Icing on the Awake

icing-on-the-awake

The bedroom is one of my favourite rooms. One of my ex-girlfriends used to call it the torture chamber. Another called it the freezer. Their appellations amused me. I don’t like to be touched. Dr O has suggested this is because that touch reminds me too much of what I am missing. I laughed at her remark. I prefer not to be touched, so how on earth would I miss that? I soon learned in the bedroom however that there was an expectancy to touch and hold. At first I would go along with this ritual but I soon tired of it and the thought of ‘spooning’ made me gag. I then learned however that my dislike of being touched and touching was actual a very useful weapon. I initially refrained from touching purely because I did not like it. No more. No less. The person in bed with me however would make such a scene about it that I learned they had to be touched or held to affirm that I felt something for them. Accordingly, by withholding any form of contact this would really upset them. It was marvellous. I was able to turn an idiosyncrasy of mine into a tool to cause upset and distress. If I refused to cuddle up (I’m shuddering just typing that) then I would be met with loud sighs and pleading requests. This emboldened me to not even face their way. In fact, I would lie looking at them and then purposefully turn my back on them. Moments later the sobbing would start and I would feel the power flowing through me before I drifted off to sleep. From what they told me, they endured many a lonely night trying to sleep. If they tried to place an arm around me, I would shrug it off or if really irritated (and this was a body blow) I would get up and sleep in the spare room. I love doing this. Not only do I get to really isolate the other person but then I can criticise them in the morning for forcing me from my bed and into the spare room. That gives me a delightful boost as I butter my toast.

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190 thoughts on “Icing on the Awake”

  1. HG what do you think the reason is you don’t like physical contact ? Can you remember at what age you were aware of that ?

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    1. Touch equates to intimacy. Intimacy is not something I understand fully and creates a feeling of weakness because it threatens to cause attachment. Attachment must not happen.

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      1. Interesting. I can understand why you feel that way.

        Is it that:

        You are unable to form attachments ?

        Prevent yourself from forming attachments because it would make you feel weak?

        or…possibly both?

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      2. If they cannot attach and do not know how to attach , there should be no concerns from the narc about attaching

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      3. We’re already the enemy if you view it as an invasion. Can’t it be enough that it’s more we truly value, appreciate, admire and grow to love this person we spend substantial time with and choose you to be part of our daily life? We’re sharing ourselves with you. Not trying to invade and conquer you. Are you open to that view?

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      4. That is a “caveman” no. lol
        No to it’s not enough what we offer consistently over time?
        No you are not open to the view?
        Or, No to both?
        Define, please.

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      5. Hi MLA – CLARECE……your smart assy reply made me remember someone saying this………”he’s such a smart ass…..if he sat on a tub of ice cream he could tell you what flavour it is.” HG does like things ice cold!!!!!!

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      6. I ask because I get a few responses I consistently hear AND there is the research….so it is always interesting to hear your take on…yourself lol.

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      7. Hi Dr, as a professional what are your thoughts on HG’s concern that we are trying to get them to attach and they are of course avoiding this ? But at the same time have an apparent inibility to attach ? Therefore there is never a threat of them becoming attached no matter what we do ?

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  2. Funny thing about this.. when one finally gives up trying or caring, then they say oh you are such an ice princess, you make me feel worthless and unwanted. You don’t love me enough….Blah blah blah 🙂

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  3. You would not get too much fuel or any delightful boost from me……I cannot abide being touched either…….you would have to fight me for that spare room……does that make me a narc????? Don’t answer that…..I really don’t want to know…….ignorance is bliss………..

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  4. The narcpath used to cuddle and kiss a lot in the beginning. When he slowed it way down I, of course, thought it was something I did. When he finally came by after days of no contact, he said “boy, you just need lots of hugs and cuddles don’t you?” I’m so glad I dont have to deal with your kind anymore.

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  5. It was this (among a few other behaviours) that had me fooled in the very beginning I had bonded with an Asperger. I am hoping to see your thoughts on this confusion one day.

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  6. I don’t like it either. Hugging and kissing and cuddling have always been an exercise in frustration…specifically how long I can hide mine. It’s so uncomfortable and claustrophobic-feeling. And yet most people think not wanting to do that stuff means I don’t care about them! Eternally frustrating.

    But now I know what I did wrong! It’s so obvious! I should’ve gone down the narcissistic fork in the road and harvested everyone’s hurt responses for negative fuel rather than letting them bother ME. 😀 (I’m kidding, of course.)

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      1. Ouch. 😀

        Yeah, I suppose I should’ve worded that better. It would be more accurate to have said “These are just wistful thoughts, of course.” You’re right, I wasn’t actually kidding about what I said.

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    1. Hi JJMT, I think you mean couldn’t care less. I feel the same physical sensations as others, but its primary purpose is to gain fuel and bind people to me. I like that most of all. I love fuel, I like fucking, I can “make love” during seduction but that is mimicry.

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      1. A pet peeve of mine as well when people say “could care less” when they mean “couldn’t care less”. So glad you like to fuck.

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      2. It is an irritant of mine also RS. If you could care less, you can care less than you are stating and thus what you are talking about is not so much of an issue as you are trying to convey. I am pleased you are on the same page as me with that one.

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      3. HG

        Sooo if you could find a conduit for fuel, and they discover they enjoy “fucking” and can conform to this touch issue
        What would this mean to you?

