How We Get Away With It (And What You Can Do About it)
There are many things that we do (and do not do) which cause you to feel upset, angry, fearful and frustrated. One of those things that I regularly witness is the fact that we appear to always get away with it. We come up trumps. We emerge smelling of roses. We ride off into the sunset without seemingly a care about anything. You meanwhile are left to pick up the pieces, put your life back together and wonder what the hell has just happened. We seem to be able to get away with doling out reprehensible behaviour, often with no comeback or repercussion. We leave you in the dust and swan off with a new prospect, full of smiles and Facebook picture postings of us and our new appliance. We are still liked and lauded by our friends, even some of your friends may still want to have something to do with us. Our family are unfazed by what has gone on. Those that we work with listen to what has happened but do not alter in the way that they behave with us. We go on with our lives as if nothing has happened. You appear to be forgotten about. Certainly the way we have treated you is regarded as if it never ever happened. We always seem to be heading onwards and upwards. We always appear to be winning. We are getting away with it. Why is this?
- It is the way we have been created. We are not designed for musing on the past, ruminating on what has gone before and reflecting on the things that have happened. Old fuel is no good to us. We need to keep moving forward in order to locate and absorb our next fix of fuel. This programming results in us always moving forward and in so doing we do not cast a backwards glance.
- We are untroubled by remorse, guilt or conscience. We do not care and therefore unlike somebody normal who would show upset, embarrassment and sorrow at our such behaviour we do not. We are able to shrug it off and continue irrespective.
- We are never accountable. Everything is your fault. Having such a mind set makes it far easier for us to move on with what we need to do. Indeed, not only are we not burdened by the concept of having some form of culpability for what has happened, but we are helped by the notion that you brought it about, you were the traitor and therefore we are entirely justified in doing what we do. We have a right to move on and find someone else.
- We are entitled. Our huge sense of entitlement justifies to us that whatever we do is correct. This further adds to our sense of always being right and therefore that even if we felt remorse, we have no need to do so. It is a double whammy.
- Our charm and seduction means that it is easy for us to find somebody else who will fall for us. We rarely find ourselves cut adrift in a howling wilderness, devoid of emotional attention and lacking fuel. We ensure we have a replacement source of primary fuel lined up. We focus on this new person and channel all our effort to embedding them as our primary source of fuel.
- The façade. We create a façade from our family, friends and colleagues and this is very hard for you to shatter, especially in the state that you are when you have been discarded. This façade gives the impression that everybody accepts and agrees with us and not you.
- Deletion. Following your discard, we effectively forget about you unless you keep appearing in our spheres of influence. This ability to jettison you so dramatically enables us to keep moving forward. We to all intents and purposes forget about you.
- We are experts at fakery and conning. This means that we often manage to worm our way out of situations involving the authorities and law enforcement. We point the finger of blame at you instead, we appear calm and reasonable (contrasting with how you present yourselves as) and so few people know what we are and even fewer understand it, that we are able to wriggle away from such difficult situations with ease.
- We are brilliant at portraying that our life is marvellous. We are the masters at presentation, after all, did we not weave an incredible illusion that conned you when we first seduced you? We give the appearance of being incredibly happy with our new partner, that our life is going well, that we are loved and adored by so many. This positioning and projection of our apparent circumstances to the world creates the appearance that we continue to get away with it.
- There are rarely repercussions. Our victims are not in a position to do anything to achieve revenge over us. This is for several reasons. First of all, most of our victims have no idea what they have just encountered and therefore are unable to challenge something they do not know about or understand. Secondly, our victims find themselves exhausted and worn down, they just do not have the resources to fight back. Thirdly, as a consequence of the way we manipulate you, you are left still loving us and wanting us and therefore your thoughts are aimed at winning us back and not at securing some kind of retribution or revenge.
Thus the totality of these characteristics and situations combines to give the impression that we are always winning and thus that we are always getting away with it. But are we? How can you deal with this apparent state of affairs which only serves to upset you, frustrate you and anger you? Turning to each of the above points in turn.
- Understand this is the way that we are. There is nothing you can do about it and since this is the way we are; it is not your fault. We have to do this. You do not. Who is the winner now?
