empaths. From my exploration of the matter, I am certain that it is purely genetic. It is the matter of pure luck if you inherit the gene or not. I could have inherited it instead of my sister, but again from data on genetics, first newborns tend to pick the best of ancestral genetic material, with exceptions.
But you see my mom carried the gene to pass it onto my sister but not me, so she had the gene in her genome from her mother, but it wasn’t activated. I may also carry the gene and it may manifest in a different way or be completely silent.
E. D
Do you have children? Or any concern of passing on this gene given your belief?
Ask me out on a date, then I’ll answer this question.
E. D
Haha
1. Asking is not my thing.
2. Can you confirm that E.D is just short for your name and not a medical condition you suffer?
(Just messin as were you).
Lol, first you ask me if I have children, now you want to know if I suffer from any medical conditions? mmm
That after you probably went thru all my comments on YT, others comments to me, finding SNakes who have all the info on me, then thru all my tweets.. and whether I commented on the FB page, and which profile is mine…. etc etc.
Tsk.. hmm the voice of god will now move onto subliminal messages via titles, and creating omnipresence, making appearances.. etc.
however scintillating this is, I know already too much that it’s synthetic and deep down you wish to murder me..
E.D
Okay now it’s a no because youre wearing your crazy on the outside lol. I dont care that you are, but I like it better when you keep that shit tucked in.
Yes I know, keep it nice, otherwise you will have to give me silent treatment. Actually now you have no reason but start the devalue right away.
Btw, every single narc so far used the word crazy when it was obvious there was no fuel to be gained from me.
Especially not in the supernova mode I’m still in.
E.D
I never heard crazy but I did hear plenty of : you scare the hell out of me.
It’s not polite to ask personal questions on a public forum, using an anonymous account. You insinuate I’m a ripe for picking oblivious empath or someone in such an awe of you that I will submit to you.
You try to provoke commenters here, like Vashti, and then watch the fallout sipping the fuel from the situation you created. It’s sickening to me how many so called empaths will go and defend you by shaming the empath who dares to call you out on it.
I have very low regard for these people, but I also understand their levels of mirror neurons are very low.
E.D
If its not polite to ask personal questions why did you ask me to ask you for a date?
Anyhoo….. i can see where this is going so: take your meds and have a nice day
(You know you already answered this post right?)
i did not ask you out, i tried to tell you your question was inappropriate as far as time and space
i forgot that normal sane conversation is impossible with your kind, there are no mess for you to take, now get lost
E. D
Im already back to the future.
NarcAngel: respect.
E.D.
“You try to provoke commenters here, like Vashti, and then watch the fallout sipping the fuel from the situation you created”
Did you mean I’m provoking pr n.a. tried to provoke me..?
I dont subscribe to all post notifications which is why I’m responding rather late.
I do agree that the so called empaths are attacking others who call the narcs out. I’ve said this before…
Actually the “so called empaths” are clearly empathic people and their posts show as such along with the patience they have exhibited to your repeated and unnecessary goading. Even they have clearly become bored of your stuck record routine.
I have a good friend. When she was a little child she took her brother (a baby) and put him into the toilette. Then she pushed the button. Is she a psychopath today? No, she is not. Is she a cruel woman today? No, she is not. She is a lovely woman, although she was “bad” when she was a child. She only was jealous and her parents taught her in a good way to cope with that feeling. She and her brother love each other nowadays and they often talk about that story. It was dangerous, it was bad. Thank God, nothing happened. So, don`t tell me, that you have been a bad boy from early childhood because you stole some cookies.
You have completely missed the point.
Yes, intentionally.
Thanks for sharing HG! How old were you??
Ten.
HG was nothe sure where to ask this. I am trying to understand something. The narc that approached me obviously thought I was good fuel in some way. Are narcs bothered about what there victim looks like? Are they bothered about the choice of person despite good fuel. As a non narc I would have to be attracted to the person in looks first then from there it would or would not develop. Does this make sense? Hope you can help.
I think they are only bothered if it suits them. My narc used something of my looks as it suited him to hurt me. Put me down for something but then turned around and chased an over weight and uneducated 17 year old. I think many will overlook things if the fuel is right but then blast features as need be for fuel.
Oh HG,
I had no idea. This is heavy. I can’t stop crying. I understand more than ever why you are who you are. Fuck them all. They really fucked with the wrong guy. You’re like a super hero HG. I don’t even see you as the villain. You just might save the world.
