The Stepford Devaluation

 

The devaluation of our appliances depends on a variety of factors. For instance, what type of narcissist is applying the devaluation, what is the nature of the appliance (IPPS, IPSS, NISS, TS etc) , what is the status of the narcissist’s fuel matrix, what is the position of the façade and other matters beyond that also.

With a Tertiary Source, there is no long lasting relationship to begin with and therefore any devaluation which takes place will be short and effective and is often done in the context of triangulation, for instance making the narcissist look good in front of say a new target (IPSS) or a group of friends (NISSs) by putting down the Tertiary Source as part of the devaluation.

Secondary Sources have two types of devaluation. Corrective and Dis-Engagement. The Corrective Devaluation is short in nature but can be rather savage and is designed to bring the malfunctioning secondary source appliance back into line. Thus, it might be ostracising a friend (NISS) by inviting everybody else to a BBQ but not the offending appliance. Recognising that he or she has offended the narcissist in some way, the NISS apologises, makes amends and ceases the troublesome activity which led to the Corrective Devaluation. Thus the Corrective Devaluation has proven effective and the NISS enjoys the golden period once again and is welcomed back into the fold. Should the NISS not respond to the Corrective Devaluation (or commits a particularly treacherous act at the outset) then a short Dis-Engagement Devaluation occurs and the secondary appliance is then dis-engaged from. The DED does not last for long because the narcissist and the secondary appliance will not see one another repeatedly (unlike the IPPS) and also because the narcissist can dis-engage from the secondary source readily and either turn to other pre-existing secondary sources (dependent on the size of the fuel matrix) or recruit a replacement with relative ease.

The phase of devaluation really earns its stripes when applied to intimate partners (IPSS or DLS) but especially the IPPS. The devaluation of the IPPS is the one which most commentators focus on and is usually the one which contains abusive treatment and the full horror of nasty manipulations from the narcissist. There is no denying that such an unpleasant devaluation occurs, but it is but just one of several forms of devaluation that is deployed against the IPPS. Other forms include The Stranger Zone, The Oblivious Mis-Treatment, The Full Horror and others besides. Within the devaluation of the IPPS there is also the Stepford Devaluation.

You may be familiar with the novel (and film) The Stepford Wives. Ira Levin’s novel follows the premise whereby a new arrival at the idyllic neighbourhood of Stepford begins to suspect that the wives who live there and are frighteningly submissive are actually robots created at the behest of their privileged and controlling husbands. This resulted in the term ‘Stepford Wife’ being used in the English language to describe a submissive wife (or partner) who appears to conform blindly to a stereo-typically old-fashioned subservient role in the relationship with her husband or partner. It may also refer to an accomplished woman who has sub-ordinated her life and/or career to her husband’s interests and who has affected submission to him even in the face of his own disgrace and poor behaviour.

A Stepford Devaluation is one form of the devaluation of the IPPS. Often, the relevant victim fails to recognise that she is being devalued because of the nature of this devaluation. The following traits are applicable to the Stepford Devaluation.

  1. It only ever applies to the person who is the Intimate Partner Primary Source of the narcissist.
  2. The IPPS is likely to have an almost idyllic lifestyle. The narcissist is usually Mid Range or Greater in nature (possibly Upper Lesser also). There is financial security and a superior lifestyle encompassing good house, clothing, dining out, gifts etc.
  3. The narcissist and IPPS are regarded as having an excellent marriage/relationship by external observers such as family, friends and neighbours.
  4. The narcissist and IPPS are regarded as having an enviable lifestyle by external observers.
  5. The IPPS may work, but this is not always the case. The IPPS does not need to work because the narcissist’s financial firepower is sufficient to avoid the financial necessity of the IPPS having to work (and in turn remove financial independence and create isolation). If the IPPS does work, their work will be regarded as unimportant and unnecessary by the narcissist who will take little interest in it and refer to it rather patronisingly. The narcissist will expect the IPPS to fulfil other duties (see below) on top of the IPPS’ professional commitments. The narcissist whilst varying between disparaging and dismissive about the IPPS’ job in private, will hold it out as an admirable element as he seizes it as a character trait to draw fuel from secondary and tertiary sources and to use as part of the façade. More usually, the IPPS will be ‘allowed’ a ‘window dressing’ role as occasionally helping out a charity shop, or sitting on a couple of infrequent ‘good works’ committees. The narcissist regards these as acceptable since they contribute to the façade and do not interfere with the IPPS’ other duties (see below) to the narcissist. The narcissist prefers that the IPPS does not work.
  6. The IPPS has or had an accomplished position of employment. If retained it is treated dismissively by the narcissist as explained above or more likely the narcissist will have engineered the giving up of this position. This will have been achieved through apparently benign reasons but is done in order to create submission, remove independence and remove distraction and support networks.
  7. The IPPS is expected to be a superb home-maker. Whilst domestic assistance may be permitted, the narcissist expects a pristine residence of show-home proportions. The home would not look out of place on the front cover of Interior Design or Elle Décor. The IPPS prides herself on such an achievement and strives to ensure that nothing is out of place in the home.
  8. The IPPS is expected to always be presentable. She will be beautifully dressed, hair done, make-up worn, nails manicured and will never be seen slumming it in track pants and sweat top. Any slight deviation from picture perfection will be picked up and commented on by the narcissist. Similar to the situation concerning the home, the IPPS will ensure that she presents as elegant and refined at all times.
  9. The IPPS is expected to play the role of convivial hostess at dinner parties, encouraging mother at school events and loyal housewife putting up with the narcissist’s demands for perfection.
  10. The IPPS is expected to be wholly submissive to the needs and demands of the narcissist in creating this idyll and portrayal of domestic privilege and bliss to the outside world. No dissention is accepted by the narcissist.
  11. The IPPS ‘enjoys’ a gilded existence. She wants for nothing in terms of money, prestige, acknowledgement by external observers, admiration and friendship by third parties. She gratefully accepts that she is a ‘lucky girl’ to have what she has and does not like to complain. She may have done so to begin with, but the irrepressible force of the narcissist’s demands brings about the desired submission.
  12. The narcissist’s demand for perfection means that part of the Stepford Devaluation manifests through the imposition of this desire for perfection and adverse response if it is not achieved. However, such is the nature of the relevant narcissist and also the extent of the compliance, that the narcissist does not have to devalue in any savage way. It will either be a remark (“I see the children have been active”) when referring to the house appearing untidy or the imposition of a silent treatment (Present or Absent) to express disapproval at a failing on the part of the IPPS. The usual range of manipulations applied during devaluation will be absent.
  13. The narcissist generally treats the IPPS ‘well’ in terms of engaging in conversation, doing activities together and maintaining the façade of the enviable home life.
  14. Whilst you may see this existence as demanding, you may also see that it has its rewards and the extent of the devaluation whilst unacceptable to you is nowhere near as bad as it could be. This is where the second strand of the Stepford Devaluation applies. The narcissist repeatedly engages in infidelity with IPSSs and has an extensive ‘stable’ of those he turns to. He will repeatedly have ‘golfing weekends away’, ‘business trips’ or a ‘late meeting which necessitates staying over in town’. The IPPS knows that the narcissist is engaging in repeated affairs and one-night stands. The IPSSs or IPTSs are never, ever brought to the marital home (that would damage the façade). The IPSSs and/or IPTSs may even contact the IPPS to try to expose the narcissist and the IPPS will listen to these tales of infidelity and poor treatment of the IPSSs and/or IPTSs.
  15. The narcissist will hold the IPPS up as a shining example of the good wife/partner and will often be disparaging about other women, picking fault with their behaviour, looks, occupations and so forth. Comments are made such as

“Thanks goodness I have you, yes darling?”

“I was right to pick you.”

“They disgust me, such whores and lowlifes.”

  1. The narcissist reveres the IPPS because she has created the stable and enviable home, she contributes to his impressive façade and he is allowed to do as he pleases through extensive engagements outside of his marriage. He may have long standing affairs, short affairs, intermittent Dirty Little Secrets, in fact all types and forms of extra-marital liaison but he will never leave the IPPS. None of them ever compare to the IPPS.
  2. The IPPS is expected to be totally compliant, never complain, always be supportive, always be presentable, always put the narcissist first and in return she is largely treated ‘well’ (in the eyes of the narcissist and third parties) but her devaluation occurs through two main strands
    1. A very high standard of compliance; and
    2. The total acceptance that her husband/partner is engaging sexually with various other appliances and will always do so.

