A Letter to the Narcissist – No. 62

 

NA LETTER

Hello H.G
Well now how could I exclude one of the two most influential Narcs in my life? Influential for very different reasons of course.
I have reflected on my interaction with you and your work on many an occasion. On the one hand I am aware that you are an insufferable bastard to many in your personal life and have caused much chaos. Dangerous. I never lose sight of that fact, but it does not prevent me from looking to the other hand to celebrate those things about you that deserve to be.
There are others Im sure that would find this letter in accordance with their own confusion about you, and still others that would find it a distasteful display of fawning over you. Matters not to me as these are my thoughts and observations and I make no apologies for them. I wish to appease no one.
You dont get a pass because of your childhood, but I can see how being denied the love and acceptance that you so craved and deserved, saw you searching for a way to stop the cruelty that replaced them. A solution that would not have it become just a lesson in sadism and an act of futility, but one that would result in success and recognition, as why should you be denied that after all that you suffered? You had after all an example of effectiveness right before you in your Mother. If you would become her-you would not suffer you, yes? And a very effective machine you did become indeed. Despite debate about this, I do believe we need people like you in the world. People who would blanche at that might consider the following: (with just the information offered and not altering the scenario).
In a military operation thats success would ensure an end to war, would you:
Strike a school full of children where the coward responsible and his pillars of power are hiding out (and this is your only opportunity), or spare the school at the cost of ongoing conflict, lives of countless soldiers, their children, and innocent civilians?
In a flood: Faced with saving either your brother whom you love and has lived 65 years, or a baby that has its whole life ahead, what would you do?
As a surgeon: taking action that will extend a life but in insufferable pain, or greatly reduce the amount of life but in relative comfort? (assuming they cannot make the decision themselves).
Oh and make these decisions quickly will you-time is of the essence.
Not so black and white now is it? Well……not to US, but there are those who can assess these situations quickly with hard logic-not blinding emotion, and in those cases we may consider who has the perceived disability.
These situations of course result in some benefit to both sides and exclude those that in   the perspective of most, you choose to perpetrate for your own needs- but from your perspective, you believe to be necessary to survival. That seems to be the crux of the matter and begs much further investigation and a true willingness for both sides to suspend ego, understand, and accept if there is ever to be change.
It is also not the reason for empaths to do as they do, but we might consider our own egos and the fact that without people like you, how would the empath shine as the beacon of light we believe ourselves to be? Who would they fix and heal? Pour their life into to feel satisfied, whole, and complete in gaining (or going without in some cases) reciprocity? Candles are less celebrated in full sunshine.
I do not believe all of your kind deserve to bask in our light, but because of your intelligence and effectiveness, you have found a way (while not your goal) that benefits others while you achieve your own aims. I will say I find that approach to be genius as I have not seen this kind of success elsewhere that looks to be a possible catalyst to change in this behavioural dynamic of empaths and narcissists. Your approach and work in your articles, books, interviews, and the blog community have definitely affected me and changed me in some ways. They have given me answers and some peace where I had restlessness. I feel I have grown in the unlikeliest of gardens. I still dont know love, but when I make a choice intellectually and not instinctively not to harm someone, perhaps that is a kind of love in its own way?
My feeling is that rather than demand that you change and bend to our will (which seems acceptable by some collective and pre-determined notion that is still unclear to me), I choose to take the action that is available to me and that ensures success for ME.
To limit my interaction with your kind where possible (unavoidable in such situations as work and family) and to those that result in mutual benefit (this would appear to exclude intimate relationships due to the “mutual” component).
To hold to a core principal that my boundaries are respected, and when they are not-to understand that changing them to accommodate your lack of them is not an act of love, but of emotional self-flagellation, and that if I do allow them to be breached that I should look inward for answers-not excuses or blame.
So HG………witty, intelligent, malevolent, humorous, thought provoking, manipulating, charming, articulate, scheming, talented, effective, larger than life, dominating, Author, brother, controller, educator, alleged sexual benefactor, Titan, son, ground breaker, …and well this space isnt large enough to list them all………hats off.
To my mind, little HG has managed to mine much gold from the barren mine that was his childhood to find a way that works for him, and while that may not sit well with others and they beg for your further introspection and improvement, I say we have not walked in your shoes and that we are not always entirely successful in walking in ours. It seems from both perspectives we need elements of each other but feel they should be offered and not have to be taken by force.
I will continue to avail myself of all that you and your kind have to offer that benefits me, and I offer of myself positivity, traits, and strength that I have in abundance and am more than willing to share, but only to the point that they do not diminish me or those I care about in any way. Anything else you require to feel complete is for you to resolve and not my concern.
Little HG shines in you to my kind brighter than my red cloak to yours and of course therin lies the problem. Despite that-it is a light that you cannot extinguish any more than I can mine. It shines brighter than, and drives any success you have enjoyed to date. He is stronger than you recognize. Stronger than your mother ever was. Strong in spite of her, and guides you and others despite your lack of consent or belief that adult HG runs the show. Its possible we’re more alike than we think, in that we’re not the only ones who dont see things as they really are. Possible.
With respect
NA
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258 thoughts on “A Letter to the Narcissist – No. 62”

  1. Twilight –
    Yes, of course. He is like our ‘champion’ – not fighting for us, obviously (after all, only himself is entitled to such a premium knight) but rather baring the enemy while presenting the guns we need to defeat it. But here I am romanticising the situation again, sorry for this NarcAngel!…

    1. Carol M
      No need to be sorry. I never forget that this is HGs house and I am happy to be welcomed in with his many and diverse guests. Its always quite a party lol.

      1. True, as for me, this safe haven played a key role in my healing. Now I am dating a new guy and applying all those ‘narc tests’ HG taught us to him: Criticise him on purpose to see if his fury is ignited, asked him to talk about his childhood, etc…
        Cheers to our champion!

  2. Do you folks think all the tertiary fuel provided within this discussion could save an empath from Mr Tudor’s claws for, say, this week? I sincerely hope so.

    1. Carol M
      The letters that lean towards being narcissistic certainly generate quite the discussion, however, HG considers N.I.T.S. low grade fuel so I do not think it will save an empath.

      1. Well, Your Majesty always speaks the truth to His court, so what can we peasents say.

    2. Carol and others,

      I read somewhere that written words have affect associated with them. But to a narc, he reads them without affect/emotion. So, it is no wonder that the fuel frm this blog provides hg w v little fuel. He reads it in his own inner voice, lacking inflection, word stress, etc. I remember reading that it is actually a ‘cognitive deficit’ to read words and sentences in this manner.

      1. That is applicable and also the written word provides a lower quantity of fuel because :-

        1. If we speak to you on the telephone we hear the tone and inflection, the sobbing, the laughing etc.
        2. If we speak to you through a video device we get (1) along with the facial expressions.
        3. In person we get (1) and (2) along with seeing the look in your eyes, body language etc.

        Accordingly those methods increase the quantity of fuel compared to seeing emotion in writing.

      2. Ty hg.

        Why then, did the mmrn prefer text over phone calls? Is it simply becoz there are other pple around him and he wud have to find a secluded area?

      3. 1. He may not have necessarily preferred them.
        2. If he did, it will be because

        a. He can do other things whilst texting;
        b. Texting will not be over heard;
        c. He could conduct multiple text conversations – that cannot be done by phone conversation
        d. Texting is easier to do – energy conservation.
        e. Exertion of control/provocation – you may want to speak by telephone but he is denying you that

      4. Ty.

        b. “texting will not be over heard”
        Meaning? I cannot talk over him during texting?

        Whenever i asked to speak by telephone, he never denied it. It wud be an infrequent request by me becoz of the awkward silences tho. He is not v talkative, so unless i do all the talking or ask alot of questions, there wud be awkward silences. Thus, i wud not request it often.

        d. “energy conservation” – i think this is the answer in my case. He once said that his tongue feels heavy when he talks. I almost burst out laughing but i controlled myself. This brings me to two questions:

        1) is energy conservation more important than gaining more fuel by hearing voice inflection and tone by telephone?

        2) How do i know if he was just saying his tongue feels heavy (omg i can’t even write that without laughing) becoz it was appropriate to say at the moment, or becoz he actually means it (ie. energy conservation)?

        Ty.

      5. Jenna, that brings up a thought of mine..

        I’ve often wondered if “the reading of the written word” (and giving it inflection, etc – retrospectively) actually does *me* disservice. Do I hamper my own undoing by giving too much, or the wrong, feelings? Do I attach meaning that isn’t there? …. I think perhaps I do.. I need to be careful in that area.

      6. Jasmine

        I think when we are providing the narrative we have a tendency to do that as empaths yes. I believe you may have witnessed that here. Some people read things differently than others. I think it may depend on where one is emotionally when they read. Words and emotions can also be altered depending on ones view of the person writing them and their own views. Many people read a book or listen to a song and come away with something different. Then of course there are just basic misunderstandings. Im sure we have all received a text or email that left us angered or scratching our heads until it was clarified.

        Example: I can tell you this was definitely not a love letter or that I condone abuse but some came away with that.

      7. Perfect example narc angel! The written word is EXTREMELY difficult to decipher. I tend to use a lot of caps, – * … , etc to help the reader “decode” my meaning. But you are correct, even in something expressed (ie: your song example) that can still be interpreted differently by the listener.
        We need narc decoder rings.

      8. Hi jasmine,

        Perhaps we attach too much or the wrong feelings, but only when dealing w a narc. ‘Hush’ is a good example. I was associating it a little with feelings of romance, tho i knew the control element was present. After hearing it, the romance element disappeared, and i was left w only fear.

  3. NarcAngel,

    Reading your letter to HG has helped me settle a bit the ambivalence I feel towards him.

    I have been feeling sympathy for him, and something else i couldn’t quite put my finger on.

    I have persisted (till now) in feeling sympathy for him, in spite of his patiently explaining to me that he does have feelings. He functions quite well, He doesn’t miss love or joy. He is more comfortable in his life than I am in my life right now. It is ridiculous for my sometime barely functional self to feel sympathy for such a magnificent creation as HG. I will never know quite exactly what it is like to be one like him.

    I can feel empathy for the child HG. It is painful to contemplate the acts, actions, words, abuse and punishments that molded him as he is.

    I did finally figure out what else I feel for HG. Something I rarely ever feel, so not easily identified. It did cause me to feel ashamed of myself at first.
    I would never want to be HG or be like him, because I know what that entails.

    But I envy him.

    1. Don’t feel ashamed Perse, Queen of Hell, I envy him too. Not only does he have his shit together, but he has someone to do the dishes and the yard work. What’s not to envy.

  4. So long as you don’t invoke James Corden when you speculate on HG’s real identity, disaster averted.

    I’ve read both letter and discussion. Hats off to NA for her valid views and for sparking a passionate debate of equally valid counter points…I dislike confrontation because I fear a lack of resolution and the tendency to aggression.

    Whether Karma is a constructed abstract, or if exploitative people are better at some things than I am does nothing to change my experience of overall balance in the world.

    The one thing I take away is that I need to focus on my own balance. Balance emotion with logic. Balance selflessness with self preservation. Balance boundaries with an open heart. Once I do that, I can be the change I hope to see in the world.

