Dealing With The Evidence
Proof. The empathic individual has certain traits which mean gathering proof and exhibiting that proof to the narcissist and other parties is highly important. An empathic person is honest, decent, believes in the truth and has to have the truth known. This is not done from any sense of gloating or about showing how clever and virtuous the empathic person is. The empath operates this way because: –
- They want the truth to be known by third parties;
- They want to demonstrate that they are correct;
- They want to preserve their self-worth by showing the truth of the situation;
- They want to show other people that the narcissist is in the wrong;
- They want to demonstrate to the narcissist that what the narcissist has done or said is wrong. This is often done to try to help the narcissist, to heal and to fix, rather than engage in point scoring;
- It is done to preserve their sanity in the face of the false reality and all its manipulations which are deployed by our kind.
It often takes an empathic person a considerable amount of time to realise that merely explaining what has happened to our kind gets them absolutely nowhere. You may know precisely what has happened but if your recollection of events, no matter how accurate, does not accord with what we require, challenges us, stops us achieving our aims or worst of all constitutes a criticism, we will do anything and everything we can to distort your truth.
I use the phrase ‘your truth’ because it is always important to keep in mind that with each and every situation there is the Empathic Perspective and there is the Narcissistic Perspective. For example, you serve food for everybody and you start with the person nearest to you and this results in our kind being served last. From the Empathic Perspective, you regard this action as the most practical and the politest. From the Narcissistic Perspective, we view this as a criticism; we should have been served first. This criticism results in us being wounded, this causes the ignition of our fury and we may storm out of the dining room through our cold fury or we may fling the plate at the wall as a manifestation of heated fury, either actions occurring in order to draw fuel to heal the wound that has been created by your criticism of us.
Thus, you have the same event but two different perspectives. If you tried to explain to us that you had served people ahead of us because of practicality all you would be doing is repeating the criticism to us and igniting the fury once again. We will only have regard to our perspective and in the ensuing conversation we would engage in deflection, projection, blame-shifting, word salad and other manipulations to reject what you are asserting. From your perspective it appears innocuous, an over-reaction on our part, but from our perspective our response is completely justified.
What of a situation whereby you suspect we have been cheating with somebody else? Let us assume you have followed us and saw us pick up another woman who we embrace in our car and then head off to some secluded spot, a hotel or another location for the purposes of the tryst. You do not confront us but observe and then wait for our return that evening. You decide to remain calm and when we walk in through the door you state,
“You are cheating on me with a blonde-haired woman. I saw you pick her up this afternoon, kiss her and then I followed you to The Happy Ending Motel and saw you go in a room together.”
If you said this angrily, we would draw fuel from your reaction. We would recognize that this is an opportunity to gain more fuel from you and therefore we would look for ways to provoke you further. You are also challenging us. Whilst it does not manifest as a criticism, we still do not appreciate you trying to challenge our superiority and our entitlement to do as we please.
If you made this comment in a calm and neutral manner, you do not provide us with any fuel. You are also criticising us.
You have seen what has happened. It is not hearsay but you have witnessed our behaviour and you have told us so, providing sufficient detail to confirm its legitimacy. What might you hear in response? There are many different replies.
Denial “No I haven’t. I have been at work all afternoon.” Yes, we will be this brazen. Lies come easily to us.
Deflection. “Yes I was dropping a colleague off. She is staying there for a few days and we needed to talk about a project. You know the new plans for the development in the Old Quarter, well we are involved in that now and we need to put a proposal together in a very short time.” On we go talking about something else.
Projection. “I wasn’t doing anything wrong, not like you and that fellow, what is he called, Mike, I saw you getting close to him last week when you went for coffee.” This may or may not be true, it does not matter. It serves to draw a reaction from you and allows us to move the conversation away from what we have done.
Blame-Shift. “Who do you think you are following me? Who gives you the right to do that? There is something wrong with you. I am sick of you trying to control me.”
Blame-Shift. “So what if I am seeing somebody else, if you put out more than once in a blue moon, I wouldn’t have to go elsewhere would I? I am sick of working hard and coming in to this kind of crap.”
Disappearance – we just turn around and walk back out and disappear to some bolt hole for a few days.
Denial and Projection “I think you are mistaken, are you imagining things again? You keep doing this.”
Deflection and Gas Lighting “Oh that, nothing to worry about there, she is new to the company and I was showing her to where she is staying until her new apartment is ready. I know her from the Southern Office, so I greeted her with a kiss, that was all. Anyway, I told you I was doing this last week, don’t you remember? Yes, I told you all about it over dinner, you must have forgotten again. You seem to be doing that a lot recently.”