 

  1. How does this Stepford Devaluation operate in terms of fuel for the narcissist? This is where there is something of a peculiarity. The IPPS will provide negative fuel (at first) when the devaluation first begins and she learns of the affairs and is also subjected to the controlling behaviour vis a vis appearances. She will initially fight back, rebel, be hurt etc and thus provide negative fuel. However, once the narcissist has effectively ‘broken’ her in, by achieving compliance, the IPPS provides positive fuel to the narcissist through her striving to maintain the idyllic appearance, her support in his endeavours and the maintenance of the façade and it is the IPSSs and IPTSs who will suffer horrendous treatment at the hands of the narcissist. The narcissist, being usually a Greater, or an Upper Mid Ranger most of the time in this arrangement (although it can occur with MMR and UL) has no problem in ensnaring mistress after mistress, booty call after booty call and so on and it is here that they are treated to the malice (with the Greater) and also the devaluation in order to gain negative fuel from them, in contrast to the (largely) positive fuel now provided by the IPPS. The Stepford Devaluation is part of the Madonna-Whore concept. The narcissist may engage in intimate relations with the IPPS still but it is not often and the IPPS may actually be cold sexually and be perfectly happy to be left alone in that respect, content for the IPSSs/IPTSs to bear the brunt of her husband’s devaluing perversions.
  2. Only a particular type of empathic individual is able to perform this role and endure it, which comes as a consequence of their own particular traits, their susceptibility to the overtures of the type of narcissist who engages in this behaviour and the fact that she is ultimately conditioned to see her position as one which ‘could be far worse if I was honest’. She is brain-washed, controlled and ultimately the automaton which was so desired in the Stepford Wives.
9+
Advertisements

137 thoughts on “The Stepford Devaluation”

  1. HG but you always say that discard is inevitable….So why does this stepford IPPS not get discarded and her fuel stale? It actually sounds as if he kind of love her…

    0
    1. Oh there will be a dis-enagagement eventually. It is however a dynamic where the devaluation can run for many years without dis-engagement 10,25,20 years but then the dis-engagement will happen, usually for a younger, more compliant, more energetic model of appliance.

      4+
  2. I like that film the original one with Katherine Ross , wasn’t so keen on the remake . I used to say to my narc all the time you need a stepford woman you don’t want an actual human , he had no idea what I was talking about he’s never seen or heard of the film or so he says. I suggested a blow up doll also rather than a partner. These amazing robots now exist and I’m sure in years to come it will be common place for people to own them , they are quite pricey at the moment . All narcissists problems will be solved. A beautiful appliance that does not have any malfunctions .
    I could live that life if someone was loaded and I didn’t have to see them much !!

    2+
  3. Oh my God. Every word of this could’ve described my mother and her life with my father. Creepy.

    “Only a particular type of empathetic individual is able to perform this role and endure it”

    Which type is that?

    1+
  4. Very interesting! If anyones watched the sopranos series tony sopranos wife would be a stepford wife. You really see the whole dynamic between tony being a greater narcissist and his wife being a stepford wife. Its fascinating to watch but even moreso after reading these blogs and seeing it there on screen.
    Tonys wife has the idyllic life and keeps a pristine home, works out and dresses fashionable, kids in best private school, hosts dinner parties and puts on the perfect family facade yet you see her behind the scenes how desperately unhappy she is. She has dreams and tony helps somewhat to fulfill those dreams in pacifying her. I really feel he loved his wife the only way he knew how to love her but he was a narcissist and had serious issues. His role as the big boss in the mafia his wife played ignorant of and also his many affairs. She sold herself to the devil and deep down it was not fulfilling her. She was tonys madonna whore in that their sex was tapered off and he regarded her as his perfect wife unblemished mother of his children but he being a narcissist still needed that constant new fuel and affairs on the side.
    I never seen her blatantly devalued but on essence she was in that she was expected to cater to that perfect home and family AND ignore the fact her husband was a murderer and constant cheater.

    4+
    1. I agree with Narc Affairs assessment of Tony Sopranos wife. She chose, she ignored, she accepted. She knew what he did. How is that being conditioned and controlled?. Pfftt….that is what we usually refer to as a kept woman, but they are far from blind or stupid. They can be as manipulating as the narcissist. Why do people feed into this being such control by the narcissist when it clearly is not? Is it because then they can be viewed as a victim instead of the selfish, egotistical, manipulator, and plotter that she really is? I know some of these women and they went in with their eyes wide open. Balls to being controlled-most of these women go after these men knowing full well how it will be because they are too pathetic to do for themselves and that is the price. Control by him my ass-its her choice.

      3+
      1. There’s truth in what you say , all mafia wives are in those roles as our many women in society . Some through lack of confidence or means and some generational . But also many choose it because they are incapable of standing on their own two feet and need a man to support them and give them the whole facade that they also crave .

        1+
      2. Ive heard the term active codependant and passive codependant and active would describe tonys wife. She knows yet she stays. She is also controlling him by doing everything he wants and turning a blind eye to the horrific things hes doing.
        Passive would wither away and breakdown eventually not able to handle the realities of his double life.
        Ive seen these stepford types act as midrange narcs too.

        2+
      3. Hi sue…i took tonys wife to be a codependant but possibly a dirty one in the way she can overlook what he does to keep what she wants which is him and the lifestyle.

        0
    2. Narc Affair — great observation.

      I realize now that same dynamic with Don and his wife on Mad Men. In fact, was there a relationship on that show that didn’t operate under that schema? I never picked up on it until this post.

      1+
  5. Oh no, I was a stepford / narcford wife?! Who’d have thought. I remember how he loved taking me to places to show me off and yes he was disparaging about other women. Everything is spot on. The only bit that didn’t fit my mid ranger was that he would never let me quit my job because I earned enough for him to show off to others that I did and still manage to run a “perfect” household and look good. Ugh. Hate narcs.

    I didn’t think there were many in my position (looks the perfect couple, enviable lifestyle, I always appeared happy and content, hid my misery and tears due to abuse, fear, devaluation) but guess there must be plenty. Why do narcs exist?

    2+
  6. I suppose your way of thinking and need to maintain superiority does not allow you to grasp that all but a few of those women are not conditioned or controlled into operating the way they do. They have negotiated with themselves to accept this contract for purposes much like the narcissist-for facade and residual benefits. She has weighed both what she feels she can attain at her own hand and also that which she is being offered by this arrangement. She may be of the opinion of the old saying ” You can love a rich man as well as a poor one” , as many of them tried the latter and it failed. Why not be able to stay home with their children and be able to offer them an excellent education and exciting world experiences in exchange for what you refer to as “a very high standard of compliance”. It appears through your writing that you have enjoyed privledge financially in your upbringing and that your Mother enjoyed it as well, so you can be excused for not realizing to what extent this is expected of most women in their average and below average income households, and that there are many who acheive high standards only to have their partners stray sexually and without the benefits that wealth brings. So there are MANY who will accept this arrangement with an eye to bettering their own position and believing it to be better for their children than struggling financially. They may feel that both are a struggle so why not have all of the residual benefits you offer and vow to be there for their children when you are not (lots of fathers are not present for their children no matter the income or success). She enjoys the status and trappings of wealth along with your absences, and is not expected much of sexually given your frequent playdates (which she knows will likely be discreet due to keeping up the facade). That is not submission, compliance, or Stepford anything. It is what she accepts as the price she will pay for what she gets in return. She sets her own price and her own terms on how far she will go, which may be the whole nine yards or more likely until she grows tired of you, has established her own reputation as what you have held her up to be-a shining example of a wife/partner, and another of your kind comes along as they inevitably do (no allegiance to your own kind and all that). Nothing to do with your control. It is a contract she accepts to acheive her own aims. While your view is interesting as always, it is not the only one-just the one you choose to see for obvious reasons.

    9+
    1. NarcAngel, if I was a lesbian I would ask you to run away with me.
      I enjoy your post. I am that very one you just wrote about. Let me count the ways! Love is a facade and it is all about what we really are after.

      4+
    2. NarcAngel,

      Although I agree with what you are saying, (very well written and communicated by the way), What you describe sounds like a Narcissistic wife not an empathic one. And if she is empathic, she has severely suppressed that part of her. Both views have the woman in a position void of having love in their marriage. Your post seems to be implying that a woman who holds your view is less unhappy because she is “in control” but I see that woman no better that the other.

      “That is not submission, compliance, or Stepford anything. It is what she accepts as the price she will pay for what she gets in return.”
      What you said here is true… everything you said makes perfect sense. But who really wants to live like this? There is no way that an empathic person, no matter how strong they are, deep down doesn’t want to have a fulfilling life of love and relationship with someone for not only themselves but for their children. We were all created for relationship. Anyone who says differently is lying or deluding themselves.
      Women who find themselves in these relationships are lonely and unfulfilled no matter who is seems on the outside and the evidence of that will come out and show itself eventually. The manifestations of that may differ but they will be exposed.

      2+
      1. Let me also state in addition to what I said NA that I understand that you are showing a different perspective to that type of relationship/ marriage other than the Narcissists. But it what you said has a tone to it that the woman, who you are speaking of, is more content.
        Which I don’t think she would be.
        I may not have communicated that effectively. 🙂

        1+
      2. Sues423
        Sorry just getting caught up and missed your comment. I was not trying to convey that these women are less unhappy but more specifically that they are not under as much control as the Narc believes them to be. She is not in complete control either and is utilizing her narcissistic traits as you point out, but this does not mean she cannot be an Empath or empathic. I believe she sees the signs (as many say they do) but chooses to ignore them and accept this silent contract with herself. She believes she can be content to accept this arrangement (if only temporarily) with the gains being to struggle less, provide for her children, (the amount of attention she receives from both the Narc and others being satisfactory at the outset) and set herself up for the future with an eye to pursuing her own (and intimate) goals with someone else if it becomes unbearable. Because I believe its always a two-way street I do not subscribe to the total domination and control of the Narc as always being the reason for these arrangements as they love to believe. She chooses and it is not always an uninformed decision.