      1. On that tangent HG, I have no draw to you personally but if you ever host an episode of Carpool Karaoke I’m all in. Musically, you are My People.

  5. For some reason, HG’s voice reminds me of Jeremy Clarkson, so I’ve got that image stuck in my mind, unfortunately. My eyes! My eyes!! Argh. Sorry HG, to mention you and him in the same sentence.

    1. Listen to Hush…You dont know …what you dont know. HUSH.. 🥂 My son said H.G. is a pimp😂🙂🙂Nighty Night.

      1. Jasmine, Yolo & Perse, Queen of Hell

        Well, since I am still on my cookie kick from the Three Little Empaths, if we are HG’s hoes then maybe our Lady Fingers can fondle his Rum Balls.

        HG, that was a bit cheeky and, in the event that you took offense, I can maintain plausible deniability by stating that I was referring to baked goods and you are being overly sensitive. I think this is gas lighting. Jinkies… I think I am really starting to catch onto to dynamic.

  6. I don’t care how handsome HG is, all I care about is he helped me when I needed (and in my head he looks like Matt Damon while shooting The Bourne Identity). And imho NA’s letter is far above the average ones I see posted here.

    1. Carol M

      Thank you for the compliment. Btw-we are all HGs girls if you ask him, (and for life no less). Meh-let him think what he wants, no one is asking

      1. Narc Angel: “Btw-we are all HGs girls if you ask him, (and for life no less). Meh-let him think what he wants, no one is asking”

        ❤ I love this! LOL

  7. Annie

    If you had to kill one person to save a hundred, could you? Could you do what is needed to save the many? An Empath would hesitate, if they did carry this out it would haunt them. It will never haunt one of HGs kind and they would not hesitate.
    This world is more violent then many realize because it doesn’t affect their lives.
    Now I do not agree with the abuse, and only the Greater can I see changing their behavior if THEY find a reason for themselves to do such.

    Have you ever tried to change your core beliefs?

    1. Hi Twilight

      How are the chickens? Hope theyre not running afoul (wah wah……)

      You posed a good question. Did you watch the movie American Sniper?

      MOVIE SPOILER ALERT HERE. PROCEED WITH CAUTION.

      There is a scene where there is an American convoy of soldiers coming into an area and a woman with a young boy appears. The sniper (Bradley Cooper) sees the woman handing over a tank grenade to the boy as they are approaching the convoy. He has to make an instant decision and he takes out first the boy and then the woman when she picks it up from him. In another scene, the sniper fells an Iraqi and a child runs forward to pick up the grenade launcher left in the street. It shows the struggle for each as the child looks at the weapon and then up the street while the sniper wills the child silently from his position not to pick up the weapon so that he doesnt have to shoot him. (The child picks it up briefly but then throws it down).

      Now I dont know if the real American Sniper was an empath or a narc, but If I am in that convoy or the family member of any soldier in it, I want a narc whose black and white thinking and detachment allows him to adhere to his orders to secure the safety and success of that mission by taking the shot and having less or no PTSD because of it.

      I believe they have a place and purpose.

      1. NarcAngel
        I read the book and I am certain Chris Kyle was a narc, those scenes were in the book and, just for the record, I would have shot and killed the children and the mothers. In Lone Survivor, I would have killed all the sheep herders-two teenaged boys and one older man.

      2. NA,

        I can tell the one in the movie was definitely an empath base on the most memorable scene in this Best Picture Academy Award nomination movie in which a grown man ( real life sniper) waggles the arm of a blatantly fake baby.

      3. Hi Narc Angel

        Ha ha you crack me up. I don’t have anymore. I relocated.

        The American Sniper I believe he was one of HGs kind.

        Let’s just say I have had close ties with many in the military and some on the other side of that fence. So I have witness both the good and bad dealing with HGs kind. Besides my own personal relationships with them.

        I believe they have a place and they are very effective in what they accomplish to keep many enjoying the comforts they have.

      4. P.S.
        I wouldn’t feel guilt or remorse either. For the first 24 years of my life I was able to suppress those feelings and I can still do it, if I have to. I am trying to understand compartmentalizing and what that entails, as well.

    2. Twilight,
      I’m not sure why it matters what I would do in any situation or how your question pertains to what I asked NA. I merely asked for data to support the conclusion that a narcissist (a personality-disordered person) is someone who should be making the decisions NA outlined in her letter. I don’t believe these what-if scenarios offer any real value in a discussion of this type. I didn’t choose a career path that would put me in a position to make those choices because it neither interested me nor did I think I would be particularly good at it. NA’s examples in her letter addressed decisions that might be made by people in leadership positions, and then her response (which I appreciate) seemed to suggest she meant that Greater’s could make those decisions. As I understand it, Greaters are the sociopaths and psychopaths – is that true..are all Greaters sociopaths or psychopaths? Anyway, a Greater Narc should be deciding who lives and dies? Really? Someone with toxic logic should make those decisions? And in your what-if, it’s like you are saying if an empath can’t make that decision, that leaves the narc. No, there is a whole big group of normal people who are not equipped with toxic logic, some of them who are in positions to make these decisions. In many cases (although not all) people in those positions have been trained to make those decisions, or they have teams of people to advise them – people they listen to with healthy dialogues. Their leadership approach has been built over years of practice. They can act quickly. You don’t need to be a narcissist to act quickly and with logic. Truly good leaders have empathy and emotional intelligence – I would expect them to feel some remorse about having to take someone’s life (in non-criminal situations) even if they had no choice (what is wrong about reflecting on hard decisions, emotions are not bad things?), but I would also expect them to be able to act in those situations without being paralyzed by their empathy. The best leaders, if you have ever studied leadership, quickly assess situations and make hard choices all the time. I imagine a lot of them have narcissistic qualities, but they are not narcissists (personality-disordered people). In a life or death situation, I would want to be confident that my leader was making a decision based on what was best for the group in that situation, not what is best for himself. And in many cases, the ability to entertain ideas that come from other people (and not insist on doing it your way -the narcissist’s way) means that in these situations all lives can be spared (that Brit Shackleton is a very good example of that). The great leaders empower others and are confident enough in their own ability to listen to other options.

      Certainly things are different in the military. I’m sure you could dig up some real data to support arguments that narcs make good killers. But a fictionalized Hollywood movie is not what I would call data. I’m sure the psychological profile of the men and women in the military would be very interesting to study, and I imagine that recruits to special forces units require specific psychological testing and profiling – I imagine the leaders of those organizations are looking for a very specific type of person to be effective in those roles. Are narcissists the best? They are not always easily controllable, and they don’t always listen, they feel entitled, superior, etc… don’t always play well with others. Maybe certain narcissistic qualities are advantageous. I don’t have the answer, I am merely discussing. I do know that military personnel undergo extensive training and probably participate in many practice scenarios particularly designed to reduce the tendency to hesitate. And in combat situations, the will to live and protect your family and friends (ie, your unit) is tremendous for nearly every human, not just narcissists. You have no idea what you would do in that situation unless you were in that situation. It would make for an interesting read. And who is to say that a narc’s time in the military doesn’t affect them? Maybe not PTSD, but their success or kill record would surely make them feel very powerful, superior, entitled – and I am sure his spouse will feel the effects of that when he returns home.

      How about this for a what-if situation. If you, as an empath, walked into a room full of children, 5, 10, even 1 or 2 children, tied up while a 40 year old was raping one on a bed. And you happened to have a gun (because these what-ifs are pure fantasy), would you shoot him? Would you hesitate? Would you feel guilty about it? What if you knew that if you didn’t kill him, he would kill you and all those precious children? I have heard from many empaths on this blog that child molesters should be killed. How do you feel about that? Is it something you would do, or would you leave that for someone else? I’m not asking this to provoke you and I’m not asking for an answer. But to me it is a serious statement, with all I have learned from HG here on this blog, to say that it is ok for a narcissist (a personality-disordered person) to make a decision that impacts whether someone lives or dies. It should not be a flippant remark. With what I know, I would never be able to trust that person to make an unselfish choice. Those are the exact decisions I would want to leave to someone with emotional intelligence, who has good communication skills, listens to other ideas, has a documented record of a leadership style that does not rely on propagating misinformation or scaring people to get them to buy into their vision, who doesn’t treat people as objects or appliances.

      I read a lot, Twilight, and spend my days asking questions that require the respondents (myself included) to answer with data to support their conclusions. I have a very open mind, and it has been changed on a number of occasions in my lifetime. Whether or not my core beliefs have changed, I would need to reflect on that some more.

    3. For the record, I am aware that there are plenty of narcs in positions where they may make these types of choices. And it doesn’t help me sleep any easier. But I am very thankful that most of these times the checks and balances systems many organizations have put in place mean these decisions do not end up getting made by individuals in a vacuum.

    4. Also, for the record, I am aware that narcs do hold positions where they may be able to make those decisions, which makes me very grateful for the checks and balance systems most organizations have in place to prevent individuals from making these choices in a vacuum.

    1. Hi innocentia,

      This doesn’t sound like a love letter at all. And i think hg chose the image simply becoz it is his website logo, so it is fitting.

  8. Great letter narcangel and a lot to think about.
    Emotionally i want to see this disorder gone. Abuse should never be tolerated and the outcome of it is not a desirable one but logically every person has their place in this world and like a food chain you need balance. If this world was filled with only empaths it would not be balanced. Thats not to say i like the narcissism disorder. There are narc traits that prove beneficial but the actual disorder is centered around extreme self centerness .Maybe in certain situations it is a strength but in other situations its destructive and about tearing down what the narcissist feels is a threat to what they want without any regard for anyone else.
    I dont like narcissism.. i guess i said that already. Some narcissism is important in individuals but the disorder part of narcissism i view as destructive and counterproductive to the good in this world. It is a disorder and thats important to remember. To a narcissist its viewed as a advantage over others.
    That being said narcissism is a spectrum and each narcissist is different. Nothing as you say is black and white except to a narcissist. HG is doing so much good here and i too have benefited from what hes shared. I am very grateful for all hes done here and ive come to like who he is ….on the blog. I never forget that outside of this blog i have no clue who he is and the extent of abuse hes put other people thru. Its easy to lose sight of this. That said i do respect everything he has done and i feel sympathy for his childhood but once youre an adult its time to be your own parent and you are responsible for your own choices and actions. I think of this everyday bc i havent made right choices at times and i feel tremendous guilt but i accept the consequences and i know it was my choice. If HG is still using these narc tactics its his choice in doing so and theres no excuse for abuse. I can see where and why but at the end of the day its a choice.
    When i first came across one of HG’s interviews i was in a very angry stage and i think i posted a few angry comments lol After being on this blog and learning more about narcissism i feel very differently. Its diffused my anger. Its also taught me so much about myself and other people. Im not as quick to judge and im more forgiving but im also strengthening my boundaries and being way more cautious. Life is not black and white. There was a time i would of said get rid of all the narcissists but like your candle and sun analogy maybe we need these people to help us see the good even more. I am a believer in learning from each other and our experiences. You can learn from someone you dont agree with or even like at times. Were all here for a reason and we all have our own journey to travel.
    Ty for sharing your letter NA its given me a lot to think about and there arent easy answers but then life isnt meant to always be easy.

