The Greater Narcissist
This is a Greater Narcissist. There is much to write about the Greater, but for now, a snapshot shall have to suffice. We have met Lee the Lesser and Malcolm the Mid-Ranger. There are lots of Lees and Malcolms. Lots of them. In fact most people who have ascertained that they have been ensnared by a narcissist will have entangled with either a Lee or a Malcolm. This is Greg, Greg the Greater, a rare beast indeed.
“Hello, what was that?” asks Greg.
“Hello Greg, I was just explaining that you are a rare beast indeed.”
“Oh completely, how good of you to notice and may I say just how delightful you look today, you have done something different with your hair haven’t you, it really suits.”
I cannot help but smile and look pleased at this remark. I know I shouldn’t but this is the problem with the Greater, they are ever so charming and before you know what has happened one has given them some fuel, told them something they wanted to hear or agreed to do what they want.
The Greater exhibits considerable charm. Charm is one of his prevalent weapons. With the Lesser it is raw aggression, with the Mid-Ranger it is the ability to draw sympathy, but with the Greater he uses charm to achieve what he wants.
His charm manifests in many ways. Courteous, polite, amusing, well-read, urbane, complimentary and attentive. But this charm is a combination of considerable intelligence, confidence and planning. Out of all of the three schools of narcissist, the Greater knows the benefit of planning and scheming. He is always gathering information, storing it away, logging it for later or immediate use.
“You are the master at gathering information aren’t you Greg?”
“How very kind of you to say so and I cannot deny that,” he responds with that slow and engaging smile of his. See how he holds my gaze, boring deep inside of me? Of course he is just reflecting back at me what I want to see, after all, he is an expert in the art of seduction. He is an expert in most things, he has to be, the world cannot be afforded any glimpse of weakness, any hint of the loss of his control. He must project an image of success at all times.
Greg knows that the foundation of his success lies in planning and preparation.
“Greg, what is your view about preparation?” I ask.
“Every battle is won before it is ever fought,” he responds in a matter of fact. He is deadly serious. To him, every engagement in his life is a form of battle. Every person he interacts with, every situation he faces, every scenario he is engaged in – all of them are battles and he has to win every one. Even if he appears to lose, he will have allowed that to happen for the sake of a future win.
Greg knows that to forge his rightful and entitle path through life he must secure these victories and win. He does so by ensuring he knows his enemy. Everybody qualifies to be an enemy because the Greater knows that the world is against him and if he gives any quarter, this cruel and heartless world will seek to topple him. He may be a Greater but the wariness and paranoia applicable to all narcissists is just as applicable to him. Greg understands that he has to know who he is dealing with and this means gathering intelligence.
By the way, than unflinching stare has remained focussed on me. The attention from this handsome individual is both unnerving yet oddly engaging. He uses his eyes a lot. Do not think however that when he is staring at you, mirroring your own desires, so you become trapped like a deer in the headlights that this is all he is doing. No, not at all. He is evaluating, considering his next move, what to say next, gauging how I will respond. The Greater’s mind is always whirring, thinking about the next move, ascertaining how to seize the most appropriate advantage. Normal people would find it exhausting but not the Greater for he, among all of the narcissistic brethren has the greater energy levels. This of course means he has the highest demands for fuel but he is also the most effective at gathering this fuel. This effectiveness manifests in two ways. The first is the methodology applied and the second is the range of appliances at his disposal.
The Greater has the widest range of manipulations at his disposal. He is well-practised and able to match, with considerable accuracy, the best forms of manipulation to his victims. Of course he relies on understanding his appliances, knowing what they like and dislike in detail and achieves this through extensive information gathering through his own questions, the use of Lieutenants, conducting background searches and so on. He has had many victims and therefore knows how certain types of person are likely to respond to certain manipulations. Admittedly, he will not get is right every single time, but his error rate is very low indeed. His effectiveness is heightened through how driven he is. He must succeed, be the best, be the sparkling diamond at the centre of the crown. Leader in his field. Champion. Conqueror.
Like a master artisan, he selects only the finest materials (victims) on which to work and then he applies his deft touch through carried manipulations from his Devil’s Toolkit. All of this is done enveloped in charm. He has people do things because they want his praise, his approval, his largesse, his friendship and is love.
The Greater also has extensive fuel networks on which he relies. Unlike the Lesser who has a narrow fuel base or the Mid-Ranger who has a wider one with numerous appliances, the Greater has an extensive and impressive network. Let’s find our more from Greg.
“Hey Greg, who is warming your bed at present?”
“Why are you interested?” he asks as he places a hand gentle on my arm.
“Oh this is professional purposes only, “ I respond trying to rebuff him, but the hand remains unmoved. He is confident and assured.
“I am ever the professional.”
“I am sure that is the case, but tell me, who is on the arm of Greg?”
“I have a girlfriend at present.”
“Just the one?”
“Yes, but there are others, certain ladies who know me well who I can call on if I need to.”
Those are his intimate partner secondary sources, his friends with benefits and booty calls.
“How many?”
“Four,” he replies without hesitation.
“What about your friends?”
“I have six guys I regularly knock around with, plus two good female friends.”
Those are his inner circle.
“Then maybe another twenty or so people I know well through golf, football, the pub, you know, I see them every so often.”
Those are his outer circle. More secondary appliances.
“What about work and family Greg?”
“Well I head up a department at work so I have a team of eight working for me and I am on good terms with the other directors.”
More secondary sources there through colleagues.
I let him continue as he explains how he is well regarded by his family (more secondary sources), his neighbours, people in his community, the people he knows through a charity he is a trustee of (lots of tertiary sources). His network of fuel appliances is vast and he can rely on it regularly to ensure that his considerable fuel needs are catered for. It is rare to find a Greater running short of fuel.
The Greater knows what he is. His higher cognitive function allows him an awareness. He may know that he is a narcissist, since it has been pointed out to him and his increased cognitive function means he can understand and relate to it. Of course, he knows not to admit this to anybody, unless he sees a distinct advantage in doing so. In some instances he may not know that he is a narcissist but he certainly knows that he is different from other people. He knows he is special, talented and destined for continued greatness. He knows that it is necessary for him to control his environment and people, for if he does not do so, he feels weakness gnawing at him, unease and the threat of the loss of his superiority. He knows that he must maintain this edifice that he has built and this is done through having people react to him. He may not know it as fuel, but he knows how important it is for people to respond to him. He knows he must receive admiration and anger, love and loathing, adoration and abhorrence. These power him and allow him to achieve the things he knows he is entitled to. He recognises he does wrong, but does not care. He knows he has no conscience, no sense of guilt, he knows he has a reduced emotional repertoire because from years of observing and listening – as opposed to just doing as the Lesser and Mid-Ranger does – he has learned what he does not feel, not that it concerns him in any way.
Greg knows that charm, manipulation and persuasion are they key attributes to staying number one and having people do as he wants. He wants to own people, make them his, subsume them into him and he understands why this must happen, because it makes him all the more powerful, all the more effective and all the more able to keep his creature locked away and never heard. Greg knows that his Machiavellian nature, his duplicitous nature and slavish devotion to the doctrine of the ends always justifying the means, results in him staying on top of the pile. He is proud of his orchestrations, his status as Supreme Puppet Master. He knows that people are there to do his bidding, to be moved where he wants them to go, to carry out his wishes and best of all, they often do not even realise that they are doing it.
Of course, Greg is no fool and understands that when the velvety caress of his subtle manipulations is not working, then the iron fist must be deployed. He has no reluctance to dole out his innate wickedness. He will ensure that this is either done through a proxy or if it must be by his hand, then he will reduce the risk of retribution and consequence to him. He evaluates. When that apparently loving gaze becomes the inky dark stare of malice, the whirring mind is plotting to ensure a most malevolent outcome for those that cross him. Whilst the Lesser and the Mid-Ranger will act with malice, theirs is nothing to the concentrated vitriol that the Greater possesses and will unleash when he deems it appropriate. This is another factor which sets him apart from his brethren ; the sheer evil that he is capable of and that will be readily applied in order to preserve his position.
The Greater will pursue for longer, hoover harder, use more energy, charm more fiercely, devalue with scathing intensity and channelling the vast amount of fuel he can draw on from the extensive fuel network, this powers this effective machine as he achieves his machinations. The Greater calculates the impact of his words, either to seduce or to devalue. He assesses the likely responses of those he wishes to control and the likely benefit for him. For him there can be no end, the games must always continue and he must always be wining and be seen to be winning.
The Greater may often be hard to detect because he is most capable of exhibiting cognitive empathy. He has studied and knows how to mimic with considerable conviction, but this is not a perfected art. He will be prone to those pauses when he is ascertaining his best response and that sudden frozen look will appear, albeit momentarily. The Greater is also hard to detect because he will engage in what appear to be good works. The Lesser is self-centred in a brutal and demanding manner, the Mid-Ranger is self-centred in a sulky, feel-sorry-for-me style but the Greater, well the Greater will show generosity, be charitable and appear to exhibit kindness. He will hold positions of authority, trust and responsibility. They are put part of the carefully constructed façade on which he relies more than any other type of narcissist. He builds this façade, cements it and uses it repeatedly. His apparent good works are but a veneer of respectability which are either:-
1. Committed because there will be a distinct gain arising from this act in due course – for example, lending someone money to then have them repay him through actions and loyalty ; or
2. Part of furnishing the façade and thus a worthy sacrifice for the maintenance of this artifice.
Be in no doubt that this apparent sugary surface coats a venal and vicious individual who will never stop in the pursuit of victory. Cruel, perverse and utterly self-serving, behind that engaging smile and warm handshake is a cold and calculating mind.
Of course Greg would never admit to any weakness, unless as usual, he saw an advantage in doing so, but he has them. Like all of his kind he hates criticism. It burns and wounds and he uses his considerable control to keep his fury under control. Furthermore, the innate confidence and superiority that Greg has means that an objective observer will regard him as not necessarily appreciating certain risks to the extent that he might. Naturally, Greg would reject such a suggestion as failing to understand, however, there is an over-confidence which exists, which might, not always, but might lead to occasional difficulties for Greg the Greater, although of course he is equipped to address those difficulties using his customary charm, malice and manipulation.
239 thoughts on “The Greater Narcissist”
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Wow, perfect! You never want to on purpose or accident see what they are capable of. Their wrath is cruel, quick, intense, and shocking. Had it happen, and he employed another to keep his hands clean. But how in the hell do they all have the same screen play?
What does a greater gain by admitting that he is a narcissist? This one knew that he is a narcissist.
It depends on the situation. Most of the time it will not be admitted, but if it is, there will be a good reason for doing so, such as using the disclosure as a threat to a particular victim. The disclosure would only be made to them and otherwise denied if that person sought to refer to it.
okay, thank you, HG!
I read this HG. It affirmed something important to me—I have never, and I repeat never just been someone’s “booty call” is the phrase I believe you used. I have slept with a few people that I wasn’t in sustained relationships with, but we were friends or it was just not “cheap” like it feels reading this. I could never function in this role. Not in the manner it “feels” reading this. There has to be a friendship/relationship.. The whole guy zipping up his drawers to take off to a meeting would never happen. It’s really de-humanizing to read. Yuck.
There should be a class of narcissist …the greatest narcissist and theyd be the narcs that are aware of what they are and have the ability to control their disorder. Than to me is the greatest control. Cognitive awareness and strength to stop the bad habits and tactics.