        2+
      3. HI NA, I agree with you there is only so long that the victim can keep playing the victim unless of course they are a mid range narc lol. Once we know and choose to carry on we have to take some responsibility for this and even if we do not know we are dealing with a narcissistic person or even what narcissism is to begin with , we know what bad behaviour is , I stuck around with him , he was a terrible boyfriend. I allowed the treatment , yes I did not know what I was dealing with but I knew he was horrible and a selfish pig and that’s an insult to a pig . Empaths or whatever we are have to own some responsibility or it’s bordering on the narcissists behaviour , I never even had a golden period ha ha

        1+
      4. Lisa

        Hi Lisa. Yes I hear a lot of people say they didnt know what they were dealing with and while its true that they did not have the label or awareness that they do now, it isnt rocket science to know that it was wrong and unhealthy to be treated the way they were. Once you come to that realization I believe it is a choice to stay to try to figure it out, improve the situation, leave, etc but a choice nonetheless. People think I am trying to blame them by saying that but what I wish they would hear is that voice in their head in quiet moments is their own power and choice still speaking to them. The Narc is not powerful without you so he just makes a lot of noise and distraction so you cant hear it, but its still there. You are never powerless.

        2+
      5. NarcAngel
        You are exactly right. None of us is ever powerless. We should never stay in any situation because we feel we have no choice. We always are the one to choose. The narcs may think they are in control, and sometimes we delude ourselves into thinking that someone else is controlling us, but that is just an illusion. We make our own choices.

        0
      6. Windstorm2

        Hi Windstorm. Glad to see you have made it home for a rest and hope all your furniture is now back in place with the fridge stocked. Have some of that rum and put your feet up. Cheers!

        0
      7. NarcAngel
        Cheers right back at you! I am and I have!
        Looking forward to the eclipse Monday!! I can remember back in the 60’s when my father and I watched an almost total eclipse he told me the next total one would be in 2017. I was horrified. At 6 I was certain I’d be dead by 2017! How could anyone live that long?!? It was even in a different century! But I’ve made it! Praying for clear skies!!

        Hope you have a great weekend!

        0
      8. Yes exactly NarcAngel and this is what HG is telling us . He tells us the most awful things about this disorder , time and time again . He is telling us what they are and all of their weaknesses and empowering us to understand this , get away from it and how to try to avoid it in the future. At no time does HG ever talk about healing the narcissist or working things out with the narcissist . For the purposes of this blog and his books he is on our side . Of course in real life that would be different . The narcissist is powerless without our attention .

        2+
      9. NarcAngel-In regards to my mother, who fit this to a T, I’d say you’re correct about her-originally-deciding that the life described was the one she wanted. She never enjoyed her job, so she was all too eager to exchange it for stay-at-home motherhood and complete financial security. What’s some manipulation and bursts of anger in the face of everything she thought she wanted (or so she probably thought)? And besides, given her own childhood spent being beaten with a belt by her father and molested by her stepfather, my father probably looked good.

        I do not think her choice brought her much joy. When she thought I wasn’t eavesdropping (but I always was), I heard her crying after my father screamed at her, telling her friends how she felt like a prostitute. But by that time she hadn’t worked in over a decade and her job had become redundant anyway, so at that point she was kind of trapped.

        But yeah-situations are complicated, life is complicated, and I’d say it’s very rarely a case of the narc’s partner in this scenario being either totally controlled or there totally by choice. It’s probably most often in that murky grey area.

        1+
  7. Oh wow ! This one makes sooooo much sense. Just when I think everything has clicked into place. You of course add some new material and another piece to the jigsaw is added.

    The OS MN and the latest one both tick this box.

    1+
      1. Thank you HG
        This makes sense, could this be the “balance” we spoke of or would there be more then this?

        0
    1. For my situation, I am more of a magnet empath, which is more social than the carrier empath. This people personality trait of mine, was only valued when it suited the Narcissist. They would often try to highjack my friends and connections; but to isolate me, and compartmentalize me, they would often say I was too flirty to bring around other men, had a drinking problem, had problematic friends, etc.
      The more codependent, the more you are incapable of escaping this dynamic. I was very codependent emotionally at both times I was in these situations, financially more independent. Both times that I escaped, I didn’t tell them I was leaving, I went behind their backs, moved to a new residence, and then dealt with the aftermath.

      1+
  8. Hi HG, hope you’re well.

    When I was younger, I was made an IPSS by someone I believe was a Mid-Range Narcissist, based on what I’ve gleaned from your writings. He was very successful in his chosen field (entertainment), and had all the charm and confidence MRNs seem to have in plenty. He was married (still is, and has been for over 30 years), and it was an open secret that he was cheating on his wife with an array of women.

    The MRN has made many enemies in his line of work, and several have tried and failed to break up his marriage by outing him to his wife on his numerous infidelities. The scenario you’ve described here fits their arrangement perfectly. It never made much sense to me how she could allow herself to be debased like this, knowing full well how many dalliances he’s had and no doubt will have. Then I think of the big house they share, the status that comes with his profession, the glamour, the art shows, the schmoozing, the glossy spreads in tasteful art magazines, and it all makes perfect sense. Thank you. 🙂

    0
  9. This set off so many triggers, made me cry, and realize how much of a puppet/fool I was. Thanks HG, you hit the nail on the head- describes my mid-range N exactly. The sad thing is that I didn’t even know it was devaluation. What an education you have given me this past year or so.

    2+
  10. Beautiful! Enjoyed every minute of reading this! Madonna and whore indeed. And yes, often times the wife is cold sexually. She’s quite content with not being touched by him. And he loves that about her! She could not fulfill his depravity. He has the SSs who will do all the filthy things he truly desires. The IPPS is not the only one that he keeps… He has one dirty little secret that he holds onto for years. Until she’s had enough or until she finds a better sponsor. It is the dirty secret that truly owns him … She could ruin him with all she knows.

    3+
    1. I tend to agree with you Love. Compared to other Narc dynamics, I think this wife chooses to turn a blind eye and knows what is happening behind the scenes. Although that does cause suffering and sadness and pain is pain no matter what, she has the secure lifestyle and financial means to live comfortably off of with her own social circles as a consolation. Both parties in this relationship enjoy and reap the benefit of the facade to the public. Her life is not one coming home scared to death she may be physically beaten if she breathes the wrong way.
      The DLS or IPSS’s do get the complete canvas of the Narc’s mind and what he craves for his outlet.

      4+
      1. I’ve been on both ends of this. Being a ‘Stepford wife’ is like being half-dead already. You shut down everything you are. All your joy. The light is dimmed to almost full darkness. Being the whore was much more authentic.

        3+
      2. Love, your comment is dead on right. The way you worded the last statement cracked me up though. There’s an article for HG for sure in the “Authentic Whore”.
        I know his DLS article resonated a lot for both of us. The authenticity of their wants, desires, and commands exposed to her and away from all of their other circles is what keeps her chained to thinking one day she’ll get made the primary for being loyal.

        5+
      3. It’s no walk in the park living with and being married to a narcissist ever. Did anyone see Big Little Lies? No, in my situation no one is threatening to beat me daily but there were a few instances enough to know it’s there under the surface and the mental abuse is there, the rages, etc. The conditioning is to get us to put up with all of that, the lifestyle and children make the guilt even worse.

        To be fair, I didn’t know about the infidelities until very recently in our six year marriage and it took us to the closest we’ve gotten to divorce and the worst devaluation experience and I thought surely this is it and then the Hoover started and it was truly madly deeply can’t live without you all over again.

        And now, now it is a choice and an inner dialogue and no one ever thinks they’d end up here and certainly not stay but until you’re there, you can’t for sure say.

        The Jennifer Garner quote about Ben Affleck that he’s still the only person who really knows the truth about things. And she’s still the only person that knows some of his truths.

        That’s a narcissit’s wife speaking.

        3+
      4. No doubt, I believe you have suffered with fear and lots of self blaming and guilt. Like I said, pain is pain and it’s very real and valid what you have experienced.
        I was completely hooked on Big Little Lies.
        Yes, yes, I’ve heard Jennifer Garner’s comments about Ben Affleck. I wish I could find another one. It was something along the lines of he could fill a room like warm sunshine but if you aren’t on the receiving end, it’s a very cold place.
        Stopped me dead in the grocery line because I knew exactly like you, Holy shit balls, he’s a narc. Several HG articles swam in my head. Lol

        4+
  11. This is us. When it’s just me and the kids at home I can breathe and it’s better than good and then I feel so guilty for feeling so awful when she’s home. If only I could do more, be more, expect less, things wouldn’t be so bad…could be far worse…

    Then I want to shake myself and say no it isn’t right and nothing is worth the price of your self respect and what am I teaching them anyway in between vacations and our afternoons in the pool? That what they will eventually see is an acceptable way to treat someone you love or conversely be treated?

    My mother left many an unhappy situation but couldn’t ultimately outrun her own unhappiness with herself.

    2+
    1. Generally, the empath in this scenario could be from any of the schools, but is usually a Standard Empath or Co-Dependent Empath, often from the Carrier Cadre.

      1+
  12. I think this may be where I have fit in to the niche of my relationship and I think I have had to pay the price that I have had to, so that I understand my place…

    2+
  13. Lived through this twice. I was sucked into this, because the Narcissist puts a lot of emphasis on family values. You feel special because out of everyone in the Narcissist life, you get to be the one that they come home to. While they are out doing narcissist things, you are often caring for their children, the children you have together, or their elderly family member that they will receive a large inheritance from one day. Being healthy minded is the goal. Your figure and look should present a healthy lifestyle, your knowledge of health is a topic of discussion amongst other IPPS in your circle of narcissist couples, and the meals at home should be healthy so the Narcissist can keep up with IPSS. Financial abuse and triangulation was the abuse methods used the most in my situations. The constant humiliating situations is why I think it eventually ends.