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    2. The could care less thing made me laugh. I actually searched it up a few weeks ago because it was starting to bother me but I’m sure what I found was that both can be used so I stopped being bothered by it.

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  7. Doctor O is correct. You were never showed love and warmth so you react in an over the top way because you simply don’t know how to demonstrate physical affection and enjoy the closeness on offer. I understand that because I don’t like people I don’t know too well getting physicallt close to me.
    My narc claimed to love physical contact but once the GP ended, he hated being touched. He’d move to the edge of the bed to avoid any contact at all and face away. How I longed for him to fall off the bed. Still, I got my own back, I’d dig him in the ribs or hold his nose when he snored. Used to infuriate him.

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    1. Funny… thx… I did something similar… I could probably had smothered him if I wanted on those drinking pass out snoring nights! But I only took it so far … damn my conscience and moral compass!!!

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  8. If you snore…don’t worry I’ll be the one moving to the next room lmao.

    Snoring drives me absolutely nuts. It is so irritating.

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    1. Sleep apnea machine…. damn.. I only found out recently I could have put a certain “substance” in the chamber and “lights out”.;; but fuck, my conscience wouldn’t allow it….

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      1. C

        That actually just cracked me up.. you appealed to my dark humor.

        Do you have dissociative identity disorder?

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  9. I have went through that one so many times. Turns his back, took me a long time to even be able to lay on his chest. Think his comment was something like, oh, i get it, she needs to lay on me for comfort. SHE, i always was refered to as she, she is mad, she is upset. Get away from me, lay over there, and I’m gonna sleep on the couch, or you are. Didn’t understand it because most of the time we weren’t fighting or anything. And yes, times i would break down and cry, and i hate crying. Why do you hate to be toughed? Is it that our species revolts you that badly? Are we that dicusting to you? Just curios.

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    1. Touch equates to intimacy. Intimacy is not something I understand fully and creates a feeling of weakness because it threatens to cause attachment. Attachment must not happen.

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      1. “Attachment must not happen” ……..why what would happen if attachment did happen?……is it even possible for a narc to get attached???? Do they even know what attachment really is?? Have they felt it before??? I know…….too many questions……maybe you have covered this already somewhere…..if so please advise.

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      2. Yes…..I can agree with that statement……it certainly has been that way for me…… I just have to work out how to stop becoming attached……I am like narc Velcro…….

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      3. Thank you. That’s so sad, can’t say i blame ya somedays. Feeling that deep hurts, even when it’s wonderful. Now i know why when i would push him with pure emotion he would react in rage! Stupid empath, crying because i know he can never feel those things. And no matter how pure my love is, it will never penetrate rock. Thanks again

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      4. The seat of misery! Wize words. After the misery I’ve seen, believe me, attachment is the last thing i want! Sad part is, i know i saw a couple of times him giving in, for a second. Then the coldest person I’ve ever seen would come to the foreground! A war raging with in himself, and me stuck in the middle of a battlefield. Ducking and weaving, between peace, and war! And all the while when he’s throwing the bombs at me, his only enemy is himself. I war that he will never win!

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      5. That statement really resonates attachment can cause pain but youre not fully living if you dont attach. Id never have my children if i hadnt attached or the people in my life i care deeply about. Even my furbaby who will pass away one day will cause pain but im glad i attached and experienced the love. Attachment can cause the greatest pain and it should bc that means they meant something to you.

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      6. OMG HG 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
        You could never love a fur baby , I have some of them and love them more than humans !! Proof narcs think they can get attached !! They certainly go to extraordinary lengths to avoid attachment considering they can’t get attached apparently !! 🤔

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      7. Thank you NA. As mentioned to RS, why not refer to is as what it is, or by it’s pet name, but fur baby?

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      8. I believe sex therapy is more than just sex. They work on your issues with being touched and intimacy… Something to consider.

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      9. What would I need sex therapy for? I am great at it.

        Lucky are those that get to find out first hand. (in the beginning, not after – those my heart goes out to)

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      10. The strollers nothing youve not heard my sucky talk lol i get a little carried away 😂 any other furmums will know what im talking about 😍🤗

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      11. HG,

        You are talking about a sex surrogate LMAO.

        They can be very useful in therapy.

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      12. No, the intimacy is not a feeling. It is a CONDITION. It is a closeness, that based on trust.

        You can get the intimacy with someone via friendship, love or sex.

        You and another person could be the best friends (without sex) and have the intimacy.

        You and another person could be the sex partners, but don’t have the intimacy at all.

        Depends.

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      13. Hello NoName!
        I understand what you mean by intimacy. In some way I see it as a condition but mostly as a state of matters : a linkage ( sharing) of each other’s boundaries in a reciprocating manner without losing one’s own boundaries. And I agree with you, it is not referred to just physical contact. You can have intimacy / share your boundaries without losing them with close friends,close family members and of course with your formal partner as well. And I agree with you is based on trust.

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      14. I think a lot of narcissists think intimacy is sex. They have sex with absolutely zero intimacy .

