The Igniters of Fury – No. 15
27 thoughts on “The Igniters of Fury – No. 15”
Vent Your Spleen! (Please see the Rules in Formal Info)
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HG- what about when the empath compliment someone who is useful to the narcissist like their boss or the narc’s narc parent that they don’t know is a narc? is there ever any times when complimenting others doesn’t ignite fury or does it always do that?
1. If we do not know you have done it, then clearly it would not ignite fury.
2. During the seduction phase it is unlikely to cause the ignition of fury.
3. During devaluation it will cause the ignition of fury, BUT certain narcissist’s may be able to keep it under control (for different reasons) so the ignition does not appear visible.
Narcoholic was brutal. Knew it upset me that he never complimented me, but would compliment other women on their appearance right in front of me, then if I gave a reaction, chastise me for being jealous/insecure.
If I paid attention to other men ( or even other women) rather than him, he’d get angry. If he perceived another man was enjoying my company he’d put me down (“jokingly”) to him. Or storm off, leave me there.
Hi WiserNow,
I read your comments and had one thought.
Psychologists coined this line of thinking: every human action has an underlying positive (!) intention.
The example I heard to illustrate it was about a cannibal, who’d eat his victims not due to hunger but due to the fact they were lonely and wanted to feel close to somebody. Unbelievable, right?
I did struggle with accepting it for a week with it, between my therapy sessions where I went to find help for understanding narcissists better. No luck, HG was heaven-sent to me for that, apparently. (Sorry, if this seems too far-fetched in your perspective, dear HG!)
To sum up my comment, We all have our own gains in mind more than anybody else’s, empathic or not.
Hello SN,
Thank you for your comment.
I can see what you mean, and yes, I understand that everyone, no matter whether they are narcissistic, empathic or normal, ‘has their own gain in mind.
Everyone does what, in their own mind, is either enjoyable, satisfying or what “they” feel is beneficial to their survival.
I get that and I’m not disputing it.
I realise it’s all about perspective.
Even though I understand the different perspectives, if you consider the effects of the behaviours of highly-narcissistic people, they are generally detrimental to others. Also, if you look at the effects of the behaviours of highly-empathic people, they are generally detrimental to themselves.
When I reflect further about my comments here, I can see that this blog is a special case though.
HG is helping many people with this blog. He is creating greater awareness and actively assisting people to remove themselves from abusive situations. That is very unusual for a narcissist. By doing that, HG is actually behaving more like an empathic person would.
Also, I now see that:
1. It’s pointless trying to discuss ‘reason’ with a narcissist. They will never concede that they are at fault. They will never allow anyone else’s point of view to stand, let alone be superior to their own. God knows, I should really, truly know this by now and stop beating my head against a brick wall!! 😉
2. What HG is doing here with this blog is helping many people. This blog is actually for the greater good and I fully acknowledge that.
In that sense, it is not the place to argue with HG about how destructive narcissism is. Instead, I will continue to keep reading and learning and let HG do his thing unhampered.
To HG,
Forgive me, oh Great one! I now see the error of my ways. I am attempting to strum the chords of your conscience and empathy. However, those frayed and tattered threads floated down into the void long ago and are now well-trampled into the dirt by the Creature.
Please HG, feel free to continue to enlighten me. I sincerely do appreciate it 😊
I couldn’t agree with you more, WiserNow. Word for word. And I also intend to learn from our wonderful HG as much as he chooses to let me!
Hi Narc Affair,
By the way, I can’t reply to your last comment directly because there’s no reply button, so I’m sorry if the thread is all over the place.
I think you’re right. My Mum treats both my sister and I in whatever way serves her purpose. There is no underlying regard for our feelings at all. It’s very different from how you would expect a normal mother to be.
It’s a difficult concept to grasp and accept until you fully come to terms with it. I think my emotional thinking still overtakes my logic sometimes.
The rules of this game keep shifting and you need to be very watchful of how those rules will affect you. I can’t go fully no contact because it’s not really an option. So, it’s a case of maintaining resistance and strong boundaries.
In my next life, I better be born further along the bloody spectrum somewhere in the middle!🙄 That’s all I can say 😊
Hi wisernow…i havent gone fully no contact with my mother either but limit my exposure to her greatly. I miss the closeness at times but with that came her control of me and the toxicity. She comes by maybe twice a month to visit her grandkids.
There is no ‘reply’ button at the end of your response to my comment HG, so I am replying here.
You say there is no ‘grand arbiter’ to say who is right and who is wrong.
I say there doesn’t have to be a grand arbiter. It’s plain to see.
If we were to remove the labels of right and wrong, and consider objectively the overall results of your kind’s behaviour in an unbiased way, it is clear that your kind’s behaviour leads to harm and is ultimately destructive, both at individual and social levels. Otherwise, you wouldn’t need to hide behind a facade and use trickery.
If I change the word “wrong” and use the word destructive, it removes the moral judgement aspect away. However, it still illustrates my point and leads to the same conclusion.
