This Time It Will Work


When you first come into my sights, when you appear between those crosshairs and I sense your empathic qualities, your adherence to the traits which make you so attractive to me, I am filled with optimism. I have spoken on many occasions about my need to extract fuel on a daily basis. This ritual necessitates the acquisition of someone who will be my primary source and then a whole host of secondary and tertiary sources who are drawn from friends, family, strangers, colleagues and so forth. It is a ceaseless task but one which I am built for, one I have been designed for and one which I will always apply myself to. I prefer to conserve my energies and that is why I live in hope that this time the person that I have targeted will be the one who will not let me down. On this occasion I have found the person who will be my primary source so that I never have to embark on the devaluation of this person because they have failed in their obligation to provide me with fuel. Many people may regard me as prejudicial person and it is true that I pre-judge people, but only ever do so on the basis of satisfactory evidence. I look for the necessary traits in how you interact with others, the things that you say and what you do. I watch carefully before I make my move. When I see the very things which I cherish and require for the purposes of gathering fuel, I experience an elation. There is excitement and anticipation. Mostly it is because of the fuel which I hope to gather from you, that delicious and golden fuel which super charges me, invigorates me and provides me with the power to sail through life charming and attracting. However, my excitement is not all based on the anticipation of tasting your fuel. No, a significant part of my anticipation is borne out of the fact that you might just be the one. You could be that person who does not let me down. You could be the one who finally provides me with such sweet fuel that I never have to go elsewhere for a primary supply. I cannot give up my supplementary sources as they are a reserve and a contingency for when I am not able to draw my main fuel from you as my primary source. This is not because I have cast you aside or because you have committed that treacherous act of escaping me and instigating no contact. Not at all. The reserve is required because owing to various factors I cannot be by your side every hour of day or in some form of contact with you to this extent. This means that much as I delight in your sweet, sweet fuel, I am forced to obtain it elsewhere and this is from those supplementary sources. It is you however that I still look to for the best fuel. You who I look to in order to provide me with the most fuel and to do so with comforting regularity. I want this fuel from just one primary source. You seem to think that I revel in the abuse that I dole out when I devalue my primary source victim, but I do not. It may look that way, a side effect of the power that courses through me as I drink deep of that negative fuel but in truth I would much rather never have to go down that route. I would prefer that you continue to pump out that positive fuel to such an extent that it always remains satisfactory for me. I want you to be the one that is always there, reliable, dependable and magnificent in the production of your fuel. You would benefit too. There would be no awful abuse as devaluation takes place. There would be no mystifying discard (mystifying to you at least – it makes perfect sense to me) and then I would not even have to go to the trouble of applying various types of hoover in order to bring you back to me. Imagine avoiding all of that and remaining in the glorious golden period of seduction the whole time? I know how much you love that. I have seen it in your eyes, I have seen you speak of it and of course I have seen how hard you have fought at times to recover it. You adore and worship the golden period and you can have that. You can have that all the time. All I ask of you is to keep providing me with that fuel at the potency and level that is appropriate and demanded. It cannot be too difficult for you can it? You once did it. You provided it brilliantly but then you let me down by not providing the quality I was used to. You diminished the frequency and became unreliable, thus hurting me and that could not be countenanced. You had to be hurt in return. There was no hope for any other way. Imagine being able to avoid bringing all that horror on yourself as you keep doing what is necessary. You keep giving me my fuel at the prescribed level and in return you get to stay in the golden period forever. This is what I hope for too and you think that I am selfish. Not at all. We both win. You have the golden period and I have the golden fuel. This is what I hope for each time a new target presents itself and I begin my work to consider moving to the seduction of this target. I am filled with hope, I am filled with optimism that this time, just for once, you will keep on doing what I need and you will not let me down. No matter how many times this has happened in the past. No matter how many times I have been betrayed and hurt by the treasonable conduct of those who said, so many times, that they loved me and they always would, I have always continued to believe in the power and capacity that the next target may just be the one. I am not a bad person for believing in that way am I? I just want to find the right one for me. Just like you do.

You want to find the person that you will love for the rest of your life, I want to find the person whose fuel I will love for the rest of my life. Surely you can understand and appreciate that? Surely you must accept that such a notion is noble? Surely you understand why I always think that you might be the one. This time.

92 thoughts on “This Time It Will Work

  1. Valkyrie says:

    Groundhog day

  2. Sniglet says:

    “It cannot be too difficult for you can it?” This time it will surely work, but, don’t be an incompetent twat, the onus is on you, give me my fuel and you get the golden epoch. Always a collateral demand. Ha.

    1. K says:

      Quid pro quo.

  3. Windstorm2 says:

    I just had a narc encounter I wanted to share. Took my car into a mechanic about an hours drive away today (city where my exhusband works). They ended up having to keep her until Monday so I was stranded. Called my exhusband and he left work to come get me, and spend two hours of his workday driving me home.

