Poll : What Is Your Overriding Thought About Your Ensnarement With The Narcissist?
On the few (or many) occasions you reflect on your ensnarement with the narcissist, from romantic through to the familial, is there an overriding thought about it all? However long ago the ensnarement was (or even if it is current) how do you regard it? What is running through your mind as you analyse the events that occurred, the behaviours, the words as those scenes are played out once more?
You may choose upto four of the suggested outcomes, to cater for whether you have had more than one ensnarement or where you find a few thoughts tying for the lead as to which is the overriding one. As always, do expand in the comments section on your thoughts.
Thank you for participating.
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I would have picked more than four because I have had so many Narcissists in my life and for each of them, more than one applies.
Focusing on my most recent Narcissist, I would say the most applicable is that I feel like a fool. I had watched HG’s video on the Online Somatic Narcissist and literally, every one of the things that HG spoke of applied to this man. He wrote this message with a photo, “don’t be scared”. I wrote back, “I’m not”, verbally adding, “idiot” and laughing.
Turns out, I was the idiot. I disregarded HG’s words, thinking that I can handle myself. This man himself exposed to me that he was dangerous and I laughed it off. Who is laughing now?
Not me.
I wish i knew then what i know now. My emotional mind chose I will make the narc pay. Reasonable mind says it was a mistake as long as live mistakes will happen however, i will try not to make this mistake again. I will share with anyone who will listen or read.
I thought about this for quite a while. I love this idiot. I don’t feel sorry for him. I hate him. He is miserable and I am the only to stand the misery, for now. I am his blacksheep, which by cultural meaning indicates shamanic tendency as to being outlawed but equipped with more responsibility and abilities than others. The black sheep is used as a trashcan and the narcs negativity will be tortured through the sheeps body and soul and will be sweat out through their pores. The blacksheep is the conscience of the group or relationship, according to psychology the black sheep keeps balance and functionality within the group/ relationship. The sheep does suffer, but at some time it’s wise enough to detect the need for this to be done by someone. So the narc doesnt have to die. The connection may look imbalanced on the outside, but deep inside, its an energetic pact at work, hence it’s no wonder an unscrupulous, conscienceless narc needs an upright, responsible person at their side. All this does not mean that this sort of ‘love’ will ever have a chance to thrive or work out. Or feel like real love, as I (we) learned it. In my idea it pictures the battle between angels and demons. The moment will come, that I will have to leave the narc and I feel sadness already to leave him behind in his emptiness, his cast of cold, his cage watched over by his even more narcisstic mother. His lost life. For then I will walk away off to new chances, and possibilites. I may need some time to heal. I may be wounded. I may carry the pain for the rest of my life. But so does he, even if he does not know. He may think hes winning. But this isn’t about winning. After all, I could never lose as much as he’s already lost. I may sound addicted – I am. But I also know, that the ability to love without condition and to love without being loved back, is something, I needed to experience. This world is a dark place and demonic power takes root in many souls. I am not ready to leave him behind, stuck in the dark, wet swamp, and head off into the light. I will share my light with him, for a while. perhaps he was sent to me by the devil. And perhaps I was sent to him by God. I don’t fear the sadness and pain.
But wait until I catch him cheating. Then I’ll come back with a new post.
Remind me.
Which side is fucked up again?
Ha ha.
🙂
Ha ha NA
And I just left Best Buy…..
NarcAngel
I have 2 fucked up CoDs, 1 dysfunctional empath and a some really dumb lessers who keep screwing up their fuel matrices.
Of course, I am perfect just the way I am.
Oops!
I chose …i wish i knew then what i know now, how could i be so foolish and ive made a crapload of mistakes.
I got thinking about this question this week asking myself how am i different now from back then in regards to the relationship and still being in it. Im definitely more knowledgable about narcissism and its helped with dealing with people bc the reality are there are many with narcissism or strong narc traits. What has really changed is my own ego. Back when i met my narc i wanted the lovebombing. I wanted to be told how gorgeous i was and how much he wanted and adored me. This i now see as coming from a place of ego and on many levels reminds me of a narcissist. I wanted that to fuel my ego so id feel better about myself and feel alive. I wanted him to help my ego to distract from areas in my life i didnt want to deal with. I gobbled up all the lovebombing and enjoyed having my head in the clouds but it was foolish bc it was part of the scheme of ensnaring fresh fuel and another lifeline for my narc.
I look back to those old days and realise how egotistical it was. Lovebombing is so overdone and phoney. Now its a red flag and turn off.
If i knew what i know now im not sure if itd make a difference bc i think you have to experience it to fully learn. Im not sure it wouldve made a difference bc i wanted what i felt i needed at the time.
Ive made a lot of mistakes and regrets. I cant blame it fully on my narc bc i played a part in it all. It was the coming together of two people who had dysfunction and the outcome.
Ego is a dangerous thing and can get you into a lot of trouble. I look at friends that make the right choices and do whats right and their lives may not seem thrilling but they are at peace and happy. Meanwhile my life seems out of control at times and i live a secret life.
I find it interesting and sad that the responses with the most votes are those that imply so much self-blame. “I feel foolish…” “I should have known…” “This still hurts and it shouldn’t…”
Kristen that is true and the irony is that many of those self-blaming people armed with the knowledge would take their narcissist back if the opportunity presented itself and if he/she switched on the charisma and promised things would get better.
I know. It’s because the narcissist poisons you. It’s like being infected.
Sniglet
Sad but very true for some. 🤔
The feeling he was trying to change me, to this day I can not shake that feeling.
My jaw dropped… 23 votes for i want the narcissit back… 😱😱😱😱😱 WTH????
Ha ha ha…..thanks for the laugh!!! Emotional thinking is amazing.
They are still not over the infection..
Obviously still very infected…
Nikita,
They need more time. They may have just discovered that they are dealing with an narc. Their hearts will eventually catch up with their logical mind.
It takes time each person healing and deliverance from these types varies.