- The fact we have no conscience or sense of remorse is just how we are. Again you cannot affect that. Do not waste your time and energy appealing to something that is not there.
- We regard ourselves as unaccountable. That is our outlook. Does that mean that we are right about that? From your perspective we are not. You ought to content yourself with your perspective. Do not think that you can do anything to change our perspective. Leave us to it and maintain your own perspective and stand by it.
- Our sense of entitlement is based on our perspective once again. You do not have to accept that.
- The fact that we entrap someone else should come as no surprise to you. Remind yourself that the basis we ensnared you is exactly the basis on which they have been ensnared. We have not “won” the heart of that person fairly. We have done so through deceit. We have cheated in order to create the appearance of winning.
- Those who form the façade have been subjected to our charm and lies for a significant period of time, on the whole. You are unlikely to be able to change their views and certainly not if you appear frazzled and hysterical. Why do you need those people to know the truth? You do not. Perhaps in time you will be able to set it out for them and let them reach their own conclusion but if they remain ensconced in our illusion that is a matter for them and is not your concern. You got out.
- The deletion may feel harsh. Again it is our methodology and there is no need to trouble yourself with it. Instead, you ought to be focused on deleting us from your life.
- Bide your time, acquire the evidence and present it when the dust has settled. We took you by surprise when we seduced you, we came out of nowhere. If you have a desire to see us held to account by the powers that be, wait and present the best evidence you have in a rational fashion and leave the rest to the relevant authority. If it works, you can celebrate. If we wriggle out of responsibility do not be dismayed, just regard it as further confirmation of just how easy it is for people to be conned by our kind and be thankful you now know about it and you are moving on.
- You have finally understood that we dragged you into an illusion. All that we are doing is maintaining that illusion to the rest of the world. It is not your role to keep applying a pin to burst that illusion. Other people must work it out for themselves. Remember that what we are showing the world is just more of the illusion and you know now the truth.
- It is not your position to exact retribution at this stage. You must look to yourself and to your own defences. If revenge is to be applied, it must come later and in accordance with the methodology which works which I have set out elsewhere otherwise it will fail. You may draw greater satisfaction from progressing your own life, rather than dwelling on “getting even” because exhibiting your contentment without us, when we do eventually consider you and notice, irritates us considerably. Even worse is when you ignore us.
It is evident that we do move on without concerns and therefore give the appearance of always winning and always getting away with it.
The key for you to remember is this.
It is an appearance.
163 thoughts on “How We Get Away With It (And What You Can Do About it)”
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This whole perspective convo brought me back to a moment in therapy about 5 years ago. The Therapust is talking with me and we are having what I think is pleasant conversation as we are taking I start noticing things around the room. She stops talking suddenly “lori what’s going on?” Me: huh? You are dissociating and I’m like wtf? No im not i just got distracted. Her: Lori I have observed this several times and you are uncomfortable” I start thinking from my perspective I’m just looking around the room lady. geez does everything I do have some deeper meaning? Lol but clearly it did as she had observed it many times this was just the first time she said something
From my perspective I was just looking at the decor from her perspective I was dissociating two very different perspectives lol
Really excellent post, HG. This in particular:
“10. It is not your position to exact retribution at this stage. You must look to yourself and to your own defences. If revenge is to be applied, it must come later and in accordance with the methodology which works which I have set out elsewhere otherwise it will fail. You may draw greater satisfaction from progressing your own life, rather than dwelling on “getting even” because exhibiting your contentment without us, when we do eventually consider you and notice, irritates us considerably. Even worse is when you ignore us.”
Ignoring the narcissist ex-affair partner made and still makes her crazy, as evidenced by her still asking mutual friends after two years “Is he REALLY happy?” and other down-low nonsense like creating a new Facebook account and blocking me but not my husband. These things genuinely make me laugh. I have no compassion for her due to the many ways she tried to destroy my marriage after the affair ended. She certainly feels she was justified in every action, as narcissists do.
