The Devil’s Toolkit
Learn what is used against you so it never happens again
25 thoughts on “The Devil’s Toolkit”
Vent Your Spleen! (Please see the Rules in Formal Info)
This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.
Ahh WhoCares.. You are most welcome here. It is absolutely a haven of safety, and of information, crucially.. It feels great to obtain the validation the narc denies! Yes, thank you, HG.
As for your question, I believe to recognize a fellow love & hope devotee – beware, Hg does not endorse our emotional thinking – I however fall prey regularly to hoping he will one day find the strength within himself to at least reduce his reliance on his beloved/accursed fuel addiction, relying instead on his own intelligence, talent and evident brilliance – it is so obvious to us, it is difficult to believe he does not possess the capacity to build it himself.. that self-compassion so fundamental to a healthy identity.. for the moment, I more than willingly offer my fuel with the hope that perhaps it will lead to something more fulfilling (albeit from a lowly tertiary source 😉
Thank-you Nuit Étoilée.
Yeah, I’m a sucker for hope. And, yes I’m aware of which camp HG is in. But I appreciate the heads up, in the event that I did not know!
I echo your statement “it is difficult to believe he does not possess the capacity to build it himself” – simply because of the level of self-awareness he demonstrates. It must be endlessly frustrating to the know the concept of empathy inside out and how it looks when other people possess it but never express true empathy for oneself. HG appears to know empaths better than they know themselves – I admit that I had to learn about Narcissism before I ever realized what an Empath is. If, in turn, we can help Narcissists learn about themselves; I’m all for it.
In the meantime, I’m just happy that HG (even if it is because he can control his need for fuel) can choose a different behaviour (rather than a narcissist’s default setting) and we get insight as a result.
Nuit Etoilee – I’m not sure what I have to offer here but I’m glad someone brought up the topic of love because my mind keeps going to the subject of love and altruism. And my belief that there is no true altruistic act. In the end, we all want something for ourselves.
And in reading other conversations on HG’s blog – especially ones where he is attacked one way or another or accused of all kinds of underlying motives – I keep coming back to lemons.
Why lemons? Because we are all dealt a certain set of constraints and how we deal with them is, in the end, up to us. With HG’s set of constraints (assuming he is upfront about them and here I’m likely revealing that I’m new to the blog and may lack information) he has chosen to aid empaths; for whatever end goal is yet to be revealed. But for him – he may never be able to *feel* the love sent back to him through the recognition, appreciation and adoration sent back him through his readers.
To me that is an altruistic act…and a form of love.
He can make lemonade from lemons but never know the taste of the lemonade for himself.
Thank you for your perspective, WhoCares. I appreciate your analogy… thought-provoking..
I felt I was rambling, so I appreciate you reading! I do believe a true altruism exists, but is likely rare. I wonder if the self-fulfilment we can obtain within ourselves would negate our act being altruistic? Hmmm…
End goal indeed.. it is a question. HG states his are not altruistic – and our interests align for the moment apparently.. I’m looking forward to the big reveal.. I enjoy being a member of the adoring public for HG.
Nuit Étoilée – it did not feel like rambling to me, maybe because I ramble as well. So, thank-you also for reading because I feel as though I’m only just finding my voice and it is helpful to have this place to excercise it on this topic. (Thank-you, HG.)
Nuit – I appreciate your observation on self-fulfilment…here’s a related question: do you think if enough Empaths shone back their love, appreciation, respect for HG and it could cause him to feel it himself – would it be gradual or would it be like a giant “KA-POW!”? 🙂
And, for the record, I am also enjoying being here.
I have worked with both narcs and empaths in high ranking positions and have to say that empaths can be as egotistical as narcs in some cases. I have experienced that while the narc may have a very good point or efficient idea, in some cases it has been struck down by an empath in a higher ranking position (or a group of them) solely based on fear of failure or opposition to the fact that it was raised by a narc and thus biting off their own nose to spite their face. Some empaths in these positions also have a tendency to embrace only the positive and will not hear of any plan B or contingency offered by the narc as they view that as being negative or suggesting failure which often CAN lead to failure. In some cases empaths have actually hindered success that would have benefitted many due to being as stubborn as the narc. So it works both ways-empaths have big egos also and having them at the helm is not always beneficial due to their emotional decisions or judgements. I am not saying that all empaths are unable to put these things aside just as I do not propose that only narc leadership can lead to success. Empaths may not go home to abuse their families or friends but there are cases where their determination to oppose someone because of who they are and wanting to win out (good over evil-which is really emotion vs logic) has not had the desired outcome for others. But of course the others never know what could have been. There is good and bad on both sides and learning to suspend ego and accept one anothers differences instead of trying to change each other (which is futile) or force only our position or vision is what can lead to success. I suggest we take and learn what we can from them and work with them to help them see the benefit in doing good while acheiving their aims (as is being done here on this blog for example). We cannot change narcs and they are not going away. What is the alternative?