Psychological abuse of children is destructive.. Accepting medals and accolades for winning while being a hidden drug cheat is destructive (Lance Armstrong). Sexual harassment and intimidation of women while simultaneously enriching yourself from their work and talents because you’re in a position of convoluted power is destructive (Harvey Weinstein).
I could go on and on. You can take the word “wrong” away if you like. The results of your kind’s behaviour speak for themselves.
You are missing the point. It is the perspective.
Those who failed to win medals consider Lance Armstrong’s behaviour destructive? I’m not sure they would call it that. But let us assume they do. Lance Armstrong does not regard it as destructive for him.
The man who robs a shop because he is starving – that is destructive behaviour for the shopkeeper, but the thief gets to eat and doesn’t starve so it is not destructive from his perspective.
The dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed many innocent people but also hastened the Japanese surrender in WW2. Was this destructive? Yes, but who for? Not the allies.
Just because YOU deem it to be destructive does not mean it is that way for all involved in the dynamic.
It can be best summed up thus – one man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist – it is truly about perspective.
I can see both perspectives and I can also understand the points you are making.
If you widen your perspective to add the element of time, the benefits and costs of both kinds of behaviours become clearer.
Lance Armstrong may have enjoyed the benefits of winning for a length of time, however, he is now known worldwide as a cheat and a liar. He probably doesn’t have shame or remorse, however, he no longer has a facade and his reputation is probably vastly different to what he wanted it to be. He has been stripped of his medals and I don’t think many people would pay to listen to him give a speech on “how to win” or use him to endorse any products. As an athlete and a man, the course of time has made him a failure. The other athletes who didn’t win medals may or may not have been of your kind. I am not focused on them.
I can see the perspectives you speak of. Over the course of time though, the truth and complexity of each situation becomes known and reveals the effects and sustainability of each behaviour.
I understand what Wiser Now is saying because I too believe there is a Higher Moral Structure.
I just watched a doc. on Leopold and Loeb. They murdered a 14 yr old boy in cold blood and poured acid on his body just to see what it was like.
You can say by their perspective it wasn’t evil because they didn’t see it that way but the laws are in place for rationalizations as that and that’s why you have a judge and jury objectively decide their fate.
The starving man who robs a store is committing a crime, but that is why situations as his are taken into account when deciding someone’s legal punishment.
During the Soviet Era, people often were sent to a Gulag for a decade or more for stealing a potato. Seems a bit harsh. Stalin might not think so, but Stalin was a psychopath. It is his perspective but it’s also a disordered perspective.
His father beat him so much that he ended up with a limp for the rest of his life. Does that justify his actions? Still, history has decided how he ranks and it isn’t favorable.
I’m sure Lance Armstrong has said, ‘Oh snap!’ a few times considering he has been banned from his sport and labelled a fraud.
This is where empathy comes in. Just because something benefits you doesn’t mean that it is good.
HG,
I really thought quite a lot before formulating this comment so I could present it as clear as possible.
I understand the two different perspectives so my analysis goes further than that.
Without adding moral values , not being judgemental and hopefully not offensive my analysis goes to what happens to the narcissist when the narcissist perspective goes into force?
All what I have learned here has made me wonder if it is the NPD itself that somehow blinds the narcissist into not seeing the whole scenario making him/her just “see” isolated events? There is an action-consequence dynamic that is created by his/her own ( abusive /destructive behaviours) that bounces back to the narcissist.
Yes, it is a matter of perspectives but the dynamic does not stop there.There is a chain reaction triggered by his own ( abusive-destructive )behaviours that destroys part of “himself” as well( not just the “victim”).
The narcissit’s abusive /destructive behaviour is ultimately destructive for him/her since by destroying his/her own sources of supply he/she is destroying part of “himself”: part of his/her fuel matrix. Regardless of his/her ability to acquire new sources of supply ( which eventually will be destroyed again) the narcissist is trapped in a never ending cycle of building up and destroying his /her own fuel matrix.
In the examples given:
Robber: he might have satisfied his hunger then and perhaps he was not caught but eventually he will be caught and put in jail if he was not killed during the robbery.His destructive actions have a negative destructive consequence that bounces back to him.
The example of the Hiroshima bomb, is quite complicated.It put end to the war ( reducing i.ex.the collateral damage of human lives to the allies) but applying a very simplistic approach : the drop of the bomb had other detrimental effects for the allies ( economy,politics). Not being as detrimental as the continuation of War but indeed the destructive action had some detrimental effects “bouncing ” back at them.
Does the compartmentalisation of the narcissistic perspective not allow the narcissist(s) to see the whole picture of the destructive effects of their destructive (abusive) behaviour for themselves as well?
“Better is only better for some ”
Handmaidens Tale
I think I quoted it right. You get the gist
Im careful how i compliment others around my narc. At the same time if i want to compliment someone i will do so in a nontriangulation way. Im not going to tiptoe around bc his ego cant take it. I try to be sensitive but to not ever compliment another is unatural. Hes complimented others but quite often he uses it to triangulate.