I have no doubt that seeing me with my husband is far more irritating to her than seeing her is to me. I won and she knows it OR she refuses to acknowledge it, and the fact that we’re still together and he doesn’t contact her is just galling to someone with a narcissistic perspective. Whatever, my revenge so far is to simply be myself and assert my position within our mutual social circle. I sometimes wonder why she still comes around because she hasn’t figured out how to fix her face when she looks at me. I do think that her dysfunction is what drives her to keep coming back, despite a lack of attention from the object of her affection. I also think it’s possible that she believes that one day he’ll come back to her, which flies in the face of reality but is also probably totally reasonable from her perspective.
Thank you.
MOh this word “perspective” tickles me. A nice word for spin and we all know what spin is. It’s trying to make sonething shitty not shitty.
Nope it’s all still shitty Mr. Narc. It sucks to not be able to attach to give or receive love and to constantly monitor fuel levels knowing that if you can’t secure it, you cease to exist. There is no amount of perspective or I mean “spin” that makes that a winning scenario
You have to distinguish between a situation where a person can see two perspective but knowingly adopts one for a particular purpose and thus that may be regarded as spin and a situation where a person can only see one perspective only and just because it differs from yours does not mean it is spin. You have your perspective, the narcissist has a perspective, why must the narcissist’s perspective be spin? Yours could just as readily be seen as spin by the narcissist. Why do you think narcissists level the accusation of you being the manipulative one?
Hahaha I knew this was the comment I would get.
HG
Living a life completely dependent on another sustaining your existence and saying its great or fine or good is ridiculous. There is no way that could be true. Now, I will say this you may have adopted to some maladaptive coping mechanisms to make this ok for you. I get that, but there is no way this can be spun as good. The coping mechanisms are in place to make the shitty seem good. It’s still spin or as you say “perspective”
No Narc is ever going to have a negative perspective or “spin” the Narcissism doesn’t allow it so I don’t expect you to agree with me.
Being dependent on outside validation is not grand, I know this because I’m your fellow Codependent but I do not have as deep a need as a narc does. I do not cease to exist without validation. I just may seem depressed but I don’t have the feeling of “the creature”
With that said, I love reading you stuff and I think you are witty guy.
Define “good” – as ever, it is a matter of perspective. You assume your perspective is the good one and I understand that, but there is no grand arbiter who decrees that it is good.
Lori
What makes one perspective right and another wrong?
Is it society? The individual?
Who dictates right from wrong?
Is it religion? Is it empathy?
Is it because at one time certain behaviors meant certain death to tribes or groups of people, because we needed each other to survive,
I actually believe it is the last one, certain behaviors meant death. People do not depend so much as a group to survive, now. One can on an individual basis.
In reality, Im probably the most similar to you. It’s the same wound only yours is deeper. I took one avenue to cope you took another. I took the path of fixing and you took the path of destroying. You seek supply. I seek validation. We both seek from outside the self. It’s just my need is not as great as yours.
But is it great ? No. Do I suffer every day ? No but I do have behavior that has obviously caused me some problems. It’s not great. It would be in my best interest to solve the dysfunction and I have improved from where I was 10 years ago unaware of my condition but I wouldn’t say I’m cured
HG,
While in theory that may sound good, it’s not entirely true. If it it were, we would have lawless society whereby everyone could have their own “perspective” there are just facts in this life like the sun being the sun the moon being the moon. It’s been widely studied that your perspective is a maladaptive coping mechanism born from childhood trauma. Because it’s comfortable to you and that’s your perspective doesn’t make it any less dysfunctional. You convince yourself that this is normal for you and ok for you because your Narcissism cannot allow a change eventhough you cognitively and intellectually know it’s not normal.
I get it probably more than most here because in a sense I’m one of you. You went one way with woundedness I went another. My codependency feels comfortable and normal to me. I think Narcs feel normal to me but because it’s comfortable and normal doesn’t erase the dysfunction. I can see the impact it’s had. Have I changed since my awareness? I would say yes, but not evenough to say I have recovered. Obviously, I haven’t or I wouldn’t be here lol.
