A Very Murderous Narcissist
You may have heard that Oscar Pistorius, the ‘Blade Runner’ has had his sentence for the murder of Reeva Steenkamp increased from six years to fifteen years, less time served. This paralympian and a man who made history by competing in the Olympic games is well-known for the shooting which resulted in the death of Miss Steenkamp and thereafter Pistorius’ repeated attempts to escape the blame for her death. He is an example of a narcissist and a murderous one.
Pistorius was born with no fibulas – the smaller of the two lower leg bones – his legs were amputated below the knee when he was 11 months old. Six months later, he received his first prosthetics. From thereon began the rise of the man who would be seen as ultra-competitive and a living example of the triumph of determination over adversity. What people did not realise was that narcissism was driving this man.
He grew up in a comfortable family where he exhibited from an early age a desire to engage in adventure and risk-taking. He would go-kart and ride mini-motorbikes with a disregard for his own safety and those around him. Anecdotes from his school days reported him as never being left out, that he was always surrounded by friends and he was the centre of attention. His risk-taking was encouraged by his family since in the Pistorius household, nobody was allowed to say “I can’t”.
An early driver in the formation of what Pistorius was to become was his mother. His mother was a huge influence. She put inspirational notes into the lunchboxes of her children, and one letter she wrote for him he still keeps: “The real loser is never the person who crosses the finishing line last. The real loser is the person who sits on the side, the person who does not even try to compete.”
The young Pistorius was being pushed, the mantle of expectation placed upon his shoulders.
He found his lack of lower limbs marked him apart from others and made him feel special. He never had to wear cricket pads and he could leave his leg dangling against a hot oven and not suffer terrible burns. Children at the beach marvelled at his small round footprints, while opponents on the rugby field who tackled him were left clutching an artificial limb. There was always a reaction to engaging with Pistorius.
When still a child, his parents divorced and he lived with his mother and his siblings, away from his father. His mother then died when he was 15 years old and this impacted on Pistorius considerably.
Pistorius’ determination and recklessness was being channelled into sport and running. He wasn’t particularly successful to begin with, but then his running aspiration took off, driven by the desire to be the best and his deep-seated rage at the various humiliations that he had experienced as a consequence of the loss of his lower limbs. It was then that his sporting prowess shot into the stratosphere. Three weeks after taking up sprinting, Pistorius ran his first 100m race. With his father watching in Bloemfontein, he won the race in a time faster than any double amputee had achieved before – 11.72s. A star was born.Eight months later, he won the 200m gold at the Paralympics in Athens and his life changed forever. Before long he began running against non-disabled athletes, first in a Golden Gala 400m race in Rome in 2007, finishing second. He then competed in the London Olympics in 2012, making history.
Here was a good-looking man, with accumulating sponsorship deals, money, fame and attention. However, alongside this the traits of his narcissism were there, albeit, as ever, undetected by commentators.
In 2011 when speaking to journalists, Pistorius explained how one day he had been driving when he ran over a dog. He stopped and got out of his vehicle. The dog’s back was broken and its two back legs now useless, but it was alive. The dog’s owner came out of his house to remonstrate with Pistorius. Pistorius pulled his gun from his car and shot the dog dead. Some might argue that this was putting the dog out of its misery, but there was no hesitation, no discussion with the owner, no attempt to see if the dog might benefit from intervention from a vet. Pistorius acted decisively and killed the dog. There was no empathy for the dog or its owner.
That same year whilst being interviewed by the BBC, Pistorius was asked a question, a reasonable one, about his fight to take part in non-disabled athletics. Rather than answer, he was wounded by this neutral questioning of his entitlement to compete and with fury igniting he stormed out of the interview.
At the London Paralympics in 2012, his ignited fury appeared yet again. He lashed out at Alan Oliveira a Brazilian who had beaten Pistorius in a shock win. After Oliveira stunned Pistorius in the final 30 metres of a race the South African had never lost at a major championships, Pistorius accused the Brazilian of running on blades that were too long and made the race unfair.
“Not taking away from Alan’s performance, he’s a great athlete, but these guys are a lot taller and you can’t compete [with the] stride length. You saw how far he came back. We aren’t racing a fair race. I gave it my best.”
There was no grace in this statement of defeat but rather the complaint of the race not being fair. Pistorius sought fuel from his complaint of being bested, his pity play. He appears to be gracious, as he seeks to maintain the facade, but that is all it is. He lost the race and rather accept that fact, he accused his competitor of cheating and that it was not fair. Feel sorry for me.
The International Paralympic Committee ruled that Oliveira had not done anything wrong.
Another South African Paralympian, Arnu Fourie, told a journalist he had to change rooms in the athletes’ village because Pistorius was shouting on the phone so much, Pistorius’ ignited fury appearing on many occasions as he was unable to control it, even when somebody else was to hand observing his behaviour.
In 2013 a journalist explained how Pistorius had insisted that he pick up the journalist form the airport (exertion of control) and then whilst driving at 155 mph (250 KMH) he was checking text messages on his ‘phone, terrifying the journalist in the passenger seat. Pistorius was entertained by this reaction. Here he exhibits no empathy for the position of his passenger, a lack of accountability for the speed he is driving at and whilst checking text messages on his phone, a sense of entitlement to do as he pleases and of course gaining fuel from the reaction of the passenger.
Another journalist commented that on reading Pistorius’ biography ‘Blade Runner’ he felt none the wiser as to knowing who Pistorius is because as the journalist stated ‘there is nobody there’. Interestingly, that particular writer saw through the construct even though he evidently did not realise what this meant.
A further journalist explained that Pistorius was insistent on teaching him how to shoot and would not take no for an answer until he had taken him to a shooting range. Again showing his sense of entitlement, desire to exert control and lack of boundary recognition.
Further examples have emerged of Pistorius’ narcissism. There was a gun that went off in a restaurant and another shot through a car roof, and the odd verbal and physical fight. Journalists who questioned whether Pistorius’ blades could give him an advantage were given no more interviews.
In these examples we see
- the need to exert control over others
- lack of empathy for others
- lack of boundary recognition
- sense of grandiosity in being allowed to use guns when he chose to
- silent treatments doled out as a result of wounding
- the appearance of heated fury resulting in verbal and physical fights with people
Thus it appears that Pistorius was clearly manipulating secondary and tertiary sources and applying his ignited fury towards them. What though of intimate relationships?
By his own admission, Pistorius’ relationships with women over the years have been turbulent. In his book, he referred to a “particularly nasty argument” here, a “very fiery” relationship there. It is clear that his ignited fury would manifest in the context of these intimate relationships also, he evidently struggled to control it as a consequence of being wounded.
“He could get very furious suddenly,” says his biographer Merlo. “He spoke of a fire inside. He had tough arguments with girls and afterwards sweet reconciliation. He has always had very beautiful girlfriends. I never saw the temper but sometimes there were situations where it was [apparent]. Sometimes he can explode but I have always seen the bright part of the moon, I’ve never seen the dark part.”
Of course his biographer is looking to maintain the facade for Pistorius by saying he had not witnessed the dark side and of course it may well be the case that the truth is being told and Pistorius did not exhibit his ignited fury to the writer. However, the disclosure about his girlfriends shows :-
- repeated very beautiful girlfriends, the hall mark of an elite or somatic narcissist
- repeated arguments – the ignition of fury, these were not occasional or sporadic but the frequent behaviour of a narcissist who is wounded
- split thinking – the eruption of fury and then the reconciliation thereafter as the fuel provided will have healed the wound and thus the fury abates
Of course normal people have disagreements in relationships but they are not frequent and nor are they “tough arguments” or “explosions”. That is something else.
And then of course we come to the murder of Reeva Steenkamp, an educated, intelligent and beautiful young lady who would clearly attract the attention of a somatic or elite narcissist and so she did. She paid for it with her life.