Verbal assault “Who do you fucking think you are? You are a miserable old cow. Creeping around watching what I am doing. Jesus, you are so fucking sad, I am sick of you. Look at the state of you.” Cue a tirade of insults which may escalate into breaking things and even attacking you.
No matter how you try to point out to us that you have seen us, you know what you saw, you know what the other woman looks like we will not hear what you are saying.
If you keep going and do so in an emotional manner, all we focus on is the fuel that we are giving you and continuing to provoke you to get more fuel.
If you do it without providing fuel, all we hear is the criticism. This wounds us and forces us to seek fuel from you (or if you continue not to provide it we will be forced to withdraw and seek fuel elsewhere).
We will not accept what you are saying, no matter how convincing you are and no matter how much detail you provide. You will be accused of making it up, reading something into nothing, taking it the wrong way, being confused, being mistaken along with all and more of the other manipulations mentioned above.
What about providing some independent evidence to us? What if you have evidence from our phone, in a document, an e-mail, a sound recording or a video? You decide to show us a video of what we did that afternoon in the hope and expectation that we must surely accept what we have done. It is there, recorded and on the screen. How will we respond?
Once again, depending on the way you have conveyed this to us, you will have either provided fuel (telling us there is more) and you have challenged us or you have criticised us. Our perspective means we need fuel, we want fuel, we need to assert our superiority, we need to maintain control, we need to keep you submissive and manipulated. Astonishing as it may seem, you can expect reactions akin to those above and these as well: –
- We will tell you the footage has been edited to make us look bad;
- We will say that the footage does not show the whole picture and is taken out of context;
- We will say it is somebody who looks like us but isn’t us;
- We will try to delete the footage;
- We will damage the device on which the footage is held;
- We will produce some different evidence which points to some imagined transgression on your part and focus on that instead;
If you have independent evidence of any kind, its production engenders the same response as detailed above because we look at it from an entirely different perspective. You can expect the independent evidence to be attacked, tampered with or destroyed along with the plethora of manipulations that have been described above.
You may think that showing our kind definitive proof of our wrongdoing would cause us to hold our hands up and admit we have been caught. It does not work with our kind in that way. We have been designed to see things in a different way so that we will respond to protect ourselves from your criticism (or to draw more fuel and head off your challenge) and that is what we see and hear – criticism and/or fuel. These devices and manipulations occur because: –
- We are never at fault;
- We are superior to you;
- We must be in control;
- We are omnipotent;
- You are inferior;
- We are entitled to do what we want;
- We need fuel; and
- We hate criticism.
Save your independent evidence for the third parties. Save your breath and your sanity.
The only thing you will ever prove is how predictable, as narcissists, we are, when are confronted with proof.
33 thoughts on “Dealing With The Evidence”
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if presented in court following the “Core Principles”, will it have any impact? I mean hard objective facts & evidence… thank you
It will in terms of evidential weight before a judge.
Thank you for confermation
HG, what kind of reaction do you think will occur in case of showing this brilliant post of yours proving a pointe to a guy somewhat (MR) of your kind?
“Why are you showing me this?”
No accountability or responsibility on their behalf. Evidence will always be refuted. It really isn’t worth the headache or heartache. Unless it is undeniably ill refutable. It can often be a slippery slope to seek revenge.
HG Tudor I noticed you often use the expression “master of puppets”. And I think now it’s no coincidence that one of the favourite songs of my ex was Metallica’s “Maste of puppets”. Just look at the text…
Do you often listen to songs that reflect your true state of mind and true intentions like this example?
I don’t know the song you refer to, I am not a fan of Metallica.
There are certain songs that will of course resonate with my mind set, yes.
You’re so vain is a song about a Narc
This is scarily accurate of my experience with my ex over 2 and a half years. HG can I just ask your opinion, with a narcissist that lies so much to so many people, is there ever a worry that eventually you get caught out when people realise the trail of victims you leave behind? I know you don’t care per se, but surely there reaches a point where you are nearly trapped in your own house of cards just waiting for it to all fall down?
No because we have no sense of accountability.
My proof came unexpectedly. We switched cars, I had an instinctual response to check the glove box and found the new car registered to the new supply. I looked her up on fb and saw she was somewhat attractive and had a barrage of needy post (he likes that). I confronted him via text and ended it. I had been lied to enough to know he would just twist things and gaslight and I would be manipulated to give him another chance.
So would you offer me any advice in my case, I’m sure you’re familiar with.. ?