Hi yolo! Yes true. I just assumed everyone would be totally aware now , and it was probably because I never wanted back someone who made me suffer, although I did go back.,, OMG that is probably even worse than wanting them back. 😱😱🤣🤣..,, Be well Yolo
Nikita,
Ot doesn’t make you worse..it means you are human. Most of us just want to be socially compliant. 😉
My overriding thought about my ensnarement and all of this is an overwhelming fascination that another’s experience could be so vastly different from my own. I wish I could just move on to normals but I can’t seem to look away. I want a pet wolf!! Narcissists try harder in some areas and we try harder in some areas. They make our lives richer and they do exact a payment for that. They are terrifying and beautiful and I can’t discount them.
NA and Carolyn,
Thank you both! I do know, with the Narc, it’s really not personal, because they do not see us as persons; we are appliances.
It’s one of those shreds of Emotional Thinking that I’m having a hard time dislodging. Still looking at this from the view of the empath and victim.
“people do not act like this without a reason. If it’s directed at you, you must have caused it.”
Still trying to unstick this piece of trash thinking, and get it out with the rest of the garbage.
I am so relieved/pleased that i am out.
He used my need to be useful against me right from the very beginning.
I use him as an example of where i never want to be again.
And the information i have found on this site from preventing the same ever happening has given me just that.
Hg – since learning my ex is a narcissist and I am a super empath and my ex best friend is a narcissist and so is my brother in law I am wondering if my dad might be a narcissist as well. My dad’s dad never told him he loved him and was very cold to him. I know he physically abused my dad and his brother as well like if one of them got in trouble and spanked he would spank the other one too because that is “fair”. My dad has three daughters and of them he is by far closest to me. I am the baby and we have always been close like one time when I was around 8 my mom told my dad (in front of me) that he loved me more than he loved her. He used to get mad and punch the wall (happened about three times) and would kick me out of the house (literally physically push me out barefoot outside and lock the door and I had to wait sometimes hours for my mom to let me back in) when I was growing up. He did the same thing to my sisters especially my middle sister. He is super concerned about his appearance like he always dresses up way too much for everything. Is this all narcissistic behavior or just abusive?
My overriding thought:
That I wish I had been born to a woman with the sense to know he was just a man. A damaged man. Mere blood and bone. Completely replaceable and not worth trading for both her and her childrens lives.
Grateful.
My obsessive question still seems to be, What could i have possibly done to make someone hate me so much?
Perse
You know the answer to that. Nothing. He didnt hate you.
THEY NEED A HOST TO CARRY THEIR WEAKNESS, DISGUST, AND HATRED OF THEMSELVES.
Nothing personal-thats why they can think of us as toasters. Remember that instead.
NA
I think that narc hates you as long as you react giving him negative fuel. Just stop reacting, be neutral when he is malign, ignore him and he will go away or switch to being kind. I did it with my ex. When I stopped reacting to his malign hoovers he suddenly understood he is wasting his time. And now he doesn’t hate me (or hates me secretly – but that’s not my business).
They drop you like a hot potato when you don’t provide fuel, Carolyn!
It is amusing if you think about it.
Hi Perse,
I asked myself the same question about some narcissists who hate(d) me. What all these narcissists had in common was that they told me things like “You *never* do what I want from you”, “You *always* say no”. I reject bold, unreasonable demands. They do it because they feel entitled and they do not care. Normal people do not behave like them.
If your narcissist cannot control you or manipulate you, you can take their hate as a compliment.
Hi EB,
I don’t know that he hated me. He did like to use cruelty to garner negative fuel. The rest of the behaviors was him just doing what he wanted, never minding the effect on anyone else. If it hurt someone, that was just a wonderful side effect to him.
There were times he could manipulate me, and other times, he could not, as I would just live pretty much as if I had an obnoxious roomie .
When I got to ignoring him, then it would be back trying to get positive fuel. Stupidly, I would reward “good behavior” with much praise and admiration, thinking that would make it last.
Anyway, i was trying to scroll, and hit send instead. I see after writing that, i was easily manipulated into doing what he wanted, I just didn’t know it was what he wanted at the time: challenge fuel, positive fuel, negative fuel. bad attitude that re could report to IPSS, DSL, and coterie.
Just looking back on the aftermath of the totality, and not viewing the world through his skew, my take on his actions is that he hated me, because i wouldn’t act that way, myself, unless up against a mortal enemy, and, until educating myself on Narcs, i would have assumed i never had, and never would have a mortal enemy, in my whole life!
Hi Perse,
Thank you very much for your two replies. I do not know why he did that to you. There are different reasons why they are so cruel and (seem to) hate their targets.
I remember watching an interview with a serial killer. He said his mother, his two grandmothers and his aunt were aggressive, domineering women. He said he was terrified of his mother, he felt intimidated by her and that her grandmother used to play mind games and that it was humiliating. When he started having intrusive, recurrent thoughts about killing his mother, he decided to run away from her.
What I want to say is that some men feel righteous anger towards their mothers or female caregivers who abused them for years when they were vulnerable (in childhood). Since it is not socially accepted to hate their (grand)mothers, some men seem to be project those feelings of hatred onto their female partners or onto other women.
“When I got to ignoring him, then it would be back trying to get positive fuel. Stupidly, I would reward “good behavior” with much praise and admiration, thinking that would make it last.”
Rewarding good behaviour is part of the wrong advice given to victims of narcissists in some boards. They wrongly believe the narcissist will change. Actually, we are giving narcissists fuel. They must feel powerful when they see that they can control their targets so easily.
My main overriding thought is that I am very satisfied I used my narcissistic muscle to protect myself in the two relationships (separate times) I was involved with the two narcissists.
I never analyse their behavior now. My analysis was effected during the life of the relationship and completed with their demise – that goes with every past relationship. Everything I did was right. There are no lingering somber moments, no crying, no wanting to go back. No guilt. I have only two regrets: 1. I initiated and pursued both men (at separate times) (Had I not Sliding Doors springs to mind); 2. Spending way too much money on both. Caveat: both narcissists and empaths can be financial leeches.
PS. Is it true that muscle has memory?
A clarification: I meant the demise of each relationship. My exes are very much alive.
My left pectoral certain recalls being told that.
Have you just admitted that your right pectoral is underdeveloped?
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/893/038/tank8094952_display_image.jpg?1328677614
I still love my acquaintance for who he is.
And he loves your fuel…
After this experience I came to realize how naive I was. As example, when I first was learning about narcissism, there was a woman on a support page saying how she and her husband divorced 5 yrs ago and that she still regularly cries over him.
