The Narcissistic Truths – No. 12
248 thoughts on “The Narcissistic Truths – No. 12”
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HG
you say that greater narcissist know who they are.
1) How do they come to know that they are narcissists ?
2) How do they “feel” about the knowing?
3) Will they always deny it to others?
4) Could there be some greater narcissist that do not know?
5) If no, why not?
Criticism as an empath is also crippling
Wow sad picture so my question HG as a Narc to adults revisit this time of childhood pain and do they understand that is why they are narcs
Criticism causes a return to the sensation of the childhood pain. Lesser and Mid Range Narcissists do not know what they are. Greaters know but may not know it is likely to be linked to childhood.
Thank you
HG: so what happens when you are aware of that in the very moment when you feel criticized?
And what do you think would happen, if the person criticizing you didn’t intend to criticize you and send you back to childhood feelings but becomes aware of that, and offers to take it back and talk to you about what just happened? And would ask you to find an alternative way to express the effect of his/her words? Or even address that triggered pain?
Question for the community…. and HG.
How do you answer a question by your ex narc you are coparenting with when he asks a question you know he already knows the answer to?
Ie: the kids got baptized without him on my parenting time last minute spontaneously. He found out which i knew he would eventually and he’s asking me “did the kids get baptized recently?”
He wouldn’t be asking me if he didn’t already know they did. So how do i answer it knowing hes trying to trap me, incriminate me and use my words and actions against me?
Thank you in advance! 🙂
Ps. I knew i would “get in trouble” for this act and in a normal world it would be wonderful for the other parent to be there. But he is incapable of truly appreciating the event amt would only ruin it in some way so it happened the way it did without me telling him. In a normal world i would feel bad for him but this is anthing but a normal world.
I kinda of knew what i was getting in to when i did this but weighing the consequences…. i felt to enjoy this event, me and my kids without him and deal with the wrath later was the better option.
SVR,
Regarding normal. The four major relationships I have had have only been with narcissists (as I have now discovered). So “normal” to me is not normal. A “normal” guy always seems to be so boring…
I understand totally where you are coming from. Indeed it can be boring BUT (HG fav word Empaths use) that is part of the recovery process. Making that statement you made means to me that you are still involved in the dance. This also means that in a way the empath is like the narc (don’t want to change) so for me that is accepting abuse. Personally I value myself much more than to be subjected to a horror of a person who lies as it breaths, sleeps with anything that gives fuel and takes no responsibility. I would suggest you look deep into yourself and find that inner child and ask her what is wrong, that way you can actually get what you deserve and not accept the predators. A real man can give you what you ask and need. Just communicate with them and for once you can TRUST and LOVE which beats any narc any day. Good luck whatever your decision. The narc I knew said “you had a choice”, how true (now that was not a lie)
SVR
Do you have a real man in your life now?
Yes
Thanks for your response SVR. I do appreciate it. No, I don’t want to be mistreated by a narc anymore and I’m definitely not accepting of abuse. I didn’t and don’t deserve it. I am learning and can now understand and intellectualize the why and how. Perhaps I’ll meet a “real” man and will be better able to recognize him. 🙂 Just getting used to normal since I never experienced it in any of my long term relationships.
Strongerwendy
I hear you on the boring. Why do the choices always seem to be either mind numbingly boring or abusive? Where are these Unicorns in the middle? Most start out exciting and turn boring pretty quickly. Maybe the answer is to not need one permanently in your life, but rather stay to yourself and just interact when you feel the need. Society just does not seem to accept that though. They always want you paired and you are suspect if you are not.
I agree with you, that the lessers are not intelligent enough. I am not sure about the mid-range. I saw some hints that they know that they are different and not normal in a common sense. Just a flickering of some recognition then quickly denied. I had to be very stubborn to press that “confession” out of them.Sometimes my narc himself “felt” that something was wrong, when he projected his feelings onto others. He could not realise what it was. I saw it because for a moment he stopped talking and started thinking…. Then he went on as usual.
HG, why are you so sure that only the greater know what they are?
Years of interactions and observation with all of the schools.
Indy
Lmao. Same not sane. Never been accused of that.
I liked how you first wrote it. Hahahah…
HG
Did you have empath and a narc? Or a narc and normal combo? Both narcs? Still worried about my child. What mother wouldn’t be on high alert after seeing that photo.😱! I know my case is odd coming from 2 loving parents but having 1 child empath and the other a narc. So I guess grasping this is harder for those who had love. My sister was equally loved. She was the never left out unless it was her choice. Same birthday parties, we always had equal Christmas presents and we took turns selecting our favorite snacks/tv shows. One piece of cake left my mom carefully cut into equal pieces so nobody got the shaft. If one got new shoes because needed the other got a pair even if not needed. I did do more with my Dad only because I was a Tom boy. I loved race cars, fishing and spending time in the woods. She didn’t enjoy going outside but was always invited. Thanks for helping me sort this out. I worry about my daughter day and night. I was warned by two of her psychiatrist to monitor and correct learned behavior. The 2nd told me she does have empathy but shows signs of learned behavior. I also have seen this child go into such rage. Scary rage for a child. I have seen eyes go cold when other children in her “eyes bullied” her. Did you have siblings? If so did they turn out like you? I know I am needy and annoying but this pick consumed, overwhelmed and scared me slightly. Then they word… This is how it started! A mothers nightmare depicted in one meme!
I still carry that hungry child with me, until today. She is still there. I look at old pictures of her, of little M., and I feel a bit sad, because I know what her future was. Amazing at times, amazingly painful at others. So many losses. Anyway. I don’t feel sorry for you, HG. I would never do that to you. I think you are a strong man, not only because of the power you receive from others, but mainly from within. I believe you know it by now. Not trying to sound sweet here, I mean it.
Thank you M.
Those are children?!!!
I thought they were Supermodels on a no carb day.
Ha ha! Just arrived home from a long flight and needed a laugh. Good night.
Strongerwendy
Sleep is always better on a laugh. Hope you slept well and welcome home.
So how does it look when it ends?
For an empathic individual: road to freedom. Keep on the path and the rewards are huge. Not sure if this what you meant but my interpretation.
That was meant for HG at the illustration. I know it’s sometimes hard to figure out what people say and where it belongs
This picture does hurt, perhaps because we can all see ourselves in there(narcissists, addicts, co-dependents, those with bpd, women who “love too much”, etc.). It reminds me of the idea from Chinese Buddhism, the Realm of the Hungry Ghosts. The realm of existence of deep suffering. Some have applied it to those who suffer from all types of addictions, including relationship addictions. This aching emptiness that craves to be filled. It started young for all of us…..we crave to be seen, loved and heard. To be filled by another when only ourselves can do it.
Unfortunately, no matter how hard I try, the notion of complete and total self-love sustaining yourself first before someone else can, just escapes me. I’m self aware enough to know that it goes back to how I was raised and my very strict Catholic upbringing instilled that “God created two, so they shall become one in Christ”, deters me somehow from breaking past that. I feel a void. I feel incomplete. It has made me shun religion as an adult and only take my daughter to church for C&E (Christmas & Easter) with my family to ensure she isn’t programmed the way I was.
Sorry, I’m just having a frustrating day feeling roadblocked. I logically hear the words but it just doesn’t get absorbed “in” my brain the right way. lol
Keep focused. Remember bad days are allowed, it’s part of healing so no beating yourself up. Rest and tomorrow is another day. You survived the day which after all that’s happened is amazing. Keep strong. Rooting for you. Thank you for all you share on here. It helps.
Hello SVR, Well if I said something that helped you, I am very grateful for that. Thank you so much for the pep talk. I’m rooting for you as well and always follow your comments with great interest. You add a lot of value here.
Empaths love pep talks 😂😂
Remember that saying be kind to yourself and practice it as I am sure you have preached it. Yes your contribution is valuable to me and I do like to comment on here as I am just about recovered after a lot of hard work. Life is sweet and never ever go backwards as it’s not got anything good to give you. Thank you for your kind words. Hope today has been better. Maybe we should start an empath blog, but wait don’t think I know as much as HG about our kind. He is something else (blowing your trumpet=a little fuel) 😄
Look at the inner child. That’s where I found my answers.
Life was intended for relationship with a real, loving living God. It is a win -win deal.
I agree that is possible. I have my own private relationship with God. It’s just not dictated to me any longer by a Priest who cannot marry, have a relationship or raise children but yet instruct me how to lead my life.
Best way. Mans way is not always Gods way.
Gods way is best though. Bible has so much wisdom and gems of life in there. It’s a good teaching tool for life and how to live abundantly.
Hi MLA,
No need for being sorry at all. Most of us of us here on this blog struggle with this. I still do too, though I’ve gotten better. You see it when you stand up for yourself and no longer remain in unhealthy relationships and take time to heal before getting involved wth another person. You see it grow when you draw and keep boundaries. I still yearn for a partner to share my life with though I will not sacrifice the woman I am for that goal. That is how I know I’m healing toward this self love. I was raised in a strict Catholic home too, that dogma is hard to reprogram, I get you!! And, I sense you are a very strong woman that is on that path of growth. Don’t strive for perfection, just progression. That’s all we all can do. We are in the same boat sweety ((hugs)).