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      15. Hello Lisa!
        I agree with you…I do not think it is only the narcissists that have sex without intimacy..I think there are non-narcissists that do it as well. The only difference I think is that the narcissists are unable/unwilling to have intimacy in any of their entanglements with people in general

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      16. Yes exactly. Sex without intimacy is common for many reasons . However with the narcissist dynamic it is their inability or refusal which ever your views are on narcissists to have or experience intimacy . I knew the first couple of times I had sex with my N that something was off. I knew nothing of narcissism and felt like it was like having sex with someone that had no feelings for me . To begin with I thought he was commitment phobic and we’d only been seeing each other for a few months . Then when I started learning about appliances and how they objectify living things , I was so turned off by this I didn’t want to have sex with him at all. The fact that’s he’s victim N and has Madonna / whore going on , he doesn’t want sex with his long term partners anyway . I refuse to have fake sex or be an object . I know that he hates intimacy and has sexual issues . I also know that he would be perverted with a willing partner but I made it clear that was not on the cards . He was happy to have a formal relationship with me with no sex . Just crazy !! I told him you perform sex like it’s a porn movie and your directing it, there’s nothing real about it , strangely I knew this before I knew what a narcissist was . He’s more suited to prostitutes , hook ups and one night stands . But wants a long term formal partner for a number of other reasons none of them anything to do with a real relationship . It also makes him look more normal . It’s not as easy as it seems to be for HG to keep finding new suitable partners that tick the boxes for the N, specially as they get older

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      17. Can you clarify that? Finding actual partners is getting more difficult for you? I thought you always have a handful of secondary sources you can promote at a moment’s notice?

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      18. Read again “It also makes him look more normal . It’s not as easy as it seems to be for HG to keep finding new suitable partners that tick the boxes for the N, specially as they get older”

        Lisa notes I find it easy, but it is not as easy for others.

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      19. Hello Lisa!
        It is interesting to know how the narcissists function differently depending on which school they belong to…however it seems there is a common denominator among them.
        Mine was a Somatic Greater..so sex was very important to him. He had to show his superiority every time and he had to ensure that I thought he was good at it…otherwise it was like a big failure for him and wounded him.
        It seems though that for some schools sex is just another way of reinforcing the bond..but if they find another way that is more effective they can skip sex…not a big deal for them….
        Now that you mention prostitutes..I wonder what fuel do they get from them if any? I wonder as well if the high schools consider going to prostitutes below them?

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      20. HG would know what fuel they get from prostitutes , I suppose it could be control , it could be somatics that are mistaken for sex addicts or it could be sexual requirements that the stepford wife does not provide . I would imagine some narcs don’t like prostitutes for fuel as the prostitute is faking anyway , so not ideal fuel !!! Who knows. Lots of non narcs use prostitutes . When I said my N was more suited to prostitutes and hook ups , it’s not that I have evidence of this , it’s just that he does not then have to play the part that he has to try to sustain with a real girlfriend . Whatever way you look at it , sex with a narc is you being treated as a sexual object with no feelings behind the physical act so I didn’t want to partake in that . It’s not a case of me faking it and whether he knew or not it’s the narc that is faking it . Physical is physical I’m talking about the emotions behind it that are being faked . That’s not what I expect from my partner . I know some people seem to have had relationships with narcissists that sex played a huge role . Mine was not like that . As I say partly because when I realised what he was I didn’t want to and partly because he does not like sex that involves any kind of intimacy and can not sustain that long term. Victim N can be celibate within relationships with their partner they also have Madonna / Whore which is another reason why I say casual sex is easier for them and some of them just have sexual issues, He said to me you don’t like sex with me because I don’t make love and when I said what is the reason for that , he said he doesn’t know how to and that he struggles with it . I know he’s been like this in every relationship . But that’s not his image with the guys he goes drinking with or to football with !!!!
        I personally don’t want to be in a relationship with someone that has no feelings for me so I don’t really understand when people say they miss the sex. Wouldn’t you be better to just have a friend with benefits or hire a male escort , tell them what works for you and at least you know what your getting there’s no deceit and no broken hearts lol
        When they act like they can’t get enough of you and you think there’s this amazing sex thing going on it’s fake they do that with everyone they are seducing . Sad but true 😭

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      21. Hello Lisa!
        I totally agree with you. For them sex is just that:sex. For us,at least for most of us sex is not as making love. I felt as well very empty having sex with him.,.there was always something missing..so I wouldn’t call it great sex. I felt a real detachment from him and I started to step back. Perhaps some of us could feel this void or emptiness throughout the relationship not knowing then why it was like that but being aware of it.
        I felt emptier and emptier with time…I didn’t want to be there anymore.
        Concerning prostitutes I think HG answered once that they do not
        get so much fuel there since they fake…there is no real emotional response from them..
        I really do not know why..but honestly I am not so interested on finding out why some men ( narcissists or non-narcissits) do it..The only thing I know is that I just couldn’t be with a man that does that or that is unfaithful in any way.
        Thank you for sharing your story!

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      22. Re: men and prostitutes:
        The opportunity to experience their true desires with no judgement.
        No requirement for wining/dining/dating. Honest and direct- payment for service.
        Some men feel power and dominance over a whore – because a prostitute will to do anything they want (for the right amount of $$$).
        For some men, it reconfirms their hidden hatred of women.

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      23. Spot on
        So many reasons
        It always amazes me how there are millions of prostitutes working all over the world in every town 24 hours a day
        And yet so many people think their husband, son, brother , dad , neighbour , uncle Fred would never do this
        So who are all these men keeping these prostitutes busy daily , they must be landing from other planets and then flying back there again 🤔
        The use of prostitutes has little to do with narcissists or weird men , it covers a very wide range .

