The Narcissistic Truths – No. 148


220 thoughts on “The Narcissistic Truths – No. 148

  1. NarcAngel says:

    Tappan Zee

    You made me laugh.
    Bloated ticks is a perfect analogy. Especially since they cause Lyme disease which is described as having symptoms that appear gradually over time, are incredibly varied, and wax and wane. It can go undiagnosed because so many people (Doctors as well as the victim) dismiss the symptoms as something else. To add to my amusement, many people are apparently infected by nymph ticks and they dont remember when (if at all) they were bitten.

  2. Tappan Zee says:

    Jenna’s post that spelled out texts seems like he is god. I would never capitalize that for him. It doesn’t make sense. Which makes total sense. He is god. You are not. He decides who goes to heaven or hell. You do not. And you’re pathetic for putting forth ideas which are far inferior to his re: heaven & hell concepts. It’s mind fuckery. And it’s pathetic. Not you. Do you think you can tell heaven from hell? Blue skies from pain. I digress. Love PF, your narc? Uh. No. Backup, that narc. He is not “yours”! The snatch to us like velcro. They are the hook side. We are the fuzzy. But they can fall off like bloated ticks. And are not us, are not ours and blech now I am rambling. Helps to read this shit. Ah.

  3. Susan says:

    My ex narc seemed to only want a relationship. Didn’t stray but all the other behaviors werevin line with NPD

    1. HG Tudor says:

      As far as you knew.

      1. Tappan Zee says:

        Is this a common theme?
        1. We think “ours” r greater
        2. We think we r super e’s
        3. We think they don’t cheat
        4. We think we will catch N

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It is a fairly common theme. What do you mean by number 4 TZ, do you mean catch the narcissist out, catch him or her doing something wrong or actually ‘catch narcissism’?

    2. ajo says:

      My ex husband was the same way. I think he could have potentially cheated if the circumstance presented itself, but he didn’t seek it. He sought fuel from others in other ways. Not just woman. Which I believe he may have some bisexual stuff because he loved getting approval of men.

  4. NarcAngel says:


    EB has given you very good advice and in a kinder way than I ever could. Please consider her words and those that HG has repeatedly offered you. No one here wants to hurt you-we are all pulling for you and want him to stop hurting you by being deceitful and taking advantage of your time and your good heart.

  5. Mona says:

    Now it is pretty clear. I saw my first comment again, which is still in moderation. We have a different concept of shame. Perhaps that was not in your awareness that the word “shame” could have another meaning for you than for me and others. This is evidence for me enough, that there is a different concept. Words have another meaning for me than for you. How complicated!!!!
    That remembers me of Robert Hare who said , that psychopath know the words but not their melody.

  6. Mona says:

    HG, are you sure, that there is shame? Are you really sure, that your kind does feel shame? What kind of shame is meant? The shame to be abused, the shame to fail, the shame not to be perfect, the shame to be selfish? The shame, that there is no stable personality? What kind of shame?
    I do not think, that empath and narcissist talk about the same thing, if the word “shame” is mentioned
    Are you sure that there is a concept of shame behind all that strange behaviour?
    I ask, because I cannot see, that there was any kind of abuse or bad treatment for my mother in her past. All I can see is a hard childhood, influenced by second world war. My grandmother has been depressed while war, but she did not treat her daughter mean.
    Are you really sure, that shame is one of the reasons that influence the behaviour of you kind?
    Or is that only another kind of illusion and asking for pity?

  7. Susan says:

    Thank you. Somehow he started with a girlfriend 30?years younger. I reacted to his Facebook photo asked a question or two and bam the door opened a crack. Now I feel I’m in full throws of the addiction again with anxiety. Feel like I miss him so much it feels like I’m dying. Now this about borderline. I can’t wait till HG gets back to me. I asked him when he has an email session avail. I’m ready. I feel it’s an emergency. I need help. Thanks so much.

  8. Mona says:

    HG and all of the others, what does “shame” mean for you? Are we all talking about the same thing? I think, we need a definition of “shame”. It might be interesting. I am not sure, if we are talking about the same.

  9. susan says:

    Hello HG. I’ve written here before. I’ve been broken up with my Narcissist for 5 months now. He wants me to go to counselling with Dr David Hawkins. on skype. Did you ever hear of him. I originally found his youtube. He believes he can cure the Narcissist. They have to hit rock bottom and he calls it an intervention. You have to have weekly sessions and maybe fly to his center in Seattle for an intensive. He calls a Narc on all their behaviors and doesn’t let up until they are accountable. Like I said I originally found the therapy before we broke up we went to 2 sessions but my narc became Mr Hyde. agitated etc. It took the whole session for Dr Hawkins to calm him down but he did call him on his behavior. I then decided I don’t want to go thru with it that my Narc would just modify his behavior not really change and we would have to go to Dr Hawkins the rest of our lives and I would always be on watch for Mr hyde to appear. So I broke up. My Narc is texting me that he wants to go to Hawkins with me that he wants to change but that I have to commit to the process too and be willing to look at my stuff. I want to know what you think of this. I do miss the good times and the loneliness is hard.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I have not heard of him. I would recommend you read the article But I Can Change.

      1. Susan says:

        Now my ex is telling me his personal therapist who I went with him to about 10 times has told him I’m a borderline personality disorder. He wants me to go to counseling for my problem and he’s admitting to some narcissistic traits. I read up on borderline and I don’t have any of those traits plus checked with a therapist that knows me. My ex narcissist is saying we always work on his issues. It’s never me. And s relationship is two to tango. I said I don’t do many hurtful or damaging things you never bring anything up.
        I think he’s playing emotional chest. In the meantime he has a 25-30 year old girlfriend 30?years younger than him. Yet he’s making a huge effort to shame me into going back. Then charm

        I’m lonely and he knows that. But not lonely enough to deal with this any more of my life

      2. Susan says:

        I can’t find but I can change on your website. I have read every one of your books

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you for reading.

      1. Susan says:

        Thanks. Amazing. My ex narc sent me a letter that his therapist believes I’m borderline. I have no major traits of a borderline. He’s claiming to love me so much and wants to stand by me while I get help for this alleged problem. He admits now to having narcissistic traits and has been improving but still will work on these in therapy with me. He says he’s improved a lot but during a vacation abroad went into his aggitated alter personality for 3 days where he was angry punishing distancing etc on vacation. Went in to denial at therapist saying he didn’t remember. That’s why I ended it this time. Yet he claims he’s so much better.
        Another thing he always brings up is why are we always focusing on his the narcs issues. He says he’s always wearing the black hat and in a relationship It takes two to tango. He asks Why don’t I step up to take responsibility for my issues. I agree in principle that it takes two. But it’s him that does all the damaging behaviors and has the aggitated My Hyde episodes. I don’t do anything muchvto him but I am s little critical at times. I’d love to hear some comments on this from the group and HG. And I’m going to contact you HG for a consultation because this lady Hoover attempt and borderline accusations has me all shook up and my resolve is weakening. I’m hanging on by a thread

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I shall await your booking.

        2. Windstorm2 says:


          Other than the therapist part, your comment sounds a lot like the type of bullshit I put up with from my exhusband when I was trying to live with him and right after I left him. Personally I don’t think there is anything you can say or do to maintain an intimate relationship with one once it’s gotten to that point. He will just continue to gaslight, deflect, project. I think by that point the only thing they really want is to control you, prove to themselves that they are superior and pull out negative fuel. For me it was dangerous to my health – physical and mental – with zero benefits for me.

          What I did that worked for me was move to another county and separate myself from him as much as possible. When I did have to interact with him, I tried to totally detach, be unemotional and look at him like some type of crazy lab rat I was observing. He was very uncomfortable with that approach, quit ranting and pulled back, but it did take several years before we were both healed enough to not get on each other’s nerves whenever we were together.

        3. K says:

          Hello Susan
          My ex told me I was bi-polar, needed meds, a padded room and therapy for my issues. He blamed me for everything. There is NO changing them and nothing is your fault. Have that consult with HG asap and you will start feeling better right away and stay on this site and keep reading. This is the best place to be, if you want to recover from NPD abuse.

          1. jenna says:

            Well said K! This is the best place to be so pls stay SUSAN and welcome💐
            You will find all the answers right here.
            Btw, i think he is blame shifting so the focus will not be on him.

            K, “a padded room”? Ewww some of the stuff they say 😖

      2. jenna says:

        K, how considerate of u to post the link, to ease her search!💗

        1. K says:

          Thank you, jenna!
          Sometimes when we are going through tough times, it can be very confusing and if someone else reaches out and helps, it makes you feel less lonely. There was no help for me anywhere until I came here, and now I have you and everyone on this blog and that is a nice feeling.

    2. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


      There is no cure for narcissism. I’m going to look into this guy – this sounds like a scam. I don’t trust it.

      1. Susan says:

        Many youtubes but there’s 2 Dr David Hawkins. Add the word narcissist. Please tell me your thoughts on him. I believe he holds the narc accountable but they learn how to manage. No real change

  10. Diva says:

    I find having no shame is a real benefit in life!!!………Diva

  11. ajo says:

    Ever heard of Brene Brown? She’s like the Shame expert. She’s studied it for years and has written loads of books on the subject.

    The ex midrange narc used to quote her. He was all about his “shame”. Never did a thing to overcome it. She’s big on vulnerability too. He sent me her TED talk when we were first dating. What narc tells another woman he is looking to share vulnerability? I very good narc…

    My ex husband loved the word as well. He used it as an excuse for everything wrong he ever did. No accountability. No actual repentance.

  12. Merripen says:

    Hmmm… is your accent more west, northwest?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is from various places, some outside of the UK.

  13. Flickatina says:

    So I have been re-watching Dr Who recently and last night I watched the episode entitled The Doctor’s Wife…I can confirm that HG is actually actor Michael Sheen – otherwise known as the voice of The House in that episode…… 🙂 🙂

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Ha ha but I am not from Port Talbot.

  14. Mona says:

    I forgot to mention that I adore this woman for her courage to talk, write and think about her past in public. She is no victim of her own shame anymore. She speaks it out and points on her tormentors. She convinced a lot of people to believe her. I am proud on her. And I really hope that she can heal her soul a little bit more. She is on her way.

  15. Mona says:

    Shame of the narcissist. I have to admit it does not interest me anymore.

    I do not know why but at the moment I meet so many victims. This weekend the last one. She had written a book about her childhood. She had been terribly sexually abused by her own father for years and from very early on. Mother looked away as usual. She spent so much time in different therapies for years and even I have to call her crazy. Her soul did not survive, because she was the victim of a soulkiller. Even her son is a victim, because he has a mother who is often ill, insane and absent.

    She asked me to tell her what I do think about her book. I will tell her my truth: that I believe her about her past (not everything) but that I do not think, that “Satan” is on earth. She will be disappointed. I do not believe in God nor I do believe in Satan.
    I believe that there are real bad people in the world without conscience who avoid any responsibility.

    She still thinks her mother loved her. I will not take that belief away.
    It is too hard for her to see the whole truth.

    Her father did not look at her at his last minutes. She thinks it was only because he did not love her. I think that might be right and it was his shame too. He could not look into the mirror of his crimes.

    The shame of a narcissist does not interest me anymore.

  16. sarabella says:

    After the one and only consumation of our relationship after a benign meal of pizza and laughing, narc curled up I’m a ball that looked just like that picture. He went into another personality. And then flipped out of it shortly after into a laughing, joking offensive freak. I haven’t been that terrified in my life in a long time to witness that change.

  17. gabbanzobean says:

    Do narcs actually feel shame? I thought they felt nothing. My mid range used to tell me that he felt shame all the time (but I figured this was just for attention…”fuel”…). He said his “shame” manifested itself in lethargy and depression and withdrawing himself. Wouldn’t the fuel top-off override such a feeling of shame? And on a sexual note, he said that his shame made it take longer for him to sexually climax. Except for with me. (insert eye roll emoji here as I am typing on a desktop computer keyboard)

    1. K says:

      They have many negative emotions and shame is one of them. They feel hatred, anger, fury, envy, jealousy, and antipathy to name a few. My MMRN felt shame.

      1. Windstorm2 says:

        They do all feel shame and they really fear it.