Is it great being a Codependent ? Not really. I can cognitively see the dysfunction as you are cognitively aware of yours. Is the end of the world ? No. Am I constantly depressed ? No. It just means I don’t cope as well as I could or should
I totally see why Codepebdents and Narcs are like peanut butter and jelly
This whole perspective thing is a maladaptive coping mechanism of highly intelligent people who cognitively know there is something wrong with them, but whose emotional intelligence ceases to exist. The Narcissism will never allow them to emotionally process let alone accept this therefore “perspective” whereby you appear superior by not being burdened with a conscience is adopted. Cognitively they may know that doesn’t make them in anyway superior but quite the opposite, but they cannot emotionally accept that
No, the vast majority of narcissists do not know there is something ‘wrong with them’ because the narcissism blinds them to this. Many people who are manipulative do not actually realise that they are manipulative.
You still keep missing the point as to what perspective means.
“No, the vast majority of narcissists do not know there is something ‘wrong with them’ because the narcissism blinds them to this. Many people who are manipulative do not actually realise that they are manipulative.”
That’s precisely why I find pointless taking revenge. All I receive is making them more mean and having them saying “I was right by not trusting her!”
I am not a Superior Entity (Angel or anything), I’m human. Just like the narcissist. Only I’ve chosen differently. Because I understood there is something higher than my own mind, I prayed for an answer as to why is nex the way he is. He couldn’t do that (explain to me), not fully accepting narcissism himself. But…I’ve found you and now I know “WHY?” and how his mind works. Trying to understand someone and accepting him means true love (not romantic one) in my opinion. I find tormenting myself or him of no use.
Both of mine in later years are aware something if off with them. They don’t do anything about it but both of them have told me. Mr. Mid Ranger now knows what he is as he was in therapy. When he was in his 20 and 30s he did not know. Mr Lesser had told me multiple times” I know I’m not like other people when it comes to expressing positive emotions.” Both men are late 40s early 50s
HG this leads me to a question. It has been well documented and I think I saw in some of your writings too that Narcs tip you off in the beginning. They tell you “I’m a little damaged” “I’m no good for you” “you should stay away from me” Doesn’t this imply awareness ? Also don’t you think as they age they become aware of the pattern? Mr. Mid Ranger seemed completely aware of this in his late 40s but not at all aware in his 20 s and 30s
It is awareness of what the behaviour can cause but their is no acceptance of the consequences of that behaviour.
Lori,
One thing that I do not understand about people HAVING ( not arbitrarily adopting) different perspectives is when they turn their truths ( under their perspective) to be absolute truths where in reality they are just perspectival subjective truths. I am not denying the existence of absolute truths but this is clearly not the case.
Quoting:
“It sucks to not be able to attach to give or receive love and to constantly monitor fuel levels knowing that if you can’t secure it, you cease to exist .There is no amount of perspective or I mean “spin” that makes that a winning scenario.”
How could you possible know if what you wrote is such the case and turning it to be an absolute truth ( valid for everyone) if you ( and many others) do not function like that?
Exactly but here’s the things certain perspectives are fact. They just are. The sun is the sun. Someone may tell me that from their perspective the sun is the moon. No, it’s still the Sun.
Human beings were meant to love. That is fact. If you can’t, that is dysfunction.
Dysfunction doesn’t equal good or even normal. It’s exactly what the term is meaning not working properly. That is not perspective. That is fact You can’t perspective or spin that into being something that “works” or is good or gives you an edge. That borders on delusional
You keep missing the point. What you see, hear, smell and touch is purely the result of the way by which your brain interprets. That is why EVERYBODY has a different perspective – some may be very similar indeed, but still different.
Human beings were meant to love. That is not a fact at all.
Again, dysfunction is a matter of perspective. It may appear dysfunctional to person A but not to person B.
For example, I address situations and I am unconcerned by the consequential impact on an individual which enables me to operate in a clear fashion. I am a narcissist however and therefore labelled as dysfunctional. I see someone else who dithers, struggles to make a decision for fear of offending a person but they are not labelled as dysfunctional but rather considerate because they are concerned about the impact of that decision on someone else. I see that as dysfunctional – they cannot operate effectively.
Perspective Lori is a pair of glasses. If your glasses are programmed to see and think that we are born to be loved that will be your perspective through those glasses and this is how you will see and interpret love and life etc.
