Fuel : What Makes the Narcissist Function
Fundamental reading for anybody who has been involved with a narcissist.
86 thoughts on “Fuel : What Makes the Narcissist Function”
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I have truly appreciated the thoughts expressed on this page. Thank you everyone for offering these varying viewpoints.
My own views seem nebulous, but the question to me seems to involve “need” – how do we decide what we need, what is “necessary?”
A newborn baby needs to breathe and be fed, to be cleaned – but if this is not done in response to his cries = his only way of communicating these needs – the baby stops crying, has received the message he does not affect his environment.. A premature baby thrives when placed skin on skin with a caregiver – being held, a physical expression of care & love, helps a baby live.
Open to interpretation, I allow, but to me, these examples demonstrate we need each other, to care for each other, to love – make healthy attachments, and when we don’t get it in a healthy way, the resulting behaviour adaptation is not the ideal way a child was meant to grow up, – thus, why we might consider “abnormal” – as outside the population norm, or, broken. It was not ideal, not as intended, when a child is abused. A child should not be abused.
I feel strongly that we humans are meant to interact, that we’re all in it together, and when we treat each other in loving, healthy ways, everyone benefits – so, I don’t see love as binding – beyond attachment – yes, we develop attachments, but healthy attachments are not burdensome, or limiting, or binding, but rather help everyone be more independent.. that strong sense of self… vs control…
I do not except her for being as she is. I will crush her.
I love the malice, HG.
“Because love evades the darkness, because it is THE power and creative force in this world,”
This is why we have Hallmark Cards. I guarantee the great artists of the world did not create their works because of ‘love’. Love is irrelevant when it comes to ‘creative forces’.
I am a creative person who has to fight this sort of sentimentality constantly. It tires me.
There is more to life than love and ‘simply being happy’. For some, they achieve satisfaction via their sense of purpose, whatever that is. To suggest that love is above all things is…well, bollocks.
I have never subscribed to this because it suggests that something is ‘wrong’ with someone if they don’t feel this or subscribe to this belief. If that person isn’t bothered by it, then there shouldn’t be anything ‘wrong’ with it.
However, the problem arises when that person harms others, as result. And darkness is peaceful. What is wrong with darkness? That’s where I dream the most.
That wasn’t meant literally and not about being artistically creative.
(I’m responding to Bibi’s last post because my posts never end up where I expect they will)
Bibi – I also create and I enjoyed your words: “What is wrong with darkness? That’s where I dream the most.”
I also enjoy the ongoing conversation about the subject of choice. Because whether or not, as a child, a narcissist chooses ‘evil’ (as we commonly understand the concept of evil); most would agree that it is either impossible – or at least extremely difficult – to undo or heal narcissism. Given the restraints of narcissism; we say it is impossible for someone with this constraint to ‘give’ love. I think there is evidence that says otherwise…
Based on Ava101’s observations about the effect of love in the world and the tangible results that we witness here on the blog and as a result of HG’s writing and consultations (I’m leaving aside HG’s personal life, as we don’t witness that) I would suggest that he uses the tools at hand to ‘feed others’ even if they are not suited to feed himself.
“Love is the opposite of binding”
– he helps us with what he shares and that knowledge, in turn, helps us break our bindings
“Love touches and heals”
– he gives us the power of understanding which helps us find our own truth and make the step towards our own self-healing
“Love can make the world a peaceful place.”
– freedom from narcs creates peace for empaths, doesn’t it? (at least peace of mind)
– by informing others, he contributes to breaking the cycle of abuse; which leads to possible further peace…no?
‘Love makes content and self-sufficient’
– we become more content with ourselves and less reliant on the narcissists and therefore work towards self-sufficiency
And as others have said to you HG, healthy love isn’t binding or limiting…but ‘freeing.’
Hearing HGs perspectives on the emotions he doesn’t have is educational, and interesting, but it does remind me that he is a narcissist, and I do feel, I can’t exactly pinpoint, but it’s similar to fear, terror, or something like this. That the person next to me would not view me as a human on par with himself.
I have had friends that I have enjoyed, that i am now sure were narcissist. I viewed them as having had some failings or damage, but I had no fear, as I wasn’t emotionally attached. But now I can’t view them as friends, when i think of them as possessing such a mindset.
