Little Acons – No. 12

THATNEVERHAPPENED

A series of memes which encapsulates the mind set of the narcissistic parent towards their child resulting in the creation of the Adult Child of a Narcissist.

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70 thoughts on “Little Acons – No. 12”

    1. NarcAngel,

      I had problems with some notifications after using another browser. No new notifications in the WP notification panel (bell), except for those from HG. I do receive all notifications by email, though.

      What helps is to reactivate your WP account by clicking Confirm Now.
      You need your first email from WP when you created your account:

      Subject: Activate [your username].

      “Welcome to WordPress.com. Please click the button below to confirm your email address and activate your account”

      Button -> Confirm Now

      1. E.B

        Thank you. am such a Techtard and you were most helpful previously when I had issues, so I was able to resolve them. I have a WordPress account but I get all of the blog articles and comments in my email. For a time now I have been getting HGs articles in my regular email and any comments or responses in my junk or spam. Also when I make a comment and click to be notified of further activity it no longer takes me to WordPress to confirm as it used to. I’ve been over the settings on both email and WordPress to no avail. I no longer have that first email from when I activated WordPress. Haha, I guess I’ll just bumble along until I cant get any access at all at which point (gauging from the more frequent hateration I experience in response to some of my comments) I wont be expecting a party in my honour.

      2. Hi NarcAngel,

        Please let me know what email account you are using for WP (Gmail, Yahoo…) and I will write down all the steps.

        “I have been getting HGs articles in my regular email and any comments or responses in my junk or spam. Also when I make a comment and click to be notified of further activity it no longer takes me to WordPress to confirm as it used to. ”

        It sounds like your emails are being filtered as Spam according to some *words* or *phrases* because all comments, subscribe and posts notification emails come from the same WP email address.

        You will have to log into your email account on the internet and add email addresses AND domains to your WhiteList, also called SafeSendersList or something similar.

        But if you have Gmail, you will have to create a new *Filter*. But this does not mean it will work properly either. Gmail block emails from safe senders if they include certain words or phrases. This is one of the reasons why I avoid it.

        How to add a whitelist to Gmail:
        https://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-to-add-a-whitelist-to-gmail/

        Domains:
        @wordpress.com
        @narcsite.com

        Email addresses:
        wordpress@narcsite.com
        donotreply@wordpress.com
        (I suggest you include HG’s email address for consultations.)

        Plus you will have to include *words and phrases* in the filter, if you have Gmail.

        From: “Knowing the Narcissist”
        Subject: “Subscribe” OR “comment”

        I prefer using Microsoft (Outlook/Hotmail/Live) or Yahoo accounts.

        1-Log into your account.

        2-Go to Mail Settings –> Options –> Junk email:

        Safe Senders: … (include WP emails and domains)

        3-Save changes.

        That’s all.

        I create filters to block hoovers from those who try to contact me using accounts I do not know about.

        “I guess I’ll just bumble along until I cant get any access at all at which point (gauging from the more frequent hateration I experience in response to some of my comments) I wont be expecting a party in my honour. ”

        You are well-liked and appreciated here, NA. Your comment was misunderstood. This happened to me several times. Recently, two of my comments were misunderstood by two different readers. They meant I said things that I did not write and that I would have never suggested to anyone. It happens.
        Since narcissistic women are passive-aggressive and we have to deal with them regularly in real life, new readers who do not know us yet may feel triggered by our comments at the beginning. My words and intentions are deliberately twisted by narcissists looking for fuel in real life but I do not take it personally when I am misunderstood by nons on this blog.

        Thank you for your last reply, NA. I will write to you again.

  1. E.B

    I’m sorry to hear that you have been subject to this in your workplace as we spend considerable time there. Having said that-dealing with them at work is my jam! There are several ways I am able to affect them but without specific situations and information that I understand you cannot give, it is difficult to say if any of them would assist you. Have you consulted with HG on this? I’m sure no one could give you better information on how to navigate shark infested waters than the Great White himself.

    1. Just for the record, NarcAngel, ‘no-one’ is trying to give better information 😉

      If you look back at my comments about how I generally deal with people at work, I have actually mentioned the tactics that HG recommends, that is, no contact, using logic, and how to avoid being a sitting target.

      We are all free to comment here without feeling the need to justify what we say to you or anyone else. Thank you for your concern though.

      1. WiserNow

        I was truly shocked to read your comment to me. I was referring to HG being able to provide better information to EB than I could, given that she could not discuss specifics on the blog. You or anything you offered was not even in the equation. I had to actually read the thread again to see what you were referring to. Thanks for assuming the worst of me though-thats always helpful.

    2. Hi NarcAngel,

      Thank you so much for your concern. I am glad to hear that dealing with narcissists at work is not a problem for you. I wish I were like you. Fortunately, I do not have to go that place anymore. I want to protect my privacy here since anyone can read this blog (worldwide). It has nothing to do with you or with other readers.
      I appreciate your help very much. I would like to ask you some questions in the next days. Thank you once again.

