Sex and the Narcissist

No holds barred and no strings attached

The only unnatural sex act is that which you cannot perform

Read about how the narcissist views and uses sex and how you are central in that

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112 thoughts on “Sex and the Narcissist

  1. Violetta says:

    Gave myself this for Christmas and just now made myself start reading it. I don’t know why I was so reluctant–as with all HG’s work (that I’ve encountered so far), the unpleasantness of the truth is outweighed by the sheer relief of knowing a) that I didn’t imagine something, and b) that it’s not just me. This explains more than one person I’ve faced, including a girl who stayed over at my house in 5th grade, wanted to play a game she called “Babysitter,” and lost interest as soon as she saw I wasn’t scared or disgusted. God only knows what had happened in her life.

    Later, in Jr high, she tried to get things going again, but I was into boys by that time. I even had a specific crush on a neighborhood guy (older) who had a black leather jacket and a motorcycle (I am such a cliche). Even in 5th grade, I didn’t like her as a person; I had “friends” just to get my social engineer teachers off my back. Now she got the reluctance she really wanted, she tried to blackmail me into it, but I decided I’d rather have my reputation trashed (it wasn’t great to begin with, so no great loss) than get cuddly with her. I even wondered what the hell was wrong with her: I was the weird kid who didn’t have partners for group projects, but I could damned well get partners for a little experimentation. Why couldn’t she find anyone willing?

    Well, maybe she could, but she didn’t want someone willing. I avoided her thereafter and waited for the blackmail, but it never happened. Possibly she was afraid other victims might come forward.

    As for Wanna-Be Playuh-Narc, I even suspected that he was walking away when he made his stupid hang-up calls, but I couldn’t imagine why he would do that when he could have banged me into next week. Unless he wasn’t attracted to me, but then why would he bother flirting with me when we worked together or making the hang-up calls for months afterwards? Wouldn’t he want to avoid a woman he found unattractive? Or why did a guy in his department tell me much later, “WBPN said you were kinda cute”?

    It all makes sense now. Why bother having sex with me when he was getting such juicy fuel without it? In addition, our Machiavellian Editor (who was probably a Greater triangulating us both) said he’d spoken to women who’d had relationships with WBPN, and “it wasn’t exactly earth-shaking.”

    If he had sex with me and I was physically disappointed, I might cut off my tasty fuel. (Actually, I might have been quite forgiving, but he wasn’t a Victim Narc who preferred this.) The girls he was having relationships with weren’t necessarily better-looking, but he got to coax them into it, which meant the decisions all appeared to be made by him. The fuel possibilities were endless as long as he could dangle an ideal (instead of an actual body part) in front of me. When I changed into date clothes after work to meet someone, he told Macchiavellian Editor, “I bet she has these really boring dates where nothing happens.” He was incredulous and even a bit indignant when he found out I was seeing another former co-worker: “She’s dating Monkey-Boy?!!

    I knew he was a Dog in the Manger. What I didn’t know was that he was a narcissist, and that unlike your ordinary Horn-Dawg, his goal wasn’t to get some poontang at any price, even if you have to pretend to love some dreary little bimbo you’ll dump almost before you’ve done the shake-and-zip. It was to get fuel at any price.

    1. Violetta says:

      *wanking away

      1. HG Tudor says:

        I prefer to do so at home.

        1. Violetta says:

          I think WBPN was doing it from his workplace. (Pity the cleaning lady.) His next job after we worked together was in California, he was working a late shift, and I got the calls at that time. The call schedule changed to earlier at one point, and I learned from Macchiavellian Editor that WBPN was visiting NY.

          OTOH, I once caught Macchiavellian Editor calling when he absentmindedly cleared his throat into the phone, so either he piled on when I told him I suspected WBPN, or it was MacchEd all along, in a case of Cyrano Stalking.

          Lucky me. I had rival Narcs fighting over who got to torture me most.

  2. Contagious says:

    I will revisit the sentence HG.

    In “ Putting a Sex in You” … Dr. E asked “ What if you lost your sexual potency?”…… HG, “ People like me won’t suffer that. God gave me a gift of sexual brilliance to further my purposes. He would not take it away.”

    So does this mean you are a believer in God and That He has a purpose for you even although you are a narcissist sociopath. Or were you just being proverbial in a sexual sex. “ Gods gift to women?”

    This is off topic a bit (wrench in tread) but I recalled vaguely your statements in another sex related article. I was curious.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Dr E believes in God. There I was using his belief system against him as I asserted control over him as a consequence of his Challenge Fuel to me.

  3. Violetta says:

    I bought this, but wanted to get through Sitting Target first, for basic knowledge. This is next. (I’m usually a fast reader, and HG’s prose style is both elegant and accessible, but something shuts down when some of this stuff hits a little too close to the mark. Wish I had the Tudoristas in my living room to trade reactions.)

    I do remember that the Mad Scotsman (who gradually got more controlling, disappeared for six months when I resisted it, then just happened to call on my birthday), had a foot-kissing routine. Since all those years of ballet and gymnastics gave me a solid wall of calluses, I wondered why he bothered. I couldn’t feel a damned thing. I only knew he was doing it because he had wandered down my legs and I opened my eyes.

    All makes sense now. It’s like the roses when my liking for violets was and is notorious. It isn’t specific for me or any other appliance: the appliance may change, but the routine does not.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes, it can be difficult to digest at times Violetta, however, it is worth persevering because as many have testified, SATN provides the Logic Jolt that is often needed to start the process of beating the narcissist and attaining freedom. Thank you for reading.

      1. Contagious says:

        Strange question but what about people who have rape fantasies. I recall being in a romance story bookstore and raised my eye at all these mature demure woman who read these books about these men who overtake a woman… it’s not my fantasy at all but there are perfectly nice people who have this fantasy…?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Many people have fantasies about things they would never actually do or have done to them. It is exciting, stimulating, arousing precisely because they can think it but do not have to actually experience it. It is both exciting yet safe.

