The Support Forum Fraud


There are many online support forums that exist with regard to the issue of narcissism and narcissistic abuse.

I have previously moved amongst the shadows of these blogs, Facebook sites, Twitter pages and so forth, observing and absorbing the behaviours that I have witnessed. There are those which provide information. Others are the cathartic disclosures of victims who are seeking to warn as well as recount their own horrors alongside their journey or recovery. There are others which are there to assist people in healing from the trauma they have suffered. The quality and reliability of them varies. Amidst the proliferation of support forums lurk our kind.

There is no doubt that our kind inhabit these places. Indeed, from time to time Lesser and Mid-Range Narcissists have appeared and frequented my blog. Easy for me to spot, but less so for others. Naturally, narcissists appear at other sites and forums, commenting and interacting. Those narcissists will gain some fuel from the interaction with the people on that forum, but more specifically they will look to befriend a fellow commenter or two and take their interaction off blog and onto private messaging, the telephone, Skype and ultimately meeting in person. The Tertiary Source becomes a secondary source and the provision of fuel increases in potency, quantity and frequency. A separate article will cover that type of interaction.

The narcissist also operates on these support forums in a different capacity ; that of moderator, administrator or host.

How does this manifest?

First of all, if a Greater operates such a forum then he or she will be open about the fact, confirm what they are and explain much about the way we think and operate. These sites are extremely rare. Greaters are very rare and those which operate sites similar to mine are even rarer. However, those that do exist make it clear what the site is and who is operating it. This rarity and the common misunderstanding that all narcissists do not know what they are, leads some people to regard such sites in a mistaken manner.

Secondly, a Lesser would not operate such a forum. He or she has no idea what he or she is and being utterly devoid of empathy (including cognitive empathy), it would never occur to the Lesser to devise such a site. They have no interest in appearing as a saintly figure and they have no desire to listen to the woes of others. The Lesser will frequent the forums but they will not run them, indeed they prefer to utilise someone else’s work to enable them to boast about their own (supposed) encounters with a narcissist and then take centre stage as they brag about their life style, attack other commenters and do so with an utter lack of awareness as to their behaviour and of course, what they are.

Thirdly, it is the Mid-Ranger who poses the problem with regard to the creation and running of these forums. Why the Mid-Ranger? Again, he or she does not know what she is but these sites appeal to them because:-

  1. They are able to engage in their façade management. The Mid Range Narcissist genuinely believes that he or she is a good person, a decent person , an empathic person. It is other people who are the horrible, abusive narcissists. Not them.
  2. The site gives them an excellent vehicle to sound off about their own perceived mis-treatment. The Mid Ranger loves a good Pity Party, Compassion Conference or Sympathy Symposium and those that interact with these people buy into this.
  3. It enables them to continue a campaign against those the Mid Range Narcissist perceives as the abuser. Thus the ex-girlfriend, the parents, the boss or the once upon a time best friend, all find themselves routinely smeared and the validation that the site’s readers provides to the Mid Range Narcissist only goes to consolidate in their minds that they are a good person and that they are truly the victim.

The Mid Ranger is the narcissist who you will find operating these forums (or fora if you prefer) . Of course not all of the online support forums are operated by our kind, far from it, but there is a noticeable presence by our kind. Indeed, I have had many of my readers express their concerns and suspicions about certain sites and their provenance, based on their experiences there and what they have witnessed.

This is difficult for people to recognise. They will have some familiarity naturally with the idea of narcissism, since why else are they at a narcissist abuse support forum?! However, it is highly likely that their skills have not yet become attuned to recognising our kind and certainly not this particular wolf in sheep’s clothing.

What then are the indicators which show that a narcissist is operating the site (or is involved as a moderator or administrator)? Based on what I have witnessed at certain sites, you should be aware of the following

  1. Invalidation. The subject of narcissism is both emotive and complex and therefore people have various experiences, opinions and theories. Some may simply be incorrect. Some may be based on a misunderstanding. Some however remain valid because that is the experience of the individual. The Support Forum Fraud (“SFF”) will reject out of hand the experience of the reader or commenter if it disagrees with, is at odds with or contradicts something stated by the SFF. Rather than recognising a difference of opinion, or politely explaining why the reader’s view is mistaken, the SFF will be dismissive.
  2. Aggressive. If the reader holds their ground with the SFF then they will be treated in an aggressive fashion. The reader is not insulting or provocative and merely states their view. They are treated to an aggressive response from the SFF. This is the manifestation of the MRN’s ignited fury. They will be told they know nothing, that they are being ridiculous, that the SFF knows far better and reminded that the SFF operates the forum.
  3. Labelling. The SFF will label the reader as an abuser or as a narcissist. I have seen this happen on many occasions and is a rapid dose of projection designed to put down, invalidate and insult the reader.
  4. The Labelling also has a further effect. It acts as a call to arms to other readers to launch into an attack against the hapless reader. The SFF expects their readership to gang up on this ‘narcissist’ and tell them what they are and drum them from the forum. Who are those who respond to this clarion call of the SFF? They belong to two groupsΒ  ; other narcissists and mis-guided victims. The former group of course do not know what they are. The Lessers will see it as an excellent opportunity for some verbal abuse provocation. The Mid Rangers will see it as a chance to curry favour with the host and demonstrate their own credentials as a ‘good’ person. The Mis-Guided Victims (often newbies) are still very hurt by their experience and their inexperience and current world view causes them to lash out at someone who they have mistakenly seen as a narcissist. It is an easy mistake for them to make, after all, they are still learning and the supposed guru of the host has declared this person to be a narcissist, so it must be true. There will be those, those who are more experienced and empathic who will defend the reader, recognising they are not a narcissist and that the person is entitled to express their opinion. They will be set on also and therefore this often causes others to avoid the fray to begin with.
  5. The host will engage in repeated recollections of their own horrendous treatment at the hands of the narcissist. It will be like a daily sermon as they rail against this person with a zealous enthusiasm which lasts for far too long for that of a genuine victim.
  6. The host having identified a supposed narcissist on the site will not let the matter go. If the reader remains (or is allowed to remain) on the site, they will be repeatedly branded and subjected to passive aggressive remarks. Even once gone or banished, they will be made mention of by the SFF.
  7. The SFF will also make repeated reference to their “online attackers” or their “trolls” in order to gain sympathy from readers. These supposed attackers remain vague and amorphous in identity because they often do not exist, but they are a perception of the SFF.
  8. The SFF will dole out the Pity Plays in order to gain the sympathy and support of their readers. Whilst they will repeatedly make mention of how badly they have been treated by the ‘narcissist’ they were ensnared by, they will also make such comments as “I don’t why I bother doing this at times” and “I am sick of not being appreciated” and “some of you have no idea how much effort this takes”.
  9. Waterworks. If the SFF uses videos on the site or has a YouTube presence then the crocodile, self-pitying tears will flow. Those whose tears are genuine either will not post material containing them (they do not want people to see or regard it as unprofessional) or if they do it is clear it is genuine. The SFF’s waterworks will be forced as they summon up the tears. They will switch them on and off like the flicking of the switch. Once you know what to look for, you will see them.
  10. There is a lack of originality in the material. The SFF can only pose as the supposed empathic supporter of the abused not through actual experience or emotional empathy but through mimicry. Accordingly, the material that is placed on the site will be drawn from elsewhere. Often, the lazier SFF (coupled with their sense of entitlement and lack of accountability) will steal the work of others and either not credit it to the original author or pass it off as their own.
  11. There will be passive aggressive comments made towards the commenters and readers. Again, this is not always obvious to newcomers, but those with experience will soon spot this indicator and allied with points above the picture becomes clear.
  12. Sudden blocking. A reader will find themselves blocked from the site without any explanation or understanding as to what they have done. This passive aggressive response will arise because the SFF has perceived some behaviour of the reader which is unacceptable and thus wounded, has lashed out with this cold fury by providing a Silent Treatment.

Over time, the aggregate of these behaviours will demonstrate the true nature of the person operating the site and you will then realise just who is really behind the supposed caring, empathic persona.

You may have found yourself on the receiving end of such behaviour previously. Of course, you will not experience this behaviour in the future. Why? Well, you have no reason to go anywhere else than here now, have you!?


494 thoughts on “The Support Forum Fraud

  1. cb says:

    I’ve read through many many support forum comments and have experienced and do recognize what you describe HG.

    One more giveaway I’ve noticed is the overall tone, that when these fraud ‘victims’ talk about their supposed narcissist/abuser they seem to do it without fear.
    “And I told my mother One Last Time!!!”

    As if narcissists would not pose any physical threat at all. (blocking doorways & hallways while they speak, whisper or yell, slamming doors etc)
    The rest of us are kind of trembling or quesy when planning to talk to that narc parent or boss of ours.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Interesting and valid point.