I did the same with my son, I kept him out of the church to protect him too.
I chuckled at your closing line that you kept your son out of church to protect him too. Such irony isn’t it? lol Is that Dogma re-programmable? My mother’s answer to any problem is to pray to whatever Patron Saint has that cause, say a Novena and go light candles at the church… God bless her, I love her, but I realized when I left home I needed waaaay better coping skills.
I truly adore the company I am with in this same boat. I appreciate very much the time and thought you took to respond.
Oh, and it still escaped me to get through those last two chapters in “Science of Evil”. Ridiculous how long it’s taking me to finish that but I was pretty busy this weekend. I haven’t forgotten to respond to you on that either!! Hugs back!
Hi MLA,
I do think that dogma can be lessened, though it is in there. My father said to me during a fight with him about the Church “You were born a Catholic, you will die a Catholic” in his deep baritone military voice. Little did I know then that he was right. I still feel it in me. Even my son, who was not raised in the Church (and this is irony) he got a tattoo of the rosary. I told him, “you have to earn that tattoo, with time on your knees and prayers memorized.” He looked at me like I had four heads. It was my father speaking through me from the grave LOL
Well, I think we keep what works for us and we can work on what doesn’t 🙂 My spirituality is like a quilt. I keep pieces here and there and stitch them together. I light candles, incense, and cry when in a beautiful cathedral. I bless myself with water when I enter. And, I do not believe the Pope is infallible, that women are inferior, etc. So many stories. I had a boyfriend about 15 years ago come to church with me and my mother (per her request) and he put the communion in his pocket for later!!!! I almost died laughing and in a little horror too…hahahaha….and I was/am an agnostic and I still feel that…you don’t pocket Jesus! LOL
Hugssss
Indy, my faith is a patchwork quilt of many religions as well. I actually became a Catholic bc it was the most openminded, tolerant church in my area! I think if you’re a convert after Vatican 2, the experience is very different from being raised Catholic.
My husband gave me the choice of raising our kids vegetarians or Christians and I opted for Christians. Ha, ha! They had my catholic (little “c”) influence to keep them openminded. The problem I see in many Catholics and most religions is believing that truth is a constant, not a fluid that changes constantly with your reality.
Hahahaha….vegetarian or Christian. You are so correct. The last time I went to a Catholic church, it was about 10 years ago and I was floored at the fact that they allowed people to receive communion without confession. I grew up in a Roman Catholic Church in New England in an Irish American home. Lord lord lord….I was sooo glad to hear the new pope and his views. You are in TN, right? I believe you are probably correct on the Catholic Church being the most tolerant in your area! In Vermont in the 80’s, it was the Baptist and UU churches as being more tolerant. LOL. (A swap with the south, where the Baptists will kick your booty).
BTW, I tried to indoctrinate my son in vegetarianism when he was young, though my parents would sneak him bacon and chicken. One day, while I was feeding him some soy based chicken nugget (he was 4 at the time), he said, “Mom, I want meat with a bone!” I nearly died! I called my parents immediately…the confessed. LOL My son has been a carnevorse ever since.
KY Indy. I was raised in the Church of Christ, which was ludicrously strict and closed minded in the 60’s n 70’s (I’m told they’ve lightened up since then). Sins included: drinking, dancing and playing musical instruments in church. They believed only their interpretation of scripture was correct and anyone who disagreed with them was going to hell, i.e. any other type of church.
I remember one Sunday when I was about 14 and the preacher said, “There can only be one correct way to worship the Lord just like 2 + 2 can only equal 4.” I didn’t hear anything else he said bc of
a litany running through my mind of the endless combinations of numbers, both positive and negative, that you could put on the left side of an equation that would equal 4. From my perspective, he totally proved the opposite of what he intended!! That was the beginning of the end of the C of C for me!
And once I left the church, I could no longer set foot in the door. I might “lead the young into sin.” That was a shame bc they had the most phenomenal music! Since they believed instrumental music was a sin, everyone was taught to sing in 4-part harmony. Just imagine it – 500 people all singing in 4-part harmony! I really miss that. 😐
Nooo, you don’t pocket Jesus! lol My mouth dropped open reading that. Just a reflex!! I’m sure I heard that too, that I will die a Catholic.
Oh and don’t get me started on praying to the Saints. The more they suffered and endured, the more noble and holier they became. I get it to a point but when you take a step away, it sends the message of enduring all kinds of hardships that you may not recognize as abuse because you’re suffering it up for your sins. If you were unhappy about something, it’s because you had a sin you were being punished for.
Girl, I was praying for purgatory as I KNEW heaven wouldn’t take me. My mother loved those saints too. When she passed on, I had a collection of 80 angel statues and 20 something saint candles. Medals, scapulas…man. And you are so right, I think some of us Catholics were primed for abuse because of this culture of guilt and imperfection. Don’t get me started on all the things I was told was a sin…and what I had to confess. I was honest to a fault, so those confessions were LONG!!! LOL
Very true. Only we can do it but that is if we are in the know. All my life I have been the helper and it got to a stage where I thought do I have it written on my head ‘ got a problem come share it and I will help you’. I was becoming alert to this feeling only 3 years ago and still had no idea it was me seeking these kind to feel valued, needed myself. It took my experience at the same time with 2 narcs (now keep it clean lol, a female friend with extensive problems (if they were even true) and a male arse hole (problems also but main one was he was breathing) for me to realise that I played a part in this dance. So as a child I must have chose the non narc route but I cannot remember it. Is that right HG? As I have said before I do not regret any of this experience but now I see my parents are narcs and that I am not worthless anymore. I am me, well I am finding me. I no longer look for validation from my mother or outside of self. Anyone else with similar experience?
Indy, I haven’t come across that idea for years -the realm of the hungry ghosts. I’m going to have to read about it again. I remember dismissing it as stupid when I read about it previously, but then my idea of truth was very literal. With maturity and (hopefully) wisdom I realize now that the truths in Tibetan and Chinese Buddhism are metaphorical. Maybe this concept can help me better understand myself. Thanks for the insight!
Hi Windstorm,
Yes, with age many things can be appreciated from a renewed perspective. I take it as definitely symbolic and it can be interpreted in so many ways. Some may take it totally differently than I shared above, and that’s what makes these writings so cool. The stories are multifaceted in a way, depending on where you shine the light of your attention. I’m not Buddhist by practice though I really appreciate some of the writings of Tibetan Buddhism and other faiths. I’d love to hear your take on it after you reread it.
😊. Will do, Indy!
Sorry HG I should clarify, I meant a Greater rather than you specifically. Thank you.
My Narc sister used to compete with me as to who had the worse childhood. I am quite ok with her winning that one. In fact she must at some level have suffered more.
One of my favourite scenes <3
https://youtu.be/fjfGvugxGUg
"I pray to Mr. Daumer this sheet with kindness and will to read. Days ago I had sown my name in full with the crescent seedlings. It had come all very well. He had given me such a great joy that now I can not even describe it.
And yesterday, coming back from the boat ride I saw that somebody had entered the garden and completely trampled my name. So I cried, for a long time. But I still want to sow my name."
HG, can you imagine to have no feelings? I ask that, because you always seem to be proud to have some feelings. It is only a question, because my father seemed to feel no feelings at all. He was never very angry, sad, joyful, happy, anxious,jealous, cheerful and so on. It is different to explain. If someone asked him: “How do you feel?”, he always said: “Ok.” I never heard : I am sad, I am angry, I am… .
That was a strange situation. He was not able to love some one or he could not show. All his feelings seemed to be dimmed. He was not depressive. He was a total rational and honest person. (Even that can hurt hard!) No manipulation at all. He appeared like a well functioning computer. Rational 1-0.
I cannot because of the churning fury and malevolence which exists.
The photo illustrates all the little children born without the ability to feel emotions.
#emptyeggs
I am actually starting to wonder the opposite..
they might have an enhanced emotional instinct, which happens to be different from our “perceptions” of feelings.
Interesting take. But i dont believe its accurate.
In the words of Charles Barkley…i may be wrong, but i doubt it.
https://youtu.be/npj4EHzoeBQ
For variety…. here’s another version of Charles Barkley, ” i may be wrong but i doubt it”
🙂
https://youtu.be/PyySYIKgn3c
I have thoroughly confused myself here….replied to too many threads too late last night! I did mean to reference this post from Angelic afterall HG…specifically linked to mine still in moderation about my baby son being held by a friend – who we didn’t at the time know was an alcoholic – and screaming until he was back safe in my arms again.
You’ve only posted half my response though which means it doesn’t make sense….You’ve done that a couple of times with me….can you let me know why as I don’t get it. If you didn’t approve of my comment then why post half of it at all, or is that how you let us know you don’t approve??
Not at all, it means I may have not picked up on it being stated in two sections and one part has been moderated and the other has not. That is all there is to it. Perhaps aim to include it all in one post!
I had included it all in one post, the only separate bit was me correcting myself (incorrectly) on who I was referencing….if that makes sense.