        2. Renarde says:

          Contagious

          Whether I am nice or not is still under debate!

          What I can tell you is that it is an extremely common fantasy in women. But in reality, it’s how the act is framed.

          There is nothing inherently wrong in it but it isnt rape. It’s a form of role play actually.

          When real rape happens it’s entirely different.

          You are raising a very good point about a certain female group set. My point is, why does such bad literature exist?

          Well, its fulfilling a need. And it is bad literature. Again, its aimed at, dare I say, ‘certain kinds of women’ who have not experienced the full spectrum of their own sexuality. They are yearning for something which will always be a fantasy.

          I have a couple of stories about this kind of thing. I write very dark erotica. M&B it ain’t. But I did know a woman who was a virgin who was writing softcore. I’d always been amazed how someone can do this. I never read it so I cannot comment. But I highly suspect it is the fantasy version of sex. Not the reality.

          1. Violetta says:

            I think a lot of them grew up feeling guilty about their own desires, so they are more comfortable feeling it’s all Rhett Butler’s fault, or Howard Roark’s fault, or Sir Slash-a-Bodice’s fault. He’s always hot and it’s always orgasmic, but she’s not a slut because he made her do it.

            Nobody wants to read fantasies about Harvey Weinstein ripping anyone’s bodice.

          2. Renarde says:

            Violetta

            Sir Slash-a-Bodice’s

            Ha ha! Very well stated. All of it.

            I think you have hit the nail on the proverbial here. One of the things about society (which is thankfully is changing) is the repression of females sexuality.

            I wrote a piece on female ejaculation. I tried very hard to get hold of any kind of survey which shows how many females actually orgasm during PIV sex. I couldn’t find anything. If anyone can throw one up; I’d be very appreciative.

            However I did find the work of a Post Grad who was stating, very clearly, that if she wanted to research on female sexuality that she had to ‘frig’ the thrust of her research under a different title or she could not get funding.

            It’s only fairly recently (~10 years) that the clitoris as organ has been fully mapped using a MRI scanner as I’m sure you know.

            It is one of my greatest sources of pride that I have never read a M&B. I may put that on the bucket list actually.And review it. I guess it depends on how bored I am.

            Here’s a notion. Maybe it’s ONLY narcs that are confident enough to be Sir Slash-a-Lot? I cannot imagine a norm or an Empath attempting that with me but who knows?

            I think there are two factors going on with M&B. It could well be that they are, as I’ve said of a certain age and therefore have ‘fallen in’ wit society’s notion that nice women don’t desire sex. Entirely Victorian. Also, there could well be something going on with the mother-daughter bond. I know my mother tried very hard to do this with me. I’m sure my ‘Good Doctor’ will have a field day with this one.

            I have been raped twice but on both occasions there were other factors involved. Sleep or subspace. No one has ever tried to violently force themselves on me. I wonder why that might have been. I strongly suggest it’s because I would fight to the death.

            So those two people who did that to me, had to use ‘other’ things to subdue me. If that isn’t the mark of a coward then frankly, I don’t know what is.

            I cannot even conceive why M&B are still publishing. I expect that it won;t be long before they die.

          3. Violetta says:

            By M&B, do you mean Mills & Boone? They publish here as Harlequin, and their romances have traditionally been comparatively tame, though they’ve become somewhat more salacious in recent years, depending which imprint.

            The ones with the most sex-n-violence–often at the same time–were published by Avon and Warner, and had titles like Savage Sinful Love or The Diabolical Duke. They would recount “a passion that would sweep beautiful young Etherea and reckless rogue Vincenzo from the courts of England and France to the fleshpots of the Sultan’s palace,” blah blah, with plenty of bodice-ripping all the way.

            I gave up on them when I started to notice historical inaccuracies in the style of bodice being ripped or painfully modern phrases. Obviously, you can’t have your Norse hero walking around speaking Old Norse, but there are ways of using timeless prose with an occasional “Oddsfish, Madam!” if you’re writing Forever Amber or a few quotes from Blessed Julian of Norwich if you’re writing Katharine.

            There is NO excuse for your Norse hero to invite his passionate vixen to watch him practice combat skills with the words, “Would you like to watch me and Sven work out?”!!

          4. Renarde says:

            Violetta

            Ahh Harlequin. Heard of that publisher!

            I’m liking very much the Norse means passionate vixen! Less so watching Sven ‘work out’

            I loved the character of Buliwyf in the 13th Warrior.

          5. Contagious says:

            I highly enjoyed your responses Renarde and Violetta… Vos noms sont Francais! Je Pense. Alors, Merci!

          6. Renarde says:

            Contagious

            Jeux sans frontières!

          7. Violetta says:

            Contagious:

            Je joue avec les reconstituteurs de Moyen Age. Mon personnage est Italienne.

      2. Violetta says:

        I really have a problem distinguishing acceptable behavior from a Narc mimicking acceptable behavior. You’ve written about family and friends warning people against a Narc lover–what if they’re the narcs, and the lover’s warnings about them are accurate? The bookstore scenario in Sitting Target seems to me a great way to meet someone with common interests (except I’d probably express a wish to go out with Little Alex and his droogs and beat up random people).

        I’d certainly prefer it to the George Costanza guy (but without the nerdy charm) who handed me his card in the subway (after staring at me for 10 minutes while I discussed the latest delay with other riders), and said forcefully, “CALL me,” before exiting at his stop–just as his PUA coach had probably told him to do.