I’m glad you found inner strength and determination from something that could have destroyed you. I just wish they didn’t take your heart. I’m so glad you have the Shieldmaiden to show you how true love should feel.
You’re a brave soul.
So I take it your siblings are not of your kind?
Correct.
Thank you HG. Why do you think this has happened?
I think the shielding they received from our father played some part in it.
Oh my HG that’s horrid. Why did dad not shield you? Did you ever ask him before he died?
With regard to this specific abuse he was too frightened to do anything.
We have never spoken about it.
HG why was he frightened? You are his child. I know I have told a man to get out of my life for emotionally abusing my child and he got worse. That is my child, was his also but there is no way I would allow this to happen despite caring for the man. Was your dad also abused? I am just trying to understand the logistics as my profession requires me to know as much as I can about this subject. If you can help me out I appreciate it.
Repercussions from other agents was the reason for his fear. It clearly led him to place his needs above my own, so I have done the same ever since, placing my needs above those of anybody else.
I do not believe he was ever abused no.
I am still establishing what he knew and when so the picture is still being cleared.
Repercussions: what hold did the family have on your dad? Do you speak to these people now? Can I ask why you went to the good doctors?
You will see in due course.
Intermittently.
A combination of family pressure and the achievement of my aims.
Family pressure. HG if they were the cause of this why would you listen to them? I don’t understand. You say we will know on due course. Are you going to show the real you eventually? You seem to be very educationally bright and I presume hold a high position in your field. I understand that you say you know what you do and why you behave in this way which I suppose can be good in one way and difficult in another. I hope things work out for you but you did say you were sceptical. I find it hard to comprehend that someone or some people have killed themselves over you and you don’t show any concern. If that person had a family as in children that is awful. I look at my cats and watch them and I think yes that’s the way narcs behave. It’s like you have not evolved as a human should. I understand you have been through a lot of bad things but you did not like it and now inflict it on other unsuspecting caring people. It is all such a mess 🙁
But your dad was a shield for your siblings? Why not you? Was this abuse known about but not talked about: a secret within the family? Were you one of your kind before these incidents began? I hope that woman is in jail now.
For the abuse generally he took the view that I could fend for myself. I was not one of my kind before these incidents began.
They will all come tumbling down. All of them.
This has made me cry.
I’m so sorry that the people around you were and are this way. And to think that family was to be regarded a great thing, and to hold up a facade.
I respect you for this deeply. Thank you for sharing. Never underestimate the impact you have.
Thank you.
Wouldn’t it be the greatest revenge, though, HG, if your mother’s influence on you, incl. the down-sides of your personality (sorry), would be obliterated?
I can see that perspective, but there is a greater revenge to be had than that.
“It clearly led him to place his needs above my own, so I have done the same ever since, placing my needs above those of anybody else”.
Your father didn’t care about you. His number one need should have been his child’s well being. And though he was the “gentler” of your parents, maybe he too is a narcissist and that was HIS facade. He is the man of the house hold. What so called “pressure” and “fear”.
I pray God does what’s best for you for you HG. Glad you’re not standing back and allowing them to get away with it.
Were you The Lost Child (unseen, invisible, isolated) in your family of origin, HG? Your father was not a narcissist but he was emotionally absent when you needed him, is this correct?
Did you have an emotionally healthy relative who cared for you or someone to turn to when you were distressed? Psychologist Alice Miller called this individual “an Enlightened Witness”:
https://www.alice-miller.com/en/the-essential-role-of-an-enlightened-witness-in-society/
I believe I did not become a narcissist because I had an emotionally available grandfather. I saw him every day.
Thank you EB, an interesting perspective. Your assertion in the first paragraph is correct.
No I did not. I had to turn to myself and an alternative way to protect myself.
Controlling narcissistic mothers usually interfere with the relationship between children and their father, HG. Children do not know what is happening behind the scenes. If a mother has a Cluster B disorder, the father has no chance of building a healthy bond with his children.
Someone who is not protected by their parents and is either ignored or scapegoated while seeing that other siblings are treated differently may think there is something inherently wrong with him/her. I think that working with feelings of shame in adulthood is not easy but it is the only way to overcome them.
