Dealing With The Evidence
Proof. The empathic individual has certain traits which mean gathering proof and exhibiting that proof to the narcissist and other parties is highly important. An empathic person is honest, decent, believes in the truth and has to have the truth known. This is not done from any sense of gloating or about showing how clever and virtuous the empathic person is. The empath operates this way because: –
- They want the truth to be known by third parties;
- They want to demonstrate that they are correct;
- They want to preserve their self-worth by showing the truth of the situation;
- They want to show other people that the narcissist is in the wrong;
- They want to demonstrate to the narcissist that what the narcissist has done or said is wrong. This is often done to try to help the narcissist, to heal and to fix, rather than engage in point scoring;
- It is done to preserve their sanity in the face of the false reality and all its manipulations which are deployed by our kind.
It often takes an empathic person a considerable amount of time to realise that merely explaining what has happened to our kind gets them absolutely nowhere. You may know precisely what has happened but if your recollection of events, no matter how accurate, does not accord with what we require, challenges us, stops us achieving our aims or worst of all constitutes a criticism, we will do anything and everything we can to distort your truth.
I use the phrase ‘your truth’ because it is always important to keep in mind that with each and every situation there is the Empathic Perspective and there is the Narcissistic Perspective. For example, you serve food for everybody and you start with the person nearest to you and this results in our kind being served last. From the Empathic Perspective, you regard this action as the most practical and the politest. From the Narcissistic Perspective, we view this as a criticism; we should have been served first. This criticism results in us being wounded, this causes the ignition of our fury and we may storm out of the dining room through our cold fury or we may fling the plate at the wall as a manifestation of heated fury, either actions occurring in order to draw fuel to heal the wound that has been created by your criticism of us.
Thus, you have the same event but two different perspectives. If you tried to explain to us that you had served people ahead of us because of practicality all you would be doing is repeating the criticism to us and igniting the fury once again. We will only have regard to our perspective and in the ensuing conversation we would engage in deflection, projection, blame-shifting, word salad and other manipulations to reject what you are asserting. From your perspective it appears innocuous, an over-reaction on our part, but from our perspective our response is completely justified.
What of a situation whereby you suspect we have been cheating with somebody else? Let us assume you have followed us and saw us pick up another woman who we embrace in our car and then head off to some secluded spot, a hotel or another location for the purposes of the tryst. You do not confront us but observe and then wait for our return that evening. You decide to remain calm and when we walk in through the door you state,
“You are cheating on me with a blonde-haired woman. I saw you pick her up this afternoon, kiss her and then I followed you to The Happy Ending Motel and saw you go in a room together.”
If you said this angrily, we would draw fuel from your reaction. We would recognize that this is an opportunity to gain more fuel from you and therefore we would look for ways to provoke you further. You are also challenging us. Whilst it does not manifest as a criticism, we still do not appreciate you trying to challenge our superiority and our entitlement to do as we please.
If you made this comment in a calm and neutral manner, you do not provide us with any fuel. You are also criticising us.
You have seen what has happened. It is not hearsay but you have witnessed our behaviour and you have told us so, providing sufficient detail to confirm its legitimacy. What might you hear in response? There are many different replies.
Denial “No I haven’t. I have been at work all afternoon.” Yes, we will be this brazen. Lies come easily to us.
Deflection. “Yes I was dropping a colleague off. She is staying there for a few days and we needed to talk about a project. You know the new plans for the development in the Old Quarter, well we are involved in that now and we need to put a proposal together in a very short time.” On we go talking about something else.
Projection. “I wasn’t doing anything wrong, not like you and that fellow, what is he called, Mike, I saw you getting close to him last week when you went for coffee.” This may or may not be true, it does not matter. It serves to draw a reaction from you and allows us to move the conversation away from what we have done.
Blame-Shift. “Who do you think you are following me? Who gives you the right to do that? There is something wrong with you. I am sick of you trying to control me.”
Blame-Shift. “So what if I am seeing somebody else, if you put out more than once in a blue moon, I wouldn’t have to go elsewhere would I? I am sick of working hard and coming in to this kind of crap.”
Disappearance – we just turn around and walk back out and disappear to some bolt hole for a few days.
Denial and Projection “I think you are mistaken, are you imagining things again? You keep doing this.”
Deflection and Gas Lighting “Oh that, nothing to worry about there, she is new to the company and I was showing her to where she is staying until her new apartment is ready. I know her from the Southern Office, so I greeted her with a kiss, that was all. Anyway, I told you I was doing this last week, don’t you remember? Yes, I told you all about it over dinner, you must have forgotten again. You seem to be doing that a lot recently.”