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      24. Thank you Love for your explanation…a truth that all know but still is the ultimate objectification of women . A perfect example of actually buying an “appliance”

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      25. …I fogot to mention that for the Cadre Somatics sex is used as a weapon..and in my case my ex being a Greater …it was hard to fake with him…I don’t like to fake ..but when I tried he knew exactly what I was trying to do.. The higher schools ( Greaters )are very good at spoting if you are genuine or not…they have the amazing ability of reading if you are genuine in what you say and what you do..

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      26. And if it did, realistically, what’s the worse that could happen? Surely nothing you couldn’t handle in one way or an other?

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      27. Now I want a Bloody Mary … extra spicy

        That’s my favorite drink … good choice 😎

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    2. Hello, SuperXena,

      Yes, the lack of intimacy is not a hallmark of the relationship with a Narc. The non-narc partners live without intimacy also and I see such examples every day.

      The people are afraid of intimacy for many reasons and I don’t judge them. Once established, the intimacy lasts to the END of your life.

      You both were the best friends, you shared your secrets, you poured your souls into one another, you laughed together, you cried together, you did crazy things together, you trusted to one another – you were the INTIMATE FRIENDS.

      But something bad happened. Something broke your friendship and now you are enemies – INTIMATE ENEMIES. You both can live in different cities, countries, continents, even planets, but you’ll always be INTIMATE.

      That’s what Tudor tryes to say all the way on this blog. “Our (Narc and Empath) relationship will last to the end (death)”. Tudor (read any Narc) establishes the ONE-SIDED type of intimacy. You are truly intimate with “him” and “he” is falsely intimate with you. And after “divorce” with “him” we have what we have – PAIN and INTIMACY, that last to the end. Our intimacy with “him” is a gateway for HOVER, by the way.

      No wonder why many people are afrad of intimacy. Too painful. Too risky. “I’ll never trust to anyone” phrase means “I’ll never be intimate with anyone again” and I don’t judge people for that.

      But.
      It isn’t so pessimistic as it sounds. We can “kill” the intimacy when it becomes the source of pain. This “weapon” is an INDIFFERENCE.

      Based on steady and healthy SELF-ESTEEM and SELF-ACCEPTANCE (“I’m good enough for myself and this world”), the indifference is very powerful and effective instrument.

      Of course, the indifference won’t kill your memories, you will remember everything, but it would be like a painless movie you watch on TV. Then you turn the TV set off an go to explore this interesting world without backward glance. You are free. And you can trust again.

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      1. Hello Noname!
        Thank you for your observations!
        Personally I do not think intimacy can be unilateral.
        What I mean is that I don’t think that what you felt with him was real intimacy..
        What I felt with my ex was a lack of reciprocity ( I love that word!) in many of my needs. So sometimes there was no real intimacy from my side either. Some of my needs he could reciprocate but many others he could not. Some of my needs were exchangeable but many others were not. This lack of intimacy made me step back and with time I was not motivated staying with him. It was like a natural process ( painful yes) of gradual detachment from him. Perhaps that was the reason why he reinstalled golden periods many times along the relationship.
        I think that intimacy can only be reached by allowing an intermittent intersection of small inner circles placed on different layers between two people. How intimate or close you get to the other one depends on which layer of the inner circle the intersection takes place : you are closer and more intimate as you approach the main inner circle ( that could be compared to the Inner Sanctum that HG describes in a narcissist).
        If you trust one enough, you allow the intersection of many circles with that person and in a deeper layer…but that does not mean that your circles will be destroyed..they will remain intact allowing this intersection.
        And I do not really think that is very common for people to allow all the way in to the main inner circle..
        I think that what happens in an abusive relationship is that your inner circles are sieged by the narcissist and they make them theirs..is like an “osmosis ” not an intersection. The thing is not allowing them to seize them as theirs…by establishing boundaries that shouldn’t be crossed!
        Well ..this is my Sunday evening theory of intimacy! Ha,ha…hope it makes sense..

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      2. It makes perfect sense, SuperXena!

        Agreed with you, that the real intimacy is always bilateral. I meant, that Narc creates the unilatetal intimacy, giving you his false “inner world” in exchange, but you THINK that this is a real thing. However, the intuition always “warns” you…

        Agreed with you, that the intimacy has several levels (layers in your terminology!). Complete and mutual openness between partners (including sexual openness) is very high level of intimacy.

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      3. Hello NoName!
        Good to know that it makes sense. I have named my theory as SuperXena’s Sunday Evening theory of intimacy. Well..that is the way I see the dynamics of intimacy…and I do believe that this intimacy is achievable in many different ways without transgressing own’s inner self.
        Completly agree with you: openness on different levels is the key of intimacy.!

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  10. Everytime i read this i try to understand how anyone could not want to be touched, cuddled with or be intimate. The only thing i can think of is the past sexual abuse. When someone violates you that way it really turns you off the act of being close and sex. It dirtys it. Ive had my own issues with that having endured sexual abuse but cuddling and closeness i enjoy. There are times i do like my space and dont want to be touched. The sexual abuse takes something very sacred from a person and makes them feel dirty and flawed. I can see how it really affected me years later. I forgive my abuser bc i suspect they had been abused in the same way knowing the family they were from. Still it leaves internal marks and changes how you feel about sex and bonding intimately.
    I can see it being used to hurt and punish someone. Its the highest form of rejection there is and really will destroy a relationship. Not many will put up long term being rejected this way and will either end the relationship or look elsewhere.