Before undergoing all this narc hoopla, in the past, this sort of statement would have given me pause. I would have thought, ‘If you’re that upset over it ending, then why end it?’
I mean, yes I knew there were cheaters but I assumed that when relationships ended both sides wanted this. That it was inevitable, that they just didn’t mesh. If they did, it would not have ended.
My point being, I do think a number of people assume this. They also make the presumption that just because you are in a relationship that you are happy and satisfied with it. Hence why even when we see photos on FB of ‘the happy couple’ we are sucked into believing it–for a moment at least.
Now of course I understand why that woman cried.
Just my view.
Facebook is Narc soup and a place for broken toys. The adult version of Disney, spinning its fairytales about princes and princesses living happily ever after, complete with perfect children and never-ending wonderful experiences that must be heralded to the world. It has people believing that everyone is out there enjoying perfect vacations and having wonderful romantic dinners out, have bottomless wallets, and that you are the only one missing out. It beckons you to join and keep the lie alive while the underbelly crawls with its toxic stew of deceit and broken dreams. It was created by Narcs as a gigantic stage to showcase their acheivements, complete with fly paper in every seat and a huge net to trap those who flock to see and have hopes of being seen themselves. If we want to start to make things better, start by living your own life and getting off Fbook.
Its the gateway drug that feeds and encourages disorders like Narcissism at the very least.
Ha. Very well said NarcAngel.
That’s why I deleted my Facebook account over two years ago. I just couln’t stand the BS and the fakery anymore.
All my friends joined facebook; not me and I don’t regret it, NA. Most of them have since deactivated their accounts.
Hi narcangel….thats a perfect description of facebook. I think so many aspects of the internet you can lose yourself. Social medias the worst tho and caters to those with personality disorders.
NA, EmP and K,
Good to know I am not the only one who is not on Fakebook and Twatter.
Twatter made me laugh, E.B.! I am eating lunch and laughing at the comments from you and NA.
Hi K,
I would like give proper credit to HG here.
He mentioned it in Three Little Empaths. Highly recommended.
Education, advice and entertainment all in one 🙂
E.B.
The Three Little Empaths is a riot! It is one of my favorite articles.
Exactly….Fakebook…I wish more parents could see it from our view. Perfectly stated…
I didn’t stand a chance. An anchor for everyone else I let myself drown only to get dragged under even further.
I feel so so foolish for falling for the manipulation.
I don’t want this to ever happen again.
I wonder why we met, sometimes wishing we never did. I believe something from his past has made him this way, & he blames everybody for his pain & wants to inflict it onto everyone else just to see how far he can push them until they “break.” Just to see if they can endure as much as he did, but somehow I still believe we have lessons to learn from each other.
Oh, my sociopath
I feel relieved I never became IPPS with one of them. That would have been a nightmare. After discovering your site, I implemented GOSO.
I’m relieved I know what to watch for by way of Hoover as well, as that could have sucked me back in before but not now, as I’ll recognize it.
I was IPPS for the drunk, but I never got too swept up (we lived seperately) as I saw abuse markers well enough, and kept a good emotional distance
I’m so grateful I kept a seperate life. Because now that I know, I can (and have)!go total NC easily enough.
I wish I’d known what I know now, because it is so clear and obvious now, and really the only thing that kept me in both relationships was not understanding what was happening. If I’d known, I’d not have bothered for long with either of them.
Once I knew, I implemented GOSO with the second guy.
..the first guy, the drunk, I came to my own decision to GOSO and implemented no contact myself when I ended it. But now even HIS behaviour all makes sense,
I felt from day one I was trying to climb a Mountain to reach him. The nearer I got, the more obstables were placed on the path.
14 years on and off, probably about 50 percent actually together. First thought his behavior was due to alcohol with bipolar issues. He uses triangulation and flying monkeys which confused me and kept me from realizing that he was instigating their attacks and interference. The discards and silent treatments gave me incentive to read and find support groups, (Al-Anon was lifesaver for me). The last 3-4 years he has really been more of a science experiment to me. Overriding thoughts for me is that dopamine and behavior addiction reinforce their obsessions and just like heroin addicts, they seek an elusive high but from many different sources.
I chose 3, and hovered over the “utter hatred” when I realized the hatred and malice isn’t there anymore.
It is as I told him it would be. Despite his best efforts, I am still who and what I have always been. He did not and will not break me.
Hatred has been replaced with curiosity and a quest for all the knowledge I can absorb, from a safe distance. I will likely always wonder how an innocent infant is turned into an empty shell that should have been a human being. That part saddens and angers me, for the narcissist. Broken beyond repair.
I guess I learned the hard way that your kind even existed. I’ve coped with many challenges in my life, but dealing with a N became a journey I will not forget any time soon. It was like I was put on a rollercoaster with a blindfold and without a safety belt, what a ride it was… Why did I ignored so many red flags and let this miserable person treat me the way he did, control and manipulate me? What kind of “magic” or “power” had this person over me? These are just some of the many many questions I kept asking myself. With HG writings and insights I know now it was my own emotional thinking that allowed this. I fed him (N) to feed myself. There was no magic and certainly no power. In a weird way I’m thankful for this journey as I’ve learned so much about myself as well. By reading HG’s work, through his consultations and reading comments on this blog, I feel much stronger and more educated about this subject, but I’m mostly learning how to reduce my emotional thinking and how it will benefit me to move on from this and apply it in my daily life. Only rollercoasters without a blindfold and with a safety belt for me from now on.
Thanks HG and thank you all for sharing your stories!
I wish I had known then what I know now, still hurts and I wish it didn’t. Utter hatred but relieved I am out. Wow, what a crazy smorgusborg of emotions. Kinda had hoped after all this time it would have been a distant memory with no feelings attached whatsoever.😂
From what HG says, it’s the emotional thinking that lets it still hurt. I am much better at shutting that off now…logic, logic, logic…
For me definitely the fact that I wish I knew then what I know now; I didn’t stand a chance and I wasted time, life, utter passion and all consuming love on an individual who couldn’t reciprocate any of it; instead I projected my own empathy and my own emotions onto him thinking he was my soul mate and thinking he thought and felt the same way I did. And also, quite regrettably, I still hurt and there are still times I miss him. He became such a strong force in my life and the traumatic bonding connected me unbearably tight to him. I’m still fighting that bond, feeling sad and lost at times.