  18. E. B. says:

    Shame was my narcissistic parents’ biggest weakness. People who have been raised by at least one narcissistic individual (parent, grandparent, aunt) will definitely experience shame, no matter if he became a narcissist or not. It started when we were very young and totally dependent on the narcissist. Children are convinced that they are the source of all problems. Narcissists treat their children as if they were inherently defective, unlovable, worthless, undeserving, as if they did not exist or, at best, not good enough. Healthy parents do not do that.
    This shame does not belong to us, Acons, but to the narcissist parent who projected it onto us to get rid of their own uncomfortable feelings. They say that if we take this shame, we are siding with the narcissist and against ourselves and that the narcissist is still controlling us.
    In my opinion, overcoming shame is the hardest part of all because it is deeply ingrained in us from a young age. I have been able to get rid of feelings of obligation and guilt but not of shame.

    1. Jenna says:


      “Narcissists treat their children as if they were inherently defective, unlovable, worthless, undeserving, as if they did not exist or, at best, not good enough.”

      Reading this i felt a stab in my heart. I think of my ex mid-ranger, who was sexually abused as a child, by a male.
      My ex is wandering aimlessly here and there, trying to live this life as best he can. He finds happiness nowhere. He was in my state, then moved to another state. He is again moving, searching for peace somewhere in this world.
      His arrogance is returning, as he applied deflection and blame shifting towards me on sunday, but i just ignore it. Thanks to hg, i know where it is coming frm, and i try not to let it bother me. Actually, it did bother me but i kept silent.

      1. E. B. says:

        Hi Jenna,

        I can understand how you felt. When there are feelings involved, it does bother us, even if we know they are narcissists and will not change. This is because we see people, not objects. We may still feel compassion for them, depending on what kind of relationship we had in the past.

        1. Jenna says:

          True EB.

          I consider myself fortunate that i have not suffered so much at the hands of my narc. To me, it felt like suffering at the time because i am highly sensitive. In retrospect, I realize he did not use physical violence, triangulated w words only once in 3.5 yrs, did not gaslight, was not malignant, never name called, did not extract negative fuel frm me except for one time. When face to face, he was kind, engaged, and affectionate 90% of the time. During texting however, he was often quiet.

          His abuse consisted of future faking, pulling hot and cold, secrecy, silences. When i would ask abt it, he would deflect, lie, blame shift, or withdraw. When i finally explained to him that the future faking hurts me, he stopped it. He also was quick to criticize if he felt i was being critical, eg.when i called him a coward. This happened only a few times though.
          Much after we broke up i found his profile on casual sex websites which hurt me v much. I felt i didn’t know the person who i was involved with. He used to say he loves me. We are friends now and he finally admitted that he betrayed my trust.

          However, when i read about the torture others have gone thru in comparison, it truly breaks my heart.

          1. gabbanzobean says:

            Again I wonder if we have the same narc. Your description is so eerily similar to how mine is. I too also found his profile on casual sex and hook up websites. All I can think to myself is…WTF? You push me away someone who actually loves you and wants to be with you, but yet you have no problem hooking up with strangers for sex. I know HG has said that it’s all about the fuel, and that sex can cause the addiction to fuel. But I still wonder if mine is a sex addict too. It seems that’s all he likes to do at times.

          2. jenna says:

            Gabs, it’s almost a given when entangled w a narc. When i asked him abt it, he said ‘i thought i could do anything but i was wrong.’ Well, at least he admitted he was wrong, though he might not mean it.
            It is the intimacy they fear. Having sex w strangers requires no intimacy, so they are comfortable. He admitted to me several months ago, because i kept asking him, that when he would be physically close to me, he would feel anxiety.
            Yet i wonder if he did the same sexual acts with the strangers as he did with me? Did he use the same moves, the same gentle kisses, the same caressing of the skin first, the playing w the hair? If he did, i’ll kill him! Lol jk. I’m past that stage i guess. Maybe not. Idk.

          3. gabbanzobean says:

            Really? They feel anxiety of being intimate? Mine did a great job faking it then. Or maybe to him it was just the mechanics of having sex? I had the gentle kissing and the skin touching too. The way he touched my face with his fingers and hands. And yes the hair too. Again I reiterate….they really copy this shit from a narc textbook don’t they?

            I know mine was also into porn which is where he had kinky suggestions from (which I obliged him with). I only knew that because I said “where did you ever get the idea to do XYZ?” and he then mentioned his porn. I then said “I do not get the big deal about porn. I mean to each their own but I think of porn and I think ‘oh other people having sex? who cares?’….” And he said “if you were as lonely as me, you would understand….” I figured lonely because he said he was in an empty marriage (this was before I found this blog).

            I found the sex site profiles later when I was googling his screen names out of boredom (and thinking of him/missing him)…

            Hey I was meaning to ask you if you read my other reply over in the “Prey” thread? Mr Piano Man at Church and I had an interesting text exchange the other day which I posted about.

          4. jenna says:

            Gabs, r u talking abt this?

            Your post:

            “I texted ‘I feel like you are a ghost’. He replied with ‘I am sorry that you are hurt. I do not mean to hurt you. I AM a ghost.'”

            Yes i read this. I feel he was simply mirroring ur words.
            And omg my ex said the SAME thing – “i don’t want to hurt u. I never wanted to hurt u.” 🤦🏻‍♀️
            This is becoming almost comical now!

            Last yr, my ex’s mask dropped and he texted ‘i am tired of apologizing to u.’
            I replied ‘well some of ur apologies r actually misplaced and unecessary so i don’t need any more apologies frm u.’
            It’s as though he didn’t know when to apologize, so he would apologize for almost everything, post hoover. 🤦🏻‍♀️

            Your post:
            “‘I thought you said no more of that and we were going to behave’. And then silence.”

            Yes, exactly. He did the same. Anything uncomfortable would be met w silence. This is why i call him a cowardly mid-ranger!

          5. gabbanzobean says:

            Oh I was not talking about the ghost thing or the “we are never having sex and must behave” thing…this was my newest and most recent convo (over text) which happened after he was done silenting me. I went back to find my post to you because I posted it in another comment thread and I see it is still in moderation and did not get put through yet, which is why you did not see it. So I will re-summarize it here in hopes you’ll see it soon.

            Earlier this week we were texting and I discussed his ghostliness and how it hurt my feelings. Last time he gave me a half-assed apology and it was forgotten but this time after he ghosted me again and I told him how it hurts, he had some different things to say. Here are some of the things he said to me (over text):

            “Darling girl, the more you reach out to me the less likely I am going to reply expeditiously” (yes he said the word “expeditiously” and yes he refers to me, (and everyone) as “darling”)

            “You definitely want to talk to me way more than I want to talk to you, although when we do talk I usually enjoy it” (usually? WTF?)

            “Moderation is a necessity with you. The more I talk to you the more you crave it more and more. It is a repetitive cyclical series that begins and ends as predictably as the sun rises and sets. You should not be trying this hard for me, especially when I am not trying hard for you.” (ouch)

            “The way you feel about me is disproportionate to the way I feel about you” (yes he used the word “disproportionate”)

            “You should take my silence as a reminder of the boundaries we need to set in our relationship. I know that by indulging in sexual talk that it sends very mixed signals but that is because my resolve is low and my willpower is weak” (I KNEW HE WAS GOING TO RESSURRECT THAT ONE!)

            “I am weak sometimes and will indulge in our sexual attraction. But it is wrong of me.”

            “I have no desire of being anything more than a friend to you. Despite my weakness in the sexuality department. But emotionally, you are in pure detail and defiance of these limitations.” (am I to interpret that as he just wants to F me on his terms? LOL.)

            Does your Narc say similar crap as well? I am very curious to hear your thoughts.

          6. Windstorm2 says:

            Mine have never said things like that, but they have often refused me anything that they know I really want. Midrangers especially. I think they do this just to demonstrate that they are in control, not us. And that they will not dance to our tune. I’m to the point that it just irritates me and i think things like, “You sorry SOB, you’re not the boss of me. Go F ur self.” And then I cut them off. If they’re smart enough to figure out I won’t be played, I’ll give out positive fuel till the cows come home. If not, they’re just not worth my time. I think he’s just manipulating you for his own amusement.

          7. jenna says:


            Reading this actually hurt my chest. Talk abt ouch!

            You wish to know if my ex said anything similar, so for each quote i will write how he responded to a comparable situation.

            Mr. Piano:
            “Darling girl, the more you reach out to me the less likely I am going to reply expeditiously.”

            My ex did not say something similar. Rather, he put on a v good facade, and would say ‘u can text me anytime u want.’ He would reply to my texts quite promptly. However, 70% of the time i would initiate the texts, and that bothered me. Post escape, hoover, and re-establishment of the relationship as friends, i initiate the texts 5% of the time.

            Mr. Piano recital:
            “You definitely want to talk to me way more than I want to talk to you, although when we do talk I usually enjoy it”

            “Moderation is a necessity with you. The more I talk to you the more you crave it more and more. It is a repetitive cyclical series that begins and ends as predictably as the sun rises and sets. You should not be trying this hard for me, especially when I am not trying hard for you.”

            My ex did not say this so overtly, but showed it through future faking by cancelling many times a few hrs or a day in advance. At first i used to stay silent because i was on the wrong youtube channel, which said not to show that u r needy. Several months later, i decided that i will not play these games and that it is better to be honest. So i told him that it hurts me and i get a panic attack when he does this.
            He told me in that case it is better not to make plans in advance because it is difficult for him to predict what he will be doing on a certain day, since he has roomates who may suddenly ask him for a ride and he can’t say no to them. Also, an assignment might come up that he has to work on. The disadvantage of his solution – i didn’t get to see him more often. The advantage of his solution – i didn’t suffer any more panic attacks due to him cancelling.

            Mr. Piano recital:
            “The way you feel about me is disproportionate to the way I feel about you.”

            My ex did not say this so overtly either. However, he did change his expression of love for me over the course of 2.5 yrs. First, he used to say that he loves me more than i love him. A yr later, he changed it to ‘i love u more than anyone in this world platonically’ even though we had just made out (no sex) a few days prior. Another yr later, he changed it again to “just have fun” when i told him that i love him. Soon after that, i escaped him, even b4 finding out abt the casual sex websites.

            Mr. Piano recital:
            “You should take my silence as a reminder of the boundaries we need to set in our relationship. I know that by indulging in sexual talk that it sends very mixed signals but that is because my resolve is low and my willpower is weak”

            When i asked my ex abt his silences, he said ‘u made me angry with ur arguments so i didn’t feel like talking, but i am calling u now. Just throw everything i said the other day out the window. I do not want to lose u, else why would i be begging u now?’

            Mr. Piano recital:
            “I am weak sometimes and will indulge in our sexual attraction. But it is wrong of me.”

            My ex would say ‘pre-marital sex is a sin and we should not be doing this, but i cannot even control myself. I will go to hell.’
            I would reply ‘if it’s true love, god will see that.’

            Mr. Piano recital:
            “I have no desire of being anything more than a friend to you. Despite my weakness in the sexuality department. But emotionally, you are in pure denial and defiance of these limitations.”

            When i asked my ex if he ever loved me, he would give different answers every time. A few come to mind: 1)”i thought i loved u but then we sinned”, 2)’u r my favorite person in the world and i have a soft spot for u’, 3)’love is unconditional. It does not require sex nor being married. We should not have had sex.’

            Gabs, i feel mr. Piano recital is overtly devaluing you. If my ex ever said anything confusing like this while we were in the relationship, i would question him and argue until he became frustrated and withdrew. This is what i said to my ex when he changed his expressions of love towards me: ‘U kissed me first. U told me u loved me. Now u say something different. U r a player. I wish i knew this abt u b4 i gave myself to u. I would have been more careful. But now it is too late. I am attached to u and it is hard for me to just forget abt it. When u face god, u will know how much u hurt me.’
            His reply: ‘i never wanted to hurt u’

            I was VERY angry w him. Finally, after finding out abt his sexual abuse and reading abt narcissism, my anger was gradually replaced by sympathy. But i still would not go back to him. Now, i want to help him discover why he behaves the way he does and why he feels the way he does (envy, fury, no positive emotions etc.)

            If i were u, i would dump this guy. He is not worthy of being with, for an intimate relationship.

          8. E. B. says:

            Hi Jenna,

            You are a kind and generous soul. Even if your ex was not as malign as other narcissists, he has abused your trust and this is not to be minimized. Yes, he was abused as a child but so were many Acons and despite this fact, many decided not to take advantage of others. Adults know right from wrong and they are able to stop this behaviour, if they have to. If their behaviour were uncontrollable, all narcissists would be in jail by now.

            Your compassion, your thoughtfulness, your understanding, your patience and words of comfort are gifts only few people have. I think that these special gifts you have should be given to people who deserve them and not to those who cannot appreciate them.