      1. E.B

        Im glad to read that you are no longer in that particular environment, but of course the likelihood that we will cross their path again in another workplace is great. The good thing about a new place is that you can establish new rules and boundaries from the start with what you have learned from the last place of employ, so I hope that things will be easier for you now. I completely understand your reluctance to be too specific on here with scenarios. I have that concern also and its the only reason I asked if you had consulted privately-to be able to speak freely and get the information to form an action plan without concern of exposure.

    3. Hi NarcAngel,

      Thank you once again for your kind comments. Yes, I have consulted with HG about group bullying and the narcissists who target(ed) me and it was very helpful. There is a vindictive narcissist who lives next door and has been trying to destroy me all over the years. She smears me to anyone who knows me. Someone told me he had seen this woman at the workplace during the night shift, although she does not work there (!). There are other things that prove this is true, that she was there. It is scary. She must have been the one who smeared me to the narcissist at the workplace and then the latter to the rest of the group. By the time you notice you are being shunned, it is too late. No matter what you do, people will not be willing to change their minds. The only thing we can do is to protect ourselves the best we can but we will not be able to stop the damage. I have a question, if you wish to answer: What would you do if you noticed that your work colleagues shun you except for the narcissist and her Lieutenant? (The narcissist treats you disrespectfully and the aggressive Lieutenant lashes out at you.)

      Please let me know if you need help with the notifications. I wrote you about it in a separate comment. It is still in moderation.

      1. EB
        Just wrote you a lengthy reply and when I hit post comment I got message 403: Denied. Something about their servers saying I am not supposed to be here. Checking now to see if this comment gets through.

      2. NA,

        Thank you for letting me know about your long reply but I cannot see it yet and I did not receive any email notification.

        My other comment on notifications I sent you yesterday is still in moderation.

      3. EB
        The long post did not go through and disappeared into thin air as Error 403 from WordPress. Figures all the other comments since have gone through but not the long one. I’ll try to remember what I covered and post again. I see your email instruction post now and am about to read. Thank you.

      4. NA,

        Error 403 = Access forbidden.
        Were you were trying to hack the WP server, NA?? 🙂

        I know how annoying it is when comments disappear, especially the long ones. You can write another time, NA. This has happened to me before and I decided to save a copy just in case (long comments only).
        Since I do not have access to high-speed broadband, pages cannot fully load. Controls like text/check boxes and buttons are missing. I have to reload a page until the controls I need show up.

      5. NA,
        My long comment about notifications ‘awaiting moderation’ is gone and I cannot see your long reply either.

  2. Hi E B,

    Thank you for your message. I am glad that you are not in that difficult work environment any more. The group bullying would have been extremely difficult to endure. I feel for you and I’m sorry you experienced that.

    Thank you also for your explanation of collective bullying and group psychology. You made it very clear and I understand you. It is true that narcissists have the ability to manipulate groups and make the individuals convinced strongly of a certain belief. They are persistent and patient and able to con people psychologically. I’ve seen it happen in different situations so I know what you mean. It is impossible to fight against this group dynamic in a direct way. The more you appeal to the group for their collective compassion, understanding, or support, the less likely they are to give it. It’s almost like the group feels it is asserting it’s own strength and “rightness” the more the more the individuals stick together. It’s a strange and complex dynamic and it takes over the common sense of individuals.

    When you are the target or the scapegoat of a group that is controlled in this way by a narcissist, the target needs to find a way to survive. I guess we are on the same page but looking at it from different angles. Yes, the group psychology aspect is a particular ‘truth’ that does exist. The collective bullying is done by all kinds of individuals who have been convinced that it is the right thing to do. And yes, the target or victim is in a very difficult position. I agree with you.

    I guess I was considering how the individual target needs to think in order to survive this kind of situation. If you can’t get out and need to stay in that environment, you need to adapt in some way. To adapt and still retain some inner integrity of your ‘self’, I feel that you would need to develop a defense strategy even if it’s purely in your own mind. I guess this is why I said you have to keep telling yourself things to strengthen your own inner defences and keep telling yourself that you have less to fear than your emotions would have you believe.

    Anyway, it’s a subject we both understand and have seen, we don’t need to convince each other of it 🙂

    I think the collective bullying or group psychology is detrimental in the long run to the group itself too. It’s built on a false sense of power and does not benefit the health or prosperity of all the individuals inside that group. I think that kind of group is doomed to fail in the long run.

    Thank you for asking about my notifications and for offering to help E B. That is kind of you. I have turned them off on purpose because I don’t comment very frequently and I keep track of the few comments I do make. Otherwise my addiction to HG and this blog would get out of hand 😉 😉 😉

    1. Hi WiserNow,

      I really appreciate your time, help and advice. Although it was not possible for me to explain the group dynamics in detail, you were able to understand what is going on. Yesterday I received the following quote:

      “If a lie is repeated often enough, it does not become truth, but it becomes reality.” – Hannah Arendt (1906–1975)

      The original quote attributed to Joseph Goebbels is “Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth.”

      A relative of mine who was a narcissist used to tell me: It is not what you do but *How* you do it (when manipulating people). Scary.

      I had to laugh when I read the reason why you decided to turn the notifications off 🙂

      Thank you once again, WiserNow. Good luck and best wishes! 🙂

      1. Hi E B,

        Those quotes are scary. It is exactly what narcissists try to do though. Their agenda is to create a ‘reality’ out of lies in order to manipulate and control. That is indeed scary.