On a happier note though I’m in Dubai right now concentrating on me so greetings from Dubai!
Enjoy Dubai, Catherine!
Thank you K. Today I’m heading off to the desert. It’s beautiful here. Hugs
I hope you are having a great time in Dubai, Catherine 🙂
I am E B and thank you so much. I’m enjoying it. It’s nice to think of something else than love lost and never found again;)
“Now I know and I want to ensure it will not happen again”
“I made so many (unwitting) mistakes”
I chose these two but again the option I would like to choose is not available. My overriding thought is how I wish now that I didn’t give so much of myself in support of his interests, his well-being, his passions at the cost of my own. However, I did learn much about myself as a result.
And by some miracle I managed to maintain some of my own interests and pursuits…this being a small, yet significant, tether to reality…and in the end a life-saving act because it lead to staying in touch with supportive people who ‘get it’ post escape.
This may well fit under ‘I made so many (unwitting) mistakes,’ but it feels bigger than that. I’m not even sure that what I feel is regret; because to *not* have done what I did simply would not have been me. I only know that I would have been further along on my own road…maybe? Or a necessary detour?
At least now I can make choices more clearly…flipside is; I now bear more responsibility for those choices.
Ooh, now there is a scary thought.
How could I have been so foolish? (with regard to one group of narcissists).
As for other narcissists:
I wish I could have changed the outcome.
Utter hatred.
I would have chosen “I will make them pay” but I do not know how.
Each ensnarement is a learning curve. It’s baffling to see how far they’ll go, and how people around them accept threats/word salad excuses and stick around. Reading you blog helps in learning how to deal with the ones we can’t avoid, and to avoid emotional dependency on those we can spot. Empaths will always attract and be drawn to narcissists: it’s how they both are wired.
I chose …i wish i knew then what i know now, how could i be so foolish and ive made a crapload of mistakes.
I got thinking about this question this week asking myself how am i different now from back then in regards to the relationship and still being in it. Im definitely more knowledgable about narcissism and its helped with dealing with people bc the reality are there are many with narcissism or strong narc traits. What has really changed is my own ego. Back when i met my narc i wanted the lovebombing. I wanted to be told how gorgeous i was and how much he wanted and adored me. This i now see as coming from a place of ego and on many levels reminds me of a narcissist. I wanted that to fuel my ego so id feel better about myself and feel alive. I wanted him to help my ego to distract from areas in my life i didnt want to deal with. I gobbled up all the lovebombing and enjoyed having my head in the clouds but it was foolish bc it was part of the scheme of ensnaring fresh fuel and another lifeline for my narc.
I look back to those old days and realise how egotistical it was. Lovebombing is so overdone and phoney. Now its a red flag and turn off.
If i knew what i know now im not sure if itd make a difference bc i think you have to experience it to fully learn. Im not sure it wouldve made a difference bc i wanted what i felt i needed at the time.
Ive made a lot of mistakes and regrets. I cant blame it fully on my narc bc i played a part in it all. It was the coming together of two people who had dysfunction and the outcome.
Ego is a dangerous thing and can get you into a lot of trouble. I look at friends that make the right choices and do whats right and their lives may not seem thrilling but they are at peace and happy. Meanwhile my life seems out of control at times and i live a secret life.
I feel pity for himself and for myself. For himself because he is always on the run, looking for the perfect love he will never find, every victim will let him down at some point. Every victim will wound him. It is sad, there is no hope for him.
Pity for myself because I have met him. A pity for myself because I had to deal with his empitiness. It is like loving a doll from a shop. You can be fascinated during first week, but then suddenly you realize how pitful it is – it’s a doll! It doesn’t have feelings, so you can’t love it! What a waste of time.
And thirdly, sometimes I wish he could be healthy and “normal”. But then I realize that if he was normal, he wouldn’t be with me. He would be with his child and his ex wife. So again – I can only pity him and people who got hurt by him.
I’ve said the same. If only he was ‘normal, or actually, ‘if only he was the man I thought he was, that he led me to believe he was’…but if that were the case, I would never have met him. Now, i just feel sorry for his wife, who he went back to after I dumped him. She begged him to remarry her, I heard and he did, of course. It was that or be thrown out–his adult kids were fed up and told him to basically s**t or get off the pot, because his ex wanted what she’d signed up for, not a ‘room mate, which he was then–he considered himself single while living with his ex. Which is both laughable and absurd. Anyway, they’d met when he was 19 and she 16 so it’s all she knows…effectively , he created her. So I feel sorry for her, because she doesn’t know any better, because he’s all she’s ever known. And she deserves better. I was done after a year. She spent 28 and now, is stuck with him forever. He once, when trying to Hoover me said “go on, tell me I made a mistake”. I said no. You did me a favor (by going back to her). He didn’t like that one bit. Unfortunately, the door swinging open for my release has the same sound as the cage door closing on his now, again, wife. So, I pity her.
HG when is your next book coming out? I have read all of your books and I eagerly await the next one.
Not exactly pity, but feeling truly sorry for them. Narcs have no idea how much they lose…how much value people have that they never see (they might think they “see” people’s valuable traits, in order to manipulate them…but really they are blind). And it’s so sad–so pathetically sad– that narcs have a talent for finding people who are capable of deeply loving them, who would walk through fire for them, and yet they will not benefit from that in any long-term way, because they are built to hurt and lose everyone. Like someone who is brilliant at finding precious things, but is incapable of doing anything with them other than damaging them and then throwing them away because they are “damaged.” Just sad.
I’m badly damaged now, but I will heal. The narcissist never will.
Leslie – much of what you say resonates with me but especially this statement:
“Like someone who is brilliant at finding precious things, but is incapable of doing anything with them other than damaging them and then throwing them away because they are ‘damaged.'”
If only we each could *own* our particular preciousness; then maybe we would not need someone to reflect this back to us.
To be honest, I don’t feel sorry for them. I actually envy them at times.
They are immune to pain, to remorse, and they always get what they want in the end, because fuel is so much easier to find than love.