  2. Sandra Muller says:

    I feel you explain things much clearer than other forums or youtube channels. Great writing!
    For instance, nobody else explains that the narc never leaves. They always talk about the “final discard” and how horrible it was to the victim. With your writings I udnerstood, the final discard is in the control of the victim because the narc always returns. I think also other spaces do not describe as well the different type of relationships that exist with a narc.

    You really cover broadly. Great work and writing. I like that everything is very clear and direct.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Sandra, I am pleased you think so.

  3. Naturelovin Hippichic says:

    What does one do to if they have proof of a predator who is a creator/admin of a support group for cptsd?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Stay away from the group, warn others where possible using credible proof but be wary of a backlash.

  4. Yolo says:

    Of course, there’s only one drop dead gorgeous person and that’s H.G. 😊 We are allowed to mention those that don’t hold a candle to H.G.looks and of course in true narc form he will either disagree or discredit their role. πŸ˜ŠπŸ˜ŠπŸ˜‚Jk, but he will chime in as he see fit.

  5. Heather Hanson says:

    So glad to have found this particular column. I’m afraid to admit that I’ve fallen victim to some overzealous moderators on another forum site for those of us who have been mistreated by narcissists. For quite some time I had found solace and validation in participating in such a great forum (or so I thought).

    Within the last week or so I had commented on the site about a particular youtube video that another poster had uploaded. I commented that the person in the youtube video was very inspirational and that I had actually heard her speak in person very recently, sharing her story of abuse by her mother and a long story about her own drug use, prostitution, etc. She has reached recovery and is working with professionals to help them help others experiencing trauma, drug and alcohol use, as well as behavioral health issues.

    Anyways, I commented that not only was this person extremely inspirational, but she is drop-dead gorgeous in real life. I truly meant the drop-dead gorgeous as a huge complement. No sexism intended as I am also a female.

    Well…..I ended up getting suspended by the moderators for using the term drop-dead gorgeous. So for those of you who don’t understand the meaning of that term, it means breathtakingly beautiful. Well I get a message from the mods saying that I can’t use that term so I get suspended. I protested and explained the meaning of the term only to get a canned response that the term is “subjective” and name-calling is not allowed on the board. They said I can’t resort to name-calling and gave a ridiculous explanation about diversity, which had NOTHING to do with the complement that I was commenting on.

    Well…needless to say I believe I’m being gaslighted by these overzealous mods and they refuse to acknowledge they made a mistake by flagging my comment. All they had to do was acknowledge they didn’t realize that I was paying a complement and release me from my suspension. By noooo! They can’t do that which leads me to believe one of two things…either the mods are true narcs and can’t admit they made a mistake and/or they enjoy gaslighting people when they do point out mistakes. Or perhaps they are just flat-out incompetent, I don’t know.

    Oh the irony and hypocrisy in all of that. Well if there is anything I learned from this forum is that when you realize you are dealing with covert narcs, you just need to walk away. So now I think I shall delete my account which will leave holes in their forums as I had posted more than 400 times on their site. Geesh!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      An excellent example HH and welcome. The phrase ‘drop dead gorgeous’ is a compliment and is not name-calling.

    2. Cβ˜… says:

      indeed… go N/C with that forum and STAY HERE…. you are on the right track, imo

      1. HG Tudor says:

        HG approves.

        1. Yolo says:


          I ask a suspect about a boxer. ” He’s a showboat. I don’t like him personally or boxing wise.”

          Me: Really I think he’s earned the right.
          Him:ewe tomato..tomatoe
          Him: I’ll agree to disagree

          He proceeded to talk about his fighting style and compare him with heavy weights. I told him that’s stupid you can’t compare the divisions. So, then he lied about when he boxed πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚he never mentioned boxing before. He went as far to say Ali was humble to his opponents wth. I said no. He said well he was a showboat too but with different principles. How so? He said that’s the extension of it.
          Confirmed Lesser.

  6. Rhyming Fun says:

    Tappan Zee,

    I will try to stick around now, and then.

    Indeed, there is much insight and knowledge to be gained from Mr. Tudor.

    Thank you, TZ, for friendly welcome πŸ™‚

  7. Rhyming Fun says:

    I came upon your article, Mr. Tudor, in my WP Search Engine and I felt the stir to comment. Anyone who knows me is aware of my story in that this very same thing happened to me in which you have so eloquently explained above.

    I was on a Facebook Support Group healing from the very first Narcissist- there were others before him, but now I had come to find out what the word “Narcissist” really meant- and in this FB Group, while I was still vulnerable and healing, I got ravaged by bullies, Narcissists, and Narcissists’ Enablers, who were actually administrators.

    To top it off, I was then played, personally, by a Narcissist, who took his presence off this same FB Support Group in order to hook me, romantically. Thus, I had it coming at me from all four corners, so to speak, and in a very vulnerable time in my life to boot.

    Your article rings with such truth that I find it immensely validating, and in this regard, reassuring.

    Thank you for sharing your awareness, knowledge, and time with us.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

      1. Tappan Zee says:

        Ironic we only get the cold harsh truth here. From a greater. That is nothing but honest. Preys on no one. We get in insider look. With no risk of vulnerability. Other than our own myths being shattered. His work, insight and sharing is profound. Stick around RF.

  8. NarcAngel says:

    Hi Yolo

    I should have reserved any comment until HG offered his “work up” to your suggestions. It sounded like you were suggesting a sort of crowd-funding (5 people donating $20 each for example) towards someones consult who had financial issues. Problem is this is the internet. A virtual world. Who would determine who can and cannot afford to pay? Who would be in charge of this fund? What accounting would there be of the monies donated since consults are private? You have no doubt seen people post here how they think HG is taking advantage of us through receiving fuel and other comments on how we need to wake up. I can only imagine how it would look for a NARCISSIST to basically be in charge of a charitable trust and how that may discredit the commendable work that he is doing here now. Really, his email consult is so reasonable I dont know who could not cough it up as its really a need and not a want if you are affected that badly. And reading the articles and comments is free until such time as you can afford it. Perhaps his idea is altogether different but inspired by your comment and workable-that remains to be seen. Just my immediate thought was that money changes everything, and that if Empaths still have this level of trust in dealing with a narcissist (no matter how helpful they view him to be), that they still have a lot of work to do.

    This was not intended to be anti-HG and I think he knows I respect him enough to know that my concern is how it may appear and reflect negatively on his blog and reputation, and not my feeling towards him personally.

    1. Jenna says:

      Narcangel, just to clarify it wasn’t my idea lol! I think pple may take offense to being offered charity imo.

    2. Yolo says:

      Narc Angel

      Thanks for expounding. Yep, that would be me still have several levels and layers to deal with. Jenna said it wasnt her but someone bought it up prior to me mentioning it to Indy. I personally thought it was a great idea because I have read comments where a poster’s said they couldnt afford the books or consults. Someone even suggested that poster could go on Amazon and read the introductions. I recall reading that and thinking how sad.

      It never occured to me that I would be entrusting a narc with my money. As that have never been a issue for me. I would give a complete stranger money before any of the narcs.

      No crowd funding or go fund me accounts. I give to Hands of Hope monthly because i see their work. Donate to Salvation Army and Red Cross.I will never intentionally give to a cause that i dont deem is worthy. I dont give to Goodwill and other charites due to the reasons you listed.

      Again, thank you. I will use this as a learning opportunity.

  9. NarcAngel says:

    Cant really put it all into words right now but I have a bad feeling about the ‘charitable” consults idea. On the face of it, it sounds like it should be a great idea (very empathic) and maybe I just dont have enough info, but it seems like it could taint the integrity of the blog.

    1. Yolo says:

      Interesting NA, I know you mentioned you can’t come up with the words to describe. I think it was Jenna who originally mentioned it and of course I thought it was a great idea. It started with I assumed was a joke for HG to provide free consults and I believe he replied pay for the blog.

      I didn’t consider or see it from your view, can you please provide more information on how you think the idea may compromise the blog.

      Thank you in advance for your response.

      1. Jenna says:

        Hi yolo! I tried posting but it didn’t go thru so let’s try this again.

        No it was not me who made the comment. I remember it also but i can’t remember who made it.

        I will get back to ur other comment shortly as i am out shopping rn!

        1. Yolo says:

          Yeah, shopping. I get excited just reading thr wordπŸ˜ŠπŸ’„πŸ‘ πŸ‘’πŸ‘’

      2. Jenna says:

        Yolo, i ended up buying a medium blue handbag with gold colored zippers. It will match match well w my dark blue h&m jeans that fit v nicely. My ex used to say ‘u look hot in jeans.’ Sigh…

        1. Yolo says:


          I bet your your bag is beautiful. I love H&M clothing and accessories especially when they collaborate designers my fav was Balmain.