    1. Everyday I live, breath, and think NARC. It’s consumed me for months. I’ve read, listened, and talked about what it means to be a narcissist, and my own feelings too… hg gives >>>>>ME <<<<< a safe zone to place my own feelings. Frankly, i NEED a place to understand, to live in a fantasy (let's be honest).. to throw my anger..and to cry, if I need. Whatever I need. That has to be done to survive. *for me*
      … you've opened my eyes to that Narc Angel. Thank you. And thanks to hg.. sorry I'm using you… But im buying your stuff too.. win-win dude

      1. Jasmine, This line made me laugh.

        And thanks to hg.. sorry I’m using you… But im buying your stuff too.. win-win dude

        Narcissists are the ultimate users and never apologize for it. You really are an empath, Jasmine.

  9. “It is unreasonable for instance to think all firemen, policemen, or military are empath and are in those fields to save lives exclusively,”

    To be clear, I wasn’t suggesting that.

    “but I sure want them around willing to throw themselves into dangerous and life threatening situations for their own recognition if it saves my ass, and I bet there are many with me on that.”

    You were using in your letter a very* different example, but never mind…

    “I do consider comments and disagreement as discussion and invite them”

    With respect, I don’t think you do. At all.
    According to you, I amounted to a “hater” because I disagreed.

    “but there comes a point (after oh I dont know-maybe 8 or more lengthy and repetitive posts) that hammering away at the same thing evidences something else.”

    I reposted my earlier comment to evidence that 1) my argument was not* based on the “more” piece like you claimed, and 2) I corrected my response to reflect exactly what you were saying as I can’t edit the first one. Sorry if that amounted to “hammering”.

    “I am always glad to see passion. Wether it is something I agree with or not, it indicates that person has life and fight left in them that the narcissist did not take from them.

    I just wish they would have found that voice and listened to it when they were ensnared and used it to get out.

    That is what I truly wish for you all.”

    Thanks. I actually did and that’s why I ended up here.

    1. Note: I’m unsubscribing from this thread so I won’t be reading or responding to any more comments on this topic. Good day, everyone.

    2. Mara

      Congratulations. I hope others will find and use their passion and voice to do what you have done, and that you hold that resolve and stay out.

  10. Narc Angel
    The lines below are noteworthy and are similar to thoughts that tango throughout my mental facilities as I ponder the conundrum that is NPD. Flip sides of the same coin, we are both blinded by the light-the beacon we believe ourselves to be-a reflection of the storm that is the narcissist; an irreparable enigma who draws the healer towards the rocky shoals, shipwrecking her so he can plunder her brilliance to slake his thirst. Does the light dwell in his darkness? Alack, I cannot see her in his shadows; she eludes him, however, in my darkness, he is the light.

    It seems from both perspectives we need elements of each other but feel they should be offered and not have to be taken by force.

    Its possible we’re more alike than we think, in that we’re not the only ones who dont see things as they really are.

  11. Hi NA! What a pleasant surprise that had to be for HG to get your letter. The exercise was for the individual to convey their thoughts and feelings to the Narc in their life. That is precisely what you did. Nicely done!!

  12. Hg do you think all these letters were written to people who are actually narcs? Have you read any and thought the writer was the narc instead?

    1. Hello Curious, some of them will have been written to people who may not have been narcissists, the vast majority are to narcissists. In a couple of instances the authors may well be narcissists.

      1. Haha. Funny that question should come up on one of my my letters Totally random Im sure.…

      2. Well you know my view re your good self NA, but others will often misunderstand as they do not know as much about you as I do.

  13. 1. Without sociopaths/psychopaths/narcissists it won’t be a single war in this world, nor guns. Their obstinate wish for money, power, land, oil, diamonds, slaves made colonies all around the world. It seems like karma to me (facts based one, HG) that U.K. or France have problems with people whose countries they once invaded. Not talking about amerindians, about the carnage caused by Europeans wanting their land…

    So: no, if it wasn’t for sociopaths/psychopaths, there would be no need for a “rational” choice to kill less innocent people instead of more ones. We can’t live in Utopia but that’s not something to thank psychopaths for.

    I’ve seen a man going to the war and coming out of it alive and having emotions, real friendships, a family, being a really calm and understanding father and husband. So, no, you don’t have to be sociopath to survive war. Most men are more rational than women because it’s how they came to this world…adapted.

    2. Surgeons…I saw a psychopathic one, he was able to perform an amazing transplant, such a shame he performed that only on rich and/or famous people, to get money out of them and imagine capital. It doesn’t matter children died because some old VIPs survived (even if, LEGALLY, not only morally, those children were on transplant list for years). For me, that brilliant surgeon is of NO USE. Without getting well paid (in private medical system, he took patients from state hospital to his own and ask them for money, apart from those received from medical system) he wouldn’t move a finger and watch someone dye. He’s gone so far as putting at risk a patient’s life, only to get rid of a “dangerous” emphatic colleague. He told all: not a word because you’ll regret it. Great surgeons feared him for years, it took an empath (asked to do that by a dying child) entering politics and all media to knock him down. After that, all people told about the emotional abuse they lived for years. Oh, and he’s still there, no prison yet as dead people can’t talk anymore…a long process…

    Another psychopath surgeon…was performing experiments on children: we only heard about those successfully surviving because it worked for his “good image”, nothing about those dying (because of malpractice) still having days in front of them. He was the leader of doctors association, you could complain about his work to him…fair, isn’t it? This are discovered cases, I’m sure covered ones exists all around the world. They were doctors corrupting even the political system according to their own will just to make sure their agenda was all covered.

    I call those two serial killers.

    A “great” psychopath surgeon won’t tell us how many has he killed in order to make an astonishing discovery. As an empath, I ask myself…

    There are also human neurosurgeons (I met one of them in person and heard about the other two). One was balancing a decision for 2 weeks (brain surgery or not). He gave up on the money he was going to receive, looked the woman in the eyes and told her he can’t do it, as he didn’t understand what was causing her those symptoms. He asked her about her family and told her to go home and pray for a miracle, as only God could save her, not him. The risk of sending her home in a wheelchair was too much for him to bear.
    She went home, symptoms disappeared in some weeks and now (more than 10 years later) she has a perfectly normal life. Only because that surgeon was a normal/empath, acknowledging his limits, not considering himself God on Earth. But emphatic surgeons don’t go around advertising themselves, they live their lives in the hospital, saving lives. One of them told before he died, in an interview…he had to enter the operation room tears in his eyes, with two angry parents at the door because he was late: they never knew (at least not from him) he was coming from his son’s funeral.

    Long list, but…FACTS!

    I wouldn’t want to get in the hands of a surgeon seeing a patient like a “thing”. Sometimes being robotic makes one work better, sometimes having a conscience helps us all. Fortunately, I had a great surgeon working on me. He is not the emotional type (normal) but he has conscience and that was the most important thing for me when choosing him.

    HG, you have my gratitude, but I can’t extend that to all narcs/sociopaths/psychopaths. Most of them leave another “kind” of legacy: more suffering for the innocent ones, a name and…money!

  14. Jenna

    Thank you. For the record-you are one of the people here on the blog that has helped me to understand, and in some cases, adopt a different view than I initially had when I arrived here. I thank you and so many others for your contributions to effect that.

    1. Narc angel,

      You made me blush☺️
      You too, have helped me see things in different ways, and i too, thank u.💗

  15. Beautifully and eloquently written, NA,
    Indeed, we must not forget the power and influence HG has had on our lives, assisting us in escaping and maintain no contact and reduce our emotional logic while entangled.

    Your letter shows the beauty of my favorite word, the dialectic. When one holds both the “bad” and the “good” simultaneously in ones mind , one is able to rise above black and white emotional thinking and enter the logic of the gray. This is where we find peace, we are able to put down the extreme emotions a vote by this kind, and still not lose the beauty that is often evident and those that have this combination of personality traits. I too do not dismiss the abuses and the horror that many of us including myself have endured. And I am not blind to the fact that HG himself is capable and probably has engaged in many things far worse than we know. With that said I also see his beauty, sort of like the concept of the MorningStar in the story of Lucifer. I will always be grateful for the lessons that I’ve learned from those narcissists and abusers I have engaged with in the past and do not hold myself and I sent either, for I too had to develop more logical thinking and these lessons or meant to be. I am grateful for those lessons, though I wish that all of us that have experience this type of abuse didn’t have to endure. Including HG himself. Well done NA!

    Indy

    1. Please forgive the auto correct typos. Ugh!! I meant to say emotions “evoked” not “a vote” by this kind….that I do not hold myself “innocent”….not “and I sent”.

      1. Indy,
        Group was today, everyone was challenge to answer the question of the definition of dialectical and not one person could reply. I was able to use your explanation by providing examples of political and religious parties while remaining subjective. I stayed in the grey area. The therapists example was comparing one person being on one end of spectrum in contrast to another. I guess like this post, but looking at the other persons position objectively. Pretty much compromising, i like your statement”grey area”. Especially, as it applies to our thoughts and using wise mind over emotional mind and finding that balance..

        As you may notice, i am a work in progress and bpd dont bend that easy. Much appreciation to you for leading me there. Gosh its been about 7 months or so.

    2. Indy

      Thank you. I could easily have written a nasty a scathing letter about HG that a lot would enjoy and feed off of, but that seemed redundant in that it has been done to death and that is not what I chose to focus on at the time that I wrote it. You know that I have challenged him many times where maybe others have not witnessed that. Maybe he is not the only one who employs the salami slicing technique-he admits he has entertained different views in his time here and with the good Doctors. I am not trying to save him as some do, but who knows-maybe over time some of those words get through to little abused HG (but I wont hold my breath). All I know is: It aint easy being grey.

      Nice of you to say hello and I hope you are well.

      1. NA, I think most would have appreciated a letter from your real life entanglement with a narc. Not the author.. people have poured out their souls told horrendous stories about their entanglement with narcs.

        Truthfully, i found no value in this letter. H.G. if nothing else has been transparent about his work. Does he triangulate on here? Yes. Is he always honest? He’s a narc. When some one tells you who they are believe them.

        You suggest that many posters want to see or expect change. If he does a poll, most will Probably agree there would be little to no change.

      2. Yolo

        I have written three letters-all different dynamics of my narc experiences. You are correct that many people have poured out their souls and told horrendous stories and I have read them all. I decided a different focus this time and I didnt expect everyone to find value in it, so I am not disappointed that you dont.

        I invite you though to tell me what I have done that has caused you sporadically to take pot shots at me directly and through other peoples posts. Recently I was confused by, and asked what your meaning was behind a poem you posted. I thought you had written it until a subsequent post where you identified that you had not. Your answer to me was that you were sorry I didnt find value in it. I never said I didnt find value-I wanted to understand what you intended to convey. In another example, someone asked me a question and you answered with something about two affairs and a beef with NA. I still dont know what you meant, but it looked like bait so I didnt respond.