    2. NarcAngel says:

      As far as the books go, my opinion is that Fuel, Sitting Target, and Sex are the foundation to understanding the rest of the narcissist’s behaviours once you have done the Narc Detector to establish that you are indeed entangled or engaged with one. So many questions I see here repeatedly on the blog regarding intimacy could be answered by reading Sex (although many will still struggle and believe their situation to be the exception). It’s a slap in the face, but a much needed one if people truly want to break the addiction to the illusion. I suppose that’s why many put off reading it, but putting it off also tells one where they are in terms of wanting to get real with themselves and in getting out. Reading Sex should then be followed up with the Addiction series. The information is all here for those who truly want it to break free.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Well stated Narcangel. Now, where’s that testimonial?!

        1. NarcAngel says:

          HG
          How are testimonials submitted? To you by email?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Yes. Thanks in advance

        2. Lorelei says:

          Are testimonials needed for books on Amazon or here? I’m not sure what the reference for testimonials is requested for re, placement. I’m also not sure my academic prose would compliment your work in the way longer term readers may. I may better exemplify a review for —The Smurfs, on a cartoon based platform.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Testimonials/Reviews for the books can be written here in the comments with regard to the relevant book, Lorelei, however if you would write a review on Amazon that would be appreciated. Testimonials for products and services should be emailed to me for inclusion in the relevant testimonial slide show. Academic prose is just as welcome as non-academic as there are various audiences reading and interacting with my work.

      2. Ashley says:

        Going to read it tonight!!

      3. WokeAF says:

        I’d add Fury & Revenge
        (Revenge mainly bc of the Pillars of Narcissism- those helped me a LOT)

      4. Contagious says:

        Those 4 were the most powerful and educational but I find new facts or important nuances in all his books and material. With his prolific writing it amazes me the fresh material. Even if I was not dealing with a narc or two I would and have recommended him to others and ….interestingly, two of your choices are the ones I recommended on goodreads. And I got positive feedback.

  4. Pati says:

    I really give this book a 5 star! Thank you HG for explaining what goes through the Narcissist mind when sex is involved..

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Pati, it is a very important work.

      1. Pati says:

        It sure is HG, just like rhe rest of your work.

      2. strongerwendyme says:

        Not to mention the hours and hours of tedious research you had to endure… 😉

        1. HG Tudor says:

          What can I say, I am a slave to knowledge.

          1. WhoCares says:

            Hahaha!

          2. Violetta says:

            Some slave. Knowledge says you’ve been nothing but trouble and she’d love to sell you to a different Mistress, but she’s too scared of you.

  5. Ashley says:

    This is the book I need to read. I was wondering which other books I needed & this is the area I’m lacking knowledge in! Very helpful comments here. I did not know there is no sexual chemistry – I learned something already! haha I didn’t consider that there was nothing there chemistry wise even for sex. I always remembered my ex said something about previous girlfriend(s) didn’t like being treated like an object & asked if I minded. I thought he meant it with regard to looking good on his arm – I didn’t consider it was all-around! Just knowing there is nothing there makes lightbulbs go off for me, it makes sense to me now why he spoke about what he did.

  6. Why? says:

    Hg,

    Also, with rape, does a woman wearing a skirt make the narcissist want to rape her?

    We hear how women are blamed for what they wear sometimes. So, we don’t know the real truth.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, it does not.

      However, if you accuse a narcissist who has raped someone, of rape, you will be challenging the narcissist and threatening the narcissists unconscious sense of control. The narcissist´s self defence mechanism will reject this threat, it will reject the attempt to pin accountability on the narcissist. One way, as you know, this happens is to blame shift and therefore with lower echelon narcissists comes retorts such as “She asked for it.” “She brought it on herself dressing like a slut” “What did she expect wearing a skirt that is like a belt.”

      1. Why? says:

        Okay. Yeah, i expect that from lessers.

        But would a narcissist (i assume this would be midrange but idk if midrange narcissists commit rape) apologize to the person they raped, saying it is traumatizing, and then after being accused tell her the next day that they thought of her all day? I assume to preserve their facade, right?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          A narcissist may offer False Contrition.

          1. Why? says:

            Oh boy. Yeah, I’m sure some would …

            thank you, HG.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

      2. Renarde says:

        HG

        I’m sure you remember as I do some of the utterly gobsmacking comments from the Juiciary on rape cases in the eighties. Much as you’ve described.

        What would motivate a Judge at such a high profile trial to say such things?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You would need to be specific.

          1. Renarde says:

            HG

            Ok. So I’ve read descriptions of rape trials where in his summation, the judge finds against the Crown and excuses the rapists behaviour on the grounds that ‘Shes asked for it’s. Entirely due to what the woman was wearing.

            Letting the rapist off and presumably utterly destroying the victim.

            I just dont get why a Judge could be so biased in summation. And thus directing the Jury.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            1. The judge rules on the law, admissibility of evidence and provides a summing up.
            2. The jury convicts on the evidence or acquits.
            3. If there is a conviction, the judge sentences.

            The judge does not “let the rapist off”, the Crown fails to discharge its obligation to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt, if no conviction has been achieved that is a decision of the jury. The jury may be influenced by what the judge states in his summing up (although that is difficult to know because jury deliberations are private and not disclosed). If there is a misdirection, that may be a ground for appeal, in either direction.

            It is difficult to provide an accurate observation from what you have written.

            If the question is this “Why would a judge direct a jury to acquit on the basis of saying that the complainant consented to sexual intercourse with the accused because the way that she was dressed demonstrated “She asked for it (it being sexual intercourse) ” – that particular judge has an opinion that dressing in a particular way equates to the provision of consent. It does not strike me as a well-founded opinion. Why does he have that opinion? It might be that he is a narcissist, it might be that he has outmoded views of how women should dress, it might be that having heard the evidence in total he formed the view that she had consented and clumsily expressed that consent as having something to do with the way she dressed as if that was the sole factor. It is difficult to provide an accurate answer without knowing more about the individual concerned or the particular facts of the relevant case. What one can say is that the view expressed is not a well-formed one.