          My last bag purchase a few weeks ago was a blue botkier with gold zippers crossed the front it was motostyle super edgy. I smiled when I read that your bag was blue with gold zippers. I do most of my shopping online where I am able to score really good deals. Shopping is my therapy 😊 in that since I have been therapy for years.

          I have also found ways to recoup some of my money back and more and I really enjoy it. I resell gently used and new items and net a decent profit.

          I also like to buy vintage pieces to refurbished and repurposed😊 I am 5 minutes from a 55 an older community so estate sales every week.

          In response to the expressing itself of letting it fester does help immensely although I was never a push over I would let things go just to keep the peace but would obsess over it silently.

          “True, sweet justice is receiving more in return than what was originally taken” Unknown

          Have a wonderful weekend
          Peace and Hugs

      3. Jenna says:

        I enjoyed reading abt ur shopping experiences!
        U too! Have a great wknd yolo!

  10. Yolo says:

    Hi Indy and Jenna,

    I met with the MFT from Kaiser today, it was a joke. I have a lot of words for MFT, but I will withhold them for now. The thing said she was
    going to refer me to a pre dbt assessment. It was more concerned about how I found out about this form of treatment. That crazy bitch said I was working with national mental health association. I told her I was familiar with it but a online support group triggered the memory.

    The thing inquired about the type of people that were on the site. I said various personality types and people that were affected by narcisst. I asked”do you know what at narcisst is? Do you know the affects after involvement with one “? It turned it’s head and asked about the codependent group. The only thing we agreed on is I am not a codependent.

    Omg, H.G she acted like I was a narc.

    1. Jenna says:

      Yolo, sounds like u had an unpleasant experience and she doesn’t sound very genuine or accomodating. I’m sorry it turned out like that.

      1. Yolo says:


        Thank you, I don’t know how i thought things was going to be different this time afterall it is a HMO. I felt better after sending her a email expressing my feelings. I told her i would have morr respect for her had she just said f*** off.

        My last therapist told me to not hold in my thoughts good or bad if it’s going to affect me.

        1. Jenna says:

          Yolo, for a borderline it’s v difficult not to be able to express ourselves. We feel trapped. I am glad u wrote that email. Keep expressing ur feelings. I am working on that myself. Hugs. 🌷

          1. Yolo says:


            Sorry it took so long to reply. I just received an link in my email. I posted on another page I started my therapy and I actual think it’s going to work thanks for the info from you and Indy. I pray that you find a decent group as well.

            I missed a lot lately but I have gained much more. October, i will dedicate more time and will be allowed to promote H.G. work for national DV month. I am also donated my books to One of the girls in my group she’s unaware but I suspect her boyfriend may be one of them.😐 I did not mention any labels just told her they help get over the ex. We aren’t suppose to process in groups it’s very hard and frustrates her to keep it in. DBT we only focus on the tools to use to change our behaviour , regulate emotions and so on.

            We process one on one with our assigned therapist.

            Again, I hope all is well. I wish you the very best.

            H.G. again I would be remiss to not acknowledge your work and how greatful I am.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome Yolo.

  11. shantily says:

    Has anyone mentioned the couple in Australia? He’s an admitted narcissist and she’s the one now stepping up to the plate and controlling their marriage. πŸ€¦πŸΌβ€β™€οΈ I bought the stupid ebook printed it out and saw every ridiculous tactic fail right before my eyes and tossed it straight into the garbage. That misinformation perpetuates the illusion of being able to … control the relationship and hold narcissists accountable for their bad behaviour (by calling your pastor on him the cops on him blah blah blah ) I kid you not !!! πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

    His books ( the narcissist husband) articles are some πŸ˜‚drivel about appreciating your mate…

    Good lord and unfortunately that’s where my “is there a cure or hope for a narcissist” google search led me 6 months ago πŸ‘ŽπŸ‘Ž

    Kept my hope alive and that’s not ok

    1. HG Tudor says:

      This kind of dangerous and inaccurate “information” irritates me. Thank you for mentioning Shantily.

      1. shantily says:

        Ditto HG, you’re welcome and his material is such utter snivelling rubbish he’s a total failure as a believable Narcissist πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

    2. Star says:

      Omg I could very easily go into a giant rant about that couple. When I think of the amount of victims who read that crap and think… ok I can control this situation, I can somehow some way manage this very disordered individual, even tho I myself am not in a healthy place due to years of abuse. And some of the victims that read this shit are so lost and broken and desperate, they hold on to this blind hope like a lifeline. It’s so sad and so sick how this couple ” empowers ” a victim to believe they have any sort of power in a very sick and toxic dynamic. Uhg, every time I hear of these works I feel a blind rage and literally have to take a deep breath and count to 30 to maintain composure.HG, your works are blunt and triggering, but they are realistic and truthful. And the truth, I feel ,is the only way a victim can truly free oneself!Anyway, my personal rant for the day πŸ˜‚

      1. shantily says:

        Hi Star their site was the first I visited by googling “the cure for Narcissism” they proclaim the have “the cure”! Kept me thinking there was a cure for a very long time. Their dogma is dangerous for victims. Period. On every level. I don’t care what HG’s motives/agenda’s are he knows why and how to get the narc out of your life for good, because that is the only solution. ( the only cure πŸ˜‰

  12. AH OH says:

    I only posted as this is how I related to the topic. So pardon me if I posted when I clearly was not invited to do so. My bad.

    1. AH OH says:

      The comment for the sushi was in jest. Perhaps you do not know my humor.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        I think you missed mine.

      2. AH OH says:

        HG I will likened this to the previous comment that we talked about. You know how I look at your responses. You might be slipping a bit.

  13. K says:

    Carrie: Wait! Have you ever been in love?
    Big: Abso-fucking-lutley…

    My favorite line and character (Big). It figures; he is a narcissist!

    1. Diva says:

      My favourite character is Samantha……so extreme and so much fun……she was everything that I wanted to be….but never will be……and now I know why!!!! I suppose it is no surprise that we are all seemingly being drawn to the narc characters, even though we had no idea that they were narcs….well I certainly didn’t until today.

    2. πŸ€” says:

      I was never big on Big.
      I could have had a golden period with A. Petrovsky tthough. And I would definitely go all super dirty empath with Mikhail Baryshnikov.

  14. Yolo says:


    Thank you for your response. I realize you’ve only been on a few months. And , the question about which one of the women H.G. would attract or which one would be attracted to him was said in jest. I see you are a fast learner and your response was right regarding the chameleon traits, 😊 Not your words, used for association.
    I am a big fan of the show and when I saw mention of Samantha it made me wonder was her role portrayed as a narcisst. Which lead to asking the question about HG.

    H.G. for entertainment purposes only would a Elite Greater such as yourself target the fictional character Samantha from Sex In The City? Also, out of the 4 women would you target for IPPS?

    Thanks in advance, I know it’s probably a silly question. However, I see this as learning opportunity.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Yolo,

      I do not have a huge familiarity with Sex and the City but I know of it. Purely for entertainment, here is my breakdown of each of the characters from my perspective of Greater Elite

      1. Carrie Bradshaw

      A clear target for an IPPS or Shelf IPSS. Why? She is an empath and exhibits the empathic traits of honesty, decency, moral compass but especially love devotee. She is a firm believer in the concept of love and is dedicated to finding that lasting intimate partner. She has her long-standing friendship about people she clearly cares about.
      In terms of class traits, she appeals to an elite because she has some intelligence and creativity (she writes a column), is interested in fashion, dining out, attending bars, she is highly sociable and therefore has a good mix of cerebral and somatic traits.
      I do not know her childhood story (or if it was ever revealed during the show) but I suspect there is some damage there because she is very susceptible to our kind because:-
      a. She is pursued repeatedly and succumbs to the overtures of Mr Big – clearly one of our kind;
      b. She can be lured away from a relationship – thus is a Dirty Empath – as she commences an affair when she is with the interior designer chap
      c. She succumbs to love bombing – Petrovsky (another narcissist) love bombs and controls her

      Bradshaw will provide significant fuel owing to her empathic traits, her collective class traits appeal to an elite and she is clearly damaged as she falls prey to at least two of our kind.

      2. Charlotte York

      A clear target for an IPPS. ‘fish’ ‘shooting’ ‘barrel’ all spring to mind. Nearly off the charts in terms of empathic traits – compassionate (deals with Trey’s impotence and does not let it stand in the way of getting married), love devotee (utterly obsessed with finding the one and her knight in shining armour), moral compass (strong religious background), honest, decent, animal lover – the empathy just flows.
      In terms of class traits also appealing to an elite – over achiever therefore strong academics, but was a model when a teenager, prom queen, has a degree, always well-turned out, perfectionist – therefore classic mix of the cerebral and somatic traits. She also targets men who of professional and impressive standing (finance, law, medicine) and therefore would be naturally drawn to a Greater Elite since many would be in those professions.
      In terms of special traits, she is a perfectionist and therefore this suggests she has a strong need to control everything around her. This smacks of being generated by some kind of damage but also means that if she is losing control she will react in an emotional fashion very easily, thus lots of fuel.
      Would be very easy to ensnare.