I just discovered that both me (female) and my father are narcissists. I could never understand why he did what he did to my mother (or my brothers, me basically was always on to his games). And the mixed emotions I had to both of my parents was something I quite never understood, until very recently (I’m a 31 y old really intelligent physician).
To my father: admiration mixed with hatred/anger and sometimes pity.
To my mother: “Why are you so weak?! I hate it” mixed with “Don’t hate me, I’d die without you”.
Needless to say I can’t maintain a single healthy relationship. I always only feel infatuation to narcissists, yet the relationship eventually dies out because my narcissistic nature shows up and beats the manipulative-playing victim initial role.
Only idiots fall in love with me, needless to say I find that absolutely repulsive to be married to them..
My life is a living hell.
My religious beliefs/social stigma prevent me from triangulation. So I end up breaking up with everyone to preserve my image/religion.
Dear HG, do you have any articles dedicated to female narcissists? I’d really like to see your perspective on that, it’s not as easy for us as it is for male narcissists.
Absolutely
And his exaggerated over confidence and grandiousity shall be his downfall one day.
The 3 schools of narcissists stick in my mind as The Marx Brothers.
Lesser: Harpo, honking his horn with not a lot else important to say.
Mid-Range: Chico, “It’s-a-justa-friend-I-know-a-from-a-work.
Greater: Groucho, the funny intelligent flirty one.
“The boring one” (Zeppo) represents your average ‘man about town’. ——-A-ha
Sarahjane, great comparison to the Marx Bros!!
There is much in Chained, however HG I don’t agree on all your obs on co-dependency. I think they are a little harsh. I think victims’ self esteem does not depend on you, neither is agreeing with you, obeying or offering information always for their self esteem. It is more about keeping safe. If their life was threatened in early years, these behaviours, like offering information to appease the abuser, have been demanded by the tormentor as “how to live”. I don’t think self esteem is always involved because it had to be hidden. Sometimes pleasing you is like swatting a fly. It doesn’t mean what you tell yourself it does. For me co-dependency is not in my nature and wasn’t when I was growing up but I was taught certain behaviours that stopped worse abuse and so learned this language.
The narcissist looks at these behaviours as you have done, as being about them. I now wish I hadn’t have let them. It was then I should have left home but I thought “they can’t be that stupid, surely.” The victim may be offering for other reasons, mainly, “making it work without investment to pass the time”, “keeping the peace to get a job done.” But I’ve sat next to enough of you lot to know you’ll say it’s about you anyway because it’s free ammunition. You don’t want to acknowledge the other person exists, and they simply can’t believe that such an asshole exists and so doesn’t react properly.
Now I can see they keep you there by making the abuse your identity. They don’t allow you to experience anything else, only servicing their whims or ego. They have this way of looking at you (from my earliest memories) that says “go on, try to escape. You’re trapped, I know it, I’m enjoying it and if you tell anyone I’ll kill you.” Then after that look, acting like an angel.
That was probably their most effective weapon in controlling me.
ava wow, so similar. I almost do not want to know if I have other relatives from my parents. I probably do and this makes me sick. I feel like I’ve woken up in a movie in someone else’s life. The abuse comes to me at night too, when I’m trying to relax. Mainly because I passed all the years thinking the words and behaviour were loving and they were actually things like:
I’m feigning concern and encouraging you to feel shame that I’m not parenting you.
I’m allowing you to be hit and then telling you it’s not happening and laughing at your confused, self-blaming face
I sabotaged your school auditions, parties and travel after acting like your best friend
That crying, sadness and “character” was all fake.
I’m still astounded. Their behaviour has shaped every part of my identity and worldview. I still get flashbacks to being a baby sitting alone in a room and feeling abandoned. Lying on the floor after being punched and the laughter. Being followed when walking and having them come up to my face and harass me. Mocking me when I was learning to speak. Stopping me from participating in any social life until I was 15, implanting a fake social anxiety problem into me. Choosing narcissist friends who continued the bullying, who I thought loved me, then losing them all without a funeral or any kind of memory of bonding with an empath.
I think narcissist breaks in the child very early, much like genital mutiliation. They go after you with the tactics to remove the soul. I distinctly remember thinking “hold on hold on, I don’t understand this but you have to lie to them”, when my mother was watching me to see if she’d made me a narcissist. She was anticipating I’d join them. But she couldnt’ get me. I saw as I was growing up a kind of awe and admiration which she punished me for. but I knew at age 2 or so they were not like me and I was alone. She went after and after and after my soul and kept watching me, and then around age 6 she gave up. I had a split personality, the dead and depressed child and the one who wanted to live and loved the world. So I’d sit on my own a lot to let it settle.
I wanted to ask the others, do you get flashbacks either alone or in a relationship?
It’s been pointed out that are instincts come from our early wiring. I sometimes have this sensation that came from the house environment that I’d been raped and they were hiding it. I don’t know for sure, but it feels stored in my body.
Africanvioletsite,
I have often had flashbacks to past unhappy situations with narcissists when interacting with them or other people. I imagine that’s pretty common. I’ve heard it described as “baggage” that we carry around from unresolved negative situations. I have been fortunate to never have suffered physical abuse, but I’ve had my share of emotional and psychological abuse. I also was a huge disappointment to my mother and her family that I was apparently too weak and defective to become a narcissist like was considered the ideal. From my perspective my mother and her family hated and ridiculed me. It wasn’t until I was grown with children of my own that I came to realize that they envied me in many ways.
Your abuse was much worse than mine and probably requires more time to process. I can say that as time passes, these flashbacks have become more and more infrequent. Now they are more like worn out images that have lost their importance. I am no longer that powerless, unhappy, frightened girl. Now I am a successful and settled mother and grandmother with my own power to see that none of my family ever suffers those feelings I had to suffer as a child. Best of luck to you. I will be sending you positive thoughts and energy.
Thank you windstorm2 for sharing. I love the image of a better life because I don’t think I’ve ever felt safe before and I’m in my early thirties! It gives me hope! I commend you for getting so far and for seeing it for what it was without letting it affect you.
Thank you for sharing this experience of being rejected, and I can relate to this particularly well. I experience flashbacks as a sudden feeling of being punched between the eyes and blacking out. I think it is the shock of watching the three sociopathic narcissists (my father, mother and brother) gang up on me and attack out of nowhere. It was violence, randomly picking a fight, screaming, scathing words.
I had narcissistic friends as I mentioned and there is a real difference with a sociopath. There is no happiness as they’re abusing you. They go for it with full force, total belief and commitment to their hatred of you. They really do hate you. Seeing that in my parents’ eyes after somewhat of a golden period in my early years, together with social outings playing happy family where I was the shiny prize, really fucked me up. They’d literally take us home, shut the door, and say “right,” and go about this slaughter. They had me believe I was hideous, fat, boring and a failure. Now i look at photographs and see such a pretty girl. I know now they were jealous and didn’t want me to love anyone but them. I had no self esteem or hope for life whatsoever.
It doesn’t hit me until now to count the toll of what happened to me and what I missed out on in life. Life was a moment by moment survival. Everyone thought we had a happy family, my mother had this way of appearing sheepish and terrified when I had the opportunity of ratting on her, so she kept the abuse secret. She had a way of explaining how I deserved the hits and she had a way of creating cognitive dissonance by talking about “those other domestic violence families”, she had a way of taking me out for treats and making me feel guilty for her apparent position of helpless abuse victim. She has this pity-inducing, wearing heart on her sleeve charming act that everybody (and I mean everybody) falls for.
By university I was still being bashed by my brother. He too had a way of going after me and also pretending to be my protective god. He wouldn’t let my boyfriends come over. and although I went on to achieve my dreams, I never could enjoy them or feel OK because nobody has ever cared about me. That is a fact. They made sure of it. All of the narcissists in the circle have a way of looking down on you like “poor sparrow”. They love this word “sparrow.” Now I regret spending one second in their company. I of course was primed for the long succession of narcissists who came along to ruin my life in my twenties.
This is why it is so important to get this into schools. Get the word out in any way you can. Abusers have long-thought out and intricate ways of hiding and justifying their behaviour. If I had just one person pull me aside and say “this isn’t right” then I wonder how much better off I would have been, getting tools to create a normal life. Every single person I told about the violence made excuses for my family. Generational ignorance of good parenting. Stress. The sociopathic narcissist can see very well what they have done. The worst is that they and all narcissists look at you suffering the symptoms of terror and violence with the expression “sucks to be you!” and family friends carried on with this “inferior offspring, your poor parents”. What kept me there was as HG describes, “unthinkable”. It was unthinkable they had punched the life out of me without remorse.
Africanvioletsite, yes there is a better life and you can find it. I spent many, many years of my life shell-shocked and miserable. I hadn’t achieved much inner peace by my early thirties either. What it took for me was creating my own family, life and career and slowly gaining a personal power within myself. Finding people who understood and were supportive was very helpful too. Despite how it may seem, you are never alone. Keep moving forward and eventually the pain and memories will all be behind you.
Thank you so much windstorm2! I can’t imagine it. I never had someone say I could have a good life other than narcissists licking their fangs.
Reading the Devil’s Toolkit was the most helpful in understanding what happened to me but I still have difficulty tracing my PTSD symptoms because what my mother has done is not only evil, it is the behaviour of someone I’d be willing to kill. A family is supposed to be safe and set you up to win. She spent my life teaching me the A-Z of self esteem, failure and destruction. Why I stuck around forgiving them I will never understand. It may have been their own unhappiness or my denial.
I now see I coped by having a simulated exchange while working towards my own success, letting them think they won. At least now they have to live with the knowledge anyone they meet might have heard about them.
Wow, Africanvioletsite, that sounds so sad and yes, very similar.
I have more flashbacks to early childhood through feelings, through a deeeeeeep pain which can be triggered by other people, esp. ex-narcs. I sometimes feel a deep pain way beyond the current situation. Someone behaves in a certain way (boyfriend), and I’m helplessly caught in a dark endless downward spiral, feeling like a helpless 2-year-old.
I was also looking for a long time for an earlier trauma which I couldn’t find. Through hypnosis I remembered a situation where I was very small and my father was raging at my mother. Yes, I know that feeling, being all alone in your family but being told that you are the one imagining things. I was always told that I was too sensitive. My mother also fakes motherly concern (still today) while abusing me. I was recently talking to my brother-in-law about how she used to beat me at lunch time because I wouldn’t eat (whatever horrible stuff she put in front of me). He had no idea, even though he was around at that time.
At the moment, I keep dreaming of my first love, whose secondary source I must have been. I was dreaming about whole conversations with him, where we were talking everything through (from today’s perspective), then I had a dream about his girlfriend, she trying to make up to me (strangely enough), and then again about him wanting to get me back, and me not falling for that anymore. It is very strange because it was such a long time ago.
I was always one the outside looking in. I always felt that this was due to an injury and thus things wrong with me as it makes people uncomfortable. It took decades and social media/internet for me to see many parents adoring their children who are less than perfect for it to gradually sink in that in the right loving parenting hands, I would not have felt so isolated and alone. The warmth of a loving mother would have truely been able to counter the bleak view I had developed of life. Instead, I absorbed it all: my fault from the injury, my fault cause that is what my mother and sister drilled in to my head. I am slowly understanding late in life how my deep pain and that isolation prevented me from ever really seeing how effed up so many people are and failtures in relationships were quite often a result of their behavior or just another unhealthy person rather than something intrinsiclly wrong with me. My mother still tried to blame me for my problems but she could not ever see her role, her deep failures, her total lack of empathy and compassion and love prevented her from teaching me a different way of viewing the world.