HG,
Would it ever be safe to enjoy the company of a narcissist (not as an intimate) for what they bring, if the price is giving them some positive fuel when interacting with them?
Just thinking about it makes me cringe.
This feels like I shouldn’t have interactions at all with narcissists.
My brain tells me this is an emotion I should listen to.
It is possible but not if you have ever been intimate.
So no intimacy, and shields up.
Thank you
Hi perse …ive had narc friendships and for me they all went down in flames. I think the more tertiary it is the longer itll last but the closer you are its only a matter of time unless youre another narc. Two narcs ive seen get on great but theres always an alpha of the two. Its like an unspoken code and the alpha narc its understood calls the shots in the friendship. They always choose a scapegoat to pick on which is usually another person who thinks theyre a friend but as we know with narcs there are no true friends.
My closest narc friend i grew up with. Looking back i can see exactly why she ended up with npd or possibly bpd it was from the severe abusive unstable family environment. Fast forward were into our early 20s and her and her boyfriend stole a bunch of items from my parents home which i allowed her to stay at while i went to work.
She was always wanting to be in the spotlight and recieve accolades. She reminds me so much of my mother in law which they also share the same name. After she stole from me she pretended all was fine and swore it wasnt her which is was. I snubbed her until she got the message our friendship was over.
I think as a more removed tertiary friend you could enjoy a narc like we do with HG here or someone youd see briefly every so often bc their mask stays on but a close friendship i cant see it unless youre either a narc or you completely let them take over and go along with whatever they do. Basically sell your soul to the devil.
You’re right narc affair. Always a good idea to keep a certain distance.
Thank you narc affair,
They can be so interesting, entertaining, and some are able to get things done.
I just get an uncomfortable feeling in my gut, now that I know what makes them tick.
I definitely would not consider one for a close friend, and I appreciate the reminder that they will not be accountable for their actions
Perse
Hey WhoCares:
Thanks for your comment. I am just now seeing it. I get lost and sometimes forget where I posted. 😀
To follow up with what K said above–love and empathy are good things but they can easily be exploited, as we all know. They can also hold us back, if we let them, where we feel an obligation for someone we have no obligation to.
I would be interested in hearing more what others have done to incorporate HG’s ideas into their own daily life (even excluding the specific narc).
As example, I defriended on FB an old bf who I was just keeping around out of nostalgia b/c I realized he’d never been nice to me, so why am I bothering? Delete.
I accept not everyone is going to share my view and so not to force relationships that won’t work. Let them go.
Trying to manage a balance between the emotion and logic and knowing in what times either or both should be applied.
—
I do agree with what some others have said, in that, even though what you are, HG, allows you a certain ‘advantage’ or ‘freedom’ yet at the same time you’re stuck having to rely on others for fuel, which I have to say, is much easier when you can just do it yourself and NOT have to be constantly seeking it out.
I do admit I enjoy some external fuel. Who doesn’t? But constantly depending on it, in my mind, would be exhausting.
The way I see it from my perspective is that you are unabke to generate any of your own self worth on your own. You must extract it from others. You need other peoples emotions to give you that positive or negative. You need to see reactions to remind you that you are alive and you matter.
Hi lori,
I made the mistake to think that the midranger was broken as well. That thinking destroyed me. They are not broken at all. They choose evil over good because that is what they have observed as a young child.
Still, they can choose love if they wanted to, if they fought their evil urges, if they fought their pride, if they realized that the universe wants them to love and practise humanitarianism. Example: abused children who turn out to be empaths. They chose love. There are many here on the blog and i applaud them.
Some adolescents choose hate instead of love, and it slowly becomes so ingrained that they cannot go back, until they eventually reach full blown npd.