          9. Windstorm2 says:

            I totally agree that being abused as a child is no excuse to abuse others as an adult. Lots of us were abused as children as well. It is the responsibility of every person to rise above their own personal problems and become a responsible adult in society. Past events provide explanations and answers – they do not provide excuses.

          10. jenna says:

            EB and fellow readers,

            I think one of the reasons i am able to have sympathy for him is due to the fact that there are no children involved. I despise the narcs who impregnate their partners, then abuse the children, run off, try not to pay child support, etc. And then there are some unmentionable narcs who sexually abuse children. Those narcs should be chemically castrated and made infertile for life imo. If children are hurt, my sympathy always manifests there.

            Also, i would not be able to tolerate the despicable behaviors that some narcs exhibit like name calling, insulting, physical violence, property damage, taking financial advantage, sexual degrading, forceful behavior, repeated gaslighting etc. Because mine didn’t do those, i’m able to have sympathy i think.

            I realize he betrayed my trust. And believe me I went through the anger stage. I told him he’s disgusting to be on such websites and i blocked him. After abt a wk, i unblocked him and questioned him more. I was not satisfied w his answers so i told him off again. He replied “pls i can’t take much more of this. I know i’m going to hell for all my sins and i feel like killing myself. I’m a failure.”

            That’s when i realized how greatly wounded he became that i (and a few other pple) discovered his secrets. He was exposed. He was in deep depression. I know this to be a fact because he removed his profile pic from fb and whatsapp. I’m not even on his fb so he didn’t do it to prove something to me. When i asked him abt it months later, he said he can’t look at himself.

            When i loved him so much, why would he resort to these websites? Also, he is against sex b4 marriage (facade?), and felt guilty for having sex w me. Yet, he was on these websites. After i found hg’s blog, i understood why. My anger was gradually replaced by sympathy. I hated hating and i wanted to understand.

            I look at it this way. He abused my trust, but i am an adult. Somebody abused him when he was a child. So my sympathy is greater for him, than it is for myself.

            Also, he has stopped the online behavior. I set up a fake account on those websites and messaged him. It shows him as inactive and he did not reply. So i believe he is shameful for his actions and is trying to change.

            And honestly, some non narcs have treated me worse than he has, like some of my relatives. He is actually pretty kind in comparison to them. He always comforts me when i’m down. He provides a listening ear and offers suggestions. Lord knows where he comes up w the suggestions since he lacks empathy😅

            But i am guarded these days thx to hg and the lovely pple here. I do not meet him. I also know he may withdraw at any time, and i don’t take it personally anymore due to everything i’ve learned here.

            I will remain guarded. He texts me abt once a month now and i am comfortable w that. He may have somebody else. That’s fine too because i don’t think i could live w him after reading hg’s information. Thank u EB for ur kind advice.

          11. E. B. says:

            Hi Jenna,

            Thank you very much for explaining why you have so much understanding for him. You have a kind heart and a lot of compassion for others and I believe you that you do not tolerate some types of behaviours. Not all narcissists are the same. Some are malignant and vindictive and others seem to be benign compared to the evil ones. From what you write, I do not know your ex enough to tell if he is narcissist or a normal with narcissistic traits. If he is definitely a narcissist, his abuse is more subtle and he may be taking advantage of your traits to get fuel.

            While I was reading your comment, some memories and thoughts came up. Since I come from a dysfunctional family and I have met many different narcissists in my life, I would like to share my experience with them.

            1- “He replied “pls i can’t take much more of this. I know i’m going to hell for all my sins and i feel like killing myself. I’m a failure.”

            Narcissists test people. If they notice that they show too much empathy or compassion, they will use self-deprecating comments to get pity (fuel) from you. Although I have met narcissists who said they believed in God, I cannot recall any of them who believed in life after death. If they know that their victims do, they will use this information to get fuel from them. They lie to get some fuel.

            2-“He was in deep depression. I know this to be a fact because he removed his profile pic from fb and whatsapp.”

            Narcissists usually have more than just one FB (or other social media) profile: the official one with their real name and the fake ones. Their official profile helps them maintain their public image and is clean. The whole activity is done through their fake profiles, though. Do you know any of his fake profiles? You said you set up a fake account and contacted him. Did you contact him to his official account (real name) or to his fake account(s)? Years ago my narc brother gave me his fake FB profile password to test FB. He said it might be useful if I wanted to get in touch with old friends of mine because I live abroad. There were many women with huge breasts who looked like prostitutes (‘People you may know’ ?). These women were exactly the opposite type of woman he supposedly liked and married. His official FB profile (the one with his true name) is very different. He shows himself as a loving father and a family man.

            “Also, he has stopped the online behavior. I set up a fake account on those websites and messaged him. It shows him as inactive and he did not reply.”

            My brother told me he does not reply to any woman who tries to contact him or flirt with him through his official profile. Only family members, relatives and *safe* people he knows are allowed to be on his Friends list. Narcissistic relatives he cannot stand are not accepted either.

            3-“He abused my trust, but i am an adult. Somebody abused him when he was a child. So my sympathy is greater for him, than it is for myself. “

            Many of us have been (sexually, physically, psychologically) abused in our childhood but we do not abuse others. If your ex is a narcissist (I said “if” because I do not know him), he may know you by now and he may be taking advantage of your generous compassion and understanding. This is my opinion.

            4-“some non narcs have treated me worse than he has”

            This is my experience too, Jenna. Some empaths have treated me worse than narcissists. I doubt that these people are empaths or normals, even though their jobs attract empaths (I do not agree with it at all but this would be a different subject).

            It is not good to tolerate abuse just because we have had it much worse before. This is one of the reasons why some battered women who went through hell during their childhood (rape and so on) tolerate violent Lessers. They say that compared to their alcoholic parents, their husbands were not so bad but it is still abuse. I know that your ex did not hit you but if he betrayed your trust, there are other men out there who are not like him, although they had abusive parents, and they will appreciate being together with someone so kind, thoughtful and caring like you.

          12. jenna says:

            EB, i will have to think abt this some, and get back to u in a day or two. Thank u for ur detailed reply.

          13. jenna says:

            Hello EB,

            Hope u are having a pleasant day.

            U stated that u come frm a dysfunctional family. I’m really sorry abt this. Yet, u seem to have grown into a caring person, and i am touched that u have put in so much time towards my story. Thank you.

            To answer ur first query, i guess it is difficult to ascertain if my ex is a narc. However, hg did confirm that he is a mid-range narc. His pity plays during hoover were out of this world. When pity plays didn’t work, he opted for ‘is this what i get for everything i’ve done for u’ type msgs, and finally he opted to sexual lures. His pattern during the initial grand hoover eerily followed exactly how hg describes it in his hoovering article abt the mid-ranger. He also has the cold dead stare most of the time, unless we are intimate.

            I think u r correct. His abuse is more subtle, and perhaps i do not recognize it many times. But the upside to this – if i don’t recognize it, it does not hurt my feelings.

            1- “He replied “pls i can’t take much more of this. I know i’m going to hell for all my sins and i feel like killing myself. I’m a failure.”

            My ex is more religious than i am. This is one of the traits that attracted me towards him at the beginning. I THOUGHT he has a strong moral compass. He has chapters frm scriptures memorized and often is asked to give sermons.
            After exposure, he tried to deny, deflect, blame shift for abt 1 month, but finally he just admitted to his wrong doing. Maybe it was another pity play, like u suggest, or maybe he cognitively realized, after being told day after day, that he was wrong. He wanted the criticisms to stop, and maybe admitting to the accusations of ‘using me’ for sex instead of loving me, he thought the criticisms may stop.

            2-“He was in deep depression. I know this to be a fact because he removed his profile pic from fb and whatsapp.”

            Now that u point it out, and after reading hg’s article regarding fb silence, i do realize he can have more than one fb profile. But I do not know any of his fake profiles.

            3- “Also, he has stopped the online behavior. I set up a fake account on those websites and messaged him. It shows him as inactive and he did not reply.”

            This i did, not on fb, but on the casual sex websites he was on.

            3-“He abused my trust, but i am an adult. Somebody abused him when he was a child. So my sympathy is greater for him, than it is for myself.”

            I do realize many of us have been abused in childhood but do not abuse others. If the abuse by him consisted of more than what it did consist of, perhaps i would not be able to forgive him. But because it was mostly deflecting, lying, secrecy, blame shifting, future faking, pulling hot and cold, withdrawing, turning the switch off, i was able to eventually forgive.

            I honestly believe that many of his behaviors are not his fault. Frm his world view, he does what he does because his narcissism pushes him towards it. Why else are these patterns (porn, deflection, polygamy etc.) so universal amongst narcs? He has said to me even b4 i realized he’s a narc, “you’ll never understand me, i don’t even understand myself.”

            Having said that, he does want to change, perhaps for selfish reasons, but change nevertheless. He hates how his world has turned upside down frm depression, how he can’t face certain pple, and he wants to stop many of his behaviors that have led to that. Maybe he is lying, idk.

            I do see some changes in him though. Now, no matter how frustrated he gets frm my arguments, he never blocks me, because i cried the last time he blocked me, and i requested that he never do so again in the future. He apologized, spent an hour on the phone helping me feel better, and promised he would not block me again. We’ve had a few heated arguments since then, and like he promised, he did not block me. We have agreed never to block each other in the future.

            4-“some non narcs have treated me worse than he has”

            I do realize that this is no excuse to accept abuse in the present, and like u pointed out, it can b esp dangerous in situations like battered wife syndrome.
            But sometimes, when the world is cruel, receiving a text frm him gives me peace. He offers sugguestions, or in the least, when he does not know what suggestions to offer, he guides me thru slow breathing exercises😂

            I have forgiven him EB. I cannot hold a grudge for too long, unless a certain line has been crossed, or unless there is no explanation for the person’s behavior.

            I am w someone else EB. He is not a narc. He is definitely not an empath though. I would say he’s a normal. His neglect towards me was very disheartening, but since the summer, he is working on himself and i am happy abt that. It is making it easier to forget abt ex narc. He knows i am in touch w ex, and i allow him to read the texts btwn my ex and i.

            I would like to give u a segment of the text conversation that made me decide to forgive my ex. I am going by memory, so it is not word for word. This is post hoover and re-establishment of the relationship as friends. By then, i had been on hg’s blog for a few months, and i had confronted ex abt his narcissism. He denied it at first, after reading the DSM definition and the word ‘grandiosity.’ It took him more than one month to accept it.
            He accepted it after i sent him a link stating that narcs never feel happy or sad (sad for others), as he never feels happy or sad. He had said a few times during our time together, ‘i have no emotions.’ I thought he was just repressing his emotions because he was so sad that we ‘broke up.’ Silly me.

            The convo below took place abt a month after he accepted his narcissism.

            Me: can i ask u a question abt narcissism?
            Him: let’ see
            Me: i read that narcs have no identity. I recall u telling me many times that u lost ur identity. I’m really sorry.
            Him: i have an identity! I know what i was, and i can get it back. And i know my name.
            Me: ok
            Him: Speaking of identity, my teacher in boarding school, changed my name. He said my name represents something very sacred, and should not be used as a name, so he changed it to (insert name).
            Me: but ur name is v nice
            Him: he didn’t like it
            Him: he was gay
            Me: i recall u telling me a few yrs ago that he was gay. But how do u know?
            Him: u just know
            Me: did he try something w you?
            Him: he was married and had kids
            Me: did he try something w you?
            Him: it doesn’t matter now
            Me: did he try something w you? I need to know
            Him: i’ve already forgiven him
            Me: u should not forgive him. U were an innocent child and u probably did not know what to do
            Him: you’re the first person i’m telling
            Me: i want to kill him. He’ll go to hell for this
            Him: can we not talk abt it anymore?
            Me: ok

            After that, i cried non-stop for abt an hour, tears flooding down my cheeks at an alarming rate. I decided after knowing this, that i will try my best never to hurt him, like this teacher had hurt him. What was he subjected to, possibly repeatedly, for 3 yrs (duration of his stay there), that his soul involuntarily evacuated his body, so that he doesn’t feel the pain? Anal sex, fellatio? Omg, just thinking abt it makes me nauseous and is making the room spin. My ex was in that school for 3 yrs, so there was no escaping the teacher. He was 11.
            He was young enough to not be defiant, yet old enough to fully feel, recall day after day (at the time), despise, and fearfully anticipate the abuse.

            Now, narcissism has allowed him to supress some of those memories. I believe it was like a 3 yr jail sentence for him, w no escape, but his body found it’s own escape, thru narcissism😢😢😢

          14. gabbanzobean says:

            Oh my Jenna. That story made me cry!!!!! I am glad you have answers. What I would not give to learn how mine became the way he is. I wish I had the info you have. I know it would not make the pain lessen but it would help me to understand further what and how he ended up the way he is. I see lots of religious similarities between your narc and mine.