I think what I’ll aim to do is not look at your site or reply to threads late at night when I should be sleeping instead.
Ha ha, fair enough. They will appear in due course.
Super HG, thank you. Just as well someone round here can keep their head when all about them are losing theirs right? 😂
Indeed, just so long as that fury is not ignited!
Fair enough
if any person do not know that his/her behaviour is hurtful .. then it is difficult to change gear..
But eventually soon or later when hurt people bring the hurtful behaviour to the light.. then is when the narcissist should try to change..
That applies to narcissists or not.
When we are told repeatedly that some actions are hurtful.. that is when we all should take it seriously and seek for changes.
The problem actually, i think , it is that in society nowadays such hurtful narcissistic behaviour it is mostly accepted.
It’s a possibility.
I ponder over one thing, over and over. Why is it when HG said to his doctors: I don’t feel empathy, I don’t feel love, I can’t cry, I’m unable to feel joy..
dint that give the doctors a pause? Not even a little bit?
Instead they tried to force the tears out of him.
It gave no one a pause.
Because it’s kinda important. It’s kinda overlooked, it’s kinda dismissed in the entire personality disorder theory.
Am I the only one it gives a pause?
We only have HG’s perspective of how the sessions go and how he related to them (understandably) . Whose to say both doctors did not? Their version may be that they are dealing with a very defiant, stubborn patient always testing them.
That is a fair point but I convey the accuracy of what is said during the sessions (I record them) and my own view of what was going on is written later.
Yes, you parroted what I said that what is written later on is from your perspective. You may also feel wounded and / or criticized by something one of the doctors asked or said, even when listening back to the recording although the intent may not have been for that on the side of the doctor. We will never know that. That is what happens with many of your personal relationships / friendships etc. (feeling wounded by something from your perspective that was a criticism but from theirs was not intended that way at all.)
Clarece
That is a very good point. He can only tell us from his perspective so that is all we know. I believe what he tells us is what he sees, but he admits they see things like criticism when it is not there. It would be interesting to hear the Doctors theories and findings but I will still default to what he tells me and sort through that myself.
Absolutely! I completely trust that HG is being honest about his exchanges with the doctors to us. I’m not questioning that at all. It’s his version from his perspective tied in with his life experiences and views of people.
All the stories I’ve shared about JN, if he were to come on here, he’d report a completely different angle of me probably being an obsessive, stalking, drunk with jealousy conspiracy theorist. Somewhere in the middle is the truth (leaning to mine more, lol)
Clarece
Made me laugh. His side did seem to roll off your tongue pretty quickly…..
I heard somewhere the definition of stalking is just two people taking a walk, only one is not aware.
Whats that on your cheek……..looks like glitter…….
It’s the mark of narc, a symbol to our brethren.
HG
Ah, the mark of narc. A tiny mirror and not glitter.
Well…he smeared me, right to me, so I know good and GD well what he would spin here if given the chance. lol
Clarence, this is because there are no further statements about the lack of positive emotions in the entire NPD theory. It ends at no empathy, no remorse, no tears. So let’s make him cry in therapy..
Nobody asks the question why, nobody.
If it gave anyone a pause, there would be further inquiry into this, but there isn’t because first, emotions are dismissed as anything serious, and second they don’t fit into the false personality disorder theory.
As it turns out, emotions are central to understanding narcissism. Without them, you don’t understand the concept of fuel, the driving force behind all narcissist actions, and I mean all. It is evidence that the lack of emotions is central to the disorder, not a personality.
Too vague!!
Here is the problem. it is either a family generational line thing in the DNA or entire whole thing about 2 narcs rarely hooking up because of bad fuel is blown. If you have 1 narc parent and 1 empath parent how does the child end up like above? The empath lays her life down for child over compensating for the abusive parent. Protecting the child by giving her life. Teaching survial skills to the child.
Further over thought, is learned behavior as I was warned to watch my child for that after 2 psychiatrist had dealing with the father. Things can be fixed, re taught, in essence not a true narc but behavior of one learned. So then you have 2 types of narcs in the world. A true DNA narc born empty and the learned behavior Narc that could learn normal behavior just as they learned the Narc behavior. Very confusing post. too vague!!! Dyslexic typing today due to lack of sleep as I couldn’t unsee the image.
I don’t know a good word combation to put in search bar to understand. Most things I can try a few word combo’s in the search tool to research myself before becoming annoying by asking questions. I tried to research myself but nothing popped.
I only see it from a different angle. I do not rely on the %, but there are no others. I hope, my last sentence will not come true and many of them ” seize the power.”
I am in the discovery process of being an empath and and being on again off again since I was 16, I am almost 35 now. About five years ago my disillusionment began. But that part is complete, which is why I see picture this very cleary for what it truly is. Nail I the head to someone for the abandoned children with no eyes, hence no soul. He knew one of us would pick up. And he also knew that at least a couple of us, hopefully more, would not just interpret the picture as his childhood “pain” resulting in who he has become. Bullshit, he feels no real pain, it is only superficial pain to his ego. How dare his parents treat him so badly? Him? Were they too blind to see his magnificent glory? Or jealous of him perhaps? Nope they were just run of the mill neglectful, emotionally unavailable yet still emotionally abusive, somewhat physically abusive dickhead parents. Created by a previous generation of dickhead parents. And here is Crown Prince Dickhead. Or as he sees himself in all his grandiosity, the higher narc. Because he is higher functioning han lower narcs. Narcissist come from all backgrounds and intelligence levels, he just happens to have higher intelligence than the other members of his subgroup, also referred to in general terms as you dime a dozen asshole. He created the categories, they are definitely not DSM. And he created them in a pitiful attempt to certify his grandiosity. He has labeled himself higher, wow. You are the highest functioning asshole a standard of group of five. He isn’t higher than anything. They still aren’t functioning correctly. He’s broken and he can never be fixed. Are you reading this Narc Boy? Because now I am at the final reveal and grand finale, a little of that empath honesty you despise so much. . Anybody who makes any sort of comment, bedsides an honest and unemotional exposure such as this.is nothing more than his third level narcissistic supply source. This entire site, althugh insightful, is nothing more than empath trap and dedication to his grandiosity. Look at it. He is a narcissist, who by his own admission, is desperate for any attention and a master at manipulation, especially with women exactly like us. And he creates a website dedicated to his life and his disorder. He doesn’t post any of this to help anybody? To believe that at all is either delusional or reveals that you don’t understand what NPD actually is. Because the only thing even slightly distinguishable between him and his peers is his slightly above average intelligence (that one got you didn’t it Narc Boy? He believes himself a genius despite standardized tests and online IQ tests that have shown him to be just above average). But he has shown creativity in catching his prey. He creatdd a website built just for us and all about him. I don’t think you should av I’d the sight at all. Instead devour it, all of it. So you can become a stringer, wiser empath. I did. Because despite the fact that he considers all of us empaths lowly and beneath him since we deal in “feelings”. Apparently he has only dealt with “lower level” empaths. Probably the most desperate and needy of our kind, below his intelligence, nonexistent or neglectful family, few if any friends. He doesn’t go after the best of me best, although he wants to. Very badly and this causes cognitive dissonance for a moment. Because he as longs for “higher level” empaths, like me, who match or exceed his intelligence, and have adjusted themselves to live according my despite a lack a family foundation or friends. We are the trophy prize. Because we are full of identity and emotion for him to steal. But he knows he could never attain us. We are out of his league in so many ways. He never gets to interact with his most coveted target. Unless he posts on this site and replies to the comments. Be sure he goes through all the effort and energy of doing this site, not only as a steady third level supply source, but also as way to deal with higher empaths that he could never siphon from in the concrete reality. And let that sink in. You all fawn all over him, showering him with his Narcissist supply just as he planned. And it’s one of his favorite supplies to steal, pity over his poor childhood, admiration that he acknowledges he is a narcissist, and his most favorite, hope. You still have hope in him. As you read this and realize it is true and you have been siphoned by yet another narc, you have two options, be like him, and create your own distorted reality by rationalizing and justifying your behavior. Yes. He was treated in abhorrent manner. He was neglected by his caregivers when he needed care most. We were too. That is how an empath and a narcissist are both created. Traumatic, abusive, neglectful childhoods. But we are polar opposites. Why is that? Because when you and I were treated so badly by the ones we live most, we CHOOSE to rise above it, and we have since birth. Over and over again we will be forced to forgive those who have had us and taken advantage of us. And sometimes we want to give in this jaded world. Not like him, but not like us. That is the moment of choice. He is given opportunies exactly like that every single day also. He CHOOSES to do the wrong thing. Now that I’m done let me give you a review. As for your kind, you are not “higher level”. I know your kind better than I know my own. You are all so easy to understand, because you chose to pack the compkexity of most of those pesky human emotions. And on a 1-10 scale you are merely a four. Lose your big head about this website. You gloat in it every single night don’t you? You’re not a genius or even that clever for doing it. What it actually is, is empathy, moron. You’ve been soiled! Because in order to catch prey you must lay a trap. All he did was use a different kind of bait than most in order to catch as many as he could before esomebod caught on. I don’t see how he hasn’t been exposed before this. Or have you Narc Boy? And maybe you deleted it? Because you not only will it foil your scheme, it will also remind you how blatantly simple and pathetic you really are.