HG: that makes sense, I guess. 🙁
EB: I also had only my grandfather, and he is the only one I still cry for. I didn’t see him that often, though. He cuddled with me, and told me stories, and bought me chocolate, went on walks with me, … he paid everything educational for me, sent me money and chocolate when I was away at school in the US for one year, and later he was the one who supported me. I will never forgive my mother for not calling me when he got very ill and was dying, I did not get to say good-bye, and she then gave away the one thing I had wanted to keep from him, which was the story book, he had the stories from. The money he intended for us to inherit was taken by my parents, they made him change his will shortly before he died.
In regard to my ex-narc: his grandfather didn’t help much, though he seems to have tried. But I can’t know really, of course. 🙁
HI ava101,
I have read stories similar to yours. Narcissistic mothers who will not let their adult sons/daughters see a close family member who is dying. So cruel.
It has to be someone who is “emotionally available”. Your grandfather was close to you and he cared for you. My husband had a loving aunt who would take him in his stroller for a walk during her lunch break at work. His siblings did not have anybody and became narcissists like their mother.
It has nothing to do with presents or material things. Some people are healthy but they may not be emotionally available. If a mother is going through a difficult divorce or if she has a depression, a chronic illness or some kind of serious condition, she will take care of her children but she will be too weak or drained to be “emotionally available” for them.
Thank you E.B.!
Hi SVR,
I read your thread with HG and that you are very interested in the dynamics of how this abuse could be covered up in the family if they are aware it happened to their child, in respect to your profession.
I can only speak for the experience I witnessed with my ex-husband’s family.
He was sexually abused from the ages of 4-8 by his aunt (mother’s younger sister when she was 12-16). He was so young and at the time thought everyone grew up with a relative that you “did those things with”. I was the first person he told right before we got engaged. I was 19, he was 20. Shortly after we were married, another family crisis, unrelated, brought to light this abuse to his mother and one of his brothers. (My ex was the oldest of 3 other siblings). Her reaction was to make it go away. She insisted the other family members were not to know about it. She did not want her parents (the grandparents) to ever find out and experience such grief over an event that happened so many years ago when she viewed her sister was still a child too. Her sister was now married with 3 babies of her own.
I was not allowed to have any voice in the matter. Only that of support person to my husband, which led to 10 years of him then spiraling down a rabbit hole with anxiety attacks, depression, overeating and weight issues, etc. I was treated as an outsider. That this was their family, their dynamic, their choice. Being 22 and just out of my own house, I felt outnumbered. But it felt horribly wrong inside. These relatives were out of state and I just focused on helping him.
My ex-husband dealt with a betrayal by his own mother that I believe he felt was worse than what his aunt had done.
The odd thing is in their scenario, there was the full on sexual acts taking place when they did, but he was not in physical pain. I believe it led to him having a promiscuous side before we started dating and an insatiable appetite for sex. So the betrayal by his mom to protect her sister and not confront her was worse than the abuse by his aunt.
For whatever reason also, my ex was the target of his dad and endured some physical abuse by the father but the other siblings did not. He also had the shameful, scapegoat factor.
What dynamic does this create? One of living to upmost perfection all the time. When you feel you are hiding a dirty secret and you have a target on you, you try to control everything around you to an ideal of perfection.
To this day, his aunt lives a great life with her husband of many years. Her three children all went on to college and successful careers. They are all heavily involved in church (Southern Baptists) and she enjoys her grandchildren. My ex-husband says he forgives his aunt and his mom and has moved on as best as he could. It will never go beyond that. Oh, and the big family celebrations still happen for all of the holidays.
I feel for HG. That was / is a very tricky road to navigate having, in his case, an abusive mother who chose her equally abusive, narc brother and his wife over her own son. What people put blinders on to is beyond shameful.
Very interesting post, Clarece. I agree that the betrayal by a family member to protect the abuser may be worse than the abuse itself.
I don’t think it gets worse than a Mother’s betrayal. A child cannot process / cope with that kind of rejection.
I appreciate your time taken to write this. Thank you. It is so very sad. The world can be so cruel and my trust in adults has been squashed since my interaction of recent with narcs. You just want to cuddle these people close and love them but it’s very difficult as you have to let go for your own sanity. Again thank you.
Thank you! It feels very strange to outwardly share. I feel like I’m somehow still sworn to secrecy because it was “their” family, “their experience” and I was just around as a silent spectator. I would be viewed as the betrayer to be vocal now. It’s like at what point, does your reality get to officially become mine because that is exactly what it did while I nursed my ex back to emotional health for a decade after the fallout? And that feeling of a burden has to be microscopic to the weight of the burden for the actual victim living with it and wondering why them?