      3. Miranda Hobbes

      Shelf IPSS. Has evident empathic traits (she cares for Steve when he has testicular cancer and also his dementia-suffering mother). She has a child and cares for her child as a single parent for a period of time. Has clear honesty, decency and a strong moral compass. Not so much a love devotee.
      In terms of class traits probably leans more towards a cerebral choice rather than that of an elite, hence I would choose her as a shelf. Her status as a lawyer ticks the boxes with regard to cerebral traits and she will have decent connections too (residual benefit) , but on the somatic side does not have the strength of traits and indeed she accepts a lower league partner (the bar-tender) and lives in cramped accommodation. Miranda would be a useful bolt-on from time to time re character traits and residual benefits, but her fuel provision would not be good enough to make her a consideration for an IPPS for me. She has an inherent cynicism of men and relationships (thus denoting her logic often prevails) which means she may prove costly in terms of control for an IPPS and is better served as a Self IPSS.

      4. Samantha Jones

      Dirty Little Secret. Why? Ms Jones is a narcissist, clearly Somatic. Self-centred, opinionated, high jealousy, infidelity, poor boundary recognition, no emotional empathy, multiple sexual partners, sexually fluid. She would serve well as a DLS for intense bursts of fuel provided through sex and also manipulating her in terms of triggering her huge jealous streak. She also has PR connections so there are some residual benefits. Her narcissism means that she is unsuitable for IPPS and even a Shelf IPSS, one could only countenance her in small doses but treating her that way, as she would seek to seduce and find the resistance of romantic interaction compelling and would heighten her attempts to seduce resulting in increased fuel provision.

      I could go into more detail but time prohibits.
      Of the four characters I would target install Jones as a DLS, have the other three as IPSSs, making York candidate IPSS and then eventual IPPS. Hobbes and Bradshaw would be placed on the shelf but interacted with as NISSs during the golden period of York (since as a Greater one would easily maintain them in the fuel matrix) with Jones being disengaged from. Once York enters devaluation, Jones would be hoovered and used to triangulate with York, Hobbes and Bradshaw would be returned to IPSS and used as shelf IPSSs (Bradshaw has potential to become a Candidate IPSS). I would look to organise a threesome involving Jones and York premised on this being York’s (ill-fated) chance to escape devaluation and save the relationship, but in reality it would just be a fuel fest. Disappointed with Bradshaw failing to make the grade she would be maintained as shelf IPSS as I turn my attention to Wendy Rhoades of Billions who would be a Candidate IPSS within moments.

      1. MLA - Clarece says:

        Um…are you sure you’re not a huge closet fan of the show? You pretty much nailed it. Lol

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Ha ha, thanks Clarece. I can honestly state I have watched no more than say five episodes but I know about aspects of it as a consequence of osmosis by needing to know elements when I have mirrored targets or because a relevant appliance was a fan of the programme so they would tell me about it and I must have absorbed knowledge about it. I am pleased you agree that I pretty much nailed it.

          1. MLA - Clarece says:

            Plus it was hard not to catch some episodes leading into The Sopranos back when HBO dominated Sunday nights.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You don’t fool me Clarece, you lapped it all up. As soon as that xylophone started you ran in and cheered them on!

          3. MLA - Clarece says:

            Absolutely for me. I meant for you. Lol

          4. HG Tudor says:

            I’m with you.

      2. Snow White says:

        Fascinating HG!
        When are we you ever wrong????
        Of course Samantha is a narcissist because that’s the one I would go for. Her looks aren’t my type but her personality would have me hooked.
        Always learning from you.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          A status of always learning is no bad thing indeed SW.

          1. Snow White says:

            I literally talk about what I learn from you on a daily basis. I will always be grateful.

            I’m glad to hear that you approve of Billions.
            My cousin got me watching and it’s a series that I need to catch up on. I enjoyed the characters.

        2. MLA - Clarece says:

          HI Snow!
          Hope your school year is starting off great!
          I was surprised about your answer being Samantha! No way! When I first started watching that show I was in my late 20’s and I knew nobody or could relate to any of the lives of the 4 ladies but it was like getting to visit a fantasy land. I never cared for Samantha though. Loved her humor but in real life, I would be oil and water with an individual like that. I was safely tucked away in a marriage bubble at the time but my favorites were Charlotte and Carrie.

          1. Snow White says:

            Hi Clarece!!!
            You made me laugh. Lol
            It’s that big personality with excitement that can draw me in. As far as who my personality would be well that would be a mix like you. I have Carrie’s fashion sense and confidence but I am as naive as Charlotte.
            I was in that bubble too Clarece and it was a shock to every fiber in my body when I met my ex.

            I did a lot of observing when I went to the bar a few weeks ago and you can put people in the four categories of these women. I hate to admit it but I was still drawn to the ones that had the fiery personalities. I have been discussing what are appropriate interactions with professionals and just acquaintances. That brought up bosses and my daughter said that was totally inappropriate to have an after hours relationship with them. Now I’m going back and reevaluating friendships that I have had. Boundaries are the key to my issues.
            There are also many times that people have made inappropriate sexual references to me and I’m not sure what they are expecting me to say. Now I understand why my ex said them but I’m afraid now that everyone is a narcissist.
            I didn’t mind being in the crowd but deciphering everyone’s intentions was overwhelming. One guy did just come out and ask me if I was married. That was good but then an hour later he came up from behind and grabbed my hand and kissed it. That was too much for me and in those situations I’m caught off guard. I’m not quick with my words. My daughter would have decked him. Lol

            I just had my first meeting with the school today and unfortunately that has set off my emotions. I’m have been crying and cussing. Lol… the school district has filled me with hate and that combined with my injuries and Cptsd had me at my limit. I warned everyone to stay away from me. lol
            Sitting in my room with ice.
            I find it much harder to look on the bright side these days and it takes a few days for me to come back down from this emotional state. I hate it.
            This is just one of the affects of a narcissistic relationship that I can’t explain to people.

            Is your daughter back in school? My son starts next week here and I go back after Labor Day.
            Hope you have something good planned this weekend. β˜€οΈ

          2. MLA - Clarece says:

            I wish I had the right words of comfort. Teaching is a hard thing because of the sheer volume of kids and adults you are surrounded by every day, especially if you aren’t feeling it. Talk about having to mask you’re feelings. You’d probably love to walk in one day and say “Kids, how about we learn how to chew gum, blow bubbles and doodle, because I don’t wanna teach today.” You’re never allowed a bad day because that could be when the principal comes in to observe for your yearly evaluation.
            It’s been easy for me to be more reclusive and avoid people working for a small company. No walk in traffic except for UPS, FedEx or when a vendor visits. I work with my best friend and there’s always a lot of laughs.
            You’re still healing. I think it will be the case, in a few more months, especially when you’re physical injury is better and you can get back to the gym, your overall mental state will naturally become elevated and more positive. All of a sudden you’ll realize, oh, I’m not hating people as much. Lol
            At least be flattered you still get a hit on at the bars! That was never me. Not when I was young and in college, and not now. I have very attractive friends but I’m the cute sidekick with a winning personality. That one gets typically overlooked. Story of my life.
            That is why JN was such a force of nature with me. The Frat guys never noticed me when I was in college, and he pursued me hard for 4-5 months. I became putty in his hands. Lol

          3. windstorm2 says:

            Ha, ha!! You made me laugh! You’d be surprised how many teachers routinely have those “I don’t feel like teaching today” days. Some with the doodling and gum chewing! I’d imagine they all do sometimes – we are all human. I’ve certainly had my share, although I did try to dress them up to have some academic value.

          4. MLA - Clarece says:

            My ex-husband started off as a high school Oral Comm teacher, so on his bad days, he’d find a current events topic or “experience” for kids to talk about for what would make quality speeches and let them carry the class conversing. Lol
            Then when he switched to Freshman English, there’s always the “movie” day fallback.

          5. windstorm2 says:

            Movie days!! I mainly taught 6th grade science and I had every Bill Nye video that pertained to my content!! 11-12 yr olds love Bill Nye. National Geographic, Planet Earth, Jeff Corwin – if he could tie in a video I sure did!