    He was cheery and talkative but seemed nervous every so often and dropped little hints of things he needed to be doing at work today. Of course I felt worried and guilty and incredibly grateful. Right before he dropped me off at home he mentioned that he hadn’t signed up for his insurance yet (tomorrow is the last day for all state employees to sign up or they lose their health insurance). He said that he’d planned to do that today in his extra time at work… Of course I knew he had burned that time taking me home – now I’m feeling really worried and guilty! When I said, “Be sure to do your insurance as soon as you get back to work!” He responded, “Afraid that ship has sailed.”

    As he was driving away I realized how he had played me! All his lieutenants in his office would never let his insurance lapse! They’d get online and sign him up themselves first! Thinking back I realized he’d played me like a drum the entire car ride and I had gushed with fuel in several different ways. Never looking for pity like a midranger, but oh so subtlety! He was surely still enjoying thought fuel on his way back to work! It totally made me break out laughing!!

    Ah, the narc games! That’s why we still get along so well after 44 years! I got a big favor from him and he got to revel in his cleverness and soak up the fuel. No one got hurt, since I understand what happened and that it was just a game. Win-win for both of us! 😄

    1. Windstorm2 says:

      Follow up:
      He just called me to tell me he was online doing his insurance and was making me his beneficiary if he died ($100,000), because “you’d be the best one to handle my funeral and getting me buried.” He got my address, and important details for the insurance. When I asked if he wanted me to split whatever was left between me and the kids, he said, “No you can keep all of it yourself.”
      – So, still part of the game? Or reality? Has me laughing again! No way to know unless he dies before me! You have to admit – it keeps life interesting! You just have to never really believe anything they say or it would drive you crazy. Everything is all one big game to them.

      1. E. B. says:

        Hi Windstorm,

        Your ex does not need anyone to take care of his funeral arrangements. Funeral companies will do that for him, if your ex plans his funeral in advance. The funeral company only needs a limited power of attorney for funeral arrangements on their behalf. Your ex will be informed about the costs and payment.

        Supposing that what he said about the insurance is true, what else does he wants from you, apart from the funeral arrangements when he gets old and he is not able to make his own decisions or take care of himself? Now that he has your address and other important details, I would be careful if he asks you to sign any kind of document.

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          Thank you for your concern, but he’s just playing games. As long as I understand that, then there is no danger from him. He has always known where I live – he comes up here all the time. There are any number of ways he could find my mailing address, if he were so inclined. I’ve even given him a key to my mailbox so he can get my mail when I’m in Kansas. He asked for my phone number – which I gave him – but it’s been the same number for 20 years and he’s always had it. It’s all just a game.

          My exhusband is a very lazy man who derives considerable fuel and amusement by getting others to do all the little things he has no interest in doing. He would never make his own funeral arrangements in advance. That would require actual time and effort and deprive him of the thought fuel he gets from thinking of the inconvenience and chaos his death would cause the rest of us.

          There are so many ways he could get thought fuel from this. He’s currently living in his sisters basement. She cooks, cleans and takes care of him. Putting me in charge of his funeral may be a triangulation with her, since she probably thinks she will do it. He has already assigned our daughter to be the one to make health decisions for him if he becomes unable to. He may be thinking of the two of us butting heads if she thinks she should make the funeral decisions. Having his exwife front and center making his funeral decisions will confuse lots of people and probably tick off his long time lieutenants who would much rather it be my funeral. And if it was all a lie and he did not actually make me his beneficiary, then he’s tricked me once again and will win another round even after his death. All amusement for him and part of the game.

          But also he’s very intelligent. He knows his sister is a geyser empath who will come apart into an emotional, tear-filled mess when he dies. Our daughter has 4 preschool children and lives in another state and will have enough on her plate just getting everyone to the funeral and dealing with her own grief. He knows I will stay calm and rational and can be depended on to see that everything gets done properly with no further effort on his part.

          It’s actually very typical behavior for him- both logical and manipulative, doing the unexpected in a way that lets him feel clever. He’s always excelled at games.

      2. E. B. says:


        It is good to know that your ex will be willing to help you without becoming a threat. If he is only playing silly games and feels he is clever, so let him feel he wins.
        The narcissists and Normals I know are not like your ex at all. Even if I asked them to do me a small favour and they agreed, they would make me pay by taking advantage of the situation or by telling other people that I took advantage of them. This is one of the reasons why I rarely ask for help. I prefer to handle things on my own.

        As you said, people will be surprised when they learn that his ex wife was the one in charge of making the funeral arrangements. He is already getting Thought Fuel from his “upcoming funeral” 🙂

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          My relationship with my exhusband is always give and take. I do things for him, he does things for me. It took several years of separating myself and refusing to accept abuse before we reached this state. I have value to him and he restrains himself from crossing my line and me distancing myself from him. I know his needs and am willing to be accommodating as long as he does the same. I realize we are very fortunate to have reached a state of relative harmony.