MLA
I wonder if he really could forgive his Mother and Aunt. Sometimes you have to say these things even to yourself because it is hard to disengage from family completely. You continue to be part of that facade (dinners etc) because its too hard to explain to people outside of the family why you are estranged (and if you dont-they make up their own reasons and start rumors). Some family members even who know will side with pretending things never happened and so then you are left with no one. I continued to face him intermittently for years because otherwise I would have lost my younger siblings who were more my children than theirs. Its hard to believe when people say they’ve forgiven but I always hope its true for them. I think what they mean is they accepted it happened and that it is to stay buried deep inside themselves. I agree with your statement that its harder to forgive the person who knows and does nothing (sexually or otherwise) I still see the ultimate betrayal as my Mother not removing us. I am sure your ex was grateful that at least he could let it out with you, but then unfortunately it became your burden too as you were not allowed to act on it or betray his confidence. I dont know your relationship now but I will hazard a guess that in quiet moments he both thanks you for listening, and apologizes for burdening you.
Hi NA,
I appreciate you’re very thoughtful statements. Yes, my ex has never wavered on telling me I was his “angel” and I saved him back then. Even thru the divorce.
He had been able to really confront his aunt and his mom in his late 20’s about what had happened. I think because he felt his voice was heard, he came to peace with it.
However for me, upon having my daughter and feeling rather empowered by motherhood at 34, my anger, rage and incomprehension at a mother not choosing her child over an abuser came to ahead but I had no where to channel it.
Happened to me. Mother and aunt still deny their father’s abuse of me. They can go rot.
I cannot fathom that response as a mother. I am so sorry!
You shared it and it helps us understand a bit more. Thank you for your contribution to my understanding.
What profession are you in SVR?
All I am prepared to say is health.
NarcAngel, I was talking yesterday with my friend about how I hate my exnarc and how I would love to have revenge, and she was like, that he had suffered abuse himself, that he couldn’t be any other way, so I was like ‘so I would have to take revenge on his mother?’ and my freind then (she is a very wise woman), well his mother certainly had also just continued what she had known as a child. And so on …. she said in the end it would come down to the whole family line.
Point being: she is just repeating patterns, burdening someone else with her own pain etc. That’s no excuse, of course, but a point where one can begin to develop sympathy even for a abusive person because she didn’t know any different, and then one might have a chance to start to let go.
…
The priest at my father’s funeral looked very strangely at my completely emotionless expression, but as if he knew what must be behind that whole disgusting family facade.
AVA101
You raise a good point and Im going to tread lightly here but I have wanted to ask this for a very long time of the Empaths here:
Why do the many who have empathy for how HG was treated by Matrinarc not have any for her?
PLEASE HEAR ME WHEN I SAY: NOT THAT THEY SHOULD!!
I do not know his Mothers history and know that will come in time with the books, but HG has explained that she does not even know what she is. So if she had issues in her upbringing and is not even aware of what she is, how is she not to garner the sympathy that is afforded HG? (Much as your friend has reasoned).
Is the reasoning that her treatment of him is incomprehensible as a Mother over another figure? But how would she know any other way if she is unaware of what she even is or that there is anything wrong? Did she not suffer to become that way also? Maybe even moreso because she may have wanted to show love and affection but was unable to and therefore feels failure privately as a Mother (but would never admit or show it). Every time I read someones comment about his Mother I wonder how she got to be that way and why there is no pity for her. HG knows what he is and what he does and yet people still find a way to find what is good in him. Is that because he has formed a relationship (albeit virtual) with the readers here and they feel invested in him because he is offering them something (assistance) and his Mother is deemed to be a remote anonymous figure with no redemptive qualities?
Is that the difference?
Please enlighten me if you can anyone.
Having said all that, I know HG that you are intelligent enough to know that this is an earnest question and that I do not question or condone her treatment of you. The question is to the Empaths regarding their reasoning and I mean no disrespect to you.
I recognise the intent of the question, I have no objection.
You know who loves you baby!
Calm down everyone-its just playful banter after a tough subject.
Kojak?
Winner winner chicken dinner! Ok by love I mean I would totally supply you fuel by crying my eyes out-you know, if I could.