“I suggest we take and learn what we can from them and work with them to help them see the benefit in doing good while acheiving their aims (as is being done here on this blog for example)”
While I accept we can learn from any intelligent narcissist, just as we can learn from any intelligent normal or empath, I respectfully suggest it would be dangerous to think we can work with and help narcissists to get them to “see the benefit in doing good while achieving their aims”. Their aims are fuel and oftentimes only negative fuel will do (i.e. devastating and crushing people). Pathological narcissists don’t care about acting morally or doing good. As HG has stated, they are hypocrites and whatever good they do was part of an illusion.
HG is a rare creature in that he’s self aware and uses his knowledge to help others, and I don’t think we can use him as a relationship example from which to think we can have similar relationships with other narcissists. And in any case, as he has stated in his blog rules, we are only tertiary fuel sources with whom he is generally pleasant and courteous. He is very different in real life with the people who are closer to him, so my sense is that we as blog readers are far* from “helping him see the benefit in doing good while achieving [his] aims”, particularly because his aims as a malignant narcissist remain to be the negative fuel involved in harming people, as far as I know.
“I suggest we take and learn what we can from them and work with them to help them see the benefit in doing good while acheiving their aims (as is being done here on this blog for example). We cannot change narcs and they are not going away. What is the alternative?”
The alternative is education, self defense, and no contact (to the extent possible in the case of family or colleagues). We can’t work with or help these people see anything.
Thank you NAngel for your thoughtful insights (as always).
I like to think I’m getting better at seeing the other perspective.. I just can’t turn off my love devotee status – I *know* the good love does, and I want to *share* this love – so yes, somewhere it’s selfish – bc I want it to be reciprocal – but largely bc I know this exponential increase that happens when people come together in this way..
Somewhere, I remain convinced that in addition to the wounds we are all seeking to heal through engaging with one another, it is also partly bc we offer unique…gifts? to one another.. I ache to reach the inner sanctum of those I love, not just bc I want to be “special” to that person, but bc having experienced this, the .. ecstasy… through this connection is beyond comparison with anything else I’ve experienced, and I long to share this with *honestly* as many people around me as are willing..
It is rare. I had no idea how rare it is.. I wish it for everyone..
That.. to me.. is what love is..
And this is what is lost to people deemed “incapable”, “unable” to love.. I don’t want to accept that.. or the abuse… and I am sad that I must admire them from a distance for fear of the harm I will come to should I dare attempt to share my love with them.. so sad…
I remain hopeful (*I know, I know) that there is a way.. there have been many other advances in human problems, so surely greater minds than mine will help uncover solutions.. HG? 😉
I think it’s questionable to claim that narcissists make valuable contributions because* they are narcissists. It may well be the case that certain narcissists make valuable contributions despite* their narcissism, as they also happen to have talent and determination to succeed. The latter variable is not necessarily dependent on narcissism.
Taking HG as an example, he is a sociopathic narcissist who benefits others with his knowledge on narcissism. But I think that his ability to benefit others involves a certain restraint on his narcissism to some degree. Example: He follows rules of engagement with respect to his blog readers that were indicated by his doctors. If he did not do this, chances are, his narcissism would probably cause issues online with the people he interacts with.
With respect to the book excerpt I quoted, I think it is reflective of a narcissistic sense of superiority to suggest that only narcissists are able to lead effectively and get stuff done because they are consequentialists, as opposed to normals or empaths. Again, I’m sure there are many excellent leaders and high achievers who are not pathological narcissists.
In my case, I don’t deny that the narcissist I got entangled with is contributing something good (I prefer to not give details on what that is exactly) and I know that his work is driven by fuel. But I think that his contribution is based on his intellect and hard work, not the narcissism itself as many non-narcissists are also highly intelligent and hardworking.
Sadly, I’m certain that if he didn’t engage in narcissistic dances with people and end up alienating many with his insulting lashing out, devaluations etc, he would be much more famous and well connected than he is. Sadly, he is his own worst enemy in this respect, in my view.
“Sadly, I’m certain that if he didn’t engage in narcissistic dances with people and end up alienating many with his insulting lashing out, devaluations etc, he would be much more famous and well connected than he is. Sadly, he is his own worst enemy in this respect, in my view.”
Some time ago, I discussed this with a mutual friend I have with the narcissist (who agrees with me that he is a narc). She was frustrated to see how he self-sabotages big time because of his narcissism. I would rather not get into the details of specific examples on a public blog but suffice it to say that it was clear that his drive for fuel oftentimes compromises his work and its dissemination.
Indeed and by the same token the drive for fuel also leads to our kind achieving considerable success and beneficial collateral consequences.
1. Narcissism can and does result in considerable achievements which benefit a wide variety of people. Narcissism can and does result in considerable achievements which do not benefit a wide variety of people.
2. Narcissism can and does enable that individual to achieve success. Narcissism can and does cause problems for a particular individual narcissist.
3. Most leaders, high achievers are narcissists or significantly narcissistic. There are some empaths who are leaders and high achievers, but they are fewer in number – why? In broad brush terms
(a) It is not a route which appeals as heavily to empathic people;
(b) The narcissist (not all admittedly but you only need one to reach the position of leader of a country) is better equipped to get in these positions (which also segues into (3))
(c) Many of this positions are occupied by narcissists and therefore a narcissist is better suited to the environment within which these positions operate (think of politics, finance, corporate boards, entertainment for example) than an empath.