          1. E. B. says:


            It is remarkable that your ex-husband was able to put aside unhealthy behaviour and has learnt to respect your boundaries. Both of you have succeeded in maintaining a civil relationship after divorce and you can count on each other. This is not only important to you and your ex-husband but also to the rest of your family. It makes life easier for all of you. Congratulations! You must have had a lot to do with it and also his willingness to change.

            I cannot understand why most narcissists prefer to see those they devalue as foes, why they push those who are trustworthy and will not take advantage of them away until people eventually cut off contact with them, rather than having a respectful relationship and having them on their side. My in-laws, including three NPD/BPD malignant women, tried to ruin my relationship with my husband from the very beginning but I cut off contact with them about a year and a half after getting married. Fortunately my husband had a mind of his own and they did not succeed. However, it was painful for me when my siblings suddenly began to see me as their enemy and to be the recipient of all their hate for no reason. I felt it and it was surreal. It took me years to get over it because we used to have a good relationship and I used to work together with one of them. They married MRNs. Their partners have been ripping them off during all these years (the local IRS is a reliable source of information) and they have isolated them from me but I am supposed to be the evil one.

  4. Insatiable Learner says:

    Thank you, HG! You are absolutely right as always! I know I don’t need to be concerned. Hard to resist trying to figure things out though!

    1. HG Tudor says:


  5. Just Me says:

    My two cents, the narcissist feels shame, feels he is unlovable… thank you Mom and Dad, right? Consciously or subconsciously, they resent us for the very fact that we love someone so flawed. That is, loving them deserves to be punished. The need to find or fabricate fault in us is to justify it all.

  6. Insatiable Learner says:

    HG, do you think a narc can give a respite period if devaluation has begun or prolong the golden period if devaluation has not yet begun to his girlfriend in connection with her having his baby he has always wanted but thought he could never father?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The child may be viewed as a residual benefit and therefore this conceivably may cause a Respite Period. Of course we can also maintain a residual benefit (or several) whilst in devaluation.

      1. Insatiable Learner says:

        Thanks so much, HG! I appreciate your prompt response and valuable insight! The narc appears to be painting her white because he talks about being concerned about her feelings and trying to reassure her of their relationship. The ex is still being painted black and evil. This tells me the girlfriend is enjoying the golden period or respite. Do you think I am analyzing the situation correctly?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are but you do not need to concern yourself with how he is regarding these people, this is your emotional thinking causing you to remain invested in the narcissist. You do not need to.

  7. Nicoleta says:

    I am curious, could it be that the devaluation period started once I opened a conversation about how we are not good match?

    It is a while but I am still confused and curious, about what exactly caused the switch.

    I told him that I think we are not a good match as we want different things in life.However he replied with > How am I not good enough? How am I not qualified for you? ..

    after that he started lying that he has cancer, of course I found out it was a lie a month later. I was desperately trying to help him and take care of him while “sick”… and trying to figure out what is wrong while he was saying ” I don’t know whats wrong, I am sick and depressed” while he was out partying and enjoying life…

    and I asked him directly if the reason for his behaviour is me saying that we are not a good match, he said no every time. Even during the so-called devaluation, as he was neither sick nor depressed, he kept saying I am the woman every man wishes for, but he is just sick and needs some time.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      This would need to be placed into context Nicoleta in terms of the nature of your relationship so far, how long you have been seeing one another, whether he is in an intimate relationship with someone else, whether you are, what your role in the fuel matrix is, what type of narcissist he is.

      1. Nicoleta says:

        Thank you for your reply HG! I was his girlfriend ‘love of his life, soulmate’ for 2 months.

        I was in a relationship only with him, he however I will never know.. although he swore he didn’t do anything and texted me every minute. Half of the time we were long distance so i will never know the full truth.

        I think he is a victim as he would always play the victim, with his childhood trauma, parents, failures, depression and so on. My need to help and fix took over. although his constant whining made me loose any respect for him.

        So when I tried to end it, and say that we want different things, after 2 months ,he kept me entangled, convinced me to stay. But started to gaslight me with his fake cancer and depression… I don’t understand why any of that is necessary, but OK, I think he wanted to end it with me on his terms, and not let me break up with him first on my terms. Could that be a reasonable explanation?

        (I hate myself for trying to figure this out, when it obviously will never make sense to me from my perspective.. I am just a very rational person and want to understand the situation better so I can logically understand it from his perspective it and let it go.

        Thank you for your posts and replies!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yes, he did not want to lose control by allowing you to exert control, as that wounds him considerably.

    2. Tappan Zee says:

      My nex was sick, dying and depressed too. Except when he wasn’t. Bars. Concerts (wish you were here) trips (miss you) flitting hither and yon. Sweet ride. Hot clothes. Fetch hair. White teeth. Tanned. Oh boom. There it is, But The Cancer, whole bit. Blah. Which doesn’t fit the somatic aspect but does fit the facade. I guess. Whatever. It’s all criticism. To them. Insult & injury. Smile. Frown. Flat line. It will all ignite fury. Wait for it… I mean don’t. But ya back then. Shit show.