Actually, what confuses me most, and I agree is the most unforgiveable, is matrinarc’s behaviour in regard to the aunt, and she is not even her sister. One must be really badly srewed up to tolerate this and cover that up.
Your father’s role, HG, is most unfortunate, but noone knows better than yourself how people living together with narcs become. Not knowing left from right anymore. Too weak to fight the dragon? Maybe.
Are you aware of the full extend of his abuse? And was he primed himself to become a good narc victim?
No I do not know the full extent.
NA, about your post on compassion and pity for the mother lacking. Yeah, dealing with this a bit in therapy. Language becomes inadequate sometimes. It can become easy to project on to HG. So there is allowance and even some tolerance. Maybe, its what came up in anothet post… he is protecting us in some way so there is nore room for compassion. If you found this blog while in the utter pit of narc abuse hell, this would be an impossible read. I think its information that is only accessible if you have reached a certain level of healing more or less and there is a level of gratitude that one can ferl. That makes room for the compassion. Its harder to have for the mother because we wonder, at least I do, what parenting led to ‘our own narc’ becoming such an abuser and if it hadn’t happened, maybe the person we loved would not have turned out to be so horrid underneath. I am in a confused nowhere land somewhere because I am only just grasping what happened to my life. I don’t want or need any more compassion for my own mother. She played that card out and I can’t afford it anymore. She took way too much of my life. I can only move to indifference. Not sure if this answers
Narc angel
As to empathy for HG’s mother: I imagine there are quite of few of us out there who can feel empathy for HG’s mother, we just stay quiet. Those of us who had narc mothers and have seen other narc mothers in the family have seen occasions where even when a mother is abusive and doing something that will scar their child for life, they are still doing what they really believe is best for the child. It wasn’t until I had children of my own and often found myself in situations where I was clueless as to what I should do, that I realized my mother had also often been clueless and frustrated. Now knowing so much more about narcissism, I imagine that when she was clueless and frustrated trying to parent that she probably felt this as a wounding criticism of herself. When she lashed out with sarcasm and ridicule, it may have been like when HG describes how narcs have to get fuel to heal the wounds of perceived criticism. She truly didn’t know how to parent. She had had a rough childhood, she had no empathy and therefore no understanding of why I didn’t act like she expected. The way HG describes how his mother pushed him to excel, I think she probably may have been doing what she thought was best for him. Clearly it was not, but she had her own construct to maintain and her own creature to keep hidden. She may very well never have understood how destructive her behavior was for her children or felt she really had no choice. I have empathy for all of them, HG, his sister, his brothers, his father and his mother. In a way they were all trapped with no guidebook.
NarcAngel:
Why empathy for HG and not MatriNarc?
– Because abusing a child (even as a baby) is the most horrible thing ever. Grown up narc victims at least have a chance to walk away. But a child feeling helpless and all alone, at the same time 100 % dependent on the abuser, has no choice.
– Because yes, this is HG’s blog and he interacts with me and helps me understand my history (and now even my father’s …). I sympathize with him on my level, like as a virtual friend. Like I would have done with my exnarc if he would have opened up and had shown me a reason to find understanding for him. I was not in a relationship with my exnarc’s mother. 🙂
– Because HG is opening up and explaining about himself. And we are talking to and about him. His mother can deal with her own issues in her own way. ;D (Why didn’t you make it a condition to have her get her own therapists, HG?) We don’t even know IF she really had a “good” reason. I sympathize with his role as a child, with his perspective.
– Because I cannot even forgive my own &%*** matrinarc, father or grandmother. I have enough to do to understand my own family history.
– My ex-narc has fathered a child now, as far as I know, and even if I might one day forgive him or develop empathy for him (I do for HG, because he is on a path of self-realization and self-understanding, and because he has never hurt me personally), I will never ever find empathy for him impregnating his new energy source out of purpose, and how he will (in all probability) treat his own child.
– MatriNarc’s tolerance of the aunt’s behaviour adds to this an unforgivable factor.
Would be helpful for HG though, to understand how she became what she is, and the whole family dynamics and systemic implications.
AVA101
The question was triggered by your convo with your friend and her observation that your narcs mother was only repeating what she knew. She seemed to be cognizant of that fact, where I had never witnessed that here about Matrinarc and had wondered why. Wondered if they did but felt it was dishonoring HG in some way by not viewing her in any other light than evil and never having been a possible victim herself.