          6. Snow White says:

            Good morning Clarece!!!
            It’s been a long week. I have been training my son’s new aide and teachers. Sorry for the late response.
            Your words are always comforting. I enjoy our conversations and welcome any advice and sharing that you want to do.
            Some days I would love to have a job with few people to interact with. I think it’s great for you to work with your best friend. I may not always get up wanting to teach but once the kids walk in I have to admit they can immediately change my attitude. They can make me happy like no one else can. Children have a lot of power and a lot of love to give. And there is no time to think of all my issues with paint everywhere. Lol
            I continue to learn lessons about healing. At this point I had hoped that I would be further along, emotionally and physically. I just keep reading because it has to end one day. I’ve been reading about grounding, DBT, breathing methods, and others. It’s regulating the emotions that I’m having the problems with. It put my mind to ease when the CPTSD workbook that I’m reading justified what I’m experiencing. My brother wanted to know why I still have breakdowns and I told him that he will never understand. Very hard to make people get it.
            I don’t want to walk around with hate but it’s just one of the emotions that pop out. And then that makes me sad.
            You are WAY more than a sidekick Clarece!!!
            You are a great catch. Beautiful, sensitive, feisty, intellectual, and caring. It was flattering but at the same time annoying. Lol… it’s a whole other world out there at the bars.
            Many hugs

          7. MLA - Clarece says:

            Thanks Snow! I’m sure you’ll school year will be much stronger than last year without all the distraction and anguish that comes along with checking your phone hoping to hear the Narc, but then when you do it’s like a tidal wave of emotions trying to figure out what role they want you in this time. And once you’re healed from your physical injury that will elevate your mood. I can tell you like being physically active and that’s probably feeding the negative, hateful feelings making you restless.
            I appreciate your kind words too. Hugs back!

        3. Yolo says:

          Snow White you are funny too cute. In one episode I think she was dating a woman. My choice would be Carrie 😊

          1. Snow White says:

            Hello Yolo!
            Hope you had a great week.
            Carrie would be a great person to be in real life!!!!
            I always wanted to live in a big city and I would love her wardrobe.
            And I believe you are right about her dating a woman.
            I love to hear HG talk about characters in shows and books and all the famous people. I’m still sad about his diagnosis of Princess Diana. πŸ˜”
            It just proves to me that I lived under a rock for 43 years. Lol

          2. jenna says:

            Snow, what was his diagnosis of princess diana? I must have missed it. I hope she’s not a narc!?!?😱😱

          3. Snow White says:

            Hi Jenna!
            That’s what I thought! 😩
            I had such fond memories of watching her from her engagement to having her boys and was upset to hear that she was a narcissist. I remember hearing the news of her death and glued to the tv when her funeral was on.
            HG’s news made me sad. Another dose of reality for me.
            He should be the one to to make all the movies that report the updates and the “REAL” story on some of these personalities.

          4. Lisa says:

            Hi, I may have missed something that HG has written about Diana . But if you are referring to my question to him that we have narcissists in our Royal family to which he agreed but did not say who although it’s not really hard to work out. It has been said Diana was a Borderline and HG agreed this could be possible . However there was a lot of people behind the scenes that wanted to discredit her emotional state so we can never be sure . However if you look at her erratic behaviour at times which included making hundreds of silent calls to a married man . Plus her own childhood, my personal opinion was she did have a personality disorder but was probably too overly emotional to have full NPD but certainly displayed narc traits in many ways . I think it’s much more likely she was a Borderline. However this does not make her crazy has some royal insiders would like to portray her because she would not conform . Very convenient she died in my opinion , solved a lot of problems for the men in grey.

          5. Snow White says:

            Hi Lisa!
            How are you?
            I find her whole story to be sad. I’m sure there is way more to the story that is buried and covered up. The conversation about her was awhile ago and my memory is not that good. Lol
            I just remember being distraught about finding out about her because I always saw her as the victim.
            Are you in the U.K.? Always wanted to visit there.
            Hope you have a good weekend.

          6. Lisa says:

            Hi Snow White, I’m good thanks yes I’m in the UK about an hour outside of London. I used to talk to you last year on here, you sent me some kind and encouraging messages , I took a break from this blog for about a year and was going to say Hello when I came back but thought you probably wouldn’t remember me as there are lots of people coming and going I would imagine . Clarece was also very helpful as always. Yes the Diana thing is a mystery I think she was genuinely a compassionate empathetic person but I think she also showed some narc traits. She knew how to manipulate the media very well and also craved adulation and attention. I do think she was genuinely a naive girl that married for love and was really a lamb to the slaughter within the cold machine that is the royal institution. No room for feelings or emotion to be shown. She did act a bit borderlineish though with her countless affairs and was a bit of a stalker with them lol this has been well documented. I didn’t know HG believes her to be a narcissist I thought he suspected possible borderline. How’s things with you? Do you feel like your starting to get over her or do you still feel stuck 😘I took mine back when he hoovered last September and I stayed 10 months , I now know there’s no hope so I left 4 months ago . He’s been hoovering but I’ve ignored for the first time ever. So I’ve come back here to help me try and resist the hoovers and continue to learn . And annoy HG with all my daily question ha ha

          7. Snow White says:

            Hello Lisa!
            I’m so glad that you reminded me. I absolutely remember you. I believe Love and I were wondering about you. It is hard when people come and go but I do remember the ones that stay for awhile. Lol
            It’s a huge blow when you finally realize that there is no hope left. I can understand that you went back and then decided to leave. I know I was in denial. Some days I still let the good times in my head. I know I shouldn’t but that’s why I’m still here. I still need HG and the readers here. I do miss it here when I can’t comment on a daily basis but it’s nice to jump right back in.
            How close in proximity are you to him? How is he contacting you?
            I’m glad that you returned. It’s the best place for learning and the maintenance I need.
            I have definitely made progress and that’s the most important. Wouldn’t say I’m stuck but it’s hard to be in this world with the “new me”.
            I still miss her and but she doesn’t control my thoughts 100% of the time like she used to. She still puts out bait to try and lure my on social media but even that I have a different outlook on.
            Still in therapy but relying on my own reading.
            Really glad that you updated me!!!
            My memory can be terrible at times. Lol

          8. Lisa says:

            Hi Snow, thank you for getting back to me , I’m glad you feel your making progress. Does she contact you on social media ?
            I live in the same small town as my narc, I moved back to this town a few years ago, after being away pretty much since I left school. Him and I were first boyfriend and girlfriend at school and I hadn’t seen him since leaving school. So when we met up 3 years ago for the first time I thought it was meant to be and I think that sentimentality has also kept me stuck and has contributed to me overlooking so much. I knew nothing of narcissism when I met him but he was an awful boyfriend regardless of NPD, so I blame myself for allowing it. I just wanted it to work. I learnt a lot about cluster B while split up from him last year for 4 months and this blog was my therapy and I learnt so much but I wasn’t sure if he was a narc. You can’t go around labelling every shit boyfriend a narc 😱. So I went back to him when he hoovered , I had to be sure and have no regrets for leaving him. I continued to read HG’s posts and buy the books. I was with him for 10 months and it was painful to observe him and see that he ticks every box . So I left again and here I am trying to get over it and trying to understand more about myself. Yes he has hoovered . A phone call, some emails, some texts , a few pictures sent to me, his sister and mum contacting me. They know he has issues but have no clue what NPD is. I’ve ignored everything and it’s been hard. 2 weeks ago I got a Happy Birthday Lisa text from him. I ignored it. That was the last I’ve heard. He knows it’s different this time as I’ve never ignored like this , he even offered to get help and see a doctor . All Bullshit.
            I would imagine he will not try any further to get me back into a formal relationship.
            A few texts and emails always worked for him before and now it hasn’t. Just proves he really isn’t willing to do anymore than that . I’ve just sold my house and I’m moving away soon to live by the seaside , he knows nothing of this . I still struggle everyday and hope to feel normal again sometime soon . I think HG is our surrogate Narc πŸ˜€ Are you seeing anyone new ?

          9. Snow White says:

            Hello Lisa!!!
            She has not directly contacted me. She will post memes or pictures of herself that I know are meant for me. No one else would get what they mean. She did have one of her lieutenants contact me but that didn’t result in anything. Thank goodness.
            I understand all too well believing in something that was meant to be. It hurts because you feel it and it turns out to be all wrong. This still crushes me because I felt soo strongly about it.
            I don’t blame you for going back and making sure everything was what you suspected. It is something to witness firsthand when you know what to look for. I was happy with my decision to make a final meeting with her because I checked the boxes like you did. Lol
            What you said about labeling every boyfriend a Narc made me laugh. I tend to think everyone around me is. Lol
            Congratulations on ignoring all the hoovers!!!!!
            You should be very proud of yourself. It’s not easy.
            I am glad that you are moving and starting something new. That should help with some of the struggles that you face. I don’t know what normal feels like yet. I still struggle with myself everyday.
            I am still in my marriage but it’s difficult because I don’t feel anything like I did before. I thought by now some feelings and emotions would come back but I just don’t know.
            I wish you continued success and and progress.
            One day at a time Lisa ❀️❀️❀️

          10. jenna says:

            But princess diana was such a humanitarian and seemed to care so much abt the less priveleged. HG, r u sure she was a narc? I mean, in ur opinion?