        Thanks for your message and you are most welcome. Talking about the effects of narcissism with other people on this blog is very thought-provoking and also helpful in reducing the power and influence of narcissistic people (even if only just a little bit).

        The quotes you mention about lies becoming reality actually do happen and we can all see that clearly in cases such as the holocaust which was a devastating event on a huge scale.

        Your comments about group dynamics raise an interesting point for me. All of us are both individuals as well as smaller parts of a larger ‘group’. In that way, we are all able in some way to take part in and influence the group dynamics within that group.

        There is something to be said, I believe, for individuals to question the truth of the circumstances they find themselves in whenever it is possible. Silence, apathy and fear are as much to blame for “lies becoming truth” as is active manipulation.

        It’s easier for individuals to voice their opposition when the lies are small and have less power, because when they are bigger lies that influence a larger group it can be virtually impossible to turn the tide.

        Thank you very much for your comments as well and you’re most welcome. It’s a pleasure to communicate with you. All the best to you too 🙂

      2. Hello WiserNow,

        Thank you very much for your thoughtful reply.

        Yes, it is an interesting subject. There are different reasons why people behave like sheep. One of them is survival. Human beings are social beings and they can only survive in groups. Being ostracized from a group could mean death (social death). Narcissists know this and take advantage of it.

        “It’s easier for individuals to voice their opposition when the lies are small and have less power, because when they are bigger lies that influence a larger group it can be virtually impossible to turn the tide. ”

        Exactly. The bigger the lie *and* the more it goes against the Target’s nature, the more it is believed. People wrongly believe that nobody would slander someone if there was not a grain of truth in it. Another problem is that many people do not want to *admit that they were wrong*, not even when faced with evidence supporting the target, since that would mean they are Abusers too. People like to think of themselves as all-good, decent people incapable of abusing others, not even indirectly. Good people can do bad things too. All of us have believed narcissistic people’s lies at least once in our lives.

  3. E.B.

    Thank you for your message and your good wishes. It’s lovely to meet you too 🙂

    I understand what you’re saying and it sounds like you work with women who are aggressive, abusive, immature and selfish. It can be very difficult and there is often no way to reason with them or work with them productively. Like you say, “some people are not interested in solving anything at all”. I am very sorry that you are in this difficult situation.

    Another strategy I didn’t mention earlier is that, when possible, I try to develop good relationships with people who are not narcissistic and who are easier to work with. If this is possible in your case and your work is a large organisation, this may help you to have other people to talk and work with and could reduce the amount of time you spend with the narcissistic ones.

    You say you are being targeted and verbally attacked. If this kind of behaviour is considered “normal” or acceptable, it’s a terrible way to work and spend a large part of your daily life in and around. It’s not something that you can get used to, nor should you. Looking ahead, would it be better for you in the long run to look for another job, either in another department, or totally outside of your current workplace?

    Rather than spend each day with difficult people who you don’t get along with and where “no contact” is not an option, it might be better in many ways to look for a different job rather than tolerating a hostile work environment.

    You could give yourself time to look for another job, be as selective as possible, and try to be aware of what the people are like before you commit to a new employer.

    The aggressive people at your job will not change and if they are conducting a smear campaign against you, it will only cause further stress for you. Unfortunately, the best strategy of all is no contact. You could try to learn to live with your current situation, but you shouldn’t have to accept abuse and smear campaigns. You deserve much better.

    Keep telling yourself that it’s not about who you are and it’s not your fault. It is all about them and their personalities. Good luck to you! 🙂

    1. Hi WiserNow,

      Thank you so much for your kind reply. Yes, these women are very aggressive and it seems to be broadly accepted in the country I am living in. In ALL these cases the group and other onlookers like to stand there and watch. This behaviour would be considered anti-social where I come from. Please excuse me that I do not want to give more details.

      “I try to develop good relationships with people who are not narcissistic and who are easier to work with. ”

      This is what I used to do too. I gave up. When narcissists smear me, the group turns against me. Janice Harper writes about group psychology and collective aggression in her book Mobbed. Once a target has been singled out, other people will be aggressive to the same individual they know and they once liked or admired. The longer the attack goes on, more people in the group turn into aggressors.

      In most cases but not all, I found out that some of these narcissists see me as a threat and they are afraid to be exposed. In one particular case, one of them succeeded in getting me out of the workplace because she did not want me to witness things that were happening there. Narcissists deliberately cause distress to weaken their target mentally, emotionally and physically. They do it to prevent him/her from thinking rationally and from taking the necessary steps. You will be surprised what apparently decent people try to hide.

      “It’s not something that you can get used to, nor should you… ”

      You are right. Even if I tried to, I would not be able to put up with the daily abuse anymore. I was so sick I had to be hospitalized. Part of my life has been destroyed but I was able to restore my health and I am working on other areas too.

      Thank you once again for your concern and helpful advice, WiserNow.

      Good luck to you too! 🙂

      1. E B,

        It sounds like the narcissistic behaviour at your work is openly considered to be “normal” where you live. It’s sad that the more empathic people in your group have been so stifled and discouraged that no-one is willing to resist and stand against this kind of abuse.