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    1. Unless my parents are holding out on me about something that happened during infancy, I can assure you that sexual abuse is NOT the only reason that someone can dislike touching and being touched. One of my first sentences when I was learning how to talk was actually “Don’t kiss me, I don’t like kisses!” 😀

      So what’s my reason? Honestly I don’t know. Neither did the doctors (though there were different theories). So I cannot tell you. But I can tell you how it feels.

      I can’t relax when being touched-every muscle in body tenses up. And if I like the person or need them to like me for some reason then I have to consciously work at pretending this is not happening and that I’m NOT struggling not to scream or push them away (when, no matter how close I am to the person, I absolutely am). So you could imagine all that faking it adds additional stress to an already difficult situation for me.

      I understand that you probably can’t imagine it though. I don’t think I can accurately imagine what it’s like to enjoy physical intimacy. Until reading the comment by Bliss about how it makes people feel “complete”, I imagined it would just feel kind of tingly.

      “Its the highest form of rejection there is”

      Jeez, it’s THAT painful for you? That’s so strange. Wouldn’t the HIGHEST form of rejection be like…someone walking out on you to be with your best friend after you catch them having sex in your marital bed? If that doesn’t seem like more of a rejection than someone just not wanting to touch you…I will officially NEVER understand people. 🙂

      And, at least in my case, it’s never meant as a rejection. But when I try to explain that to most people it’s like they don’t believe me and are hurt anyway.

      “Not many will put up long term being rejected this way and will either end the relationship or look elsewhere.”

      THIS I am painfully aware of. The only person who it doesn’t seem to bother at all is my father (narcissist). When I told him that my pretending to have sort of gotten over my aversion to it was all an act (hey, I had to get out of therapy SOMEHOW :D), his response was basically that it didn’t surprise him and has never touched me since. After this article I’m wondering if he feels the same way, or is at the very least indifferent to it, and is simply better at hiding it. Especially after looking at these comments…it seems like most people would have had a serious issue and that his reaction was definitely not the norm.

      Also, I just want to say that I’m so sorry you were abused and I’m glad you were able to make your peace with it. You’re obviously a really strong person to be able to do that. 🙂

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      1. Hi june…ty so much for your post it really gave me a lot to think about.
        First off i do and i dont understand not wanting to be touched. I do in the regard that i have a condition called sensory perception disorder and its when certain types of touch is perceived as painful. For instance i cant wear metal of any sort on my skin its incredible painful. I only wear rings. To have a necklace on would drive me bonkers. It really bothers me. Also early morning i dont like to be held close it really annoys me and feels similiar in discomfort. I also cant wear anything scratchy and only certain fabrics i can tolerate. Im not sure if this is the same or its more from an emotional standpoint why touch bothers you but i can relate in that regard. As far as HG im only speculating about the abuse from my own situation but only he knows why.
        Youre right there are other higher forms of rejection but when you love someone and want to have a sexual relationship with them and they arent the same it creates a huge void and a very painful one. It does feel like terrible rejection. The scenerio you presented is worse tho and im so sorry if you experienced that 🙁
        Its interesting you raise the point from a young age you had an aversion to touch. In your therapy did they ever mention sensory perception disorder? I learned of it thru my autistic son. Many with autism have it but you dont have to have autism to suffer from it which has been my case. I also feel pain from the cold. I really dread winter and stay indoors a lot. Its maybe something to look into? It really can interfere in many areas of life. Theres also different levels of severity id say mine is moderate.
        As far as sexually some people are asexual and just dont feel the need or want for sex. Im not sure if this is my hubbys case but from day 1 he seemed low key sexually.
        Thanks again for your post 🙂

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      2. Narc Affair-

        Yeah, those conditions (Sensory Perception Disorder and/or Asperger’s) were some of the possible explanations the doctors gave. They never could quite settle on one diagnosis. Besides my aversion to touch, I was just a weird kid…lots of bizarre quirks. That’s why I was in therapy as a kid…until I got sick of it, and pretended to “get better” as best as I was able. (I just couldn’t take that dang therapy brush anymore! Being brushed…SLOWLY…with that every day was like a form of psychological torture. :D)

        I don’t think my father ever believed me, but he never called me on the lie either. It was much more amusing for him to give me these long, almost painfully-tight hugs in front of people and watch me try to hide my obvious discomfort. He’s told me my facial expressions when I’m uncomfortable or scared are both highly expressive and hilarious.

        My other oddities are mostly mild and borderline, so I’m totally functional (though if you met me in person you might find me a little strange). But the touch aversion is…probably pretty severe.

        No, that situation never happened to me (thank the gods). It was a story my father told me about, and I always thought it sounded like the ultimate betrayal. I’m actually only 21-too young to have been married! 😀

        I don’t quite understand how someone can still feel rejected after knowing that the other person is not trying to reject them, but I’ve definitely observed it and I believe you.

        And yeah, I’ve read your posts about how the sexless relationship with your husband is what motivated you to have the affair, despite loving him. I’m kind of terrified I’ll end up on your husband’s end of a situation like that someday. Or else end up with a cerebral narc (intelligent, intellectual, curious about the world, couldn’t care less about the physical stuff…if it wasn’t for that whole narcissistic abuse thing I’d be trying to find one ASAP).