I disagree Jenna choosing evil in and of its self is brokeness. I also disagree that they have a choice. They don’t thid is an all pervasive pathology that is rarely curable. These are people that were so terribly hurt and broken as children that their coping skills became pathological and maladaptive. I do not believe this is choice for them. Yes, they can choose to behave well to further an objective but they cannot sustain that long term. They cannot. Their overall coping skills are pathological. The fact that they all pretty much have the same patterns and the fact that HG can tell you pretty much how and why they do what they do suggests this is a condition not a choice
Hi lori,
I used to think like you for 1.5 yrs. But not anymore. It is not easy for them to ‘choose’ good, but it is an innate ability that all human beings have. That is why we have pple all over the spectrum. The ones who keep choosing to take, to control, etc. eventually become so accustomed to it, it becomes a rigorous pattern that is unchangeable. We have the malignant narcs who are way up on the spectrum. We have non malignant narcs who have not reached there yet, etc. This is how i look at it now, after four long yrs of narc, after knowing something is just not working out. Pple’s opinions may differ and that is fine. It is an area not well understood by the psychological community itself. Every opinion is valid and noteworthy.
Yes, poor Mid-Rangers. They always make us all feel sorry for them.
How can the world be so mean to someone so nice?
OK, I think I need to throw up now.
Now I would suggest codependency is a choice albeit and unconscious one. The codependent and the narcissist struggle with the same issue only the codependent’s true self is still in place therefore with practice training and therapy the behavior can be altered and a healthy relationship with self can be fostered. That cannot happen for a narcissist their true self no longer exists. You can’t have a healthy relationship with a self that no longer exists. They only have a false self that is just that false which is why they are frauds. When you have invented a different you you will be a fraud by nature
Jenna, if hate was the absence of love, your comment would hold true. As is it, hate is a rather specific, completely own emotion. Also, narcissists don’t feel love the way non-narcissists do. So how could they choose it?
You are a woman. Can you choose to feel having male genitalia? At most, you can imagine what it must feel like. Now, were you to go through a sex change, you might be able to learn how to feel your reconstructed male genitalia – but who is to say that natural born males feel things the same way?
Also, the idea of the universe wanting something of us is a personal perception that has relative truth value. I certainly don’t feel the universe wants me to do anything or that it even ‘feels’…
Hi morning sun,
You raise some good points. When i say ‘love’ i guess what it boils down to is how i define love, now. I now believe that love is acting in a way that is morally correct, truth instead of lies, helping instead of hurting, providing instead of taking eg. of one’s time, resources, all of these within boundaries. First, one must take care of herself/himself within moral guidelines, eg. taking care of myself does not mean subjecting myself to unfair narc behavior. Gaslighting, blame shifting, deflecting, lying, future faking – it’s all lies and it is immoral, untruths, dishonest, wrong. Nobody should subject themselves to that frm narc. If they do, that is not love. Love encompasses loving oneself and the other with a mutual give and take. The idea of love that the codependent has is not love at all. It is a dependence. I realize that now. True love is not painful, not needy, not clingy, not anxiety inducing. True love is wanting the best for yourself and the other person, and achieving this through mutual agreement and understanding. If it means letting the person go, then so be it. But that does not mean the narc can walk all over me. If he has promised me something, eg. ‘I’ll always be there for you’ then it is his responsibility to live up to that. At the same time, it is my responsibility to let him go if i observe that he is not living up to that. In the end, love encompassess honesty, morality, giving, compassion, helping. It means not holding on to the narc. It means i have acted in a moral way towards myself by not allowing abuse. I have acted in a moral way towards him by letting him go because that’s what he wanted. He, on the other hand, has acted immorally by breaking his promises and lying, and by choosing to let me go after the promises.
When i say the universe wants me to love and practise humanitarianism, i mean that it is the best course of action for human beings. We are born good. We have been given the ability to love, ie. to be moral (not the codependent version of love). We must continue to be moral. We must not choose hate or evil. We get corrupted by society. Humanitarianism is within our capacity and is a better way to interact. Healthy pple choose truth over lies, choose giving over taking (within established boundaries that don’t contradict the other moralities), choose health over illness (eg. if narc is making me get constant anxiety, i will leave him), choose respect over disrespect, etc.
Sometimes all of this is easier said than done. I make lots of mistakes, but ultimately that is the best way to proceed through life i think.
Hi lori…i agree codependants lack a sense of self and boundaries as a result of no self love. They look for validation thru others a lot like a narcissist. Many are attached to narcissists out of an intense fear of being alone bc again they lack a strong sense of self. Theyre uncomfortable in their own skin so they engage in the codependant tango with with a narcissist. They think they each fulfill each other but they dont. A healthy relationship is two whole people not two half people making one whole person which ends up being the narc.