        Even though you say “the other onlookers like to stand and watch”, I don’t believe that EVERYONE enjoys it. I think every group of people includes some individuals who are more empathic and feel the injustice of what is happening. They are just too frightened to say anything or to openly show they are against it.

        If you are finding that the group mentality is like that a lot where you live, I’m not really sure what to say. My experience has shown me that narcissists can talk up a big story and they make themselves sound powerful and frightening, but really they are just loud, arrogant, and lack real substance. They depend on their image and the fear they make their victims feel.

        Keep remembering that they are actually hollow and empty and try not to feel fear because of them. If I was you, I would still be careful, because they can do a lot of damage and you need to protect yourself, however, keep in mind that they need to rely on fear in others. I know it is easier said than done, and I am not minimising your feelings, but to overcome the childish and pushy nature of those who attack you, tell yourself there is really nothing to fear from their overbearing attitudes and keep doing your job as best you can.

        It is a difficult situation, however, you are not alone even though it feels like you are. Good luck 🙂

      2. Hi WiserNow,

        Thank you so much for your kind advice. I really appreciate it. Luckily, I do not have to go to that place anymore. It would make me ill.

        Most cases are about a workplace bully (one individual) terrorising the whole staff or an individual. Yes, this happens. In my case, it is about mobbing (collective bullying).
        People who have never being bullied *by a group* cannot imagine that good people (empaths and normal) will be willing to participate and terrorize the narcissist’s target. I did not know this existed until it happened to me.

        “I think every group of people includes some individuals who are more empathic and feel the injustice of what is happening. They are just too frightened to say anything or to openly show they are against it… ”

        I totally agree with you that every group of people has empathetic individuals. I also agree that there are people who are too frightened to challenge the narcissist. Others are afraid to lose their job and they just ignore what is happening. They do not enjoy watching abuse. I know that those cases exist. This is not what I was talking about. I will try to explain why this happens. It has to do with group psychology.

        Most narcissists (but not all) are good at manipulating people without them noticing. They have done if for years. They are able to recruit a whole group and convince them that the target is the abuser. This is not done overnight. It takes time because the good people previously liked the targeted individual and the target had done good things for his/her work colleagues. But once the good people completely believe the narcissist’s lies, they will be *convinced* that the target deserves the abuse. Some narcissists (not all) are skilled and know how to do this effectively.

        Would you have feelings of empathy and see injustice if you were totally convinced that someone is really a problem, a troublemaker interfering with your, damaging you company’s reputation or a threat to the organization?

        How narcissists manipulate others, why big lies are believed, how the good people start to see the victim’s behaviour as suspicious or as a proof that he/she is a bully who deserves to be punished and removed from their company is explained in the book I mentioned.

        Sadly, when the target looks for help, his/her friends, family and even some therapists believe he/she is obsessed and paranoid. People think it cannot be that *everyone* in the group is against the victim. This is also what the narcissist wanted to achieve, among other things. Because of this, the author recommends targets to find a therapist who specializes in group psychology or in mobbing (group bullying) to get help.

        I hope I made myself understood 🙂 If you have some questions, please let me know.

        You mentioned in another post you did not receive any notifications. Can I help you?

  4. Hi K,

    Thanks for your reply. Sorry about the delay in responding. I am not online every day and don’t get notifications from this post, so I comment when I can.

    Communicating with people on here who relate to narcissism and its effects to such a high degree is very interesting to me, and it has helped incredibly in terms of feeling better about life in general, so thank you for that.

    I know what you mean about narcissists having two sides that are difficult to harmonise. My experiences with my Mum have made me sensitive to narcissistic traits in others and although I didn’t know the exact reasons why, the bad feelings I felt helped me avoid or end close romantic relationships with them.

    I couldn’t avoid working with them though, and while working I met quite a few and learned some things from my experiences.

    I have found that their “black & white” way of seeing things means that there needs to be a winner and a loser in every situation. There is no “win-win”, or compromise, or diverse but equally laudable talents in their world. They will not back down until they get the upper hand in some way, and the “game” never stops for them. They don’t know when to quit or how to accept the talents of others sincerely.

    If there is no “loser” in their circle because everyone has a unique talent for example or everyone is equally qualified etc, they will purposely “create” a loser in some way. Usually, they will pinpoint a person who they don’t like for some reason (perhaps because this person (or group) is different in some way, or isn’t taken in by them, or can see through the facade, or threatens the facade).

    Narcissists create the facade of the “loser” much like they create the facade of themselves being the “winner”. They play on stereotypes, or highlight a perceived weakness, or isolate and smear the victim, etc. They do this repeatedly with focus and foresight in order to make themselves superior.

    Once you see their motives more clearly, their actual “leadership” skills become quite superficial. Their power is based on their image as well as their ability to oppress or negate the power of others. Meanwhile, they accumulate the majority of resources and utilise the skills, strengths or talents that belong to others, which serves to reinforce their power. Their own actual skills, knowledge or innate talents are secondary to the facade.

    Anyway, these are my observations. Like you, I am still learning and continue to learn a lot about narcs and myself too. I find it a fascinating subject.