    2+
  14. “The phase of devaluation really earns its stripes when applied to intimate partners (IPSS or DLS)”

    Why does it really earn its stripes. How?
    I thought they enjoyed extended and long gold and periods and were rarely devalued?

    Have i misunderstood ?

    1+
    1. Generally speaking, IPSSs and DLSs will enjoy elongated golden periods when the IPPS is in devaluation, but where there is a Stepford Devaluation, the dynamic shifts. The IPSS and DLS has a golden period to begin with (how else are they seduced?) but soon in the narcissist’s mind they pale compared to the Madonna he has in the gilded cage and his hatred for their base and filthy ways means they are devalued and devalued you horribly. It is the dynamic of the Stepford Devaluation that has this impact, DW, but you are right to raise the question, thank you.

      2+
      1. Thank you HG, there is such a lot to take in. I struggle with the exceptions in different circumstances.🙁

        1+
  15. All of these responses and answers are very educated, valid and a little bit intimidating that it almost makes me want to sit down and not say a word. However, I do feel the need to point out the other side to this conversation and possibly defend and give a voice to those that are like myself or who possibly feel the way that I do.
    The decision to be in this type of relationship is not always made for devious reasons or to take the “easy” way out in life. I am an educated woman who is accomplished in several areas ( I even put myself through school twice), so I am able to stand on my own 2 feet and have done so all of my life, since the age of 14.
    The only time that I have not is when a significant Narcissist has been present in my life and I have taken on the role of Mother/Wife/Significant Other. I do this willingly and very gladly because it is what makes me feel valued and whole.
    Some women find their self worth in their careers, some find it with their children, their homes,their friendships, their families etc. I just happen to find mine within a Narcissistic relationship, and I know I always will.
    I like myself and giving perfection to everything I do. I enjoy taking care of and fixing and doing things for others. I love feeling safe and secure and not having to worry about things that most people do.
    Mostly, I love my Narcissist. He is strong and sexy, charming and very outgoing. He is very successful and incredibly smart. We exist in our own world, a safe bubble, where no one else allowed. We can come and go at will and live a life that other people can only dream of. We have incredible sex and like to explore each others bodies. When we are on our game we are fluid and symbiotic. He knows that he is my protector and I know that I am to be his everything and I want everything to be perfect. That is how it works.
    Yes, it is very demanding, yes it hurts my heart knowing that he can wake up in a dark mood for no apparent reason and I jump through every hoop to try to make him feel better. Yes, I am aware of the many abuses all of varying degrees. I am in no way condoning any of these things, but I do know that what sets me apart from others is that I have a need of those abuses because I am inherently masochistic. That is part and parcel of being Co-Dependent, and one reason why the Co-Dependent/Narcissist relationship works so well.
    There was only one other person in here who knew that I am Co-Dependent. They also know how badly I’ve struggled with that knowledge because I know, as with NPD, I will not “get over” it or change. I know that I will only ever attract a Narcissist, and I’m ok with that. I feel very lucky to be going back to the Narcissist that I already know because he’s the best Narcissist I have ever had. I feel better in the knowledge of what I am and of what he is. It all makes more sense now. I will continue to take the time to read and ask questions, do consultations and remain on this blog so I know the best way to proceed during those dark times when the beast comes out to play.
    If you have not read H.G.’s book:
    Chained: The Narcissist’s Co-Dependent
    I highly recommend it. It’s very informative and explains in depth the C/N relationship.

    6+
      1. If JA is “going back to…” her best narcissist, I’m wondering if she just left another? .. Devaluation ….Golden period…Deval…Golden.
        Are some of us Emp’s addicted to that roller coaster?

        0
    1. Hi Jody Allen…..thank you for writing that post……it was very interesting to me…….and not something that I had read or maybe understood before. Thank you for sharing your story in detail…….I can’t do that……but I appreciate it when others do. Thanks again Diva

      3+
    2. Jody, your comment was beautiful. You have succeeded in maintaining a happy relationship with a narc. It is quite an accomplishment! I understand and empathize with you on many points. I too greatly strived to make a happy home for my narc. I wanted him pleased and I walked on egg shells to meet all his needs. I did it all – cooking, cleaning, laundry, and ironing his clothes – with such enthusiasm … Because I felt needed, wanted. He could afford a maid, but I felt special that he enjoyed my domestic talents. And I was the woman of the house. I accepted his behavior and turned a blind eye to the infedilities and lies, because I REALLY REALLY wanted it to work. If he asked me to jump, I would – even if it was down a volcano. To be fair, he was kind in that he bought me expensive gifts throughout our relationship. He would also occasionally do some things I wanted.. Luxury trips, etc. Little carrots here and there. He was proud to have me on his arm for special events/galas. Yet I noticed slowly, I began to disappear. My identity somehow evaporated. I became furniture. His friends and family never engaged with me. I was more a servant, a shadow. No one cared who I was, what my interests and passions were. The only compliments I would receive were on my culinary and housemaking skills. And I actually had a successful career. Despite it all, I would never have left. To this day, if I had not been discarded, I would still remain. Just a shell of a person. He had no need for a completely developed human being with a rainbow of dreams, wishes, desires in life.

      2+
      1. Love, it has taken me this long (one year and 2 months post discard) to find myself. I have been a co-dependent and shell of a person for years. It feels so good to be able to feel free. I finally went out and faced the world after a major accomplishment and life event. The men were like vultures. All I could think of was “Sitting Target”, was able to see right through them.

        I don’t know if I will ever trust anyone enough to give them a chance again, and I don’t want to give up being me-it’s always suppressed in relationships because the men I’ve dated were weaker, mid-range narc types. I dated one greater off-and-on for most of my life, but oh how he has fallen from grace.

        It is a sad reality that I will always be a magnet for these types, but I don’t want them. It’s too exhausting and draining to deal with. It’s like turning a beautiful colorful painting into a drab black-and-white one (not that all black and white is bad), or starving a plant of light, air, and water and watching it dry out. I don’t want to ever become the shriveled or droopy plant again.

        2+
      2. Narcked, thank you for sharing. My therapist says the fear of tomorrow is only an illusion. You can live the happy carefree life you want. He said my joy was always there, just burried deep within me. You’ve seen the beauty of life in all its glorious colors… So no need to worry about being a magnet or going back to your old ways. Your life is in your hands now, to do whatever you want.

        3+
    3. If youre Co-D and have been involved with multiple narcissists (this one is the best youve ever had) when is it that you were standing on your own two feet? This is certainly a different tone than when you arrived here on the blog. Read that back as if you had a daughter that wrote it. Would that still be all ok? Sounds like nothing more than a poetic out to me. Good Luck.

      1+
      1. Hi Narc Angel and thank you for your question.
        When I first arrived here post escape, I was a complete and shattered mess not understanding what was going on, what just happened to me, what was wrong with me or him, and looking for so many answers.
        The conversations and discussions on here resonated,and helped somewhat,but not enough to really hit home with me. I had wondered why I couldn’t reach the anger stage, I wondered why I couldn’t blame him even though I knew the answers they are posted in black and white.I wondered why I felt I was missing a piece of myself. I knew I was on to something but I felt that I was only barely scratching the surface of answers that I so desperately needed.
        That’s when I decided to hunker down and start reading. In the last month and a half I’ve read almost all of H.G.’s books, but the one that hit home with me was Chained. It was as though I was reading about my life, and about myself and I really began to understand myself and it just clicked into place. It upset me very much, and I didn’t want to deal with it or tell anyone, especially anyone on this blog.
        I was encouraged to, instead of fighting it, embrace it and learn to work with it and to come back here and still be part of this mish-mash family.I’m glad I have stuck around, but I haven’t said too much for fear of being judged.
        No, I would not want either of my daughters to be involved in a relationship like this.Thankfully,neither one of them are married to Narcissists they are married to two Normal men.
        My relationship is confusing and hurtful and wonderful and lovely all at the same time.
        But it is my relationship, and it is what is “normal” for me.

        3+
      2. I understand Jody. You have to do what is right for you and what makes your heart content. I connect with you on many aspects. Unfortunately or fortunately I’ve never felt that immense love for any man to ever want to go back. My therapist says its because I have never been authentic with any partner. I agree. I have never truly loved any of them – I was merely playing a role. My part in their story: be it Madonna or whore.

        3+
      3. Jody nobody on this site should be judging anyone and Im sure everyone supports you, when opinions are expressed about different people’s views and experiences, it is just that , people expressing their thoughts . Your story is important and it should be shared. Don’t feel like you should be justifying yourself to anyone on this blog . 😀

        6+
      4. Hi Jody Allen ……..this is exactly why I am wary about posting too much detail on here……..you were brave to do so……your story was unusual ……….hence my appreciation for your previous post……I personally think it is unfair to make any critical judgments about other peoples lives past and present and/or decisions on this blog……queries are fine (in my opinion) or questions to understand their logic but critical judgements are not conducive and make it less likely for some people (like me) to divulge their story……and we all have at least one. If we can’t bare our souls here and expect a smidgen of empathy and understanding on this blog…..then there is truly no hope…….from someone that understands and I am sure others do too………Diva

        1+
      5. Thank you Diva and you are right to hold on to your story. It is yours to keep or share.
        I and many others here would never judge, it is always the one that does judge that sticks out in your mind the most, though, and I understand not wanting to feel that sting especially after going through hell in the first place.
        I really am okay with someone not agreeing with me. We are all who we are, and that’s what makes us all beautiful in our own right. ♡

        2+
      6. I read somewhere…..and I can’t recall where……that people with good judgement are usually not judgemental……saying that……I am my own worst critic!!!!!!