Thank you for your comments, HG
I don’t disagree on 1. and 2.
I’m not so sure on 3 b. and c. particularly the idea that narcissists are better suited for leadership roles. Many narcissists may occupy these positions, surely, because they are drawn to such roles, but considering the state of the world today, I don’t think they are doing a very good job at them in terms of truly seeking the common good (an example being the disastrous climate change conventions, where not much gets done and little significant action results from them). And why would narcissists care about the common good when their chief concern is themselves and their fuel?
In any case, even you have described your kind as evil and people who employ what you call the Devil’s toolkit. I accept however that their contributions may result in collateral benefits to us (Admittedly, the work of the narcissist I got entangled with certainly did), but, as I mentioned to this mutual friend, because I do not believe that the ends justify the means, I don’t think that the beneficial work the narcissist may do justifies the harm he inflicts.
But yes, the fact remains that narcissists are among us, they won’t change, and many of them acquire substantial power (financial, political etc). My sense is that the best we can do is educate ourselves and others about pathological narcissism and learn to defend ourselves while simultaneously work to bring light into this dying earth that, as the Bible suggests, is presently ruled by “the prince of this world” (Satan).
Privilege
Since I know you to be engaging in debate – I need convincing.. (it’s probably that ego part that that wants to ‘fix’ I’m working on)
So, NAngel, isn’t it possible that a narc, once addicted to fuel, but (I know, I know this is utopia thinking, but it’s necessary for vision) – if we enabled this – brilliant visionary – to be self-sufficient, isn’t it just conceivable that he/she could still accomplish incredible things – the way other visionary leaders do, who are *not* narcs?
I am almost afraid to say that someone I admire, who (m?) I consider a leader in their field is not a narc, and is a brilliant & incredible visionary – why can’t that be good enough? Why should we accept the abuse – as a price of genius?
Hi Nuit
I suppose its possible but we will likely never know as they have to want to change and they see no reason to do so. I dont think that only narcissists can accomplish incredible things, but because of their drive to acheive, need for recognition, and disregard for the feelings of others, they are more representative in the top of their fields than empaths. I cant imagine what brilliance they could achieve were they not bogged down by their need to pursue fuel (I’m sure they dont see it as bogged down but lets face it-it has to be a hindrance as there are only so many hours in a day and they admit to wanting to conserve energy). I do not think we should accept abuse, but I accept that they are out there, many of them are brilliant, and that we can learn from them, adapt and temper some of their ideas to our benefit while giving them a wide berth. I do not have one in my bed, but I sure do enjoy the many comforts and benefits that they have provided that make my simple life (with little reward but the fact that I am not one of them) as an empath worthwhile.
Jeff Bezos. Walt Disney.………
The world be a very different place without them. I can deny all I want but something good came from them being the way they were.
Steve Jobs was a narcissist. The millions of people who work at Apple, own Apple products, and the many spin-off companies and products related, have benefitted from Steve Jobs drive for fuel. We may not want to invite them directly in our lives, but even at that-his surviving family live a life of privledge that I doubt they would give up and that I will never have.
Correct.
I also respectfully suggest that this idea that narcissists are necessary as leaders because they are the only ones with the stomach to act according to the notion that the ends justify the means—otherwise things supposedly “won’t get done”—is another manipulative tactic in their Devil’s toolkit to make folks think that the narcissists’ problematic behavior can be morally justified somehow and therefore acceptable.
Wrong.
I was reading today the kindle sample of this book and came across this:
“The captains of industry that are driving forward innovation, invention and progress. Those people who have taken on the mantle of huge responsibility to get the job done. To deliver those products and services so that you can eat and drink, be kept warm; be kept sheltered and be entertained by all that technology has to offer. I am referring to the CEOs of corporations, the chairmen of the board, the entrepreneurs and business angels. These people are drawn from our ranks and they make the world a better and more interesting place. They stand head and shoulders above you. They must be from our kind as otherwise the job would not get done. It is only our kind that can remain focussed on the end result. It is only us that are able to live with the maxim that the end always justifies the means.”
For the record, although I agree that we surely must have many leaders in different sectors who are narcissists, I disagree that 1) *all* of the people who occupy positions of leadership in their field are narcissists, as the above seems to imply, and 2) that these narcissistic people make the world a better place. For starters, I doubt their victims would agree.
My view is that the world we live in is in a terrible, terrible state, and on the brink of a massive ecological disaster that is bound to wipe out the human race, and this state is partly (not wholly) due to problematic leadership.
But in any case, it doesn’t make sense to me to think that the damage narcissists do on a micro level in their drive for fuel somehow translates to something good or beneficial when the consequences of their behavior are seen at a macro level.
I also think it’s a false choice to suggest that one either has to operate based on the idea that the ends justify the means or else things “won’t get done”.
Just sayin.
Your final sentence belies your lack of belief in your argument.
Wrong.