          15. jenna says:

            Hi gabs, it’s definitely a sad story, if it’s true. EB has her suspicions, so i have replied to her, and am waiting eagerly for her comment.
            Similarly, if mr. Piano recital were to give u a glimpse of his past, i think we must question it. It still may not give us the answers.
            This is why i try to read all comments. It helps me further my understanding.

          16. E. B. says:

            Hello Jenna,

            Thank you so much for your long comment and for your time. If you do not feel comfortable writing about certain things, please do not worry about it.

            If HG told you your ex is a MRN, please believe him. He will not change. It was the way you spoke about your ex that I could not understand what he was but the more examples you provide about him, the more I am convinced that he is taking advantage of your empathic traits, Jenna. Thank you for rewriting the conversation between you and him. I do not believe the part about being sexually abused by his teacher. The way he behaved during the conversation does not seem natural to me. If I take into account other behaviours too (“I am failure”, “you’ll never understand me, i don’t even understand myself”), I can see *a pattern* there. His favourite manipulation tactic seems to be playing the poor me to get pity or tears from you.

            He knows that you will believe every word he says. Some people hide themselves behind the mask of faith and religion to manipulate other people. If they pretend to be religious and to have a strong moral compass, others will believe every word they say without questioning them. I prefer to pay attention to behaviour rather than (empty) words.

            Forgiving is an act of generosity. It is very painful to realize that someone we love or appreciate as a good friend is a fraud and is taking advantage of us. I can understand when you say that if you do not recognize his behaviour, it does not hurt your feelings. This is a way of protecting yourself. However, it is not always possible to protect yourself 100% because narcissistic abuse can erode your self-esteem.

            I pay attention when people who might be narcissists cry. Although some narcissists can produce tears, most of them cannot. They *pretend* to dry their tears with their handkerchief or with their hands. I have never seen any tears flooding down their cheeks.

            Yes, I remember that you spoke about being with someone else. Your ex seems to be giving you what you do not get from others. It must be hard to be with someone who is distant or maybe emotional unavailable. I hope your husband is able to create a meaningful emotional connection with you, Jenna.

          17. HG Tudor says:

            Very good observations.

          18. jenna says:


            Yw and thank u.

            Have u considered substituting for hg when he is travelling?! (but i guess he would not allow it😛)

            It did cross my mind that my ex may be lying abt the abuse. But it was a fleeting thought that left my mind quickly. You may be absolutely correct that he may be lying. But for me, even if there is a 1% possibility that it is true, or even an exaggeration of some abuse that took place and i was not sensitive towards it, i would not b able to forgive myself. After all, he did become a narc, and profound neglect or abuse would have caused it.

            When i stated ‘tears flooding down my cheeks’, i was referring to myself, not him. You are correct. I never once saw him cry.

            I am thinking deeply abt ur comment that his fav manipulation tactic w me is to gain pity. I did realize he engages in much pity play, but only during depression (and hoover). When he is not depressed, there are no pity plays, and instead much arrogance. So i genuinely thought that during depression, his sorrow for himself is real.

            EB, i would like to give u a snapshot of another text convo, which i think is the opposite of pity play, and this leaves me a little confused.

            Me: i think we will meet in heaven if i make it there. And u will make it there too becoz npd is not ur fault. It is the result of ur childhood.

            Him: i have to pay for my sins. I don’t think u understand the concept of heaven and hell

            Me: well that’s what i believe

            Him: Heaven and hell doesn’t work that way

            Me: i still think i’ll see u there

            Him: think what u want, but it just doesn’t work like that

            Me: oh

            Here, he is basically telling me that i should not think the best of him, and i should realize he’s a sinner. This convo took place post hoover and re-establishment of the relationship as friends, so there was no reason to ‘warn’ me, as hg describes narcs do, to test a candidate at the beginning of a relationship.
            So is this not the opposite of pity play? I am a little confused. Ty.

          19. HG Tudor says:

            There is never any substitution for me.

          20. jenna says:

            Of course there’s no substitute for you HG. Narcs are narcs after all!

          21. HG Tudor says:

            There’s only one HG Tudor.

          22. jenna says:

            I don’t know if my comment went thru cuz my browser reloaded. If i’m repeating, my apologies.

            Obviously tudes. That goes without saying. There’s no greater, self aware narc than u in this world, past, present, and future.

          23. Diva says:

            Now I know the true meaning of the statement “that’s a blessing and a curse.”…….Diva

          24. jenna says:

            Diva, u may b banished to the naughty step again!

          25. Diva says:

            Hi Jenna……Have you read the article “Back For More” yet? and the comments……I am guessing not…….It’s kind of apt really… I am back on the seat!!!…….Diva

          26. jenna says:

            Diva, i have not read it yet. I am behind. So u r back on the step?! 😄

          27. Diva says:

            Hey Jenna…..I was put back on the step for a minor misunderstanding. Then I read that HG told Dr HQ, that these steps are a stairway to heaven or hell depending on which way he faced you. Since K has stated numerous times that Heaven doesn’t want me and Hell is afraid I will take over, that must explain why this step has no impact on me………however it might also explain that I am foolish as well as defiant…….but I much prefer K’s synopsis!!!!………Diva

          28. K says:

            Being on the naughty steps just adds to your deviant and sordid reputation for mischief making. Besides you can brag that you were on The Steps the longest, which makes you the “super cool empath”. It is like being in solitary, then you can get a tattoo of “The Naughty Steps” on your arm. K

          29. NarcAngel says:

            As long as you have no designs on that top step. See the one with the well worn grooves and the N A carved into it? Thats my ass tattoo.

          30. Jenna says:

            K and diva, lol!
            A tattoo of the ‘naughty steps’ !!
            Slight correction. It should read ‘Hg’s naughty steps’ 😂
            How i wish to be on the naughty steps and haven’t been placed there once! Diva suggested i insult depeche mode but i just can’t, cuz i like them. 😅

          31. HG Tudor says:

            And long may you continue to do so Jenna.

          32. Jenna says:

            Hg, pls just once may i be excused to the naughty step?🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

            Ok, how abt this? Depeche mode sucks, you’re a jerk, your blog is stupid, your books are dumb, your interviews are idiotic, u use a selfie stick and ur iphone to create ur erotic videos.

            Now may i go join diva on the naughty step?!!! 🤣🤣🤣

          33. K says:

            And I thought I was provocative. You made me laugh, thank you!

          34. Jenna says:

            Hi k,

            I’m glad i made u laugh!

            It obviously had no effect on hg though😝
            I thought he might reply something like this:

            If my blog is stupid, why r u here?
            If my books r dumb, why do u read, and that too, in one sitting?
            If my interviews are idiotic, why do u listen and make great praise in the comments full of emojis?

            Thank god he didn’t.

            I just want some negative fuel frm him (naugty step) rather than to be ignored. Omg i’m a narc!!!

          35. K says:

            You are not a narc; you are a riot! Good luck getting on those “Naughty Steps”. I am rooting for you.

          36. Diva says:

            Hi Jenna & K……I don’t need a tattoo of the naughty steps on my arm……the steps are already imprinted on my ar$e…..I have spent my whole life on one naughty step or another……if I am not on them I get withdrawal symptoms……..I think I am addicted to them……..that’s my excuse anyhow!!!!!……Diva

          37. K says:

            Diva, Jenna and NA
            whether your ass or your arm is tattooed; it is fabulous street cred.

          38. Diva says:

            Hi K…..another confession…..I can’t have a real tattoo…..I faint at the sight of a needle, it all stems from lying as a kid about a mysterious illness and then I was made to have an operation that I really did not need…….yes I was fooling consultants at the age of 10……Diva

          39. K says:

            Well, the depravity deepens. Hmmm…I think we are not even near rock bottom with you yet. We could always make one of those tattoos that you wet and hold onto your skin for 3 minutes. And then you can wash it off whenever you want. K

          40. Diva says:

            Hey K……those fake tattoos are a good idea but nothing sticks to me!!!! Well apart from narcs!!!!!!….Diva

          41. Jenna says:

            Diva, i’m sorry that u were made to have an unecessary operation as a child. So many kids lie or exaggerate an illness to get out of school, or to get some extra TLC. They think it’s a harmless fib. U probably wanted to come clear at that point, but u must have been scared.

          42. Diva says:

            Yes I was scared, but at the start I was less scared of have an operation, than face the consequences of lying. It was all going great until I saw that needle….I hadn’t quite thought the whole thing through…..and by the time that it was becoming crystal clear, I had a blue gown on and I was being injected…….Diva

          43. Jenna says:

            Aww diva, being caught lying as a child is definitely scary. I hope u can overcome ur fear of needles in the future. Hg can inject tons of needles into u for negative fuel. Exposure and response prevention therapy for u.

            Hg, have u ever thought of becoming an acupunturist? U could dig those needles in pretty deep and nobody would even realize ur doing so! 😅
            Wouldn’t u love that hg, u sadistic beast? Oops i wrote the word ‘beast’! Er… i meant u sadistic person! Fear not hg, the word ‘beast’ has been replaced! 😄

            Sorry, i just had to…

          44. HG Tudor says:

            No, it would be boring.

          45. Jenna says:

            Boring? Poking needles would not be enough negative fuel for u that means! U need more potent negative stimulation than that! 😰

          46. HG Tudor says:

            Far too rudimentary.

          47. Jenna says:

            Of course, i should have known!

          48. Diva says:

            Hey Jenna…..I am breaking out in a queasy cold sweat just reading this…….there wouldn’t be enough pain involved with acupuncture for it to be of any interest…..and I think you had the word right the first time!!!!!…..Diva

          49. Jenna says:

            Diva, i’m sorry i elicited that reaction frm u. Pls try not to think abt it.

            I got the word right the first time?! Hehe! U know how much hg hates his ‘creature’/’beast.’ I just had to make the joke.

            Perhaps teasing him abt his creature will allow him to see a humour angle to it, that his creature is nothing but an existence in his mind, and hopefully come closer to confronting and conquering it. Hey, it’s worth a try!

          50. Diva says:

            Hey Jenna……definitely no apology required……I made my own hospital bed and subsequently had to lie in it for a while…..I learned a lot lay in that bed……you have to look for the positives……Diva

          51. Jenna says:

            Narcangel, diva, k,

            Lolllll!!!! 😂😂😂
            I’m dying!!

          52. Diva says:

            Hey Narc Angel ….I definitely have no designs on the top step… it’s all yours…….according to HG, the top step is going to be the closest to his version of heaven or hell……whichever it is…….my ears are too delicate to abide the screaming!!!!………Diva

      2. Merripen says:

        Jenna, what a good, strong enlightened empath you are! You’re gaining some mad skills from HG and growing the strength of your restraint. It must be very difficult to witness his restless struggle (not to mention be exposed to his obnoxious behaviour). It’s funny to hear you describe it, like you’re above, somehow, observing, but not embroiled emotionally so very much, now. That is telling, don’t you think?

        1. Jenna says:


          Thank u. I learn so much frm hg, as we all do. I used to watch sam vaknin until i found this site. Then, i never went back to vaknin.

          Sometimes, ex’s words hurt me, but after discovering what he is, i try to resist expressing my hurt in situations where i know it will be of no use. He becomes wounded when i challenge him, and i do not want to wound him, as he’s been wounded enough as a child.

          In situations where i feel he can develop cognitive empathy, i will express and explain my hurt in detail, but i remind him that it’s not his fault for not realizing it since he’s a narc. He really tries to understand, or at least he pretends to.

          His struggle is indeed a restless one. He texted me late one night asking ‘why is my heart always burning?’ I didn’t see the text until the next day. I replied explaining the underlying fury, but by then he didn’t want to talk abt it. He sometimes confesses his feelings, then regrets it later.

          I find ur presence here v bright. U have beautiful and encouraging words for all of us. I am glad u r free of ur narc, who used ur money, took advantage of ur kindness, and much more. Thank u for reaching out to me, and continued healing to u. 🌹

          1. Merripen says:

            Thank you, Jenna. Your ex couldn’t have had a more compassionate, more patient hope of a partner than you. You are kind and not jaded or ruined by what happened to you. I admire that you’ve retained these things. Less fortunate victims have seen their wine turn to vinegar. If my presence here is a bright spot for you, please know that yours is a soft and gentle spot for me. Sending you some good energy for your own continued healing and enlightenment.