  8. Noname says:

    The concept of “one” reminds me how the thermoregulatory control center works in hypothalamus. It has the group of neurons – “set point”. They set a certain parameter of body temperature and then they compare it with an actual situation (reality). If something doesn’t accord to the “set point” settings, the organism corrects the body temperature (increases the heat production, decreases the heat loss, etc.).

    The Narc’s “one” is something like that. “She” is a “set point” – perfect, immaculate, ideal. Narc compares his real women with “her” and, of course, no one could be so perfect like “she” is.

    When I talked about it with my dear narc-cousin, I asked him “What if you correct your “set point” and make “her” more real and less perfect in some way?”.
    He said “No, I have to have the best woman. Goddess”.
    “Because I’m a God and I don’t want less than that”…

    THIS. This is the core problem of Narcissist. God. God, who is “married” to his internal Goddess. The external “mortal” women are absolutely irrevelant. He has his “one” already.

    But. The problem is that that “one” is an enemy. “She” gradually destroys the Narc’s life. “She” does it perfectly, immaculately and ideally.

    Finally, “God” falls and that means he never been an one… He was just a mortal person, who was lost in his illusions…


    1. Windstorm2 says:

      So basically the problem is the narc is trying to maintain the delusion that he is a god – a Superman – and as long as he refuses to see reality, he can never find what he seems, since that is a delusion as well. I think that sums it up pretty well.

      1. Noname says:

        Exactly, Windstorm!

        That delusion continues untill the Narc gains a lot of strength to say the truth to HIMSELF and then ACCEPTS himself as he is.

        Any school of Narc can do it, but, sometimes, it is pretty dangerous to do it for Lessers. They don’t have any talents and skills to maintain their self-esteem. They slip into heavy depression and start to live the active self-destructive life (alcohol, narcotics, etc.).

        Mid-Ranges and Greaters can do it relatively easy. In most cases, they have many unique talents and skills and can continue to live their lives normally. In that case, people say “Hmm… I don’t know what, but something is changed in you… You became more calm, more serene, less extreme… Maybe it is an age…”. No, not age. It is the sign of self-acceptance. The first step to internal harmony. The first spep to “unblock” their own fuel channels.

        Truth. The key point. So easy. So hard.

    2. J says:

      @Noname: You say Ns CAN say it to themselves. We are taught that this is impossible. Have you seen it? How did it come about? Through therapy? What modality? I admit I am highly skeptical that change could ever happen… like most of us, I have trouble believing this, partly as a self-protective mechanism and partly because in my experience I have never seen the slightest hint that it is possible. Yet… I am truly desperate to believe that one of Ns could know some peace before he dies…

      1. Noname says:

        I don’t want to give a false hope, but yes, some of them can do it ONLY if they really want it, ONLY if they are brave enough to put themselves into “hell of truth”.

        The more malignant they are, the less possible the “meeting with a truth”.

        The more “layers” they have, the less possible the “meeting”.

        The earlier they manifest with a Narc’s behavior, the less possible the “meeting”.

        I wrote the comment about Ted Bundy recently. He was a very high functioning Psychopath, with very high level of intellect and awareness, but despite on it, he was incurable.

        He manifested his psychopatic traits at early childhood (that confirms the genetic origin – there is a version that he was a child of incest between his Narc grandfather and his mother – rape), he showed the zoosadistic streaks, he started to rape and kill women pretty early (there is a version that he killed his first victim when he was 14), he showed the inconsistency (he constantly changed jobs, universities, he didn’t finish his education despite on his brightness, he couldn’t maintain the stable friendship and relationship), and he couldn’t control his mental disturbance at all. Nothing could help him. No one could help him. He was a lost case.

        The Narcs are full of fears and distrust, and it prevents to get the positive results during treatment (in most common cases they are insignificant). Albeit, the scientific world reports (very cautiously) about isolated, but positive results.

        Russians say “The hope is a cruel poet”. We all are the creators of our happiness and unhappiness. If they are satisfied with their lives, so be it. Just let them go and live your own life. That’s my opinion.

  9. E. B. says:

    In your article 5 Howling Wildernesses -No. 2 Nothing is ever good enough, you explain that the Empath gives more and more of herself and when she thinks she has got there, the bar is raised higher so the narcissist’s hole can never be filled, which is true.
    The only one who should have validated the narcissist’s own existence but never did and never will is his mother.

    As for the Empath, if she feels comfortable in a relationship with a narcissist, especially during the Golden Period, she must have her own problems too. Those with a healthy self-esteem will feel uncomfortable with it. Being ***bombarded*** with a narcissist’s attention can be very unpleasant. This happens at the very beginning of the relationship, it does not go unnoticed. I have understood that not all narcissists do it and there is Bronze Period too but many of them provide the Golden Period.
    Empaths will never find in their partners what their mothers did not give them: validation of being loveable and good enough. They will have to work on restoring their self-worth.