And don’t forget that, in addition to fuel, IPPSs and IPSSs bring character traits and residual benefits to the table.
Triple gain.
Yes, they are throwing our love to waste, but, in the end, it is not love they are interested in so…what are they really losing here?
While it takes us AGES to get over them, and we are always left scarred and damaged, they just put us aside and move on.
We believe we are unique (which we are really) but they don’t see us like that. Would you see your hair straightener as unique? Yes, it might have cost you a fortune and if it breaks, you will likely get very annoyed. But hey, there are plenty of other hair straighteners out there. Also, you know what? You can get yourself a ‘shiny and new’ hair straightener now…or maybe replace the broken one with the spare one you kept in your dresser, just in case.
Sometimes I wonder if they are better off than we are, EmP. I like what you wrote.
EmP,
I have witnessed more pain and anguish in the narcissists I have known than in anyone else I have ever met. And I don’t think they are immune to anything (except maybe remorse)… they’re just good at shifting their pain and deep self-loathing (which they spend their lives trying to hide, from themselves and others) onto other people, for certain amounts of time. Also look up “narcissistic decompensation”…what happens to a narcissist who is no longer getting enough supply or validation of their false self is not pleasant.
Humanity involves vulnerability, loss, suffering…I still prefer to be human and not a monster. (I do think narcissists are human, for the record. But how they choose to behave is monstrous.)
I can understand envying them somewhat when we go through the terrible pain that they cause us. But would you really rather be the one causing that pain to others? Yes, they move on…to the rest of their shallow, miserable, destructive lives. Whereas we are able to make real connections with other (unique and precious) human beings, and have the chance to be in a lasting relationship with someone who loves us for who we really are. Narcissists lose those things whether they realize it or not.
Hi Leslie (replying to my own post lol).
A bit of background: Mid-Ranger mother, Lesser father, Lesser sister, several narcissistic boyfriends/partners (covering all the three schools), various narcissistic bosses = extensive experience in narcissism.
Awareness thanks to HG’s work.
I have been around narcissists all my life and I have never seen any of them show anguish or pain. Rage, yes. Frustration, yes. Restlessness, yes.
I wouldn’t want to be a narcissist (not that I have the option anyway) but these people don’t suffer the way we do. They are addicts, at worst. And they have it so much easier in life – I have to admit this really annoys me.
I could have easily morphed into one of my parents (like my sister did) but no, I had to turn out a freakkin’ empath (with a couple of narcissistic traits) and that was it.
Anyway, I do not believe in the self-loathing theory. I have read this before but I am still not convinced. Narcissists think very highly of themselves, believe me. Even the low-functioning, not bright, not successful, not charming Lessers.
I remember HG describing the Creature (the “real self” of the narcissist) as a mixture of hatred, envy, malevolence and weakness. I believe he never mentioned self-loathing.
But hey, it is OK to have different
views. And of course I see your point.
Hi EmP,
(this is a reply to your other reply to me)
I respect that those have been your experiences with narcissists. And you have my deepest sympathies, for having to deal with so many!
All I can say is my experiences have been very different. And i believe they think highly of their false self, but that they know, deep down, that it is false. Also I don’t believe that anyone with healthy self-esteem treats others the way that they do.
I do think it’s annoying that they get away with so much, on the surface (whether or not they suffer deep down). And i can definitely understand your perspective that they have it easier in life…i think in so many ways, society caters to them much more than to empaths.
I still don’t envy them, at all. But I see your point too.
Hi Leslie,
Yes, it is a miracle I didn’t end up in a mental asylum (..hysterical laugh..).
Oh well, since narcissists will not change, the only way for us to “get back at them” is to understand how their twisted mind works and (try to) become as resistant as possible.
So they will not get away with SO much anymore.
Na-na-na-na-na-na.
Take care.
EmP
I understood you as saying that you do not condone abuse and have no desire to abuse others, but intellectually envy their ability to do whatever they want when they want without always having to process how it will affect everyone else as we do. Is that correct?
To be clear-the following is now separate from my comment to you but my own musings on what your post brought to mind.
I have often thought they (narcs) seem to get to live in the moment more than we do, and because of their ability to avoid emotional or moral decisions are successful financially and enjoy many things that I cannot. It must be very freeing to be able to consider only yourself. We would of course be making very different decisions (not dreaming up ways to manipulate and abuse). People argue that it is the right thing to do to always consider others and that you will die with honour blah blah blah…but I dont believe in anything after death and wonder why I must consider everything I do in the life I am actually living now in exchange for the collective approval, or in hope of some promise land later (isnt that the trap we fell into with the narc?). Even my siblings that I feel I sacrificed much for dont even seem to realize it as such. They seem to see it as me having to step up because I was oldest and it was required. I wonder often what is the payoff for me being a good girl, following the rules, and not following in StepNarcs footsteps?
I am not inviting and will not accept religious debate. I am simply stating that for those who do not subscribe to religion, there must be something else in play or what keeps us from turning the corner?
NA
Maybe you believe in mutual benefit and don’t want the feeling of having to watch your back..(from those who you wronged).
If you had neglected your siblings their behaviour towards you wouldn’t be any different so you’re thinking ‘what was the point?’
I think you have the satisfaction and ease of mind knowing that you did do the right thing back then, it may not seem like much but it is much more preferable to the alternative.
Hi Brian
In your first point I assume you mean I would have to watch my back more than I do now if I went around wronging people as he did? Possibly, because that might take even more energy than always assessing situations to stay vigilant against them as I do now.
I could not have neglected my siblings even if I tried. I felt compelled to do it and still do to address imbalances of power even now. The thing is-I dont expect thanks but I dont think they even see or believe as I did that they may have had a different outcome if I had not tried to shield them from what I could, or instilled in them that they were good and that it was not their fault. I hardly went anywhere or did anything because I never wanted to leave them unguarded (my view) and yet my (empath) sister appeared confused recently when she asked if I did not have any happy memories of my childhood and my youngest brother turned out to be a full on clone of StepNarc. Thats when I wonder wtf? Why didnt I just go off and get mine and leave them to the wolves?
Or to use you words recently:
Well fuck, that was a waste of time.
Ok Im laughing really hard now.