    Thanks again for your reply 🙂

      1. You are very welcome, WiserNow

        No need to apologize. Sometimes, I am unable to RSVP and we all have lives, jobs or children to tend to. Communicating about our experiences is imperative to the healing process and this blog has facilitated that greatly. And I agree, the subject is fascinating, indeed.

        It is very much a game for the narcissist and they can be relentless, never recognizing the talents of others, as they put everyone around them down. Your comment about how they “create” a loser made me laugh a bit, it reminded me of an old song called “Lonesome Loser”.

        You are right, once you see past the facade, many narcissists are quite superficial and lack true talent, while usurping the skills and resources of others. It is difficult to avoid them at work and they can wreak havoc if left unchecked, causing untold suffering.

        This is a fabulous place for us to learn about the dynamic and I am happy you found your way here.

    1. Hello WiserNow,

      Your comment to K was very interesting and helpful. I have been targeted by different female narcissists and what you said is true.

      “I couldn’t avoid working with them though, …Usually, they will pinpoint a person who they don’t like for some reason (perhaps because this person (or group) is different in some way, or isn’t taken in by them, or can see through the facade, or threatens the facade).”

      Only if you want to reply or feel like sharing, what are your strategies to prevent them from targeting you?

      Thank you very much in advance.

      1. Hi K,
        Thank you for your message. I am very glad I found this blog too. It’s an eye-opener, and seeing all the comments from other people who have lived through their various experiences is very validating and grounding.
        All the best to you K. You are a very kind and open-minded person and it’s a pleasure to communicate with you 🙂

        Hi E.B.,

        Thank you for your message. I don’t mind sharing with you at all. I am happy to help 🙂

        Before I knew what narcissists were really like, I was a sitting target because I showed a lot of the empathic traits HG tells us are “sins”. I was generally friendly and courteous towards everyone without hesitating to learn more about what kind of person they were first. I was also honest and open and happy to offer assistance to colleagues. My attitude was “do unto others etc” and I thought that by persevering with my “positive” empathic behaviours, I would overcome any dramas or difficulties.

        Now that I know how narcissists operate and how my own behaviour was making things more difficult, I have become more “aware”. While talking to people, I am inwardly questioning the possibility of them being a narc. I listen to the words they say or the vibes I’m getting and I am much more conscious of how I’m behaving too.

        Some strategies that I use:
        – I don’t talk much about myself or about the things I do outside of work unless I know someone quite well and trust them.
        – I take more notice of small or petty things around me that I would have ignored previously and I consider whether these things are done on purpose to cause conflict or negative reactions. If I feel that they are, I ignore the action and try not have contact with the person who has done it.
        – If someone shows narcissistic behaviour and causes drama, I try to stay away from them as much as possible and I don’t get drawn in to long conversations with them.
        – If someone is arrogant, rude or cold towards me, I remain polite but inwardly I ignore them. If possible, I avoid talking to them or I cut the conversation short.
        – When I find myself being targeted, I am mindful of my inner talk. I try to focus on not feeling angry or emotional. I try to keep a cool head and I continue working in a confident manner. If necessary, I continue talking with the narc, but the conversation is impersonal and totally work-oriented.
        – If someone is lying to me and I know they are, I will call them out on it in a subtle way and question them about it, using words or tone that show that I know they’re obviously lying. If narcs know that you’re onto them, they can either retaliate in a way that hurts you, or they will back off a little and tread more carefully around you. it’s up to you to figure out what would be best in your situation.

        I think that the strategy depends on the situation and the people you’re dealing with. If the narc is a fellow colleague, I no longer feel rude or guilty (as I once did) if I go “gray rock” and offer little information. If they’re a boss, it’s more difficult. I remain friendly and courteous, however, I am very aware of their actions, and my dealings with them are guarded.

        In a nutshell, I think the advice of “no contact” and “gray rock” work well in work situations wherever possible. Also, when contact is necessary, I keep telling myself that they are pathetic and that their actions do not define who I am.

        I hope that helps. Good luck and best wishes to you 🙂

      2. Hi WiseNow, 🙂

        Nice to meet you. This blog is the best source of information about narcissism and there are also lovely people like K.

        Thank you so much for sharing your experience. It is very kind of you.

        I use similar strategies like yours, although I still do not know what to do when I am being verbally attacked by the narcissist’s Lieutenants in a place I cannot leave. I feel trapped. One of the reasons people target me is because I am different in some aspects, like you mentioned in your other post. I used to think that if I treated people with respect, I would get that back. Besides, I thought that almost every problem could be solved. Little did I know that some people are not interested in solving anything at all. I have become more aware and suspicious of other people’s behaviour.

        “– If someone is lying to me and I know they are, I will call them out on it in a subtle way and question them about it, using words or tone that show that I know they’re obviously lying. If narcs know that you’re onto them, they can either retaliate in a way that hurts you, or they will back off a little and tread more carefully around you.”

        I wished they would back off. They usually punish me. They are Mid Rangers who behave like Greaters. It is somtimes difficult for me to do it in a subtle way when they become loud and aggressive. Narcissists retaliate with smears campaigns and malignant hoovers to punish me.