          3. Renarde says:

            Cheers HG for your long and detailed answer.

            You are correct, I have not been clear. I was thinking of headlines from way back.

            I’ve done a quick google but as this is historical, it will require some digging.

            Have you read ‘The Secret Barrister?’ It was an eye opener and a game changer for me.

            You know, I’m a product of the early nineties, I just NEVER would have imagined that we would ever live in the times we do now.

            But that’s a different story.

            On my google, I did find this.

            Shocking

            https://www.legalcheek.com/2020/01/high-court-slams-top-family-judge-for-not-knowing-what-consent-is/

          4. HG Tudor says:

            The example you have appended is not to be relied on and shows the danger of not going to the evidence. Always go to the evidence.

            I recommend you read the actual judgment and you will see that this demonstrates questionable selection by Justice Russell of the original judgment from Tolson. The headline is sensationalist and misrepresentative.

          5. Renarde says:

            HG

            That’s intresting. Thankyou for your clarification.

            How though would I go to the evidence? Is it something I could find on the internet or so I need to go somewhere else?

            I didnt think I could look this stuff up.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            In this case, Renarde, the evidence would be the actual judgment of Tolson and then the evidence of the appeal judge.

          7. Renarde says:

            Thanks HG. I find it frightening.

        2. Intrepid Traveller says:

          I remember that from the 80s. It was like a real sticking wall that women fought to get through, long forgotten now. But some of the judges summing ups were definitely very misogynistic and overloaded. there was an eventual backlash. Does make you wonder if narcissism was involved or maybe more the sexual sub culture of the time?

          1. Renarde says:

            IT

            I honestly dont know. I remember being profoundly shocked and worried. I also remember when the right to marital sex became unlawful. That one kept me up at night thinking about the woman that endured what she did and changed the law.

            So if some were Narcassitic, they are gaining fuel by utterly destroying the Survivour.

            But it’s still going on but not as explicit as it was. A Judge recently told a woman, ‘Do you know how to prevent rape? Keep your legs shut!’

            There has to be a complete overhaul of how rape is dealt with. In 2017, I reported the L who raped me. Went through the whole process, video interview- the works.

            I’ve never written about it because I dont want my personal experience to deter others. But from that youd probably guess what my position is.

            HGs writing largely does not bother me emotionally. I see and take its intellectualism for what it is. But two things did. Again ’17 when I found NS, I’d ignore anything about children. That was avoidance on my part.

            There was one article which stated, ‘funny how things happen in the night’

            That deeply triggered me. It’s true. With the UMS, that was happening all the time. Never happened with anyone else before or since.

            I actually think this might be THE most common form of rape and SA. So hard to prove. And largely men are just getting away with it.

            This thread is useful because it’s now showing me how deep the trauma goes.

            Indeed, only yesterday there was a grandstanding L in the shop. Making such a noise he was. Attracting attention. He turned to me, trying to draw me into the conversation. ‘Alright darlin’! When he got NO reaction, ‘Frosty there!’

            Frankly, I wanted to smash his head into the counter.

            All of this has not helped by MY ‘Good Doctor’ who implied the only reason some men want to me is because of how I look. Jesus Christ, to a rape Survivour. And he knew. Total lack of empathy.

      3. Why? says:

        Okay, thank you. So, this is the real story of how it is. I’m glad to know because of that stereotype and victim blaming.

      4. Contagious says:

        Want to hear a horror story? I started my career in criminal prosecution. Switched in one year as I found myself world weary exhausted by the subject matter. Go figure. But I was on a death penalty case ( which I am against and it involves a separate post trial sentencing of which I would not be a part of) of the rape and murder of a 14 year old girl. The defendant was a serial racist. He killed this 14 year old in a sadistic rage after raping her. The senior prosecutor actually discussed with the trial team putting me up front wearing a short skirt to provoke the rapist. True. Naturally I declined. I believed as a 23 year old in the system and that changed real quick at that moment. There is no conscience of a rapist but when societies or a system ( take the India bus case on Netflix btw) take the position or even ask the question “ what was she wearing? “ I see the crack in their N facade. Repulses me!

        1. Renarde says:

          Contagious

          That’s utterly disgusting.

  7. Why? says:

    Hg,

    With rape, when you yell at the narcissist “stop” and the narcissist keeps going and doesn’t stop,

    1. Is it because he is being challenged and keeps going to exert control, gain control over the victim, and gain fuel? Why doesn’t the narcissist stop?

    2. Is the resistance of the victim challenge fuel?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. The injunction for the narcissist to stop is a challenge to control. The narcissist must reject that challenge and assert control and thus continues.
      2. Yes.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Would it be true that Ns don’t have any real gauge on how wrong something is? Yes they may know it’s illegal as with rape. But they probably don’t even see it as rape they just wanted sex.

        For example a guy down my gym (one for Loreile because he’s incredibly hot!)

        Kept wanting to train with me. I trained with him a couple of times, on the third occasion he said he’d join me shortly. But he didn’t and he left. It was clear the next time I saw him that he was wanting me to ask what happened and why he left. I didn’t so he raised it. My response, that’s all cool but I don’t do second chances and I won’t ever train with you again (I’m super strict now lol) Of course I was flirty and friendly in my approach and each time he sees me he tries to convince me we should train together and I don’t like him etc. I maintain that I do like him but we won’t ever train together again.

        So when he is unable to convince me to train with him after several attempts over a period of a couple of weeks. He then just starts training next to me and doing whatever I’m doing????
        i joke with him that he is stalking me and I will take out an injuncton on him.