Oh boy, this’ll stir things up…
They come along every so often SW!
What do you mean by “they”? I just see a different opinion?
That was a question for you, HG. Seriously, what do you mean by ‘they’, I don’t quite understand?
Context?
Context of this thread? You stating that ‘they’ came along ever so often, after someone posted a controversial, critical comment on your blog? Who is ‘they’?
The context of my other question you just posted without answering was your article. 😉
They being individuals who launch into an attack against readers and me based on their own innate prejudice rather than actually understanding the dynamic.
Thank you. I for my part don’t feel attacked, but better understood and less attacked than by some others.
Not sure about the dynamics. But I do get annoyed by certain strongly codependent individuals who do in fact seem to think they are/understand better. My own cure for that is to stay away from these comments altogether. Therefore I do appreciate a different voice. Just my personal view.
Ava 101
IMO she is looking for a fight, at least that is the impression I have gotten from the comments I have read she has posted here and in other threads.
Being angry and venting and being angry and judgmental are two different things. And can possibly indicate more then what is being present.
Maybe I am wrong, correct me if I am HG, yet the very first comment I read said a lot.
Jenny Jones
I nodded off. So you dont like HG?
Made me laugh.
Your comment just made me laugh involuntarily while trying to drink my coffee…
I’m with you, strongerwendy. Spit soda all over my keyboard.
Jennifer-J-B
There was quite a lot there to read but that’s fine by me, not that you need my validation. I get it too.
You may well be angry but you’re allowed to be, especially if you’ve had a relationship with one or more of this type. Again, not offering validation, just saying.
I’m glad you posted this thread HG but I don’t like the whole ‘every now and then one of them comes along’ thing. It’s a bit bully-ish isn’t it?
I know I know, you’re evil and don’t care, but for the purposes of professionalism (that you say you uphold for this site’s purposes) it’s not entirely appropriate is it?
This lady doesn’t need me to stick up for her, nor am I doing so, but the reactions to her post does shed light on another aspect of empaths similarity to narcs; a whiff of blood and the pack pulls together.
I don’t want to offend any of my fellow posters here by saying that, but the “we’re all allowed to voice our own opinion” POV seems to have fallen short here doesn’t it?
Or perhaps the slant of conversation will alter as HG releases further comment……and I’ll be made to look like the one who should eat her words.
It’s entirely appropriate. Riddled with baiting and inaccuracy. My comment was polite.
You were polite HG, I know. It did get a bit personal….I wondered for a moment actually if someone you knew had found you!
I can understand why you would have thought that VFH but no, this person does not know me.
I don’t know, VFH. Considering the number of people on here, comments were very few and not that rough. Considering that we were all rather viciously attacked, it is only reasonable that some people responded. Certainly no one responded with the virulence of the original posts.
I have zero problem with what she had to say. I enjoy differing viewpoints and even think she had some valid points for Intelligent conversation or debate. Problem was she negated either of those and was reduced to white noise once she offended everyones intelligence, opinions, and right to be here to say what they like exactly as she did. At that point she sounded more like the abusers she was trying to warn us of.
I could be wrong but I interpreted HGs comment as once in awhile someone comes along and rips through like a hurricane, craps all over the place, and then leaves, never taking the time to participate with others and likely never to be seen again.
I agree with you, narcangel. For whatever reason sometimes people let their emotions blind them to how they are treating/talking to others. (Reminds me of my mother’s rant, “if you could just hear how you sound when you talk to me!” 😝). Sometimes people get so caught up in their version of truth, that they close their minds to other beliefs. I don’t personally understand this, but I’ve often seen it. It causes me pain to see someone so consumed with anger and hatred. Hopefully she has calmed now and abandoned us to our folly. 😊
I agree with your perspectives ladies (I think it was all ladies so far who replied) I hadn’t actually seen her first post but read back over them to link what you said, and it does have a different weight to it.
I do also think, off the back of your comment Windstorm ref anger/online forums, that the anonymity afforded means that sometimes people believe they can let ‘the beast’ out in an unrestricted manner. Who knows. I haven’t taken offence though which I feel is a step forwards in my slowly but surely personal boundary development! Or does it show my lack of them?? There’s that double edge again.
Here’s something to mull over VFH with regard to your comment about anonymity. I find the more aggressive comments appear on my FB page (they are still minor in proportion to all posts) and unless they are fake accounts those are not anonymous.
That’s a shame, I haven’t spent time on your FB site so unaware of that….
Probably for the best if it’s that bad; I’d fall out of my dinghy altogether and just be splashing about in the depths, squeaking something about there needing to be more kindness in the world!!
I thought of that when I first read the comments! I almost made a snarky comment about somebody being lost from FB – but I managed to stop myself.
I made a fake profile just to check out that difference in the comments a couple months ago or so (since I don’t do FB). To me it seems that the comments are of a totally different type. They seem to be more negative in several ways, not just the vitriolic rants. It’s almost like the commenters view your posts like interesting circus exhibits. They don’t talk to you as often as we do or seem to view you as a source of help in sorting out their narc relationships like we do. To be frank they don’t seem to respond to you much like they see you as a fellow human.
I should get back on FB and continue my research, but I fear it has snowballed on me! My fake profile has even been friended by strangers and the few sites I followed (to make my profile more realistic) have deluged my page with posts! Even FB itself keeps harassing me with emails about things “You may be interested…”
But that’s typical for one of my projects. There are always so many things that come up that I failed to anticipate. Keeps life from becoming boring!
Thank you for your observations. I do not engage as much on FB also purely because I do not have the time and if people send me PMs they are directed to come to the blog or to e-mail me, so I can address everything in one place. I do answer some points written on FB but I cannot address everything.
HG, you are nice to even address some comments on fb considering how busy your schedule is. Thanks again for moderating. If it were me, i would be exhausted. But you, you are made superior😉
Windstorm2
I have been back and forth a lot lately again, I wonder thou if there anger has them so blinded that all they see is a narcissist and not actually listening to the message and then condemning those that do and support HG and his work.
Even evil can bring good if one takes the blinders off and listen to respond instead of reacting and just giving the answer they have already preconceived in their mind as to what is going on.
Maybe so, Twilight. I haven’t studied long enough to really draw conclusions, but I find it disturbing to see the way people comment on HGs posts on FB. There is a lack of politeness and of consideration that I feel is due whenever we interact with each other – particularly with someone we don’t know. But maybe that is just part of the FB culture. It has always seemed to be a platform to air stream-of-consciousness thinking without regard to how your comments are perceived by others. Why I’ve never liked it.
I have spent some time there, debating on different ideas and such.
Yet when him and I separated, I saw a lot more especially with those that believe they have a righteous outlook due to their beliefs and believe they can judge and condemn with out ever truly listening to what is being said. They were not always narcissist, just closed minded.
Lol I don’t debate as often now, yet I did learn many things and enjoyed the discussions with many. Especially a man from the U.K. Not HG but another. I am a sucker for an intelligent man.
Twilight, intelligent anythings are always a blessing! Talking to intelligent men is very pleasant. I believe that is a big reason I’ve always been attracted to narcissists. They don’t hide their light under a bushel! You can easily see their level of intelligence right off. It’s usually more pleasant to talk to the men, though. Narc women seem often to see other intelligent women as some sort of threat or criticism. I feel like I have to keep watching my back around them.
Righteousness is a pet peeve of mine! I can’t stand it, yet it seems to be everywhere!! So much hurt and unhappiness in the world is caused by righteousness-for the righteous as well as those they look down on! Here where I live righteousness is considered by most to be the way to be. These people feel it is their duty to point out everyone else’s faults, so they can reform themselves. And of course they make no attempt to hide their sanctimonious smugness, that they themselves are already following the right path. Being a heretic, I just try to lay low and stay under their radar. But it is a constant irritant.
It must be something deeply ingrained in the human psyche to believe that your opinions are better than anyone else’s. Probably ties in with the survival instincts. But it certainly creates a lot of ill will and suffering.
Windstorm2
I know that is the reason I am attracted to them.
Yes I have found the women seem to be threaten more by another intelligent women. At least from my experience with them.
Righteousness does seem to be prevalent and taken out of context.
Those that proclaim to be religious, get me. To many are “religious ” and not “spiritual” big difference. One is to make you “feel” good the other brings change within you.
Here is another saying I go with
Lies come all dressed up for the party 🎉
Truth walks in naked
Never heard that saying, Twilight, but it’s a good one. 😊
Butt ass naked, lumps and all ! Love it twilight, I’ve never heard that saying either! Have y’ all heard the difference between nekked and naked? I think it’s a southern thing. 😂
Please enlighten me Indy. I thought “nekked” was just how it’s pronounced! 😝
Hi Windstorm and Twilight,
So, in Georgia, “Naked” is when you do not have clothes on. “Nekked” is when you are doing something naughty with no clothes on. Had a born and raised Southern ex explain this one to me, had to pass on. LOL
Had to think about that one, Indy. I suppose it is the same here. But whenever one refers to public nudity, it has a naughty connotation. As in, “Look at that youngun! Nekked as a jay-bird!”