        I’m happy I made you think. 😀 Reading your comments has made me think as well, and helped me stop, um, painting people who have affairs black (as HG would put it), which started after finding out about my parents’ infidelities.

        Just curious…have you ever tried talking to your husband about your feelings about the lack of intimacy? I imagine it wouldn’t be an easy conversation to have, but maybe you two could come to some sort of compromise. 🙂

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      3. It sounds to me that you are a HSP… HIghly Sensitive Person and yes, it is a diagnosis. It can be “feeling” orientated and or physically orientated

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      4. Hi june…youre very young and have experienced a lot. The “brush” lol that makes me laugh not bc of your experience with it but looking back to when my son was about 3 they wanted to use a brush therapy protocol. I think in lower functioning autism where you have no other choices and behaviours are extreme possibly but there was no way i could keep that up. It was if i remember a full brushing every hour. I modified it to arms and hands a few times a day bc his sensitivities were mostly his hands touching wet foods. We also did exposure therapy. Imo exposure helped a bit but i think these sensitivities are a part of the persons neurological makeup. For me i just dont wear much jewellery and avoid the things that bother me but i can see where physical touch isnt as easy especially in a relationship.
        As far as sexless relationships im sure there are many out there that would openly be looking for that type of relationship and i think honesty is best. Im the total opposite i need sex. My hubby and i have had sex but its so infrequent and we are so very different in that regard. Weve tried counselling and may do so again but the bottom line is we are different and i dont want to force him to be something hes not. A bit like forcing a narcissist not to be one. Hes not a narcissist thankfully.
        Im glad my posts help you to see infidelity differently but it is still wrong. I didnt enter into it with intentions of being deceitful or to hurt anyone but it has the capacity to do that 🙁
        Dont be too hard on yourself with your quirks were all different and its how you are. Modification can be an answer in many cases. Instead of a long drawn out hug tell the person you like short hugs. You have that right to be honest and tell people this about yourself and it educates as well 🙂

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  11. With marmalade. 😉

    Not sure who to feel more sorry for in this one, the empath who cried lonely tears or narc who could never know how complete it feels having someone to have and to hold.

    The greater I experienced was just like this, used it to gain fuel from me. Mid range narc could never get enough of cuddling, I often got sick of them and was often shrugging him off. Narc-y me for doing that? Or narc-y him because he knows I’m sick of his cuddles so he deliberately does more.

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      1. This is our downfall we are unwilling to accept what is in front of our face . Then on top of that we have HG telling us and we still refuse to accept and try to think that deeply down HG is not really like this . We are our own worst enemies , just like the narcissist is they’re own enemy time and time again , repeating distructive behaviours and never learning . I wonder sometimes , if our refusal to accept they don’t love us or care about us , is narcissistic because it’s very ego driven . Emotionally healthy people don’t tolerate this shit and they don’t attach to it because they value themselves more .

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  12. My ex narc was so touchy and into physical displays of affection it drove me insane. I could never have space in bed – always spooning, hand on mine or on my hip. I always rebelled and made it clear it was annoying and then was told there’s something wrong with me, I don’t like and show affection enough. It lasted pretty much the entire relationship but in the last year was very hit or miss.

    Is that abnormal for a narc?

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      1. Not to question what you’re saying but 10 years of that is still seduction? Because we fought and had a horrible last 5 years together, real deal mental/emotional abuse. We hated each other 98% of the time… but his need for touch and affection still continued.

        So I guess i don’t understand how it’s seduction if it actually annoyed me and I rejected it constantly?

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      2. Ah, now you have provided me with more information, he did it at first as part of the seduction and then when he realised it annoyed you he continued to do it for the purposes of gaining negative fuel (during the last 5 years) and when it tapered off it was probably as a result of you not reacting the way you usually did (thus he found the manipulation was not as effective) and/or he was distracted elsewhere.

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    1. Hello kq,
      I recognise what you are describing. My ex was extremely physical. For him cuddling and spooning was extremely important.It was not just durng the seduction but throughout all the relationship. It puzzled me as well since I have understood that some are not so much for this( differing among the narcissists) but now I understand that he did it to create a strong bond at the beginning and to reinforce it during the relationship. I think they do whatever is required make the bond stronger.

      When I read your comment , I think you describe yourself as not being so “physical “? In my case I think he was just mirroring me …
      Something that I noticed as well was that every night before sleeping, he had like a “ritual”: he had to hold me tight and hold my hand before sleeping…if I didn’t want to, it meant to him that something was wrong…it was like his own way of checking out that everything was under control and all right before sleeping..Sometimes I wonder if he was weary of falling asleep..like he was about to lose control..

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      1. Yes, I’m not “physical” in the sense where I crave or want to hold hands, snuggle or make out. I wasn’t really hugged as a child, I’m positive as a baby and toddler I was, but I have no memories of physical touch from my parents in my youth. I’m good with it, I don’t feel like it’s a problem. “Physical” in the other sense? We never had any problems in that department.

        I very much relate to the hand holding before sleeping.. mine did this too. For a few years I thought it was a sweet and weird quirk, but very inconvenient and annoying none the less. In the last year or two, I can recall the last time it happened actually, it felt sad, pathetic and controlling. Just strange.