You poor baby 🙁 there is no reason why you didn’t get a mother, we need to accept it’s just bad luck. It feels wrong to be the most responsible adult at two years old!
Yes Sarabella I read the “outside looking in” rather than being in the moment as children is a sign of them being abused.
I remember this to. I suppose the brain had to split from reality that was too dangerous.
I couldn’t ever relax and my mother used this symptom to shame me all over again. God I want to stab her. She is a foul bitch, a pervert and a failure of human life.
When you said you want to stab her, it made me flash on the utter rage I used to feel about my mother. I always thought i was just so angry just because. My sister was always angry but overtly so. Mine was buried deep. I just thought this was all normal. To feel so profoundly alone and adrift with no mothering and nurturing. I am actually really grasping how she has been punishing me for decades for her perversions cause that is what they were. So many things just flash by now, things that were so confusing and triggered that sense of unease and like I was sucker punched. I never felt like I knew why exactly. It was abnormal behavior, the incongruencies and inconsiste inconsistencies. the gas lighting… Yeah, not sure I will ever speak to her again. And other than 3 lame hoover attempts, email and a letter and working through my child, she hasn’t gotten up the courage to pick up the phone. I just have to remind myself that this is nothing new. And that I don’t need to rush in anymore to fill the void. Its all up to her and based on the past, nothing will happen.
The panic can throw some therapists sometimes as they’re trained to treat anxiety as an isolated symptom.
In a narc situation your mind has associated good and happy feelings to a bad person. This I think is the panic. They represent love which makes you vulnerable and then the “slaughter” starts.
To cope I have chosen to ignore appearances of the coterie and said “who cares if I’m stalked?” And I have allowed myself over time to see I took a quick fix with an illusion to cope and I now see he is ugly and far beneath me, although they try to make you believe the opposite and these words can stick.
We don’t need them! Tell yourself anything you do is great. No need to prove you didn’t deserve abuse 👍No need to correct their words or actions. ❤️
Good description of the panic. He was the one first told me to stop panicking. I didnt recognize the experience and emotions I had slipped in to. Yesterday I was wondering more about the panic dynamic. Your description makes total sense. Attachment in great conflict with deep undefined intuition. I didnt have an anxiety disorder, something was causing it.
And I am glad I panicked. It meant I was aware and alive. It meant I would never become long term supppy or a permanent part of his supply harem.
Panic is the body’s effective internal alarm system.
While the narcissist tells you you’re in the clouds, your panic alerts you to the fact he or she is going after your:
Dreams
Time
Confidence
Money
Reputation
Physical safety
Don’t buy into the shame over anxiety. They will all use it against you particularly smirking narcs who don’t miss days at work. I was just served by a narcissist in a hardware store and I sensed it, I flushed and my heart raced and I stared away while I was taking. He stared and smirked at his prey. After I felt ashamed like I “lost” and then I said to myself, “hey, he was a danger! That was my body saying get away from a very bad man” – my belief is that anxiety is never random or meaningless.
This is one thing I have been working on. Why do we feel ‘shame’ for saving ourselves? Wherever does that come from? Stay and fight? Fight what? You can’t fight mental disorder but maybe that is why it’s so confusing. The danger is energetic and psychological so it is so hard to clearly define why those alarm bells rang.
And he went after all of those in me. Every signal one. Dream he had changed, my time to see him, my confidence in who I was and that things had changed (30 year hoover), money (he conned a ‘loan’, money to fly to see him and more), reputation (he tried to cast a wide smearing net but unlike his other prey, while most people didn’t turn from him, they all told me he is a loser so they know his true colors), physical safety (he verbally threadened me in so many ways – overt and covert).
And he thinks nothing is wrong with him. This is not normal human behavior. Maybe common, and getting more common, but not normal.
I remember when the panic really started. I told him I was falling in to a fight or flight mode. And that he scared me, a feeling I never had in the beginning. He asked why, why do I scare you? I can’t even remember what I said, but he started to tell me to not assume things. So many conversations that danced around his intentions with me. That alone should be a huge red flag. Conversations that seemed like they were about “where we are going” but they were even more basic than that… do you even like me? Interacting with him wasn’t enough to answer that. I could never even tell in the end. Of course, I told him, I liked him a whole lot and he said, he liked me more than I would ever know, but then, why the horrible dance… now I get it, but at the time, if he liked me, why would I be afraid of him….what was sparking that level of reaction, almost animalistic level of a reaction.
Absolutely Sarabella. Your gut instincts knew what your head didn’t.
I have unintentionally wounded greatest by allowing them to consider me a stupid protege and then becoming better at them than what they do. I achieved it by feigning dependence and then leaving, by professing loyalty and then acting according to my values.
I’ve been seriously hurt by them but this is how I won without realising I won until way after.
You have to learn how to hold people to account and then cleverly humiliate the greater and add a betrayal blow. Example, create your own language together, agree with him over a long period of time and mirror him, acting as an unwavering source and then when he boldly assumes your compliance, betray him as publicly as possible.
I’ve done this several times and instead of fury, I saw deflation.
I’ve only achieved it in a work and family situation, love destroyed me because of my traits. Well, post-coital friendship rather.
Thanks africanviolet, I’ll keep keep our hints in mind for the future.
Now I want to answer Sarabella. Dear Sarabella, there is no research into the origins and the cure of complex b, or a and c. None. I cannot quote you any research being done in that regard anywhere in the world. Nobody beyond the victims and the narcissists is aware of this disorder, beyond vague mentions in psychology, and psychiatry, and what they’ve got is totally wrong.
There is only 1-4% of the population afflicted by this disorder. They have not been identified, because they don’t visit psychologists. Those who end up in jails and prisons are considered criminals and evil. That’s the end of the debate.
Most of them are considered ‘fine’ by society. Some of them are elected presidents.
So, no there is no research. It’s just the way things are.
Kasabian…..
“You’re in love with a psycho,
And there’s nothing you can do about it”
Ain’t that the truth.
From my assessment of your writings that I have read thus far on your blog, the base for your creation of these categories is largely based on intelligence according to behavior. It is the intelligence of the mentally ill individual that relates to the skill and the control as to how the narcissistic sociopath behaves toward the victim. This also (being intelligence) reflects upon self awareness of the individual, if the person is aware that the individual is indeed a narcissistic sociopath. Narcissistic sociopaths vary in style, but they are all capable of violence, all are dangerous, all are capable of great bodily harm and even murder, if the circumstances are right. To suggest anything else, to tell your readers that some, such as “a greater,” are more physically safe than others, is extremely dangerous, because it’s simply not true. I know this for a fact to be so. Help your readers, don’t hinder, for God’s sake, man.
I have always explained that we all the capacity to cause physical injury etc but some of our kind are more prone to doing it than others. Furthermore, there are situations where the risk is reduced. Therefore whilst I do not state “you will never be at risk of physical injury” it is entirely accurate to state that some people are at less risk than others.
I think it’s a given that all Narcs are capable of violence? Not only that but all humans in general are capable of violence. Some more than others. It doesn’t just boil down to narcs being violent, society as a whole holds a threat of violence. I don’t feel there is ever a black and white ‘they will or they wont’ with narcs or anyone else. We all have it in us and it’s worth remembering that.
Narcs don’t have the monopoly on violence.
HG: do you think that there is a range of psychopathy? Is it more like: either someone is a psychopath or he is not? Or can someone be less extreme? In regard to the design of your brain, this seem illogical to me.
Because I have gone back to thinking that my ex is a greater, especially considerig that he doesn’t have to be the most intelligeet or scheming one. I just think he is hm … a more contained psychopath or something like that. All his last e-mails were definitely designed as an attack, while sounding lovely on the surface (at first).
NarcAngel…
From way up there comment….
Waxed? Dont know what you were waxing…. but if it’s your south of the border regions…. may i suggest lasering it all off. Best decision ever by me. 2nd to escaping my narc.
Just saying.
And we will leave that discussion there.
😉 😇😺
FIndinglife
No. It was my moustache (south of the border). I only mentioned that because it was in the most unlikely of places to have a conversation about narcissism pop up. Its not like I know her intimately (although she does me lol). She was nervous to approach the subject and then was so relieved I could validate her experience. Shes thinks Im her new best friend. Up side is very thorough in her work as takes time talking about it. Down side is appts take longer. But she has thrown in some free services so thanks once again HG! The extent of your generosity knows no bounds.
I’m pretty sure there are bounds… 😉
And cool story NA.
HG indirect caretaker of lady gardens.
Something else to add to the CV?
Bahahahahaha… and now we know. HG will tolerate a few brownie recipes, maybe an exchange on essential oil aromatherapy, but the hammer comes down on any and all comments for waxing.
MLA
Re:waxing
Yes apparently he draws the line at any talk about the curly curtains or topiary of same. Again, I only brought it up to demonstrate the unlikely setting in which the subject matter came up.
‘Curly curtains’!!!!!
Hahahaha
“By my terminology I am a Greater Elite Narcissist.” – HG Tudor. HG pats himself on the back. I’m such a big shot because I deem myself to be such, and if I declare it, it must be so. What a pity, the title is only in his mind’s fantasy. The professionals have no idea what he is going on about. He is a what? Categorizing by intelligence level is completely a narcissistic endeavor of grandeur. Intelligence can fall anywhere on the scale. This would make defining any particular individual into a specific mold of the intelligence categorical skill of the narcissist more complicated than it has to be. All narcissistic sociopaths are capable of certain abusive behaviors: theft, violence, fraud, lying, manipulation, gaslighting, rape, etc. Each individual has their own style, intelligence and skill. It is accordingly, the intellect awakens self-awareness. Suffice to say, I disagree with your categories because they add confusion by concreting what should not be concreted. Simple is best. Narcissists do this . . . Narcissists say this . . . Do this to counter the narcissist . . .
It is not just to do with intelligence. I’ve made this clear previously.try again.
“The professionals have no idea what he’s going on about”
I have a friend who’s a midwife. She’s delivered hundreds of babies. She has no children of her own. I have. Who would you say has the most knowledge of Motherhood, me or her?
If the professionals have no idea what he’s ‘going on about’ then shame on them for being so conceited to think they can gain more knowledge from a text book than the real life study.
karen1313, I was only referring to the made-up category situation, not the experiential knowledge of HG himself as a narcissists.
KAREN1303…
Brilliant!
Hi TrueColours, all psychological catogaries are essentially made up. All PD ‘s are essentially made up. They are in place to help us understand and compartmentalize ourselves/others behaviour. We need those boxes to make sense of the world. That doesnt mean they are true or correct though. No person is black or white (though narcs would disagree 😉) and no ‘expert’ can truly diagnose anyone by ticking boxes. The human psyche doesn’t work like that. It takes some arrogance to think otherwise.
However, as a guide, HG’s schools and cadres work, and for those of us who have an incessant need to understand to make sense of what’s happened to us it fits nicely and helps with confusion. I myself HAVE to make sense of everything. It’s who I am. I won’t rest until I can understand and HG’s writing and explanations have been instrumental in ending my confusion. As the saying goes ‘it takes one to know one’.
I’ll stick to listening to who, in my opinion, is THE expert.
Thanks Karen, you’ve understood exactly why I classify as I do.
I have an excellent teacher 😉
True.
So called professionals know nothing about the complex b disorder, not only nothing but the information written in the psychiatric manuals is plane false, and misleading.