        Last year I caught a narcissist lying. Instead of telling me the truth and doing what she was supposed to do, she used denial, deflection and she blamed others. I was told to hire a lawyer because this woman had done the same to other people. Since I do not trust lawyers, I decided to call her and calmly asked her to please do what she was suppossed to do. Luckily I was on the phone. I would have not been able to hide my emotions in front of her. She lied again and contradicted herself. She also raised her voice and did not let me speak but I just repeated what I wanted without arguing or discussing the subject. It is not easy for me to be businesslike when interacting with verbally aggressive people. Eventually, she did it. She did not apologize and did not speak to me again. She smeared me to her family and to other people who knew me. They shun me. Although I could not avoid the interaction, I should have paid more attention when I first met her and she told me that her youngest son had a chronic illness. She also told me that she moved to her boyfriend two weeks after meeting him and asked him to get married. She married him two months later. Then she took over her husband’s business and told her two sons to work for her too. Her eldest son told me he was not happy with it, that he wanted to do something else. Her husband does not seem to be allowed to make any decisions in his own business. She is like a tornado taking over other people’s lives and ruining them. I am lucky I do not have to interact with her anymore and that she is out of my life.

        Thank you once again for your help. Best wishes to you too. 🙂

      3. Thank you, E. B.! I think you are lovely too!
        Reading your comment was difficult because the feeing of being trapped and outnumbered is frustrating. They raise their voices, deny and blame shift and, like you, I just repeated myself over and over again. I usually pissed them off. They are just like tornadoes. A whirlwind of destruction and, then: Poof! gone with the wind.

      4. Hi K,

        You are very kind. I always read your comments. They are very insightful and many of them make me laugh 🙂

        “the feeling of being trapped and outnumbered is frustrating. They raise their voices, deny and blame shift and, like you, I just repeated myself over and over again. ”

        It is. I am sorry you went through this madness too. It seems we have similar experiences. I am outnumbered and there is more than one group against me. I have just replied to WiserNow so you can have an idea what is going on.

        Were you able to find out the reason why they target you?

      5. Thanks, E B! I am happy that you find them insightful and, sometimes, humorous and I think you are very kind too, and I was mad that your SIL gave you the silent treatment after you gave her the verse by Kahlil Gibran’s. That was a crappy thing to do to you.

        I read your comment to WiserNow and I think the reason is similar to yours; I was a threat, or an easy target. Workplace bullying is unacceptable and I am sorry that you had to be hospitalized. Narcissistic abuse is epidemic in the workplace, schools and homes and only getting worse and nobody wants to even acknowledge the existence of NPD. Sometimes, I feel like we are doomed.

      6. K,

        SIL’s passive-aggressive behaviour was to be expected if we consider how narcissists perceive other people. A child is regarded as an appliance and their property. The poem says it is exactly the opposite. Although I did not do it deliberately, she was annoyed and she must must have felt ‘criticized’.

        There are different reasons why people are targeted outside a romantic relationship. It does not seem to me you are an easy prey at all. Being a good source of fuel is one of those reasons but not the only one. Whistle blowers are targeted too. Also witnessing or learning about something they do not want you to know, the narcissist feeling criticized by something you said or did, envy and so on.

        I hope you do not feel like you are doomed, K. We are still learning. HG said there is much more to come. Only a self-aware narcissist like him can reveal the truth behind his behaviour and inside his mind.

      7. E B
        Yup. your SIL probably felt criticized and dismissed the verse as silly. My narcs dismissed me, my ideas and opinions. Bunch of know-it-alls.

        Because of the dynamic, I think I attract narcissists, so I am preyed upon (mostly for fuel as a NITS), however, I am not easy to control and I can be assertive and opinionated, which invites trouble (punishment).

        Sometimes, I feel doomed because people do not want/can’t see the reality of what is happening and it is frustrating. But I am learning to let go, it is better not to fight when you can just disengage; it saves energy.

        Indeed, we are still learning and I am looking forward to The Big Reveal.

      8. K,

        “mostly for fuel as a NITS…”

        Several years ago an acquaintance told me that working with the general public was the worst type of job. There is always someone who is stressed, in a bad mood, impatient, argumentative, and take it out on those they can get to. This can happen every single day when they have to interact with many people daily.
        Teachers have a similar problem when they have to deal with new generations of entitled children without boundaries and their narcissistic parents. A friend of mine was fired from the private school she was working at. Most children in her class did not pass a history exam. Their parents complained to the Principal. Children are seen as clients. The school would rather dismiss a teacher than lose clients.
        I have noticed that angry, aggressive people are everywhere nowadays. I wear sunglasses while driving to avoid giving angry drivers fuel.

        What kind of narcissists are those they prey on you: Lessers or passive-aggressive MRNs? Can you leave the room or the place when they bait you?

      9. E.B.

        I am very lucky because all my work is volunteer so it gives me some freedom from workplace politics because they can’t fire me, and I work in the school library where it is peaceful and quiet, so I am able to avoid them (narcs) most of the time. They are midrangers: parents and staff.

        I feel bad for your friend, it is very difficult when you have to deal with parents and administrators. Schools are a crap shot, it is not going to be easy for her, ever. Parents and children can be a pain-in-the-ass.