People may change glasses either they are forced or desire to or life experience , people we meet, how influençable etc at the end of the day .. a chair is not a chair – it is a chair because we labelled it that way to give us collective understanding and ease communication etc in reality it is billions of all small infinitismale particles that looks like a chair when they stick together …
Again a scientist will see the particles , an ederly something to rest , a collector an art piece etc it’s all perspective through their own chosen or learned glasses.
There are no universal thruths like love etc it is all constructs .
Very well put.
Lori,
The point you are missing is this: you WILL NOT “win” an argument with a narcissist. Lord knows you have tried. The best you can hope for is to state your position ONCE so you are heard. (And he has heard you and acknowledged such.) Tenacity is an admirable trait, but it will not serve you well in this type of situation.
There is truth on both sides and, as ever, I can see both. But you will never be “right”. That is not a satisfaction you will achieve. State your position once and bury it alive. Agree to disagree.
This has been so interesting to watch. Thank you both.
And HG, I truly believe that your kind are here to do the hard things. The things we cannot do. Our kind are here to do the soft things. The things you cannot do.
MB, you make valid points with regard to how to approach such a matter ordinarily with out kind. Here, it is not about winning the argument. In certain instances there is an inaccuracy in someone’s understanding so I address that. In other instances, it is a matter of opinion whereby I recognise that this is what a person is advancing. Accordingly, there is not an argument to “win” because it is opinion and in this forum it is unnecessary to win even an opinion argument (unlike in the world beyond this place).
I understand your point, HG. But this discussion of opinion is still very interesting to watch play out. She can’t leave her empathic traits at the door any more than you can leave your narcissistic ones.
Ah but I can straddle two worlds.
Yes Sir, you most certainly can as witnessed by everybody familiar with your work. You are special and extremely rare, if not The Only One.
I want to add that the traits are SIGNIFICANTLY muted, but not invisible. Nor should they be.
Lori,
Yes, indeed fascinating topic.
With all due respect and apologising if I am not so polite as in my first answer,
I would really suggest you to make some research on the topic before mixing up subjective truths with objective truths.
It is like mixing up apples with oranges.
Quoting and answering:
You wrote :“Exactly but here’s the things certain perspectives are fact. They just are. The sun is the sun. Someone may tell me that from their perspective the sun is the moon. No, it’s still the Sun.”
That is an objective truth not a subjective one.
An objective truth ( the sun is the sun and the moon is the moon or Newton’sLaw of gravity ) is independent of subject.
“Objectivity:-
This falls under the scientific analysis to identify an object, measure, quantify or qualify for various parameters & confirm the result, which is a reality to the given circumstances, place & time. It allows the facts to speak for themselves. Objective information is meant to be completely unbiased & can be described without any ambiguity. This is accepted without any controversy & confrontation & has concurrence with others, if the method is adapted in testing & analyzing & accepted by all. This may also involve people to work together & share knowledge & the process. It is not easy to argue or disapprove, if all norms are strictly followed”.( B.V. Baradajan)
“ ….objective truth) when its truth conditions are met without biases caused by feelings, ideas, opinions, etc., of a sentient subject.” Wikipedia.
You wrote:“Human beings were meant to love. That is fact. If you can’t, that is dysfunction”
This is a subjective truth that comes entirely from your perspective and may differ from others.
“Subjectivity:-
It falls under one’s personal impressions, feelings, views or opinions, rather than external facts. It cannot be subjected to scientific analysis or observation & there is no way to confirm affirmatively or refer to any established norms, in which case controversy is bound to exist. The truth one believes is dependent on one’s knowledge, understanding & experience. It may or may not be true & chances for hurting or disapproving other’s feelings are more & things may remain controversial. It can consist statement of judgment, assumption, belief, suspicion or rumor.”( B.V. Baradajan)
So now after reading what I wrote I ask you:
How can you prove with facts that human beings were meant to love?
And further more it is “called” a dysfunction because it is outside what the existing norm expects it to be.
I could continue writing eternally about this fascinating topic but I better stop here summarising my main thoughts:
1. There are subjective ( perspectival ) truths and objective truths.
2. What is important to focus on is that ultimately if the actions of someone ( acting from their standpoint) affect you negatively , what is the point of criticising or trying to impose your point of view to them? To feed your ego by saying I win and you lose?