          11. HG Tudor says:

            You’ve missed what I wrote about her

          12. says:

            HG have you actually written a post about Diana ? If so what is it titled ? Also is there a post about Caroline ? I’m presuming that is who C is ?

          13. HG Tudor says:

            There was a comment about Diana from me yesterday. Yes there is a post about Caroline.

          14. Lisa says:

            What is the post about Caroline called please ?

          15. HG Tudor says:

            Not Tonight Caroline and Sweet Caroline.

          16. jenna says:

            I don’t like missing interesting conversations in the comments section. I try to read everything, but sometimes it’s difficult to keep up. I try to catch up when i can. If i can’t keep up and miss more than a few articles, i feel sad. But i know i should not, as that is being too sensitive.

          17. jenna says:

            My comment is a reply to missing what HG wrote abt diana.

      3. Brian says:

        Interesting analysis HG
        I didn’t like either of those characters because they all were too materialistic.
        The main character only seemed to care about getting tickets to the premiere, the best seats in the restaurant.

        I guess Charlotte was OK , but then there was the perfectionism…

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Every is flawed Brian.

          Save me of course.

      4. Lisa says:

        So spot on HG
        I loved the show but at the time knew nothing of narcs
        OMG yes Big and Samantha
        Do you think the writers know they are writing about narc characters ?
        Charlotte good candidate for Stepford wife !!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No, I don’t think they did know.

      5. Diva says:

        Your response to Yolo has me thinking about “types” of women that narcs are attracted to and I don’t mean empath types. Do they really not have any such “type” as a non narc man would or indeed a non narc woman? I am now realising that they don’t, because the fuel, traits and benefits are all that really matter. I remember asking my 2 narcs what type of woman they preferred……one stated “you are my type.” Seemed like a good answer at the time but now I realise that response = one size fits all………he could have said that to any woman and no doubt had! The other one said “I don’t have a type.” Again honest enough answer, but he had no type because the type did not matter. Any type suited so long as fuel, traits and benefits were forthcoming. Now I see those answers for what they were. They were the answers of a narc. Maybe I should also be focusing on what they aren’t saying and not just what they are saying……..this is getting even more complicated now!!!

      6. Brian says:

        Of course πŸ™‚
        Talking of female characters from the nineties. Are you familiar with the Nanny?
        She seemed fun and more family oriented, didn’t seem to be materalistic.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I don’t know the Nanny, Brian.

      7. Indy says:

        Well, dang…not huge familiarity, huh? That was a thorough character analysis, almost a thesis! Nice, HG!

        I wasn’t fond of the show myself, though the couple of shows I did watch did make me giggle, especially the one with the gray hair. LOL

      8. Ha ha! That was an amazing scenario recap! πŸ™‚ wow.

      9. jenna says:

        Wow! What a detailed answer! So kind of u HG! In fact, it cud have been an article all its own! Pls do such articles in the future, as it wud be a very intrresting read. Maybe the characters frm ‘Friends’?

        Having said that, personally, ‘sex and the city’ nauseates me. I have seen one episode and felt like gagging. A bunch of women who should be at a more advanced stage in life, still bar hopping and sleeping around with anyone who shows the least bit of interest. Yuck! Sarah jessica parker’s role is the most nauseating to me. I’d rather watch HGTV lol!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I was never keen on the show either Jenna.

          1. jenna says:

            Perhaps females like the show more than males would – too much ‘talking’ in the show. Lol!

      10. NarcAngel says:

        Billions. Now theres a show.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Fucking A, NA!

          1. Don’t have showtime at the moment πŸ™ is Billions that good?

            I do miss watching Ray Donovan. Liev Schreiber is a little bit “unfortunate of face” – a term learned from HG πŸ™‚ but there is something about him….

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Billions is excellent. Ray Donovan is not bad.

          3. I may have to call my cable company and threaten to leave so I can get showtime free for three months. Works every time πŸ™‚

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Such a sense of entitlement, tut tut!

          5. πŸ˜‡

        2. MLA - Clarece says:

          YESSSS to Billions, NA! Without giving a spoiler, how about Chuck Rhodes sitting on the bed at the end of Season 2? I was on the edge of the couch when he started laughing.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            MLA Clarece

            I dont watch much tv but that is a GREAT show-you can smell the power coming off of the screen. You could see that Chuck scene and the result coming, but it didnt deter from the satisfaction of seeing it played out. The show is like a glimpse into HGs world and I guess its no mystery which woman holds my interest, but I want to see what happens to both of them.

            I hope StrongerWendy called her cable company lol. Worth it.

          2. πŸ‘

          3. MLA - Clarece says:

            Hi NA! I really like both women for different reasons. They’re both Alpha-females. I found it very interesting when Bobby deleted all of his frantic messages and calls to his wife when she brought the boys back home afte a few days following her departure catching him in the lie about Wendy. Me, I’d want my significant other to see how badly I was worried and wanting to open the lines of communication. I know it comes down to maintaining power and that is never a first priority with me.

      11. Yolo says:


        That was great. You are a genius if you consider yourself not familiar with Sex In the City.

        This provides a clear understanding of the thought process when an elite targets their victims. I see Charlotte the way you describe one of the good docs once as “clean”. Poor Charlotte.

        Petrovsky and Mr. Big definitely narcs.

        You are so talented, you have an innate ability to analyze situations fiction or non-fiction and capture the very essence of story and the people.

        Thank you so very much. I am considering a consult not for the narcs but for self however I am extremely afraids too. I met with a specialist yesterday and its like he tore into my soul. By the end of the session his last question was who wrote Hamlet, I mind was so fuck up I couldn’t remember until i reach my car I just walked away in tears.

        Again, Thank you😊

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome Yolo. Do not fear the consult, it will assist you. As for Hamlet, much can be learned from that Prince of Denmark.

      12. narc affair says:

        Brian…the nanny seemed like a somatic to me.

        1. Indy says:

          Yeah, I agree. To a degree, she was all about make up and hair and nice clothes. However, she did seem to care too. Hmm, maybe traits?

          1. HG Tudor says:


      13. Twilight says:


        Don’t be afraid to consult with HG. He is very professional and can help you work through this.
        It is confidential, one on one he can assist you and be able to give you accurate information in regards to your situation.

        1. Yolo says:

          Thank you twilight. I am strongly considering . I don’t want to talk about the narcs. I want insight on my own issues. Very Narcish 😊

          1. Twilight says:


            Yes this I understand, my first consult was to discuss my ex, my husband and his family, they ones after this has dealt with me and gaining knowledge and insight.
            He is very accurate, he surprised me when he told me what type of empath I am.
            Nothing narcish in wanting to understand oneself on a deeper level.

      14. Brian says:

        Oh yes, looks like I got ensnared there. She does seem like the type to triangulate and give silent treatments to poor lionel as well.

      15. Brian says:

        oops his name Is Maxwell

      16. Kimi says:

        This is spot on, hilarious and article worthy!!!

      17. narc affair says:

        Theres a documentary this weekend on princess diana and if she couldve been murdered. I have no thoughts on that either way.
        Years ago i read a biography about her written by one of her bodyguards i think it was. Back then i had no idea what narcissism was. I do think to be in the spotlight and be in royal circles youd have to have some narc traits or youd be eaten alive. Im surprised HG labels her a narcissist tho. Ive not seen that post or blog. Its posdible maybe she was a dirty angel. What does stick out in my mind is countless pictures of her and an interview about her marriage and her eyes. Her eyes were so full of deep hurt and tears. I do think it was genuine. Her marriage was of convenience and she knew her husband was in love with the very woman that pushed for the marriage which was camilla.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I do not label her a narcissist. I stated previously that I consider her to be a borderline. Of course borderlines have narcissistic traits and are manipulative. I regarded Diana as an individual who was most empathic but also manipulative and likely to be a borderline.

          1. jenna says:

            Hg, borderlines are manipulative? 😩😩😩

          2. HG Tudor says:


          3. Indy says:

            Hi Jenna,
            To be honest, we all are manipulative to one degree or another. For example, how many of us behave in certain ways and express your emotions in certain ways to get another person to look positively toward you or behave in a way you want them to? (I raised my hand)…now often times individuals that have a personality disorder such as BPD or NPD were raised in an environment in which inorder to get your emotional needs or other needs met, you had to learn coping that involved manipulating other people. It is a matter of survival. Now that we are our adults we have to learn how to see our manipulation tactics and use them less often if they are used a lot, and speak your feelings and needs clearly, because it can impact relationships. It can drive friends away and amp up drama and fights. I had to learn this, speaking up, saying no, and stating my needs…it was hard at first though with time it gets easier.

            So yes, people with various personality disorders are known to use this tactic more than the typical population though it is not only used by those with PD.