        I get that Im not your cup of tea and Im ok with that, but youre not making a very good case for yourself. You said it-people show you who they are, believe them. I think youre better than that.

    3. Hi Indy,

      Thanks, i needed this as part of my homework assignment for DBT group. Webster definition is so bland. I can relate to your definition and will use it if you don’t mind.

      “dialectic. When one holds both the “bad” and the “good” simultaneously in ones mind , one is able to rise above black and white emotional thinking and enter the logic of the gray. This is where we find peace, we are able to put down the extreme emotions a vote by this kind, and still not lose the beauty that is often evident and those that have this combination of personality traits”

      1. Yeah, I agree Yolo. That is an excellent definition, Indy. If you don’t mind I want to borrow it, too. I need it to maintain my construct.

      2. K

        Haha-your construct made me laugh. If its anything like mine, what a diorama that must be.

      3. Hi Yolo,
        Glad to help with DBT homework anytime 😊 Hope you are finding the skills helpful!

        Hi K,
        Absolutely feel free to use any material I post on DBT if you find it resonates for you😊 Thst is what is key, finding how it relates to your own experience.

        Hi Narc Affair,
        I’m so glad you have found DBT helpful. It has helped me a lot.

        Practice applying the skills is the key, no one ever achieves perfection. Like mindfulness or meditation or yoga or medicine or therapy, it is referred to as a practice, not a perfection.

        Indy

    4. Hi indy…your post was so insightful! The black and white thinking im guilty of and am working on changes this. Dbt ive just started to look at and have found it helpful!

  16. What a nice surprise to have a letter addressed to the greatest narc of all, hg. And it’s frm the perfect person to write it, narc angel. I enjoyed this letter v much.

    I agree that certain jobs can only be performed by narcs – like being potus who has to drop bombs all the time. An empath could not do it. Trump does it (tho i feel he is unsuitable for the job, being a lesser) and obama did it, without consideration for the innocent civilians being killed.

    I also feel the job of supreme court judge shud be only for greater narcs. Not for lesser narcs, that wud be a joke. So, really all we need are greaters. The lessers and mid-rangers can all die. Sorry for my harshness today.

    I wud like to see more letters to hg. It wud be enjoyable to read.

    1. Hi Jenna, maybe we should all write one letter each to HG. He’d have a nice little correspondence waiting for him.

      1. Hi twilight,

        As i had my consult yesterday, i’m feeling better now. Ty twilight for caring abt me.

    2. Jenna,

      H.G. gets his share of letters from his posters/bloggers. Glad to see you are back. Sad to see that (bitch) depression reared its ugly head. I would say go shopping but we know that’s only a temporary fix.

      Have Faith you will get through this. The finest gold have to go through the toughest fire for to obtain it’s brilliance. When the smoke clears you will have the finest heart, soul, and spirit.

      1. Hi perse,

        Ty, and nice to see ur cute and devilish pic!

        Tho u can’t, i certainly can. Let me give u a preview of such a letter, pretending to be one of his victims:

        Dear hg,

        U vile bastard! U disgust me! Ur mind games were cruel and dark. U did it on purpose. It was not instinctual for u. It was well planned. U sicken me…

        Reference: “vile bastard” said by karen (see book ‘Fuel’ by hg tudor)

        I enjoyed this exercise.😁

      2. jenna,

        LOL! Brave woman!
        I still will not participate in this exercise, at this point. (But I won’t say never, just not at this point.)

        Thanks for the reference from ‘Fuel’. Another one for my reading wish list. I want to finish reading and reviewing the batch that is already in my reading app!
        (Funny, I just thought “I’ve got a pocketful of HG!”)

      3. Perse,

        “… pocketful of hg”

        Hehe!

        I can understand u not wanting to write such a letter tho. It’s completely understandable.

      1. I was trying to guess your real name the other day and was coming up with really funny concoctions:

        Algernon Schnickleboomer
        Kermit Backleknocker
        Marvin Toadswapper

        Were any of these accurate, my thought is, ‘Poor guy. No wonder he goes by HG.’

      2. Ha ha Bibi..I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. I love your humour! Marvin Toadswapper eh..? Ha ha! And Algernon. I love that novel Flowers for Algernon, which has nothing to do with anything.

      3. I loved that book when I was a kid.

        I pity any guy named Kermit because I would be thinking of frogs non-stop.

      4. Me too Bibi, I had to read that book in school for English class and I fell in love with it. Kermit would certainly be problematic frog wise.

      5. I always think of you looking like the actor Ed Westwick or PharmaBro Martin Shrekeli or however you spell his name. Dark handsome and dangerous. Can’t you at least give us a hint ! Dark or light eyes?? 30’s 40’s or 50’s?

      6. NA, oh yes! Ha ha.
        Miss Piggy wouldn’t be the ordinary diet for a frog; quite a hefty bite even for Kermit I would presume.

        And as to HG (leaving the conversation about frogs behind mind you) I’d guess dark and in his 40’s. Men of power usually are in their 40’s.

      7. Catherine
        HG is 6’ 1” with blond hair and blue eyes. He is a Gen-Xer, however, 3 fresh souls a day keeps him looking like he is 22. His skin and teeth: glowing and well brushed. He is a greater elite nomad narcissistic sociopath that likes to read dystopian literature. If I remember correctly, his IQ is 134 and he likes Royal Tea or Moroccan Mint Tea. He sleeps with the windows open, his Family Motto: Victoria Aut Morte, favorite band Depech mode, there are 25 hours in a Tudor day, and he enjoys eating souls for fun. Engaged twice, married once. He has never been obese nor will be. That about sums him up quite nicely, I think.

      8. K, that sums it up if you believe everything that you read?! Remember all those details came from the master himself?!😉

      9. Fool Me 1 Time
        I certainly hope HG isn’t some short, fat, bald IT guy, surrounded by empty beer cans and old pizza boxes playing a cruel joke. However, the intrigue that surrounds him is quite fun to play with.

      10. Ha ha ha…I really do enjoy the intrigue regarding your identity and I can’t resist being puckish about it, however, I really do believe that you are what you write, so I am sticking with the “HG is 6’ 1” with blond hair and blue eyes” description” I wrote to Catherine.

      11. I came here, to this blog, quite by accident, HG. However I’ve since become a fan!! Thank you, you are very special.

      12. I picture hg in his underwear and a dress shirt and tie jammin to old rap songs kind of like tom cruise jammed to rock in I think risky business or some other movie. But for hg he would change the lyrics for example the song I love it when u call me big poppa would become I love it when u call me big narcy . the song I like big buts and I cannot lie when a girl walks by with an itty bitty waist and a round thing in your face you get sprung becomes I like big empaths and I cannot lie when a girl walks by with an itty bitty waist and emotions on her face you get sprung the song ice ice baby by vanilla ice the lyrics girlies on standbye waiting just to say hi becomes girlies on the shelf Waiting just for me to say bye narc narc baby British narc narc baby if there was a problem yo I’ll cause it check out my manipulations while my coterie revolves it

      13. A chubby IT guy surrounded by beer and pizza boxes. Well, narcs are known to create a false image!

        I am just kidding, HG. I imagine you looking like a younger Ralph Fiennes.

      14. Hi K, your comment made me smile. What would you do if your beer drinking, fat IT guy description is really true? NA and others would be devastated, surely! 🤣😜😉

      15. Hello Sniglet,
        I am happy the comment made you smile! If it were true, Devastation of the Illusion comes to mind. We would all rue the golden period that the “fake HG” created and learn to navigate the emotional sea all over again. A bunch a angry empaths could be dangerous, too. I don’t think NA would take the betrayal lightly. There could be trouble.

      16. Hi k …when i first joined this blog i wondered if maybe HG was creating a facade about being good looking and successful etc but the more i read his posts he definitely is well educated.
        It isnt ridiculous to wonder bc weve been taught that greaters are the best of the narcs as far as being con men so could you imagine if HG was short fat and bald?? That would just prove how good he was at duping people. Hed has all the women flocking him without ever having to show his face.
        I take his word on who he is but your average narc out there im sure has catfished people online and created fake identities of who they are and had many hooked.
        I watched a documentary a few yrs ago and it was about this gay woman who took a guys pics and was pretending to be him. She ended up engaged to one woman for 2 yrs without her ever seeing who she was or talking to her and 10 other women she was catfishing as well. All these women were smart women but they fell for a fake online facade hook line and sinker. She faced all her victims and apologised but it really makes you stop and think. They also brought the guy on the show who was also a victim if his idebtity stolen.
        Online narcs run rampant and are lying to so many. You cant take what someone tells you as the truth until you get to know them over time and really watch them.

      17. Hello narc affair

        When I found HG on YouTube, I immediately thought he was the real deal, but, much later on, I do remember thinking (for a nanosecond) what if he was some short, fat, bald IT guy sitting in his flat having fun at the expense of others. The thought made me laugh and it wouldn’t really matter, because I was getting better each day irrespective of who “HG” is. However, I do believe he is authentic and his comments bespeak intelligence.

        Catfishing is very rampant online and people need to be prudent. A mother from upstate NY used her daughter’s photos to ensnare her prey and she ended up on the news because of it. Anything goes for fuel.

      18. Hi k,

        I do wonder abt the 6’1″, blonde hair, blue eyes. Almost sounds too perfect right? And i wonder why he wud give away his description so easily. It might allow an acquaintance frm his city, who recognizes his voice on utube, to identify him.

        Regardless, it makes no difference. As u noted, he is helping us become aware and we are becoming stronger everyday becoz of it. Since i have a lovely pic of him in my mind due to his description, discovering that he is short and bald wud not bother me i guess, becoz i already admire him. But overweight might bother me, as i feel it is important to make an effort to watch one’s weight. It wud bother my ideal image of him only. It wud not bother me regarding the resources he provides.

      19. Yes because being tall, blonde and blue-eyed really narrows it down doesn’t it?

      20. It doesn’t narrow it down completely, but it narrows itself somewhat further. Maybe in ur city, it is not v telling. But where i live in the u.s., it wud be quite telling. So, i thought of it frm such a perspective. I shud look at the demographics in ur area i think.

      21. Hg,

        Lol! I know that! What i meant was i shud realize that 6’1″, blonde, blue eyed might not narrow it down significantly in ur area of the uk.

        But i was looking at it frm my perspective, coz in my city the percentage of males with these features is not so high. Thus, again, the empath’s emotional thinking causes her to view things frm her perspective, which is not right.

      22. That made me laugh.
        Yet this is interesting reading. Tall, blonde, blue eyes could be anyone. That voice HG all it would take would be to hear it and one would know. Personally I would just smile at you and keep walking.

      23. Ha ha more like stumbling from lack of oxygen due to forgetting how to breathe, maybe you would catch me before I fell.
        In reality yes I would, unless you engaged with me, this is out of respect for you, and the work you are doing. Understanding you would know I knew is enough for me.

      24. Hi twilight,

        I wud not keep walking. I wud stare at him wide eyed, resist the urge to hug him since he hates hugs, and then i wud thank him for helping me. I may ask him if he wants to grab a coffee lol!

      25. Haha! You girls are braver than I am.. I would pretend I never saw and make a bee-line in another direction.

      26. Hi jasmine,

        “I would pretend I never saw and make a bee-line in another direction.”