    IMO, narcissists and empaths are attracted to each other because *both of them* are looking for (different kinds of) validation, which is what they find at the beginning of the relationship during the Golden Period.

  10. Twilight says:

    I believe it can work, it is a choice and understanding on both sides.

  11. Erin says:

    I think one of the main reasons it DOES’T work out (and the positive fuel turns stale/the fuel stops working) is that the positive fuel is in the form of love/adoration; Narcs want/need said love but they never present their true selves, projecting a false image for the empath to love instead. After a while, the fact that the empath doesn’t actually love them, but just a projection, might begin to erode/annoy the narc, and so the positive fuel stops working.
    The love directed at a facade can never be as satisfying as that given to the true self, with all its scars and abominations. It’s sad because narcs never show their true selves, and until they do they will never be truly loved…Hence the cycle continues…

    I might be terribly misguided, but it makes sense to me.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Interesting view but remember the vast majority of narcissists do not know it is a ‘projection’ or more accurately a construct.

      1. Windstorm2 says:

        I see your point, HG. The handful of narc/empath relationships that have lasted all involved selfaware narcs.

      2. Windstorm2 says:

        But I still thin Erin could be correct for a lot of narc/empath relationships. The narcs who don’t know what they are could still be picking up subconsciously that they are not loved for their actual selves.

      3. Erin says:

        Agreed, HG, but I am thinking about some of the things you said in other posts: the lesser and mid don’t KNOW what they are, but on a subconscious level they are aware of certain aspects and needs, a greater is more aware than the others. Now, maybe in the same manner they become annoyed, although they don’t know why, at not being loved for themselves but for their façade, with varying degrees of self-awareness, as windstorm said.

        It is also a reason why I have more hope for a Greater ever managing to heal, even just a little: that self-awareness might help one be interested in the idea of being loved as their true self (also because they deserve love, don’t they?); that could lead to trying to be open and honest about who and what they are to someone (ideally someone accepting and emotionally stable enough to handle it);
        If they find someone who can love them, not the construct, that might help heal some of the wounds and potentially lead to buried emotions of love and happiness, even in the smallest degree, being gradually released from their prison.
        I do not expect a Mid or Lesser to ever be able to reach that goal: such aspirations surely must be only within the grasp of the highest, most aware of Greaters.

    2. Windstorm2 says:

      Erin. That makes sense to me. I think you have a very good point. Not only does the empath never really love the narc (just his facade), but as the facade begins to slip and she is so upset at how he acts, it has to be very apparent to him that she doesn’t actually love him. After all, he has built the entire relationship on an illusion.

      I think that’s why some narc/empath relationships can and do endure. There is not that illusion. The narc knows and admits what he is and the empath is not deceived. She loves and values him for his actual self, warts and all. She learns how to protect herself from the inevitable abuse of being with a person with no empathy and he learns over time how to curb his hurtful behavior so as not to push her over the edge. Understanding that she actually cares for him – not his facade – he doesn’t discard her and chase a string of other women looking for that perfect love. He finds other ways to get fresh and different “flavors” of fuel.

      1. Erin says:

        Windstorm, are you in such a relationship?

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          At first I was going to say no, because my 44 yr relationship with my exhusband was never like that (no golden period, no illusions, always knew what he was), but I’ve had so many narc relationships that some of them started out that way – my parents for example.

          Also the one I call my Moron in Munich. I had only met him once 40 years ago and all our subsequent relationship has been long distance. I knew he had no empathy almost from the start from reading his letters, but I couldn’t definitely identify him as a narc until I heard his voice over the phone 2 years ago. I rarely look people in the eye, but I’ve learned how to spot narcs from their intonation and their verbal responses. Insufferable arrogance comes thru loud and clear. He would try to feign love and passion, but no one that arrogant loves anyone except himself.

          While I have always loved my husband as a family member, and still do. There was always zero passion in our relationship, so I can only try to imagine what it would be like to miss the passion, great sex, etc. that so many people here describe. To be honest, I don’t think I’m capable of imagining something so far beyond my own experiences.

          When I said I thought we had a lot in common, I meant in how we think and perceive the world around us. You seem to be a very empathic, forgiving person who has a good grasp on who she is inside. I wondered if you were a spiritual person, maybe interested in various types of spirituality, had children, maybe were in a giving sort of occupation, interested in nature – that sort of thing. I am all of those. It is always refreshing to meet and talk to like-minded people.

    3. NarcAngel says:


      I found your comment interesting. I have oftened wondered if in the odd quiet moment when the creature stirs and they are feeling shame, that they sneeringly qualify their hate for us by acknowledging that if we are gullible enough to accept the facade as real that we must be less than perfect and therefore not worthy or the one. And so devaluation begins.

      1. Twilight says:


        Interesting point

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Hi Twilight

          How are those chickens?
          Haha, and yourself of course

          1. Twilight says:

            Hi NA

            I am great! Looking forward to the cooler weather and Autumn colours.