        I appreciate this is completely different to rape and I am not in any way at all attempting to compare the two. Rape is the most awful of violations which can ever happen to an individual.

        What would be helpful to understand is whether from the perspective of an N, they don’t see rape as any different to any other type of ‘in their head’ challenge, so like in the above example, training with you when you don’t want them to. To an N challenge fuel is challenge fuel and it is about being told no you can’t. It is not about what they’re being told no to?

        Would that be a fair assumption HG?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It depends on the particular school of narcissist, the relevant circumstances at the time and the constitution of the fuel matrix which then impacts upon the method by which the narcissist asserts control. If you obtain the 3 Assertions of Control, the 3 Interactions With the Narcissist and Finally Understanding Wounding that provides you with detailed information to understand the respond of different narcissists.

          It is not as simple as stating that raping someone is a method of asserting control like any other method. At a base level, rape is a FORM of assertion of control, like word salad is, like flattery is, like buying you flowers is, like denial is, like silent treatment is. At a more complex level, its use depends on the factors that I have mentioned above.

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            Thanks very much HG.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

        2. Renarde says:

          Alexis

          Your comment are very prescient. I am listening the the wireless as I am writing and Harvey has come up.

          He is now in a wheelchair as he was sentenced today. He gave a rambling speech – wte ‘He is confused. He did not do anything wrong. They are my beautiful friends’ etc.

          The female commentator said ‘I genuinely do not believe that he thought he had done something wrong’.

          I almost punched the air. My comment now marries with yours. It’s entirely possible that they DO NOT see that they have done anything wrong. Entirely. This then surely demonstrates just a partial grasp of cognitive empathy.

          This now dovetails into my own comments a day ago about women ‘asking for it’.

          Of course, this was wrapped up in that he was an ‘entitled rich man’. I think we can now remove the word ‘rich’.

          Be careful of that guy Alexis. He sounds like a cunt.

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            Thanks Renarde, that’s incredibly kind of you to say.
            I genuinely do believe that HW thinks he didn’t do anything wrong that he is the true victim here. Almost impossible to comprehend!
            INteresting the female commentator held the same view.
            I think there is some recognition when others do it, for example, HW would have thought Bill Cosby was a rapist etc. Just not recognise this in himself. I used to think they just had double standards but recognised right from wrong, like they knew what they were doing was wrong but that they just did it anyway. Now my feeling (since being education by HG) is that they do have an inkling that it is wrong but it 5% then the narcissism takes over and wipes out even that 5% altogether. so they are 100% convinced they’ve actually done nothing wrong. It was someone elses fault etc. the women for leading him on probably.

            Pantman is always so fucking moral, like he goes on and on telling stories of how he saved this woman or that woman from being sexually harassed whilst simultaneously comforting another woman who may be upset about something and attempting to touch her breasts at the same time. ‘There.. there..grope…grope’! But he sees what he does as perfectly acceptable yet others are inappropriate and ‘out of order’.

            Sorry I went off on one there. It made me smile that you punched the air

            And you’re so correct, they do believe women ‘ask for it’. Entitled man yup! they don’t have to be rich as we well know.

            Thanks re the warning for gym man. In this situation I actually do invite it on myself. I literally can’t help myself from playing games with them now. I just can’t stop at all. It’s become a way of life. Nothing sexual – just in case you’re worried. Just flirting. But I do it in a way that I don’t invite any real trouble on myself. I’ve always joked with him that he’s a player. He knows he is and likes it. although tries to convince me that he’s not! Oh god! its just too much fun!

          2. Renarde says:

            Alexis

            Hey, I’ve seen your many posts, I know you are a lady who can handle herself. Flirt away, I say. I have often done the same thing myself. It amuses me how they run around in circles, like a dog trying to endlessly catch their own tails.

            I think you’re point raises a larger question in terms of morality. Do these people know they are doing wrong?

            The MME I was with, stole a piece of equipment. High value. He kept on saying to me, ‘Is it wrong I’ve done this? Is it wrong?’

            ‘Yes. It is wrong but you did it and I do not care. Your bag’.

            He said this several times. Each time I replied with the same answer. I already knew he was as shonky as fuck so it was no surprise he did this.

            What did profoundly shock me was a frenemy (who has attempted a test hoover in the last week BTW), who ‘got in’ with a crim who was a professional thief.

            Her and I ran a coven together. I often felt her Moral Compass was wonky. She was always trying to steer the group down a left-hand path. .

            I naturally resisted. One day she popped out about this thief ‘Oh, if you are stealing things, get me a fur coat’

            That was incredible. What a thing to say!

            That comment has always stayed with me. Steal a fur coat.

            So you don’t care for animals and you think breaking and entering is A-OK?

            I think you do see slip-slides from the unaware all the time. With the ex-H I saw it. Not all the time but enough of the time. The problem with Empaths is that we look over it. Make excuses. As HG as delineated.

            HW is a cunt who has abused people all of his life. I note that he beat his brother once into a bloody pulp. Brother is quiet I think.

            If we recognise the red flags and stop making excuses for their behaviours then we might get somewhere as a society,

            Just a thought.

          3. alexissmith2016 says:

            Aww thanks Renarde,

            More stupid than handle myself I think hahhah

            You’re right though, I do enjoy how they run around in circles! It is rather amusing. Especially as they are entirely predictable. Except for his great self! I wouldn’t mess!

            It’s interesting what you say about MME. I do believe there is some recognition there when they have done something wrong. Lessers are certainly proud of the fact. Mids to an extent and depending what type. But I think that when push comes to shove and someone accuses them, their narcissim will kick in so strong that even if they previously recognised (like your MME) that he had done something wrong, if his back was against the wall his narcissim would internally justify it so that even he himself no longer believed he had done something wrong. That’s when the blameshifting begins. And why they are such brilliant liars.