        Lol! It is interesting to read the different reactions frm all of us if we were to see him (hypothetical situation of course).

      27. Hi Jenna

        I have an incredible amount of self control, now if he engaged with me or touched me it would change the dynamics. His voice affects me in a way that is hard to resist.

        Like I told him I have a deep respect for him and would never show any emotion except in my eyes for what he has done for me, now if he has decided to show the world who he is then I would be openly be grateful to him. Until then I will respect his privacy. He would know and he would understand I knew. Nothing more would be needed.

      28. Hi twilight,

        “He would know and he would understand I knew” – like a silent gesture.
        This is very cute and heartwarming☺️

      29. Jenna

        One thing I find adorable about you is hugs, I love them it is just touching another can be intense for me.

        I am glad to see you are feeling better and your consult help.

      30. Hi twilight,

        I wud hug u too if i cud but i will respect the fact that u find touching intense. 💗

      31. It definitely portrays you as a tall drink of water so to speak. If you described yourself as looking like Danny Devito, watch those comments drop off when you put through the Hush audio again.

      32. Clarece and K,

        Clarece: “If you described yourself as looking like Danny Devito, watch those comments drop off when you put through the Hush audio again.”

        😂😂😂

        K,

        After reading this, i looked for ‘hush’ on utube. I was unable to find it tho. Can anyone lead me in the right direction? K? U seem to be pretty good at finding the articles😬

      33. Hahaha..Funny!!… No, sadly, I’m used to it. I could prance around half naked and he was content to just watch. Those little pills were useless in this house. Ugh grrr. Yes, sexually frustrated is no fun. Warning signs applicable

      34. I listened to ‘hush’ audio last night. It was frightening. I did not expect to be frightened. I thought i wud be able to surpass the fear element, becoz i was able to do so when reading the ‘hush’ article. Hg, i assume this is the effect u were aiming for?

      35. Hello Jenna
        I was very happy to read that you had your consult yesterday. Depression is very serious and managing it can be very difficult; we are here for you, if you need us. HG provides excellent support and resources, as well some comic relief, so his appearance doesn’t really matter to me either.

      36. Hi k,

        Ty for expressing that sentiment. Feeling that all of u are here for me is very helpful indeed 🌸

      37. You are welcome Jenna. I am wired to make connections and I feel connected to you (even through the internet) so I do care about you. And HG post the link to Hush, so he provides the tech support.

      38. OMG “He is a Gen-Xer, however, 3 fresh souls a day keeps him looking like he is 22” you just killed me K!

      39. Ha ha ha…thank you, Carol M!
        “the 3 fresh souls a day keeps him looking like he is 22” is an actual HG quote, and I couldn’t resist using it because it was so funny. I am happy you enjoyed the comment; we all need a good laugh every now and then.

      40. Hi k…thats awful that that lady would use her daughters pic! It reminds me of this coworker yrs ago in a lodge i worked at. One night we were working together a nightshift and she started to open up about herself. She was the managers sister both were lesser narcs. She told me as she laughed she would sneak on her daughters messenger and pretend to be her to her guy friends. I was so disgusted! She was very sick. I tried to work with her as little as possible. She passed away from a heart attack a few yrs ago.
        Catfishing is very real sadly 🙁
        Ive signed my kids up for an internet safety course which imo needs to be part of the school curriculum!

      41. narc affair
        My 7-year-old is learning internet safety in school, thank god. My narcissists did all kinds of stupid crap too. And, most of them do not take care of their health (lack of accountability), so they end up getting diabetes and some have died from heart attacks-blessing in disguise-I avoid lessers like the plague! They are hideous.

      42. Lol HG…tall, blonde and blue eyed but theres your voice and profile too 👤. That makes it a bit easier 😂

      43. …and sings baritone, prefers his Vesper martini stirred, not shaken (preferring to shake his empath snowglobes NAngel imagined)
        #HGfunfact <= love that Clarece!

        I enjoyed this entire discussion, great job, K, y'all crack me up.

        I figure we'll all find out one day 🙂 but his voice is enough for me..

      44. Thank you, Nuit Étoilée! The repartee here is excellent, and I have made note of your baritone/Vesper martini/snow globe/MLA piano fun fact comment for future “HG descriptions”. After all, levity is an important part of the healing process and, I agree, his voice is more than satisfactory for now.

      45. Hi mla…your danny devito comment had me giggling. I think short guys can be cute. Dudley moore or danny devito but i agree they dont go as well with hush 😄 mind you that being said ive heard many a victim of narcissism claim they werent attracted to their narc at the beginning but then were ensnared. A short narc may be able to pull off hush afterall. Not rumplestilskin short tho lol

      46. Narc Affair and Clarece

        A guy that short would have to hush if hes stuck between my girls. Hell he may not even be able to hear me.

        I told a short narc that I would always treasure him as my first pocket narc in my farewell to him. Wish I could have seen his face. Maybe not-I would have had to bend down to see it.

      47. I would bribe Twilight to keep on walking. Meanwhile there will be my broken ankle waiting to happen in my high heels in front of you. Would you drive me to the emergency room, please?

      48. Lol i just had a funny thought at different peoples reactions if HG walked up behind them and said something 😂 youd not mistake the voice. Maybe we could have a code word like “fkn A” 😄
        If i met HG id probably introduce him to my little chihuahua 😄

  17. Now why do I have the feeling you wrote this letter to yourself. If so, it’s an insidiously good piece of reversed psychology. Hats off.

    1. This is why you should not rely on feelings and instead rely on facts and logic instead. NarcAngel wrote it, I did not.

      1. Oh, Carol M, my favourite of Hemingway is one of his last works published posthumously, “The Garden of Eden”, and it has a quote in the beginning; something about the world only existing through your own eyes? I can’t seem to remember; I’ll have to reread it. I love Hemingway and I love Marguerite Duras; the mesmerising beauty of the reality of these stories going on between the lines, I love that kind of writing.

    2. This also came to my mind, but if you pay close attention, it has the same speech style NarcAngel always comments and is a bit different of Mr. Tudor’s tone. However, there are high narcissistic traits on both. Narcissists are great writers btw, have you ever read any Heminguay’s novel? My favourite is Liev Tolstoi, though, and his Somatic Lesser Natasha Rostova has also became a ‘hero’.

      1. I’ve been to the Ernest Hemingway museum, and at the time I didn’t know much about narcissism, but he had a very troubled and tumultuous life with many wives and mistresses. I had no idea of his personal life despite being a fan of his work. It makes sense now that he was a narcissist or a narcissistic sociopath. There were many 6-toed cats roaming around his property.

        His writing and works are so clear, eloquent. I was truly surprised that he was such a troubled individual.

      2. Yes, I am a huge fan of Farewell to Arms, For Whom the Bells Toll and my favourite is The Old Man and The Sea, but as a human being Heminguay was such a ****. I recommend you the movie Gellhorn and Heminguay so you can evaluate the grade of his misogyny.

      3. Carol M,

        If you like the Russian literature, I highly recommend you to pay attention on Mikhail Lermontov’s works (19th century) – the Greater narcissist, noblemam, officer, nomad, con-artist, gambler, womanizer – “Demon”, “A hero of our time”, “A strange man”, “Two brothers”, “Arbenin”, his poetry. He even wrote a pornographic poems, that weren’t recommended for upper-class women reading (“Cavalry Junkres”)!

        Of course, he always portrayed himself in his works. His self-awarenes was very high. He mersilessly introspected himself. He knew who he was. He didn’t try to look “polished”. His real life was an endless drama. He died when he was 26 (his third duel).

        Also, if you like Leo Tolstoy, I recommend you his “Anna Karenina” work – the fascinating novel, where Leo Tolstoy described (very exactly!) the dynamic between Alexei Vronsky (narc) and Anna Karenina (borderline) to their disastrous end, and the “family dynamic” bettwen Stepan Oblonsky (narc) and his wife (very unhappy empath).

        Very interesting letter, Narc Angel, and very interesting discussion in the comments section. Very good!

      4. Thank you so very much, Noname, deeply appreciated!
        I have read Anna Karenina multiple times but right now I shall read it again paying close attention to the dynamics you listed. I like to say I can divide people in two classes, those who worship War and Peace and those who prefer Anna Karenina – I count myself among the fortunates of the second group!

  18. Hello, Narc Angel! I bow to your letter, it was about time one of the ‘HG girls’ wrote directly . May I ask one thing? It was you who picked the image or it was Mr Tudor?

  19. NA,

    Candles are less celebrated in full sunshine.

    HG has cast the darkest shadows and the brightest light on my reality. He has empowered me to become my own hero and a better mother. I find much truth in your above quote as I am learning to celebrate vs. hide my light. Thank you for sharing this letter and your gift of writing. It is uncomfortably thought provoking. Is there a reason for everything or only a justification? I don’t know.

  20. Thanks for a great letter NA! I really enjoyed it. It’s great to read ideas and perspectives that are unexpected and a little off the beaten track. They make you ponder your own views and see things in a different light. Thank you for that.

    While I am very grateful to HG for his practical help and for enlightening me about many aspects of narcissism, I also realise he is definitely not a “normal” narcissist. He is one in a million. You don’t find many like HG who openly expose themselves and admit to what they do. He is willing to assist people in understanding his kind and that is very rare.

    I often read people’s views where they praise and admire HG, even if it’s done tongue-in-cheek or with a jovial tone, and even though I know it’s done in good humour and I smile along, it still causes a bit of uneasy wariness that I can’t help feeling.

    I’ve learned that you can never trust a narcissist. They will lie, deceive, manipulate and devalue as easily and naturally as they breathe.

    They often have a lot of outward confidence and charisma and they can charm people effortlessly. This makes them seem fabulous until you really get to know them. They are masters of illusion, and it’s dangerous to give them the benefit of the doubt or dismiss the harm they’re capable of.

    As empaths, we want to trust and be open to having meaningful connections, and maybe that’s where we are at fault. We need to learn to have our eyes open to recognising the illusions we readily want to believe.

    Thank you for an interesting and original letter though.

    1. JenniferJ
      Thank you. I think good discussion does make us ponder our own views and that of others. There is no moving forward if one stays mired in hate, anger, and wallowing. I have learned much from the readers here and changed some of my views by doing exactly that-trying on their view. Thank you for your gentle warning where HG is concerned. I am in no danger and he may not admit it, but I think he knows that to be true.

  21. Ava

    I have not taken on HGs views-they are my own. I did not read the book you speak of or any others for those scenarios-they are my own. The one about drowning I posed to someone about her comments on who should be spared in the New Orleans flood and she could not answer. None of us knows HG. I was speaking to him based on the information he has given us.

    I just wanted to clarify those points. The rest of course is your personal opinion and I thank you for your input. It doesnt change my feelings but gives me another perspective and shows me how people view me and my contributions.

  22. Your letter is powerful.
    Your words are intellectually argued on so many levels.
    You are entitled to write from your perspectives, and stand behind your words, although you are aware of the different reactions to them.
    You are a very strong individual, and as a magnet super empath, not in danger of being perspecticided by a narcissist.