            Sending you hugs Jenna. I hope you are well this summer and glad to hear your consults with the Tude are helpful ❀️

          4. jenna says:

            Hi indy! Thx for expanding on that. I always value ur input.
            I am well now. I was not so well last month tho.
            Yes, the consults w HG are extremely helpful. I just booked my 7th! Sooo many questions i ask him. So many scenarios to recount for which i receive answers. I am gaining more clarity and becoming less confused abt many incidents! My family has noticed a positive difference in my mood since i started the consults. Thx for ur interest and concern. Hope u r well too. πŸ’—

          5. Yolo says:

            Yes, very.. to serve our needs but there’s usually no intent to cause harm to others.

          6. jenna says:

            Yolo, u stated “… to serve OUR needs… ” meaning, you are a fellow borderline too? If so, it’s awful isn’t it – the crying, the overwhelming emotions, the need to be heard, to resolve, etc.?
            But i agree that i do not manipulate to harm others. In fact, the majority of the time i hurt myself, which my psychiatrist has pointed out. He said i do not know how to handle the emotions. So i channel that energy into hurting myself instead. I miss that psychiatrist.πŸ˜ͺ He was the first psychiatrist to analyze me so well (i have had 6 due to relocation, hopes of finding someone who can really heal me, etc.) He was my psych for a brief two wk period in the hospital.
            Interestingly enough, he told me that he doesn’t think i’m borderline. He says i have many symptoms of bpd, but that it is a label therapists give if they do not know how else to label you. I still consider myself borderline tho. How else can i explain these overwhelming emotions?

      18. narc affair says:

        Ty for clarifying that HG i didnt see your intitial post about diana. I definitely see narc traits in her biography. It was mentioned her as being possessive and jealous. Despite all this i thought she was classy and miss her.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No problem NA. I posted a medium sized answer to Purple Ribbon Healing (I think) some months ago on the subject.

      19. Kimi says:


        This analysis of the Sex and the City characters needs to be an article. It is both brilliant and relatable, as it identifies characters your readers are already familiar with. I love this and smiled as your comment brought my beloved characters to light! More please!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you Kimi, I appreciate that and since I am such an accommodating host I shall expand it and turn it into an article. If there are any other fictional characters which people would like me to cast my all-seeing eyes over, let me know and I shall consider additional articles.

          1. Lisa says:

            HG, I don’t think it’s article worthy but one of my favourites is Wuthering Heights , could you tell me whether Kathy or Heathcliffe were Narcissists?
            My big favourite is gone with the wind and I recently realised my heroine Scarlet is a narcissist which makes me wonder about my taste in characters and I’m also a Vivien Fan and have read extensively about her own mental health problems , I now have more sympathy for Olivier than I previously did . I’ve always loved old films and a lot of people my age don’t know old movies , my narc did and that wasn’t fake he had a huge collection of old films as do I .

          2. HG Tudor says:

            It is entirely article worthy.

          3. jenna says:

            How about the characters in ‘The Flash.’ It is extremely popular. But it is science fiction, so maybe not?

        2. MLA - Clarece says:

          Agreed! Has plenty of merit as a standalone article and a connectivity factor with so many women adoring those characters. You will probably get a lot of “shares” on that article getting your word out more.

          1. re: article based on sex and the city. Yes, good should do it. However, If you want something that’ll increase your awareness/reach then do the article/analysis on a show/movie that is trending. That way you can ride the coat tails of their ubiquitousness. Game of Thrones for example. However, that show will peak tomorrow so missed the boat a bit on that one. You get the gist of what I’m saying.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Noted. Good point.

          3. windstorm2 says:

            Wow, yes! There’s a ton of potential in GOT! You’d be spoiled for choice on which narcs to write about! That could be ready for next season.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            It’d be easier to say who isn’t!

          5. Lisa says:

            Lol yes exactly , it’s not really a reflection of real life . I think the closer to real life the better . Most people don’t live like game of thrones lol
            People dying quite often !!!
            Might as well write about Ted Bundy

          6. I thick it would be harder to say who isn’t on House of Cards IMHO.

          7. Indy says:

            Haha, even the title GOTs screams Narcland. Games and Thrones, some of their favorite things ~sung like Julie Andrews

          8. windstorm2 says:

            Ooooh! Makes me want to write the lyrics!
            🎢mind games and iron thrones and sadistic killers,
            Incest and winter and all types of thrillers,
            Dragons that fly with the moon on their wings,
            These are a few of my favorite things….,🎢

          9. Indy says:

            Love it, Windstorm!
            **Whirling around in the snow capped mountains**

            Giddy up Draggy!! πŸ‰

      20. Brian says:

        There is a TV show called ‘halt and catch fire’ about a couple of characters based on Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs, the Steve Jobs character is a greater narc.
        I didn’t understand why, after putting together a successful computer the Steve Jobs character set fire to a truck load of the computers and sabotaged the company, but now I do.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I agree with your observation

      21. Kimi says:


        The American comedy, “The Big Bang Theory” is a well-established and on-going show that includes what I believe is a Greater Cerebral Narc, several Empaths, a Matrinarc, mention of a golden child (his counterpart is an empath and a central character) and probably more that I don’t see. The show has 7 main and supporting characters, would be easy and brief to analyze. I’m not sure if this is a show your readers watch regularly though.

        Otherwise, I would love to see and believe your readers would appreciate analysis of classic literature, stories and characters we all have read and enjoyed throughout our lives! I too would love to read about “Wuthering Heights” and “Gone with the Wind.” Maybe some Jane Austin tales or Shakespeare?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          If you are saying Sheldon is a Greater Cerebral, he is not.

    2. Diva says:

      Well Yolo… have your answer now… great detail….I am pleased that you asked about the Sex and The City characters and that HG responded……I didn’t think he would…….my guess about him and the characters wasn’t too far adrift.

      1. Yolo says:


        Yes, but how sad poor Charlotte true love devotee. I bet there’s a lot of Charlotte and Samantha’ s on here and one 1 Miranda. (NA) just kidding NA i know you can take a joke. 😊MLA true he f***** nailed it, as I read my eyes where smiling.

      2. Yolo says:

        Sorry for replying here.

        Indy, thesis. More like a dissertation another Honorary Doctorates😊

    3. AH OH says:

      I would like to way in here on the Sex and the City program. I did not watch it when it was airing. I was still working and single when it was popular. One co-worker who I have know since I was 20 asked me one day if I watched it and I of course said no as who has time being a single mother of three sons. He said “you should because Samantha is you”.

      I finally, in winter 2014, binged watched it while I was in the mountains skiing for the season.

      I would never let anyone eat sushi off my body. So, no, I do not think I am her at this time.

      1. AH OH says:


      2. HG Tudor says:

        I don’t think she was mentioning it for the nyotaimori Ah Oh!

        1. Yolo says:

          Haha HG, do they have the sushi bars there?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Hi Yolo, where’s “there”?

          2. jenna says:

            Yes yolo, don’t be afraid to have a consult. I’ve had four and just booked my 5th! I can’t stop! And it’s more economical for me to consult with him than a therapist who charges $165 for 45 min.
            He’s very professional, courteous, makes me feel comfortable, and has much insight! Take my word for it, it will be more beneficial than talking to a therapist if you’ve been ensnared by a narc! You will feel enlightened and free!

          3. Snow White says:

            Hi Jenna!
            How are you doing?
            I have not had a consult but if that would have been available when I first started this blog that would have been most beneficial. I would recommend any new reader to start right off the bat with a consult. I have learned so much from reading and asking questions but would have gained sooo much more if I had had this done in the beginning.
            I’m still thinking that I should do this.
            Big hugs to you❀️

          4. jenna says:

            Hi snow! Thx for reaching out to me! πŸ’—
            I am doing much better than i was about a yr ago when i came aboard this blog.

            I agree with u. I too, should have started with an audio consult earlier on. It has helped me in a different way than the books and blog. It is like HG can get into the mind of my ex narc and tell me exactly what he was thinking during particular episodes that i always questioned.

            Here, he touches on the surface of reasons behind general narc behavior. But in the consult, tailored to my situation, he explained that the certain behavior i questioned is multi-layered, has a conscious and sub-conscious component, and that is why my ex acted the way he did that particular occasion. Wow! What an eye opener for me!

            And honestly, it is just very relaxing to talk to HG. Knowing he is there when i need to talk is a HUGE support in my life. Without him and this blog, i would probably fall into deep depression. I don’t want to put any pressure on him to keep this blog running forever, but HG can u give us one or two month notice if u decide to close the blog, so we can prepare ourselves mentally?