Hi Windstom,
True!!! LOL I figured KY had a similar phrasing as GA. I am still learning “Southern”, after 20 years. LOL
Lol butt ass naked, damn straight!
No I haven’t heard that one. So I googled it and found a band that goes by that name. Interesting music
VFH, I agree.
I find it refreshing to read a different view for a change. ‘Built for empaths’ is correct.
I also get the point in regard to real empaths, also about people believing they are better, and about differing levels of empaths.
I just wonder what could even be worse than a narcissistic sociopath?
The mind boggles! Is this another strain we need to shore up the defences against?? It’s relentless!
For some reason I’ve suddenly been reminded of that film I Am Legend…..in a final scene the hero (Will Smith of course) throws himself to the wolves (which are actually really really nasty Zombies, not that there are likely any just plain nice ones) so that a child can escape up an air duct to safety carrying the anti-venom and thus on his way to save mankind.
The misguided empath in me sees HG as the hero throwing himself to the Narcs in order to save all us empath children.
It’s ok I’ll snap out of it in a moment….
Just my observation, as a relative newcomer… and no criticism of anyone intended…
Most online forums seem to evolve along a similar dynamic where a few regulars have taken control and will immediately jump all over anyone who offers a differing opinion. To this forum’s credit, that doesn’t seem to be the case here, and I applaud all the participants for it. Yes, snarky comments are sometimes made (usually very funny ones), but there’s no concerted effort at exclusion of those who aren’t “insiders.” And I appreciate that more than I can say, having been soundly pummelled on some other forums where I had the temerity to speak out against the powers-that-be.
That being said, I would just say this to Jenny Jones: I filter each of HG’s blogs and comments through the knowledge that what he’s showing us is the façade he wants us to see — as any good narc does. (Hmmm. Is there such a thing as a “good” narc?) And I’m sure most other readers do the same. Yes, some of the participants flirt with him occasionally, tongue-in-cheek. That’s to be expected. But — speaking purely for myself, of course — I don’t want to date him or have a pint with him or move into a house by the sea with him. I don’t expect him to bombard me with fake sympathy. And I’m certainly not afraid he’s seducing me with his nefarious wiles.
I simply appreciate the fact that he’s providing a useful service by showing us how narcs think and giving us all a place to vent a little. it’s been incredibly helpful to me as I’ve tried to work out all the “whys.” And I applaud his enterprise; it’s not easy to turn your disorder into a cottage industry.
I know this is serious stuff. I’ve been devastated by narcissistic abuse, too. But I don’t find HG’s reaction inappropriate. If we can’t keep a bit of perspective and have a LITTLE sense of humor… then the bastards have won.
Recoveringnarcaholic, very good description. I think what often happens in many social groups, on or offline, is that a narc and her lieutenants seize control. I think it’s safe to predict that HG is not going to let that happen here!
I (along with everyone else) was charged with ignorance. I am not ignorant-I am snarky. In keeping with the educational bent of this blog I provided an example. Also, sometimes humorous or snarky comments are made to diffuse an escalating situation or to demonstrate or give pause to the person that their comments may not be having the effect they intended to convey, and allowing them to consider changing tact to better facilitate that if theyre open. In other situations its just humour because sometimes people need to be reminded to laugh. It is however, never to deny them their voice.
Narcangel, I enjoy your snarkyness. 😆
I second that opinion. Your humor is important to many of us.
I third it. I love the snarks, smartasses, and blunt people of the world. The soft cuddles types are also great, though sometimes you just need someone to tell you “the deal”! You, my friend, NA, have this is spades, along with a keen mind and a killer sense of humor 🙂
Thank you, youre all very kind, but as the soon to be Heralded Globally Tudor would say: I ‘have my eye on you and know your tricks’. Barbara Walters couldnt make me cry.
NA
Life here just wouldn’t be the same with out your out look on things around here.
Yet my keyboards would definitely last longer
I counted ten abused children. If estimation is right, only one and a half of them will be a narcissist later. Took 15 % as a basis. The rest of them will probably suffer from narcissists in their life, will be abused all life long.
I regard this as a fair observation.
A visceral image HG.
If you don’t mind me referring to something I’ve asked before (but is still in moderation…) and also re Shades, would you be one abused child, shut it away / disassociate, become another who is sadly abused again then shut him away, emerge as another etc rinse and repeat as you build the tower higher and higher? Forgetting the last ‘person’ that you were, ad infinitum?
There is force in that suggestion VFH.
But the normals?
What of the normal SVR?
And does “normal” really exist? (Not to intrude on your questions, SVR,sorry, just a thought I often have about this idea of normal. This is a discussion that often happens by those that often work with/live with/care for those outside of the spectrum of “normal”).
I have often doubted this concept of “normal”, though we use it as a benchmark to classify people and diagnose. But, indeed, what IS normal and is it always more adaptive?
**I understand, HG, you use the description of “normal” as someone not overly narcissistic and not possessing the “special traits” of empathy that your kind look for**.
Indy
I have had sane thoughts. I think they shoukd be called Middles.
NA,
He he. Mine are labeled, “What the?” and those thoughts are gaslit away by myself. You see, I “narc” myself now…LOL
I class myself as normal now.
I always knew that there was something missing in me but had no idea what until my narc experience. I spent a lot of time in sorting me out and now I reap the rewards. I take no nonsense now, I say NO, I do not feel guilty even half as much if at all, I don’t say sorry all the time, I don’t offer help unless I want to as don’t feel obliged anymore, I love life, I love myself at last, I realise I have done myself proud in my education at last, I allow people to love me truly now, I could go on but I think you will get it. So normal in my opinion does exist. It’s like HG says ‘ in the middle’, healthy empathic and narcistic traits.
Yippee SVR!!!!! I am sooooo happy for you that you have found that balance, draw those boundaries, and draw on your strength! It is a beautiful place to be in life, to feel “normal” and you definitely should feel proud of this. It is a courageous journey. Balance is key to mental health and most things in nature. The middle is a good play to be.
Now, I do not classify myself as normal, for differing reasons, though I am growing stronger and stronger as years go on. I am not one to take someone’s BS and I have a warrior-ess in me, yes I have fight in me. From those scars, from those pains that have dug deep, I have strength. I have reached the point of gratitude, being thankful for being tested. When I find meaning in life’s challenges, I know I can survive them and thrive from them. Including my dances with narcissists. I needed it, honestly, to grow to my potential. (not condoning abuse, though I think everyone and everything has a reason and purpose). I do not think of myself as a normal because I never really started out as such. I was not taught boundaries, I was told to be seen, not heard, and was ruled by a confusing blend of strict authoritarian with an odd laissez-faire (neglect) flavor. Confusing, huh? What are the rules, as I didn’t know. They changed always. Now I draw boundaries, say No (magic power word!), and do not compromise my values. A work in progress. I can feel what some cannot feel because I have been there. I love this about me. Maybe, for me, my normal is not textbook normal, but….it is OK 🙂
And yes, a blend of empathic and narcissistic traits is very healthy and I am so happy to hear you love yourself. That is pretty powerful!! Thank you so much for sharing your inspiring journey. You go girl!
If I was a narc that could be a little fuel possibly lol! Thank you for your kind words. All of you on here have helped me at the end of my journey to figure the last pieces out. Amazing bunch. I will keep going 😃 Like you I needed this experience to meet the real me. I do love me (but hey a girl always needs to lose that little bit of weight) but that can wait lol! I have had 3 years plus of what I call utter hell but I sought answers. The answers came as I was determined. An empath after all, is that not right HG? 😉 My journey has been incredible and I have grown up, empathic individuals in a way can be childlike by always wanting to make people happy for praise while narcs want to prison people to them for the praise they require, so they are little people to. Stunted growth in both but we can sort ours out if we get down deep and search. There were surprises in store for me which I now can handle as have full understanding. I have also become aware of manipulation to get what you want but I will use it in a nice way, but it will be used if I need chocolate. Ha ha. Listen to your intuition as that’s your most powerful tool in the empath box of tricks. Good luck x
The normals don’t accept abuse and won’t suffer from narcs.
I spent two hours last night listening to an old John Bradshaw lecture. The abuse is bad but the real factor in what one ultimately becomes is that the abuse victim had no one to talk to about it or process it. It’s all that repressed rage that is the problem.
We never will have anyone to talk to about it. The people closest to us will never see and understand. And if we could find another soul damaged similar to ours, it still doesn’t help much, because they already know they are dealing with a Narc and are on lookout for behavior. So they never see his “normal for side. We are alone in the fact that only we have been exposed to whohe actually is in its entirety. Both sides of his face. And repressed rage is close to what I feel, but it is so very much stronger. Resentment, disgust, contempt, scorn, all words that go through my kind as I think about how this site makes me feel. Which he wanted. But also empowered, knowledgeable and purpose driven. Which he never intended. He has never come across a full blown empath , or interacted with one at least. If he had, he would have put up more safety precautions to prevent us from calling his shot for starters. But also if he had known we might stumble into his feeding ground, he would have done a lot better job at diverting attention from it. But he, like most, also mistakes our kindness for weakness. He has probably met either a normal person with normal empathy he tricked or a broken lower empath and he thinks is he knows us all now. He didn’t know we come from all backgrounds and levels of INTELLIGENCE, just like his kind. And the best of us are also incredibly intelligent, God uses this intelligence as tool for the gift of discernment. He placed it in us also. That’s what he hasn’t ever encountered. Until now. An empath with a discerning spirit. And anyone can learn to discern spirits, takes practice or honing a natural gift. Because he is easily discernible as downright evil. He is more than just a narcissist. He is a sociopath, possibly even worse.