Hi lori… i agree ppl with npd lack self love and identity and rely on others to maneuver thru life.
Lol. But HG you are a smart guy, I know you realize that you are broken in that you can neither give or receive love. You don’t even really know what that emotion is, yet you observe that much of the human race does.
I do not mean this is any insulting way. I find you a smart personable guy, but you are aware that you have a malfunction regarding love ?
Why does that amount to broken? Just because of your perspective.
I receive love – it is fuel.
I do not give it, but that does not matter.
Just because I do not need something, does not make me broken.
Your car cannot give love but that doesn’t stop it working does it?
But you do give love, right? It feels like love to us, you feel it as fuel. So what’s the problem? Win. Win. (During seduction anyway.)
It’s not genuine. It’s mirrored
Hi hg,
When did you first realize that you mirror people? How did you realize it? Ty.
At university. I saw our reflections in a mirror in a bar and noticed what I was doing. I then did it more.
Were you mirroring your girlfriend at the time or someone non intimate? What were you mirroring? Facial expressions or character traits? Perhaps this requires an article all its own? This is just fascinating! Why is it that it took looking in the mirror to realize it? Is it because you were mirroring outwardly expressive preferences such as dressing style? I have tons of questions omg! Were you mirroring outward expression of emotions only or were you trying to actually mimic the emotion itself? Is this when you realized you lack certain emotions? Is this when you realized you feel empty? Would you consider writing an article about this?
(Btw, i changed my mind. I think npd is curable, with ALOT of will power and readiness to accept hours, days, and months of feeling restless, and deprived of fuel, controlling fury, doing good instead of bad, which no narc really wants to do).
It was during seduction.
Body language, drink and certain cues.
Because when viewed from a different angle it struck me there was such a symmetry.
No recognition. I knew about the feeling of emptiness already.
NPD is not curable. You cannot inject empathy into us. The process is so hard-wired, the defence mechanism automatically acts to reject such attempts to enforce change. It cannot happen in the blink of an eye and therefore the process you describe (leaving aside the issue of whether it would actually work if adhered to) cannot work because it would take too long and the needs of the narcissist and the operation of the narcissism would defeat it. As mentioned, there may be scope for modification with the Greater school.
In that case, I would prefer to call it highly resistant to change, personally. Not changeable is so discouraging to those who want to try. But I will keep in mind that 99.9% of narcs will not change. Ty.
Those saying they will are manipulating. See “But I Can Change”.
I wish you coukd give love. Doesnt seem fair.
I get your view HG, we have two different world views and completely different ways of functioning. That’s all fine. The problem of course is your inability to interact with others on equal terms and still you seek us out because you need our attention and our fuel. And furthermore many of us unconsciously hrough previous wounds or through being dazzled by your enigmatic persona and your exciting dominance seek you out as well. Our paths should never cross. At least not from the perspective of the empath;)
Love is imo the very reason were here so it is broken that aspect. People with npd have broken souls. Their emotional development stunted. I feel deep sadness for those with npd bc they are very damaged inside. I do think ppl with npd can get help and heal.
And what is the basis for such an assertion that love is the reason we are here?
Dearest Hg,
Are any relationships you have healthy, even by your perspective?
Yes.
Hm… this toxic logic actually gave me a counter-toxic idea. Narcs as empaths’ cars to drive around on “love fuel”?
And in 50 years or so, narcs will find themselves oppressed by all the loving empaths, who know exactly what types of fuel mix best for which destination.
Hi HG…love isnt the only reason were here but its imo the main one. Were here to form meaningful connections and better mankind. To help others and build rather than tear down. I also believe were here to learn and experience and grow. My basis comes from my belief system. ….Now ive got that beatles song in my head “all you need is love” 😄
Thank you for expanding. It is based on your belief system – therefore it is purely a subjective view. You believe love works for you which is fair enough, but it does not mean this can then be universally applied.
I help people also – the difference is I do not do it because of love. I do it for me. To help some, I have to tear down others – would you prefer I did nothing?