It is unnecessary to go through the trial in considerable detail as there is a mass of comment and reporting of the same. The points which arise and which are relevant to Pistorius’ narcissism are as follows :-
The Supreme Court in South Africa judged that Pistorius has not shown genuine remorse for what he has done nor does he appreciate the gravity of his actions. This is manifestation of his lack of empathy, his sense of being untouchable of being above the law and moreover the fact that he has attempted to manifest some kind of contrition as part of his ongoing manipulative behaviour which has been seen through.
Pistorius cried in court. He was not crying for anybody but himself, a risible pity play and part of his manipulative behaviour.
His defence to the prosecution was laughably ridiculous. It would not take Columbo to pick apart (repeatedly) how his story of Valentine’s night was just not credible. This shows his magical thinking, lack of accountability and repeated lying.
The text messages exchanged between Pistorius and Steenkamp which were provided as evidence at trial showed savage exchanges between them as he lashed out, again manipulating and evidencing his ignited fury and she responded to these attacks in a hurt and angry way but challenging him and of course thus providing Challenge Fuel.
She once wrote
“I’m scared of you sometimes and how you snap at me and how you will react to me,” The couple had argued after Pistorius had accused her of flirting with another man. Sound familiar?
The murder of someone he apparently loved in such a violent fashion. This underpins he did not love Miss Steenkamp, for an empathic person who does love would not kill the person they love. Further, his reaction through using firearms, the shots fired and the manner of what happened showed he knew what he was doing and it was as a consequence of that ignited fury manifesting once again as it had done so on many times previously.
The Supreme Court commented
“Although he may have been anxious, it is inconceivable that a rational person could have believed he was entitled to fire at this person with a heavy-calibre firearm, without taking even that most elementary precaution of firing a warning shot, which the accused said he elected not to fire as he thought the ricochet might harm him.
“The accused must have foreseen and, therefore, did foresee that whoever was behind the toilet door might die, but reconciled himself to that event occurring and gambled with that person’s life.”
This evidences how the defence was a lie and how Pistorius had no empathy for Steenkamp.
Interestingly, the defence psychologist formed the view that Pistorius had Generalised Anxiety Disorder which of course formed part of the defence namely that he had “over-reacted” owing to this anxiety to thinking there was a burglar.
The prosecution psychological evaluation found no mental illness and that Pistorius knew right from wrong. Naturally, the prosecution would not want to find any kind of illness or disorder as this would potentially hinder a conviction or at the very least aid mitigation if he was convicted.
Following his conviction, Pistorius then sought various alterations and privileges with regard to his treatment, again manifestations of his grandiosity and need for special treatment. He also used his disability as a basis for this treatment – quite the shift from someone who had always insisted that his disability was never a reason previously to treat him any differently. Of course, it suited him to use his disability this way, evidencing the expedience we are known for.
As many of our victims know, little shackles us, but from time to time, the impact of the criminal law does catch up with our kind and in the case of Pistorius’ it has caught up with him not once (the verdict being changed to murder) but twice (his sentence extended). Of course, Pistorius will remain unmoved, mired in his own self-pity and still blaming the long-dead Miss Steenkamp and others for his downfall.
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I just finished The Fuel Matrix part one and I would like to amend my choice from LLN to ULN. Oscar had an excellent fuel matrix, he was famous, had money, he was driven, had friends and a beautiful girlfriend. Damn, I got to hit the books more; I am getting sloppy.
HG, I watched a documentary recently about Betty Broderick and it was saying that she was portrayed as a narcissist but actually it may have been her husband that was the narcissist and she was driven to kill him . Maybe some empaths when destroyed and smeared by a narcissist losing everything from their home , their children and they are smeared can kill the narcissist ?
Possible ???
Watch out Narcissists 🤔
Although Betty still shows no remorse and thinks she had no choice , so she probably is one one , 2 narcissists married . It’s scary to think how many narcissist couplings there are out there !!
I feel betty is an empath who married a narc. The narc drove her crazy and she killed. She was very empathic with her kids. I think that her husband and new wife made her lose her mind. I think after all this years she does not get that Dan, her husband, is dead. She talks about all of it like it was just yesterday. What do you think?
I agree. Just like Mary Kennedy … driven to suicide. They manipulate emotions and make us crazy. It backfired for Danny Boy. Once someone manipulates the children against the mother, something bad is going to happen.
Good thing I didnt know him or I’d be dead. As soon as he started getting pissy I would have asked him if he was mad because he couldnt find his socks.
Ha ha ha Ha!
Sorry…couldn’t help myself. That was funny. 🙂
Very interesting write up!! I have to admit ive only seen the movie trailer and know nothing of the story but will be looking into it. Sounds intriguing. This reminds me a lot of oj simpson.
I voted lesser midrange bc many times he has showed his impulsive nature and has lashed out. The pity play part of his personality points to him being a midranger but not a very calculated one. Based on this blog he didnt plan her murder but instead reacted impulsively much like shooting the dog. He has knee jerk reactions to situations.
Reading about his mother she didnt sound like a narcissist but instead encouraged him. I also say to my kids to not say “i cant” bc i dont want them defeating themselves and i agree you lose if you dont at least try. The notes in his lunch i do that as well and it comes from a place of love. I havent read much about his mother but she sounded very encouraging and loving. Im sure her death really had an impact on him.
Growing up with no lower legs i cant imagine what thatd do to someones self image. It mustve been terribly difficult for him coming to terms with that over the years despite not knowing any different. He mightve had a lot of pent up rage and insecurities over this and narcissism helped to cope with this part of his life. The many achievements and the popular guy who rose above it all…but did he really? Maybe deep down he felt very low about not having his legs. Its hard to say but i could see how it could impact someones life greatly and could go either way.
One australian lady i follow on facebook turia pit was burned in a bush fire during a marathon. Its amazing that she survived but now runs the ironman triatholons and has turned her disability into her strength. Shes got a heart of gold and didnt let what happened to her ruin her personality instead she faced it and was humbled by it and now helps others but this man i think turned the other way where his lost limbs he had a hard time dealing with despite outward appearances of overcoming this hurdle.
I think he felt sorry for himself and narcissism helped keep his feelings at bay. He seemed to exhibit outward anger and this would seem a lesser but the pity plays tie more in to midrange so i opt for lesser midrange.
Its a tragedy he could take this poor girls life and in the process his own. He had a lot going for him and instead of dealing with his inner demons his narcissism made him into an angry self righteous entitled murderer. Look how far that got him. I think more times than not it catches up with narcissists and they are left to deal with what they try to “run” from all their lives.
LMR
Lack of control and frequent ignition of fury
Did not accept liability for his behaviours
Default setting of pity plays crying in court and walking on his stumps during the court hearing as forms of manipulation.
His court room performance swayed me to LMR than a lesser category.
Hg have you ever written anything about the Menendez brothers who killed their parents? Talk about a family of narcs.
No, I haven’t.
Chris , I watched a documentary about those 2, def narcissists probably psychopaths and I believe narcissist parents , both the parents even the mother . When the boys were interviewed in prison zero remorse shown. I believe they are a prime example of genetics meets nurture = murderers
Of course not in HG’s case 😜 as far as we know so far ………
I chose lessor greater. I thought about mmn due to crying and stampeding off during the interview.
He insisted on picking up the reporter, his driving and texting makes me he has some awareness and agreeing to treatment with hopes of sympathy. Sickos…
This was an amazing post! I really LOVE the posts about famous people. I love this analysis, super helpful!
Nobody discusses how this guy was a narc. SO this was super enlightening!
Do you think you could do Charles Manson next? especially the people that did the murders for him. They were his lieutenants right? Amazing that nobody discusses the Manson family as lieutenants to a narc (not even references to flying monkeys etc.) I think this would be a good advantage for you, especially since Manson just died and is news.
great work
Possibly. I am pleased you enjoyed the post.