    I understand your words, and fully respect them, but just one question:
    – Is it not the end goal aim of any narcissist to have the empaths, or the world, to see them as necessary means of conduct, so they can justify the fuel-stream, and their prespectives and ways to gain it?

    And for the record:
    HG has saved me too😊

    1. Sunniva

      Thank you. That may be their goal but I dont care and cant change them. I can only avail myself of anything good they have to offer because they are here and not going away anytime soon. They are leaders in many fields and to think otherwise is naive. They do things for their own purposes but that doesnt mean I cannot benefit. If a surgeon comes up with a brilliant new procedure it is not to benefit the patient-it is to have the world note his brilliance and give him credit (and incidentally why they would be less likely to harm as they want to win and not appear incompetent). I doesnt mean Im not going to take advantage of that procedure if it helps me, much in the same way that HG does not provide the information here for our benefit but to secure his legacy, but I can use the information to deal with a narc boss or not to get ensnared for example. I will take what I can from them and learn what I can from them to adapt to a kinder version with those same skills instead of focusing on trying to make them happy loving people, which appears futile.

      1. NA😊
        I always salute the freedom of speech, and you are entitled to every word. I like a good discussion, and to create that, groundbreaking statements are needed.
        I’m glad that this approach to look on NPD works for you.
        I also agree with many of your fair points. When narcissists (this is often not the case) are able to conduct brilliance to benefit segments of society, it’s often for the greater good.
        I know a greater who, in my opinion, was not able to bring anything to the force of diplomacy, although it’s suppose to be his field of expertise.
        My dentist, however, is a narcissist, and I have no issues with that. He recently removed one of my wisdom teeth without any pain during, or after.
        Brilliant expertise, if you ask me.

        The danger of letting them too close, however, can always result it self in a devastating manner.
        But now we have HG to provide us with the logic needed to avoid that, as your letter verify.

      2. There are many people in the world doing wonderful things that we assume to be righteous empaths. People that we would be shocked to discover are actually narcs. The great things they do are not for our benefit but for their own recognition and gain, and no those acts do not excuse the horrible things they do, but we avail ourselves of them anyway. It is unreasonable for instance to think all firemen, policemen, or military are empaths and are in those fields to save lives exclusively, but I sure want them around willing to throw themselves into dangerous and life threatening situations for their own recognition if it saves my ass, and I bet there are many with me on that.

        I do consider comments and disagreement as discussion and invite them, but there comes a point (after oh I dont know-maybe 8 or more lengthy and repetitive posts) that hammering away at the same thing evidences something else. It has been useful though in that I will be mindful of this in future when I get passionate. Which brings me to my next point……

        I am always glad to see passion. Wether it is something I agree with or not, it indicates that person has life and fight left in them that the narcissist did not take from them.

        I just wish they would have found that voice and listened to it when they were ensnared and used it to get out.

        That is what I truly wish for you all.

  23. For what reason have you sent the letter in this way, open for discussion, instead of directly to HG?

    You are very loyal to HG, and have taken on a lot of the views he presents and his wording. But this is ALL still a mask and facade, some parts manipulative to push our buttons.

    I do agree that HG effects change, I am grateful, too. His different strategies and views are very interesting to me. But I take the “facts” with a grain of salt. How would you ever know how or who he really is?! There are lots of patchwork parts put together – ideas, words, views, … all tailored to us.

    The part about making decisions others could not – this is an idea from the book “The Good Psychopath’s Guide to Success” and others by the authors. The book does not refer to malign narcs, but to psychopaths who have no history of purposely hurting others. It underlines that it CAN be a good thing to stay calm under stress, and not make decisions affecting thousands of people out of an over-emotional state, or doing surgery while under emotional stress. Of course other people can still make logical decisions or focus on the task on hand.

    I agree with Mara, etc. that many hard core decisions would not be necessary without the psychopaths and narcs in this world in the first place.

    If we need crisis, darkness, etc. to produce the best works of art, to become spiritual, to see our light, to help others … that’s a highly philosophical question. It can certainly be a way for some people, but I personally would prefer it not to be necessary. Also, people to not seem to learn empathy by living in a narcissistic world. It is not necessary to have something/someone to fix and heal to live a good life … You really are a super empath with a co-dependent streak …. esp. in regard to HG.

    Just my personal opinion …

    1. You are spot on Ava. I saw it instantly too. And what could have effectively been said in gratitude of about 3 sentences was dressed up in a flowery show that became real clear exactly the moment Love was mentioned. The complete disregard for logic and experience was a match race with flummery running neck and neck toward at H.G at Secreteriat speeds!
      My garsh H.G! what delicious fuel you have!!!
      Narc Angel, B.t.w I was in the military, and even tho I know lots of N in service I would never put one intelligent thought into a scenario posed like that of a imaginative 13 yr old with no experience. That’s the crap that makes Rambo movies only, or if you rather reality read some sick quotes by Gen. Mattis and how he thinks killing ppl is funny or read some real stories of what female soldiers endured due to fellow male soldiers during the last 2 wars or any war to include civilian and then tell us all how you believe ANY mental behavioral disorder should be on the battle field AT ALL because they make great decisions. No they make a mess and disorder every where from with in and out.
      To N.A., I saw on here where you got after Mara telling her to grow a pair, Mara made sense you didnt. I endured sexual harassment from a N in the military and it was brushed under the rug twice and I was threatened. Would you like to explain why you feel how we need more N especially in military? That’s only a small amount of my experience with N.
      My life would have been beautiful and bountiful without every single one of them, no one deserves a life they have to repair and heal the damage created by a N parent that made you love a N partner just so you have to go through all the pain N started. So NO to the N period! They are bad juju. You can reason this all makes you stronger, but you were already made perfect and someone broke you, a N did, you do not owe ANY gratitude or flummery to any N they do not love you or care what you say because what they only hear most likely is how amazing god like they are! Stop it and focus on you and thank yourself for the things you do for yourself, HG is a hand tool and the letter you wrote was only showing him what a great appliance you are. Do you want to be a great appliance? Love yourself don’t fawn over someone that treats people horrid and please consider its quite possibly the N was put in your life to rob you of every single thing dear to you and lastly your soul. Do we need soul robbers and life destroyers, two yrs recovery here and I nearly lost it all. My spirit, my hope, my faith, my money, my pets, my home, nearly lost pets life, my kids health, nearly my job, nearly my own life and so on. Your letter almost mocks what I’ve had to live through, and everyone that agrees with your thoughtless statements seems to mock that so I know exactly what Mara and others was trying to tell you about the victims and I’m driving the point more. You identify to much with H.G to even realistically heal and I hope this msg snaps you out of it.

      1. Red

        First off-
        Two of my immediate family members in the military. One a narc and the other an empath-and female. Just goes to show you two people with similar experiences can come away with different opinions.

        Second-
        Im sorry for what you have gone through and assure you neither I or anyone here is mocking that. We all have had different experiences and are in different places of recovery and healing, but we very much understand or we wouldnt be here. You sound still very much in hurt and anger so your response is understandable.

        There are great people here who you can maybe identify better with so I hope you continue to read and contribute until you feel better.

        What I choose to take away from your post is that even though you dont care for me or my opinion, you expressed concern for me and I thank you for that.

      2. Narc Angel
        I was reading Three Strands of Empathy and you are really good at understanding another’s point of view and you exhibit patience by allowing that point of view to be articulated. Hot damn! You are a great empath.

      3. K

        I am dammit! Thanks for noticing.

        Its this Ipad I got for $50. I should have known something was up when it only had Narc font and a voice said “ Im Surly, what can I help you with?”

      4. Narc Angel

        Blame shifting now are we…..

        Don’t blame that IPad for what others want to believe.

        (I know your an Empath)

        How’s the cold in your part of the world?

  24. I honestly know that going through the last relationship, with yet another N, changed my life for the better. Despite the trauma and abuse, I see patterns and recognize danger much quicker. I’m also learning to push back.
    Its been the best most painful lesson.

  25. I love this letter NA and it was about time that someone wrote one to HG himself. I can’t imagine a better person here for that task than you; you seem to me to be strong minded and have your emotional thinking under control; still you express yourself with a big heart. I like that you see his case from both angles, stating that the world needs these kind of logical thinkers; that we all can avail ourselves from their work and from what they have to offer, that’s valid to me and that’s the HG as presented here, the only side to him that I really know of. I also like your end to the letter; that we’re more alike than we think. I guess HG might disapprove of this, but still, we’re all humans trying to get along with our conflicting views of the world and how to live our lives.
    Thank you for this letter NA!

  26. Fantastic NA. Great and well thought out letter. I hope HG responds to you. That, would also be, fantastic.

  27. “Despite debate about this, I do believe we need people like you in the world.”

    That’s like saying, “I do believe we need people who have been so terribly abused they are not able to experience love, empathy or bond with anyone in any way. We need people who see other people as mere fuel appliances and who don’t care about them or their well-being in the slightest beyond the fuel they provide. Yes, we need people who don’t give a shit about others. That will make the world a much better place.”

    Sorry, but anyone who thinks this is a good idea or makes any sense is clearly not paying attention.

    The good that HG is doing in helping us understand narcissism and put an end to the narcissistic relationships in our lives is not a reason to suggest that we need more people like him who have suffered abuse so terribly they are not able to relate to others in any way other than as things to be used in abusive narcissistic dynamics.

    No, we don’t need more people to be abused and who then abuse others. HG is a rare creature in that he is using his insight about narcissism to help others but that’s no reason to suggest we need more people who have been abused like he was, considering also that he continues to cause harm to others and to my knowledge has no intention of stopping.

    1. I agree with you ons this. If there weren’t any narcs, there wouldn’t be wars to fight nor militairy operations to perform, that made it necessary to make non-emotional decisions about. We could live in peace if we were willing to openly communicate with other people, get past ones ego and make democratic decisions that would serve the community/ country/ world.
      But this is utopia.
      Evolution gave some an empathic brain and others a non empathic one. We can strive for perfection and improve our desirable human skills, but we will never reach utopia. And if we were able to manipulate people’s brains to ‘perfection’, life would probably be unbearably boring.
      So, be not perfect, strive to be a good person, educate yourself and hang in there untill you die. It’s only about 70-80 years (on average), which is nothing compared to the billion years our universe exists.

      Thanks NA for the letter. I agree with most of it and I am also grateful for HG’s work and to have found clarity. Love you all, narcs and non-narcs, we are all human beings that have not asked to be put on this planet in the first place xx

      1. Blank,

        I’m not advocating for an utopia or for people’s brains to be manipulated to “perfection”.

        I’m simply saying that it’s most certainly not true that narcissists are better able to make tough decisions with respect to matters of war by virtue of being narcissists; namely, because narcissists don’t care about ending any war if it does not serve their interests to do so.

        They are by no means capable of making difficult decisions for the benefit of others or for “the greater good” because they only care about themselves and furthering their own agenda.

        This should be blatantly obvious to anyone who knows anything at all about sociopathic narcissism but apparently it’s not…

        Again, to say that narcissists are not better equipped to make decisions about armed conflict does not mean I’m advocating for “utopia”. It only means I disagree with the idea that we need more narcissists and that narcissists should be making those decisions.