Verbal assault “Who do you fucking think you are? You are a miserable old cow. Creeping around watching what I am doing. Jesus, you are so fucking sad, I am sick of you. Look at the state of you.” Cue a tirade of insults which may escalate into breaking things and even attacking you.
No matter how you try to point out to us that you have seen us, you know what you saw, you know what the other woman looks like we will not hear what you are saying.
If you keep going and do so in an emotional manner, all we focus on is the fuel that we are giving you and continuing to provoke you to get more fuel.
If you do it without providing fuel, all we hear is the criticism. This wounds us and forces us to seek fuel from you (or if you continue not to provide it we will be forced to withdraw and seek fuel elsewhere).
We will not accept what you are saying, no matter how convincing you are and no matter how much detail you provide. You will be accused of making it up, reading something into nothing, taking it the wrong way, being confused, being mistaken along with all and more of the other manipulations mentioned above.
What about providing some independent evidence to us? What if you have evidence from our phone, in a document, an e-mail, a sound recording or a video? You decide to show us a video of what we did that afternoon in the hope and expectation that we must surely accept what we have done. It is there, recorded and on the screen. How will we respond?
Once again, depending on the way you have conveyed this to us, you will have either provided fuel (telling us there is more) and you have challenged us or you have criticised us. Our perspective means we need fuel, we want fuel, we need to assert our superiority, we need to maintain control, we need to keep you submissive and manipulated. Astonishing as it may seem, you can expect reactions akin to those above and these as well: –
- We will tell you the footage has been edited to make us look bad;
- We will say that the footage does not show the whole picture and is taken out of context;
- We will say it is somebody who looks like us but isn’t us;
- We will try to delete the footage;
- We will damage the device on which the footage is held;
- We will produce some different evidence which points to some imagined transgression on your part and focus on that instead;
If you have independent evidence of any kind, its production engenders the same response as detailed above because we look at it from an entirely different perspective. You can expect the independent evidence to be attacked, tampered with or destroyed along with the plethora of manipulations that have been described above.
You may think that showing our kind definitive proof of our wrongdoing would cause us to hold our hands up and admit we have been caught. It does not work with our kind in that way. We have been designed to see things in a different way so that we will respond to protect ourselves from your criticism (or to draw more fuel and head off your challenge) and that is what we see and hear – criticism and/or fuel. These devices and manipulations occur because: –
- We are never at fault;
- We are superior to you;
- We must be in control;
- We are omnipotent;
- You are inferior;
- We are entitled to do what we want;
- We need fuel; and
- We hate criticism.
Save your independent evidence for the third parties. Save your breath and your sanity.
The only thing you will ever prove is how predictable, as narcissists, we are, when are confronted with proof.
37 thoughts on “Dealing With The Evidence”
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Have heard all of these from the narc ex’s. One destroyed a tape and a voice recorder with a hammer. The last narc was gaslight city and projection.They all seem to pick their poison. It’s like Hg was a fly on the wall writing this.
A photo saved on his iPad was with former ex at a local restaurant.
I can’t recall what shocked me more…the fact that they posed for it or he was wearing the wedding band & shirt I bought him….
Whoa this is enlightening. I’ve gone through hell for something I did a year ago but seriously think I’ve been hoodwinked the more and more I read. A good friend of mine kept messaging my narc at all times of the day/night whilst we were away on holiday so I blew up and accused him of an affair, it all seemed obvious by adding two and two from his recent behaviour. He howled in protest and totally lost it with me – and said that she was suicidal and he was the only person she trusted. He was saving her life and I was accusing him of infidelity.
I felt total shame for what I did but he has never let me forget it, saying it’s caused a rift in his friendship with my friend and she now hates me as she knows I know her secret too. She never visits us any more. Things have never been the same since and he is constantly ‘punishing’ me (his words) by going off for days on his own, joining clubs on his own, and seeing our friends on his own. He says he can’t trust me any more and that I’ve shown my true colours. He says he’s told all our friends what a terrible thing I did and they all hate me for it too. They’ve totally sidelined me. I begged him to keep it all private, for my sake, for my friend’s sake and to let us quietly heal. I’ve been in a terrible twilight zone for months trying hard to be a better person and feeling very depressed myself. Now I’ve found this website I’m beginning to wonder about absolutely everything!
What a story Carey-Jane !!! I feel for you. I don’t know how long you have been around – but a lot of answers for you for sure on this site .
Turning the arm on us, Narcs are champions at this !!
Carey-Jane
This is very suspicious:
A good friend of mine kept messaging my narc at all times of the day/night whilst we were away on holiday
You didn’t do anything wrong and you have nothing to be ashamed about. Shame on your boyfriend and the “suicidal friend”. If you are not already out, it is time GOSO* and don’t look back.