HG: Does your sister have children?
She does.
NarcAngel,
Re: Why do the many who have empathy for how HG was treated by Matrinarc not have any for her?
It is important not to take a comment or an opinion out of context. It was about Matrinarc knowing about the abuse and not protecting her 10-year-old son. Child sexual abuse is a crime.
Most narcissists are unaware that they have a mental disorder and do not know that this behaviour pattern is called NPD but they know right from wrong. They are aware when they are using gaslighting, intimidation, war of attrition, triangulation, character assassination or a silent treatment. What they do not know is that these tactics have a “name”.
As for parents, there are “good enough parents”. They make mistakes but do not create long-term damage like personality disorders or C-PTSD.
Matrinarc does not seem to be one of them. She knew about the abuse. She was an adult at that time and knew it was wrong. She had a choice. Instead of protecting her 10-year-old child, she chose to protect the abuser. This betrayal has long-lasting and detrimental effects. If a child cannot learn to trust those who are supposed to love him and protect him, he will learn to trust nobody.
E B
Not sure what youre referring to by it being important not to take an opinion or comment out of context. I am simply asking a question that I have wondered about for some time and it came up again in Ava101 post to me about speaking with her friend.
I know all too well about child abuse and the betrayal of adults not to protect children. I am referring to the fact that we do not know what caused his Mother to be the way she was/is. It may well have been caused by the same treatment. I have only ever read about how awful she is (agreed) but never any empathy or concern about how she may have become that way, or any concern that she may have been denied happiness and love resulting in her complete failure as a Mother. I would have thought that other Mothers would have considered it a tragedy that she was unable to experience parental love and what they have with their own. children.
Both she and HG were children.
Both are Narcissists as adults (she not having the awareness that HG does).
Both harm others as adults while knowing that it is wrong but continue.
HG does not have children so we are spared the prospect that this can be repeated.
There appears to only be empathy and concern that HG suffered, can be healed, fixed, and find happiness while none is evident for his Mother.
I just wondered why this limit to Empathy. It seems a little Narcissistic that it is only afforded to those deemed worthy by some unwritten Empathic law.
NarcAngel
“…I am referring to the fact that we do not know what caused his Mother to be the way she was/is. ”
I understand what you mean. The answer is in her childhood but we do not have any information about it. Other people’s comments including mine were about her behaviour as an *adult* towards her 10-year-old son. Adults are responsible for their own actions and choices. I do not feel any empathy for *adult* Matrinarc.
We do not know anything about Matrinarc’s childhood, NarcAngel. This is HG’s blog and it is about him and he has shared about his own childhood, not his mother’s.
How are we supposed to feel empathy for what happened to her as a child to become what she is today if we do not know anything about it?
I am sure all mothers who are reading and writing on this blog are empathetic, strong and caring parents to their children.
Re: Matrinarc and my question to Empaths regarding her.
Deep sigh. I was not referring to any conversation here about ‘her behaviour as an adult toward her 10 yr old son”. In Ava101s post to me you will see that her friend noted to her that Avas Narcs Mother was only repeating what she knew and it reminded me that I had also thought that previously in general about his Mothers behaviour (not the looking the other way of the sexual abuse) and it triggered my question. So yes, it is important not to take a comment or question out of context. You would have to be a box of rocks not to see that her behaviour is wrong and I am not, so I do not need it explained to me why it is wrong. I was abused myself. The question I had was as adults they both engage in what I believe we all agree is deplorable behaviour, but the general feeling here is that HG should find happiness, purpose, someone to love, etc and with her its: off with her head! I wondered if the difference was how people determined the Narcissist came to be that way. Ex: HG suffered sexual abuse so he is worthy of redemption as an adult vs straight to Hell with any Narc (exhibiting the same behaviours as HG as an adult) that we have not been given an explanation for. Generally I hear: they are arseholes and can rot.
This may be an example of how Empaths sometimes cloud what is an event that requests logic, with emotion. The answers so far have gone straight to the handling of the sexual component which I did not consider to be the only reason for HGs behaviour as an adult.
I was not suggesting anyone SHOULD have empathy for Matrinarc, just rather surprised given all the trying and reasoning Empaths put into their relationships with their partners etc that it never came up with regard to her. Big difference.
I do want to address the last paragraph of EBs post though.