I find the different levels and schools of narcissists very helpful. Having a real person to classify also helps in knowing the different types.
Here’s what I have understood thus far:
Upper Lessers have street smarts and more ‘success’ but also react violently when they don’t get their way or feel threatened.
Lower Middle: Incredible Sulk. Plays the victim. Whines and sighs all the time. Poor me!
Middle Middle: Passive aggressive, doesn’t attract attention to themselves yet pathologically resentful and envious of others. Believes he is a good, decent person.
Upper Middle: Has more social clout and can turn others against one another. Thinks he is a great person and many think so. Very condescending and will speak to you like you’re an idiot. Will find subtle ways to put you down in front of others.
HG, do you think his mother created some of the narcissism ? Or that she herself was one ? The way that she mothered ? Her expectations etc
I believe she did. I do not know enough about her to pass comment on whether she was one though she may well have been.
There are good looking lesser somatic narcs, most especially when they are young, and I think he is an LLN because of his fury, both heated and cold, he reminds me of my twin.
HG, did you receive my post (on 24th of nov, 19:14) related to this article?
Slightly off topic.
I was on my way home from a trip away yesterday & when I came out of the railway station I saw a woman with a young child in a pushchair, there was a man in front of her shouting loudly at her & making threats .
The place was crowded & there was dozens of people were watching but not one single person intervened . . (I’m assuming because they thought it was ” just” a domestic .)
I knew instantly it wasn’t & recognised a lesser narc in the middle of heated fury, but for the fact there were people around I’m absolutely sure he would have assaulted her. At that point I also knew if I’d stepped in to say anything he would have been fueled by my reaction so I waited until he eventually left .
It transpired that the woman has a restraining order against the narc for GBH & he was breaking it.
Once up on a time I would have reacted just like everyone else & ignored it but thanks to everything I’ve learned from the blog I persuaded her to call the police & have him arrested .
Another narc with it’s main fuel supply well & truly cut
Thanks HG !!!
Well done NotSoSad ! 👏
Thank you AB. x
I’m glad she called the police because when I asked if he knew where she lived she said he did.
In a perfect world I would’ve liked to have taken her for a coffee but in all honesty her abuser was so angry I had to think about my own saftey too .
I agree! Well done, Not So Sad!
It is intimidating to get involved in a heated dispute involving strangers, but you handled this correctly by waiting for her to be alone before you approached. Unless she or the child had been in imminent danger, of course… but you knew you wouldn’t get far in helping her with him standing right there, exerting his control! And you’re right. Your intervention would have likely sparked a rage and exacerbated the situation.
Just having someone reach out, in a caring and confident manner, can offer so much when we’re feeling beaten down. Often, it provides just a dose more of strength and encouragement to help manage the situation with a narcissist. Well done!
Kudos for your bravery in Fighting the Good Fight!
Yay NotSoSad!
Let’s pray she does not have hell to pay for the “transgression” and finds real help post arrest.
NSS! Hello! I’m passing through and I could not miss a chance to tell you way to go on stepping in. In the last two years, since being on this blog, I have also stepped in “uncomfortable” situations in public while others pretended not to see.
A similar experience like yours at a parking garage by O’Hare airport. A man had a women in a chokehold dragging her close to him to get her to his car with a small 3-4 year old boy following behind pushing his umbrella stroller. She has crying for him to let go of her. I got in my car, pulled out of my spot so I could get the license plate and then pulled a level lower to call 911. I wish I knew how that turned out. The man looked strong and with his adrenaline going, I didn’t want to try to break them apart but I was pretty shaky.
The second experience was at a family type restaurant with a gift shop attached. I was waiting in a semi-long line with my purchase and this little girl about 5 year old was looking at some of the Easter decorations. She was in clothes that I’d describe as weathered and worn. And she had the saddest look on her face and would not make eye contact with anyone. Her father came up to her and leaned down and said into her ear, “Don’t even ask for anything or you’ll get the belt.” She only blinked. No emotion. I was enraged. He walked away from her for a few minutes and I was trying to get my composure. She took off one of her shoes, (maybe something was uncomfortable, she was adjusting it). It was still very cold out and she had no socks on. The dad came up again to her and said “what are you doing? You’re going to get that belt when we get home.” Without even thinking, I hopped the two feet out of ilne and got nose to nose with him and said “you need to count to ten and think before you even lay a hand on this precious child”. As quiet as he was saying it to her, I said it to him. Piece of shit Coward slithered away to another part of the store. There happened to be a 6’0″ man behind me in the line. Pretended not to see the whole thing. Sickened me.
I still remember it because she probably got the belt since I called him out on his abusive behavior, but I’m so hopeful that she heard a stranger’s voice saying she was precious and somewhere inside knows she can escape that bullshit someday.
I don’t sit back and watch those things happen anymore. I’m vocal.
I hope you are feeling strong and have a great Christmas to look forward to!!
MLA and NSS
Thank you both for intervening where you felt you safely could. I would have got the belt anyway, but it would have stung less knowing that someone saw him for what he was and made him feel small for me when I could not. Those things stay and its how I know that I am not completely broken.
Hi Clarece,
Nice to see you again! 🙂 I hope you and your daughter are doing fine!
MLA !
Thank you.
It’s so nice to hear from you 🙂 I’ve missed you but glad you’re moving on . 🙂
In a way feel the same . I can’t just walk away anymore . At the end of the day ALL narcs are cowardly .. POS..
And yes I’m about to have my third Christmas narc free ! Lovin it .
You too XX
South Africa is rampant with Narcissists, particularly of the Lesser school, and mid range I guess. But lack of impulse control towards rage is a firm favourite among men here. (and some women). As well as flight.
We have a number of similar cases at the moment as the OP one.
There was Chris Panayiotou, who ordered his wife’s killing. She was a teacher, he was having an affair. I haven’t followed that case much , so unsure as to whether he is a narcissist or just a self serving murderer. He was also handed sentence yesterday (Black Friday), he got Life. Still amazes me that Oscar only got 6 years, mostly house arrest, and now just a few meagre extra 7 and a bit years.
There is the Jason Rohde case, a very high profile business man, the (now former obviously) CEO of Sotheby’s, where he strangled his wife while at a Business Event at a luxury local Wine Farm Hotel, also had something to do with his affair, and the wife finding out. Obviously causing rage in him.
There’s Henri Van Breda, who is alleged to have axed his whole family. He has no sense of heart or empathy or remorse or sadness for the loss of his family. The case is still ongoing though, and no verdict has been reached.
There’s Karabo Mokoena, who was brutally killed and burnt to death and left in a field by her boyfriend, Sandile Mantsoe, who also denies everything, and shows zero emotion about it. I believe her murder was due to him going into a rage as she confronted him about flirting with other women, or something of the sort.
She had laid charges previously against him for abuse. And was actually an activist against women’s abuse.
Sadly the list goes on and on, with our very much underlying energy of the lesser narcissist in this beautiful country.
My exe’s ex (a very beautiful girl), dated OP briefly before she dated him. (I came after her). My ex used to yell at me, OP should have shot me instead of Reeva… I was always so confused by this as I didn’t know either of them, and then one day his ex said it was probably because he was jealous that she had dated OP briefly. My ex basically wants someone to arrive to him a virgin with no exes, but with the sexual experience of a porn star. To know every man wants her, but wants to kill or threaten any man who wants her.
That makes me wonder, is everything always such a contradiction with all Narcissists HG?
It would be so interesting to see stats if it were possible, of the ratio of narcissists per country, and the schools. I do find SA is heaving with them. Whichever way you look.
I wonder if you could one day offer us some form of sample info on that HG.
Thank you for your observations Liv2Love.