        It’s not “utopia”. It’s common sense.

      2. Mara, take it easy. I should have written my comment like this:

        “Mara I agree with you on this.”(point made)

        Now I will give my own opinion, that is not addressed to you, Mara.

        If there weren’t any narcs… etc..

        I wasn’t thinking at all that you were advocating for an utopia. That was my story, as I often think about how we can make things ‘right’ in this world.

      3. Narc Angel,

        “Is this my letter and opinion or yours?”

        Sorry, I fail to see the point of this question. I wasn’t aware that because you wrote the letter, I wasn’t allowed to comment on it.

        “I get that youre a hater and dont agree,”

        No, actually I just disagree. Disagreeing is not hating. There is a difference.

        “and while I invite discussion-you are laboring your point on armed conflict and conveniently overlooking anything else.”

        I commented on the salient points that I found most troubling. I wasn’t aware I was supposed to comment on everything (particularly now that it appears I wasn’t supposed to comment at all).

        “I’ve got an idea: why dont you balls up and write your own letter and give your own opinion”

        Thank you for the kind suggestion.

        “instead of attacking and hijacking someone elses with yours?”

        Again, disagreement is not attacking.
        I thought the point of posting the letter was for us to comment. But I realize now that by commenting the only acceptable thing for you was compliments.

        “I have nothing further to say to you but look forward to your own letter with interest.”

        Thank you. For the record, you are welcome to disagree with anything I comment or write provided you give substantive reasons as to why you disagree. I won’t think you’re a “hater” if you do.

        Regards,

    2. Mara

      Im sorry that your interpretation took you in this direction. It was not what I intended at all, but people will go where they want with it. For example: When I said “anything else you require to feel complete is for you to resolve and not my concern” I meant that in dealing with narcs, that I would not provide them with the negative fuel etc they feel they require-not that I didnt care about their victims. The wishing to appease no one meaning that I expected backlash but would not change my opinions or feelings to cater. Isnt that what we have all done with the narcs in our life and had enough of? In any case, that is the beauty of differing opinions-to take us where we might not have gone otherwise.

      Thank you for your input.

      1. Narc Angel,

        Thank you for clarifying.

        “Im sorry that your interpretation took you in this direction. It was not what I intended at all, but people will go where they want with it”

        Yeah, if you state: “I do believe we need people like you in the world”, people are going to “go where they want with it” and “interpret” that you are saying we need more narcissists in the world, with all of what that involves. Imagine that.

        I’m sorry you write stuff the implications of which you don’t intend or consider.

      2. Mara

        No where did I advocate that we need MORE narcissists in the world. It is a fact that they are here though and many are responsible for decisions and things you benefit from everyday. You are adding things to support your anger and bolster support from others. Dont make what isnt there.

      3. Narc Angel,

        You said to HG: “I do believe we need people like you in the world.”

        You then proceeded to refer to considerations that in your view apply to narcissists. If you were not talking about narcissists when you said to HG that we needed more people like him, then I have no idea what you are trying to say.

        “You are adding things to support your anger and bolster support from others. Dont make what isnt there.”

        I’m not “adding” anything and I don’t care if anyone supports me here or not. I expressed disagreement with the idea that narcissists are in a better position to make difficult decisions with respect to armed conflict and I explained why I disagreed.

        That’s it.

      4. Mara

        Is this my letter and opinion or yours? I get that youre a hater and dont agree, and while I invite discussion-you are laboring your point on armed conflict and conveniently overlooking anything else. If you are from a war torn country my apologies.

        I’ve got an idea: why dont you balls up and write your own letter and give your own opinion in it instead of attacking and hijacking someone elses with yours?

        I have nothing further to say to you but look forward to your own letter with interest.

        NA

      5. Well thank you for finally acknowledging what you predicated your whole argument on.

      6. Narc Angel,

        “Well thank you for finally acknowledging what you predicated your whole argument on.”

        No, actually this was my argument, which had nothing to do with my misreading your not saying, “more” (I’m copy-pasting):

        “The idea presented in this letter that sociopathic narcissists are necessary or better equipped to make decisions that may lead to an end of armed conflict is very poorly argued. (…)

        First of all, sociopathic narcissists don’t give a damn about ending any war if doing so does not serve their interests.

        To think that they are better equipped to make decisions that lead to peace or for “the greater good” is to be completely oblivious to the fact that narcissists don’t care about anyone but themselves.

        In fact, the state of the world today indicates that there are already ***plenty*** of people in positions of power who are in fact sociopathic narcissists. That’s part of the reason why the world we live in is such a horrible place for millions of people.”

        With respect to your saying we needed people like HG, here is my previous response corrected, taking into account that you did* say we needed people like HG but not more* of them. Thank you again for clarifying:

        ” “Despite debate about this, I do believe we need people like you in the world.”

        That’s like saying, “I do believe we need people who have been so terribly abused they are not able to experience love, empathy or bond with anyone in any way. We need people who see other people as mere fuel appliances and who don’t care about them or their well-being in the slightest beyond the fuel they provide. Yes, we need people who don’t give a shit about others. That will make the world a much better place.”

        Sorry, but anyone who thinks this is a good idea or makes any sense is clearly not paying attention.

        The good that HG is doing in helping us understand narcissism and put an end to the narcissistic relationships in our lives is not a reason to suggest that we need people like him who have suffered abuse so terribly they are not able to relate to others in any way other than as things to be used in abusive narcissistic dynamics.

        No, we don’t need people to be abused and who then abuse others. HG is a rare creature in that he is using his insight about narcissism to help others but that’s no reason to suggest we need people who have been abused like he was, considering also that he continues to cause harm to others and to my knowledge has no intention of stopping.”

    3. NA, are you suggesting, in your letter, that narcs are the only ones who can make logical choices, that they have a place in the world because they “can assess these situations quickly with hard logic-not blinding emotion” in a way that non-narcs can’t? Personality-disordered narcs with toxic logic who believe that people are constantly jealous of them and out to sabotage them (because that is how they feel and that is what they do)? Do you really believe that there are decisions that are best made by narcs? In your eyes, are empaths such emotional twits who can’t separate emotion from logic? Empaths who have highly successful careers as doctors, lawyers, teachers, nurses, scientists, engineers, etc…..make emotional decisions in every aspect of their lives? Not that they just have emotional issues and severe emotional thinking after having been manipulated and abused by a narcissist, but that they can’t even separate their personal and professional lives? And what about the ‘normal people’ (non-narc and non-empaths) who also excel in these professions and don’t abuse other people because they never suffered abuse. I understand this letter is your opinion, but I can certainly see how it could be inflammatory, particularly the condescending tone with which empaths’ emotional character is addressed. What I think we need is people who can make data-driven decisions, which by their very nature are logical in nature – a nontoxic logic that cannot be disputed, that is supported by data. And that is not unique to narcs. Of course you don’t have to in an opinion piece, but if you are going to suggest that narcissists are better at making those types of decisions than anyone else, I would love to see some data that supports that conclusion. Otherwise, it is purely a fiction.

      Now HG is another matter of course. I am truly grateful for the help he has given me. And he has chosen a path for which he is uniquely qualified as a narcissist – describing the behavior of a narcissist. I think it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for a non-narc to provide the kind of insight that he provides. Certainly there are exceptions to every rule, and narcissists have put much beautiful art and literature into the world, but true personality-disordered narcissists are broken, fragmented individuals. My heart goes out to them for the pain they have endured, and they certainly never deserved that. But after learning what I have from HG about narcissists, and having worked with lying manipulative narcissists in some of the above-mentioned fields, unless I see some cold-hard facts, I cannot agree that narcs are better equipped than anyone else at making logical decisions.

      Do empaths really believe that are a beacon of light? That sounds more narc-like to me. Most of the empaths I know would be content to live a quiet, peaceful existence free of abuse.

      1. No, I am not suggesting that.

        My letter was addressed to HG (as we know him to be, because we all dont really know anyone here-empaths included), who is clearly educated and intelligent, self-aware, and has found a way to help others in acheiving his own goals. If we have to deal with narcissists in this world (and we do, because any discussion about living in a narc-free world is purely fantasy and of course we all want that), then I prefer those of HGs calibre.

        No one is suggesting the world would benefit from Lessers in decision making positions or positions of power, nor am I advocating that narcs are the only ones who can make logical decisions (that is emotional thinking taking a leap), just that they have exceptional drive and are risk takers for their own benefit and recognition which often results in pioneering new innovation that we can all benefit from. Yes, i know that will likely result in angry claims that they make bad ones too, and while true, it can be said that Empaths do also. To assume that they all make bad decisions automatically to harm people given the chance is ludicrous, or that they are all the wife-beater wearing, physical abuser slugs of the Lesser variety. How would they get to the top of their field and get that recognition if they are all out maiming everyone in their path? Im sure many of them are your favourite entertainers as well as your doctors, teachers……

        Narcissists are here. Fact. And judging by the entitled, selfie-taking generation coming up-not going away anytime soon. In the nature vs nurture debate, one could argue that some are resulting from being raised by (gasp) empaths who have indulged them inadvertently with their pure intention of sheilding them from any pain or cruelty in the world. It appears the previous generation did not warn us sufficiently.

        I do not think empaths are twits. Do you believe all of those who found something in my letter that they appreciated or that resonated with them are twits? I do believe empaths have difficulty separating fact from logic and can be overly conflicted sometimes when making decisions. That is evidenced to me by many here who have admitted being lured slowly and further into the clutches of their narcissist despite warning signals within themselves that they admit to after, and their inability to get out and stay out. Also in the emotional maelstrom that has resulted from my letter. How dare I not gnash, and wail about injustice at their hands, and
        shine the spotlight in another corner for just a minute.

        Much in the same way you want proof that some narcissists cannot make some good decisions (and I never said better or always btw-just that sometimes they can make them where others may be conflicted by emotion) that benefit the greater good, I could ask for proof that they do not. We could not really prove that on either side though because we cannot always know who is and who is not a narcissist.

        I was acknowledging in my letter that while no one should be abused (we should not forget that he was-we are empaths after all are we not?), that some good did come from it in that he is helping others (yes I know-not his goal) and to encourage that side of his disorder. He already knows he is a bastard and I acknowledged that so that seemed redundant. It is not a love letter as someone suggested. That is someone interpreting it as such and projecting their own feelings about it, but I see how emotional thinking can suggest that.

        I am advocating that perhaps they will see that there is a better route to recognition and legacy in the helping of others, that we avail ourselves of any good they produce while giving them a wide berth, and perhaps not inviting them into our beds.

        Whatever one feels about or interprets from my letter, let me be clear:

        I have suffered at their hand and I now bend to no ones will because of it. I do not want others to suffer. I want them to see that they have the power and not the narcissist in their lives. Take it.

      2. Thanks, NA. I appreciate your response. I think the clarity you provided is important because, to me, it did not come through in the original letter in some spots. I in no way advocate getting rid of narcs. I, too, would like to learn how to stay out of their bed and live in greater harmony with them because they are everywhere – HG, if you are listening, how about an article about how to influence narcs in a professional environment, like say, e.g., if you are trying to gain support for an idea or some legislation and you know that there are a number of narcs on the panel – how might you persuade them to see your point of view (is it really all about showing them what’s in it for them?).