            I’m ‘think typing’ here. But you hear of cases where some individuals have committed a very serious crime, rape or murder. Then they brag about it down the pub. They know it is wrong but want all the credit for it. Then when someone snitches on them that’s when their narcissim kicks in to the point where they either believe they were forced into acting because of what the victim had done or if others were involved, they genuinely start to believe that they were the innocent one forced to do it by other parties or that they didn’t even put their hands on the person and it was the others who did it. Even though they had previously bragged about it. IN summary I do beleve their is some recognition at first but when necessary the narcissim protects them and internally abdicates them of all responsibility no matter what other people think. That’s the point they can no longer recognise what they have done is wrong.

            Interesting re your friend having a wonky moral compass. That is a bit extreme in terms of no care for animals or others who are affected. But I do feel all of our moral compasses can go awry when it suits us -even empaths. I know mine can.

            I didn’t know about HW beating his brother. He sounds like an awful person. Sadly there are still very many of them out there. And whilst things have most definitely improved in the last 20 years or so. It still goes on, by and large, they know who to target, who will speak up, who will not. I would guess that most men have toned down their approach, you don’t see men in the office slapping a woman’s arse (thinking of Life on Mars here), they will still be sexually inappropriate but are less overt about it now.

            whilst there are Ns in the world (which I do recognise the need for) there will be sexual harassment it will just take a different form. They will adapt to what they can get away with undetected.

          4. Renarde says:

            Alexis

            I think you are making a lot of fine points. And intriguing ones. Also, the very concepts that you are delineating are the very ones I became incredibly confused at in the early days. Is awareness blackboard white or is it on a spectrum? I thought the latter and was rapidly disabused on that notion. Fair play.

            But when you have in my case, a MME saying that he didnt think he had empathy and that he knew he didnt love me and also said he didnt think he loved his kids…well…that does give your head a wobble.

            He absolutly is, as HG has said, a MME. HG has explained his reasoning and I agree.

            My friend was certainly interesting. I’ve often wondered about her. But in the end and coupled with a few more interesting stories, I percieve she is a narc. Moreover, I believe she is now running a very very awful scam. That she is dying of cancer. I dont think she is. Insurance thing I guess.

            I think you are right on that the culture change. I’m of an age where I was spanked on the bum, had my clothes adjusted, hugged. Been asked to sit on their knee. Oggled in front of an entire school. That my place was in the kitchen. All in the workplace mind!

            It will change but just transform. Into what, who knows?

          5. Contagious says:

            I will throw a wrench here. In sex, HG said God have him his gifts in bed discussion in therapy ( not direct quote) . HG does this mean you are a Believer in the Grand Design or were you just loosely answering their questions?

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Can you revisit the sentence, it does not make sense.

          7. Contagious says:

            …. “ In Putting A Sex On You”…. Dr E asked: “ HG, what if you lost your sexual potency?” HG replies, “ People like me won’t suffer that. God gave me the gift of sexual brilliance to further my purposes. He would not take it away from me. “ What I wrote above was just from memory and vague. I went back today. This is the exact quote. The “ wrench” is to the thread line as this “reply” on the topic off ‘sex’ is off the chain’s topic. But both articles address narcissism and sex. My question is …. HG, it appears based on your statements to Dr E in relation to sexual function and purpose that you believe in God and believe HE has a purpose for you. Quite a position for a narcissist sociopath. Or, ….was your reply to Dr E merely colloquial… ie Gods gift to women. I was indeed curious;) I hope this reply is clear.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Answered below.

          9. alexissmith2016 says:

            Its complex but I do believe there are far more mids out there who do have some idea as to what they are. My sister an UMR often makes little comments that she is/was sneaky. She recognises that she does not feel others pain. There are other little things which I cannot think of right now which she has said that make me believe she has some degree of awareness. She has no sadistic streak (thank god) so she’s not one of those pesky mids who believe they are a greater.
            Pantman knows. For sure he knows. He is a either a LMR or MMR. He would place himself as an elite. I would place him as cerebral because he is the most deluded person I have ever met re how he perceives himself to look! and he completely lacks any charm, although talks it textbook style. always advising other guys how to pick a woman. He couldn’t pick up a sheep!
            I could think of countless more mids I know of who certainly appear to have some awareness.
            I think there are many more schools/categories which HG will share at some stage and he has very helpfully kept it simple for us by limiting at this stage. The amount of knowledge he has is vast. He is very wise and knows not to overload us with more information than we can cope with. I am incredibly grateful I was here from near enough the beginning so I could soak it all up slowly.
            I think you may well be correct Renarde that a narcs awareness is on a spectrum. I’m sure HG will enlighten us further or correct me as necessary.

            Just my thoughts, but then I often have to google some of the words you write, so what do I know hahah

          10. Contagious says:

            I asked HG about the spectrum. I have seen awareness at times. Often like “ peeking.” He has told me “ mental illness is a real thing.” “Don’t you know I am aware my mother is abnormal and not like the others?” He apologizes often. Wishes I could forgive him for his selfish acts. He talks about it arising from “breakdowns. “” ( silent treatments. From photos he has sent he looks completely broken.) That he wants to be the man I need but he has these “inner stressors that cause him panic and breakdowns.“ He has sought some therapy but rejects it with me. But despite these comments. Usually it’s denial and blame avoidance. Rewrites the facts. He had been diagnosed with general anxiety and depression as a teen. He says he struggles with depression. He has said it hurts him to hurt me. And then there is the long golden periods, the compassion to animals, liberal outlook, lover of the arts, incredible lover, kind man to my kids…. but it’s when he is “not” aware or “ nice” it’s not at all “ good.” Why he is a MLE. But I agree he knows but … I think at times. But then defense mechanisms come.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            It is not awareness, it is continued manipulation. Your (understandable) lack of understanding about narcissism and also your emotional thinking makes you think it is awareness, so you are more likely to remain engaging, but you are being conned by your ET. He does not know what he is, he cannot provide you with awareness, these are instances of False Contrition and Pity Plays which are forms of manipulation commensurate with the type of narcisisst that he is.