Of course, there must be other factors for a person born with a physical handicap to develop NPD. I am just saying that being born different can sometimes play a role in NPD, together with other factors.
Bravo, HG, for writing these articles based on current hot topics. I hope (hope again!) they will help increase public awareness about NPD.
I applaud the South African Supreme Court for increasing his sentence.
I voted upper lesser.
I “like” this case because it shows how being born with a physical disability can SOMETIMES push that person to develop NPD. It is very tragic.
Guessing is very hard, but I chose Upper Lesser. It’s still very hard to guess someone you haven’t engaged with personally, IMO.
HG, I’d be interested in your thoughts on Jodi Arias, an obvious somatic narc/psychopath yet her victim seemed to also be a narc himself.
#1 Fan: if you watch interviews with Scott Peterson, the most telling thing is that when he cries he never wipes away his tears. So FAKE he was.
I was a kid and living in FLA during the time of Ted Bundy’s execution and let me tell you, he LOVED that publicity. You can Google those clips and it was 24/7 coverage. I think that was a very big mistake to give him so much attention. A very smart and physically attractive man who was also very, very sick.
I met the prosecutor of Jodi arias once ! He was amazing ! I watched the whole trial . I also realized something . When someone Is good you forget what they look like. He was about my size (short) he joked with me about how short we were etc . I never even realized he was short on tv . He mentioned some things about coming from Mexico and growing up in Fuanajuato . Again I had not even realized when I watched him that he was Hispanic . He is so admirable . He did a fantastic job on the case . Not like Casey Anthony’s prosecutor … 😡😡😡😡
Great writing HG ! Love this murder series
Thank you.
But why go back to someone you really won’t use for secondary or primary fuel? Did you finish the piece on loneliness? I read you mention it a few weeks ago, it but haven’t seen it yet.
They are used for Hoover fuel.
HG,
How long can a hoover last? I was hoovered and have been engaged with my Narc for 11 weeks, on-going virtual contact every ~2-6 hours daily.
This is not a continuous hoover but rather a series of repeated hoovers. They will last in accordance with the Hoover Triggers being activated and the Hoover Execution Criteria being met. Since this is happening and is happening repeatedly every day you need to examine what it is you are not doing correctly which is causing this or what needs to be done in addition to halt or reduce this.
Hoover fuel is proving to yourself you can still reel them in. Basically an ego boost.
My narc is suspected by many of having arranged for the murder of his brother. Sometimes, I wonder how I ever got involved in his life. As a definite somatic narc, I can’t imagine why he would have bothered with me. I am going through a detached ‘why’ phase. Not the painful crying “why” but a more detached, why pick me to target twice? But no matter, I see and saw, he would likely be capable of having arranged for his brother’s murder. That is enough to keep moving on….
That’s dark, dark.
I was reading about the new sentencing today and then seen your article ( which is great btw ) I have always had trouble figuring out the different schools. I went with mid range because it is hard for me to see a greater loosing control like he did and also putting himself in danger ( driving with journalist) like he did. Putting someone else in danger recklessly yes but not himself. Can’t wait for the correct answer.
Hello HG, this is a fascinating and brilliant piece of writing. Your insight should be used in the medical profession, schools , colleges, universities, criminal profiling , domestic violence , child abuse , the list is never ending . Your mention of the word N not being used again is frustrating, however if it were to then be used as some kind of insanity plea, I can understand why that may become more harmful . I’ve often wondered about that with serial killers for example , the acts they carry out are acts of insanity however they know how to cover their tracks and very often elude being caught sometimes for years and living double lives whilst carrying out grotesque murders. They cannot be insane (for use of a better word ) because they know what they are doing is wrong and go out of their way to not only hide it because they know it’s far from normal but to avoid being caught and yet are insane ( mentally ill) to carry out such things. I remember an interview I watched with Ted Bundy and he said That he was not a weirdo …. and was quite insulted that someone had said this to him …..
Would you define NPD as a mental illness when they do actually know right from wrong ?
I do not regard it as a mental illness.
In some instances the Lesser and the Mid Ranger will not see the distinction between right and wrong, because what may be wrong for others is right for the narcissist. In other instances they may (and this tends more to be the Mid Ranger) recognise their behaviour is regarded as wrong (hence certain manipulations and having regard to the facade) but their narcissism will not allow them to accept any culpability for that wrong act. Therefore they are unaffected. The Greater knows the difference but does not care.
The question of mental illness with regard to Ns is one of the most fascinating to me. For the purpose of further debate, allow me to push back a bit, HG. Removing yourself from the discussion, would you not consider, even in theory, NPD at least a form of psychological dysfunction? Speaking of my own Ns, when they have melted down (not fury, more like panic) in my presence, it’s as close to mentally ill as anyone I’ve ever seen. Delusion, paranoia, oddly unhuman-like gesticulations and movements (twitching, odd gestures, twisted posture, etc.), even the emergence of the voice “the creature” as separate and distinct from the actual individual. Also, the need to utterly destroy every facet of a relationship with a fuel source and a great deal of self-sabotage suggests, as Ann Rule describes in her book about her friend Ted Bundy, a machine that seems to recognize its own dysfunction and seeming hidden desire to destroy itself as well as everything else. The issue of telling right from wrong (in a legally culpable sense) and NPDs connection to sociopathy are both different questions in my opinion. Perhaps the category of “mental illness” is not helpful for NPD. In that case, respectfully, HG, how would you categorize it?
I understand why people regard it as dysfunctional but it functions for us. Furthermore, against what are you judging it? Homosexuality was regarded as a mental disorder in the ICD-10 as recent as 1992. Would you regard homosexuality as a mental disorder, something which functions perfectly well for that person? Who is to say that narcissism may be regarded differently in the future? Narcissism is considered as a personality disorder by a particular body which categorises various behaviours associated with the mind. Perhaps it should just be described as narcissism without the disorder label as that automatically creates a value judgement? I understand why it is seen as disordered behaviour to others and indeed I refer to it as such to assist people in grasping what they are dealing with, but for me it is not disorder, it is effective.
HG
I have been thinking about what you wrote and there are some positive aspects of narcissism, however, the abuse that comes with it can be very violent, especially with the lessers. If there was a way to get rid of the the lessers and the lower functioning mid-rangers that would be ideal. Honestly, the lessers are horrific from my perspective.
It is valid what you say HG, in the same way that you could say Autistic people or Asperger people function in a way that works for them whether it fits society’s idea of normal. However I’m sure that is considered some kind of mental health problem . If however narcissists are capable of murder , cruelty , domestic abuse , child abuse , both mental and physical abuse then that has to be seen as a dysfunction for society whether it works for the narcissist or not . A lack of emotional connection to living things is a problem . Whilst this could be channelled in the work place or other areas of life that unfortunately require non emotional decisions , this could even be said of doctors to a certain extent , not becoming emotionally overwhelmed by patients dying , if some of this narcissism could be stamped out or redirected from parenting , through education and it decreased some of the cruelty in the world that would be a positive . In order to even address this it has to be recognised as an illness / dysfunction. We also need to stop over paying and ass kissing footballers and celebrities, creating situational narcissism every where .
None of this is ever going to happen though, as the world becomes more technical and robots will become more and more prominent in the world , fit in nicely with narcissists . Narcissists in therapy forced or otherwise , getting themselves into trouble , is a sign that it is not working for them. Narcissists should be renamed Complete Denial Personality Disorder
Some valid points Scarlet.
1. Footballers, pop stars are entertainers that is why they are paid huge sums. Don’t like it, don’t go or watch them. Many of these people are talented. They may not be pleasant people (some are, some are not) but they have a talent which entertains millions so they are paid handsomely. It is the no-mark, talent-free individuals from reality television who are the problem – the Z list morons who cause young people to think that strolling onto a freak (it’s rarely talent) show is sufficient to command a life-time of fame and money.