        I’ve never thought of it as a way for them to gauge us, could have been. Interesting!

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      2. Hello kq!
        Thank you for sharing. It is good to know that this behaviour is present among other narcissists perhaps not being a trade mark for them: different needs of fuel ,different strategies. I experienced this ritual of holding hands and spooning before falling asleep strange and uncomfortable sometimes..specially when all this pull and push and fights/discussions took place over a day…doing this was awkward…like all the fights had been forgetten and everything was as usual …now I know they can do this due to the compartmentalisation they apply…

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      1. I have I’ve got that book , so I would say the answer is NO. Fuel from us doesn’t count that’s not the same thing as you enjoying it. I don’t know how you manage it if you don’t like being touched

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  13. Hello HG,

    Interesting statement: ” Attachment is the seat of misery”.
    I assume that this statement arises only from your observations since you have not allowed yourself to be attached emotionally to someone?
    I understand that you have observed that an emotional attachment sometimes brings pain. But have you considered that it brings as well some other positive things? ( upsides):
    Attachment brings:
    1. Continuity. There is no need to burn bridges and building new ones all the time. Attachment makes the existing bridge(s) to be stronger ,steady and permanent. Making yourself stronger and not weaker.
    2. It brings as a consequence of the former, legacy( as an example: the attachment to my children and close friends is going to remain even when one dies)
    3. It brings personal development and permanent inner growth that leads to self fuelling.

    So: If you do not want to be attached to someone because of the fear of being wounded( allowing someone invade your inner sanctum):
    A) how do you know that the possible wound of becoming attached is greater than the narcissistic wound?( haven’t you considered that it could be less harmful?)
    B) what are the “upsides” of not getting attached according to you? In comparison to the upsides of becoming attached?
    C) Is it fear the reason why you do not want to be attached or is it because you are unable to do it?
    D) Have you ever allowed yourself to be attached emotionally to someone ?

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    1. Hello SuperXena,

      Thank you for your observations. By way of response :-

      1. I note this, but continuity is not such an issue for me because of the constitution of my fuel matrix and the ease by which I acquire new victims;
      2. Noted. I have my legacy in hand however.
      3. I already gain fuel my way.

      A. I have witnessed what happens to people who attach – see “Attachment Is The Seat Of Misery”.
      B. See “Attachment Is The Seat Of Misery”.
      C. It is because on a cost-benefit analysis I regard attachment as problematic and a lack of attachment entirely conducive to enabling me to achieve my aims.
      D. I believe so. It is hard to remember now.

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      1. Your welcome HG and thank you for your answers. They are indeed two different perspectives. I could continue endlessly asking you questions but I think I get the idea of how you function now regarding certain aspects.
        Although it would be interesting if you could describe your feelings of once allowing yourself being emotionally attached to someone, when/if you recall more about it and if you are willing to share it.

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      2. Hg …im always interested reading your point of view bc it differs so much from mine and others on here being from a narcissistic standpoint. Youd mentioned in other posts its a matter of perception and theres no truths. I think thats what youd said. Its really stuck in my mind. I feel so strongly there is a truth. Attachment is the reason were here its not to operate thru life its to attach. When im on my deathbed i want to look back at my life and know i had meaningful attachments and they added to my life and who i am. I feel heartbroken for you and others who are aiming to operate thru life and wont have that. Maybe its coming from my perception but that i feel thats the whole point of life is our attachments.

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  14. Hi HG, thanks for your response. I’m sure you are amazing in bed, but I was referring to sex therapy for lessons in intimacy, because although you say it’s the seat of misery, letting intimacy into your life is not a perceived weakness but a genuine strength. Sex therapy can explore intimacy which can be extremely beneficial.

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  15. Every single word true. I’ll never forget the night that he made it painfully obvious that he wanted me to feel the cold. I jumped out of bed and went to my own place, angry. Now I know that just tickled him pink.

    Then a couple of years later he remarked that I never try to hug him – – then he came to his senses and admitted that he set it up that way. God! Narcs make me tired!

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  16. I have a question, HG. I am not responding to narc when he has reached out – – the few times he has Dash – and I do not contact him. I look back in horror at the way I was treated and never ever want to become involved with a narcissist again in my life.

    Now here’s the question: what do you think it’s still in me that would make me up a fault your comments like “no. Staying savage,” especially after reading this post, which brought tears to my eyes and made me remember this treatment clearly?

    It makes me afraid if I haven’t been “exercise” enough because I find your unabashed bold pride in who you are very attractive. Makes me feel like a crazy person.

    Is having any admiration for you, as a narc, mean that I remain susceptible still to narcissistic abuse?

    Sorry the question was so long, but I really hope you’ll give me a little insight, please.

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    1. Hello MN, I suspect you dictated your comment as it doesn’t make sense in parts. If you would be so kind as to re-phrase it, I will then answer it.

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    2. I did dictate parts of it. Apologies for the confusion.

      I find your answers — like “staying savage” — somehow exciting. I upvote most of your ice-cold responses for the same reason.

      The question: even though I’ve overcome my addiction to ex narc, I wonder if this predilection to find your mindset sexually enticing leaving me open to another narc relationship. In a broader sense, it’s not about the person, but the attributes that I’m finding tantalizing.