            How are you?

      2. Scout says:

        Interesting theory NA. I could see a MR Narc thinking like this.

      3. Erin says:

        Interesting thought; NA

    4. Erin says:

      Thank you, Windstorm! I must admit, it is nice to hear from others who have similar minds!
      I am indeed very spiritual (but non religious), I am however child-free, but I work with children as a profession so you are right about the “giving” profession! Nature is a place where I find peace, and I am very fond of animals (thus I became a vegetarian and I’m now vegan) so you pretty much hit the nail on the head 🙂
      We are indeed alike!

      1. Windstorm2 says:

        I thought I could sense a similar minded person! I’m a retired middle school teacher who volunteers at my old school now. I love nature and draw much energy from living things and the weather. I’ve lived in rural Kentucky my entire life – so lots of nature opportunities.

        I’ve been a vegetarian for 40 years, because I don’t want to harm animals – vegan is just a bridge too far for me. I don’t even kill snakes or spiders, but I make an exception for ants in the house and mosquitos.

        I consider myself both religious and spiritual, but to other religious people, I am just a heretic because I pull ideas and practices from Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Wicca and Shamanism. I’m currently studying chakras and the use of crystals for healing.

        I think one reason I get along so well with the more intelligent narcs is they tend to be both openminded and easily bored, therefore they find the unusual interesting. I very much enjoy good conversation and learning new things. 😊

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Are Windstorm and Erin dating now? If so, I like nature and animals too. As in: being blindfolded while naked and having someone touch me intermittently to elicit jumping and flinching while I hiss like a cat or scream like a banshee.


          1. Windstorm2 says:

            We may not have a lot of things in common, but you always totally crack me up! 😂

          2. NarcAngel says:


            Well due to my education here I can now see whats happening. Youre devaluing me with that backhanded compliment while you focus on your new IPPS Erin, but we all know youll be back lol.

          3. Windstorm2 says:

            Ha, ha, NarcAngel! Be back? By now everyone on this site surely knows I never leave! 😆
            Watch out! You’re paranoia’s showing! Only death gets rid of me. ❤️

      2. Erin says:

        Wow, Windstorm, you’ve been vegetarian longer than I’ve been alive! That’s amazing, and it must not have been easy. When I went vegetarian 11 years ago people thought I was nuts, I can’t imagine what it must have been like 40 years ago!

        Narc Angel: Safe Sane and Consensual, always!

        Side note: I keep reading this running joke about HG and a selfie stick…what’s that about?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Nothing of note.

        2. Windstorm2 says:

          Ha, ha! You have no idea! My narc mother was a beef cattle farmer. You can imagine how my stopping eating meat went over! Lol!
          Her entire family (brothers and sisters) ambushed me at a family gathering once – “since God said in the Bible to eat meat. Then your refusing to eat meat is the same as saying God was wrong! That’s blasphemy!! What do you have to say for yourself!”

          When I got pregnant with my first child, they were all after me again – “you can’t grow a baby on just vegetables! You’ve got to give up this idiocy now and start eating meat again or your baby won’t be able to develop properly!” I just looked at my uncle who was a dairy farmer and said, “Cows make calves all the time just eating grass. Look how big calves are compared to a baby.”

          Now my narc husband always told everybody he was glad I became a vegetarian. With me not eating meat, we could afford to buy better cuts of meat for him! 😀

          1. Twilight says:

            Erin and Windstorm2

            I am curious did you stop eating meat because of the thought?

          2. Windstorm2 says:

            Thought? I felt a bond and empathy with all animals – especially fellow mammals. It caused me pain to think of causing them pain. I got to see first hand how it was for food animals with my mothers cattle and hogs. I decided I could live perfectly well without eating any of them, so I made the decision to no longer eat meat. That simple.

      3. Jenna says:

        Hg: “Nothing of note.”

        Ouch! 💔

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It is a fact, nothing personal.

    5. E. B. says:

      Hi Erin,
      I agree with you when you say that as long as narcissists do not show their true selves, they will never be truly loved. Very few people, if anyone, expect their partners to be perfect and flawless.

      1. Erin says:

        ” Very few people, if anyone, expect their partners to be perfect and flawless.”
        true. Unfortunately narcs are the exception, because they expect their partner to be perfect in their eyes but, most importantly, they expect THEMSELVES to be perfect, which is not possible.
        The only way to have a healthy, happy relationship with anyone is to have a healthy relationship with oneself, first.

  12. Scout says:

    Thanks Patricia. We fell hard indeed, but we can’t stay crumpled on the ground for ever, we have to gather our strength and pick ourselves up and take a new direction.
    I wish you well too, Patricia.