2. What is your view about a narcissist who entertains millions through a genuine talent but is a wife-beater? Not good for the wife clearly but he brings pleasure to millions around the globe. How do you regard that? What of the narcissist CEO who makes employees cry for under performance but his steely guidance employs tens of thousands and delivers profits for shareholders such as pension funds? How about the narcissist surgeon whose drive and desire to be the best means he saves lives but is a complete horror to work with? Then let’s spin this on its head – what do you do about the empath doctor who is wonderful at looking after people but because of this additional time spent listening and caring never gets through their list so other patients are left waiting or even have to be turned away? Or the empath employee who is always considerate with customers and staff alike but their productivity is low?
HG, my view on what a footballer is paid or a movie star per movie is that it is beyond ridiculous compared to for example a fireman going into a burning building . The gap is a joke and cannot be justified regardless of entertainment value . I’m a huge movie buff so whilst I appreciate what entertainment and sport brings to the world , it’s ridiculous . I totally agree regarding the difference between the Z listers and reality shows .
What I’ve learnt from you has completely changed how I look at the world and whilst most of my posts have been about my relationship with the Will he Hoover me !! The truth is it’s really insignificant in the bigger picture . It makes me realise that this could be the reason why people are able to do the things that they do. I just say could be !! It is necessary to be somehow emotionally detached to carry out things that are necessary in the world, and probably no way of ever separating how the positive can be achieved without the negative as well. I’ve often thought that , let’s say vets for example , we all think they are animal lovers and they probably are , but there has to be a detachment in some way to do their job . As an animal lover myself I couldn’t see sick animals all day , put animals to sleep, perform surgery on them . I would be in tears all day and be taking animals home left right and centre . I get your point completely about the brilliant surgeon that’s an arse hole husband and could be mentally or physically abusive at home . Maybe the human race where meant to be unemotional to survive but developed emotions !! Maybe the over emotional is the dysfunction lol just a thought !!
This is where it would be very interesting and maybe productive for society to have someone like you actually discussing this subject in a public forum and not just about people’s romantic relationships although I do know you are helping many on this blog regarding many family dynamics and also your books.
Trying to keep productive narcissism versus unproductive , impossible . However if you had been parented differently , I believe you would still be a certain type of character but it could have been chanelled differently and used to be successful without the other aspects to the degree that they have turned out to be .
It may not really ever change anything but I think it’s so important that people at least understand this and realise how common it is because the lack of understanding in it’s self is a huge problem .
You cannot properly compare a pop star with a fireman. Whilst you may determine what a fireman does as being more important and of greater moral integrity and I am not undermining their importance, one fireman does not bring joy, excitement etc into millions of lives. It is also an occupation that is funded by the public purse. A pop star earns millions because of being an entertainer and people choose to make those payments because they want to be entertained, if they did not, the pop star would not earn the money because the state is not paying them. One may readily state that a fireman is of greater value to society than a pop star because they save lives and property, the question of earnings is separate and distinct from that.
Well I loved Elvis , even though he died when I was a child , I would love to have seen him live , but if my house was on fire I know who I’d want to turn up at my door !!
Your answer of course is logical and by the way I believe Elvis was a narc probably enhanced by his career but not just circumstantial, I believe , as all the weird signs were there , including the weird mummys boy aspect , sexual weirdness , slept in a freezing bedroom (like you !!) and much much more .
You HG are a prime example of a narcissist that could be channelled for good without the bad and you know that.
Your just biding your time to see how things evolve
Yes, it was cold last night and my bedroom windows were wide open. Well remembered.
Beautiful life like sex robots on Loose Women today , the way of the future !!!
No fuel for Narcs and Narcs no longer needed for victims , just purchase your own male or female robot .
What’s Loose Women? Some dubious website?
HaHaHaHa that’s hilarious , it’s a TV programme where celebrity women debate daily topics , the equivalent in the USA is The View . We copied American program very unusual 😜 I’m shocked you don’t watch it HG …… I’m working from home today
Sounds like a real intellectual heavyweight.
Scarlet and HG
You both have great points. I have worked with narcissists who did not do their jobs, stole everything in sight, sexually/physically assaulted staff, got drunk or high on the job, called in sick often or did not show up at all and that affects productivity negatively. Although I am an empath, I am very efficient when I work. Everything gets done, and it is done with precision and accuracy, as an added bonus, I am very nice, too.
Valid point K , jobs can be done without being ruthless and you can be nice to people . 😀 That would be real nice not fake nice …….
K, I also worked with someone who I now realise was a narcissist and he is extremely detrimental to the business to serve his own ego and the owner of the business is blind to him
Thank you, Scarlet
A married couple I worked with stole money and the business owner wasn’t sure who the guilty party was, so he watched me and the couple and realized it wasn’t me. They were fired and prosecuted for theft. He told me afterwards that I was being surveilled. Others I have worked with were either drunk or high on the job and would steal and management was often blind to it. It was difficult to deal with this behavior sometimes.
An interesting and valid point HG.
I can see your perspective on that.
Thank you.
HG Scarlet and J
Enjoying your exchange of viewpoints and valid observations on the various terminology used in relation to narcissism. In my ignorance (and because I based it on StepNarc who was a violent lesser) I always referred to it as a mental illness because I associated delusional thinking with mental illness. HG, you yourself use the term “delusional thinking” in relation to Narc behaviour. Terms sich as disorder and mental illness are used interchangeably but I notice mental illness has a more negative connotation. Maybe because it seems collective and to indicate more than one problem? For example I coupled StepNs delusional thinking with his hoarding and some addictions? In any case: Stockholm Syndrome is considered a condition (despite already having syndrome in the name), and yet Battered Womens Syndrome needs no futher addition. NPD is labelled a disorder………it can all be so confusing. Is there one for people who are addicted to and stay in abusive relationships? They may not know they are with a narcissist but they know that it affects them both mentally (and physically in some cases) or are we sticking with victim? Or is that disordered thinking? Furthermore, how is it determined what collective group has been awarded the distinction of being able to decide these labels? I’d like to be a fly on their bedroom wall lol.
Also HG,
You say that you do not consider it as dysfunction because it functions perfectly well for you and I respect that you have worked something out for yoursrlf, but you also say that your collection of fuel is necessary to your existence, that you would rather not have to do it, and that you hate having to rely on us for it. You do not for instance look forward to testing out isolation. A lot of your time is absorbed in maintaining a construct for a “creature”. Now we here understand that as you have explained, but you gotta admit-thats a one way ticket to crazy town for anyone out there looking in. All of these things appear to indicate there is a dysfunction but that you are working around it and managing it to the best of your ability. My thought is if there was no dysfunction the requirement of fuel and furthermore the change of it from positive to negative would not be necessary.
Scarlet
You may have been joking but I believe you are onto something with noting that over emotion could be a dysfunction as well.
I have indeed wondered, HG, how narcissism will be regarded in the future. And I think you might be entirely right. I have even wondered if, perhaps, it is an emerging, adaptive evolutionary trait. My definition of dysfunction comes from our current era in which Ns do not function smoothly as members of collectivist, cooperative, interdependent society. In fact, they outflank the rest of us by discarding interdependence in favor of personal advantage. There is, I think, both an argument to be made that such a tactic is BOTH personally advantageous and societally maladaptive. As well as, an argument to be made that it is neither good nor bad… it simply is.
(No offense intended ever, HG. I appreciate your comments, thoughts and robust discussion. Much appreciated.)
None taken, you make valid points.
I agree with J. The human values that are considered as positive are the ones that promote cooperation among members of a society (love, respect, honesty, etc). Those are the values that empaths and “normals” have internalized. Narcissists are free riders; they choose not to cooperate and get the highest gain to the detriment of the ones that cooperate. This is a rational decision because it brings them more individual gains (some rudimentary game theory here). It is a system that works for them as long as there are members that cooperate.