            Snow, you are a v sensitive person, as am i. I hope ur healing is coming along well. I know u have a pure heart and will touch the lives of ur new students this upcoming yr. They r lucky to have a teacher as sweet as u!! 🌹

          5. Snow White says:

            Hello Jenna!
            I am sooo glad that the consults have helped. I also feel “safe” knowing that I can come here and contact HG if/when I need to do so. I wouldn’t hesitate for a second emailing him if a situation would arise that I needed immediate help. No one else at this point would work for me.
            I am glad to hear how well you are doing. Many things happen to us in a one year span after these relationships. There are plenty of ups and downs.

            Do you have any exciting plans or adventures coming up?

            Thank you for the kind words. Very sweet of you. I appreciate them. You seem very much like me.
            We have both made it though this year. I enjoy seeing the readers though the months that they comment on here. Glad you are still around.
            Many hugs to you ❀️🍎❀️

          6. jenna says:

            Thx snow! And yw. ☺️
            I am glad ur still sharing ur feelings here too. I had not seen u for a month or two sometime this past yr, and was wondering how u were doing. I am v glad ur healing is progressing, as is mine.
            I don’t have anything too exciting planned but i have had enough excitement this summer (long story), so i’m enjoying the peace!
            Hugs to u too snow!! πŸ’—

          7. Snow White says:

            Hi Jenna!
            Yup, I was gone for a little while around the one year anniversary but still was checking in. It is very comforting to know that I can come here and pour my heart out. I haven’t found anything that comes close to this in regards to healing and sorting things out. HG remains the one constant to provide me with the truth and reality.
            I hope your long story ended up well. Lol
            I can appreciate the peace these days.

          8. Yolo says:

            Thank you Jenna, I have no doubt of how of his effectiveness. I agree 45 minutes with a therapist and we leave with little or no knowledge about our condition. 160.00 to sit there and say shit.

          9. windstorm2 says:

            Wow! I have a really good therapist and it only costs me $25 for an hour! Doesn’t your all’s insurance cover therapy? And to think I rarely go see her because I thought that was high.

          10. jenna says:

            Windstorm, my therapists have ranged in cost frm $60 to $165. How much they charge depends on their credentials, their level and yrs of training, if they have overhead costs, eg. private practice, etc. I have tried the masters level therapist ($60) vs a very highly recommended (by the hospital) PhD ($165) and i frankly felt no difference. None of them knew i was dealing with a narc. None of them offered answers or insight. I wud recount an episide, and b4 i was thru, time wud b up. So i just wasted 45 min? I guess so. Here’s $165 for nothing. My insurance covers mental health partially but this therapist did not take insurance. I still chose her due to high recommendations. I thought she may be the key to my healing. Wrong! The only key to my healing is HG, his blog, books, consults, and u lovely pple!

          11. windstorm2 says:

            I guess I just lucked up then. My therapist has a degree and many years of experience. I saw once that she bills the insurance around $150. I just pay a $25 copay. I’d have never gone to one who doesn’t take insurance.

            She also has been married to a narc briefly – she figured him out and escaped, but it was really hard on her. Of course I’ve told her about HG and this blog. I think she’s definitely a super empath. Her personality and attitude complement mine. She’s fiery and full of energy where I’m cooler and laid back. We talk about her life and problems as well as mine. I often feel she gets as much out of my visits as I do.

            We agree on much, but we’re different enough that she gives me insights and suggestions I wouldn’t have thought of. She’s been really helpful and supportive, especially to help me think thru important decisions. Hearing you all talk about unhelpful, expensive therapists really makes me appreciate having such a good one. Maybe I should cough up another $25 and go back and tell her so. 😊

          12. NarcAngel says:


            $25? Do you meet her by a tree in the park?

            Hahaha just kidding, but I cant even get my teeth cleaned for that, much less the cobwebs in someones head.

          13. jenna says:

            Windstorm, i’m v happy you and your therapist are a great match!! It’s definitely not easy to find that!

          14. Yolo says:


            I found mine because he was highly recommend by a potential “normal” friend. The HMO “K” have the worse therapist and psychologist. They are into one size fits all mentality. If the DSM say ABC then you are EFG. Prescribe med, cognitive group therapy or a buffet of others in a group setting then you are healed. I thought i was codependent imagine how the first group session went. (Not my circus, not my monkeys)

            Of course, some online personality group every person who was involved with a sociopath a codependent.

            Our first meeting went fairly o.k. and i left feeling a little hopeful that some good would come of it. I remember my friend saying he will get you to realize that life is more than work and if you don’t absolutely love it quit. He’s the one who told me about narcissism. I remember telling him that I really dont like him but for some reason I keep allowing him back in my life. During our first meet he advised me not to start or continue personal relationships as it would hinder mu healing.

            Neither of us were used to job hoping. We both worked for the city department of human health services for almost 10 years and then our last employer over 10 years.(started young). 😊Both of us have worked for at least 3 employer over the past 3.5 years. Go figure.

            He shared a office with 2 others. He’s a psyd and only accepted cash. When my coverage was with BC PPO the same except group dynamic and the highest co-pay was 20.00.

            I struggle to focus which translates into my writing, I hope its not too confusing.

          15. windstorm2 says:

            Sounds like you have just not had good luck finding a supportive therapist. I could not do group therapy. I’m glad that was never suggested to me. I’d have just not even gone. It’s hard enough for me to speak in front of one person! No way I could endure a group. Especially if I were feeling fragile and vulnerable.

            I have had regular doctors that seem much like you describe- make quick decisions, cookie cutter approach and quick to medicate. I actually got “fired” from my last doctor. She said if I wasn’t going to do what she said, then there was no reason to come back! Lol! I just said, “Ok” but I thought, “woman, you are not God, I pay for your opinion, but I make the decisions in my life.”

            It was just the grace of God that I have the good therapist I have now. The very tolerant, wise and understanding nurse practitioner I see now (who just laughs when I don’t do what she says or take what she prescribes) didn’t know any therapists to recommend. So she just pulled up a list of them in another city and we went with the first woman on the list that had an opening! Ha, ha!! I have been very fortunate to find both of them – the nurse practitioner and the therapist.

          16. jenna says:

            Windstorm, you don’t prefer grp therapy? I absolutely love grp therapy! I find it v helpful to share my situation, fears, anxieties w others who r going thru the same.

          17. jenna says:

            Tell me abt it yolo! I just talk and talk, the therapist barely says anything except ‘i’m so sorry’ or ‘when wud u like to meet next?’ $165 down the drain. Not to mention driving time, etc. And i’ve tried four different therapists. None was better than the other. Oh, one ‘helped’ a little. She told me to take a walk daily to rid my mind of my ex narc – not that she knew he was a narc. I had to tell her. πŸ˜–
            I said ‘i don’t think that will help because i think of him at parties, while shopping, while running errands’ etc. She still assigned the walk as homework. I dropped her after that. After being on HG’s blog for just one day, i finally started the journey to feeling free. I read his books, asked him questions here, consulted with him, and i finally knew that it wasn’t my fault. I received the answers i needed. I was no longer confused. That is freedom! I don’t think about my ex narc much anymore these days. Hope it remains that way!!

          18. Yolo says:

            That’s great Jenna once we discern who and what they are eventually our thoughts become negative. Now I cringe at the thought also I don’t think of the positive or fun times anymore it wasn’t real. We will get there 😊

            Yes my therapist would pull out his calendar 30 minutes into sessions to go over next appt. lol.

            BTW, walking does help especially if you have earphones and music. It was a trigger for me because we would always walk and go hiking. I avoided one area for 6 months although he no longer lived in our community.

            Continued Healing

          19. jenna says:

            Thx yolo! Continued healing to u too! 🌷🌸🌷

          20. Yolo says:


            In the UK. We have several in the U.S. in our metro area I think they are using sex slaves smuggled in from over seas. Shut down most of the massage parlors. Now you walk in naked women with sushi on their body.

          21. Snow White says:

            Good for you Jenna!!!!!
            That is something that you should be proud of.
            It takes a lot of work and you have come a long way. It’s nice to seeπŸ˜€πŸ˜€
            I know how how frustrating going to a therapist and talking and talking can be. I do much of the educating in therapy. They should all have to read HG’s books before they can see patients.

          22. jenna says:

            Thx snow! And i do agree that they shud familiarize themselves w hg’s works b4 seeing patients!! πŸ˜€ Would save us the hassle of educating them!

      3. ava101 says:

        Jenna, the walks will help with your PTSD more, though. jmho

    4. Brian says:

      Youve seen it? or you are basing your observation on the fact that Steve Jobs is a greater narcissist and the character set fire to the computers because of ‘control’?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        That SJ was a greater.

        1. E. B. says:

          There is a film called ‘Pirates of Silicon Valley’ (1999) about Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. Steve Jobs was portrayed as a narcissist but not Bill Gates. Is Bill Gates a narcissist too?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            No he is not.

      2. Brian says:

        yes, those presentations he did with the black turtle neck sweaters, :_) his attitude toward children, persuasive abilities

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