    1. Patricia says:

      Once you gtf up off that floor you may amaze the hell out of yourself Scout! It’s unreal how long it takes to process this kind of damage! I’m still hurting but it gets easier and in reality my life is better than ever now Narc free. I’ve had nothin’ but Narcs for most of my life and the last one nearly ended me. Finally the black cloud of misery he covered me in is GONE. I don’t know if I will ever get over the love I have for the illusion but I wish you and all of the Narcissistic abuse victims even more than healing, I wish you ‘thriving’.

      1. Scout says:

        Correct. I naively thought 7 months down the line I would be healing, but it’s taken that long just to process the abuse. Healing is going to take a lot longer than I envisaged, but I will gtf off the floor, don’t you worry Patricia! 😉

    2. Tappan Zee says:

      So my boss is narc. that took no time to see. done and done. swiped the take no
      shit empath over drive on him today. it came out of nowhere. i was like nope. that’s not how it works. we adult here. you are my boss. oh you can’t adult bc i am too this or too that. too bad. so sad. that’s on you. NOW who’s falling like dominoes? hell hath no fury like an empath HiGh on seized power.

      next. my psychiatrist of 30 yrs. yep. full on greater (will conform with THE greater here next consult) but ya. done. not going back. beyond narcray. nc will be easy. unraveling the misdeeds. meh.

      what a glorious shit show of fire works this is. being real. tellling the truth at work. oh whoa still have a job and my hair isnt on fire.

      doc? not worth the convo. plus i am, was and always will be the crazy one. not worth the effort.

      we could write letters to all our nexes. now that they are right, left and center of my life. not just partners. all..

      lastly. my nex to whom i was dirty white knight empath to ipps promotion, then i rescinded the crown. depart. done.

      He loved a song about girls falling like dominoes. narcs click click click now toppling over.

      ever-presence much? flick.

      * To fall sequentially, as when one object in a line, by falling against the next object, causes it in turn to fall, and that second object causes a third to fall, etc.; the process can be repeated an indefinite number of times.*

      Did i mention how cool his music collection was NOBODY had the taste and class he did. don’t believe me? don’t worry he would tell you…

      the narcs fall like dominoes (really chilling song NOW to watch and hear — POST escape way later. just wow)


  13. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

    Here’s another important point: You would have to accept her for who she is and not constantly criticize her and pick at her. This ideal individual won’t stand for it and she will leave you if you pull that shit.

    1. Tappan Zee says:

      Patricia—alternate reality fo sho.

      1. Patricia says:

        fake news

      2. Patricia says:


  14. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

    A good portion of what you’re searching for comes from the inside not the outside.

    The first step is being authentic and telling someone what you need…and making sure that it is reasonable.

    The rest involves choosing someone on your wavelength (a mental connection – someone who can read you) and altering behaviors – like giving and extending yourself – providing support – even if you really aren’t in the mood to do so but doing it because in the end you both benefit. Another thing would be finding different ways of coping that aren’t as destructive (basically replacing destructive ones with coping mechanisms that are healthier or more productive). Direct communication is a must.

    A huge piece involves replacing destructive behaviors with “healthier” ones that are more effective and efficient.

    Ideally, you would need someone who is different. Someone who is accepting, understanding, and has a similar vision/goals. The person would have to be someone who could make your feel comfortable and someone you could rely on but they have strength and won’t let you take advantage. Someone you personally admired in some way and you were proud of. Someone who kind of like …compliments you. Some kind of comfortable chaos…stable but edgy and can be unpredictable and spontaneous.

    You would have to give it back though. You would have to be able to recognize what is in front of you and value it enough to not let your anger destroy things. You would have to for the first time try and fight the urge to destroy. No one can manage a one way relationship. You say you can if you are getting what you need and if that’s the case then you won’t have a problem.

    Unique people exist but you need to be able to put in the effort to keep the relationship. If you recognize the persons value you may actually try. I mean after all you both would benefit.

    1. Windstorm2 says:

      Dr Q
      That’s good relationship advice for all of us.

      1. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        Thank you 🙂

  15. Scout says:

    Until narcissists look long and hard in the mirror and face their real selves in order to change their thinking patterns, the abuse, cheating and other terrible traits that makes up NPD will continue. Narcs are addicted to us for their so-called fuel and we are addicted to them and their so-called ‘love’.

    What I’ve learned is that narcs and their victims are locked in exactly the same addiction pattern as a drug addict or an alcoholic faces; both groups wrongly believe they cannot survive without each other, keeping them perpetually locked together. It might sound obvious to the point of overstating the obvious, but it’s what I have to keep telling myself to keep me grounded in reality and steer clear of the illusion I was originally drawn into.

    There are days I believe I’m recovering, and there are times when I falter. One of us has to break the addiction and we all know it won’t be the exN.

    1. Patricia says:

      It’s so difficult because we fell so hard. I feel your pain, Scout.

    2. J says:

      I agree. I have often wondered if drug addicts ever write love letters or lament poetry to their drug after it is gone… the same way we do…

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Historically, I think the tendency was to write whilst on the drug.