“It’s not genuine. It’s mirrored”
No worries, most empathic love is exactly the same, just for different reasons.
Until we learn to love like an actual homo sapiens.
It is equally challenging on this side of the human brain spectrum. We just have different emotions to detect and overcome in order to be able to do it.
Society killed the idea of real love with its ridiculous romanticism love-bombing us everywhere we go.
Did you know that in the 60s people would think toothpaste was a silly idea, and nobody wanted to buy it? But then a marketing mogul came in, and who doesn’t NEED their toothpaste now?
Perspectives, perspectives.
Definitely not what we are made to see in it in these sick societies of ours.
Because love evades the darkness, because it is THE power and creative force in this world, because it can touch and heal other people (who are not you), and make the world a peaceful place. Because it is the opposite of binding, limitation, but our true potential. Love, not attachment or sick relationships. Because in a personal relationship it would mean that one wants the loved person to be happy, not to do something for oneself.
Because it makes content, self-sufficient, therefore less greedy, less hurt, less wanting or needy.
How is it logical to say your mother hasn’t treated you right and use her as justification, but on the other hand say that there isn’t anything missing? Well, I know my mother just doesn’t get it, I have given up talking to her. But the day has yet to come where I just accept her for being “different”. Because her being “different” has made my life hell and she had no right to do so.
Do you know the (chinese? buddhist?) allegory or riddle about people sitting at the dinner table but they cannot eat, because their cutlery is too long to feed themselves (no, don’t know why no other option is allowed): The “heaven” solution is that everyone feeds each other, the “hell” solution that everyone is too egoistical to feed anyone else.
But sure, why would one want to be the world to be a better place, it is only destroying itself rapidly. ….
I create. I do not do so out of love.
I have power. It is not borne out of love.
Love is not the opposite of binding – far from it, it IS binding. It is LIMITING.
Where have I stated in this exchange that there isn’t anything missing with regard to my mother? I have not done so.
I do not accept her for being as she is. I will crush her.
I did not know of the allegory but as you note, for some reason an alternative method is forbidden whereas we always create alternatives.
So your mother is missing sth but certain other narcs are not? 🙂
> I create. I do not do so out of love.
> I have power. It is not borne out of love.
> Love is not the opposite of binding – far from it, it IS binding. It is
> LIMITING.
Do you create something real?
But you’re right, in regard to creativity I have to rethink that in your case. Uhm …. where do you draw inspiration from?? Do you feel a creative spark?
You have power over others, control. But you need others for energy.
I meant real love, not being fixated on someone, not attachment. Not wanting someone for oneself. I can love you and not want a relationship with you.
So, will still have that in common about our mothers, though I don’t want to crush mine. I will just vanish out of her life and she can then try to replace me as her energy source with the money.
Please identify where I have written “My mother is missing something but certain other narcs are not?” as opposed to attempting to suggest I have written such comments when I have not.
Do I create something real? Yes.
Hi HG…you definitely do help others and myself included but you dont have to tear others down to do it. You could change that part of your npd if you chose to. You ask us to purge the infection, go no contact, change our emotional thinking patterns but what part of your npd are you willing to change? I know…it works for you but does it? We dont see your other life and the wreckage so we dont see the whole picture of your npd.
Hello NA, I was not specifically referencing what I do here when I referred to helping people. You are correct, I provide assistance here and this is as a collateral consequence of my aims. In my professional life I tear others down and that helps other people. I also accept I tear some people down and it does not help them at all, but as you know, that is not a concern to me.
You do not see the whole picture of my life, no, but it does work for me. I accept that with others of my kind who are less sophisticated and evolved, they have a more haphazard existence at times (albeit it would be far worse were it not for the self-defence mechanism of narcissism).
With all respect HG, because I don’t mean to offend you at all and I do understand your point of view, you say that you want to crush your mother. I see how you think that way; childhood wounds are the deepest and do immense and sometimes irreparable damage, but still (not of course knowing much about your childhood or your relationship with your mother) haven’t you become her, or a more successful version of her at least? Getting your revenge in that area I do understand, but you hurt other innocent women in your life as well. How can you logically defend those acts knowing how it feels to be victimised that way yourself? Your mother probably thought she wasn’t responsible for her actions and now you are not as well? I guess I cant really understand how being subjected to abuse justifies abusing others in your logical thinking?