      3. ajo says:

        Jenna and GB,

        Mine was the same. Compliment after compliment. He never put me down, even passive aggressively until I had exposed him. Then he revealed such a vile person. The things he said of me were his projections. He called me sick, said I was a liar and I lived in a false world.
        I’m curious now if mine had a secret casual sex life!! What are these websites you refer to? I’m in the U.S. so ours may be different. They put their real names on there? That is crazy to me!!!

        1. jenna says:

          Ajo, i’m sorry he called u ‘sick, liar’ etc. It’s definitely projection. The worst my ex called me is ‘selfish’ for wanting his time.
          I live in the u.s. too, so the casual disgusting sex sites would be the same i guess, depending on which ones he chooses ☹️
          He didn’t put his real name on the sites. R u kidding? And damage his holier than thou facade? No way! I think many narcs use dating/casual sex sites, at least the somatic ones. Mine is somatic. Gb’s is cerebral, so i’m a little surprised he does it.

          1. Ajo says:

            If he didn’t use his real name, then how did you know it was him?
            He isn’t a somatic or a cerebral. Just a Midrange. It doesn’t bother me anymore that he said those things about me. I know he was scared as hell because I had revealed to him that I had spoken to his ex’s and how they all loathe him and that i know the truth. I’m sure he was freaking out. He can call me all the names he wants. Most people won’t believe him. I’m not the one who has to avoid certain places and has a laundry list of people who won’t speak to me or have anything to do with me. See, I was unfaithful to my husband as well and a lot of people know. But, I am forthcoming about it and I didn’t continue that behavior. And I don’t walk around in shame about it. What I did doesn’t define me. It defines him and he lets it by continuing to choose it.
            So again, like Craigslist or what? I’d love to find out as at this point it wouldn’t surprise me….Especially when fuel supplies are low and his IPPS is likely getting stale.

          2. jenna says:

            Ajo, i am glad it doesn’t bother u that he called u those names. He is definitely the one who feels shame. That means he has not eroded ur self esteem. Very nice to hear that!
            ‘Craiglist’? Noooo! That’s too clean a site. One of my family members entered his screen names, just as gabs did, into various search engines. And there it was. Him, shirtless on some casual sex dating sites. The other images on one site were images of body parts without a face. I felt like vomitting. U need to use all search engines – yahoo, google, safari, Msn, because some results won’t show up on certain search engines. I was quite disturbed, angry, confused for wks. Thank god i found hg’s blog after that. My questions were slowly answered.

          3. gabbanzobean says:

            Wait what? You can use different search engines to look up different sex profile results? I was only using Google. Now that I know this information I’m going to have to go back and search his screen names again. Because I am just too damn curious and I have to know. Meh. 😕

          4. HG Tudor says:

            No, you don’t need to know GB, your emotional thinking is conning you into thinking you need to know and you then feed the emotional infection.

          5. Ajo says:

            God, I love you, HG. You’re so right! It does just feed the emotional frenzy in our minds when we look. The ex just reactivated his old fb account after a year the other day after having put up a new one last month. It sent me into a frenzy for sure. I got on Tinder and Bumble wondering if he was back on and that’s why the reactivation… what did all that searching do for me??? Nothing but put me back into a state of anxiety and thinking about him from an emotional view. The knot in my stomach returned. Knowing does nothing but send you back into the tornado. It’s a bottomless pit. There will never be an end. The end is only when you fully move on.

          6. gabbanzobean says:

            HG are you also going to suggest that I not print his hookup website/sex profiles and mail them to his wife? I did think about it, but decided not to. He would probably just deny it anyway and say it isn’t him despite his picture being there.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            It is a matter for you but you have anticipated the likely outcome of such activity.

          8. Ajo says:

            Hahaha. Craigslist is too clean! Wow. I would have no idea what his screenname would be. His real name is super generic…Last name is Jones. Haha. First name is super common as well. When I google his name and the city he lives, a man who was convicted of murdering his son and feeding him to a pig, fills the feed. He’s basically a ghost on the internet. I’m sure he has a secret presence somewhere…
            He did just deactivate his old fb account. I saw that last night on my messenger as his picture appeared next to his old messages. I’m blocked of course. I blocked him back in case he wanted to get friendly down the road. A mutual friend checked his page and he hasn’t updated anything. And he isn’t friends with his girlfriend. He probably has her blocked and she has no idea he is on as he shut it down before he met her even. He is up to no good, I’m sure. Bored of the new IPPS. I believe he has a six month cycle before devaluation and he’s right at 6 months. He also texted a mutual friend two weeks ago that he has ignored for the last year. I told her he was just putting feelers out to see if she’d respond favorably. That he would be back for more later because he is obviously low on fuel from his gf. He was never romantic with this friend but between IPPS’s he would constantly text her and want to hang out.
            I love how powerful I feel from this blog. It’s like I can not only predict his next moves, but know why he does what he does. Fuel really is everything! I’m sure if I hadn’t severely wounded him by exposing him to so many people, that he’d be back sniffing around. I feel pretty safe. Even if he tried, I’d never meet with him. I might mess with him like Doc Harleen does though. Sounds fun!!!
            Once you go no contact,l for a few months, they really seem like a stranger. I highly recommend it. When I saw his picture, I didn’t recognize him anymore. That’s because the man I knew doesn’t exist. Neither does the man any of you knew. They are a sad, anxious bunch who severely need help. I don’t wish harm. Rather the opposite. I wish they’d find true joy and happiness. That would save so many victims in the future from heartbreak and also save their children a lot of pain.

          9. Ajo says:

            That was supposed to say “reactivated”. Darn autocorrect m!

          10. gabbanzobean says:

            Yes my delicious cerebral. I’m surprised I found his profile on there too. I was tempted to create a fake name and mess with him but despite the site claiming to be free it asked for a credit card. So I didn’t bother because I figured making a fake name wouldn’t work. i wonder if his wife knows. I wanted to print out what I saw and send it to her but I doubt it would do any good. I know he was never really “mine” but seeing the profiles just hurt me. It’s like you want to hook up with strangers? Why? But yeah like you said….fear of intimacy. But if there’s a fear of intimacy why did he seem so good at it? The little things like the face and hair touching. Mimicking right? Sigh. 😕

      4. narc affair says:

        Hi jenna/gabbs…aspects of your ex narcs are so very similiar to mine. Im not surprised to hear both were on sex sites bc it really is about the fuel to them and no one person can indefinitely serve potent fuel the way they need it nonstop daily. The hot and cold and silences are probably due to shelving. They are busy with another fuel source or several. This is something ive accepted as much as its hurt me. Its reality. My narc has never called me names or directly devalued me its always been passive aggressive and very subtle. He once told me about an ex of his who lives in Colorado. I never asked for this info but he out of the blue brought it up. I know why now it was to admit to who hes involved with again. Every now and then he will send me a link that originated from…you guessed it Colorado. This is to devalue and place doubt and insecurity hence why he brought the info up in the first place…yet another tool.
        Knowing about gaslighting has helped me realise im not being oversensitive or imagining his covertness. They can be very agreeable and sweet and still devalue. Last week he sent me a link about an article that discusses how someone in a intimate lacking relationship feels and again its a tactic to devalue and keep me bound. Hes basically wanting me to dwell on my marriage and realise how lucky i am to have what i dont have in my marriage with him.
        Ive found it helpful to step back when dealing with him and be an observer not a full participant. When youre a full participant it gets too emotional whereas an observer you can gain more knowledge and feel way more in control.

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          Narc Affair
          Very good advice about remaining an observer. I use that a lot too

        2. gabbanzobean says:

          Narc affair,
          OMG yes! Overly sweet while they still devalue!!!
          I just posted a text conversation that I had today with my narc. It’s over in a different thread to thread called “Prey”. Looking back on it now I noticed subtle tidbits of polite devaluing. And yes it is also in sane to hear that they are on sex sites. I was so tempted to print out the profiles and mail them to his wife. But I know it’ll never do any good, she knows of his prior infidelities and still won’t leave him.

          1. jenna says:

            Gabs, did mr. Piano recital post shirtless pics on those sites? My ex did 😡
            And his sweat pants were pulled down quite low😫
            I saved the pic for my viewing pleasure😂
            He doesn’t know i saved it 😅

          2. gabbanzobean says:

            Nope just a profile pic of his face. I can’t access any other pics unless I sign up for the site.

            Your reply just tripped another memory of something he said to me once…

            One time he says, “Oh I’d love for you to come hang with my friends sometime! I can regale them with stories from when I used to live near you and how I knew you when we were kids!” (I was a long distance DLS, I met a few of his friends but never his “close” friends)

            I said “But you never lived near me, you never knew me while we were growing up. Your friends would know that!”
            Him: “Well that depends on what group of friends we hang out with!”

            Did he mean “fuel pumps” instead of friends? At the time I shrugged off his comments and attributed it to him joking around. But really, he wanted to fake parts of his past life growing up?

          3. jenna says:

            Gabs, maybe he wanted to show u off to his friends since he may see u as providing good residual benefits and traits. But he doesn’t want to expose that u are a dls, so he is making up a false background regarding how he knows u.

        3. jenna says:

          Narcaffair, being an observer instead of a full time participant – this exactly! This is what i’m doing now and therefore i am less emotionally involved. I am glad it is the same for u.

      5. gabbanzobean says:

        Your narc asked you why his heart is burning? Damn!! I wish mine was aware of even an inkling of what he is. A lot of the shit he says it seems like he knows what he is, but then again I’m not sure.

        1. jenna says:

          Gabs, he describes his feelings to me sometimes. He used to do it even b4 i found out he is a narc. At that time, i thought some of these feelings r a little odd, like when he said ‘i am nothing but i can b anything.’ 😧
          I used to think – ummm, ok whatever u say, that’s a bit weird! I told a friend he said this. Her response – ask him to tell this to his guy friends and they’ll say ‘wth r u saying man?!’ 😅
          Now, i feel extreme sympathy after finding out he’s a narc and i know where it’s coming frm – no sense of identity😞

      6. gabbanzobean says:

        Sorry just noticed a typo…that last sentence should have said “denial and defiance” not “detail”.

      7. gabbanzobean says:

        He has repeatedly told me that our “intimate” relationship is over yet he still wants to be my “friend”. My “friend” who will continually have weakened willpower in the sexual department. I am assuming this means all he wants is me to keep being DLS when he feels like indulging? There are times he actually seems like a friend, telling me he is always there for me and then the other part of the time he is spouting off crap like I posted above and initiating sexual talk with me (while blaming his weakened willpower). And it is a little under 2 weeks until our dinner date/meet up. At this point I am almost certain it would be less painful if he does not show up. He has done it once before (stand me up that is). I really have no idea what I am going to get. First he gave me a list of reasons as to why he may not be there. Then after that it seemed like he was future faking by telling me about the plans he did make (such as dinner and ideas for possible activities out together before and after dinner, which he was planning). All interspersed with silence back and forth in-between. I am sure he is getting a shit ton of fuel from this and this alone. Next Friday will be most interesting that’s for sure.

        1. jenna says:

          Gabs, mr. Piano wants to keep u as a friend w benefits. Pls don’t allow it. U don’t deserve to b an FWB. If u want to be his friend, without making out, without sex, then i think it is ok, as long as u are guarded. For this, u need to be strong.

          No contact will obviously be best, but since i personally did not do it, it would be wrong of me to expect that of u. It would be hypocritical for me to preach what i don’t practise.

          Pls be prepared that he will withdraw at any time, and try not to take it personally, for he is a narc after all and u r just an appliance to him.

      8. narc affair says:

        Hi jenna…i wish we could reply under individual posts. Hopefully wordpress changes this. Yes being an observer has helped tremendously but it takes cinstant reminding bc my first instinct is to react. I think also having the knowledge acquired here and elsewhere has made observing easier bc i know what im looking at. Its helped eliminate the stress caused by the cycles when devaluation crops up. I know the whys.

        Hi gabbs…i do worry for you with your meeting with your exnarc. He definitely sounds like hes playing you. I think you hit it on the nail when you said he will indulge every so ofyen but the rest of the time its friend zone. Hes keeping you on the shelf for intermittent fuel. Its a really shitty thing to do to someone playing with their heart that way. You deserve so much more. Why are you meeting him?