God knows i build him up 24/7. Im constantly complimenting him. So i think his ego can take a bit of reality when i compliment another and if it cant bring on the devaluation bc it wouldve reared its ugly head anyways.
I understand you Narc Affair. I’ve been in the same position many times, where I’ve felt the need to measure every word. I feel like I need to be two steps ahead in my mind trying to predict how an innocent comment will be taken so that it doesn’t cause a bad reaction or start a stupid and unnecessary argument.
It’s so damn exhausting and mentally draining. And the conversations end up cold, stilted and meaningless. To actually communicate effectively, you need to have a strategy. I would really like to be spontaneous and just say what I want to say and let the chips fall where they fall.
By giving someone else a genuine compliment, you are NOT devaluing anyone else, especially not someone who you are committed to or who you have shown countless times that you are loving or supportive.
In recent visits with my Mum, she has turned the tables a bit and is now sometimes making me the golden child where I was always the scapegoat before. Now that I’m no longer easy to manipulate, she will criticise my sister for certain things while praising my actions or opinions or whatever. She is obviously triangulating and trying to create psychological jealousies and divisions between us. It’s so clear to me now. And it’s so silly, and also very sad because she can’t see that I actually care about her and my sister and couldn’t care less about these silly, irrelevant criticisms anymore.
Narcissists create their own voids.
Hi wisernow…i bet your sister is going thru devaluation right now and thats why your mums reversed roles. Also when you set out of the equation there has to be a new scapegoat so maybe your sisters that person right now.
If you start showing boundaries oddly they respect you more. The moment you treat the narc good and cater to them they lose respect bc they dont like themselves.
Maybe your mum respects you more bc youre taking a stand and instilling boundaries.
My mother is like that. I no longer try to please her.
Narc Affair,
Ding ding we have a winner. You are exactly right. Once you start catering to the Narc regularly and they know they are treating you like shit and yet you still cater they lose any and all respect for you. The thought that goes thru their mind is “if she continues to put up with my shit, she’s not worthy of me” that is how they think.
You can not win with these people. You are damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
You are better off to preserve yoiur self respect and not cater to them because either way you will be devalued or shelved. It’s coming either way and there is no way to stop it
Hi lori…ty for your reply you put it perfectly into words! Thats just it…you treat them well and put up with their devaluing and they think one word …”weak”. They dont respect weakness. Except it isnt a weakness to want to be good to people. It is a mistake to do so if that person keeps hurting you. Thats where you have to grab self respect and detach. Ive not gone no contact fully with my mother but we are rarely around each other. When we are i keep it to idle chat snd nothing too deep and i never cater to her. Im never overly nice and accomidating. Those days are gone. Not bc i dont want to bc i do but bc i have firm boundaries when it comes to her and i will never allow her close access to my emotional side again. That part of me is dead to her.
Reactions like this immediately look very petty and childishly jealous to me. It seems so strange to me that mature, accomplished and seemingly ‘together’ people would react this way, although I’ve seen it happen many times.
HG, seeing that you are able to describe narcissistic behaviours in a very rational way, I wonder, do you ever contemplate that feeling fury over something as harmless as a compliment to someone else may be considered petty, childish, over-the-top or even beneath a Greater such as yourself?
I understand that the instinct of feeling wounded is something you can’t control, however, seeing that you in particular are so perceptive, do you have any thought at all that it may be perceived by others to be an overreaction?
Keep in mind that these igniters are applicable in different ways dependent upon school. My fury may be ignited but it is controlled and therefore nothing comes of it. A Lesser may erupt. I agree, many of them will seem petty to others, but it is all about perspective.
Thank you for your reply HG.
Your thoroughly described posts have really educated me about just how illogical this condition is. You have managed to make sense of what seems to be totally non-sensical behaviour to normal and empathic people.
Like you say, to understand the behaviour of your kind, a different perspective is needed.
Sometimes I think that the reason narcissistic behaviour seems to have taken root and permeated every facet of life, is that the rest of us seem ‘forced’ to accept your ways and adapt to them because your kind just will not or cannot change. So, everyone else bends to your kind’s ridiculous will.
Everyone else needs to adapt, understand, GOSO, tiptoe on eggshells and change their behaviour because your kind WILL NOT change. So, normal, healthy people change, while you stay the same. Over time it becomes easier for others to adapt to your warped ways than it is to challenge you head on.
This is so WRONG because your kind is wrong. Your behaviours are wrong.
Lying is wrong. Psychological abuse is wrong. Grown adults being jealous of others all the time is wrong.
I SO wish you could see OUR perspective and really understand it for a change.
No, you label it as wrong WN, but there is no grand arbiter to say that I am right and you are wrong or the other way around. It is purely perspective.
I do see your perspective, I have listened to it and observed it in action, that is why I am able to write as I do.
Some things may come of it, actually.
Well no, they won’t because the fury has been controlled, as I wrote.
Big no no. Never do this no no. It is grounds to start the devaluation.
😄