      No contact and discipline, as you advised, works to get over a narc involvement, but do you have a book that will help one get over the attraction to people with narcissistic traits?

      Please help. Thank you.

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  17. Lisa: “I told him you perform sex like it’s a porn movie and your directing it, there’s nothing real about it , strangely I knew this before I knew what a narcissist was”. I never TOLD him this, but I always THOUGHT it. A lot of the time he would video us. I never should have let him do that, and I will never let anyone else do it again.

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    1. Yeah that’s not good the filming . I told my N everything but that threw me a bit as well , because he did not go into a rage about it . We talked about it extensively and he read a lot about it while with me and 10 years prior to meeting me . Which I only found out near the end of the relationship . The fact he was so open to talking about it made me question whether it was just N Traits as he insisted it was and that he was not a full blown narcissist . What I came to realise was that he enjoyed the attention of discussing and analysis of himself . Anything that meant talking about him him him him him him him ! He knows I know …….

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      1. Filming – god only know where THOSE went! When I told him I knew what he was he didn’t deny it. He always seemed haughty and proud of that fact. I think they all do. They do, indeed, love talking about themselves. I had him on the phone once and was talking about inner reflection and he hung up on me. The next day when I asked him why he did that he said “I just automatically tune that shit out”. I since learned that they think everything they do is perfect and no need for reflection. LOL

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      2. Earlier on in the relationship after a silent period for a few weeks, when JN reappeared, I asked how he used the time to self-reflect. I got the same answer. No need for it whatsoever.
        #Narcplaybook

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      3. Hi robin…self reflection is like sprinkling holy water on them they hate it! My narc doesnt get angry but he gets quiet and its obvious he has zero interest in that depth of discussion. He will reflect a bit on others like his family members but even there hes very private.

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    2. Robin, They are on the internet somewhere. Black market.
      Never in my life would I ever agree to film nor let them walk out with it if I did.

      If I was ever filmed it was without my knowledge. I think back and just don’t see it in the situations.

      1+
  18. Mine has turned his back in bed since I was snared, but it doesn’t bother me because I don’t like the suffocation feeling cuddling causes. I do/did hate being turned down when I reached out for sex, though, that was crushing.
    Oddly, no matter what has happened, he gives the peck kiss goodbye/goodnight, but claims he hates kissing.
    Before I moved out, sex 3 times in 6 months. Back for chats, sex 3 times in 4 days. I’m actually not minding that at all, because I can’t imagine sex with anyone else, nor do I want that.

    I have to be crazy, this is the man who’s used every bit of information I’ve ever told him against me to cause psychological harm.

    Childhood sexual abuse (your fault)
    Loss of a husband (You’re in love with a dead man)
    Loss of a child (you’re a bad mother)
    Divorce (your fault)
    Work (everyone hates you)
    List could go on, but I know I’m not alone with my list now.

    I still want him.
    I still feel like I’m going down that slippery slope and can’t stop me.
    I still feel sorry for him.
    I still feel like I can…fill in the blank.
    He’s my Achilles heel.
    No one understands why I’m having trouble walking away.

    Ugh…didnt mean to whine. But it is what it is.

    3+
    1. Hi oops
      I do understand bc they inject the feel good drugs but then they devalue so its a rollercoaster ride of addiction. I think as time goes on the scale tips tho and the feel good doesnt feel as good as it used to and the fog lifts and you see more reaskns why you should go.

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  19. I read somewhere that if you want to spot a narc, ask them what they would change about themselves if they could. They say nothing, they are a narc .😄😜

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      1. I honestly think it’s the smaller things you have to look out for , I think we all know the obvious now . But there are men that are full of themselves or that talk badly about there exes or that are not nice when they’ve had too much to drink or are very seductive when chasing a new woman they are infatuated with , and they are not narcissists . If you have all of this lol and it’s extreme then that might ring alarm bells . It was the smaller things that I learnt from HG that helped me and you will not read it any where else . I know this is not applicable to all narcs But with mine
        For example
        The red hot and ice cold thing
        Every conversation goes back to him him
        Word salad even when they are being nice , they contradict themselves A Lot
        Another thing that I read on this blog from HG was some of them talk way too much in unnecessary situations . Like to the barman , to the waiter , to someone in a lift , mine did this it was ridiculous
        Try asking the questions HG talks about in the post about it, the one that talks about their favourite toy or their childhood or parents
        It’s amazing how accurate this information is

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      2. You need to make a list deciphering all the codes you use (IPPS, IPSS, FR etc) because when you describe what you do, using them, I am lost.

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    1. I’m not sure about that I think it depends on the type of narcissist your dealing with, a victim narcissist may give a different response , but whatever the answer would be , any mistakes or regrets would be someone else’s fault and any changes for the future would be fake lol

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      1. HG, what’s the longest you’ve ever gone before you did a benign Hoover on an intimate partner that you still wanted to get back the formal relationship with if other Hoover attempts had been ignored and they’d escaped ?

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      2. Hi Lisa, if someone has attempted to escape me then first of all comes the Preventative Hoover. This always works. If however they have been a real traitor and escaped without telling me, then comes the Initial Grand Hoover to bring them back into the Formal Relationship.

        Thereafter I do not bring them back into the FR as I operate a Nomadic approach, I hoover for fuel and benefits, not to resurrect the FR. I seek out fresh prey for that.

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