That is a good response. Facts, not food for his hungry Narc soul.
Explains alot. An abusive past does not guarantee that someone will be abusive in the future. However, if one has endured abuse as a child, and has been raised in an environment with certain ideas about how to treat others in relationships, and add to that cultural values and ideas, it is possible the person will also turn out to be abusive. I have known others who were abused and today they do not abuse others. There are other factors that contribute to someone being abusive later in life. It is all about control.
Just like an addict. An addict is not always an abuser of others. But we tend to think this way about them and it is unfair.
He is nothing like an addict. That is out of their control, their hippocampus has been hijacked by hard drugs. He had a tough childhoodmso did almost the entire world. I did. Yet I am not a narcissist. Why? For the same reason any of you reading this who are actually emotionally stable will understand, because when I had the idea for revenge, I was disgusted myself. When I have manipulative ideas, I am disgusted by myself. When I want to harm someone intentionally in any way, I am disgusted and scared of myself. That is normal human behavior. Why do you all keep attributing him with feelings he knows nothing about and never will. And it is 100% his choice and his fault at this point. He k owe exactly what he is and why he does it and who he hurts. And YOU ALL ADMIRE HIS HONESTY??? WTF?!? This whole thing is like a giant Narc wet dream . I cannot believe people could be so fake and delusional. What sucks is ignorant women like yall feed him everyday waiting for his attention and prepping him to attack his actual victim, helping assist in her torment through triangulation. Why do you all feel the need to forgive and allow such obvious evil? Please for your own sake do not be that desperate and needy for ANYTHING on this planet like that. It is like signal flare for bottom feeding scum or worse to come suck you dry and dump you out. Seriously. You have no clue really what you are actually dealing with, if you did, you would have nothing but disgust and contempt for this man.
Jenny Jones
All I got from that is Im in someones wet dream.
I’m dying over here! I guess me too. Is that as bad as being on the naughty step?
HG my thoughts are I did not chose it happened subconciously
A choice was made to abandon what was considered to be weak, locked away forever.
I am so very sorry you were put in a position to have to make that choice.
Yet if this choice was never made many would still be stumbling in the dark, you would never have become HG Tudor.
You deserve to find a peace from the battle within, in what best suits you and not what others believe it should look like.
I don’t believe it is a choice, is that correct HG?
I cannot recall choosing being an empath, so why did it happen and I went down this route? Any ideas?
It is likely a combination of genetic predisposition and the environment in which you developed.
There is always a choice. However, some options, whilst presenting a choice, cannot ever be regarded as viable. I made the viable choice although I could readily argue I had no choice.
Thanks. Why oh why did you make that choice?
I saw power and I seized it.
So power to escape the turmoil? The only way as a child I suppose.
In essence yes.
Very sad.
A huge surge of survival instinct then? The only way a child can….retreat into safety and shut down? Awful awful awful.
HG sorry if you’ve said this elsewhere and I’m clearly a slow learner….would a narcissist have started out as an empath?
Angelic’s comment made me wonder….an inherent sense of “something is very wrong here” perhaps? I saw my one of my own babies start crying and get v distressed when picked up by a particular friend who, unbeknown to us at the time, turned out to be an alcoholic. Sadly dead now having been unable to conquer his own demons.
My son, who was only a few months old then, cried every time he held him and only stopped when I took him into my arms. Survival instinct? He knew he wasn’t in safe hands? He is the same child whose father made a scapegoat and is a twin too. He is also out of all my children the one who has come out with the most incredibly insightful and intuitive comments about his father. Did his father see ‘potential’ in him from day 1? His father btw is, I’m pretty sure, a psychopath.
I do not believe that a narcissist would start out as an empath, no.
As a child it is a choice to abandon the emotions and pick up another way to survive.
This is how I do interpret this picture.
SVR
At this point in time I am also witnessing a child make this decision to which I am going to do everything I can to change. My heart is broken because I know now what has been done over the last two years.
Please forgive me if I am coming across angry, it is not directed at anyone. Yet it is coming out in weird ways.
Twilight I am also witnessing a child, one of my own, make the same choice.
I now realise he was being used as a scapegoat from birth. My heart breaks for not seeing it sooner but I was blindfolded by the fog.
I can’t change what’s in the past but like you, will do every single thing within my power to try and change the choice I think he has made, without him sensing my trying to!
May the force be with us! The light side, not the dark.
The force, yes Lol. Yet even darkness is needed to see the light.
I am encouraging a change, it is the dominant person in her life thou that I have to watch. We don’t see eye to eye.
It is fine. No offense taken. Your situation does not sound very pleasant at all. Good luck.
Thank you, it’s not.
I am sorry SVR I didn’t mean to jump in
Apologies. I just replied to this thread and referenced Angelic but meant SVR’s “so power to escape the turmoil? The only way as a child I suppose.”
I am starting to believe that because we all have freedom of choice, being a narcissist or not
(and we all have our demons)
we all choose, and if the narcissist remain so, it is a choice.
Ah this presupposes that the narcissist knows what he or she is. If you do not know how you can exercise a choice?
I don’t know, HG. People make choices in ignorance all the time. I heard a very disturbing comment the other day. One person admitted to being an agnostic and not believing in hell. The other person was shocked! He said, “How can you not believe in hell? If it wasn’t for fear of hell, society would fall apart. We’d all only do what we wanted and everyone would steal, cheat and kill one another!”
Hearing this horrified me and made me wonder how many people thought like this? That only the fear of God and eternal damnation kept them decent? But it also seems to illustrate that narcissists can choose better behavior while not knowing what they are.
Fair point Windstorm2 but the comment was directed at suggesting that narcissist’s have a choice. If that person does not know what they are, it cannot be an informed choice can it. For instance, if you chose to eat a particular food unaware you were allergic to it,could you be condemned for that choice? If you then became aware of that allergy but still chose to eat a particular food which caused an allergic reaction, one might question the sense in such a choice because that choice is being made from a position of knowledge.
Yes, I understand why you state the narcissist might choose better behaviour but remember from our perspective that is the appropriate behaviour for our needs, it is viewed as inappropriate from YOUR perspective.
As to your comment about the fear of God etc keeping them decent, well this was the prevailing view for hundreds of years in medieval Europe.
Midevil Europe and modern day rural America.
I understand your point, and would just posit that lack of understanding goes hand in hand with decisions made in ignorance. And decisions made in ignorance may just as easily be correct as incorrect.
Windstorm2
I hope you don’t mind me jumping in, what about decisions that are made subconsciously that then define your core values? Wouldnt this effect every decision you make from this point on? Consciousnesses or subconsciously. In either case wouldn’t a sense of what you believe to be the driving force of what dictates a persons choice through out life? I do believe with an awareness behavioral changes can be made, I just don’t know if ones core can be change, it is your default setting and one you will always turn to instinctively.
My personal opinion is that we are all born with inherited genetic traits. I believe a narcissists limited emotions are genetic (based on the family children I have observed from their birth). But how narcissistic a child becomes depends a large part in how they are raised. I know from personal experience that love and training can teach a little potential narcissist how other people feel emotions and how that behavior affects others. They can learn how to gather the fuel they need without leaving a trail of destruction. If a four year old can learn
I agree with you that it is an inherent trait, yet so is empathy to which means some lean more to the emphatic side, some to the narcissistic side, then some are balanced.
Yes I believe one can learn behaviors that are not so destructive and still gather the fuel they need. Starting one off at a young age this is an easier path to encourage, as an adult it would have more challenges.
Anything that has been repeated to oneself becomes embedded into the subconscious, to change behaviors you must change the subconscious message you believe. Very challenging, yet not impossible.
Your genetic makeup is your core, is the very foundation of you. This you can not change.
I would agree with your observation with a child that is in a loving and caring home, once this trait is activated they can be taught ways to gather fuel and not be destructive. Yet when this trait is activated in an abusive environment they will hone their abilities to survive. An empath in the same situation will hone their abilities to survive. One of the strongest instincts we have is self preservation.
This is my personal view of things
Sorry my comment was sent prematurely. If a four year old can learn how to treat others with compassion and still meet his fuel needs, a grown man can as well.
Core values can be changed as we learn new truths.
I suppose, Twilight, as I read your questions again, that I don’t believe our subconscious defines our core values. In the ways that subconscious choices define us, I believe they can be overruled and transformed by our conscious choices. To me this is an effect of learning and part of the definition of wisdom.