“I am sure all mothers who are reading and writing on this blog are empathic, strong, and caring parents to their children”
I sincerely hope that is the case and I have no reason to believe otherwise, but my own mother could easily be on here giving her story if I cared to share this website with her. She would be saying (and does to others) all of the things that I read from people on here about the difficulties of parenting and being in a relationship with a Narc. And yet she did not remove us or herself from the abuse and we (and our relationships) are all damaged as a result. Tell me: is she still considered to be empathic, strong, and caring? I am quite sure if you asked Matrinarc she would tell you she was all of those things. So its really a matter of whose perspective isnt it?
NarcAngel,
Your example: “HG suffered sexual abuse so he is worthy of redemption as an adult vs straight to Hell with any Narc (exhibiting the same behaviours as HG as an adult) that we have not been given an explanation for.”
I have not read all comments on this blog so I can only speak for myself. I have empathy for what happened to him *as a child*. At least he has not brought children into this world to feed his ego or to damage them.
From what HG wrote about his present treatment with the good doctors, including writing this blog and books, it seems that MatriNarc is still exerting some kind of control over him today (economic/financial? abuse). If so, I have empathy for him in this case. Maybe I am just more sensitive to it because of a similar situation I was in.
However, I do not agree with his *manipulative narcissistic behaviour* as an adult in real life, outside this blog (devaluing his girlfriends, using The Devil’s Toolkit and so on).
Does that answer your question?
As for people reading this blog about *narcissism*, I think that most of them are empathetic people. There are a couple of wolves in sheep’s clothing too. Apaths and people with a NPD rarely seek help.
Hope you don’t tell your mother to come here. 🙂
E.B
Thanks for attempting to help me with my question. I dont know why you wouldnt want my mother to come here. She sounds just like you and everyone else here to hear her tell the story. That was my point.
BTW, this helps me to understand my father a little more, but I have absolutely no clue how my mother got that way. I can’t find any explanation.
NarcAngel, from a logical point of view, that’s right. Two different measures. But that I don’t agree with HG’s abuse and manipulations of his various energy sources is a given. But one of my weaknesses (or strengths) is to see the core and what is behind that. HG’s sharing his self exploration so to speak is most fascinating to me. Also to see things through his eyes. There is certainly some projection on my part involved. I ‘hate’ his mother the same way I hate my personal ex-narc’s mother. In case of my exnarc because I see what could have been otherwise. I care about why my relationship had to be this way, not about the person who caused this. Again, I agree, not purely rational and ‘reality’ accepting behaviour.
Thank you Ava101, Sarabella, Windstorm 2, and EB for your responses to my question. Hope I havent forgotten anyone.
I use to make my youngest sister finish the milk in the bottom of my bowl from my cereal. She knew better than to say no to me. Now we can laugh about it, but it took years for her to forgive my evil ways. I tortured my sisters.
Nice story. I can imagine the evil that permeated the air when you were around. I would have known exactly what you were if I were a child standing next to you. I would be able to smell you. I would not have the name, but I would know it was evil.
I was that child too. But without the intent to hurt others. I took what I thought was mine to have.
Your look? Your evil stare? Yes, I know this look and if I can still give it with my eyes even though my botox prevents the full-on menace stare.
😉
Yes lights would switch off as I walked past them, crops would rot, animals would keel over and die, rivers turned black and so forth.
High dose of self irony you have there HG! Does this happen as well now as an adult?
Sometimes I switch the lights off. Sometimes I make them shine again. Sometimes the river is foul and polluted. Sometimes it is clear and sparkling. That is power.
So the maintenance of this power of controlling is the main reason for you NOT to trust anyone? Not letting anyone come close enough to you to threaten it? What if your ” power” is not threatened by trusting? Have you tried that? Or is your fear so strong to not let that “if” happening?
That is a potential avenue and remains to be seen whether I would be willing to try such an approach in my private life. Of course, to accept that my power is not threatened by trusting means trusting in that concept anyway, thus trust is not something which can be stripped away.
Dear HG,
Thank you for your answer. The fact that you at least consider trusting as a potential path sounds encouraging. I have two questions:
1.What would be the main factors for you deciding to try this path and apply it in your private life?
2.Is it really a matter of ” trusting” or BELIEVING in this concept? Would it be different to BELIEVE that trusting is not threatening your power?
Ha ha, scary! 🙂