In fact, a degree in psychology or/and psychiatry disqualifies you to be an authority on the subject. Unless you pass the crucial and the only prerequisite and that is being either a victim of narc abuse or actually be a greater narcissist with 100% IQ.
In fact, the only insight I gained into understanding of narcissism comes from three greater narcissists.
In case you are an empath doing research into the subject from our kind point of view, the prerequisites to do such research is having been a victim extensively, from the family of origin to being a spousal predator’s victim or a primary intimate partner source. Other prerequisites are 100% IQ, and 100% EQ.
I agree that only personal experience gives you insight into these type of people. I admit, all these different labels are confusing. Especially when there is so much debate about them amongst professionals. Science is still learning about the human brain. Nothing has been solidified. Even terminology. I do not know what having 100% IQ or EQ means. However, I knew for a fact how I felt when around these types of people. The most intense emotions evoked from me were from my psychopath. I do not believe he was a greater, or high functioning. Yet, I felt the most fear because of him. My mids and lessers, though causing me pain and angst, never were able to shake me as much as the psychopath.
I agree with your last sentence, this is just how they affect empaths emotionally. There is a strong negative energy surrounding them, so much so their victims end up sick, ill, or dead from their sheer presence. Even remotely.
High IQ means your neuron network is rich and developed and high EQ means your mirror neuron network is rich, and highly developed, like a beautiful healthy tree.
Sorry for poor English, I meant “better than them at what they do”.
The greater’s ego and assumption you adore them is a great weapon. Similar to their tactic, you need them to believe in your investment before your big bam.
However, I’m sure we all have better things to get on with.
TC: on the one hand I understand your confusion and your point, on the other hand it does make sense. HG didn’t say that only Greaters possess a high level of intelligence, but I guess one could say that they use their intelligence differently, with more design, because as Narcissistic psychopaths, there are no emotions taking up useful space in the brain, no hindering emotions or inhibitions, morals, etc. and there are no limits or boundaries to scheming and carrying out plans and manipulations (which is why a more or less normal person could never match their level of manipulation, etc., they could not follow through on evil, self-serving schemes).
To me, it’s helpful to have such a model of a range of narcissism as most narcs in my life are somewhere in the mid range, which to me is more day to day behavior, but my exnarc who is kind of psychopathic twisted my arm within five minutes (figuratively speaking), shattered my world, and he planned a few things months in advance and followed through step by step. He also would never show any sign of weakness and would never accept any sympathy or pity, while my mother uses this as one of her main weapons. Therefore it is not “all narcs do this or that”, my mother is completely different.
I also think that the extreme charm and amount of energy and time put into seduction is a good criterion.
Of course every individual is different and has a different framework so to speak.
“Professionals” do say that there is a range but fail to make the differences clear.
Well put.
Yes Ava, you phrased it perfectly by saying mids display day to day behavior for the most part. However, psychopaths (as Emotion Detective stated) have a much heavier darker energy. I felt it with mine from the moment I met him. Even though I was with him for a short 3 months, the affect he had on me was much greater than all my mids and lessers put together. I would not classify him as a ‘Greater’ though, because despite being very intelligent, his life was unusual. He lived in the shadows. He did not have a corporate job (perhaps because of his criminal record), had various aliases, and never used his actual name. Such things would be viewed as obstacles for normal people. Yet he was doing quite well: a nice condo in an upscale part of town. Successful professional friends. He was also able to generate income from God knows where and how. After the relationship, I felt I had been run over by a train. Never had I felt such intense heaviness. I wanted to understand what the hell he was and how he had so much power over me. So I ran a criminal and financial credit check on him. That’s how I learned of his criminal history. I also noticed a pattern. It seemed he moved to different cities across the country, taking up new identities, ‘laying down roots’ (as he called it). I think he may have fathered many children too – giving women the false impression he was finally ready to settle.
So you did have a Greater already, Love? 🙂
I simply felt destroyed. I had contacted my exnarc a few weeks ago to ask him some questions, and between all his beautiful sounding lies, he stated that he had not expected me to become _dysfunctional_ so fast. Haha. When I was with him, I felt like I was becoming see-through, completely … sucked dry or something. Disappearing.
I believe that he is a psychopath but less well functioning than HG. My guess is that he is aware that he is a narcissist but that he doesn’t realize clearly what it is exactly that he needs and why he acts the way he does, – though he certainly does know what he does by design and the impact on other people. I asked him if he knew anything about trauma bonds, brain/neuronal pathway/neurotransmitter changes and C-PTSD, and he denied that; my guess is that this is true.
I can’t know for sure if he is a full narcopath and I don’t know even as much as 20 % about his real life, much less his thoughts and designs. I only know about his other relationships and family what he had told me.
My initial distinction between different kinds of narcs was malign and non-malign narc. I know for sure that mine is malice incarnated, so to speak. Golden days were extremely short lived.
Hm … I never felt a heavier energy, just – pure evil. And ice cold, 100% complete lack of empathy. Exactly as HG has phrased it, an iron grip. Figuratively and literally. I felt and saw the inner void, and felt his unstableness, and that he lacked any basic trust in his core. I don’t know how he did it, but he never seemed dark when looking into my eyes and stating innnocently in a beautiful calm voice in beautiful, perfectly phrased words the cruellest, coldest things. He managed to look totally innocent. In the beginning, I sometimes thought that he was just plain crazy, before I knew about narcissism; in the very first days he sometimes scared me with some really strange character streaks (for which I have found the explanations now, of course, through this blog).
Never a hint of weakness or depression, or doubts. He once hoovered me by writing me that he felt so guilty and very down because of it. That lastet exactly for one phone call, then he turned around 180 degrees and laughed, was in high spirits and very much amused by my attempts at soothing him (fool that I was). When I got angry then he used his wonderful charm.
I would regard him as a Greater because he planned his attacks against me, and executed his plans over months, and because there were no inhibitions whatsoever in what he did. Even though he also seems to have experimented a little with me, which is also what he admits to have done. He is also kind of … playful, which I actually think HG is from time to time, too. 😉 Like there are different layers, a deeper, darker, scheming long-term one, and a lighter playful one for superficial amusement in the present moment. Incredible charm on top of that.
All while never raising his voice nor his hand against me once. Like … a beautiful smiling angelic ice sculpture, which was alive enough to scheme, talk and perform on a stage.
My kind-of-mid-range father-narc and mother-narc would shout, sulk, use name-calling, obvious down-putting, contradictions and abuse, obvious egotism, triangulation, etc., they would not keep the perfect facade up at all times (just the outside one, of a perfect christian family). Their control was obvious and kind of raw and … clumsy.
Very interesting with your background check. ;D Wow. I might do that in future beforehand, if I ever think about getting serious with a man again.
I don’t think that every narcissistic psychopath has to have a perfect life. Maybe only the best of them are perfect chameleons. But isn’t constant change actually a criterion?
My exnarc has moved constantly, too, and had lots of different occupations, but not in secret. Though I don’t know where he lives now, but I would have his office address. His current occupation (own company) seems to have been stable for some years now. He claimed to have some secret long term plans, he was doing a degree for on the side …
I have no way of knowing if he has any ex-wives or children, though I believe him that he hasn’t, because he had never wanted to and never lost control. I only know that he has fathered a child now, certainly planned by him (and is kept awake now at night by the 3-year-old of his pregnant current PS (serves him right) she has with her husband) …
My kind-of-mid-range-father though had at least one extramarital daughter, whom he never cared for in any way, and I would suspect that there were more. He changed jobs and places constantly, too, us all in tow … And what my mother says about the reasons doesn’t make sense at all. She on the other hand never ever showed any interest in any other men at all. She never changed jobs because she has never had one (not so perfect housewife), she has always felt entitled to be provided for by everyone … —> Many differences, I need a manual for every single one of them. I am actually the most puzzled by my mother.
When I couldn’t sleep last night I made a list in my mind of all the non-too-obvious emotional abuse I have suffered through my life. That list is endless, no matter if it came from lower, mid-range or higher narcs.
Thank you Ava. Your comment has me pondering now. Questioning if he in fact was a greater. Though honestly, I will not honor him with such a name. He does not deserve that title. ‘Bat sh*t crazy’ would be better suited for him 😀 I also thought he was deranged when I was with him. You have me reminiscing now about whether he fit the profile of a greater. I think I was a secondary intimate source, so he didn’t turn full demonic on me. Though he showed me his cold fury. It was so thick and heavy, I could taste it. I like what you said about there not being a perfect narc psychopath life. You’re right, they’re born chameleons. Good thing is I’m laying on the beach right now as I think about him. The ocean is the best place to release the negative energy of the past. As I write, there is a seagull that is eyeing my sandwich and inching closer. I’ve told him no several times, but he’s not listening. He’s protecting the premises around my mat. And he doesn’t give up. Very narcy of him. In the past, I would have thought the bird was my friend and he liked me. Now I realize he just wants me for my food. Lol food, fuel. Ah, the circle of life. I won’t give him any because there is an ocean in front of us and I don’t want him to become lazy. It is also not good for his digestion. I’m already starting to like the little jerk.
Love, you seagull experience made me laugh. Have you seen Finding Nemo? In it the only thing seagulls ever say is, “Mine! Mine!” 😝 Glad u are able to release your negative energy there. My favorite place to release the negative is into the moving leaves in a woods. Good thing mine’s not the ocean. Only see one about once a decade!
That’s hilarious! I haven’t seen Finding Nemo but will definitely do so now. I think my seagull was hoovering saying ‘mine, mine, mine’ too. Lol!
The ocean is my haven.
Love
Careful. Theyre called shithawks for a reason.
Lol! But this one had such pretty blue eyes lol. It was different than the rest 😉
Love
Ole blue eyes is different from the rest until you feed him. Then youre gonna see a whole lotta brown eye. Sound familiar?
Yup. Ungrateful bastard lol 😁
Oh, you’re so lucky, Love, lying on the beach … !! *sigh*
It’s strange being a secondary source, isn’t it … I must have been one to my first love, and I have no clue how he really is with his girlfriend. But the damage he did to me was enough already.
It’s not so easy to profile everyone … I didn’t even know about narcissism when I met my ex-narc.
I think it’s more important how he made me feel and the damage he did and focus on changing that. I also try to focus on the good things in my life and to look forward, and not to think too much about ex-narcs.
The sea gull story is great. Yes, we have changed.
Yes Ava. It is important to focus on everything we have and who we are. To be honest, I’m done trying to figure out what school, class, disorder they had or have. They don’t matter anymore. God has blessed me with so much. I should invest that time in discovering all that God has given to me. We are the powerful ones. We carry the light.
Absolutely, Love! 🙂 And I’m happy to see that you are getting better and value yourself.
I totally agree with you TC .
The ” professionals ” don’t have any idea at all do they .
I’ve spent hours with them & many haven’t got a clue about true narcissism yet alone how abusive, controlling & manipulating narcissists can be . They sit there with there psychology degrees & shelves full of text books, fake empathy & yes i totally understand comments when clearly they don’t
The same applies to the police & the judicial system.
Thinking about it if they are so good at their jobs why has this site got nearly 40K subscribers & over four million hits ….