Windstorm2 I thought about it after I had written that, and our subconscious are the messages we say to ourself, our core I believe comes from our genetic makeup, this is out foundation of who we are. Now can we alter behaviors, yes to which is a conscience choice. Anything we react to is subconscious anything we respond to is conscience. A greater is the only one I believe can make the conscious choice in their behavior, yet this isn’t going to be something that will be overnight and they have to see an upside in doing so. They are not children and can still be molded, their beliefs are set.
My favorite saying is
Knowledge speaks, wisdom listens
A lot of this goes on within this blog on both sides.
Twilight, I agree with much of what you say. But I believe every person has the ability to learn and grow. We all can learn to respond consciously. We are not necessarily doomed to only react. This is separate from our genetic makeup.
To me that’s a large part of what separates humans from other animals. While we are born with certain instincts, they don’t have to rule our behavior. Our intellect and cerebral plasticity enables up to rise above our instinctual behavior. Our physical situation may be outside of our control, but our mind is limitless. And I believe it is our mind that makes us who we are.
Windstorm
I am still agreeing with you on many parts.
With awareness comes change.
Imagine how one that can take subconscious to consciousness. Our minds are extremely powerful, we limit ourself for by our beliefs.
If you tell yourself you can’t, you never will.
Yet I believe nature is balance positive and negative, to much of the other throws things off.
Until a lessor or mid accepts what they are, they will always stay in a place of reaction. Change will only happen with a greater, due to the awareness and the control they already possess, they just need to see the upside. Will they ever “feel” empathy no they are not made to, the best they can ever get is cognitive empathy.
There is another aspect thou the addiction to fuel. This is why I believe it is so hard for an adult to change and see the upside. They are afraid to give up this way of life because they know it works to get this “rush” they so desperately need. This is coming from a body’s way of rewarding itself. The feel good hormone dopamine and happy hormone serotonin. The body doesn’t recognize good or bad behavior only this behavior induces these hormones. It is the environment that teaches which behavior is best suited to induce this reaction within. The habit is now entwined as a belief.
Have you ever tried to change your belief in anything, especially one that you believe your very existence depends on?
Yes, twilight, I agree they will only be able to feel cognitive empathy. My daughter has two boys. The 2 year old is very colorblind and the 4 year old is lacking some emotions. They have been this way from birth. She works hard to teach them both how to compensate so they can be successful in a colorful, emotion-filled world. But she can’t “fix” them – only teach them how to cope the best they can.
Your comment about addiction, dopamine and serotonin reminded me of Indy’s reference the other day to the realm of the hungry ghosts in Tibetan Buddhism. Been checking that out and it plays right into all forms of addiction.
I have changed my beliefs on many many things in the course of my life, many very essential and many about myself. I was raised that the most important thing in life is to keep an open mind and be willing to change (ive never changed THAT belief!😄).
I’ve always said that libraries all over the world are filled with things I don’t know. I am not the woman I hope to become, yet. I am a work in progress, so learning and change are essential for me.
Windstorm2
Your daughter has an advantage of recognizing this, yet the perspective of the one that is lacking in emotions will be different due to never experiencing them. It will be a challenge.
Lol I have a deep love for books and libraries.
Yes her reference caught my attention to. I just have had no time to looking much into it but to briefly glance at what I googled.
My core beliefs have never changed, they are the same today as they were when I was younger. Yet I have a very open mind. Water, air, light, sound it all flows, such is the energy that surrounds us. We are nothing but pure energy in a conscience state, It is when we hang on to a moment in this flow we get stuck and things become congested and stops. In energy there is always a positive and a negative.
Yes. That’s a big advantage in my husbands family. It’s full of alcoholics and every one is taught about the 12 steps and problems with alcoholics – including narcissism. Thru the influence of my mother and father-in-law, my generation learned how to protect ourselves and our children from the chaos and abuse. Now my children and their cousins are passing this knowledge on to their children. There are still alcoholics and narcissists, but nothing is hidden, and knowledge is power!
Your comment about getting stuck in the present reminds me of a philosophy I studied. It was that only the present is real. The past is over and the future not here. Therefore we must live only in the present. But like you said we can not get stuck in it, bc as soon as we do, it has become the past and we’re thinking about the future. We must live moment to moment. Everything else is illusion. This philosophy called the energy you described as the creative force of the universe. 😊
Life is the greatest teacher, yet change comes in the form of children and the knowledge the acquire. This can be either positive or negative.
In this particular area and what HG is doing, I believe change will happen over time. He has a unique way of approaching this subject and introducing it where it is understood by many. It is a matter of being open minded and getting over what was done to you (people) and actually listening to hear and not react. I have spoken to many and it goes one of two ways, I will never listen to what a narc has to say in this subject, which is sad due to you will never get the correct perspective listening to Empaths to who is this person I would like to learn more.
Knowledge is power and with this change can happen.
Thank you windstorm2. I am back to my very quick in and out due to I am going back to work. Yet I would love to discuss what your thoughts are on this particular philosophy.
Have a wonderful day!
Twilight, the one constant in life is change. We just have to accept that and stay open to it and the knowledge and wisdom that it brings. There are important things we can learn from every situation and person in our lives, including the narcissists.
I am fortunate that at this point in my life I am retired, so I have plenty of time to meditate and think. Goodness knows that wasn’t always true! I enjoy sharing thoughts with you, too. You have a great rest of your week! ❤️
Windstorm2 yes life is always in a constant motion, never stoping.
For me I adore the Greaters that I know and have known. The first taught me strategy and control (Control of myself), the second well that is something that will remain between him and I, the third I am learning much from, I respect him and adore him. I don’t agree with his methods, yet my awareness to things, he is helping bring from subconscious to the conscience
lol I do hate my touch screen extremely sensitive
Thank you even thou at times I wish there were more hours in a day.
Windstorm2
Please don’t think I am trying to push my opinion I am not.
I do agree with you on the fact our minds become more as we become more aware. We all just progress at different speeds.
Twilight, that is the beauty of a forum like this. We can all share our opinions and experiences and learn from one another. We don’t have to agree. In fact if we all agreed, we wouldn’t be learning! No one I know agrees with all of my beliefs. The nicest thing my thinking is called is eccentric! And I’m fine with that.
My father had a saying, “Listen to every fools advice, then make up your own mind.” I’m just another fool out there with her own opinions. Everyone’s reality and truths are different. We all have to make up our own minds based on our own reality. I really enjoy hearing what you think. 😊
Windstorm2 so true, I respect everyone’s opinion I do get a little feisty when one wants to force their opinion as fact, it is misleading and can be destructive, yet at times can be shown as an example of the topic being discussed.
I have enjoyed reading your views and opinions to.
We all have a choice in each situation, whether uninformed or not.
Which is the point I made yesterday but the outcome is going to be different where someone is uninformed.
You can’t. That is not a choice. So empaths do they chose?
What are your thoughts SVR?
Honestlly, I feel your pain and pity for him, we all do. That is just the human emotion of empathy. FOR ALL THE NAIVE/NARCISSISTIC WOMEN ON THIS NADC SUPPLY GRAVY TRAIN OF A WEBSITE!!! You are actually just normal people feeling empathy and the reason you are so amazed by it and feel you are special isn’t because should actually “feel” others” , if you did, you could feel how evil permeates this entire site. To the point that I even wonder if your poor misguided little soul H.G. isn’t anything more than your average little soul ass demon in disguise. If you don’t feel that evil AND you are like the chick posting above, with a long winded rhetorical apology and stamp of lifetime forgiveness because he was young when it started, you are definitely not an empath or even carry the quality of being empathic. You are actually his female alter ego. Just another Narc. Doubt me? Only a narcisst, with the highest opinion of themselves I think I have ever seen would actually have the audacity to consider themselves God like that. Because you must feel like God an awful lot if you are out there handing out a blanket of forgiveness for sins committed by him against evrybody, excluding you, and sins committed against him by his caregivers, again NOT YOU. So for YOU to 1) not feel automatically that this whole site is dark and has an evil element running through it, and also 2) you fail to even begin to understand Narcissism, which is just plain ignorance since this site is so completely paid bare with every move they might make. He warns you in a video about how “he warned you”, which is typical Narc fun. This is not a game. He does not differ from NPD, do not be fooled by his overt narcissistic traits and characteristics. Because if you look hard at an “overt narcissist” you will discover nothing more than your average socippath. Viola! This website dedicated to his Majesty and feeding his supply. I would just watch you offer yourself up to wolves, because honestly you kinda deserve each other in that twisted egokind of way. However you are not plain evil. He is. You are merely ignorant and self absorbed, like the rest of America. And please give find another way to make yourself feel “special” and feed your ego. Because this is not a game. Women who really are empathic suffer the cruelty from just a standard lower Narc and commit suicide or dive head first into hard drugs. They can no longer stand all of the evil and bad and FAKE (you) in the world. Go find some other lost cause to cling to and gain an identity, and while you’re looking, spread the word, NEVER EVER APOLOGIZE FOR SOMETHING YOU HAD NO CONTROL OVER AND WASNT YOUR EVEN YOUR SIN TO BEGIN WITH! Not for the obvious reason of self preservation, because if you havent figured that out being here, you never will, but because he is hurting children when he manipulates and belittles their mother. And somewhere out in reality he is doing that right now. Crushing some poor women and her children would in order to feed his need for constant attention and admiration. And you a covert Narc, because you are, you apologized because you actually believe that maybe YOU could fix him, he just needs YOU and YOUR special love and he will be better. Again self absorbed and grandiose much lately? Somehow you and your love are different than everybody else in the world, you are so wonderfully blessed that you can heal the unbearable with a blessing and forgiveness on the internet. Yeah, definition of a narcissist, not an empath.