        1+
      7. Have we not all changed since we arrived on this blog????? I know I have…..and I have not been on it for very long…….if I stay on it much longer I am not going to recognise myself!!!!!

        4+
      8. Yes, the hope is for change but there doesnt seem to be a lot of it. To arrive “a shattered mess”, go no contact for a few days, then all of the sudden realize this is the way its always been and its been satisfying seems a bit of a stretch. Jodys story is not the only one however. After youve been here awhile you see that almost everyone is a Super Empath and every other person has had a Greater despite the fact that HG says theyre both rare. Or theyre Co-D and thats just the way it is. Stories are told yes, but people dont seem to move on-they just want to keep reliving how great it was (or bad) with their Narc but making no changes themselves. They arrive all destroyed and the troups gather round to lend support and the next thing-their wondering when he will hoover or start forgetting the abuse and focusing on what they liked about him (usually sex). HG tells us brutally everyday in articles how it is and people still doubt and hold out hope that their situation is the exception. So should we just keep enabling each other or should we open our eyes to the possibility that we can fool ourselves sometimes better than the Narc? I keep saying I dont think its a fact that theyre so great at the game or have all of the power-that we just give it to them. Youd think we would want to take that power back, but no, we just want to keep finding a reason that its not our fault and that we just cant change. If any one of you had a child (no matter the age) being abused youd claim to find the strength to deal with it. But somehow for yourself its not possible. If youve accepted that this is the way you are and hes so wonderful, dont come crying that youve been destroyed and garner a lot of attention then give a sermon on how satisfying and fulfilling it is (and has been) living with your abuser in a bubble. Some of us actually thought you wanted support.

        Dont be reluctant to tell your story. Say what you want to say. Its me that has it all wrong. My change since being here is to realize that a lot of people dont want support and education to escape what theyve experienced-theyd rather just enjoy the attention of others, talk about it like theyre in a book club, and look for excuses.

        I wont bother you with my observations any more.

        5+
      9. Hi NarcAngel …. On the issue of Greaters…..sure HG wants us to believe that they are rare….they couldn’t possibly be common if he is one!!!!! Also if we all stopped commenting or making observations because someone didn’t or might not agree with us, then this blog would cease to exist. I value all of the comments and observations…..I like reading the comments just as much as the articles, regardless of whether or not I agree with them. Diva

        1+
      10. I am relying on that simple fact being true as this means I am safe enough. I believe that I can now recognise lesser and most mid range types (not 100% certain on UMR though) and I have no problems dispatching them as they do not interest me for long, if at all. I guess only time will tell. Just met a lesser at the gym….he goes there everyday without fail, for hours. Good looking, good body…..seems far more confident texting than speaking…..extremely quick at trying to move things along…….but it’s to no avail……I did a few background checks (something I never would have considered before as I used to take everyone at face value) – found out that he has been in prison for GBH. Why can’t I get the chorus of that song out of my head……ALARM by Ann Marie…..

        0
      11. Hope I’m able to share from a newbie(ish) point of view. I’m still trying to make sense of the whole situation. I’m probably still getting it all wrong so sometimes tough words might not be acknowledged immediately whilst they are sinking in. That’s the case for me anyway. I’m definitely not super empath nor am I co-dependent (and hopefully not a narc!) but maybe a lot of people here just are.

        I agree with Diva on changing, I am changing too, albeit a slow painful process. Nothing is making sense to me at the moment and my brain is not working – focused on healing the injury caused by narcs.

        Agree on subject of greater too. Either they aren’t that rare, or that they are so good at ensuring and devastating – so hundreds of victims per Greater. Having experienced one, perhaps not quite as refined as HG, he’s told me that he has been diagnosed and is well aware of what he is and from what he has allowed me to know and witness, he’s extremely efficient at gaining fuel. Although from a disadvantaged background, he is already so successful at such a young age. I dread to think how many more lives he will ruin (on all levels – primary, secondary and tertiary) and the trail of destruction he will leave behind wherever he sets foot on in the next 50 years. So hundreds more will be affected just by him alone. So yes, there probably are that many who have encountered a greater, we might all be talking about the same one (or two)!

        1+
      12. Wow Bliss, your words impacted me. A young Greater starting out in his battle for supremacy – oh the carnage he will leave behind in his lifetime. You’re absolutely right, it only takes 1 or 2.

        1+
      13. Oh, I also find that I understand better when reading HG’s blog as well as all the comments. It’s the combination of hearing it from a narc’s perspective then from empaths’ perspective (especially as everyone are in different stages) that I find most helpful. 🙂

        2+
    4. JA do you ever fear he will eventually discard you for another? It is your life and it works for you than by all means live it but you know you can not ever trust him.
      One day he will wake up and it will be over as you know it.

      3+
      1. AH OH
        Yes, I worry about that and I have no doubt that he’s played while I’ve been away even though I do not ask and I do not wish to know.
        I didn’t have infidelity rubbed in my face during our years together. I’m not denying it didn’t happen because anyone will find a way if that’s what they are going to do. But if it did he would have had to be pretty quick about it since we were together nearly every day. Would that break my heart. Yes it would.
        I’m not going back without a plan or a plan B in place. I will not allow myself to be devestated the way I was 3 months ago. I have good and positive things set in place so that if and when that time ever arrives it will be a clean break with not one reason to contact him or beg. I have armed myself with knowledge and I have an awesome support system.
        We will see if I can hold up my own boundaries and not let him blow through them.
        It may be the dumbest thing I’ll ever do, but I just have to know…

        2+
      2. Only you know what is best for yourself in the long run. I understand the “have to know”. I think at times we already do know but we are in such disbelief that we have to do it again to see if it was really as bad as we thought. It usually is. Most times going back is only a temporary move. We do not change for the most part. We are who we are. We do not change our spots, we just color them in sometimes but the paint always wears off. Boom………..guess who!

        My GF’s have told me time and time again to be the damsel in distress or do not intimidate the guys. I say, “What! pretend to be someone I am not? And then one day let Me out and scare the hell out of them?”
        No, if they cannot handle who I am NOW, they sure as hell can’t handle who I am tomorrow. It really takes a very strong man to calm the savage beast I am.

        I hope you fair well and your Narc gives what you seek.

        0
      3. Jody, I have exposed myself raw on this blog. I have admitted, acquitted and spitted some of the darkest experiences of my life on here in this open forum. I have shared, in private consults with HG, which I highly recommend, more than I shared with my therapist. Why? Because he approaches it without a once of emotion. He is to the point, matter of fact. He lays it out and leaves it up to me to pick it up.

        I know I can tell him where the bodies are and he will make sure I buried them correctly. Umm to much? Too dark.

        Man, I just got the desire to fly to Maui. I think I will book a trip for September. Sorry, totally sidetracked for a moment. It is my ADD.

        I hope Diva knows she is safe here and I promise there are enough empaths on here to protect her. I can be a bit mean and judgmental. But I try not to attack unless I am provoked. I do not soft shoe around, I get right to the point and at times it seems like it is harsh but I am a realist.

        Again, I recommend you enlist, if you have not yet, HG for guidance.

        2+
      4. AH OH
        I appreciate your kind words and your advice. Remember when I said I had a good support system and a plan?
        You nailed it. I have only had one consult, so far, with H.G., who was also the person that I went to after I read his book Chained. He has been very patient with me so far and I know he will be a great source of solid and sound advice. I have mad respect for him for sure.
        I know what you are saying about going back and I also know what I am setting myself up for, but this time it has to be done the right way. For all intents and purposes I love this person tremendously and if I leave it will be, like I said, without anything of mine to hold hostage, my own finances and no reason to contact him. I will try with everything I have to maintain my boundaries and follow the advice given to see where this will go. It is all I can do. The one good thing about me is when it is over for me, it is over for me and I do not go back.
        I do not mind anyone’s opinion or advice however it is given, as I mentioned in my other posts, and assured NA. It has to be very difficult as a long timer to watch the revolving door and everyone in the same state of shock and disbelief just to see them go back to their abuser. I know most everyone in here comes from a place of caring and well meaning. We all need that.

        2+
      5. Hi AH OH your responses make me smile…..I sense a dark humour and I have that too……not every one gets it but it is what keeps me afloat in many ways. I am just not at the stage of “exposing” myself on here!!!!!!!…….even the words you use raise a smile……I know that there are many non judgemental, decent people on this site that want to help themselves and others too, however, it may take a while before my guard comes down……Diva

        0
      6. Well good luck, Jody Allen.

        NarcAngel:
        some people need to make their own experiences. It is pointless to get frustrated over that. I agree that it seems pointless to talk endlessly about it and get others involved (their time), and then repeat. But we all know that we cannot help anyone in an abusive relationship who doesn’t fully want to make that step themselves.