Interestingly NSS I was just reading a newspaper report about a woman who has been sentenced to 11 years in prison for repeated domestic violence against her fiancé. He was punched, scratched, kicked and stabbed. The woman when having stabbed him called an ambulance for herself and feigned injuries. The report showed gas-lighting, projection, lack of remorse, blame-shifting in her behaviours. She was very controlling and at sentencing had her lawyer roll out a list of factors which were apparently behind her behaviour, but not once did she accept responsibility for what she had done. A clear narcissist. This was not mentioned anywhere, by the police, by her victim, by the judge, by the lawyers and so on. You could tell that the judge was struggling to understand why she behaved as she did and he attributed it to drink.
I read it time & time again HG .
Though it’s predominantly men it’s not exclusive.
In my opinion the police, the judges, social services, councilors & therapists are failing victims because they don’t know what they are dealing with .
It frustrates me so much .
Did you see this ..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4352468/Cricketer-beat-wife-join-Leicestershire.html
I did see it yes. Another of our kind.
HG
And by another of our kind you must mean the Judge.
(I do know you meant Jiminy Cricket however).
Just read the article…”the victim is not a vulnerable person” incredible!! How could she be more vulnerable!! It’s a disgrace.
Consider my piss well and truly boiled.
It’s beyond words isn’t it Karen and a classic example of how little the judges understand about what they’re dealing with, the signs are all there that the perpetrators an abusive narc!
NSS
Hopefully that is changing. At a recent appt for a wax, the woman talked of dating and asked nervously: Do you know about Narcissists? I replied that I was very aware. She relaxed and it all came tumbling out. How she had been love bombed, stalked, etc. She went on to say that when ahe escaped he told her he wanted to change and would she go to therapy with him (enter laughter here). They went in together and spoke with therapist and then she spoke ro each alone. When it was her turn the therapist said to her: do you have children, property, or financial obligations with him? She confirmed no to all. The therapist then said: Run. Run far and sever all ties. He is a narcissist. Then told her to look up and read about narcissism. She took the advice and continued to see him outside if her house etc for some time but held no contact. Also I noted on tv the other day one of those CSI shows that the police extracted information from a woman about her husband in a crime by explaining that he was a narcissist and went into a brief description of what the disorder entails. Thats just 2 incidences in my small world in a couple of weeks. And now there is this blog and HGs books. The mecca of information needed to start a revolution. Now its up to Empaths to further identify and spread the word.
Thanks for your reply NA..
Indeed it is up to us to spread the word!
What I find frustrating though is the lack understanding by the very people who are there to protect us. If the police had said to me on one of the many visits they made .. NNS you are dealing with an abusive narc at least I might have stood a chance. My understanding is that the UK police don’t receive anywhere near enough training to understand it ..
I’ve seen counselors, psychiatrists, victim support, you name it & not once has anyone said to me that he was a narcissist because I honesty don’t think they understand the dynamics of narcissistic abuse. I fear we have a long long way to go, but I’m a firm believer that it should be part of every schools curriculum don’t you think ? .
NNS x
Yes it should be in every school and pre-school. Everyone should be aware, and allowances made for the gross amount of narcs in the community (because they need special assistance too) as well as protecting victims. It should be common knowledge, and I estimate in 50 years’ time it will be.
Unfortunately as I mentioned, school principals and teachers tend to be narcissists for the power over vulnerable children. Politicians are all narcissists. Doctors and psychologists may be.
So who gets the ball rolling?
I experimented last week visiting a house share and immediately recognised a narcissistic couple. I later told them I wouldn’t be taking the house because they are narcissists. This weekend I saw the female instructing my gym class, and she couldn’t give a monkey’s that I’d identified her. So there will be no warfare, no outrage on behalf of narcs, but the identifying must be done for the victims.
Africanviolitesite,
Having worked in the educational system for 25 years as a teacher, I must disagree that teachers tend to be narcissists. While I will not disagree that some narcissists become teachers for the power over children, they are in the minority. In my experience most teachers are very caring people who were drawn to education for altruistic reasons (at least here in my area where the pay is very low for the many years of college required). Many more teachers are the victims of narcissists than are narcs themselves as becomes obvious when you get to know them. Often they are codependents and what HG calls super empaths.
Windstorm2
Keeping in mind that I have not been in the school system for MANY years, my experience with teachers was as you outline. In fact, I loved to go to school (grade school) because the teachers were so kind and it was the only place that I felt I held any value to anyone. They always made sure that I knew that I was smart, good, valued, and safe. It may have kept me from giving up all together when things felt hopeless at home. They can be guidance when you have none and eyes and ears when you feel no one hears or sees you. I wish they could know what a difference they made.
NSS
Yes I do. There should be a course or courses under the umbrella of General Health with sub categories such as Healthy Relationships and Personal Boundaries for example. General Health being mandatory to graduate. Finances too but thats another issue. So strange that Home Ec, Shop, and Phys Ed are considered necessary but not subjects to actually help kids identify and cope. Baking cookies and being picked last on a team didnt help me out much lol but I would have liked to know that what was going on in my home was considered wrong by most and not happening in every home on the quiet. Yes we know that kids will fool around in those classes and deem them dumb but some of that information will stick none the less. Someone needs to lobby for it in the curriculum. I know a guy that could could provide the course material……….
Seriously-what a legacy that would be huh?
Hi NA. Thanks again for replying . Good points.
I contacted a university last year, a friends daughter was studying psychology & part of the course was domestic abuse . I called the tutor & said I’d be happy to talk to the class , explained to her how beneficial it would be for the students to actually speak to someone who’d been through narcissistic abuse rather than learning from a text book , at first she was concerned about my MH doing such a thing even though I said I was fine with it .HG kindly offered when I asked him to supply some of his books which with permission I would’ve handed out to the students . She said she would contact me when the new term started. I’m still waiting .
Likewise I spoke to the local police commissioner for my area who allegedly had domestic abuse high on his agenda,he asked if I’d would take part in an ” up & coming” anonymous TV interview about it, yet again I agreed. You can guess what happened .
I’m trying to lobby an MP here in the UK but I haven’t had a reply yet ..
Giving up isn’t on my list of options ! 🙂
Hi NSS, good for you!! I too have been ‘trying’ to liase with the police regarding how potential DA cases are handled by using my own experience. Overall they handled my case expertly but there was one specific incident that made me want to drop charges from fear. I didn’t in the end but I question how many would have pulled out at that particular juncture. It’s worrying that that could potentially be a life or death decision for the victim and as such needs addressing asap. Four months down the line and I’m still waiting to hear back. Like you, I won’t give up either.
Keep up the good work!
Hi NSS, I agree.
I had an appointment today for CBT. My 5th session. Today I challenged the therapist (in a respectful manner) to explain how working on my panic attacks will help me be less fearful of the ex. We had a discussion about how if I learn to control panic the fear will dissipate. I disagreed. I believe they are treating the symptom (panic) rather than the cause (fear of the ex)
My therapist is a lovely man but he was stumped and obviously not used to being challenged or working without a script. He really didn’t know how to answer as, I assume, my questioning wasn’t covered in his degree. The problem (in my opinion) is that (some of ) the experts are conditioned to working from scripts and ticking boxes and consulting text books looking for the answers. They don’t seem to be able to think outside of the box or indeed even think for themselves.
I’m meeting a friend tomorrow who is a forensic psychologist to discuss the same.
I’m starting to seriously consider studying psychology.
Can I be your new ‘good Doctor’ please HG?
Ha ha, by all means if you think you can handle it.
Alas I admit I couldn’t. Hell I can’t even go to the supermarket alone haha. I might be ok until you morphed into Hannibal Lector which you frequently do in my minds eye 😨
Speaking of morphing- I have to admit being caught up in the ‘guess HG’s identity’ game.
I’m not too familiar with many famous people so I’ve had to Google to eliminate the following;
Alan Sugar
Ian Botham
Mark ‘the beast’ Labett chaser. 😄
Last night I settled on my old boss. He’s blonde, around your height, very very successful, has business and social connections to Prince Charles, (fame connection) is not Northern though has lived in the North for some years (origionally from USA) studied in one of the 2 elite uni’s (can’t remember which) has no children and with my new found knowledge I can now see he was definitely a greater Narc. (My 1st real life greater. Yay)
The fact that he lives 7 miles away from me meant last night I lost a considerable amount of sleep. Haha.
Absolutely. The categorizations of individuals who fall within the complex b spectrum are predicted on the effects that their behavior has upon society, but none of the research examines the origins and the source of the disorder. Nobody asks the question WHY here. The blame is placed squarely on the shoulders of the perpetrator of the anti social behaviors, starting from the least benign to the most dangerous: the borderline – sociopath – psychopath, or in Tudor terms: the lesser – the midrange – the greater, and Vaknin’s overt – covert.
The reason for this is the understanding of reality in terms of good and evil. Such is the sad state of science today. They are basically telling the narc: you behave this way because you are evil.
And the truth is, the disorder is genetic, and its source is in our brain. The narcissistic behavior is an effect, not the source.
They want to treat the behavior, while it is the brain that needs treatment. According to my research.
Emotional Detective:
“And the truth is, the disorder is genetic, and its source is in our brain. The narcissistic behavior is an effect, not the source.
They want to treat the behavior, while it is the brain that needs treatment. According to my research.”
You don’t know a whole lot, do you? You are living in a very, very narrow world. It is not entirely genetic. Do you live under a rock such that every time there is a mass shooting in the US, its weeks and months of public debate and doctors and researchers trying to figure out is it nature, nurture, society and on and on that leads a sociopath to pick up a gun and go on a rampage? Do you not listen to all the debates, the dialogue, read the research to grasp that it is an EXTREMELY complicated topic? Chicken or egg?!
Research shows it is absolutely ALL of the following: Nature, Nurture, Genetics, Society, Trauma, Generational DNA encoding of the blueprint of trauma and more. It is learned, it is taught, it is cultural, it is biological. RESEARCH shows ALL of that. You just are not linking all of the research together to grasp how it all works. Trauma can permanently alter a child’s brain. The longevity studies are just not there as it’s extremely difficult to account for all the factors that play in to this. Society, family environment, economic level, genetics, gender, life events, biology, life style (food, addictions, etc). Societal norms and what is ok or not is a factor. My narc lives where its OK for men to sleep with little 14 year old girls and rape is ok, too. You tell me what that social acceptance is doing to a society?! And to the man who then thinks he can treat other humans in a way that is pathological and narcissistic and how he perceives accountability? You tell me how evil then fits in to this all because I can guarantee that this is a reality many don’t openly talk about because they know its wrong but chose to do this anyway. So what exactly is at play there? What happens to the man’s mind when he does this over and over, finding more and more elaborate ways to justify such atrocities? Who is at fault here? Genetics? Cultural? Gender? Economics (cause that child is being victimized due to desperate conditions)? its just a broken mind that causes the behaviors or the behaviors are condoned and it reinforced the mind’s thinking? And now, what happens to that 14 year old child when she grows up? What happens to the DNA of that girl when she has children and passes on the trauma of being raped by an old man, as research is fascinatingly showing how trauma can genetically affect a generation. Do you think genetics exists outside of a sociological environment? Environment telling the child or adult what is ok or not which reinforces behaviors which reinforces brain patterns? Just look at the research of the effects of porn on a brain, how it changes. Behaviors changing the brain. Do you know the research that shows how the physical body is profoundly affected by trauma and its regulatory systems forever altered? And it can literally change a child’s developing brain? How can you prove in an adult brain that is different later on that it wasn’t early trauma on a child that changed it or born that way? Without extensive longevity studies that account for all the other extremely complicated variables?
You just have absolutely no idea how to abstractly link all this together.