        There are a lot of aggressive drivers where I live and I am usually ok, but recently, a 20-year-old lesser female shot and killed a 34-year-old lesser male because he cut her off. That was some excellent narc rage.

        Nowadays you have to very careful or you might get shot.

      10. Hi K,

        I am glad to know you have a quiet work environment and you are surrounded by people who are peaceful. You have the advantage of not having any LN work colleagues or visitors. Although you have to deal with MRNs, they have to behave. If there is some kind of programme, it will get loud but again, MRNs will not become verbally aggressive in those surroundings.

        The friend I told you about used to work part time at a library too. She was a stalker, but not a dangerous one. She fell in love with men who were not interested in her. But according to her, all these men were in love with her. She fell in love with one man at a time for at least two to four years until she fell in love with the next one. In all the years I knew her, she had never been in a romantic relationship. However, she always spoke as if those men pursued a relationship with her. These men were already in a relationship but she did not care if they had a wife or a partner. I tried to make her understand but it was pointless. She was totally convinced they were in love with her because she saw anything these men said or did as a proof. Some examples:

        The school she used to work at belonged to the church and it was a powerful institution and in worst case, it would be hard to find a job again. The lawyer she hired told her he wanted to protect her from further damage by taking the necessary legal steps. When she heard the words he wanted to ‘protect her’, she immediately thought he was in love with her.
        There was a university teacher who used to loan books from the library she worked at. He returned a book and his finger accidentally touched hers. She said he had done it on purpose because that was a way of letting her know he loved her. Things like that.
        Since she did not know where they lived, she used to bombard them with phone calls or harass them at work. One of these men used to work at a financial institution. She went there and made a scene in front of all his colleagues because he had rejected her. *Rejection* was seen by her as a positive signal he wanted her. She was delusional.
        Another time she fell in love with a man she worked at a hotel she was staying at when she was on holidays abroad. She travelled across the continent to see him. None of these men wanted to have anything to do with her. My brother was afraid of her and he used to avoid her the best he could. 🙂

      11. Hello E. B.

        Lessers are the worst! They will vandalize your property, threaten you and physically assault you at work. Midrangers behave much better at work and in public. There are 4 midrange females and one female teacher on my suspect list and there are two new male employees on my suspect list, as well. The library is quiet and peaceful; it is perfect and I am very lucky.

        Your friend sounds like she could be an Erotomaniac. I remember watching a TV show that portrayed a woman who behaved just like your friend. No wonder your brother avoids her like the plague, I would too. I feel bad for the men she stalks. What a pain-in-the-ass that must be!

      12. Hi K,

        It am happy for you that you have a good job.

        It is said that erotomaniacs are lonely people. They were not. Not sure if they fit into this category.
        As far as I know, there are two categories of stalkers: 1- the stalker is known to the victim and 2- the unknown stalker.
        The friend I told you about (A) belonged to the first category. I had another friend (B) whose behaviour was very similar to A’s but she belonged to the second category. Both of them were grown-up, passive-aggressive, MRNs. They were not young girls having a crush. They let their victims know that they existed.

        They were not schizoid, socially awkward people.
        Friend A had a social support network including family, a group of friends and colleagues. She had a social life, gave lectures and so on. She had not been romantically involved with any of her victims.
        Friend B was married to an aggressive alcoholic, pursued other men who did not know her before but she let them know she existed. She initiated conversations with them. She had a family, friends and acquaintances who knew that she was prepared to leave her husband as soon as she ensnared her victim.
        Both of them travelled to other cities and countries, if necessary, to stalk their victims.

        They did not break into their victims’ house or did something illegal. The used to gather information through other people. They did not react aggressively to rejection. They did not use violence and were nor vindictive. It would not make sense. They firmly believed they their victims were in love with them.
        Maybe there is difference between male and female stalkers?

        They had a sense of entitlement. They did not care if their victims were in a relationship because they were convinced those men were in love with them and belonged to them. Although they were busy with their own lives, they still had enough time and energy to stalk their victims.
        I did not introduce my husband to any of them. They would have stalked him. I decided to go NC with them a long time ago after I learnt they had smeared me to other friends and I lost friendships.

        It would be very interesting if HG wrote about these types of narcissists in the future.

      13. Hello E. B.,

        It is amazing the lengths they will go to get fuel. N/C is the best thing to do to keep you, your husband and loved ones safe. The more comments I read, the more I find myself SMH in disbelief. They really were delusional and put a lot of effort into stalking. It reminds me of American Horror Story or the Twilight Zone. Surreal.

  5. K,

    It makes you wonder if the author really is a clinical psychologist or not if he denied the existence of NPD. Or, he wants to avoid the subject for some reason. Who knows?

    It makes me think of all the different ways narcissism is considered to be “normal”, or even a positive thing, in today’s society in general. I never really delved deeply into psychology as a subject until just a few years ago, and now that I understand it more, I see narcissism everywhere around us. I see it glamorised and even respected in advertising, in the way news/journalism is presented on commercial TV, in the way television hosts behave and the questions and jokes they use. I see it in popular music and film themes, etc.