You explained it perfectly as usual, HG. Thank you.
I have learned it’s just not worth it. Just results in me getting sworn and yelled at.
So in a nutshell – there is NO dealing with the evidence. And unless you are in some sort of relationship with a Narcissist you can not relate to the helplessness you feel.
Also I assume you write in the first person to make a point – not that you yourself are a narcissist – would that be an accurate statement?
Yep, I get stuck in this. Need to remember these words and types of defenses are used so boldly with amazing conviction too.
I had tight, “beyond a shadow of doubt” evidence from a PI and also had some devices hacked into…. presented all of it in a very rageful emotional manner. Didn’t have the knowledge I do now about remaining detached and unemotional…. so, as HG has written here, all the denials, deflections, projections, etc. did commence. In spite of cold hard evidence…. crazy making for sure
Ms brown, you had a PI follow your narc? I’ve been thinking about whether this would be handy for the purpose of divorcing my narc. I’m sure he’s up to all sorts of terrible things but I don’t have enough to scare him away from a lengthy court battle.
yes I did…. because MY evidence he evaded I thought PI evidence he would at least say “ok, you are right” admit guilt, something, anything… not the case, but precisely what HG wrote. does not help in divorce court in USA, because most states are “No Fault” and it doesn’t matter. at least I KNEW i wasn’t imagining everything, as he said I was.
My ex has been caught on video committing a crime but of course it is not him. He actually tells people who had previously known nothing about it to look at the video. This has always been his MO. If he protests loudly and strikes first he must be telling the truth right?
Absolutely.
This was horrifically accurate of my experience. The guy is 27 years old, HG does the lying get worse as a narcissist gets older? And what about the trail of people who you discard that view you as a liar and cheat – do you ever worry about the growing number of people who have the same story to tell about you? People talk about word gets around, I just wonder if you every worry about that.
No I don’t.
HG Tudor I noticed you often use the expression “master of puppets”. And I think now it’s no coincidence that one of the favourite songs of my ex was Metallica’s “Maste of puppets”. Just look at the text…
Do you often listen to songs that reflect your true state of mind and true intentions like this example?
I haven’t noticed, no.
I am laughing out loud about so much of this. I knew who the narc was. I even knew the ways he tried to manipulate me. I always said i could have film of him doing ANYTHING. It didnt have to be anything negative… If he knew I needed him to admit it he 100% of the time denied it was him.
Hmmm… I’m starting to think now when Lord N’Oscars told me wife number one was still in the picture only because she happened to be a realtor and was helping him buy a new house something else was going on there. Yes, I know she ended up as wife number three for a second go-round, but I wonder if it was possible that something was actually going on between them when he and I were still together… Guess I’ll never know.
He actually (and in a way almost a backward compliment to me) accused me of doctoring and altering text messages, swearing he didn’t send what he had sent.
What’s funny is the more he tries to smear, the worse he makes himself look. No one believes what he says, and anyone who knows me that he’s tried to smear me to has pretty much told him he’s the one that sounds like the lunatic.
Poetic justice.
When I was a teenager and with the greater married narcissist (my after high school boss) I used to record all our phone conversations and I would play them later to hear his voice. (I know that sounds stupid but that’s a good example of why you should never date children – they do stupid shit). Back then if you had one of the old desktop message machines you could record the call. I had no idea it was illegal. Being the idiot I was at the time, I told him I had them. He was completely calm and said “how fun would it be to listen to them together” and I said that would be so fun because that meant time with him. We get together and I had the tape player and all the tapes with me. I gave them to him and one by one he pulled the tape out of each cassette and it piled on the floor like ribbon. There went all my proof! Poof!
On May 31, 2017 11:17 AM, “Knowing the Narcissist” wrote:
> HG Tudor posted: ” Proof. The empathic individual has certain traits > which mean gathering proof and exhibiting that proof to the narcissist and > other parties is highly important. An empathic person is honest, decent, > believes in the truth and has to have the truth known.” >
And yet she still stays with him. And he makes it look like SHE is the one controlling HIM as a result of his “infidelity”. And I use the term in quotes since I am sure he felt entitled. (Despite telling me how he was/still is so “guilt ridden” that he has “lost his soul”).
I would most definitely stay at The Happy Ending Motel if it existed.
Hmmm I had independent evidence from two different sources for two different “transgressions” and he didn’t do any of the things you listed, he basically just fucked off hahaha. That is, after the second independent evidence. After the first I was supposedly drunk and imagining things and everything was bullshit.