        0
    5. Hi Jody. Thanks for sharing that. I hope it does work out. Granted it is a very different situation and type of relationship, but I’m trying to make things work with my father and brother despite everything. So obviously ME judging would be the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. 😀

      I don’t feel any real anger and my father and brother either. A bit of resentment I guess, but not the kind of boiling anger that I see displayed by many commenters toward the narcs in their lives. (Actually, the closest I come to getting angry is thinking of some overly self-righteous asshole trying to do to my father and brother what some people here wish they could do to all narcs.) And perhaps bizarrely, knowledge about why they do what they do is slowly helping to dissipate some of that resentment rather than strengthen it.

      There’s no single “right” way to feel or to live your life. It’s yours, not anybody else’s. The people who will criticize your life decisions will never have to live with them.

      So…good luck, and I hope you made the right decision for you. 🙂

      1+
      1. Hi June
        I think you said something very important in your comment:

        ” And perhaps bizarrely, knowledge about why they do what they do is slowly helping to dissipate some of that resentment rather than strengthen it.”

        I find a lot of truth in that paragraph. Perhaps that is why I have been unable to feel angry. In trying to educate myself and understand all of his complexities it has only made me feel sad for him.

        I find it very admirable that you have so much forgiveness and love for your father and brother to not completely kick them out of your life. Everyone deserves a chance.
        We both sound like we want to give another chance, despite everything ;).
        I wish you love, joy and luck ♡

        1+
      2. Jody-

        Aww, thank you. <3 (Please accept this utter failure to create the perfect heart you somehow did.)

        Absolutely. It's hard to keep any kind of anger going when you read HG describe what motivates their behavior. Especially when he posts one of those inner monologues from his POV.

        Though I'm feeling a little bit of anxiety right now that the person I've so far been able to relate to the best on this site is a self-confessed Co-Dependent. 🙂 I guess one of these days I should really read Chained, just to see if it resonates with me or not.

        1+
      3. LOL June!

        I don’t think Co-Dependency is “catchy”. If is, I promise to wear my PPE’s at all times.

        PS: The heart was from my phone 🙂

        0
  16. For those of you Stepford Wives of the Narcs that still haven’t escaped, and are still idolizing a future with the narc, you will more than likely have to escape or be discarded at some point. If you are codependent, and have children with the Narcissist, there is a high chance, that the Narcissist will alienate you from your children one day. All of the good things that you have done for the narc and your children, will be erased from history. The Narcissist can and will create his own version of smearing you to your children and authorities. Start working on an escape, and work on your codependent issues, not only for your sake, but for the kids.

    2+
  17. I guess Im getting mixed messages.

    You take on the role of wife/mother/significant other willing and gladly because you feel valued and whole.

    You find your self worth within Narcissistic relationships and always will.
    You love feeling safe and secure and not having to worry about things that most people do. (That doesnt sound to me like standing on your own two feet).

    You love your Narc, cite all of the great things about him and state that “this is how it works”.

    So whats the problem then?

    Despite him not being your first Narc and all of the wonderful things about this one that you are ‘very lucky to be able to go back”to, you “escaped” him and came to this blog a “complete and shattered mess” and didnt understand what was wrong with him or you and looking for answers. You felt you were missing a piece of yourself.

    Things resonated with you here but “not enough to hit home”. Sounds like you just read until you could find a reason that its not your fault, there are others like you, be okay with being abused, and go back. Chained.

    Thats how it reads to me.

    Like you said though-your relationship. Its probably going to get fun now that he knows you have no feet. Buckle up.

    2+
    1. NA,
      I do not pretend to know all the answers and I certainly wouldn’t deem myself expert enough to pick someone else apart because I disagreed with their opinion or view. My road has been very long and difficult, like everyone else in here, and my intention is to never make someone feel as though they cannot speak or express their opinion because they may feel differently than some of the other stronger personalities on here.
      While I respect your passion, intelligence and your clear set of analytical skills you border on sounding confrontational. Perhaps that is because you do not have respect for women like me and think of me as weak. Or because you are so passionate about your own recovery and don’t wish to see others make ,what you would view, as terrible mistakes.
      Whichever it is, I am okay and I respect your input, I have since day 1.
      As for looking for a reason to “not make it my fault” I’ve never sought to blame anyone only to seek understanding about myself and my situation. Besides, I always love to take the blame.

      2+
      1. i only know what I read and its the same story over and over: Hes a monster and almost destroyed me. I love him. Im going back. They get to unload the story. Others invest in their journey and support them, hope for them. Then they go back to him while the others hold that story and feel the sense of loss of another they invested in and had hope for back to the abuse. Its like watching abuse helpless. My own fault for giving a shit. Nobody asked me. I get it.

        5+
      2. What I’m doing too! Seeking to understand myself. I don’t have a fucking clue.

        I don’t want attention or an outpouring of empathy here. I like to read and share. I like to “hear” HG’s input and narc-y comments.

        But mainly just trying to find my “self”!

        0
    2. Narc Angel, I love you. I truly do. And I wish I could hug you right now. My eyes actually filled with tears because you as a child were the one and only innocent victim in the narc/co-dep relationship. You see it from a very different perspective. The logical side. The ‘I never chose to be raised in this BS’ part of the story.
      What we do as adults is on us – the abuse, tolerance, love, pain, etc. We adults can be as selfish and destructive as we want. Yet when children are involved, then the battle becomes much more important.
      I admit that I’ve lived a very selfish destructive life. I may even bring on more pain onto myself in the future. However, it would be different if I had children.
      Jody, I’m very happy to know your kids are grown and in healthy relationships. You are blessed. So what you do from this point forward, is solely up to you.

      2+
      1. I haven’t been here long enough to have everyone’s story memorized, so I didn’t know that about NarcAngel and her childhood.

        NarcAngel, I guess that explains why you sound bizarrely like the friend who I originally talked to about this stuff; the same strange combination of genuine concern with the feeling wanting to throttle an idiot.

        …and I guess what Love and Tiny Dancer describe is why my friend said I could end up hurting my (possible future) children if I don’t get help. Mmm…

        (slinks off to deal with oncoming dark brooding mood)

        3+
      2. I have misunderstood the purpose of the blog from the get go (totally on me) and it has been made crystal clear to me now.

        Whenever I left a post about my childhood it appeared to make others uncomfortable and that was not the intention. It was to show how adults free to live their lives as they please have effect on others around them. Children are your children no matter the age. It is not less painful to watch, or make you care any less as an adult to watch as your family member is degraded and destroyed because its their life and their choice. Those friends and family members that say insensitive things or nothing at all and that the victim is now angry with? Its because theyre tired of watching you abused even though its your “right” to do so. Not because theyre indifferent.

        Trying to talk to someone in the grip of addiction is like that old adage of the definition of insanity: doing things over and over and expecting different results. So you just dont. I had to learn the hard way as my sickness does not allow me to stand by and watch.

        I have also learned a great deal here and healed in some ways. I have had hoovers, and there are the ongoing problems with my family. My empath sister has moved in with what appears to be a mid-range who will surely milk her inheritance but that is not my concern until she comes crying for help (again). My Narc brother keeps losing his jobs due to anger issues and of course expects family to help out. Then theres my Mother who doesnt understand why we cant all get along and spend more time together. When I tell her it was her choice to remain with the Monster that caused all of this I am torn to shreds. You don’t speak ill of the dead after all. (A man who got her to sign over the house to him and just remain a tenant and made sure she was left nothing in the will). We went to a lawyer who advised that she signed away her rights and there was nothing she could do, so we gave her money left to us so she could live. A woman who said all of the things I read here about wanting change but remained controlled by him (although living apart) until the day he died. But people dont want to hear those things. They want to focus more on the great sex theyre missing that makes it all bearable.

        Anyway, none of this matters-its just a cautionary tale and Im sure wont happen to anyone else. Its your life and your right to do with it as you please as has been pointed out to me. I was blinded by the fact that not everyone wants out. It never occurred to me that some would just want to share their nightmare and yet stay in abuse as I did not know all of the labels and behaviours. I just thought we were all fucked up and wanted out.

        Please continue to read, tell your stories, and participate. I will not be here to interfere. Also the consultations are invaluable and I encourage them. Oops, there I go again telling people what to do.

        HG
        I went to the Bank of Fucks today to find not only is my balance Zero, but that I am overdrawn. Cant even mortgage any because apparently I have no credit. I apologize for interferring with your guests-it was never my intent to dishonor your blog. You have been helpful in so many ways by delivering the brutal truth and I thank you for it. I will continue to honor that by reading your books and watch for your further explosion onto the world stage for being recognized as the one true source of information on Narcissicism. Thanks to all of the regular readers who tolerated me this long and for the many laughs.