I would NEVER message the boyfriend of one of my girlfriend’s while they were on holiday, even if I was suicidal.
*get out, stay out
Hello, Carey-Jane. I wish you the best as you pull together the pieces of the narcissistic puzzle. It’s certainly no easy task, and I’m sorry that you had to endure the pain of such a relationship.
While I’m still learning, reading here has given me remarkable insight. Yet I’m still amazed at the manner in which the narcissist lies. Mine had many different responses to being confronted, and HG just recited those words as if he were standing right there between us.
This article serves as an excellent reminder of their patterns and the bold way that they lie until they die. May you take the evidence you learn here and use it to become wiser, stronger and properly healed. Again, best wishes to you Carey-Jane.
Yup. Hoodwinked. Why would YOUR female friend be texting your boyfriend as the only person she could trust, and while you were on holiday together. Laughable in hindsight yes? He has been using this as a free pass while you packed your bags and went on a guilt trip. You dont need to be a better person-you just need to associate with better than those two liars. Keep reading and wonder no longer.
Hello Carey-Jane,
Spending time with others a provocation to get fuel from you.
“A good friend of mine kept messaging my narc at all times of the day/night whilst we were away on holiday”
I agree with K and NarcAngel that people who are suicidal will never ask a friend who is with his partner/family on holidays for help. I do not believe him. Whether she was suicidal or not, she is not your friend if she kept sending him messages throughout the day/night. Shame on both of them.
“He says he’s told all our friends what a terrible thing I did and they all hate me for it too. ”
Gaslighting. Narcissists say things like ‘nobody likes you’ or ‘everybody hates you, they told me so’. This is not true.
“He says he can’t trust me any more and that I’ve shown my true colours.”
Projection. He is the one who has shown his true colours and cannot be trusted anymore.
You do not have to become a better person. You already are a good person.
A healthy man who really loves you will never make you feel you are a hateful person, less than others or not good enough for him.
My piss was boiling after I read Carey-Jane’s comment, E.B. The gas lighting reminded me of my MMRN. Bastards! All of them.
K,
Me too. This is why I thought she must know what he is doing to her (and her “friend”). Narcissists gaslight us repeatedly and over a long period of time until it goes deeper and deeper in our –>subconscious mind<–. We cannot get rid of those negative beliefs so easily. There were things I was totally convinced they were all my fault until I read a chapter in Black Flag and I realized I had been gaslighted on a weekly basis for many many years by my narc parents. I did not know that I had experienced gaslighting in that particular area.
E.B.
When I was a kid, I thought my mom was an idiot and now I realize it was just gaslighting. I didn’t know what it was until I came here and realized the many different ways you can get gaslighted. It is insane!
Hi K,
“I thought my mom was an idiot and now I realize it was just gaslighting…”
Yes, there are many different methods of gaslighting. Female narcissists are more subtle than men. They can be really good at pretending to be stupid and not noticing when they brainwash their victims.
There are big chunks of my childhood I cannot remember at all. Abuse amnesia? I can only remember some of the things that happened to me in the last years. Reading and rereading these articles help me remember certain things I did not know they were abusive at all and haunt me until today. It is not easy for me to find new pieces of the puzzle and put them together to heal past wounds. I must also say that I did not have enough time for myself as I am having now.
Hello E.B.
Yup, female narcissists can play stupid. Reading and rereading the articles and comments really helps jog the memory and it makes you realize the extent and impact of the abuse, as well. Since I no longer occupy a significant position on anyone’s fuel matrix, I have plenty of time for myself and I do what I want, when I want, and it’s great!
E.B… excellent points.
And K, I enjoy the way you express yourself. (“My piss was boiling.”) Your honesty made me grin. But yeah… I agree with you two… and Narc Angel.
It hurts to see somebody treated in the ways in which we are all too familiar.
BurntKrispyKeen
Ha ha ha….”boils my piss” is an idiom that I picked up here, and it really summed up how I felt after reading Carey-Jane’s comment. She was treated so badly by those two twits and, I agree, it hurts to read about someone being treated that way.
Thank you, BurntKrispyKeen. I enjoy reading K’s and NarcAngel’s comments too. They make me laugh 🙂
I agree E.B… the collective sense of humor here is remarkable.
I picture K standing at the front of an auditorium at an Ivy League university. She’s wearing a cashmere blazer in a tweed pattern, eagerly overlooking her professor-type glasses which are lowered on her nose in a sexy librarian fashion.