I have seen these useless conversations on the internet, TV, Facebook, forums, radio and on and on. It must feel powerful that you are the ONLY one who knows exactly how Cluster B personalities are formed.
*eye roll*
Totally agree with the system failing….I also find it crazy that divorce courts can issue a restraining order on a man who physically and emotionally abused his wife, was described as narcissistic by her lawyer, acknowledged as such by the judge, yet still be allowed – indeed given a court order to enforce – equal ‘access’ to their child!!! No words. Just no words.
I’m speechless VFH .. where does it all end !
I believe that no matter how well educated, emotionally intelligent or empathetic a therapist may be, it simply comes down to not being able to understand this type of abuse unless you’ve witnessed it first hand.
I’m lucky to have found a great therapist in this field and she went into practice herself after being escaping an abusive marriage.
Conversely I also met with a guy who supposedly did CBT and I swear he was a narc himself! It was ridiculous…I wouldn’t have been surprised if Jeremy Beadle had popped out of the cupboard! He’d got me there under false pretences, gaslit and blameshifted when I pointed it out….I made my excuses and left sharpish.
Hi VFH, that was a good bit of narc spotting. (My new favourite passtime!) Well done on getting straight outta there! I can imagine how that career could be attractive to a narc.
It reminded me of my interactions with the police regarding the ex. The 1st PC they sent was a woman and absolutely fantastic. She was the one that put me on the right path. Told me it was domestic abuse. (and I was genuinely surprised and disbelieving! Can you imagine!) she also stayed after she’d taken my statement and told me of her past and being married to a narc for 16 years. As she told me the stories I was astounded by the similarities. That’s when the penny dropped that I wasn’t just married to a cock lol, there was something far more sinister to him.
When the ex breached the harassment order (approx 5 hours after being served) they wouldn’t allow my origional PC to deal with it and instead sent a big burly arrogant bloke out. I disliked him as soon as he stepped foot in my door. I think now my narc radar must have been on high alert even though I still didn’t understand about ‘things narc’ He was horrible and so full of himself. Stating things like “I’m not going to let him bully you again love” and “we’ll see how tough he is when he has me to deal with” etc. It petrified me as I knew this man would absolutely infuriate the ex and I knew that would be ‘ my fault’.
I was right lol. The same PC decided to let the ex back in my house to collect more stuff (that he didnt even want and had previously told me to burn or bin, which I had the majority of it) I later found out that said PC shouldn’t have given ex permission. I didnt even have police there when he came, said they were ‘too busy’ and that because the ‘low risk box’ had been ticked I wasn’t priority. I was very naive to police procedures at that time as this was the first time I had dealt with them for anything. Anyway…he came for his ‘stuff” and told me I had sent the “worst fucking possible copper” to him. I said “yes, I asked for him by name….” said sarcastically of course and whilst rolling my eyes.
The same day it was all over Facebook that his bitch of an ex had admitted to personally hand picking the worst PC ever to take the case on. And said bitch then instructed said worst PC to try and bully him. But it didnt work because the one thing he hated was bullies and he wouldn’t be bullied! lol.And he was going all the way to the top to get said bully twat PC sacked and said bitch of an ex sued for instructing him to bully. Yes, I’m so important I get to hand pick who I deal with! And no evidence is needed….I juat say “hey, he’s harassing me” and they run to slap a harassment order on him and do exactly what I tell them. Lol.
Again I believe this furthered his own exposure and downfall as who in the right mind would believe that B.S.?!
Oops I’ve done it again! I come on here to say one thing (narcs walk in all professions) and end up writing war and peace haha. Sorry! I find myself going off on so many tangents when it comes to writing here!
Hi Karen1303 and NSS, thank you and yes it’s sheer madness isn’t. The authorities in place to protect and serve are increasingly being held to account for failing those very things.
How dire to have to endure that with the police on top of everything else and to feel patronised by a mental health professional of all people.
Yes, as with any profession, it’s your experience in the field that makes you good at it, not the qualifications.
We’ve had enough though haven’t we? Could there be an uprising? Could all these people who’ve sat quietly for years after suffering at the hands of perpetrators of abuse in various ways finally be feeling confident enough to speak out? To poke their heads above the parapet and for once not be scared of the repercussions? Because of the ranks of other survivors standing beside us?
I really really hope these issues are gathering pace. What I don’t know though is what could be done to support it all…if this blog were a cross section of society (which it is) then we can already see so many differing opinions on the whys and wherefores, not least about the cause/reasons behind an abuser’s behaviour in the first place.
I would love to be a part of things changing though for sure.
I’m also one for tangents – obviously my ex liked to highlight how I had too much to say (what a dick.)
Anyway – narc spotting is also a new favourite pastime of mine….I was talking to a friend about one in her circle…. a married couple, we’re not sure which one is the ringleader….I personally think it’s the husband and he’s turned his wife into one (a mirror version obviously) anyway…they were coming for dinner and I said she should play narc bingo in her head to lighten the moments when their bitching started.
Points for gaslighting/blameshifting/dark stares/back handed compliments over the meal cooked for them etc etc. It’s not a laughing matter obviously but made for a much more enjoyable evening apparently 😁
Narc bingo! I love it lol. I’ll keep that one in mind for future dinner parties. 😊
(This is my new name btw. Formally karen1303)
Wow VFH !
It wouldn’t surprise me though, he’s in a position of power & control and his patients then become his victims in someway .. Wow. I’m glad you were able to recognise him for what he is, imagine the critisism he must have felt when you pointed it out .
My councilor really has no idea, I sit in the session each week and in many ways I feel quite patronised . I’ve learned more here than I have with him and it’s because like you say unless someones witnessed it then they truly they can never fully understand the damage it causes .
Love
I understand your point regarding the term Greater. It struck me as odd when I first came here but I reasoned that of course Beautiful Mind there would refer to himself as no less. The term Greater can conjure up thoughts of greater intellect, greater appreciation of finer things and experiences, greater reasoning. It does not necessarily say greater danger, greater weapons, or greater mental damage. Especially if you are an Empath who is used to seeing things in a positive light and may be just having an awakening. So although some may find it hard to believe that the term could make a difference, I think that it could romaticize things for people in the beginning. In fact I remember reading some posts and thinking: wow, that person sounds like they are proud that they have a higher class of narc than others instead of being horrified. I also remember thinking, well the golden period with a Greater would sure be much better than with that of the others but youd pay for that ten-fold in devaluation when Beautiful Mind turned Psy (gangnamstyle) CoPath shows up.
Picture HG doing that dance in boxers with two-toned blue socks on. Dangerous my ass lol. Youre welcome.
😉
I don’t see how HG wrote this.
Hey Greg, who is warming your bed at present?”
“Why are you interested?” he asks as he places a hand gentle on my arm.
“Oh this is professional purposes only, “ I respond trying to rebuff him, but the hand remains unmoved. He is confident and assured.”
A Greater with a female appliance and four on the side wouldn’t make advances toward a man and risk being rebuffed.
He is assured and doubts he would be rebuffed. Even though he is, it does not cause him too great a concern (he keeps trying) because he is well fuelled by the other appliances he has in his fuel matrix. Makes perfect sense.
Elise, hope you’re right. Agape is divine love, I believe. Thank you for reminding us. Don’t know if narcs are capable of detecting or experiencing it, but I certainly hope so. Agape seeks no gain, only connection and prosperity for all living beings. It’s inclusive of all creatures great and small.
It may be possible for narcissists to feel agape love. Agape is not sentimentality, based on mere personal attachment, as it is usually thought of, but it is a moral or social love based on deliberate assent of the will as a matter of principle, duty, and propriety, sincerely seeking the others good according to what is right.
I’m in counselling at the moment and recovering narc abuse. I’ve since realized I’ve had a life time of them. This article perfectly describes the last one in my life…the one that tipped me over the edge. Sugary and sickly is exactly how I would describe his words, body language, actions and smile. But the good thing is I discarded him. Good job. Thanks for the article H G … funny a narc can be so helpful.
It takes a wrong doer to show you that you are doing wrong.
Youre so uncannyily accidentally freaking helpful.
HG, which narc out of the Lesser, Mid-Range and the Greater would be more likely to give up their power to play a sexually submissive fantasy role?
I would guess a Greater, as they have more stress to deal with. Although I do think it might’ve been his very clever way of pretending to make me appear on control, so the mind fuckery held more weight
Mid-Range.
Thank you. I presume Ted Bundy was a Greater narc.
Correct.
Aren’t we sugar coating by calling them ‘Greaters’ rather than Psychopaths?
I can understand that approach. It is done so it fits in more readily with the other classifications. I do not think anybody is under any illusion as to the danger factor involved however.
Perhaps it is just my own distorted reality. The term Greater has absolutely no affect on me, even after following your blog for some time and reading you books. I actually have physiological reactions to the word psychopath.
Has on effect on you? Are you sure, after all you spent much of your time Love when you first came to the blog expressing your desire to encounter a Greater.
The word ‘greater’ has no physical affect on me. However, just hearing someone say ‘psychopath’, gets my heart beating faster and me more anxious. If the word, Greater, had the same reaction, I definitely wouldn’t express a desire to meet one in person.
Your position has changed then?
If Greater = Psychopath, then ABSO-Freaking-LUTELY.
It does
See, that’s my point. If you said that from the get-go, it could have saved you from all my declarations of love and non-stop flirting. As much as I enjoyed watching the show Dexter, I never wanted to date the guy. A Greater loses his luster and sex appeal when called a psychopath.
That’s been clear from the start, that’s why some readers would question you about your motives Love when you wrote the things you did, you see.
It was not clear to me at all.
Fair enough.
HG, do I misunderstand the term greater? I know several very intelligent, charismatic, manipulative, self-aware narcissists who understand exactly what they are doing, its effects and why they do so. These people are definitely NOT psychopaths or even sociopaths. It was my understanding that these individuals fell in the category of greater. Am I misunderstanding your terminology?
No you do not misunderstand.
Thank you for responding, HG.
You are welcome.
Isn’t this the tricky part? All Psychopaths are narcs, but not all narcs psychopaths?
I am glad you don’t use the word psychopath as it does have a much greater visual and emotional effect. Eating dead people and all. Psychopath removes the understanding and puts the dynamic into the realm of ‘rarity’. Not many Ted Bundys are running around. But there are many Greaters running around. It makes it easier to grasp that your kind are walking among us with ease. Using the term Greater drives home that they are all around us (our president), in our everyday life, and not in orange jump suits or hiding in sheds committing atrocities.
Hi Sarabella. As Mr. Tudor has explained, only greaters are socio/psychopaths. Lessers and mids only have NPD. Is this correct Mr. Tudor? I think by using the term Greater, one can be fooled into thinking they are just incredibly intelligent charming manipulative beings. The word psychopath reinforces how dangerous they can be. Not all psychopaths are killers/cannibals. In fact, the higher their intelligence, the more complex their crime, and less likely they’ll be caught. Worse case scenario, they are caught committing a white color crime and sent to a prison spa. My understanding is the president is not a greater but a mid-range. Socio/Psychopaths are not a rarity in our society. Most are criminals! But the high functioning ones are very good at not getting caught.
Typo: White-Collar crime
I’m so shocked how many narcs I have identified since I learnt. I was here to figure out the ex husband. I’ve now learned my sons Dad is one, an ex best friend, my best friends ex husband and her mother…and lots more! How they move silently until you ‘know’.