This is my reply to NarcAngel (not sure how to make the comment appear in the right ‘location’…and in my defense I suck at technology).
So anyway, yes, I do not condone abuse. And yes, I do envy narcissists sometimes.
Being emotionally impaired and amoral makes life a lot easier, damn it.
As to the rest of your post, my answer to it would be a quote from a criminologist I really like: “You can’t be other than what you are”.
That is the very reason why, as HG says, narcissism can NOT be eradicated and we can NOT get rid of our empathic traits.
On the BRIGHT SIDE, we all have found a great mentor.
The best we could find, actually.
So not all is lost.
NA
Oh i can see how it seems like a waste of time if one turned out to be a narc-clone.
Hello Leslie,
It is understandable that you feel sorry for them because you are looking at it from your empathic lens.
Now that I understand how they function, I see things differently: I do not feel sorry for them, I do not think they need to be healed ( in the sense that we empathic people see it). It is because:
1. We process our world from emotions, they process theirs from practicality.
2. They have a different brain wiring, and driven by different actions, thoughts and processing of the world.
3. You mentioned the key word when you stated:
” Like someone who is brilliant at finding precious THINGS, but is incapable of doing anything with them other than damaging them and then throwing them away because they are “damaged.” Just sad.”
That si exactly how they see people through their non-empathic lens ( the only one they have ) as things /elements to serve a purpose in their functioning: to provide them with constant validation and admiration.
4. You as an empath, have the great ability of allowing yourself sometimes being cognitive by training to be less emotional and sometimes being emotional( having a wider spectrum of emotions than the narcissist has who is deprived of/ or its is deeply hidden i.ex. the feeling of love and empathy)
That is to say your ability of feeling love and empathy allows/makes you to see the world with other perspective and see and FEEL people in a different way than they do. They just can’t do it the same way you do.
They do not feel the need to be healed ..
For them is more the need of repairing the narcissistic wound when it takes place in order to continue functioning and always looking for ways to improve its effectiveness. Either this is done unconsciously as a mean of surviving ( lower schools) or consciously ( upper schools).
They are different entities than us.
When you truely understand the way they function and that is different from the way you do: YOUR healing will be faster.
Your comments are very interesting and insightful, SuperXena.
Thank you EB!
Hi SuperXena,
Did I sound like I feel sorry for them only in a loving and empathetic way? I’m surprised if none of my anger came through in my comment. I felt incredibly angry when i wrote it.
I don’t agree that they process the world from a standpoint of practicality. I think they are every bit as emotional as we are, only in different ways…moreso, in some ways. They would love for us to think they aren’t, though.
And with regard to “practicality,” narcs have trouble with the concept of cause and effect, among other things. The narcs I have known have messed up a lot of things in their lives, because of that…including what *they* consider important (like securing good supply). They can be sophisticated con artists…beyond that, I don’t think they are very practical.
I know they objectify people. And that they see the world differently. It’s like lacking a sense entirely (like smell or taste), and not knowing what they are missing. They are still losing something of incalculable value, despite not being aware of it.
Unlike deaf or blind people, the sense that they are missing (empathy, a conscience…) is not morally neutral…it leads to them hurting people. So i don’t think their perspective on whether they “need to heal” or not carries much weight.
I agree that understanding them can help our healing. That’s why I find this site helpful. But once we do understand a lot, it is okay to also see them from an educated but NON-narcissistic point of view…to consider our OWN perspective valid, instead of endlessly trying to get inside their disordered heads.
We can understand their disorder without accepting it as a valid way to look at the world. (Again…it isn’t morally neutral. They aren’t just “different” in some benign way.) Remembering to validate our OWN perspectives can help speed our healing, too… can counteract some of the gaslighting.
As part of my healing, I’m celebrating my ability to see the value in people, including myself, that narcs are unable to see (and which does *not* disappear when narcs don’t see it. I know they don’t see it…that’s why i said they are blind).
And I’m paying more attention to my own opinions, of their behavior… not continuing to be ruled by the narc’s warped reality. I get it, really, i do…and I’m sick of it, and I reject it.
Hi Leslie!
Thank you for your answer. I think you misunderstood some of my statements. If you read my comments, you will find that I didn’t add any moral value to them. It is obvious that I CONDEMN ABUSE in any form !
What I was trying to convey to you ( as of own experience in my own process) is that the moment I understood why and how it happened was the moment that pushed me over the threshold to my freedom.
The less energy I spent condemning , hating and abhorring my ex and canalising it to me instead , to my own developing and growing the faster I got my freedom back.
I just thought that knowing this would help you in your own process. The pace of your process being different than others. Anger is something I experienced as well first…it is understandable.
1. “Did I sound like I feel sorry for them only in a loving and empathetic way? I’m surprised if none of my anger came through in my comment. I felt incredibly angry when i wrote it. ”
Hard to know how you sound since I just read what you wrote. Anger is an understandable feeling in the process. I meant that you are looking at this as an empath ( which I assume you are). So there is no other way of looking at things but from your perspective as an empath.
2.” I don’t agree that they process the world from a standpoint of practicality. I think they are every bit as emotional as we are, only in different ways…moreso, in some ways. They would love for us to think they aren’t, though. ”
I never said they were not emotional…they do have emotional thinking . Their emotions are limited to :anger, fury, jealousy, contempt. Something that I experienced with my ex.
They lack though the ability of love, care, empathy and attachment.
3. ” And with regard to “practicality,” narcs have trouble with the concept of cause and effect, among other things. The narcs I have known have messed up a lot of things in their lives, because of that…including what *they* consider important (like securing good supply). They can be sophisticated con artists…beyond that, I don’t think they are very practical.
Practical I meant in regards their relationship to people. Once they do not serve a function to them they dispose them. And this is due to their inability to attach. A raw analogy: what would you do with a dishwasher when it starts malfunctioning or it breaks? Do you replace it or do you keep it because you are emotionally attached to it? I know it sounds very harsh and cruel even when I am writing this to you..but that is the way they see people.
4.” I know they objectify people. And that they see the world differently. It’s like lacking a sense entirely (like smell or taste), and not knowing what they are missing.” They are still losing something of incalculable value, despite not being aware of it. ”
Since they do not have empathy or the ability to love, they can’t understand this.