Since society needs cooperation among its members in order to insure stability and survival, narcissism has to be considered as a disorder, a deviant behavior. And, from the perspective of the society, it is. From the perspective of the individual, it is not: it is totally rational.
I do not think that narcissism is an evolutionary trait though. It has always been there and always will be. I think empathy may be more an evolutionary trait. Narcissism is more primal, it is directly linked to the basic needs of the ego and survival. Empathy is more difficult to achieve, you need to go a step further to have it, I believe.
A good subject to reflect on. It has many aspects.
Thank you for engaging Lou. Your points are well taken. The only small thing I would personally disagree with is the idea that Ns make a logical, conscious choice to preference their individual desires above those that promote cooperation. While I think that choice in and of itself can be rational, I remain convinced (Sorry, HG) that Ns have a condition (illness? dysfunction?) that manifests as a compulsion in the extreme to serve self, use others and destroy connection. A condition that ultimately they do not control. It controls them. I think HG’s powerful descriptions of The Creature and the need for Fuel to keep it at bay show that an N can CHOOSE to be cooperative, pro-social, etc., but only for so long and, even then, only really for the purpose of gaining more fuel.
Lou, totally agree with everything you say about being empathic is possibly something that evolved , Narcisists need to evolve , and also need to get braver , they are all cowards .
HG…
Some narcs (mostly Greaters) have their earned places in show business, companies or hospitals. Maybe your kind was born/their brain was wired to rule, not to love. It is a fact we (empaths) need narcissists in some areas, were pure logic is demanded.
In my opinion, problems arise when empaths try to rule over narcs (by empathy rules, never accepted by narcs) and when narcs try “to love” empaths (by narc’s rules, hard to understand for empaths-if it wasn’t for you).
Hi J. I never said narcissists choose consciously not to cooperate (or narcissism) as a strategy. They do not. They adopt the strategy little by little, in an unconscious way. But narcissism is a rational (unconscious) choice when we look at the individual level because the alternative for them is the destruction of their egos, their existence.
Narcissists live in societies. Therefore, I believe that the perspective of the society should prevail and that narcissism should be considered as a disorder indeed (so I agree with you on that point). If narcissists want to enjoy the benefits of living in a society, then they should learn to cooperate to a degree that is acceptable for that society. But we are not there yet because the whole world is still extremely unaware of NPD.
I don’t think I’m very good at picking their schools. He just seems too stupid to be a greater, but maybe that’s because he’s a somatic. I went with mid range but with his anger issues he very well may be an upper lesser. All I know for sure is he’s a type of narc I’ve always instinctively avoided.
We should avoid all types. ✔️
HG
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I voted upper lesser
Excellent article.
I voted for Upper Lesser base on lack of control,extreme responses, engaging in dangerous and risky behaviour,physical and verbal violence,paranoia. He is not thinking, he reacts.
And he is somatic ( only mid range and greater can be elite ).He was able to attract the attention of someone like Reeva thanks to his career and celebrity status.
My thoughts exactly.
Lower Mid Range.
Pity plays.
Lack of control to heated fury etc..
Like the analysis on real people!!!! Very interesting
Im glad he shot the dog.
It would have been in agony.
Animals are my heart.
it was the kindest that possible who cares about the owner when they animal was in that much agony the animal came first. The End.
Re vet…no ..not in that state.
Too much suffering in the long term.
No second of agony is tolerable in my book in that instance.
That was an act of compassion and done quickly.
🐾
😒Awful circumstance.
It was not done as an act of compassion.
I was torn on this one.
Certainly, he should have waited until he consulted with the owner, but it wasn’t lost on me the irony. Did seeing that helpless animal, with two “useless” legs, trigger something from deep within regarding his own struggles?
Still… his clear tendency towards rage, paired with all of his other issues, shows there was much more darkness going on inside his heart and mind.
But as an animal lover myself, having grown up in the country, I have seen my own compassionate father have to perform this act. Perhaps it’s not as kind as being euthanized by a veterinarian, but for some, it’s the most practical and caring way… to stop the agony as quickly as possible.
We may never know for certain Oscar’s true intentions here, but it was traumatic nonetheless.
But in comparison to what happened to Reeva, this pales.
Ok HG.
My emotions on the matter got the better of me as to the point of the article. Which is to explain the Motives behind why he did the things I suppose.
Regardless of motive the outcome was the same.
Suffering on that level to that degree which was so appalling and dreadful for the animal then whether the motive was meant to be compassionate or not, the outcome was nevertheless compassionate.
I don’t really give a rat’s ass what you call it. Forgive me.
You aren’t the only one that can ignite. This kind of thing with animals ignites me.
I will not tolerate that level of suffering for any innocent and I don’t care what it takes to make sure they don’t suffer.
I immediately ignite when I read these types of things and my emotions change instantly and without question.
If he had run over the dog deliberately and then shot it.. then obviously I would hope that he would rot in hell and suffer.
Obvs.
Nevertheless that’s irrelevant.
The animal’s suffering was terminated.
Should he have done it deliberately from start to finish then that is a completely different matter also..
I won’t bore everyone with this subject because I conceed it isn’t quite on track with the article’s main point.
People who harm animals are weak, so it has to be a Lesser, or a Midranger.
I meant put out of its misery at least.
😕😩
He killed a dog without any remorse. It shows how ruthless he can be and that he has no patience and tolerance for anything.
Reminds me of House of Cards opening scene.
It is a possibility that he ran into the dog on purpose Debbie…
Hey Elaine Bayliss-Slade.
Yes.. I thought of that as well afterwards…
I put a comment on but it’s stayed in moderation.
I said if hes done that I hope he rots in hell.
I read these things and then I Rush straight in .. all I could think about was the dog being put out of its misery. I clutched onto that and I instantly posted I’m glad he shot it..
I’m very visual and I was seeing it all in my head and all I could think about was getting the animal out of its misery.. I know it’s a bit dramatic but if only you knew what I was like over this kind of thing.
Of course I’m not glad he shot the dog as such ofcourse not.. it was to put it out of its misery that’s all I was caring about..
The act of compassion perhaps was worded wrongly..as in the word ‘act’ but it was actually compassion in the universe in the fact the dog was put out of its misery.
Of course it wasn’t compassion in the universe if he’s done it all deliberately in the first place!
As I say if that’s the case he’d better rot in hell.
I’d be the first to push him in there for that.
I found the story unbearable and I admit I didn’t read the article fully I had to put the phone down and go do something else. I just can’t stand that kind of thing.
The animal may have benefited from the cessation of agony, but the act was not compassionate. It was entitled, arrogant, and expedient for Pistorius..
Hi Ppa1
Agreed. Not an act of compassion by him.
The cessation of agony is key.
I probably worded my meaning of the word compassion all wrong.. the act of compassion was the cessation of agony but not compassion from him if that makes sense.
I feel too emotional about it I won’t re-read the article because of the immediate visual.
HG, very interesting article.
I have a question, as you told us about the dog’s accident and Pistorius’ behavior. I remembered my father loves animals and he isn’t able to kill a chicken. He also had tears in his eyes listening to music, without some interest in doing so. Is a narcissist able to do that? His mother was evil and controlling thou…and I knew her. His father…such a good man and her victim all his life.
My father took good care of many dogs along the years and never saw him hurting one. He named them, fed them and those animals loved him back…
Is it possible this kind of “empathy” for Narcs?
He may not be a narcissist. I would need more information about his behaviours overall to determine whether he is or not. That is a matter best addressed through consultation.
Thank you, HG!
When I’ll really need the consultation on this purpose, I’ll do it. He is my father, but I haven’t seen him in years. Even if I fully understand him, that’s all I can do. He has his family/life now. If he is not a narc, he is still married to one and I don’t want “war”.