        NarcAngel

        3+
      3. NarcAngel,

        I feel somewhat a catalyst for this decision so, I wish to address your comment and ask that you at least hear me out before you completely decide to leave this blog space.
        I am pretty new here, only 3 months, (1 one of which was spent in almost complete solitude) so I apologize if I haven’t seen any of your posts referring to your childhood. If I had, they would not have made me feel uncomfortable, since I think all of us in here have that one thing in common (and why we are all either a little or a lot fucked up), and I am never without wanting to soothe or mend or discuss, especially if I had any hand in causing it.
        I am very sorry about the pain and abuse caused to you in your own childhood. I am sorry about the impact it has had on your life and the burdens you carry around with you, and I am most sorry how we as people, parents continue a cycle that we are only made aware of until we look back in retrospect.
        I was raised in a very abusive home with a mother who has only recently been diagnosed with BPD. My father was in the military and a chronic cheater (as would be revealed later in his life when detectives started showing up to my parents door seeking child support for the several children that he spawned and then much later on in life when it was discovered that he had another wife and family even though my parents had been married for nearly 40 years) He was rarely, if ever around.
        I am the youngest child and received the brunt of my mothers bizarre abuses. I have serious abandonment issues, as I was left with anyone my mother could find to take me in while she took my other siblings across the country to live in other states. Somehow, I always managed to turn up in her life like a bad penny. As I got older I began to run away as a form of escape, it only made the abuse worse until I was 14 and ran away for the last and final time. I did not return until well after my 20’s.
        I feel very fortunate that at 14 I did not turn to drugs, or prostitution or a teen pregnancy statistic. I would have been very easy pickings for anyone, because literally the streets were my home. I feel very fortunate that I had met very decent people who took me in, made sure I went to school, get a little after school job, they even began the process of trying to adopt me..but my mother was having none of it. She made me a ward of the State of California where I was then tossed around the system until I aged out with very little to no tools on how to survive.
        While it is very painful for me scratch the surface of the many things I endured and to return to that time in my life and have to remember abuses that I struggle so hard to forget, I tell you these things because I think you may understand a bit why I am the way I am.
        I’m not making excuses, I’m not looking for sympathy (I think everyone is well aware of the way I feel about the word “victim”) I am a product of fucked up shit and feel pretty damn good that I turned out to be a good human being who did not abuse my own children.
        There was no greater time in my life than raising my children. Did I have to make trade offs so I could do that? Yes. And I will not apologize for it. A mother will walk through the fiery pits of hell for her children and I would do so again a thousand times over. I did the very best I could with what I had to work with in my situation. Are my kids fucked up too?
        Yes. My daughters are overly aggressive, and won’t take shit off of anyone, especially their husbands (anger issues) My son has disowned all of us with very little to no contact, which breaks my heart, but he is in therapy so I can make that trade off.
        I agree that our children are our children no matter at what age, and I agree that the words we so flippantly throw out there: “It’s my life and I can live it the way I choose” is the biggest wall a person can use to shut others down or out…but, bluntly put, its the truth.
        I’m not trying to hurt my children or anyone by my choices in life. I cannot help that my heart lies with someone who I know is unable to love or fully grasp and understand what that means. But,I feel deeply that if I have the tools to help me through, and help me understand and coddle or run away from the beast when it emerges that I will be able to at least try to help us through this. Because for the most part he makes me happy. I am nearly 50, he is 4 years my senior we are not getting any younger and my hope is that he will begin to run out of steam. I’m not giving up on life or myself, my children, but I simply will not give up on him either. I have to exhaust all my avenues before I can give up in failure, it is my nature. Tenacious.
        I am sorry if I disappoint you with that decision.
        You are an invaluable asset to this site. You are extremely intelligent and offer great insight and advice. You are sassy and bossy and a force to be reckoned with. You are a part of this whole process, but, please do not become cynical or jaded. We all have to make mistakes, we all have to try for what we think is the right thing for us, even if that means failure.
        I call bullshit on your “Give-A-Fucks” being exhausted. If they were, you would have slunk away into the shadows never to be heard from again. Your “Give-A-Fucks” are loud and clear right now, like a beacon.
        Stay. You are wanted and needed.
        H.G., Everyone, I am sorry about the length of this, but this really needs to be addressed. Thank You

        2+
      4. WTF?!?!
        Narc Angel!! Don’t you dare go!!!!
        Your words are invaluable! Your presence is needed!
        You are the Windex for our love goggles smeared with hearts and arrows.
        We may not all think alike or have the same goals, but that is what makes this place sweet.
        We need your sobering words… And yes, we may do nothing with them, and make 0 changes in our lives, but you still resonate with us. Of the 1000s of people who read your comments, there may be that 1 who is moved to change. All in all, you’ve made a difference.

        8+
      5. WHAT? You’re giving up? The exact thing you encourage people not to do? ( in your own way of course ). Based on a couple people’s comments ? Seriously? I though you were tougher than that.
        I for one appreciate your honesty and your boldness . I think too many people have their heads in the sand and in the clouds and it’s refreshing to listen to people who are intelligent and can convey information in a genuine way . And that person is you! You also have one of the best senses of humor on here! You can be a little rough at times but who cares everybody here has problems , and being nice and sweet and kind and not saying what you really mean isn’t any better than someone who puts it out there .
        But the content of your messages are excellent! you’re very smart and very insightful .
        So cut the crap and stop feeling sorry for yourself and move on . You’ve come a long way in your life, just dust yourself off and pick yourself up again and don’t let people steal your joy.
        I definitely appreciate you !
        I’ll gladly put some of my money on your bank if that will help you! 😘🙃

        6+
      6. My sentiments too with Sue423. C’mon NA, we’ve come along way. You have a very valuable presence. Both for your insight and the levity you add with your sense of humor.
        Take a break, and come back.

        6+
      7. NarcAngel

        If you feel you must go, go knowing your words did have a positive effect on someone.

        I do hope you reconsider and stay. The choices many of us make must be that which either grows us or keeps us confined.

        I have enjoyed your company here, even lost a few keyboards, yet this was a small price to pay for the laughter that brought their demise.

        Twilight

        7+
      8. Hi narc angel.. i really hope you dont leave i enjoy your humor and your candid advice most of which i agree with. I also like how genuine you are and you care deeply i can see that.
        I think this blog is geared towards many situations out there and not just those that want to leave or have left. Theres many situations in between that are evolving. Its a process and everyones process is different and can take longer to go thru. You may not like everyone on here but youve respected everyone and that says a lot about your character.
        I do hope you stay bc you add so much to this blog and i for one would miss that! ❤

        6+
    3. NarcAngel,

      Jody Allen could be my mother. The men change, she stays the same, ever hopeful, slightly bewildered, hurting also, but if you catch her on the right day it’ll more than likely all be okay. I lived her roller coaster growing up. She probably thinks I married a normal, too.

      My own journey I share with very few people in real life and none as fully as I’ve opened up here. It is a confessional of sorts, a place to dump it all out but I certainly wouldn’t want anyone thinking they should pick it up.

      4+
  18. The only one who can tell you with brutal honesty what they see and not raise the ire of the Empath is a Narcissist. Ironic.

    12+
    1. Hi NarcAngel I thought that was a brilliant point that you made regarding HG and the Empath. It is indeed ironic and it definitely made me think, although I had to read it a couple of times before I understood it……Personally, even if he does rile me I am not likely to say too much. It would be akin to insulting the chef before he cooked your meal……you may regret that one too. Also I would be happier if he was based in Australia or New Zealand, I live in the UK, he is a bit too close for comfort for my liking. To be fair though……he is brutally honest about himself as well as our kind…….however I for one will not be annoying him any time soon………I hope those are not my famous last words!!!!!!

      4+
    2. NarcAngel
      Whoa!!! I just happened to read this thread. Hadn’t appealed to me before. Don’t give up on us! What makes this blog so helpful (in addition to HG’s great articles, of course) is our diversity. Please don’t give up on posting comments! Stay here and keep giving your insight! What others appear to do or don’t do with it is irrelevant. We never know when something we say will touch someone.

      Your comments are of great value to me. God knows I’m out there doing what seems best to me, regardless of anyone else’s opinion. We all just have to accept our differences, but that doesn’t keep us from being of value to one another. Hopefully by the time I get to the end of this thread, this will be a nonissue.

      I just read the article about savior empaths and thought of you – super savior empath, ever vigilant, standing guard to protect the innocent from narc abuse. Being a vigilante is a hard role. But you are tough. Doing right is right for its own sake. It doesn’t need confirmation. Don’t give up. We need you.

      2+
  19. NarcAngel, I don’t want my ex back. Before finding this site I had offers to take his life, didn’t want it at the time because I couldn’t believe what happened, still blind, still in love. One of my first posts to this site was about wanting him in a coffin – but I didn’t really mean it then.

    The hard thing now that I know what he was and have been educated, supported, healed a bit, I now feel like I want revenge, wish I could rewind and say yes kill his ass, but then I feel like what would that do? Will revenge make me feel any better? No, karma though – better than anything I could ever imagine. He is dead here – small town – my popularity and honesty – he played himself – comes through and hides and runs. Coward. Pussy. Ugly and broke. Con Artist. Liar and Fraud. What’s there to want back? I want to beat his ass within inches of his life – but again what will that accomplish?

    I just want to move completely the fuck on, and that shit is hard. I try to come here for help during weak moments, but it sets off triggers – and then there are the memories of the fake golden period, or shameful feelings that I let his ass play me. So tell me how long before you stop juggling the heartbreak/loneliness/rage and just say, “Fuck it, he got me, take the loss and move on?” Do you think I want him in my thoughts, no, but he was my last relationship and when I get lonely who pops up? that motherfucker! I am so angry and embarrassed more than anything because my peers are like, “We knew you were broken, you chose him for three years. The old you wouldn’t even have let him breathe on you.”