Yes, you have the ability of FEELING ,loving people something they can’t. And you should be proud of it.
5. “They are still losing something of incalculable value, despite not being aware of it. ”
Agreed but: For those who are not aware of it, they do not even know what they are missing. For those who are aware, they might say that they are not missing anything….something that I doubt since you can’t say you do not miss something until you have experienced it.
6. ” Unlike deaf or blind people, the sense that they are missing (empathy, a conscience…) is not morally neutral…it leads to them hurting people. So i don’t think their perspective on whether they “need to heal” or not carries much weight. ”
Yes, they do hurt people..I never said they do not. They do not care about hurting people..that is to say under their perspective there is nothing “wrong” with that. Doesn’t matter how many times you tell them or spend energy to make them understand this ..it is a total waste of time and energy.
Canalise that energy to you and stay away from them instead and spread the knowledge about this to avoid other people to get entangled with them and get hurt.
7.” I agree that understanding them can help our healing. That’s why I find this site helpful. But once we do understand a lot, it is okay to also see them from an educated but NON-narcissistic point of view…to consider our OWN perspective valid, instead of endlessly trying to get inside their disordered heads. ”
Agreed: understanding how they function does not make your perspective invalid! It helps you to understand why you have to stay away from them and why you should spread the knowledge that you are getting here.
8.”We can understand their disorder without accepting it as a valid way to look at the world. (Again…it isn’t morally neutral. They aren’t just “different” in some benign way.) Remembering to validate our OWN perspectives can help speed our healing, too… can counteract some of the gaslighting. ”
Again: understanding how they function DOES NOT MEAN YOU ACCEPT IT. It is their perspective and that does not mean that you have to accept it or engage with them.
9.” As part of my healing, I’m celebrating my ability to see the value in people, including myself, that narcs are unable to see (and which does *not* disappear when narcs don’t see it. I know they don’t see it…that’s why i said they are blind). ”
Valid points: you should be proud of having the ability to see and feel people according to your perspective.
10. “And I’m paying more attention to my own opinions, of their behavior… not continuing to be ruled by the narc’s warped reality. I get it, really, i do…and I’m sick of it, and I reject it.”
Nobody is forcing you to be ruled by their reality and it is a big advancement that you are turning this knowledge to your own development and personal enrichment.
And that is exactly what this site is all about : to understand that you do not have to be ruled by their reality.
Understanding their reality is not the same as accepting it !
I wish you luck in your aftermath process. I hope as well that you find my feedback somehow useful .
..just adding ( as if my former answer was not long enough):
I understand you thought about the need for them to be “healed”.
If you look it this way:
Take as an example any sickness you want:
The flue. There is no way of “healing” the virus and you can’t deny the existence of the virus that causes this infection/ sickness. Do you win something by saying how awful the sickness is and condemn it ? No. Wouldn’t you rather find out the way not to get sick? Wouldn’t you instead take the vaccine to protect yourself and spread the knowledge of this vaccine so people do not get sick?
How desperate I must have been to tolerate this shit.
Exactly. I still wonder why I gave him so many free passes. Because I didn’t value myself enough to know I deserved better. Then, once you realize you do deserve better, it makes this treatment all the more abhorrent.
Hello Horseyak,
You shouldn’t be so hard to yourself now when you look in retrospect and understand what happened.
It wasn’t you the one that was desperate. You were TRAINED /MADE to feel desperate by manipulating, luring , duping and “training” you into an addiction by very high “highs”( expressions of “love”) followed by very low “lows” (devaluations). If I put it in other way, I could say that you are not really you when being with a narcissist ( in a close relationship) but he/she turns /tries to turn you with time to be the one he/she needs you to be.
SuperXena: exactly. Trauma bonding is so powerful, and any human being–not just ones who are desperate or have low self-esteem–is susceptible to it. Narcissists make us more desperate and needy over time, through insidious abuse that often we don’t notice until we are already in a trauma bond. That doesn’t mean that is who we are, or were at the beginning of the relationship…often it is just the effects of abuse.
Hello Leslie,
Thank you for your comment. You mentioned something important in this process of complete detachment from the narcissist:
If your self-esteem has been eroded but you initially had it , this will be a decisive factor that will make it possible to escape the narcissist since I do believe that when you get to the point of enough is enough enough, your self-esteem will be regained again and give you the strength to cut the emotional cords.
Best wishes
1. wish I knew then what I know now
2. didn’t stand a chance (I got my fucking ass kicked)
3. utter hatred
4. it could have been so wonderful (what a pipe dream/fantasy)
I only voted for 4, however, I still want to build my gas chamber and zyklon B my narcs. (make ’em pay)
P.S. don’t let my hatred/malice belie my indifference. I am working on malice control while I am on probation.
Oh fuck that was a waste of time
Ab-so- bloody- lutely Brian, they sure are, couldn’t have put it any better myself. You hit the nail on the head perfectly.
Haha. Nice add Brian.
Amen to that, Brian.
haha nice to see im not the only one feeling that
It would have to be that I didn’t stand a chance. I have historically been sooooooo arrogant when it comes to powerful men. It was my mission to control them since I had no control when I lived with my pedophile stepfather. I thought that would heal me. That was certainly wrong.
I wouldn’t have believed anyone if they had told me I didn’t stand a chance with a narcissist. I mean I really really thought I could take down anyone who tried to control me.
I see how foolish that was now but I don’t shame myself for it. I had no idea my mother or birth father were narcissists…how could I know that I was dating my father in different skin each time I got entangled with a narcissistic man?
Oh well, I certainly know now 🙂 HG made me right sized real quick. Turns out I’m a sheep with a lion…dead.
I am thankful to him in a way. He found every insecurity I had and exploited them. Once I realized what was happening, I saw the parts of myself that actually did need work (not the parts he said did). I am working through a lot but in the end he forced me to be stronger and reminded me not to let anyone get in the way of me being me.
Yes, that’s it ! He woke me up. Now I can see what was wrong in m’y life, in my behaviors, in my soul. But I’m still so angry. So so angry
Eileena:
Yes, THIS! In fact, when my narc attempted his first false discard and said “You are at a pivotal point in your life and it wouldn’t be fair for me to manipulate your feelings. Should I leave you be?” My response was: “No. You have woken me up, and I don’t want to go back to sleep.” How ironic. In some ways, every time he hurt me was a giant wakeup call! But I didn’t truly wake until I found HG’s writings and went No Contact.