Jenny Jones
You seem angry.
Today’s understatement NA.
Jennifer Barrier-Jones
Not sure what brought all of that on, yet I do hope that anger has run its course.
Wow. Ranting much!
You’re saying you’re the only person here who has ‘the right’ to claim they have suffered narcissistic abuse, and you’re throwing labels around left, right and centre that other people who say as such are covert narcs themselves and should get over themselves? hmmmmm *strokes chin*
Children without eyes in deep agony and pain, desperately asking for help. They look as if they were almost dead. It is distressing and heart-breaking.
This image is heartbreaking. All those lost souls. This shouldn’t happen to anyone. Apologies are viewed as weakness in your world, but not in mine; I am sorry for the abuse you suffered, you deserved better.
You are his source of narcissistic supply now, quit playing his game. He posted this picture for this purpose right here. Women like to you to shower him attention and pity over his awful childhood and admiration at his admitting he is a typical narcissistic asshole. Wow. What an accomplishment. And your apology is more than a waste of energy, it is a source of pure loveliness to him. Since you feed him his supply and take blame for his bad behavior.let me be clear also, you do not appear weak to him when you apologize, you appear laughably stupid. Especially when you have the audacity to apologize to him for how he chooses to destroy women who are just like you. He will come back and feed off of tpyour post repeatedly for years. Wake up. You might be an empath, but that does not mean you are delusional like him. If you carry yourself this way with everyone, apologizing for things you had nothing to do with, rationalizing and justifying their behavior, you will not only contribute heavily to the destruction of society, but also you will be nothing but a hollow empty shell. So you own your mistakes and
Leave his to him. You can’t save everyone. Wipe the dirt off your shoulder and move along.
I don’t usually cry, but this image has made my eyes watery. So sorry. The image, according to me, shows children that yearn for love and attention, but they do not receive it from their parents, and that is how they slowly turn into these soulless people.
My interpretation too and to expand, they always seek to reach for that approval but have been abusively conditioned to be silent and bury their pain over it.
Great interpretation clarece. It’s heartbreaking though.
Embryonic
Never born into full maturity
Never born into full love
Never born into accountability
Born, but scorched
Born, but corrupted
Born, but not to full life
Kidnapped by malicious forces
Kidnapped and re- programmed
Kidnapped and used
Satan
😩😦
Looks like a group of pitiful empath victims, blinded by what they can’t see (The Narc’s manipulative tactics). Reaching out because they don’t know who they are anymore – they’re ‘lost’.
Sarahjane, I think it’s all of us. We’re all lost – the empaths and the narcs. We’re all damaged from toxic relationships that should have helped and supported us. All instinctively reaching out for something that we can’t see….but know we desperately need.
Agreed Windstorm2.
Windstorm2, what you’ve said is the truth…every one of us is damaged.
I couldn’t quite work it out either, but the images look like lost souls to me. I’m not sure if we are the lost souls or the narcissist is a lost soul, or both.
Both.
But awareness and understanding opens the door to not being aimlessly lost. I thank you HG, whatever your motives, for opening that door.
You are welcome.
It all started in his childhood…HG’s childhood….too sad
Correct interpretation.
La Danse Macabre during your childhood..sorry for that HG…!!
HG! This image together with the “Haunted Chamber” that you just loaded on you tube,explains everything…It speaks for itself…it was the trigger wasn’t it? Was it when the ” creature” was born?
You shall see in due course.
I cannot help but feel cross about your family. What the hell have they done to you? It just shows how important the childhood years are for the rest of your life. HG my parents were not very good and I believe self centred individuals but I did not become a narc. Why? Also as I have only been enlightened recently of my traits I believe subconsciously I have not repeated the cycle with my own family. Thank god as I know this cycle can be repetitive as no one is aware that they are behaving in an unkind manner. It is no secret that you are wealthy but money helps but is not the full picture. I know there are many women out there who just go for the bling but that is not I. An educated simple lady that appreciates your knowledge. Just a shame we cannot fix you. Shame we cannot get to that beast and eradicate it for good. I know the mind incredibly powerful but you are a very bright man and are aware, so are the doctors using therapies with you and if so can you share what? I wish you well.
Thank you SVR.
Right HG. But thee image.. What exactly is it trying to say specifically? That you were always ‘haunted’.. by other children?
HG,
Are the questions I’m asking ‘money questions’ ?
Does this refer to a an abusive childhood?
Correct.
I’m sorry! I also have demons that haunt me from past. I wish you the power to someday find love and peace. For me it is to late and it will never happen. I have finally realized that! You still have a chance! Seize the power that is inside of you and make it happen!
May you explain the image..?
Are you saying that many children feel the way you do?
You’re a night owl HG.
Love to read more on your perception HG, of how a Narc is created!
This will be detailed in Little Boy Lost, Kim.
The pic still creeps me out. I now have learned I can’t fix any of this for you. I can only choose my choices in my situation and continue learning from you. I still have much to learn. Will you put an expanded version to this one, or, does it remain too raw? I do wish you peace.
Thank you. Expanded truths will come in due course.
Thanks. I need clarity on this one. I referred a lady to your site on fb and here. I also told her that you were the best because you were a N yourself. I even told her about you building an Empath Army, she was appalled. She said, “Why would any of you want to listen to a N tell you how to deal with them or even believe he wants to help any of you heal?” She said, “I think he is laughing at you all.” It was interesting to hear her perspective, but I cannot deny H.G. you have helped me heal so much, but there are many who are not willing to receive your help on the strength of you being one of the abusers. I don’t know how much fuel you gather from helping us (if any is gathered at all), but there are some people who just don’t understand. I almost second guessed myself, but then I remembered how far I have come, and how eerily your stories mirror what actually happened to me. It may not work for some, but for me, it has. I still have break downs from triggers in these posts or comments, but I know I will survive this.
Thank you NOA, I appreciate your compliments and you referring people. I am not laughing at any of you in the way this ignorant person suggested. That would be the behaviour of a fool and I am not a fool.
As explained before, I do not gather much fuel from this. I gather some which I freely admit but my fuel needs are met in my private life.
There will always be those who cannot stomach what I provide because of their own blindness. More fool them. Fuck ’em, they can blunder around and get fucked over as you seize the power.
HG, you’re sounding like me with the F*k them bombs. Lol
But it really can’t be better said than that. A so-called victim coming here, maybe reading one post and lashing out at all of us, chastising us for being stupid and accusing you of laughing at all of us to trigger insecurities really can F*k off.
I agree.
Nice!
Lol only the foolish turn down knowledge in search of wisdom.
Wise words grasshopper.
Thank you
It does surprise me at times how so many want to stay in bondage by rejecting truth, because they are so blinded by the belief one such as you can not speak it.
Thanks for the encouragement HG
Just read what that woman said. I also told someone recently and she said is that wise to be in contact with an abuser and she knows some of what I have been through. Credit to her she did not go any further. I believe there is much ignorance out there. Even although I knew there was abuse I never could understand the full depth of it until I had been subjected to it. Thinking back on it some of the things I believed were way out there, norm people would not have believed it. It is very hard to talk to anyone about this abuse as they just don’t get it. That saying Ignorance is bliss, not in this case. That woman entitled to her views and I hope she never has a run in with one. Although saying that my experience has made me a much better person all round. Thank you to HG for your blog and all this information that I treasure and appreciate. It is also nice to speak withat people who truly understand and get it. That’s the woman’s perogative but I wish her well.
This one is troubling. The overwhelming feeling of despair and morbidity have blocked my sense to discern the picture. Eyes are the window to soul. Is it depicting born empty? I can’t get image to erase from my mind so I figure something I need to understand here. Interpretation needed.
The day will come when the world especially empaths will be armed with so much information and grey rock all of your kind.Im proud to say I am no longer on a narc snack menu because I have raised my vibration to a higher frequency so you low level game players that never evolve or learn any lessons or take any responsibility for your part will have fewer and less supply so yes you can fade away and die off.Lucky us we live free and thrive.Your tricks are really predictable and boring anyway.No one wants to play reaction childish games.Grey rock no contact checkmate.We pretend you dont exist because only love is real.You do not exist.Your kind is not real just an illusion.We live in love not fear and we live in reality that is why we win.Maybe can fool me once but not twice.Done.Game over
Interesting. I think you will find that what we do is very real and the effects are very real. There are hundreds of millions of victims, I am not going to run out of them any time soon, but good for you that you have raised your vibration.
Winter
Is it a good vibration? A strange sensation?
Crap… now that song will be stuck in my head.
Can you explain?