        1. gabbanzobean says:

          Narc Affair,
          I am not sure how to answer. I know everyone thinks I am off my nutter here. So I will just list what is going through my mind. Seeking closure (that I am told I won’t get), trying to apply what I have read here to study and observe his behavior (even though I am told I am nowhere near as detached observer as I should be), because I still think maybe he is not really a narc (I never saw any fury, where is the fury?) because I want and hope things will be different, because I am still in love with him (the illusion that is him that I am told). Because while I want to have him in bed again, I also want to tell him “no” so I can see his reaction. To see if he will even show up, follow through with his promises. I want to see if he tries the mirroring bullshit with me. I can go on and on. I know it’s fucked but it’s something I feel I need to do. I am hopeless.

          1. E. B. says:

            Hi Gabbanzobean,

            “I never saw any fury, where is the fury?”

            If your narcissist is a Mid-Range, his (cold) fury may manifest in his passive-aggressive behaviour. There are two types: cold fury and the explosive one. Most MRNs use cold fury only and rarely ‘explode’ because, unlike Lessers, they are able to control their emotions. Cold fury is passive-aggressive behaviour like (present) silent treatments.
            The book ‘Fury’ explains this in detail.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Just to clarify, Lessers usually show heated ignited fury and Mid Rangers usually show cold ignited fury. In both instances they have lost control of the ignited fury. The MR has a better control over ignited fury than the Lesser but they still often lose that control, but when they do it appears as cold fury most of the time (LMR may show heated ignited fury quite often). It isn’t the case that MR are able to control their emotions, but that MR have a better (but not complete) control over their ignited fury than the Lesser.

          3. E. B. says:

            Thank you for clarifying this, HG.

        2. jenna says:

          Narcaffair, u r correct. It definitely takes constant reminders to not be emotionally involved. That is why i feared leaving the blog, whenever i have considered it. I need constant reminders frm hg and others so i do not become emotionally invested. Thank u hg for everything.

      9. Kimi says:


        I do understand. I’ve been sucked back in…

        We’re operating from our emotions, not logic. I thought I might be able to remain detached, now knowing what he is. I cannot!

      10. narc affair says:

        Hi gabs…first off im not judgemental at all i totally get how you feel!! Im still in the thick of that entrapment of the heart. Its easy as an outsider to give you my opinion but its you who is involved with your narc and its not easy seperating the heart from the mind.
        Closure….im divided on this. On the one hand you can over time gain closure on your own thru witnessing deception and devaluements. Closure in the way of seeing more and more behind their mask but as far as him giving you any magical words thatll make it easier to move on im not so sure you will get that bc he wants to keep you in his fuel matrix. He will continue to play hot and cold and throw you crumbs to keep you from getting fed up and walking.
        Him being a narc imo is besides the point. It doesnt matter if he is or isnt bc hes not treating your right and hes married. I know firsthand relationships built on deception are foundationless. You cant build anything substantial on them. Im sure you want more for your future like maybe a marriage and children? He will string you along and you will waste many yrs hanging on and losing out on what you could be building. I just watched a utube on the time wasted when youre involved with a narc. You can regain so much like finances, improved health etc but you cant ever get back the precious time you lost persuing someone who can offer you nothing in the way of a meaningful future.
        As far as rejecting him sexually you could achieve this but in all honestly would it end at just that? Or would guilt set in and hope that maybe he has changed and wanted to revisit the intimacy between you? Then remorse bc itd feel final the fact you rejected what you so much had wanted. Would you be ok with leaving it at rejecting him?
        If he doesnt show up then hes had another devaluing jab at you which will be so upsetting. Beat him to the punch and either go no contact and stand him up or cancel. This gives you the power you so much deserve and your dignity!
        Bottom line is its your choice and your journey to work thru. I wish you the best of luck and know whatever your decision you wont be judged and you have support 💓

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          Narc Affair
          Very wise assessment and I completely agree with you. But sometimes we just have to see the proofs of those hard truths for ourselves. It’s just not enough to hear them from others. Especially if we’ve often been lied to and misinformed in our past. We all have to choose our own path for it to truly be “our path.”

      11. gabbanzobean says:

        I wanted to come back to this as something you said a few days ago just tripped a question in my mind. If they fear intimacy then why get married and settle down and have a kid? Surely at some point he would have had to get intimate and close in that regard. Basically if they are scared of intimacy so much how the hell did he end up married and not just wandering around from “appliance to appliance” getting his sexual thrill? He used to say stuff like “I will never leave my wife, I would die without her” or “well if I was not married I would be able to spend more time with you” or my personal favorite “why do you have to text me now? It is the weekend, I am with my family and I am TRYING to enjoy myself, I cannot talk to you right now” (why does he need to TRY to enjoy himself? LOL).

        I am just trying to make sense of what you said where you said they fear intimacy and as such it is easier to have sex with strangers. At some point his wife was a stranger. Why let her in, why let down the walls for her? There goes my jealousy again. I have always been rather jealous of her.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Marriage is a method of binding (see the Narcissist and Marriage). Marriage is also a significant part of the facade. Remember, our dislike of intimacy is overriden during the golden period because of the greater gain that is to be achieved.

          As for the comments
          I will never leave my wife, I would die without her” – triangulation
          “well if I was not married I would be able to spend more time with you” – lack of accountability by blaming something else

          or my personal favorite “why do you have to text me now? It is the weekend, I am with my family and I am TRYING to enjoy myself, I cannot talk to you right now” (why does he need to TRY to enjoy himself? LOL). – triangulation and devaluing, he would be enjoying himself but for YOUR interruption.

          Why let her in? Because of the draw of the IPPS, the potent fuel and the effect of the golden period.

          1. gabbanzobean says:

            On the other side of the coin, if a mid range has a DLS how does he triangulate her back with the wife (IPPS)?
            You’ve deciphered what I’ve had to hear on my end. I’m assuming it’s not all golden sunshine and rainbows for her either. Is the DLS not used in manipulating the wife because of the secretiveness? I’m assuming she’s punished in other ways or triangulate with someone else?

          2. gabbanzobean says:

            And shouldn’t that mean “….’pretending’ to enjoy himself” until I interrupted? 🤔😉

          3. HG Tudor says:


          4. jenna says:

            Hg, being a narc urself, do u find having one night stands/sex w near strangers easier because there is no fear of intimacy? Do u only feel this fear of intimacy w ur ipps or ur ipss? Ty.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            I believe there is logic in what you propose Jenna. I would point out that as mentioned previously, during seduction, the positive fuel and the ‘prize’ on display enables the dislike of intimacy to be overcome, but it must be right that its absence during a one night stand is a positive.

          6. ajo says:

            Jumping on Jenna’s comment about intimacy… So narcs enjoy the physical “act” of sex..the bodily pleasure. You fake the intimacy in the golden period?? Is that always the case? Or is the infatuation strong enough that you actually enjoy it? (mid-rangers specifically). The ex would want to look in my eyes and tell me he loved me and say things like “only you”, especially in the golden period. I never got the feeling from him or my ex that they loathed intimacy like you do. I think some narcs like being touched and loved on physically. It’s a hard thing to understand from us empaths. I prefer sex with the emotions. It’s just not as physically satisfying to me without it.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            The physical sensation is pleasant enough. To be crude, fucking is better than making love, but the fuel that flows from either is best. The intimacy is faked through the power provided by the positive fuel which assists in getting ‘past’ the aversion to intimacy. Physical gestures of course amount to fuel also. We all have an issue with intimacy but I accept that I do have a stronger aversion than some to it. It is not the act of being touched that we like, it is the fuel that comes from it.

          8. Ajo says:

            Thanks for the response!! That makes more sense…as much sense as a narc makes. Haha. You fake the closeness. It’s funny because the gf before me said he didn’t seem that interested in sex. I tried to explain that he was after the emotional high and he obviously knew for me he’d get a lot of emotional attachment from sex because I am open and confident with my sexuality (she is far more reserved and insecure about her body, etc). Like you said, it’s all about binding. Sex is very binding for me. Not as much so for other woman. You put your energy in the areas that are important to the woman you are with. 😊
            Towards the end he was far less emotional during and it started to feel like he was just f’ing me. Which he obviously was doing just that….the whole time. But he quit faking.

          9. jenna says:

            Hg, i see the answer here to ajo. I had asked u another question regarding this. U can just ignore it. Ty.

          10. jenna says:

            Hg, since in ur opinion, f’ing is better than making love, i think that means my ex enjoyed f’ing those other women more than he enjoyed being w me. I’m talking on the whole.

            W me:
            Intimacy: yes = bad
            Fuel: yes = good
            Physical sensation: yes = good

            W women frm casual sex sites:
            Intimacy: no = good
            Fuel: yes = good
            Physical sensation: yes = good

            Would u consider writing an article abt why one night stands are better than sex with an intimate partner? I would be very curious to know each and every detail abt this topic. Could u also write abt the married narc in regards to this? I would like to know if my ex will b satisfied w sex in his marriage or will be averse to it. If he cuddles w her the way he did w me, i’ll kill him! Lol jk… not… maybe… idk…

          11. Diva says:

            Hi Jenna…..very interesting topic. Part of me wants to know the answers now that you have raised these issues, but another part of me is screaming “ignorance is bliss.”……..Diva

          12. Diva says:

            Hi Jenna and Ajo …..any romantic relationship I have ever had as an adult has been with a narc…..your comments and HGs responses have got me wondering if I even know what intimacy is myself……if all I have ever known of intimacy was faked…….Diva

          13. jenna says:

            Diva, in my experience, the intimacy w a narc (though faked) is greater than the intimacy w a non-narc. So i am sure u must have felt real intimacy frm ur end.

          14. Diva says:

            Hi Jenna……I guess I will have to take your word for it……although I am sceptical…..there is only going to be one way of finding out for sure and the thoughts of that fill me with dread!!!!!!……Diva

          15. jenna says:

            Diva, keep in mind that my experience is based on 1 relationship w a narc, a mid-ranger.

            Some pple have had opposite experiences, like horrible intimacy. They were probably w victim narcs or lesser narcs.

          16. ajo says:


            Don’t sweat it! You may not have experienced real intimacy from their end, that’s correct. I don’t think I have either as all my relationships were with narcs as well.
            Just think of it this way… You were spending counterfeit money. It looks the same, so what you experience outwardly is going to be similar in a legit intimate relationship, but you actually get a real return!
            I think the depth during will be even better with a non-narc because they are actually good and safe outside the bedroom. I believe a lot of what “feels” so AWESOME with a narc in the bedroom is the trauma bonding and chemicals released because we are not truly connected to them. I remember saying, “Why don’t you say these things outside the bedroom?” I began to crave the bonding, so I literally wanted to have sex at least once a day in order to feel close to him. I didn’t feel loved unless I did. In a real relationship you feel loved outside the bedroom too. And safe…

          17. Windstorm2 says:

            Deep, loving bond in a permanent relationship. That’s why I had children.

          18. jenna says:

            Ajo, excellent comment. Yes, we feel safe w non-narcs outside the bedroom too. In my case, sometimes neglected, but safe.

          19. Diva says:

            Hi Ajo….that was a very honest and interesting take on a narc/empath relationship……it certainly gave me a lot to think about…….Diva

          20. jenna says:

            Is this absence of intimacy during a one night stand SO positive that u prefer it, like it, enjoy it more than u would w an intimate partner (after seduction phase is over)? Ty.

        2. Windstorm2 says:

          My exhusband always hated any intimacy. But then we never had any golden period. He would never even hold my hand when we were first dating. If I tried to touch him he would shake my hand off. The only reason he would ever touch me was if he wanted sex. And there was zero foreplay. I always thought it was hormone-based as a teenager/young man and then as a means of dominance and subjugation and to have children when he was older.

          He wanted to be married. In addition to the constant, ready fuel source, he wanted someone else to do all the cooking, cleaning and shopping. And to have a comfortable home to come back to every night. I always had to work outside the home, too, to bring in money, even when our children were babies because he wanted that extra income, so we could afford more things. Wives were to provide comforts in life. Otherwise he told me once he would just live like a bear in a cave.

      12. E. B. says:

        Hi Jenna,

        From what you wrote, your ex knows that you give him your emotional attention every time he tells you something *negative* about himself or his life. Would you feel sorry for him and comfort him if he told you that he would go to heaven?
        IMO, it is all about fuel but I would like to know what HG thinks about it.

        My narcissistic father used to make self-deprecating comments when he called me. He expected me to say that it was not true. One day I changed my behaviour. He asked me if I agreed to something negative about him and I said: “Yes, it’s true.” There was a pause. Then he said: “I beg your pardon?? I..I couldn’t hear you properly. Wh-what did you say???” Me: “I said that you’re right.” Him: “You mean…you agree that I am (…)”. Me: “If you say so, it must be true.”(*)
        I did not play his game and he gave up on this one, although he chose other ways to extract fuel from me.
        (*) This conversation was on the phone. He could not see my body language.