My N loved and fawned over children and I think could never physically hurt one. However, I think he loved their unconditional and innocent fuel. Not to mention the juice he would get from LOOKING like he loved children. (Come to think of it, as it became clearer that I and others were figuring him out, he would more often bring up the children in our circle of friends.) My PatriNarc, also, would never hurt an animal. My point being: I don’t think cruelty to animals or children is necessarily a good indicator of NPD. Such cruelty is unacceptable to most people and maintaining the facade for others and for the N to maintain an image of self as a “good person” would make such physical cruelty unlikely… But there are lots of kind of cruelty and objectification that don’t leave physical scars.
Pistorius’ brother today has tweeted that he is ‘gutted’ about the increase in sentence. His father is apparently going to try to challenge the ruling. As far as I’m aware, the Pistorius family has shown virtually no empathy towards Reeva and her family.
I just find that plain weird. Sure, they love their son / brother. But I don’t think I’ll ever be able to understand why some families think that their relative shouldn’t face the consequences of their own actions.
My only explanation is that they are also narcissists, and their son / brother is an extension of themselves. For Pistorius to suffer narcissistic injury, means they also suffer narcissistic injury. The victim is mostly irrelevant – they are unable to extend empathy.
HG, any thoughts?
The may be narcissists but I think it is more likely that they have just been brainwashed to accept his version of events, which is common with the family and friends of a narcissist. Pistorius no doubt has smeared Miss Steenkamp to them and they have been taken in by this.
Honestly, I think you are being very kind to Pistorius’ family.
I am of the belief that a narcissist can genuinely love their family… not all narcissists are created through abuse or neglect – some are created through being spoilt, or being given the message over and over that they are special, or through not being given healthy boundaries, or not being made to take responsibility for their actions, and being shielded from the consequences of their actions.
This kind of narcissist sees their children as an extension of themselves – they see their children as being more important than other people (as opposed to just more important to them, if you see the distinction). Their children are special, and shouldn’t be subject to the same consequences other people are, Therefore, a negative consequence than falls on their children is also a slight to their ego.
I appreciate your own situation came about through very negative means in your family, but would you agree that narcissism can also be created through parental actions at the opposite end of that spectrum?
I am not being kind Sunshine, I am being factual.
1. I do not know enough about his family members to form an accurate assessment. They may well be narcissists. I cannot say one way or the other.
2. They will be members of his coterie and therefore likely to be brainwashed so as to adopt his stance and support him (this could happen as narcissists or non-narcissists).
A narcissist does not love. He or she may think he or she does, but they do not. Yes we see people as an extension and a narcissist may well regard an attack on an extended appliance who is an asset, as an attack on the narcissist and defend that person, but it is not done out of love.
Gosh apologies for the poor punctuation in that!
I am replying to your reply below (I cannot reply to that comment).
Your comment that “a narcissist does not love” runs contrary to what I have observed. I truly believe at least one has genuine love for their children and grandchildren. Perhaps the people that I believe are narcissists cannot be narcissists after all.
When you say “a narcissist does not love”, who exactly do you include within your ‘narcissist’ label? Presumably, you mean people like you, HG, who could be more accurately described as ‘narcissistic psychopaths’ rather than narcissists? As well as perhaps those that suffer from NPD?
Do you also mean those who may not have a diagnosed personality disorder, but are still high up on the narcissistic spectrum, and have many, strong narcissistic traits?
Do you believe that narcissists love themselves? If so, could they not love their children and grandchildren as an extension of themselves?
1. Either they are not narcissists or you are being fooled.
2. All narcissists. It might be said we have our own version of love, but I know stating such would only generate false hope in those whose emotional thinking is surging. We do not love – we do not know how to, we can create the appearance of it (see many articles about this fabrication and it cons victims over and over) but we do not love. We think we do, we say we do, but we do not.
3. We have an excellent conceit of ourselves, but it is not love. No, we do not love children and grandchildren – they may as NISSs have elongated golden periods which manifest as the appearance of love, but it is not. To think to the contrary is to your disadvantage, hence why we con you into thinking we do love people.
There isn’t a scintilla of love in any of my narcissists. My aunt and uncle trafficked four of my cousins and my mother and father did NOT love me or my three siblings. My MMRN does NOT love our daughter and my ULN does NOT love our son or daughter. They are completely incapable of love.
Thank you for your response. In regard to a narc’s ability to love, I read somewhere or was told that a narcissist may be able to love to the best of their ability. As in – it’s not that they are entirely without the capability to feel love, but that it is severely truncated.
I may be entirely wrong here, but I do not think all narcs intentionally con people that they love them, or other people. Only that they love them to the best of their ability.
Of course, I may be projecting and taking the compassionate and empathetic view here. But as with all of the narcs in my life, I would describe them as having some kind of an emotional arrested development. They were not born bad people. Of course, they do treat people badly, in varying ways and extents, but I can’t help but pity them to a certain extent. They are damaged and are trying to survive. I only have empathy for their victims, but I also feel sad for some narcs, for what they could have been, what they could have felt and experienced.
It is correct that not all narcissists intentionally con people but the con still takes place.
A driver may deliberately run over you and kill you. A driver may accidentally run over you and kill you. Either way so far as you are concerned the effect is the same – you are dead.
Same with the narcissist. You are conned by us. It is your emotional thinking also conning you into thinking that somehow it is ‘less bad’.
I agree, Sunshine. Weird.
Even Martha Stewart eventually faced her sentence, basically saying… let’s do it and get it behind me. (Albeit her short-time served was in a “cupcake prison.”) Still, she said that she had things she wanted to do, so the sooner she served, the faster she could move on and accomplish something productive.
I am not familiar with Oscar’s family. Even though I felt sympathy for his mother who seemed to have tried so hard. But for his remaining family members not to exhibit some compassion towards Reeva’s family is despicable, narcissists or not!
But I have seen exactly what HG is talking about regarding the power of persuasion. So many times we hear one side, forgetting that the truth often lies in the middle.
Oscar has youth on his side. Even with the extended sentencing, he’ll see freedom soon enough.
He needs to face this and take it like a man.
(I know my family would tell me that I needed to pay my dues if I had performed such an act. Maybe his relatives will simmer down and stay out of it?
Ah, probably not…. but they should!)
Very interesting article and analysis. Bravo, Tudor.
I read about Pistorius case a lot also. Big tragedy.
As for school of Narcissism he belongs to, it isn’t easy to identify precisely. He is an professional athlete and that means constant usage of excessive amount of anabolic steroids, that markedly increase the level of aggression and decrease the level of anger control.
I know the cases, when generally timid, shy, and quiet men became pretty arrogant, aggressive and violent after regular visits to gym, where instructors recommended them to eat and drink “proteins” (read covert anabolic steroids) to increase their muscle mass.
One thing for sure – Pistorius isn’t a Greater.
Another Great article HG. Good to know more goodies are abound.
I really love this series. Would love to see an article on OJ Simpson and Scott Peterson,
I went with middle Greater. Not sure about the “middle” part though. I have learned the differences in the 3 schools and can pick them out fairly easily, but I haven’t quite worked out how to differentiate the divisions within the schools. A work in progress.
Did I miss an article that may have revealed the other answers, or have they not been provided yet?
Please you like it. No, I haven’t revealed the answers, the answers are going to play a part of something bigger for you all. More “A Very” coming soon.
Love and enjoy these puzzles so much!
My neighbor as a child was, Scott Peterson.
Scott Petersons, whole family were evil, racist, and indeed lesser narcissist.
OJ would be a Lesser Narcissist in my opinion.
I remember that case too, HGT#1Fan… very interesting that you grew up beside him and had that observation of his family.
That was such a sad situation.
May LacI and her baby rest in peace as well.