She’s sharing her extensive knowledge on narcissism while causing the large group of college students to erupt into laughter as K describes very direct ways to “manage” the most difficult of narcs. (Which could include tips on dropping anything belonging to the narcissist into a 212 degree pot.)
And I envision Narc Angel, somewhere in the evening hours, standing strong in a quaint, yet upscale club. She’s center stage with a microphone tightly gripped in her delicate hand. She’s rolling off her belly-busting routine and the crowd can’t seem to get enough. I see Narc Angel holding her own as fellow comedians stand by the curtain to take in her skills. [I have no doubt she’d be successful at stand-up… especially if she sports her sexy Catwoman attire and purrs (or hisses) in-between jokes.]
So yeah, E.B…. those two are a hoot!
But I’m no dummy here. I’m not going to end this post without acknowledging that Mr. HG Tudor is The Grand Marshal of the Good Humor Parade.
He’s Wicked! [I mean that connotation in slang… you remember HG, SoCal style. (Even though that one might be more New England…?) And, perhaps there is a bit of denotation going on as well. 😄]
Seriously, your sense of humor is wicked good…. one of the main reasons I enjoy reading here.
Ha ha – excellent, BurntKrispyKeen!! 🙂 I almost choked on an olive while reading your comment! 🙂 I would love to see you, K and NA giving lectures… As for HG, no matter how ‘wicked’ he may be, he is wicked good! 🙂
Ha ha ha…you guys are a riot, BurntKrispyKeen and E.B.!
As Tudorites, we could all deliver sublime lectures peppered with keen erudition to the ivy league scholars and then go to the comedy club afterwards to see Narc Angel roll out her hilarious routine: Narcs, Normals and Empaths, while we make a toast to HG and No Contact.
My lecture will be titled: Maniacal management and passive aggressive techniques on dealing with the most difficult narcissist in your.
Ha! That was good K… so see; it’s true! I just KNEW that I had correctly received the vision of your “calling.” (Sincerely K… you would make a fine narc-management professor.)
And yeah… I would very much enjoy sitting in the club with you ladies, bourbon in hand, toasting HG as we chuckle to the comedy routine you suggested. (I seriously have no doubt that Narc Angel could pull it off!)
But I’m not so sure about my destiny E.B….? When I said, “I’m no dummy.” I meant that I wasn’t about to overlook acknowledging the Greater’s great sense of humor. (I have learned a thing or two from him about how to not elicit fury. 😮) But ME getting up to lecture… I’d probably feel pretty stupid!
BUT… just think how wiser we’ve all become. Learning While Laughing… that’s the best kind of therapy there is!
BurntKrispyKeen & E.B.
I couldn’t agree more with this statement: Learning While Laughing… that’s the best kind of therapy there is!
When I gave him date by date the following:
Lie number 1 : evidence picture number 1
Lie number 2 : evidence picture number 2
etc etc.
I was very calm. No emotions.
He responded: You are very bright, that is why I like you, but, I leave a lot of information floating around that makes it easy for you. Then, white lies are better than hurting you. I don’t want to hurt you , you are so nice.
Part of me felt good, I needed to be right that day. I needed to validate that I was not crazy, that my intuition was good. He partially gave me the point that day.
The day he gave me the most points was when he was pursuing me to know how the hell was I able to find so much information , so accurately , so timely. He thought I was hooked to his phone ( in all honesty I am very good at searching) I am not hooked to his phone.
I told him a few timbits – but kept the real keys to myself.
Since then, I never confronted him again with his lies but I know he is being more careful about what he says and not says. But I know I can now trust my intuition and that I know when he lies.
The reality is that all those pictures and evidences helped me get some distance and also helped me pay more attention to this blog and HG’s help and bloggers experience as well.
The flip side is that it has hurt me a lot. Believe HG when he says that narcs do pretty much the same things and behave pretty much the same way with all the prey. The pictures I saw, were pretty much the same things as I do with my narc this is where it hurst but it heals too.
In conclusion, I would do the same. I am not sure I would need to confront him though. Knowing is enough.
Getting the few points … Not so worth it.
I
On My Journey… it sounds like you are well on your way! Good point on the confrontation… The more they know that we know, the better they get at covering their tracks. Well, the harder we have to work to discover the truth… the truth we actually already know but are often too involved to accept. 😕
May you continue on your journey and land in the sweetest spot.
Thanks to this here frankly and my therapy because I was really frantic – out of control- anxious – lost and empty. I have made some progress – I just try to love myself more and more everyday I find that is the best antidote and this site brings the knowledge which brings the ET to lower and the LT to gain strength:)
Exactly …nothing ever matters what the narc does that is wrong or harming to a relationship. It only matters if , the empath does something perceived as wrong by the narc . He should sign a contract to agreed upon mutual behavior …and any time either party is caught breaking the contract someone collects money from the rule breaker LOL What a grand time !