        1. jenna says:

          EB, i will try this the next time he texts me. I hope i will have my answer. But i have a feeling if i agree w him and reply ‘yes u will go to hell’ (lol i was having trouble even writing that) then he will just change the topic as he always does🙄
          Thank u EB.

          1. E. B. says:

            Hi Jenna,
            I would not tell him “Yes, you will go to hell” because there is fuel in it. The answer depends on (a) what it is, a statement? a question? and (b) what he wants to hear from you. For example, if he says: “I know I’m going to hell for all my sins.”, I would reply: “If you say so, (you must be right).” After all, he is the expert in religion (my irony). I would not contradict him when he makes self-deprecating comments because this is exactly what he wants: your pity = fuel. “Do you think I will go to hell for all my sins?”(question), I would reply: “I don’t know (what to say).” Keep it short and simple, neutral. Be boring. Do not engage. Change the subject. If you do not give him (b), he will have to find someone else to get fuel.

          2. jenna says:

            EB, i will write it here for practice: “if u say so” lol becoz i wouldn’t b able to write it without practice. Thx for the advice.

    2. Windstorm2 says:

      Very true. Both my parents were narcs and I’ve had to battle shame, blame and feeling inferior all my life.

      1. Jenna says:

        Windstorm, i’m so sorry that u had to experience being blamed and feeling inferior. U turned out to be such a lovely person despite that. That is amazing strength.

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          Thank you, Jenna

      2. E. B. says:

        I am sorry to hear that you all those feelings are still haunting you. Feeling inferior can be a sign that you have been scapegoated in your family of origin. May I ask if you also have social anxiety?

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          EB, your question made me laugh! Social anxiety is my biggest problem! I have it so bad it’s hard for me to even attend family holiday gatherings. Going to church, school, shopping – all are incredibly hard for me.

          1. E. B. says:


            I strongly believe that people who were methodically and repeatedly criticized by narcissistic parents or other narcissistic people (siblings, relatives, friends of the family, teachers, acquaintances) over the years, for several years, starting from a young age (2-4), not having anyone on their side to defend them and seeing other people joining the narcissist will eventually be convinced that they are the ones who are defective or less than others when they become adults. This leads to social anxiety. They will feel uncomfortable with certain social situations, especially those where they feel they are under scrutiny. Memories from the past are unconsciously activated.

          2. Windstorm2 says:

            I think you’re probably right. But knowing the cause doesn’t help a lot in overcoming it. I think my existence was a constant criticism for my mother. It was a strange contradiction. She was proud of my intelligence and accomplishments when noticed by others, but had to tear me down and ridicule me constantly to make herself feel more important. Even through her last decade with Alzheimer’s she was as ugly, bitter and vindictive as she could be to me.

            Finally in the last ten years or so, it has gotten easier. I have so many various successes I can draw strength from and have grown my own family of children and grandchildren who love and support me. But I imagine I will be fighting near crippling social anxiety every time I leave my home until I die.

            I tell myself it has been a benefit of sorts. I believe it has made me much more empathic, considerate and thoughtful than I would have been otherwise, but it has also kept me hidden away from so many social situations and people that I could have been helping and positively interacting with, so probably no benefit to any of us. Just a sad, painful reality.

          3. E. B. says:


            Some people in the medical field excuse the ugly behaviour of some Alzheimer patients claiming that the disease is responsible for it. I disagree. It is a personality disorder and not Alzheimer the reason for their spiteful behaviour.

            I am sure your narcissistic mother saw your intelligence and accomplishments and they were probably useful to keep her façade and at the same time she must have been jealous of you if she used to put you down when you were alone with her.

            I am glad to hear that you have been successful and that you have a loving family of children and grandchildren supporting you. Congratulations on your achievements, Windstorm! You are stronger and more self-confident than before.

            Knowing the cause does not mean the problem will disappear. You are right. I need to know the root of a problem if I want to find a solution but it does not mean other people have to deal with it the same way as I do. In this case it would be where my emotional triggers come from. Managing anxiety can be a lifetime work.

          4. Windstorm2 says:

            Thank you EB. No, she didn’t get more spiteful once she had Alzheimer’s. She’d always been that way. She did stop pretending to be nice to others after a certain point in her illness. She no longer recognized a reason to maintain a facade. She was always ugly to me, not just when we were alone. My kids grew up seeing it and that was a solace for me. Otherwise she could have had gaslighted and pretended she was never nasty. God spared me that. 😊

          5. E. B. says:


            Did you have to take care of her? Were you able to get some help from nurses or from other family members? Or was she in a nursing home?

            Yes, you were very lucky that your children met Mrs. Hyde. My mother and also my MIL would have turned my children against me, if I had any and I would let them have contact with them. I was fully aware of this from the very beginning, even though I did not know anything about NPD or BPDs at that time.

          6. Windstorm2 says:

            I was in charge of her care and her power of attorney. I could never have let her live with me. It would have ended in murder/suicide. My daughter and then her husband were her caretakers and she lived with them until she died. I had to take care on any problems, financial issues, talking to doctors, etc. I did have Mama every holiday, some weekends and 3-4 weeks in the summer when my school was out so my daughter could have breaks and take a vacation.

            That nearly killed me. Three weeks was about all I could endure at one go. For years every holiday was hell. She slapped and bit me when I had to change her diapers and was always difficult. She would pick up something of mine, look right at me with malevolence, and destroy it in front of me, if I couldn’t get to her first. She was spiteful, hateful and disdainful till the end.

          7. E. B. says:

            You have gone through hell with her! She did not deserve you. I would go mad if I had to put up with someone like her on holidays, weekends, for three or four weeks in a row and over the years. I would be exhausted to the point of collapse. I would implode! My mother did behave when she was (physically) ill. She knew that there was nobody else who would be willing to take care of her, not even Golden Child. I hope life was kind to you after she passed away.

          8. Windstorm2 says:

            Thank you, E.B. I have wonderful children who were always very supportive. My daughter is a true gem. She’s one of those super empaths with enough narc traits of her own to be tough and strong, yet caring and loving. No one ever takes advantage of her!

            Yes things have been great now that my mother is gone. I’ve sold off all her properties, gotten rid of anything that reminds me of her and that dark part of my life is in the past. I think she was so horrible because as the Alzheimer’s shut her mind down, she didn’t remember to put on a façade. They was nothing to cause her to pretend to be nice or appreciative anymore. Just her true self showed.

          9. jenna says:

            Windstorm, ur mother slapped and bit u? Oh! I am so horrified. Yet i admire ur strength during her care. I have much respect for u windstorm.

          10. Windstorm2 says:

            Thank you, Jenna. We all do what we have to do.

      3. NarcAngel says:


        But battle you did, and against those odds did not lose yourself completely. There is much evidence here that we are grateful that that is the case and that you still reach out to help others with their struggles. The shame, blame, and feeling inferior was not yours-it was theirs and you carried it for them because they were weak and small and never wanted you to know what strength you really possess. Theyre gone now-and I hope you have laid it down.

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          Thank you NarcAngel. That was both poetic and very sweet. While I suspected it since childhood, probably wasn’t till my late forties that I understood for sure that all those insults, blame and shame were because of their need to tear me down to make themselves feel better. It was pathetic really.

          It was my MIL who first shocked me by saying one day what a strong person I was, because I withstood tragedies and life’s pain without letting it break me. I had never, ever thought of myself as strong, but she cited examples of events, like my father’s suicide, that I couldn’t argue with. I realized that I really was strong and intelligent and had been all along. I’d just been brainwashed to think otherwise.

          That was when I began transforming all the negative things I’d been told about myself into feelings of beauty and happiness. I have come to realize over the years how truly fortunate I am to not be trapped as a narcissist- to be able to see, feel and experience the joy, beauty, love and happiness all around me. I think that ability is probably the source of my strength. And as empaths, we all have that strength inside us, we just need to recognize it and channel it.

          1. jenna says:

            Windstorm, i’m sorry to learn that ur father comitted suicide. I believe u said he was a narc. Hg has stated that suicides amongst narcs is not common. If u don’t mind, would you b willing to share what brought ur father to feeling so utterly helpless? If it is too triggering for u, then u need not answer. I will understand.

          2. Windstorm2 says:

            Both my parents were narcs and they both had a horror of nursing homes. Ending up in a nursing home was one of their worst fears. My father always did whatever he wanted and my mother hated it. They fought constantly. In his mid fifties he had a midlife crisis and ran up a lot of debt. Mama managed to get him declared mentally unstable and put in a mental hospital where they did electroshock treatments on him. When he finally came home he was just an empty shell of the man he had been before. To me it seemed like they had burned his mind out.

            He never did truly recover. His physical health continually went down hill. When he began to need more care, she told him she was going to put him in a nursing home. She told me as well and I was horrified, knowing how they both felt about them. At that time in my life, I was married to a drinking alcoholic narc with a two year old, a one year old and pregnant, with no extra room in my house. I was wracking my brain trying to come up with a different solution, but within 2 days, he blew his head off with a deer rifle.

            I think it was a control issue. He knew if he went into a nursing home, he’d never come out, he’d have no control over his life in any way. He’d always said that he’d shoot himself before he ever went into a nursing home and he did.

            I always wondered if Mama planned it that way. Money and property were very important to her. Nursing homes are expensive. If she’d put him in one and he’d lived very long, they would have taken all the money she had and possibly the house and farm. That would have destroyed her.

            I remember at his funeral she said something snarky to me and I just looked at her with no emotion and said, “You killed him. You just have well have pulled the trigger yourself. You better save up your money so you can hire someone to take care of you when your health fails. All I’ll ever do for you is buy you a gun.”

            Of course that’s not what I did. She ended up taking 10 years to die from Alzheimer’s and my daughter and I always cared for her, but I sure meant it at the time and she believed me. Of course it wouldn’t have worked with her, anyway. If I’d given her a gun, she’d have probably shot me with it! 😀

            I know two other narcs that suicided with a gun. In their cases I think it was more impulsive. They were both in a very bad spot emotionally, high on drugs, with a loaded gun ready.

          3. Diva says:

            Windstorm2……Your post to Jenna gave me the chills. It is no wonder that you are the wisest soul on this blog and you are so thoughtful and forgiving in your demeanour to everyone here……you have been through and witnessed so much……and somehow, against all of the odds, come out the other side with your dignity and grace intact. I would be honoured to have you sat on the bench next to mine (I am being respectful of your need for space) and on this occasion…….I feel sure that I won’t need to be tied to it!!!!!……Diva

          4. Windstorm2 says:

            Thank you! I think wisdom is the culmination of all the lessons life had to beat into us over the years. All of us who live for years with narcs have been beaten by so many of those life lessons, it’s no wonder if we end up with wisdom when we’re old!

            If I ever encountered Jenna’s bench and you were sitting on it, I’d try to sit with you for awhile also – probably not for hours though! 😀

            I’m sitting outside right now under the most beautiful deep blue sky above a gauzy blanket of snowy cirrocumulus clouds. It is very magical – with bird song in the trees and and a gentle breeze ruffling my prayer flags. Be the perfect spot for that bench….

          5. Diva says:

            Hey Windstorm2…..that sounds like a plan and wherever you currently are in your description sounds wonderful to me……I feel that I should warn you that my grace and dignity is not as intact as yours is…….but I am working on it!!!!!!……..Diva

          6. jenna says:


            I am so sorry ur mother told ur father she would put him in a nursing home, knowing that he greatly fears it, which ultimately led to his taking of his own life. Her actions were reprehensible. Yet when she needed care, u provided it for her despite ur anger. My, u r definitely strong.

            W the other 2 narcs, it seemis like the loaded gun was in the wrong hands. Though it doesn’t appear as if it will happen anytime soon, i pray for gun control laws. Stict rules should be implemented on gun storage (eg. in a locked cabinet), with bullets stored separately, background mental assessments, and yearly mental evaluations of gun owners. I believe sweden has something like this in effect, and it is working v well.

            Thank u windstorm for ur reply.

      4. Tappan Zee says:

        WS2. Ditto. It’s a shitload of shame to shovel out of. All while building a logic boat to sail away. Hard in the midst of this shit storm (it ain’t just wind:) to piece by piece rifle through the rubble. AND grow, heal, etc at the same time. I am not a fan of clinical terms. Bc, well, they sound too clinical and read: sterile. But this must be what ptsd is. Living and reliving the shitstorm. When there isn’t one. Only in my mental discovery process.

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          Tappan Zee
          It is a long road and a slow process, but as long as we keep moving forward, it will keep getting better and easier.