So far I haven’t identified any greaters thankfully but they’re the ones I fear most of becoming entangled with.
There are many. Many are decent people struggling with their ego, painful stories, trying to survive life and all and I think they can look like narcs. I also learned a year ago the concept of ‘traits’. People can have traits of narcissism and many things but are not bone deep people with what is classified as personality disorders. I could identify traits of narcissism in me. In my early 20’s, I recognized traits, sat down and decided they needed to go as they would impede my life if I didn’t delete them. In that case, they were more a case of imitating my mother’s way of being in life, social experiences I had had and cultural as well. I was able to shed them. I also found some more in this experience … its why I went Super Nova Empath on my narc. They are there, but they are not the core of who I am. So traits, behaviors don’t always make someone a narc. But I have learned alot more about manipulation and manipulating situations in a conscious way that are helping me to be around those people you describe. I find they are more benign than the malignant true NPD ones. Don’t know if that makes sense.
*lol* Love, I don’t believe this. ;D
Hi Ava. What don’t you believe? 😁
I’m terribly confused now. Nevertheless, psychopath or not, apparently it has not stopped my flirting. Apparently the title makes no difference to me.
I did notice how much more effort went into writing about the Greater Narc, HG. Any reason? 😉
I know myself best of all, naturally.
Ohh, I wanted to see Greg’s reactive response from your third person perspective, when you tell him he’s a Greater Narc…
“Hello Greg. You’re a Greater Narc.”
Simon the Somatic, Vince the Victim, Chris the Cerebral and Eric the Elite next, HG?
Watch this space.
“Hi Greg you’re a greater narcissist”
“Thank you very much for your compliment but I need to correct you- I am not a ‘greater’ rather I am the ‘greatest'”
Mr Tudor, can the level of the Narcissist overlap? I feel like my final Narc was closer to a Greater than any other discription but nowhere near your magnitude.
There are sub-divisions within each school Patricia. If you read the Greater’s Fuel Matrix this may shed some light on the situation for you.
HG I’m curious. Given the education you give your readers here, do you belive as a greater you (or any greater) could still ensnare us? We seem to be pretty clued up because of the knowledge you have afforded us but who would win? Who’s the most expert between yourself as the greater or yourself as the tutor? (Assuming the reader has taken everything in and is on high narc alert) I would think with the greaters control you could steer clear of the obvious red flags if you thought the target might be on to you?
Yes I could ensnare you.
Thank you HG.
You confirm my biggest fear. I’ll stay single!
I’m curious….we’re all tertiary sources and we’re useful for ‘spreading the HG love’ no? What happens when you have no more use for us? When you’ve revealed yourself. Are we to be discarded in true narc style?
You will always prove useful to me.
…that sounds VERY DANGEROUS HG…But you will still follow the 5 rules..wouldn’t you??
I do.
Can a narcissist be impacted and feel the same turmoil in the same way that empaths can after being ensnared? I know somebody who thinks that he is a type of narcissist and codependent. He has been a mess and feels addicted to his ex-narcissist and still stays in contact with her. Since he has been impacted by the ex narc and thinks that he is a type of narc and codependent, does he sound like a greater narcissist to you? Also, he does triangulate since he is looking for a girlfriend, uses flowery language/word salad, and lovebombs (and moves fast when dating).
No he does not sound like a greater narcissist at all.
Any turmoil experienced by us arises from being wounding and/or a fuel crisis and is different form the turmoil experienced by our victims.
Hi Superxena, scarey shit hey?
I welcome the reminders of what HG really is. It’s too easy to forget sometimes.
I remember having a massive debate with myself regarding my first consult. Knowing he would see my address. In the end my ‘need to know’ became stronger than my fear of revealing personal details and so I went ahead with it. Now I laugh about it because I can almost hear HG saying “don’t flatter yourself love, as if I’d come after you” haha. It does no harm to be vigilant though. I think that’s something we’ve all learned.
Hello Karen Comfortably Numb( long name you have😉) are you “K” as well?
Yes it is! I have had both e mail and audio consultations with HG. He knows where to draw the line. But then again,”never say never”…
Hi Superxena, no I’m not K or theletterafterJ.
Feel free to abrieviate my name to KCN, all the cool kids do 😉
I actually wouldn’t dare have an audio with HG. It would scare me! And even though HG proves his control and patience time and time again I fear even he would struggle to control it when I couldn’t get my words out or I was mumbling because of anxiety. He would probably struggle to follow my accent too haha.
Hello KCN( and with that I upgraded myself to cool girl😉)
I am amused by all the names we chose on this blog! It gives a hint of where we are on this struggling process of our history with narcissists!
Glad that you answered my comment. I can assure you that you do not need to fear an audio consultation with HG. I have had several audio consultations with him which I find EXTREMELY USEFUL.
Thanks to them I have been able to keep NO Contact for 18 months.
English is not my first language and he has been very patient with my mixture of accents…I do have to admit though that the first time I talk to him I was nervous..but he has a very pleasant way of making you feel comfortable. Believe me, his input on very specific issues is very valuable and helpful. As I stated before…he has certainly helped me to go “over the fence” and it is very reassuring to have him ” on my corner” knowing that I can talk to him whenever something comes up again.
He is as well very open ,respectful and “easy” to talk to. He is very professional and he has THE knowledge that you need to acquire in every aspect related with NPD.
Do not hesitate in consulting him by audio if you need to do it. For me it was the only way of getting the specific answers I needed to know to very specific questions.
Best wishes
Hey cool girl 😉
Yes I’ve had invaluable consults too but only through email. To be honest apart from my fear/nerves, email suits me better anyway as I have a memory like a sieve and would probably forget 90% of what he told me even before the end of the conversation.
Your English is superb. It beats mine hands down and I’m from England! Kudos to you superxena.
KCN, that would not happen with a private consult. He’s very professional and respectful. You’re paying for a service and he makes sure to deliver.
Indeed I am Clarece and thank you for endorsing that fact.
Hi Clarece, thank you. I don’t doubt for one second his professionalism. To coin a phrase”it’s not him it’s me” haha. This is more to do with hyper vigilance. I am scared of HG I’ll admit. Ridiculous I know but I like to keep him in this sphere of influence. This way I get what I need from a long distance without crossing into any other closer spheres of influence. It’s It’s personal safety thing for me. I have no doubt that rationally I am 100% safe. I know I serve his purposes and he’s taught me enough to know I’m a tertiary source and a white one at that. All this I can see rationally BUT it serves me well to never forget what he is and what he’s capable of. and the one thing I’ve learnt from experience is narcs are unpredictable and it’s dangerous to become complacent with them.
HG my apologies. I also have utmost respect for you. I hope you don’t take offence at how I honestly feel.
“Don’t bite the hand that feeds you” may sound good but I owned a snake once. I cared for it lovingly. I fed it and bathed it and handled it daily. One day it bit me…..
Ditto, KCN. You summed up my feelings exactly, too! I don’t think We need to worry about HG taking offense. After all, we are taking his own words to heart.
At the end of the day, it’s all about what you are comfortable with most.
Part of HG building his legacy and his Grand Design (although we don’t know the details), involves this blog. He knows he needs to keep things as real and genuine as possible to build and keep loyal followers and have it spread through word of mouth. No room for him to start doling out manipulations here. He knows better.
Correct.
Hi Clarece, I know 😊
What we can’t predict is what the future holds though.
I understand your defence of HG and I’ve done the same on occasion. I just wish you could see this isn’t as personal as it appears.
I wouldn’t be anywhere near where I am in my healing if it wasn’t for HG and others here.
I know for a fact I would still be tortured by the confusion and lack of understanding. (They are my nemesis’) I’d even venture to say that if I hadn’t found HG I was destined to remain in chains for life and when I look back and remember how I felt pre HG, death would’ve been welcomed and trust me, I dont say that lightly.
Because of that HG has my respect, undying gratitude, praise and absolute loyalty for being the one that at worst saved my sanity and freed me and at best saved my life (literally). I won’t ever forget that and he will remain a very big player in this mess of mine regardless of what happens next. He already trumps all the therapists I’ve seen.
However, the one thing he can never have of mine is my complete trust. That’s just the way it is I’m afraid.
Hello KCN! I wasn’t exactly trying to defend HG, although I highly admire his work here and what he’s done for me personally too. He knows how grateful I am but I doubt he needs me defending him. I was trying to validate that we do have some weight with our presence for him here with this blog and keeping it on a successful, growing track. He doesn’t want to cause anything that could create messiness in the big picture down the road for himself.
I’m happy for you reading in some of your other comments you felt like you had a breakthrough in the last few days and overcoming some major hurdles making you feel stronger. More of that to come, I’m sure for you!!
I appreciate and see you’re Lovely MLA. I’m concerned though as you are attached to the abuse dynamic “I’m sure he knows how grateful I am” and “he doesn’t need me defending him”. You can leave the jungle now. No need for the simulated relationship or the power/submission game.
An abuser is an abuser. We are gaining insight but no need to give anything for it.
Yes, sometimes this represents a loss. But that is better than this stupid addictive role playing that to be honest, is just contributing to the distortion we are trying to EXIT.
Thank you for reaching out. I’ll try to more cognizant of that. In the context , I believe those statements were made, I meant only that I wasn’t giving HG an endorsement for a consult to another reader to gain “brownie” points with him. But maybe I’m projecting more and not realizing it. Food for thought. Thank you for thinking of me Violet!
Clarece
I didn’t see you as projecting, supporting HGs work and the knowledge provided yes. Nothing more
Your comments have always been insightful, yet maybe like Love stated it depends on where one is on this journey towards healing and becoming empowered by the knowledge.
mLA I believe your intentions are sound but may it serve as a reminder HG is not a friend.
Much as everyone would like some guy with a sword batting their enemies away.
I am giving this advice based on past observations and how the cluster b would view such words.
There isn’t anything wrong with your intentions but my comments relate to how they will be seen and this puts you at risk.
Clarece
Regular readers knew exactly what you meant. We also know there are no brownie points to be had with HG. He does what he does and we all benefit from the information. Some people have a problem with the source of the information/solution and its rather like biting off your nose to spite your face. I encourage people to read his books, join the discussions on the blog, and consultations quite often. The purpose is for people to gain the knowledge and understanding they need not only to heal, but to pay it forward in helping others and shine light into the corners of this disorder and its collateral effects NO MATTER THE SOURCE. It is not for brownie points (however would that even work?!). I dont even have children and yet I would assist in any way I can to get this information into schools. If you were projecting anything it is that you care for others which is more than the faux concern that you received.
Keep being lovely
NA
Disclaimer
I was not paid for this post monetarily or in points. (But if Indy is around Id love a brownie).
Well put Narc Angel.
Hi NA! Count me in on a Brownie Party with Indy and the gang! I was actually very touched with your kind statement about me and almost seeming protective.
With regard to “faux concern”, when in doubt, kill em with kindness and gauge the response.
Clarece
Haha. Kill em with kindness? That’ll have to be your corner. I will return to my perch above the moat like a gargoyle watching over Tudor Estates for interlopers who would do Empaths harm. You know-besides the big guy. Your covered from him by the 5 rules lol.
Hi Clarece, thank you! Yes it’s a very good feeling! My life is certainly taking a turn to the better.