Some years ago, within a particular organisation, a much older person higher in the organisation’s hierarchy required me to do a particular task. The task was mundane but important.
“Having had to do this myself when I was around your age, I shouldn’t really ask you to do it,” he commented.
“Why?” I asked.
He halted and looked at me and said nothing. Knowing more now, I think he thought I was taking the piss. He evidently concluded I was not as he said,
“Well, it is very important but is boring and dull and quite frankly beneath someone of your ability, but we are short-handed at present and I know you are on the square so you will get it done regardless, but having been through such drudgery myself I ought not to have you do the same.”
“If it needs to be done, it needs to be done.” I replied.
The feeling of love is a chemical reaction in our brain. Studies have shown that the brain of people with (what society calls) BPD secretes less oxytocin than (what society calls) normal people’s.
The idea of love that society currently promotes is a combination of Christian dogma (“he died out of love for us” etc.) and the Platonic idea of twin souls that was first taken up in the Italian Renaissance and then continuously regurgitated in one form or another. It is also utterly useless for anything other than entertainment (“oh I luuuuurve you so much, let me write a sonnet for you”) and selling crap to people (Vanetine’s being just the most obvious example, think the happy couple in commercials etc.). Oh, and fuelling narcissists, of course. 🙂
… and it is like it is.
This is were we differ: I have lost all empathy for my mother (thanks to you) and don’t care about her anymore, but I would not crush her on purpose because YOU have taught me that whe doesn’t know what she is and what she is doing, etc. Kind of.
And I wouldn’t treat others the way my parents have treated me, not good, empathic people.
I have learned not to let narcissistic people and other egotistical, etc. people near me, but to let my light shine on nice people (as in: not harming others knowingly and on purpose). YOU have taught me to differentiate.
But you do the opposite, – that is were it is a problem that you are lacking love and empathy. And it is a problem to yourself because this is why you see the NEED to do so.
I have kind of … forgiven my exnarcs, because they have also given me the greatest gifts (items, but also non-materialistic ones), and because they are what they are; and so on, – but there is no excuse for having hurt me. There is no excuse for you to know and continue consciously to destroy others.
But I suppose I can repeat this in perpetuity.
Today is the equinox, balance of light and dark.
I am pleased to note that you have applied what you have learned Ava101 to your benefit.
I do not need an excuse to destroy. It must be done and for entirely valid reasons.
Thank you for elaborating HG. I appreciate it. So what needs to be done needs to be done regardless of what’s right or wrong (I realise that the morality of it all only rests on my world view). In the end it’s all about survival, fuel, power and living life the way you’re wired to which isn’t necessarily better or worse than how the rest of us live our lives. Anyway the end justifies the means. You do what you do like we do what we do.
Indeed and you are welcome.
Hi HG…ty for your explanation. I value the fact were able to express our opinions and obtain feedback whereas with many narcissists youd not be able to do that so its very appreciated.
Npd is a diagnosed disorder for a reason bc it stems from maladaptive thinking and as a whole doesnt benefit the world. If everyone adopted npd as their go to way of living wed be in a lot of trouble.
Ill always be honest with my beliefs on here and i feel to sugarcoat npd is not doing you any favors and id love to see you seize the power and escape the clutches of this disorder. At the same time i mean no insult or to downplay what youve done bc youve helped so many people and your information is invaluable!
You are welcome and you contribute in interesting and constructive ways. It is to my advantage to enable people to articulate their opinions and views.
Always glad to please you.
But then you say that
A It was okay how we have been abused
B that you have been abused
🙁
See my earlier answer.
Love is a burden and will destroy you. If you want to survive, you need to lose (suppress) the love and the empathy that comes with it. When I have the chance, I will destroy my twin. Instinct drives me; it is just the way it is.
No, K: Not attachment, or relationship patterns, or being tied to someone, …. not being fixated on someone … With just love you can be attached. You can just wish another person to be happy with or without you in their life, or just see that the other person cannot be so. It doesn’t mean that you have to stay in their life, or dance the dance with them. True love can mean to get out of their lives. It does not mean suffering because of them (that helps noone), or not loving yourself, your love to self comes first.