    3. Merripen says:

      Such tiny shoulders to bear such a weight. Your words just made me cry. I don’t know what to say to help you let go of that burden. I don’t have the knowledge, myself, but I’m on the same road as you. Guilt is one of the first emotions you were made to carry, so there’s a groove across your shoulders from it, now. But I believe with self-love, knowledge and a directed intent, we can lighten what we carry. I just know this, somehow. We are beings of flux. We are not brittle, despite what we’ve been told and how we’ve been treated. We are enlightenment in-progress. There are a lot of us on this journey, here.

  19. Merripen says:

    One of the narcissist’s greatest driving fears is shame. It is overwhelming to them. They feel it will destroy everything they are and everything they have, so they will do whatever is necessary to keep it at bay. A goodly part of the facade’s construction is the illusion of their own perfection (we must carry it, too, during the golden period). They cannot risk opening the door of shame or judgement. It would annihilate them. Unfortunately, this denies them access to most other aspects of our humanity which lie behind that same door, empathy included.

    1. E. B. says:

      Merripen, your comment reminded me of my narcissistic parents. They chose to feel superior in order to hide their shame.

      1. Merripen says:

        At such a cost, E.B. And we born, not asked, right? The reverberations are felt thru generations, I swear. And it seems like if this treatment doesn’t make the child counter-dependent, then they still might become co-dependent. If this epidemic is not abated, there won’t be any normals left to procreate.

  20. SuperXena says:

    …the Narcissist’ shame when/if not succeeding, of losing control…

  21. K says:

    the narcissist feels shame/shameful (deserving shame) and their behavior is shameless at the same time. The narcissist is the epitome of the juxtaposition: push/pull, black/white, hot/cold, Madonna/whore.

    1. Merripen says:

      And the realization of that dichotomy is like the clarion call for our enlightenment, isn’t it, K? Everything just starts to snick into place after this discovery. Plus, that duality allows HG’s writing skills full reign. I enjoy his adeptness at extracting every ounce from that thin fulcrum in his essays. He gets to be lyrical and convey his message at the same time. I especially like it when he blurs which side of the mirror is ours and which is his. Are we both? We shouldn’t have to wonder, but he challenges us to stand in his shoes and as empaths we do it and we feel the fluttering pull of their plight.

      1. K says:

        Exactly, HG invites us to take a peek into his looking glass, which reflects his twisted mirror image. The simulacra is then detailed in his writing with exquisite artistry, which captures the empath/narcissistic dichotomy like no other before him. Who is who in this joust? These two very diametrically opposed forces that both contradict and complement each other with such violence and passion, that it destroys the very thing the union lusts for. Completion and love. Wonder, I most certainly do. As an empath I stand in his shoes and see with such clarity that I am stunned. The light is in the darkness and that is where all our answers lie.

        1. Merripen says:

          Beautifully written. It’s so nice to come home from the banal exactitude of work and enjoy the passionately written expressions in this community. ahhhh…..


    2. K says:

      My older sister is an empath and she moved to Las Vegas to get away from all the boundary violating family narcs. She is safely ensconced in New Mexico now, however, she gets attacked by my narc sister though Facebook. Go figure!?

      1. Windstorm2 says:

        Yeah. It was very hard on me when my daughter moved to Kansas. She was sick of them just coming in her house unannounced and taking over the food, tv, etc. My son had his dad move in with him after his heart surgery and then just never leave. My exhusband’s like a force of nature – he just takes over without really any thought. Also his narc brothers would just come and go as they pleased. As soon as my son graduated he moved out of state, too.

  22. narc affair says:

    Narcissists core is shame based and the tragedy is the person who should be ashamed is the very one that caused that shame…the abuser. The cycle continues on.

    1. K says:

      narc affair
      Sometimes I want to yell at all the parents for all the horrific abuse they inflicted on their children! They are is despicable!

      1. narc affair says:

        Hi K…i feel the same way angry at how these parents can do this and create narcissists until i remember its a repeated cycle and more often than not they too were narc victims as children. Its taken me a lot to understand and see this and its helped me forgive my mother who keeps devaluing me and trying to do the same to my children. I forgive her bc its a disorder but i protect my children. An example of this was this past weekend. Shes been coddling my son massaging his back and rubbing his arms in front of my daughter. So i said to her youll have to do the same for your granddaughter. As suspected she did it even more. Shes managed to tear her family apart yet still continues triangulating. No healthy person could derive any pleasure from doing this to people and i see shes disordered and dysfunctional. When the kids are a bit older ill sit down and explain to them about her narcissism. Ill do it in a way they can still love their grandma but also understand why things have been so messed up.
        Anger has been replaced by pity and understanding. Victims get terribly abused but the narcissists are the true losers in life bc they remain stuck in their disorder.

      2. K says:

        narc affair
        You are absolutely correct. It is frustrating to even try and wrap my head around it. I know (in my head) they were victims and it kills me
        (my heart) that they create more victims. The logic helps me focus but the emotion breaks my heart. Our children need to be protected from their own grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins. I am minimal contact with my birth family. It is amazing to see how our parents destroyed their own families and never owned it. The dysfunction is mind-boggling. My children are kinder than I; they feel bad for the family narcs, but want nothing to do with them, either. When my mother visits I remain as patient as possible and ignore her gas lighting. The more time I spend here, the better I get with the dynamic and the complexities that accompany it. Slowly, my anger is being replaced by understanding, and they truly are stuck in an endless cycle. It is sad to see it.

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          Yeah, but the flip side can be uplifting. My oldest (who’s a narc) likes to say that whenever he thinks of his failings as a father, he just remembers that he’s a better father than his father was and his father was a better father than his father was and HIS father was a better father than HIS father was. So looked at in that perspective, he’s really doing pretty good! He’s beating out all the fathers in the family for at least three generations! And we all have to agree with him.

          1. Kimi says:


            I am amazed at the self-awareness in your family! It appears you all are making the best of a dysfunctional family situation. Lemonade out of lemons and all that…

            I believe I’m the only aware Empath in a family of possibly 3 generations of Narcs, and only newly aware at age 55! I do note that I am also surrounded by loving family Empaths. Do you see the same balance of Narcs and Empaths in your family?

            I found your conversation with Merripen and K on the dichotomy of personalities and resulting balance in relationships between Narcs and Empaths to be quite thought-provoking!

          2. Windstorm2 says:

            My own family is as clueless as anyone’s. The only aware empaths I know of were my grandmother and myself. Everyone else is basically a narc or acts as narclike as possible to keep from being picked on.

            It is my exhusband’s family that has all the awareness. I feel that’s because they tend to be alcoholics and they learned about narcissism in AA and AlAnon. There are many aware empaths in this family. Basically everyone knows what everyone else is, although there are some who go thru periods of denial. I was very fortunate to marry into this family and my mil and fil taught me and my children all about narcissism, alcoholism and how to deal with them.

            Glad you found some of my comments thought-provoking. Also glad you have many loving empaths in your family.

      3. K says:

        Yes, there is often a flip side to things and I have learned that especially after being here on this blog. Does your son live near you?

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          Yes. Both my narc sons only live about 35-40 miles away. It was just the two empaths that moved out of state – particularly to get away from the family narcs and their total lack of boundaries. Forty miles was far enough for me to move to maintain my own boundaries.

      4. K says:

        What is your family narc/empath ratio? There are so many narcs in my family and I think I may have 2 possible empaths, but that is it. My sister and I are outnumbered.

      5. Kimi says:


        My Sister, also an Empath (our Dad was a Narc) has been my strongest supporter as I have been hers. We traveled similar paths. I’m glad you have your sister, as well!

        I’ve only just begun to work out my family dynamics, having learned of Narcissistic Personality Disorder this year.

        3 generations of my father’s family:
        2, possibly 3 Narcs
        4, possibly 5 Empaths
        Acquired by marriage, 2 Narcs and 2 Empaths & 1 Bi-polar Disorder

        1. K says:

          Thanks Kimi, it is really interesting to learn about how the narcissistic dynamic plays out in families and I find the impact of genetics and environment quite fascinating. My empath sister is the only normal member of my family and I am very lucky to have her. Like you, NPD presents in 3 generations of my family.

        2. jenna says:

          Kimi, u learned abt npd this yr. B4 that, did u ‘feel’ there was something not quite right abt the family members u now label as narcs? If u’ve answered this b4 and i missed it, u can just direct me to that post.
          In the past few months i have started to think my dad is a narc. Just this wk, i am also thinking my sister is a narc! It would explain her total lack of empathy for me. But she has empathy for her kids so i’m not sure. She has a temper too. When she found out that i’m going thru a difficult time in my life, she told me she needs ‘space’ frm me instead of being there for me. 😟

          1. Kimi says:


            I never questioned the behavior of my family. I simply took note and adapted, in order to secure self-preservation. My family was all I knew and “normal” to me.

            I’ve been engaged in self-examination since my encounter with a blatant Narc at the end of last year. I asked myself why I repeatedly chose these type of men, many of them Narcs and it all lead back to my relationship with my father, a Narc. HG has helped me sort out the Narcs in my life through consultations. I currently find myself asking “now what?” My relationships with Narcs are all I’ve ever known, attracted and been attracted to. It’s so disheartening, especially considering my age (50’s).

            I can relate to the horror of realizing primary family members may be Narcs, possibly your father and sister. It does seem rather “Narcy” that your sister would withdraw when you are in need. Also, you appear so very loving and empathetic. I now equate children of Narcissistic abuse to develop as either very empathetic or Narcissistic. I’m not sure if that is a false correlation or not?

            I believe I’ve read that you’ve consulted HG. I would encourage you to make lists of your father’s and sister’s behavior and consult again with him. I let my lists brew for several days, adding more information. I found HG’s confirmation and insights to be very cathartic!

            HG, what is your opinion on the above? Does Narcissistic abuse in childhood usually result in the formation of Empaths and Narcs? Do Normals survive the abuse?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I do not believe that abuse is required to create an empathic individual. A combination of abuse and genetic predisposition may create a narcissist or an empath, but an empath can arise without the abuse.

          3. Windstorm2 says:

            I completely agree with that. You can see the tendency towards empathy or narcissism even in babies who have never encountered any type of abuse. I’ve never really understood normals. They seem to lean whichever way the wind blows. Around narcs, they may act very narclike to avoid abuse, but still show empathy on other occasions.

            I know I had no choice in being an empath. I was one from my earliest memories. Certainly no amount of abuse could turn me into a narc. I think it’s more like color blindness. You either can see the colors or you can’t. You either have empathy and the full spectrum of emotions or you don’t. Where the abuse plays a role is in how you learn to deal and cope with it.

          4. jenna says:

            Kimi, since ur dad is a narc, it certainly explains why u choose narcs. It is almost subconscious, since that is what u know, that is what u r used to, and u seek approval frm men w such traits.

            I like ur idea of making a list of my dad and sis’s behavior and consulting Hg. It will put the matter to rest and then i will know how to behave w them in the future.

            When my sister said she needed space frm me, i cried for hrs (though we are long distance, i haven’t seen her in over a yr, we never speak on the phone because she says she doesn’t have time due to her busy schedule, but i do text her a few times per month). What more space can she need?!

            I think hg will be the best judge. Hg, u can expect more whining frm me soon, this time not abt ex narc but abt my family. 😅

          5. Windstorm2 says:

            When I first started reading here on the blog, I was surprised at how few people seemed to have narcs in their families. Then over time I’ve come to believe most of us do, in fact many are the children of narcs and just never realized it. The narcs we’ve been romantically involved with were not anomalies. We were many of us raised to be narc fuel and attracted to narcs. Just most of us never recognized it.

  23. Kimi says:

    Where is Clarece? I miss her strong spirit and sweet presence!

    1. gabbanzobean says:

      Me too. She found me on Instagram but I miss her here too!

    2. K says:

      Ditto, Kimi!

    3. Windstorm2 says:

      Me, too. I was worrying about her this morning. She last posted right before her birthday and was worrying about a bday hoover. I hope she’s ok.

      1. gabbanzobean says:

        Windstorm….these damn narcs and their birthday Hoovers!!! Why is it always about a birthday Hoover? Do they have like, a narc phonebook with everyone’s birthday in it or some shit? I speak from experience as I have always been Hoovered on my birthday.

  24. analise13 says:

    Shame is at the core of most behaviour.

    Shame created by others and worn by the wrong party.

    HG, can you divulge the greatest shame you were made to “emotionally” wear?

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. analise13 says:

        That will be a grand revelation. Thank you HG.

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