      2. Tappan Zee says:

        J– many songs, poems, etc are about this and that wrecked love, so technically they are singing about their ‘drugs’ which are people, relationships and most likely: appliances :/

    3. Tappan Zee says:

      Scout– Until narcissists look long and hard in the mirror and face their real selves in order

      that mentality (construct) may keep one stuck. expecting or thinking it is possible. it is not. the evidence and experience shatters this myth the above is possible. ‘just look in the mirror’ is not possible. not them being stubborn. their mirrors are broken (not an excuse) but near as i can tell it simply just is. they have npd. thinking ‘just grow up’ or do this and that is us projecting our reality onto that which is not.

      student of this deal. not expert. just reading reading reading (here) and watching (out there). thankyou for providing the narcden for us hg to teach us cubs how to live amongst them. er you. :/

      1. Scout says:

        Hi Tappan Zee, getting him/herself to look in the metaphorical mirror to affect change is my illusion; in theory all things are possible, in reality change requires great courage and determination and the honesty to recognise the disorder. However, psychiatric screening and MRI scans are revealing the complexities of disorders like NPD and there is hope that although NPD cannot be cured, evidence is beginning to emerge that cluster B disorders can be managed. Do I cling to that hope? Yes I do!

    4. NarcAngel says:


      Re:breaking the addiction.

      I believe you have found the key.

      1. Scout says:

        Thank you Narc Angel. We have to take back control and that comes from knowledge and boosting our own (often damaged) self-esteem. I appreciate recovery from abuse is a long, lonely road but I now understand that emotional triggers leading to abuse and manipulation can be ‘handed back’ to the abuser. I can see the light in a very dark woodland, but I’ve still a journey to travel. I hope you are making good progress too, NA.

  16. Patricia says:

    I can remember telling him I didn’t feel that he really loved me, he only loved how I made him feel but honestly although I said that I couldn’t fully grasp it at the time.It still blows my mind honestly.

    1. Scout says:

      Patricia, I guess many of us can relate to your comment. I myself, told me exN that I was aware he didn’t love me, that he was using me only to control me for his own purposes, although I had no knowledge of what the purpose was until finding HG and researching NPD. And you are absolutely right; the whole dynamic of false love and how we are tricked by their machinations is mind blowing. No wonder recovery is a slow, hard slog.

      1. Patricia says:

        Yes Scout that’s the thing. until Mr. Tudor I couldn’t understand wtf it was all for? I could not even fathom this whole alternate reality that exists in the Narcissists mind. I still so bizarre to me that a human can seem one way yet operate without any real love or empathy at all.This site has opened my eyes and changed my life but I am sure I will struggle to fully accept it all for as long as I live.

    2. Monflyxx says:

      kinda like the quote “you never loved me, you just loved how much i loved you” xx

    3. K says:

      That was a very prescient statement that you made, Patricia.

      1. Patricia says:

        Yes K there were so many of those instances of knowing something that I couldn’t really explain in that stupid ‘relationship’.as well as the relationships with the other Narcholes It took Mr. Tudor to clarify it all. I am eternally grateful for this site!

        1. K says:

          Ditto Patricia! This site is a lifesaver.

  17. SuperXena says:

    This is another new one for me.Although I have this déjà vu feeling that I have read it before but perhaps not commented it.
    Answer to the question:
    ” ….I have always continued to believe in the power and capacity that the next target may just be the one. I am not a bad person for believing in that way am I?”
    Yes: if the Narcissist continues with the same narcissistic cycle. The outcome will be always the same.
    No: if the the Narcissist has the insight enough and willingness to find out the cause of this need of fuelling and look for alternative ways of fuelling ( auto fuelling). The outcome would be different.

    The change of ANY variable in the equation would automatically result in a different outcome….

    1. J says:

      @SuperXena I think about this all the time… It really seems that they’re trapped in an infinite loop that gets more ingrained each time they do it…

      1. SuperXena says:

        Hello J,
        You are right! Thank you for your comments! I really appreciate them. They make me reflect about the obvious: Right now, I am trying to find a solid argument that explains to me why should I even continue thinking about it? Doesn’t make sense. I left my ex narc for 22months ago, no contact and I am absolutely not thinking on going back.Never. I have moved on.

  18. 12345 says:

    It’s funny because we empaths and narcissists really think alike to a degree. A tiny degree that is. You’re hoping we’ll finally be the one that doesn’t let you down and we’re hoping you’ll finally be the one that doesn’t let us down.

    1. K says:

      I couldn’t agree with you more, 12345.

  19. Windstorm2 says:

    No, such a notion is not noble. It is totally selfish. And while I believe you actually used to believe such a woman’s love was possible in the past, you are too self aware and intelligent to still think this way today. Eventually you will come up with a fuel system that is less destructive and more permanent, requiring much less effort on your part.

  20. kimmichaud1 says:

    If u had realistic expectations u could have had the one many times

Vent Your Spleen! (Please see the Rules in Formal Info)

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.