Scott Peterson has recently been back in the news. Did you happen to catch the recent docuseries “The Murder of Laci Peterson”? I don’t know after seeing that if he actually killed her, but there is no doubt whatsoever that he is a narc. I agree some family members are as wel. Thanks for the insight on both Scott and OJ.
BurnKrispyKeen,
My mother would drop us children off for a few weeks at a time with my aunt who was neighbors with, Scott Peterson.
I remember as a child, Scotts Brother calling me a beaner, which is a derogatory statement made towards a person of a hispanic descent.
Lets just say, It did not go well when my mother, who was a Lesser returned.
Lacy was beautiful. I don’t understand how someone could could murder your beautiful wife, and unborn child over some woman, who he had a affair with.
I can’t believe this murderer, is still on death row after all these years living peacefully with our tax money. He is living peacefully because he came from money. Scott Peterson wouldn’t last in regular population in prison.
Jail house justice would of took him out a long time ago.
I agree with you, HGT#1Fan, on not being able to understand this horrendous act. It was so unnecessary.
I’m sorry you had that encounter with Scott’s family, but it sounds like that might have been one time when it came in handy having a Lesser for a mother!
I concur with Mona. Anyone watch Forensic Files. Most cases involve deaths related to greed, sex, and the fury from narc injury. Some real sick stuff has been bestowed unto some victims. Being shot would be a blessing. Its not always adults perpetrating either proving that the age of the narc doesn’t discriminate the actions or the mindset. Arsenic poisoning for example is not very empathetic.
Indeed. Botulism on the toilet paper is the way to do it.
After my scolding, I’m bringing my own roll if I ever make it across the pond!
Someone could have told me this one 20 years ago.Does it really work?
I did have times where I mentally plotted murder. Tried to figure out either undetectable or “accidental” scenarios. Never did commit any of these, but I did write down outlines for a few stories.LOL
Is plotting murder a narcissist trait if you don’t follow through?
Perse
It is.
There is hope for me yet.
Or a LMRVN that grinds up an over the counter medication they know you are anaphylactic to & put it in the meal they cook so lovingly for you & you wind up racing yourself to the doctors wondering why you can’t breathe…
Perse,
You’re not alone! Imagining and plotting got me through some dark times! Of course, I’d never act upon it…
Oh, HG, when will you reveal the answer?? The waiting is the hardest part…
See earlier response J.
I think he is a LGN because he is impulsive and seems to be aware of his behaviour. When his fury is ignited, it usually becomes heated fury, although he uses cold fury too.
By the way, when the voting is complete, are you going to tell us your assessment to which school he follows?
Extra “e” added or not, I need to know if I’m close?
See above response BKK.
Patience is a virtue.
I think we both need that today.
I in my reading… you in dealing with me.
And… have you thought about Cliff’s Notes?
Seriously, I do apologize. I can relate as I get the same way. It irritates me if I’m pouring out my thoughts and I think someone has glossed over my efforts. Your work is excellent and it does read easily. The oversight was all mine.
Are we now at peace?
I remember briefly following this sad case, but I had no idea on his backstory. Very interesting and insightful information you provided there HG… right down to the note his mother would tuck in the lunchboxes. (Reminds me of my own notes I’ve slipped into pails and pockets for my own children.)
My heart goes out to Miss Steenkamp’s family, having to relive this tragedy. May they find some comfort today in feeling that justice has been served (or at least a bit more has been awarded).
But my heart goes out to Oscar’s family as well. If his mother is still amongst us, I can only imagine what’s going through her mind… the hurt, the second guessing of her abilities, the disappointment. It’s always interesting to me to get a glimpse into the childhood obstacles as these experiences truly can “make us or break us.”
But still… he made a choice.
He is a Lesser with occasional abilities to exhibit Mid-Rangeer traits…. ???
Or, he’s a piece of….
Actually, he’s a wounded soul with much time to reflect as he lies on that stiff cot in a cold, lonely cell. Regardless, nothing will bring back the life of one cut way too short.
Many prayers sent for her family.
May she rest in peace.
His mother is dead, didn’t you read the article?!
I did read the article HG. It was excellent, full of so much information that, for an emotional thinker like me, I was so overwhelmed that a very piece of important information left me by the time I finished.
All I could think was how much his mother seemed to love him… how hard it must have been to have been being a single mother as you mentioned the divorce. Clearly, her death was instrumental, and clearly… my emotions got it the way of logic today.
I should have said… if his mother were still here, I can only imagine what she’d be thinking.
My mistake.
See. I’m so flustered I can’t even get my words in order!
Very interesting write up!! I have to admit ive only seen the movie trailer and know nothing of the story but will be looking into it. Sounds intriguing. This reminds me a lot of oj simpson.
I voted lesser midrange bc many times he has showed his impulsive nature and has lashed out. The pity play part of his personality points to him being a midranger but not a very calculated one. Based on this blog he didnt plan her murder but instead reacted impulsively much like shooting the dog. He has knee jerk reactions to situations.
Reading about his mother she didnt sound like a narcissist but instead encouraged him. I also say to my kids to not say “i cant” bc i dont want them defeating themselves and i agree you lose if you dont at least try. The notes in his lunch i do that as well and it comes from a place of love. I havent read much about his mother but she sounded very encouraging and loving. Im sure her death really had an impact on him.
Growing up with no lower legs i cant imagine what thatd do to someones self image. It mustve been terribly difficult for him coming to terms with that over the years despite not knowing any different. He mightve had a lot of pent up rage and insecurities over this and narcissism helped to cope with this part of his life. The many achievements and the popular guy who rose above it all…but did he really? Maybe deep down he felt very low about not having his legs. Its hard to say but i could see how it could impact someones life greatly and could go either way.
One australian lady i follow on facebook turia pit was burned in a bush fire during a marathon. Its amazing that she survived but now runs the ironman triatholons and has turned her disability into her strength. Shes got a heart of gold and didnt let what happened to her ruin her personality instead she faced it and was humbled by it and now helps others but this man i think turned the other way where his lost limbs he had a hard time dealing with despite outward appearances of overcoming this hurdle.
I think he felt sorry for himself and narcissism helped keep his feelings at bay. He seemed to exhibit outward anger and this would seem a lesser but the pity plays tie more in to midrange so i opt for lesser midrange.
Its a tragedy he could take this poor girls life and in the process his own. He had a lot going for him and instead of dealing with his inner demons his narcissism made him into an angry self righteous entitled murderer. Look how far that got him. I think more times than not it catches up with narcissists and they are left to deal with what they try to “run” from all their lives.
His behaviour on the phone and in the car are really familiar.
The owner of the dog must’ve given a lot of negative fuel after the dog was killed without his approval.
He was lucky the owner didn’t have his own gun.
Wow! I’m getting my best investigative journalism from you now. Excellent article HG!
Thank you.
If you watch special films about homicide, you mostly find someone who is a narcissist or has strong narcissistic traits behind the homicide. Therefore it is better to leave a narc as soon as possible, if you identify him. You never now how narcissistic he is and how far he will go. They do not have a stop sign inside of them, if the fury comes. Later they deny their lack of self- control and lie to themselves. They cannot look into their own mirror. It is not only the lack of empathy, the grandiosity, the coldness, the lack of accountability, it is their lack of self-control too.
“I’m scared of you sometimes and how you snap at me and how you will react to me,” The couple had argued after Pistorius had accused her of flirting with another man. Sound familiar?
^yes. and i knew nothing about this story. they are easier to spot. and scarier that others do not.
This was only announced few hours ago!!
I was following his whole trial on Tv and I was shocked that his previous sentence was so low..
Wow HG, thank you so much for this post. I have tried to find stuff on Pistorius on internet so many times, to see if I could tell if he was guilty or not (the truth-seeker I am). This is obvious now. Thank you and please stop writing all these interesting articles, because I really wanted to leave here (again) :).