          12. That must be so hard for you contagious to live with the constant torment of it all. I am on the outside which makes it far easier for me to sit back and appraise. I admire anyone who is able to have some clarity of thought whilst their ET must be sky high.

            I do hope you manage to separate in your thinking that he only does kind things to benefit himself and not because he is kind.

            his anxiety and depression diagnosis is likely mistaken. Through learning from HG they do not experience depression in the same way you or I would. They become restless and agitated when they are not in control.
            Please look after yourself. You, your children and pets are far more important than he is.

            Yes I think the lessers perhaps have some awareness that they don’t feel much but maybe not why.

            I don’t know what your exact story is or how long you have been here but I do sincerely hope you are developing a strategy towards NC. It does not matter about him and his happiness. He will be the same no matter who he is with. You have a chance to be happy without him. Big hugs and love. xx

          13. Contagious says:

            Alexissmith 2016 thank you for your kindness! I have been here and there for about 9 months. Active more since grounded as travel and events canceled and working at home when I can. My daughter is college bound, UCLA and my son is a boxer in the Marines. So just me and my Frenchie ‘Clouseau’ and My chi Betty Bowie. I am truly blessed with Faith, lots and lots and lots of love, friends and family and colleagues and clients I adore, nature, the beach, a good career. So although it’s been painful dealing with my husband of 6 years. He can’t harm me very much Due to my good fortune. I say to myself, I am grateful. Look at all you have got. Especially my health. If your only problem is a man, big deal! The love that surrounds me is the best shield. I have been separated 8 months. He is in UK. I am in California. The distance helps a lot too. I have learned so much through consults, tests, reading from HG. Saved me therapy money and has been invaluable. People like you help as we are not alone but in this;) For me, this relationship is like a dimmer. It has been growing less light the more I learn from HG and turn my focus to what I have not what I have lost. Until the switch goes off…. not quite there but almost. To be honest I like HG’s writings too. Very interesting. Thanks again and best wishes to you in all endeavors!

      2. Why? says:

        Wow! So, that’s it. That’s what happens when a narcissist doesn’t listen and rapes somebody. There is always talk about rape being about power and control and now I know why.

        Thank you for unveiling the truth, HG!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

  8. RtotheN says:

    Does a narcissist feel the same sexual chemistry with everyone? Also, if it’s so hard to give up control, how could a narc want to be tied up, told what to do and so on

    1. HG Tudor says:

      There is no sexual chemistry. There is the chemistry of addiction to control and fuel. You may be told that there is a sexual chemistry by the narcissist, that is a lie.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        HG
        Thank you for confirming there is no sexual chemistry with a narc (in a romantic sense). Many people state that and I find it confusing and misleading. The narc is performing to get their fuel needs met. The empath enjoys the act and projects feelings into it assuming that they are reciprocated. There may be compatibility in the types of activities but there is no chemistry as in the blending of feelings and intimacy. It’s wishful thinking but dangerous because it allows one to remain stuck thinking there is/was something deeper. They are masturbating with you and manipulating you, not blending with you to create chemistry. Your book Sex covers this and should be mandatory reading.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome and I agree with your observations, NA.

          1. Whitney says:

            HG, the God.
            “There is no sexual chemistry. There is the chemistry of addiction to control and fuel”.

            The Somatics seemed extremely attracted to me. Must be the control and fuel. The LMR loved to sniff me. He said he liked my pheromones.

            They must have some human instincts.

        2. Contagious says:

          But I must say … then why are they so damn good at it? Assuming mine is…

          1. K says:

            Contagious
            The need for fuel drives their behavior and that is why many narcissists are very, very good at sex.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Contagious
            They’re actors. Meryl Streep is excellent at portraying people that she is not as well (but with different intent of course). The level of success depends on how good one is at their craft. Not all narcissists are good at sex.

      2. kel2day says:

        Narcissists are humans with blood running through them and chemistry is a physical reaction, not an emotion. They have a physical pleasure from an orgasm, not an emotional one. Sexual chemistry is something. My boss would get an erection from me just walking into a room, it mortified and disgusted me and I thought it was so dumb. He would punch his penis to get it down. He honestly and not seductively said that he could always control himself, he almost lost it once when he had a lot to drink, but that with me, he could do it anytime. He’s gotten mad at me, blaming me that he’s gotten aroused, when I didn’t do anything or even think anything. I think we both hated it, but the physical chemistry was still there, even when the emotions weren’t. The phrase is surely used to seduce, but it does exist.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Surely he punched his Butch?

          1. kel2day says:

            Haha. But yuck I never named my bosses penis.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Yet.

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Kel2day

          Then our versions of chemistry differ. I see an erection as arousal and not an indication of chemistry. He could just as well get an erection at any number of women, a stripper, or from looking at porn. Jesus, do you work for Harvey Weinstein? Punching himself in the dick at work? That’s just a horny pig.

          1. kel2day says:

            NA, hmmm he is a horny somatic pig. But I wasn’t performing like as strippers or porns do, I was in an office dressed professionally with a bunch of other people. There’s somethin g that makes him react even when he doesn’t want to. If his narc brain was in his pants he wouldn’t. But yes isn’t it embarrassing punching himself, he would cup a hand over his fist to try to hide it as he walked off. Other times he would duck into a room, and even way back then before I wondered about narcissism, somehow I knew he was onanistic-ing himself. (word for the day 😊)

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Kel2day
            Please know that I was not inferring that you were acting/dressing inappropriately in any way. That does not even have to be present for a man to be aroused. In fact nothing has to be present but thought and/or opportunity.