Empathy is a great thing, just don’t limit it. And you can still have boundaries for yourself. Empathy can mean to let it go completely. Not that one MUST help, that would bind yourself, and involve yourself. That would hurt yourself. You can show empathy and even feel the pain of others, but you can also see that it is time to retreat when there is no basis. Empathy and love focusing on one person and their problems is limitation. You can be a limitless empath.
You can offer someone a meal, you can talk to someone once, but then it is up to that person to move on and take responsibility. Empathy does not mean that you burden yourself with another.
Your twin narc is a special constellation, but I see it this way: we learn through certain constellations, relationships … but we are allowed to move on and develop beyond them. You have learned and evolved, your twin won’t. You can cut the ties. My sister will never understand what she has done to me, in alliance with my narc mother, but I am done with her, I will vanish out of her life which means even more that she will have to reap what she has sown. As I won’t be there to be used by her, not for blame shifting, not for games turning the responsibility around, especially not for using my energy or sense of obligation.
You can learn when and to whom to apply your empathy, and I suppose you know better than anyone else when you meet someone where it would be lost. Then keep it inside of you, retreat, close the shutters.
I will only allow attachment again when I am 100 % sure that the other person is worthy, know responsibility and accountability for himself and possesses empathy. As a companion, not for another weird sick dance or dependencies.
ava101
Similar to your situation, I have disengaged from my matriNarc, narc sister and twin (occasional contact w/mom). No more games and no ties. However, my twin lives with my mother and when she dies the house will be sold and he will need to be dealt with. He is so violent that the police and courts will most likely have to be involved.
Two solutions: forceful commitment to the appropriate institution or homelessness.
Either way, there is no empathy, love or connection. If he freezes to death on the streets, c’est la vie and I will not be responsible for his burial.
Love and empathy are powerful and beautiful emotions, however, they can be dangerous and used against you, as I have learned here.
The narcissistic dynamic has wired us all in very unique ways, and I understand the instinct to destroy. It is wired into you and you cannot erase it. It doesn’t go away, ever.
K,
For some reason when you speak of your twin, It brings to mind the fictional character of Lisbeth Salander doing battle against her “dark” twin Camille.
I hope you win.
Perse
Thank you, Perse!
I intend on winning, plus, I was born first so that makes me superior to him and, If I remember correctly, I am labeled Twin # 1 on my birth certificate.
He is so dysfunctional that he cannot care for himself? Or did I miss something?
Wow, tough situation.
No, it doesn’t sound like there is much you could – or should – do.
I have seen it in a friend who had been abused by her family herself and dealing with it her whole life, but had to be responsible for her brother and his money. Quite a burden, which can hardly be put on a single person, especially not when personally involved.
I still don’t think you should let this overshadow your life any further. To me, it was a decision, inspired by other really strong, beacon like empaths (not many of them around it seems, who do not suffer from this trait), to finally embrace that empath part, which had up till then also only been a reason for suffering.
With my family it is simple: they have never appreciated it, but done everything to dull the spark, so I see no reason to show them that part of me any longer. They have taught me narc behaviour all my life, so this is what they will get.
But I had to forget about the money they stole from my inheritance, or it would have driven me crazy, it is not worth it.
It is all very sad, but at some point, we must accept what it is, I suppose.
ava101
You didn’t miss anything. I don’t talk too much about him here. When we were little, we loved each other and there are pictures of us playing, laughing and smiling together, however, around the age of 5-6 things changed. By the time I was 9, we hated each other. From the age of 14-22 there was a hiatus from hate/violence (neutrality), probably because we went to separate high schools, I got a full time job and I moved out (age 19). Once he started drinking he became a raging maniac. He is so violent that he can’t hold down a job.
Most of the time, I am indifferent regarding my family and I don’t think too much about them. Survival/safety forced me to break ties and I am not bothered by it much.
My mom pulls “inheritance crap” with me when I see her. I told her: I don’t give a shit about your money. Give it to the poor.
You are right ava101, it isn’t worth it and it will drive you crazy, so accept it for what it is and move on.
P.S.
My love and empathy are strong, but I have to be careful with it and I wouldn’t give it up for anything.