I did collect a pair of new shoes every time he yelled unfair insults at me .
With due respect, why do you stay with these guys? I really do not understand. R u masochists? And you continue to put out?? R u on this site to learn how to deal and reinforce an unhealthy relationship? Please, some one explain to me. Because my ex hurt me in every way possible. Moving on . . . .
So glad that you are moving on, MovingOn.
As you know, being in a tempestuous relationship can easily weaken one’s self-esteem and dampen the spirit. Yet those moments of passion or some sweet memories… those don’t always fade from the mind just because the heart is wounded.
Everyone on this site is at a different phase in his or her healing. Some have well moved past their unhealthy relationships while others are still trying.
As I’m sure you’ll agree, it is a process. Each person finds his/her own way in his/her own time. Reading here at Narcsite has helped me to “move on,” but I still struggle as this is a journey with many peaks and valleys. The issues that we (human beings) have are as complex as each interaction with a narcissist.
So while you had the fortitude to remove yourself from a hurtful situation, please understand that the ties others have might go deeper. (Children, finances, psychological trauma, attachment issues, fear… You understand.)
I have personally struggled with going No Contact. I have participated in more of a psuedo-no-contact. Yet, it’s been a year now since I’ve seen my narcissist. Despite his occasional efforts to see me along the way, I’ve managed to at least keep that much distance. Others are in a far better place than I – Some are just beginning. So please share your approach, tactics and mindset, MovingOn. Perhaps your experiences can help those who aren’t able to progress so easily.
Best wishes as you continue to move forward…
Each their journey and each their stories and reality. As NC seems to be the best antidote the road to it differs for everyone.
If it would be that easy this site would not have lived that long and we would be all somewhere else doing something else and certainly wouldn’t be here.
So … I am not sure HG … my wild guess would be that 50% of people here are in NC for s good while now ? 70 % have been NC or tried NC at some point but are still in contact now ?
That is only for being here 2 months so that is short sample .
NC is not easy and you need to prepare yourself and when you fail you réalisé how much preparation you need in reality.
In all this you learn a lot about the Narc it so much about yourself .
So why did YOU stay with the man you call “my ex” long enough for him to hurt you? I think you will find your answer in your reply.
I was married to him . I have two teenagers now . He wasn’t as bad when he was in his 30s. He isn’t a greater narc. I had no clue as to what a narc even was back then. 20 years later and after I left , escaped , whatever…. and I divorced him . Manly because I had young ones and I couldn’t grab them and walk away to a nice park or resteraunt , or go on a scenic drive …..because they were getting bigger. I shielded then from his temper and I demanded I do all the disabling. He listened to me back then ….maybe because he was younger and had other girls to chase ….Lots more but too long to text.
I replied it’s on here . I can give lots of advice to how I learned to cope . But I am not with a greater narc . He is a lesser / mid range and I use to think He was craving alcohol. This was long ago 17 years ago . I had no idea what a narc was . I use to think he was bipolar also. I am a patient fixer / helper / co dependant ……….human being .
No if you are being abused get out . Leave . Call the police. Learn self defense , learn to shoot , whatever .
What is it, Mollyb5, about the lure of a new pair of shoes!? 👠 It’s hard to explain, isn’t it? Yet I completely understand how a little shoe therapy can brighten a dreary day, especially when a matching handbag is involved!
The problem with my shoe obsession… I bought them myself. (He did give me a cute pair, once… a week after my birthday, but I think that was more as an effort to distract me since I was becoming suspicious of his philandering ways.) So other than the generous Golden Period, I was the one buying gifts for him. (((Head Shake))) 👀 eye roll… ugh!
Your proposed contract is a great idea! You definitely played it smarter than I did! 😯
Burntkrispykeen
We love shoes and bags because they always fit.
So true NarcAngel…
Slipping into a pair of heels is more comfortable than trying on jeans, and modeling a clutch purse in front of those brightly lit dressing room mirrors is certainly more enjoyable than what I have to clutch while swimsuit shopping!
I am not dealing with a greater narc. I am one who got pregnant right away. I was a couple years out of my first marriage to a very nice guy from high school . My first . So I am or was naive at the time. He is and was then an alcoholic , like my mother .
It sounds like you’ve been through some difficult experiences, Mollyb5, but it also sounds like you have been able to ascertain what you were up against and have made strides in escaping and managing the situation.
Best wishes as you continue to heal.