    There is discovery and awakening for some of us here. Enough to aid in healing or surviving our situations. I have been blessed that he left the area. I am not healed enough that I wouldn’t let someone kick his ass- and I don’t want to risk losing all that I’ve worked so hard to achieve in my life.

    So here – this blog – is my safe haven. Can’t speak for anyone else about their situation, but I am not trying to justify my ex in any way, paint our situation as good, or want him back. I come here for sanity, venting, release of tension and anger – so many things – but not an “It’s okay, he will hoover, and when he does it’s okay – take him back”. That is not what I want or need to hear. If anything I have to respect the cold hard truth that smacks me in my face every time HG writes an article or responds to a comment or question posted because it is what I need and I’m sure others feel that way too.

    4+
      1. I’m finding when you say:

        “Thank you for sharing your experience and observations”

        A small storm erupts…but that could just be my own observation.

        0
  20. Lets clear a few things up.

    Before I start: you or your is no one specific. If the shoe fits wear it. Or not. Totally up to you as always.

    My decision was not based on the comments of a few and was not directly to do with my exchanges with Jody. It was a culmination and mounting for some time. You think I dont read a lot of shit that pisses me off? Am I not to express myself also unless it involves shitting unicorns and pissing rainbows? Yes there are strong personalities here (did you think there was only HG and a bunch of puddles that have just arrived?). They want you to recognize you are one of them. They encourage you to engage, stand your ground, and contribute. They respect you for doing so and do not expect you to bow to their opinion-unlike the person who caused you to be here and who you did so gladly for.

    I do not border on confrontation. I AM confrontational. I dish it out and yes, I expect it to be returned. I do not think youre weak-you prove that when you rise up to challenge me. I just wish youd use that strength to escape your abuser. Practice away and sharpen your claws on me-I dont mind and youre going to need it.

    When I ask a question I do not expect you to justify yourself to me. I want you to ask those tough and unwanted questions of yourselves when you are alone in the same room you are forming arguments with yourself to stay with, or return to, Narcky McFuckerson.

    Fyi: labelling someones observations as critical judgements because you do not agree with them is a critical judgement in itself.

    No, I will not be the one to give you a ‘go girl’ and watch you march into battle with a Narc holding a feather duster. You can count on that.

    I have given more than a smidgen of empathy. Read all of the posts and dont be conveniently selective when it suits you.

    I am far from feeling sorry for myself and do not need to pick myself up, but the shameless and blatant attempt to guilt me did make me laugh and I very much appreciated the spirit in which it was intended.

    No one takes anything from me since StepNarc. I decide, and heres what Ive learned and decided:

    I know that no one needs my words or presence (but thank you for that Love), but I like to be present, so I will attempt to utilize the Zero Fucks I have left at my disposal to turning away and closing my eyes when yet another Dove has decided to be released into a ceiling fan and hope for the best. I will also attempt to address only HG and those I regularly speak with unless someone speaks to me directly and otherwise keep my opinions to myself. I know- I dont hold out much hope either.

    Besides, that guy at Best Buy is counting on the commision on Twilights next keyboard purchase.

    6+
    1. Yay!!!! I’m glad you’re staying Narc Angel! I wuv you and want to see you shit unicorns and piss rainbows !!! 😂❤💚💜💙💛
      Ahhhh I’m dying!!! 😂😂😂

      2+
      1. LOVE! NA! Right! But she needs the foot stool to prop up her feet in the correct position so there id no in interference of the flow.

        1+
    2. Hi narc angel…im so glad youre staying. I get completely what youre saying in your post and where youre coming from.
      There are things ive read or seen that i may not like or agree with. Situations where i feel like shaking that person and saying wake up… myself included, but i remind myself its for them to find out and go thru. Were all from different stages in abuse. Some have escaped or been discarded and see the light and are completely free and healing while some are still very much in the abuse and may take many cycles of it to walk away. Are they dumb for doing so? … no they are struggling. This blog arms us with so much knowledge but until youre ready to take that knowledge and use it to escape abuse you wont.It takes many tries for some to fully detach.
      The experiences even the sexual ones are important to discuss bc its part of the healing and evolving process. When i look back at when i started here which hasnt quite been a yr my posts are very different from what they are now. Im still in my narc relationship but sharing and reading has slowly changed me. I dont see things the same way as i did before. Im evolving. Its not always easy to see that bc we dont live with people on here 24/7 or are in their heads to see how theyre changing. What may sound like a broken record isnt the case at all.
      Its been refreshing being able to share on here and be myself which hasnt been easy elsewhere. I value peoples input and questions as long as theyre done respectfully.
      I find your posts humorous and very thought provoking! The blog is a mixture of personalities and thats what makes it what it is 🙂

      3+
    3. Damn straight Narc Angel, we can not let him down now can we!

      I do adore your feisty spirit!

      Besides it would get very boring around here with out your unique insights, between HG and you God I may just step out of the shadows and into the light….Nope I like it here wrapped with in the arms of My Darkness

      0
      1. Twilight
        You stepped into the light for a moment and it looked good on you. I hear you though-baby steps.

        0
  21. Narc Angel! Narc Angel!!

    You do not need to explain anything to anyone of us. You are here for your needs and you will find support. We do sit in Judgement at times with each other ( I am always doing this and I can’t help it) and who cares in the end. No one else walks your shoes nor do you walk theirs. Some stay connected to a narc/narcs as they are family members. Some stay in relationships/marriages as they do not see anyway out. It is their journey and only theirs. Just as your journey is your own. I do not get sad and I do not give too much care for most on here and the ones who are super empaths, well just say I have to have therapy because of it. But you are who I look for. You are sensible, you are witty, you are strong and you should only go if you want to go. Do not go because of anyone else on here. Who cares if they are addicted to the sex and they want to talk about it. You should be getting your eye exercises with eye rolls reading half the crap on here. Look at it this way, good for your eye muscles. Yes I know it does seem you can get dumbed down at times, but this too shall pass.

    I want you to stay…………Please.

    4+
  22. NarcAngel, I really hope you don’t leave. We need a person like you here. You are blunt, to the point, hilarious and on point with pretty much everything. Your insight and obvious strength has been so incredibly valuable. I admire the way you are so fearless in how you express yourself:)

    4+
  23. In
    Two years. That’s how long it took me to come to terms with being played and taken advantage of. Then I could begin to turn things around and move on without feeling shame. Maybe it won’t take so long with you. But at least know that the time will come when the shame of being duped will fade and you can take back over your life and move on.

    3+
    1. Hi Jodie , I’m not here to judge either after my mistakes in life I’m in no position. I was with my ex narcissist husband for 23 years and felt like you …. if you are truly with a narcissist the outcome will always be the same you will be left at some point in time heartbroken and he’ll move on . May be decades but will happen . I like you am co dependant I spent from a very early age catering to my ex husbands needs , excepting he’s moods bending over backwards making excuses to others for he’s behaviour. One day I was thrown away like rubbish , I was than asked to be friends with him , whilst he moved onto other relationships. I no longer speak to him but fell almost straight way into another narcissists arms , another 3 years taken from my life . I to feel like I only attract narcissists , but I’m working very very hard on myself . I have never known a normal relationship. I struggle many days wanting to run back to the person that abused me and other days growing stronger . There is no happy ever after with a narcissist Jodie there is only more pain , more confusion and much more soul destroying. Sometimes I feel it doesn’t matter to me either I just want to be back to what I know and no one I know understands this . I’m use to abuse , lying and cheating ….. but I’m never going back because I no one day the pain will end and I’ll be whole again ( whatever that means I’m not sure as I’ve never been ) . I’m working hard not to be drawn to these people nor them to me . Just no Jodie the pain you felt last time will be nothing compared to what will eventually come . I wish you nothing but happiness .

      1+
      1. Hi Bel,

        Thank you for your words of wisdom and for sharing your painful past experience. I appreciate what it took for you to write your story, and I sympathize with what you’ve endured in the last 20+ years. We have much in common, you and I.
        I’m in a very confusing and high anxiety time in my life right now especially as the days tick off the calendar, and the day comes closer. Which is part of the reason why I have not been posting on here. I’ve been trying to figure this out on my own without influence in any way, shape or form. Not even from him.
        He bought the ticket, he sent money and laid the groundwork. The only fatal flaw to the plan is that he left for vacation and has not been in contact with me… and the only thing I am doing right at this time is not contacting him either (wish I had done that very early on post escape).. Its not so much that I am stressing about him not being in contact with me, but because he has broken the chain of contact his shiny influence over me dims and more doubt creeps into my brain.
        I am supposed to fly in 2 days after his return,so, I have 7 days to get this completely figured out, and get right in my head- whatever I ultimately decide.
        I didn’t think I would ever be in this place in my head when I have done nothing for the last three months but beg to go back. Perhaps I have learned a few things?
        I wish you the very best in your recovery and thank you again for your kind words. You are much stronger than you give yourself credit for, keep that in mind when you are feeling low.

        0
  24. Hey, Narc Angel. Looks like you’re in need of lots of attention that you’re not providing yourself. Stop bleeding us now. Move on. Or not. We’ve been sucked dry enough already. Consult with your therapist now, educate yourself and heal.
    In light and love dear one.
    Peaceful.

    0
  25. Peaceful

    Haha who knew I had a twin in you! Always nice to get genuine concern from an ardent fan so thank you. Clearly your therapist has worked wonders. Congrats.

    4+

Leave a Reply