Uhm … HG, when you compare yourself to a car which is not broken, does this mean you regard youself as an appliance now?
I like my car and there were studies that showed that cars that got talked nicely to, lived longer.
Machine, not appliance.
Noted. That is my perception of you.
HG, I wonder if medications (anti-psychotics, antidepressants, whatever…) would alter a narcissist’s perspective/behaviour in any way? Have you ever taken any of those?
No I haven’t.
Hi hg,
“No recognition”
Is this the answer to my question “Is this when you realized you lack certain emotions?”
“Body language, drink, and certain cues”
Do you mean you ordered the same drink as she did? If so, why? Did you have your own preference of drink but you wanted her to like you so you ordered the same drink? Was that the internal dialog since you were unaware you have npd at the time? Did you reject your own preference of drink to be liked? Or did you simply not have a preference? If you did not have a preference, is this a manifestation of feeling empty? Do narcs not have preferences unless they are mirroring? I know the midranger has his own preferences separate to mine like poetry, certain sports, certain kinds of music, meditation, etc.
Sorry for all the questions. I am trying to understand this. Ty.
I meant “with just love you can be NOT attached” …
I just asked HD about the amygdala (part of brain/ center of emotions) with narcissists brain is deformed. What HD thinks and a few other points on next post.
Honestly I think when they as children learn to hate demons enter them and they live life for supply and to destroy.
No idea who this HD person is, a television perhaps?
VIctoria,
I have not read every comment here so I may have missed something, but who is HD?😧
Got a question for you HG. Do you feel you are evil? Ill probably say something unpopular here, but I find a lot of narcissists a lot of fun and very personable. I also find them often to be effective leaders and efficient decision makers and are pretty easy to deal with as long as you don’t cross them and you are not romantically involved with them. It is my general observation that you are people who literally had your hearts obliterated from hurt as children and you have come to associate love and hurt as one and the same.
So it’s not so much that you are evil, you are just broken when it comes to processing love and other vulnerable emotions.
Would you say this is accurate?
I am not broken. I am highly effective.
Some of what I do receives the label of evil. Some of what I do receives the label of good.
I am not broken either. I am a survivor. I will be adored again . . . only now I am more discerning. What I don’t understand is why you don’t stop gathering fuel by injuring others. Are you an atheist?
Why should I stop?
Hi HG…do you believe npd is correctly diagnosed as a personality disorder?
Imo npd is broken bc for many a narcissistic it….
Leaves them hopping from one relationship to another never satisfied and never able to build on anything.
Gets them in trouble with the law bc of their sense of entitlement.
Not able to self regulate emotions. They go from calm to furious in a split second.
They leave behind a carnage of people theyve….”broken” which is destructive behaviour.
I could go on and on. Healthy narcissism can be productive but npd is classified as a personality disorder bc its a broken state and it isnt an advantage when its path is destruction of all good.
That line of thinking that its a strength or another state of being imo is a great way to avoid getting help.
That being said youre different from other narcs bc you are helping people and that is productive and good. Its in your private life that the npd may be causing more damage?
I dont say this from a judgmental place bc i have a lot in my own life to address and work on but npd is not a strength its a diagnosed personality disorder. Its caused from abuse and is a coping mechanism.
Also do you agree with your mothers treatment of you? Do you think she is broken in the way she thinks and acts? She might be a different school of narcissist but she has npd as well. Npd is a disorder.
Of course I do not agree with her treatment of me. I do not regard her as broken. I know NPD is described as disorder. It is a disorder to those who do not have NPD, but it is not so, to us.
In my eyes, HG you are perfect.
anonymous,
I am curious why you included the question “Are you an atheist?”
anonymous,
Rather than wait for a reply, I’d like to explain why I ask.
I am an atheist. I believe I am not a narcissist. I am a (secular) humanist. An ordained minister.
Many narcissist do subscribe to some sort of religion, so a belief in a supreme being does not disqualify one from being a narcissist. Nor does a disbelief in a supreme being necessarily make one a narcissist, nor a disordered person in any way.
I wanted to clear this up. I really would appreciate it if you would think about this before you assume you know what being an atheist means in regard to how they would treat other people.
Thanks,
Perse