          3. kel2day says:

            NA, I understood you were not implying that. I was just explaining what I meant about having chemistry and being aroused even when you don’t want to be. Of course you’re right, he’s a man, anything can turn them on.

        3. Witch says:

          I know this is an old comment.
          But it sounds like he was just trying to get fuel from you by telling you that he keeps getting erections when he sees you and he can’t help it (evading responsibility, blame shifting.)
          He was crossing a boundary at work in order to provoke you by either extracting positive fuel if you were flattered or negative fuel if you took it as sexual harassment.

          1. kel says:

            Witch, he wasn’t telling me he was getting an erection. He was getting them and having to deal with them, usually by dodging into the closest bathroom or storage room. I’ve known a lot of somatic’s in the sales world, they are hyper sexual. I don’t take credit for his erections, and sometimes he would be angry at me for causing him to feel that way even though I had nothing to do with it. Somatic’s are hyper, and they are over sexual, they live and breathe seduction and sex. I’m sure there are other women who have experienced the same.

          2. Witch says:

            Hi kel,
            In your previous comments it seemed like you were saying that narcs have regular human sexual instincts and used the behaviour of your boss as an example.
            In my opinion I believe his behaviour has little to do with natural sexual instincts but his dramatic reaction indicates to me he was being provocative in order to make you feel uncomfortable and get fuel from you.

        4. lisk says:

          Are you sure there’s not a Pity Play in there somewhere?

          Or should I say, a Pity-My-Poor-Penis Play?

          1. kel says:

            Lisk, we weren’t interacting with each other. Haven’t any of you women experienced hyper sexual somatic salesmen and others at the workplace? I’m not even in that business anymore, it’s too filled with egos and narcissism from both male and female. You know, I was doing a local online yard sale through FB and Spring cleaning, and posted some vintage gloves for sale, and I got messages from a guy interested who proceeded to ask for pictures of me wearing them, and when I didn’t reply back, he would say I’m not interested anymore, and Stop bothering me (?), and Please, and on and on, so I blocked him and I changed my FB profile picture so it wasn’t a pic of me. I’m 58 years old, I’m a grandmother, I don’t know what it is with these narcs, but they’ve been that way since I was a little girl- from stories I’ve been told. I know I’m not the only woman who’s experienced this. Gosh I see narcs plain as day now, I see all the women flocking to them, it’s amazing. I’m a natural repellent to them now because I don’t respond favorably anymore because I’m respectfully kind to them now, but I’m not overly sweet anymore and I’m not seducible

          2. Contagious says:

            Yes;)

      3. Contagious says:

        HG I always felt there was a compulsion too. Fuel, control but often it seems something more. ?

  9. Kat says:

    Happy Christmas and thank you for the site mr.Tudor! This might be an unusual question but do you have any thought on why a narcissist can be obsessed with some sexual masochistic fantasies? This is quite confusing because in other situations he would go mad over any slightest attempt to press on him. The only information I have found is an article about “narcissistic-masochistic character”. I would be glad to get answers and opinions from anyone who has something to say.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Kat,

      This will be because it is a method of exerting control and gaining fuel. I recommend you read my book ‘Sex and the Narcissist’ which will describe this and much more in greater detail for you.

  10. Any says:

    HG I caught the narc steering at my lips and quickly looking away when I looked at him, if you don’t like intermacy why so sexual?
    Also would narc rather wife a virgin appliance or a none which one over the other if both are good supplies.
    Would a narc stick around if you will not be sexual with him until after marriage?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. To make you react to provide fuel.
      2. I do not understand the question.
      3. It is possible if you are dealing with a Victim Narcissist (sex is less of a matter for them) a Cerebral (same but for different reasons) or you have significant advantages to provide to the narcissist and you are bound to him and providing fuel without full sexual intercourse being necessary.

      1. Arisa says:

        He is a greater elite narc, has the cerebral and somatic nature. He is hyper sexual. But pretends to be decent to me as he is mirroring me as i am a virgin but considered very attractive lookswise. Im surprised a narc of this kind is okay with nothing sexual until marriage!? He has agreed to wait (not that i plan to marry him)
        He only holds my hand and give good bye hugs. Do elite prefer attractive virgin appliance over non virgin attractive appliance. It seems getting a virgin is really important to him or one that looks respectable in other eyes.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The issue of virginity is relevant in that :-

          1. It denotes honesty an decency, a strong moral compass – empathic traits which matter to us;
          2. It promises particular fuel when you are deflowered; and
          3. It is a residual benefit – “I was the one who took her virginity” thus I am superior to all the other potential suitors.

  11. Suzie says:

    I find that picture offensive. However, it sure is a wake up call into the mind of a narcissist. I don’t wonder why I got ensnared. I just wonder why I kept going back for 5 years until it got so bad that I lost any feelings that I had for him.

  12. K says:

    Sex and The Narcissist was incredible and I am still trying to wrap my head around the words and the horror. This book made the last vestiges of the golden period disappear into thin air. I was stunned by what I read and I need to read it again to give it a proper review, however, this book is a must-read for everyone here on this blog.

  13. angela says:

    please ..more spanish books

  14. angela says:

    at the begining of sex..it was nice cause we were thinking we love each other…in my case.
    later…sex was like porno film..at the last time i hated sex with this man..even i sow his dark eyes like evil…its cost me..but i escaped..and now 5 months later i feel i born again…of course i still with him i my mind many times a day..but not like before..now i know who and what he is..by by love…ha ha at list free of you..

    1. Renarde says:

      Angela

      Well done you. I hope you are healing.

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