I agree with you – I am still with th Narc and I know my time with him is avoidance to take care of my things. I have started to work on my insecurities and reflect and I have escaped and came back but I agree with you – I had 4 Narc in a row – 3 mid and now a great and I know – I have something to pull out for me out of this.
I have heard that reasoning. It is bullshit. You did have weaknesses, but so do children. There is nothing wrong with innocence. From here on out, now that you tasted the fruit of knowledge of good and evil , like eve, ask yourself what is the love that could sustaine you an eternity
Nothing wrong with innocence but the need for validation, the I am chosen, I will save him, I am the one , I am valued, all those inner dialogues results of insecurities and lack of self love make us stick and glue to the narc at the beginning – when we don’t know better – we get easily stuck – when we know better we see how our flaws played a role in all this.
Gabrielle: I can resonate with feeling this way also. Narc abuse sucks and is inexcusable, but there is something to having my weaknesses illuminated that provokes an opportunity for self-awareness and growth.
I still want to know why I specifically was targeted what he really wanted from me and how he became a narc was he born that way or did something cause it other than that so I chose four things but the main was I still don’t understand I know I’ll never get these two answers
Ugotit,
Have you read “Sitting Target – How and why the narcissist chooses you”?
He chose you for fuel, traits and residual benefits, Ugotit. You are an empath and he chose wisely, because you are brimming with fuel. I would have chose you, too, if I were a narcissist. It is very likely either his mother or his father is a narcissist and he was subsequently abused and the result is NPD; he wasn’t born that way, although there is a genetic component, it is NPD abuse that creates the narcissist.
I totally agree, K
Narcs are created in horrendously abusive environments.
That’s why I chose ‘I pity him’. He never told me about it, but there’s no doubt in my mind.
When I think of him, the idea of him as a child, standing up to the abuse can make me cry. It can make me terribly mad at his parents, at his grandparents, at mankind (as if that makes sense…).
Why can’t we find a solution, we as humans, to prevent this from happening? To prevent humans from becoming de-humanized?
That’s what I believe they become : de-humanized, a non-person, a series of defense mechanisms with no persona. No one there… No emotional attachment to others possible anymore. I once heard Sam Vaknin say to a woman in the public: “I don’t feel anything more for you than for a long-necked giraffe” Narcissism in a nutshell.
Anyways, they are all about fuel now. They know how to find the taps, they know how to spot them on people and how to open them. That’s why we were chosen. No more, no less.
My heart cries for them. They will resist such compassion, they find that belittling, it makes them too small.
So I let them be.
Shesaw
You are right, narcissists are created in horribly abusive environments. I watched my mother and father “turn” my twin into a narcissist. I remember loving him and trying to protect him but I couldn’t, so I stood by and cried while they abused him. It was brutal. My MMRN would say things about his childhood that indicated things weren’t right but not enough for me to get a clear picture. Sometimes, I feel a tremendous sadness regarding the abuse they suffered. To be so little, fragile and utterly defenseless and unable to protect yourself. The betrayal and horror is inexplicable. I wish we could fix it. No child should be treated like these children were.
Now, they are wired to acquire fuel, they cannot be fixed and that is why we are chosen. It is as simple as that; it is survival.
Our tears and compassion is a sign of weakness and all they feel is contempt or mistrust for that. Better to hide it from them and let them be.
Oh K, now my heart cries for you even more! What a terrible experience, to see this happen in front of you ,with someone you love. How terribly powerless you must have felt.
I am too lucky to have only known 1 narcissist (my ex) at an intimate level in my life. I realise that being raised by one (ore more) must have a much deeper influence on your soul, and it must demand a lot of bravery to handle that.
Wish you peace, K., and all others who are in the same situation. Be well!
Thank you for your kindness, Shesaw, and I wish you peace, too! Things are better now that I am here and understand what I am dealing with.
Yes, I see that happening K, you are strong! I read it from your comments 😉 Keep up the good work!
Awwww…thank you Shesaw! I got a bit teary-eyed after reading that. It has been a very difficult journey but thanks to you, all the other bloggers and HG, I am doing much better now. And thanks for reading my comments! That made me feel good! I have been marginalized my whole life until now.
I don’t know why I was targeted either, but more importantly why I dropped my level of standards and my initial thought of my first impression which was “ughh, he’s ugly”, “I can’t go out with that”, Thought I’d switch up and try an “easy” relationship, ha, ha, ha – the joke was on me and he had the last laugh – discard! Lesson learned though – self healing and that is what I am doing.
He still controls my every move, my every thought, every day
whymechooseme,
Is he stalking or harassing you?
Hi EB
Sorry to interject here. Glad to catch up to you to be able to thank you for your help with the email and WordPress. All seems to be working at present, so once again-thank you. Much appreciated.
NA
Hello NA,
Glad to hear it is working for you now. If the problem with Gmail persists, you can also sign up for a new email account and create a new WP profile, if you wish.
Thank you for writing here because I am not receiving comment notifications from previous articles at the moment. There are different ways to set up notifications and it seems there are conflicts between them.
In case you reply to old comments of mine and you do not get a reply, please let me know. I have to visit articles manually and search for comments and replies. I do not always have the time to do this. Pages need a lot of time to load. Yesterday it took me up to 25 minutes to post a comment. I use different browsers until the Post Comment button and other controls (depending on how I reach WP) are visible.
Getting myself and my son unentangled
I wish that with each Narcissistic relationship I was in, I wish that I didn’t spend so much time jumping through hoops to prove something. I was already enough, and I should have left when the Narcissist(s) acted otherwise.
I wish I knew then what I know now.
Same here!
I am still hurting. I know he is the way he is because of his disorder. I am still somewhat in denial; I don’t want to accept that he is a narcissist. I still can’t believe that he doesn’t care. We were together for a little over 4 years and made plans for a pretty good future together. I didn’t do anything wrong or horrible to him. He devalued and discarded me within about a 4-5 week period. And now I am erased from his mind and his life. It hurts a lot.