Sorry, I think my use of the word ‘defend’ was possibly not the right word to use. I did understand what you were saying and I’m in agreement. I also have respect and admiration for HG but I just try to remember who he really is. One of my biggest downfalls is only seeing the good in people. I’m trying to balance that now by seeing the best in people but not overlooking or forgetting the not so good things. It isn’t easy but it’s all part of the journey 😊
I hope I didn’t offend you at all with my last post, it wasn’t intended to be arguementative more of a healthy debate. I hope it came across that way but if not I apologise. 😊
No offense taken at all!! Enjoy your weekend!
Just an FYI for anyone concerned.
PayPal does not give out customer’s billing information (including physical address). So if that is what you’re worried about – set your mind at ease.
I’m more worried about squirting my new wallpaper in the bedroom.
Wait… Wut?? There’s happy ending consults? Am I the last to know?
Thank you love.
I didnt realise that. I thought it was the same as how you buy from EBay.
Even though I realise it was my own hyper vigilance filling my head with irrational fears, it’s still good to know.
Thank you.
I understand Karen. But as you know, Mr. Tudor is not like the rest. He conducts himself in a very professional and respectful manner.
He does indeed. And I think more importantly he’s not stupid. He wouldn’t do anything that would be detrimental to his own greater plan.
That said, vigilance serves me well. Over vigilance can be a pain in the arse but I will always have my eyes wide open now. And as HG himself once said to me it’s a good thing to never forget what he actually is ‘in real life’.
Like he would really say no to that question larem. 🙂
Clarece, I didn’t take your message as a projection. I thought it was sweet and well meant. Perhaps we each internalize words differently depending on where we are in our life. Props to Mr. T. His consultations are great.
For a long time, as you well know, I was enamoured with the idea of meeting a greater. From your writing, they came across as highly intelligent, charismatic, smooth, and dangerous. All the ingredients necessary for a Harlequin romance hero.
However, what broke the spell for me was you stating that all greaters are sociopaths/psychopaths.
I love this article but I believe it romanticizes a greater. It does not point out how incredibly malignant they are. Yes, you have written about the malignancy often. But I believe that this particular school of narc needs a caution sign next to it – stating that they have more than just NPD. They are sociopaths/psychopaths.
I think that the definition of love cannot be objective and that it is sort of ellusive. What I call “love” may not be love for somebody else, narcissist or not. You say , for example, that you cannot feel it and that what you felt for A. was a kind of infatuation. Well, what I have felt for Th. (one of my long, strong stories) could have been an infatuation as well, yet I called it “love”, because that is the way I, personally, define it. What makes narcissists really different is, I believe, is their other main characteristic, their inability for empathy. Although I have many narcissistic traits, as I have understood from your writings, I cannot hurt others so easily and I just won’t do it (unless I feel it is fair). Just some thoughts-you always make me think, which is precious to me.
M, your comment got me thinking. In the movie Fiddler on the Roof, Tevye and Golda sing a song, “Do You Love Me?” In the end they decide they must love each other bc they’d put up with each other for 25 years.
There are many different types of love. Despite his having no empathy my exhusband and I have been putting up with each other for 44 years. My view on this is he does love me as much as he is able. God knows there is no longer any infatuation or physical attraction, but there is vested self-interest. My existence and presence in his life are important to him. He enjoys my company and conversation. If I need something fixed or done, he will see that it is taken care of. When I die, he will mourn my loss.
Given his limitations as a narcissist, he’s doing about as good as he can do. He is not able to FEEL love and he knows this, but he has made the intellectual choice to SHOW love to me in his conscious choices the best he can. Is this totally calculated and for his own benefit? Yes. Is it a type of love? I say yes as well.
Narcissists will never feel love like we do, but if they’re smart enough and have the desire to, they can choose to demonstrate a type of love to us thru their behavior.
I agree with you that if they cannot truly love because they are unable to truly bond or trust, they may still find a person they can connect with that allows that infatuation and affection to maintain if they are self aware enough to recognize they want to keep that person in their life. The infatuation and affection may be the extent of the depth for those kinds of feelings and for them that is as close to love as it can get. If only they could learn to trust the loyalty of the partner with their unwavering presence and keep the malice part out of it, just maybe co-existing side by side can ride out a long time.
PS HG, I have to thank you for your book Revenge. I learned that it was time to let go of the hope that anything I did would ever make him suffer as much as I have, or any at all. I’m set free of that obsession, and I am grateful beyond what I can express.
If a narc who has the intelligence, education, money etc. but lacks a sizable social circle, and still maintains a few sources of supply, would that qualify them as a lower Greater?
Possibly, but based on other information as well you might be dealing with an Upper Lesser or an Upper Mid-Ranger.
Thank you for the reply HG. There seems to be something anti-social about this Narc (late 30’s). He has very very few guy friends …works from home by choice. It dawned on me he has zero college friends either. Very smart, charming, “seems” emotionally attuned. Always looking for new supply though. When I escaped, it was your site that helped me put the puzzle together. Thank you again.
Fascinating read. Have you ever discussed your views with other Greater narcs? Do you share war tales, warn each other? Have you met an empath you didn’t want to or couldn’t game? Don’t mean to pry but am curious. Also have you ever consulted a psychic \tarot reader, and if so, what was that like?
Thank you. I share views of the world, the peasants, the lumpenproletrariat with others of my kind yes.
No, all empaths are welcomed.
No I have not.
Oh that’s him alright!
1.Charm, eloquence…check!
2. Super hero energy levels, yes. Inhumane even!
3.”Concentrated vitriol” Discarded me “guillotine” style. In one swift move my head rolled over …
4. Attention whore.
5. Fully aware and proud of it. Confessed with a smirk he enjoyed ignoring my texts for days.
6. Glamorous job, brilliant.
List goes on… but finally…there’s hope….😎
100. “Hoovers harder” you say?
Goody! Bring it on!
I’ll match his fake interest with fake fuel to build him up.
Then I”ll add a back handed compliment by triangulating him with you, HG.
The battle of the Greaters!
How deeply will that sting him, being compared to?
I’m going for a “Lorena Bobbitt” psychological effect type here.
ballerina9
I do that… but greater narcs do not care.. they can read us whatever tactict we use.
But i have fun when i try to be like him..
☺
Oh, hahaha I did that. oops. Told him I stumbled on a blog of someone like him who explains it all, “but sorry to say it, you are a rookie compared to him.” Guess I was triangulating, huh?
sarabella, your narc really said HG is a rookie. that means your narc admits he is a narc and hes bad real bad.
no, you misread. other way around. I said he is a rookie. He admited the rest about being a predator etc. I triangulated him with HG about not being better at the manipulations, etc
I am telling him now almost every time i see him , who i think he is..
and depending on how i manipulate the coversation, if he see some advantage for himself, he would say:
” I suppose i might have some of those traits”..
If i get longwinded about it and hinting negativily he would deliberatly show me to be careful with some intimidating outburst that i am igniting his fury.. to shut me up…
plus he knows that instinctively i am triangulating him with HG.
He hates that, i think..
🙂
Never work. All yoy efforts will translate to fuel
HG, that is too easy. You combine their behaviour, their manipulation tactics with a certain social status. You can find the behaviour of the lesser also in the upper class. We had a chief physician, whose wife each second month was green and blue and she found herself in a women`s refuge. It was a well known “secret.” The manipulative intelligence /the developed tactics do not necessarily corresponded with their education or their status. I could tell you much more examples of that kind. Look at Picasso, he was a great narcissistic psychopath. He used to beat his women. He used to betray his friends. Read about him. He used manipulative tactics and primitive physical violence ! Highly manipulative and primitive at the same time. Two of his wives committed suicide after his death, one of his grandsons committed suicide, his own son died very early …. Read about him! Look at the painting “Guernica” You will find signs of his grandiosity and his god-like view of himself in it.
Looks like we’ll never win against this kind …. I wait in hope HG for a time you educate us how to really hurt them … is it ever possible !?
I already have, in the book Revenge, but it is hard versus the Greater and not for everybody.
How are you HG?
Lol my imagery of going against a greater, I am in need of a nap now!
No matter what “trouble” he found himself in, my ex-greater always came out smelling like a rose. He always will. He makes sure of it. I’ve read your book Revenge. After he told me that he would lie awake at night for FIFTEEN YEARS planning how to hurt me the next day, I realized that there is no way I will ever truly hurt him. There is no revenge. There is only me, my escape and my continued efforts to remain free. And my hope that his new primary source keeps him occupied.
HG I loved the book Revenge. First book I read of yours after finding you. But even after feeling empowered after reading it I realized that any revenge to be gained will be brief and disappear like vapor. The narc will twist it to suit their belief in every circumstance. I ache for revenge but also know that ache is part of what keeps me entangled. Best to spend all that energy focusing on remission or better yet removing the disease entirely.
HG, I love the way you write. When I was reading one of your works of art to my adult son (trying to help him understand that his wife might be a female narc), he said, “Mom! You may as well be reading porno!’. I don’t care what he thinks and I still read everything you write. It’s simply genius. Are you an attorney or a stockbroker?
Thank you CC. No, I am neither of those professions.
I say You have a background in forensic and/or investigative psychology
Thank you Ms Brown, but I don’t.
Cyber security companies search far and wide for the most notorious hackers and then they hire them. It takes a devious and brilliant mind to be good in those areas.
so you deny being a “Profiler”?
As a profession, I indeed deny.
Im sure I speak for many others (here), would hope you would reveal at some point, your profession. Inquiring minds need to know. However, I do understand and respect your need to keep it private. I admit, I am crazy curious though 🤔
Cc
I think HG is a teacher.
I love your type of torture, lol.
The narc at work is vice president of a religious organization. He told me his greatest gift is being a servant. He gives money to people in need. At one time, I wanted to have my way with him and then throw him in the garbage. I am so glad the “relationship” never got that far.
“Mine” was a strange mix of all of them. I really can’t put him in one over the other. He is aware he is a predator, a shark. He knows he lies and is a “player”. He knows he is an actor. He knows he is fake. He knows he needs people for energy. He also feels like he falls into the category of the lesser and mid in his impulsive, careless, volatile reactions.
Sarabella,
Agree that they are often a mix, and one or the other surfaces depending on the situation and their need.
HG
i know that this question is out of the blue and out of context and it may sound idiotic but:
can a narcissist ever fall in love truly,
or that its unlikely?
No.
HG! Wasn’t it love you felt for a girl named Amanda when you were 17 years old? You talk about this on one of your articles..and the way it affected your life when she moved abroad and you could not find her again depite you looking for her for decades…wasn’ t that love as you described it?
I have come to realise that it is an infatuation as I have learned more about the way I regard the concept of love.
According to you: what is the main difference between infatuation and the concept of love “we” have?
Attachment.
Thank you again for your answer HG.
😮
i do not believe it- i think he/she can, but then the narc traits wrecks everything …
Magnificent description. Take whatever fuel you need from this, HG.
Thank you.
This HG. Was my life.
Have you consulted with another greater?
Do you know any other greater?
What happens when two greater narcs collide?
No.
Several.
Wait for the article.
Did the other Greaters know you as such? Did you ever talk to another like you? That would be an interesting show. Like massive mental chess.
This sounds interesting. Is the article finished? Title?
It is in hand Amaria.
😂😂😂😂
emotion detective..
world war 3 ?
Interestingly enough this really pissed me off because this was my narc. I want to hold an enormous magnifying glass over him in the summer and fry him like a bug. That would be a slow enough death I think. I guess I thought the mid-ranger was funny because that wasn’t how mine acted.
Feel the same reading this. Angry. Scum comes to mind thinking about the Narchole.