    It is everywhere and it’s considered normal, even cool or superior. In fact, to be generally considered “successful” in the eyes of society, one has to be narcissistic in today’s age.

    I guess the neverending, relentless quest for power and control that drives narcissists has brought us to where we are.

    1. WiserNow
      It is really odd that he avoids the existence of NPD and I was wondering what his reasoning was, too. Narcissism is everywhere and I never really knew much about psychology until I came here and learned about it, and I am still learning.

      Narcissistic traits/success is admirable to a certain degree, however, I do not like the abuse that I see. The majority of my narcs are lower functioning and self-destruct causing a lot of collateral damage.

      Relative to my upbringing, I am thinking that narcissism is about survival and the power/control/drive elements are by-products of that self defense mechanism, however, those elements can have very deleterious consequences, as well as, positive ones.

      I am conflicted by the conundrum that is NPD. There are two sides and I have two different perspectives, but I am having trouble harmonizing them.

  6. I ordered a book titled, In Sheep’s Clothing: Understanding and Dealing With Manipulative People, from the library on 3/3/17 and I got a pick up notice on Thursday. It is a short book, so I decided to read it.

    Pathological narcissist/ism was never mentioned once. The author refers to people that have narcissistic traits as covert-aggressives (passive), aggressive personalities or character disordered/disturbed. He offers myriad ways to work out your problems and stay in these unhealthy relationships. Almost every scenario he wrote about involved a pathological narcissist.

    Sorry empaths and codependents, we are labeled: neurotics. And I wasn’t exactly sure what a neurotic was, so I googled it.

    neu·rot·ic
    n(y)o͝oˈrädik/Submit
    adjectiveMEDICINE
    1.
    suffering from, caused by, or relating to neurosis.
    synonyms: mentally ill, mentally disturbed, unstable, unbalanced, maladjusted; psychopathic, phobic, obsessive–compulsive
    “neurotic patients”

    This book denies the existence of NPD and I do not recommend it at all; I felt gaslighted after I finished it.

    1. K, I know you knew this book would be useless (and thus you could broadcast that) as that can only be the reason you would read work other than my own!

      1. HG
        Yup, I knew it was useless almost immediately. In my defense, I ordered it around the time I started YouTubing you last March; it took long enough for the book to arrive, which makes me wonder if it is popular. Your books are the only ones worth reading, of course, and I am being objective when I state this. I laughed at “character disturbed” and took umbrage at “neurotic”, although, I don’t think empaths have balance; we feel emotions to the nth degree, and-to redeem myself-I am starting Decipher tonight. And I don’t recommend Rooster Bar by John Grisham, either. I like his older work better.

      2. HG

        Since K is Q.A (Quality Assurance and Queen of Archives), Im sure it was only to confirm that all other sources of information remain inferior to yours.

      3. Thanks NarcAngel!
        I like that title: Q.A (Quality Assurance and Queen of Archives) and, of course, it was to underline and confirm that HG’s work is far superior than those other wannabes.

      1. E. B.
        No kidding! I was wondering if he was character disturbed or just plain stupid. The author is a clinical psychologist in private practice and he denied/euphemized the cluster Bs. No wonder people are confused.

    2. The author sounds like a narcissist in denial. From your comment, it sounds like he views narcissists (people who manipulate) as ‘strong’ and neurotics (people who don’t manipulate) as ‘weak’.

      Neurotics, hey? Ha! …how funny is that? The irony is quite something.

      1. WiserNow
        Your statement is correct and, as I read, I thought: where did he go to college, because he missed the part in Psyc.101 when they went over the cluster Bs. Neurotic made me bristle a bit, but it is funny when you really think about it and the irony in this dynamic is definitely amusing.

      2. K, WiserNow & EB,

        I couldn’t even finish that book. Maybe the guy should have done some research on himself.

        James Fallon, who had been studying brain scans and genetics of psychopaths, found out he was a psychopath, even though he was quite successful, in a long term marriage, and was socially outgoing.

        I also was not very impressed with “Rethinking Narcissism”. Which the book seem to imply, was because I was a narcissist. 😛

      3. Perse

        The book was terrible but he made one good point: The problem of ASPD children has been ignored and needs to be addressed. It is not worth reading IMHO.

      4. Hi Perse,
        Any of us can be officially diagnosed as a Psychopath after a brain scan 🙂
        So-called experts in narcissism and psychopathy have become epidemic.

    3. I watched an interview with that guy (pre-HG) and I don’t remember anything that was said.

      Though now that I come to think of it, he did mention that much of self-help books are ill-informed and useless.

      Hmm.

  7. Hello mother lol she even looks like her 😄 my mums favorite form of gaslighting. It never happened or the way i remembered it.

  8. HG you wrote an article some time ago and I forget what it was called. In it you described how different Ns behave and I recall you referring to one type of N who would have a long term IP and treat her well but had many SSIPs and was malevolent to them. I’d like to read this article again if you could kindly remind me what it was called. Thank you. Alexis

      1. HG – you’re fab !!! Thank you

        I’m beleive my original MN was one of these – he was so different to the others.

  9. I’m 52 years old and I still hear that from my mother almost everyday. Apparently my childhood was one big psychotic break and nothing I remember ever happened.

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