        Anyway, on some points, however, we just have to agree to disagree. I do not feel that there is enough data to support that narcs (personality-disordered narcs) are good candidates for making those tough decisions in life or death situations just because they can make decisions quickly or they don’t have remorse or they take risks. These decisions should be made by good leaders, and narcs, at the very least, do not have the emotional intelligence or empathy to be good leaders. Sure, some can mimic but it is in no way sustainable. I have worked with many narcs – I have worked with them on teams, I’ve been a direct report, and they have been at all levels of the organizations I’ve worked for. I am delighted to say that I have also worked with a large number of non-narcs. You wrote, ‘How would they get to the top of their field and get that recognition if they are all out maiming everyone in their path’ – I’m afraid that is a rather naive sentiment. Every narc I have worked with has been manipulative in some way to further his career (or her career because there have been female narcs in the mix, too). Every one has either lied, used people to get ahead, abused people in the workplace, mishandled funds, passed off someone else’s hard work or ideas as his own, stolen ideas, purposefully gone out of their way to sabotage someone else’s work so that their work is not funded or more highly praised, misrepresented, manufactured, or lied about data, etc. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. For some, these attributes present themselves immediately, others are better at hiding it, but they come out eventually. Narcs are not healthy people. They do not have the self-confidence to let other people be successful without being severely envious UNLESS there is something in it for them. And that ability to make risky decisions you touted – well, I have, on more than one occasion, seen narc CEOs lead entire companies in directions that have led to severe financial loss because of ‘the risky decisions’ they made – a journey that could have easily been avoided if they had just listened to the advice of their employees and advisers instead of insisting they knew better. Quite frankly, narcs are irritating (to put it mildly) in the workplace – always out for themselves. The most interesting, most creative, most successful people to work with are the non-narcs – they accept criticism without firing people, they welcome being challenged, they enjoy listening to other people’s opinions and suggestions, they want to see the projects succeed based on the best approaches not just their approaches, they create good team environments, they help the team in any way they can, etc. Yes, there are exceptions to every rule, and no one is denying that non-narcs also fail and make their share of poor decisions. I would be very interested to know if anyone has done a study on if the reasons for these failures differ among narcs and non-narcs.

        I have written nothing in my responses to even suggest that I thought anyone with emotions was a twit. And regarding this comment – “Also in the emotional maelstrom that has resulted from my letter. How dare I not gnash, and wail about injustice at their hands, and
        shine the spotlight in another corner for just a minute.” – the few people that spoke up in disagreement with what you said, I did not sense that they were acting with an ego or were in any way frustrated that you were shining the light on HG in your letter. They really weren’t looking to you to be their spokesperson against narc abuse. They weren’t interested in you saving them or denouncing narcs, but, particularly if they were quite raw from a recent engagement with a narc, they had a hard time swallowing the same comments I did. Narcs are liars, manipulators, abusers, and they are like that in ALL areas of their lives. To forget that is to be at a disadvantage. These few individuals were just disagreeing with you – I am surprised that more people didn’t disagree with that statement. Perhaps they expressed it more emotionally than logically, but there is really no data to support some of the statements you made. It is extremely difficult, through email/text, to get a sense of the degree of irritation or sarcasm or frustration in their comments, and what you may sense as hostility, I might not. You often write logically, which may come off to some as being devoid of emotion. Perhaps you don’t mean it that way. I expect for many people here, they welcome a more human-touch and appreciate emotion, and there is nothing wrong with needing that, too.

        NarcAngel, you are well-liked and respected on this blog, and I expect in the time you have been on here, you have amassed your own little following (not like HG’s of course, but it is clear that there are people who look forward to your comments). You have made me laugh many times. Certainly you can state your opinion, as can the rest of us. Sometimes your responses to comments, such as to some of the individuals who raised concerns about some of your claims in this letter, come through as aggressiveness, which sets off warning bells in my head. When someone does that it makes me think he is trying to deflect attention away from his claims or positions because they are not really in any way substantiated. Perhaps you were not trying to do that. I don’t know you at all, so I can’t tell. These are good discussions to have. I personally rarely get involved in discussions, but this one drew me in. But we are not always going to agree, and there is nothing wrong with that.

  28. The idea presented in this letter that sociopathic narcissists are necessary or better equipped to make decisions that may lead to an end of armed conflict is very poorly argued. I hardly understood the logic behind it and the scenarios presented didn’t make any sense to me in terms of how they support this view.

    First of all, sociopathic narcissists don’t give a damn about ending any war if doing so does not serve their interests.

    To think that they are better equipped to make decisions that lead to peace or for “the greater good” is to be completely oblivious to the fact that narcissists don’t care about anyone but themselves.

    In fact, the state of the world today indicates that there are already ***plenty*** of people in positions of power who are in fact sociopathic narcissists. That’s part of the reason why the world we live in is such a horrible place for millions of people.

    Second, while I am very grateful to HG that he has helped me understand and free myself from my narcissistic dynamic, I don’t forget that he is someone who does some serious damage to other people (his books such as Evil make that more than clear). In fact, I’d say that although we’ve dealt with narcissists, very few of us have experienced the great damage a narcissist like HG is capable of inflicting on his victims, as he has stated that he is a sociopathic narcissist who is also sadistic. Not all narcissists are sadistic, apparently.

    Frankly, I find this statement disturbing: “Anything else you require to feel complete is for you to resolve and not my concern” as it shows an outstanding lack of empathy for his victims. It appears that the writer of this letter is basically interested in how HG helps and benefits her and dismisses the harm he does to his victims by merely shrugging her shoulders saying, “It’s not my concern”.

    “I wish to appease no one.”

    I don’t wish to be “appeased” and don’t care to “appease” you either. I think your “argument” about sociopathic narcissists being better suited for ending armed conflict made no sense at all and overall reflects a profound lack of understanding of the state of the world and how narcissists function.

    This letter was also deeply lacking in empathy for the victims involved, not just in armed conflict but also HG’s.

    To my mind, an empath did not write this. That’s all.

    1. Mara,

      I love you…

      Thank you for your honesty and boldness. I guess you ” grew a pair”.

      Appears to be more like a
      admirer, fan, or dear Stan letter.

      1. Yolo
        Interesting. You admire honesty and boldness. When it aligns with your thinking that is.

      2. I hate to interject here.. But he could neen seen as great -substitution~ for our own narcs. A HELL of a lot safer. In my situation anyway …. It’s definitely crossed my mind… ..

      3. Hi jasmine,

        I kind of ‘use’ hg (and the blog) as a substitution too. It is safer than the real narc in our lives since we know hg won’t devalue us. And hg being a greater, it is kind of exciting.

      4. Exactly Jenna. No devalue, no Hoover triggers, no physical abuse, or ANY abuse… plus the added bonus of interacting with other survivors.
        A chance to heal and grow. I’ve learned a lot about myself, just from reading the comments. ❤

      5. Hi jasmine,

        I need to be careful tho. Following my recent audio consult with him, i find myself drawn to him again. That voice, damn!

      6. Jenna, Lol! That’s why I think I might be better with an email consult! I have definitely thought of that!

      7. Jasmine,

        Lol!

        I can assure u that nothing compares to an audio consult. In fact, last wk i was suicidal. I no longer am. If it means i will find his voice alluring, so be it. Not all of us are so emotional tho😉

        He is very informative, professional, and replies according to ur specific situation. It will give u a sense of clarity beyond and above an email consult.

      8. Jasmine

        HG is professional with either of the consults, yet his voice is mesmerizing.
        Consulting with him provides insights specifically cater to you situation, I personally prefer audio because we can go more into detail.

      9. Twilight, thank you for the review. 🙂
        ( My e-mail program sent most of my mail to spam yesterday, so I am playing catch-up). I did book the consult. Now time to make a list.. I imagine I’ll forget everything once that phone starts ringing..

      10. Jasmine

        You will be fine.
        He really is very professional about things. His voice has a calming effect to. Which helps when one wants to convey an emotional situation. His assessments are accurate.

      11. Thank you for the honest reply. ❤
        I’m so sorry you were suicidal 😞 I know how that feels. I was for a bit- during devaluation. It was hell… compounded by the fact: I reached out to him. On 4 separate occasions. The responses were just as bad as my inner turmoil. Just blank… a whole lot of nothingness. *hugs to you my dear 💞 This can be overcome! XO

      12. Hi jasmine,

        Ty and hugs back to u. I hope u never have to go thru suicidal ideation again. It’s such a hopeless feeling. But hg got me out of it!

  29. HG, my appreciation also is boundless. Honestly. However, NA, I would point out though that in your military operation, dying baby and surgeon examples, an N would do what is most beneficial to him/herself and most likely to achieve the primary aims, particularly fuel for him/herself. If an N surgeon found more fuel in inflicting suffering than lessening it, he/she would inflict. More fuel in swapping the brother for the baby. Bye bye, Baby.
    I too VERY much appreciate the unemotional, clear-of-vision perspective of an N. I miss having access to my N for this very reason. However, I think it’s dangerous to say that N logic, though important to strongly consider, necessarily bends toward the societal good or moral (if distasteful) choice. What I find more admirable actually is their ability to ACT without doubt, feeling or favor once they’ve decided what serves themselves best. THAT is the kind of Narc I want to be when I grow up!

    1. J
      Yes, the ability to act immediately and instinctively and not be frozen or locked with emotion was the point.

      1. NA, I admire honesty regardless to whom the source. I read this comment prior to reading any others and I know you are the first to say grow some balls .

        I don’t mind anyone disagreeing with my comments. Most of my post have little substance and I really dont try to make points or prove myself.

        You didn’t understand why I posted the who is ? Comment. I thought it was relevant and think i had to expand upon it, Jasmine did and she was correct.

        Then you morphed into an OWL…..who is he, who is his muse? Who..who.. who. Who dares to claim that title that noone gives a toot about.

        I thought it was rather weird or odd that you would write a letter to a potential fictional character instead of sharing your real life experience. Unless, this is your real life. Especially, after insinuating he was capable of stealing crumbs from posters after he’s given so much.

        I would forego a pair of shoes or 5.00 cup of coffee to help others in need of additional guidance through a consult. I am not rich no where near. However, when i read real letters like Danny and so many other’s it kills a apart of me.

        I have HG website as my website as of yesterday. H.G. please don’t sue me.

        I applaud Mara and Ava for keeping it real. H.G. has served his purpose on my life and so have many other contributors. No need for me to come here and seek validation.

        Grow some empathy or fly there’s only room for Narc here and thats H.G.

  30. Well said, NA. The letter is a terrific sentiment to H G Tudor. By the way I do not find your letter a distasteful display of fawning over H G at all.

  31. An amazing letter NA! I wouldn’t expect anything from one as gifted and intelligent as you. I always enjoy your comments.
    HG congratulations you’ve surpassed the 800,000,000 and continue to move forward on educating the world about narcissists! 🍻

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