For me the solution is quite simple: if you are affected negatively by someone the best battle is the one not taken and just walking away. You do not have to engage with those who affect you negatively, those who transgress your personal boundaries: just go way.
3. It is just precisely this idea /belief that human beings were meant to love
one that makes you most vulnerable to a narcissist.
Something to reflect about?
And with this: I rest my case.
Impressive. (Just so everybody knows – I sent this to SX to write!)
Ha,ha,HG.
Of course you did.We both know that but shhh….it is a secret between us. Thank you.
Very impressive, I took notes and thanks for the laugh, HG.
HG
I am labeled a Codependent and yes in certain aspects I’m dysfunctional that is true and factual.
Now I could look at from a superiority perspective in that my codependency allows me to control others and achieve certain goals. I could adopt that perspective all day long but every mental healthy professional would correct me.
But I love this conversation, to me it highlights a what a conversation between a Narc and a Non intimate Codependent looks like
To an extent it does but not extensively. It is an interesting discussion nevertheless and thank you for sharing your views.
Yes this was great! From my “perspective” Codepebdents are Narcs with feelings lol
Codependents also come in different forms as Narcs do. I think most see Codependents as weak dependent imfividuals who can’t make decisions and we are somewhat. We are dependent as you are, but I find more often than not that a Codependents weakness is more a facade used to gain validation
Super Xena
What are perspectival subjective truths?
Hello Lori,
I will give you a very simple example:
Objective truth/fact (matters that can be verified ):
I.ex.:
”People eat fish”.
This is an objective fact that can be verified.
Subjective perspectival
truth:
When you express opinions, preferences, values, feelings, and judgments ABOUT an
existing verifiable fact.I.ex.saying that something is right,wrong, better ,worse , good, bad etc.
Example:
“Salmon tastes better than catfish”
This is a subjective (perspectival) truth . Salmon might taste better for you but not to others.
I hope this very simple example helps.
Lori,
Here comes another example that is perhaps more clear:
Objective truth/fact:
“Mount Everest is the world’s highest mountain. (8,848 metres above sea level)
This is an objective fact that can be verified/measured ( this remains true unless a higher mountain is discovered)
Subjective perspectival truth:
“ K2( Mount Godwin-Austen or Chhogor located on the border between China and Pakistan 8,611 metres above sea level) is more beautiful than Mount Everest.”
This is entirely subject to YOUR perception( your “truth “according to your perspective) of both mountains .Under my perception K2 is more beautiful.
Our perceptions differ.
Although you and me have different subjective perceptions about these two mountains ( one being more beautiful than the other) that does not change the objective verifiable measurable fact that Mount Everest is the highest mountain in the world.
I will stop here otherwise I could continue with many many more examples . I hope you get a better picture now.
HG
But there is a grand decider it’s called fact. If I say the moon looks like the sun to me therefore it is and call it my perspective that doesn’t make the moon the sun
Humans were meant to connect abs love if you are able to do that we call it dysfunction. When something is not operating as it should that’s rarely a good thing.
I’m not suggesting you spend your life wallowing in self pity. Not at all but you are highly intelligent and you recognize something is wrong. Your Narcissism has allowed you to cope with the dysfunction of that. Your Narcissism allows you to tell yourself I’m not missing anything. My way is great because I’m not saddles by a conscience like you normals but I believe that you cognitively know it’s not true. The same way you cognitively know you are not a normal. Does that lead you to change? No. No more than it does for the Codepebdent. The only difference between the Codependent and the Narc is their ability to recover. Codepebdents have the ability and Narc nearly have no ability to heal the wounds. Narcs are really just the most severe form of Codependent. This is why they are drawn together. It’s truly like meeting your other half
No. It is all about perception. You may point to the colour red and say “That’s red”. I may also point to it and say, “Yes, that is red,” but my version of red might be your version of yellow. What we see, hear, taste, touch etc is purely the interpretation provided by our brains. Just because a perception is in the minority does not mean that should it attract the label of “wrong”.
I love how you expressed this, HG. The way I think of it is that perceptions are owned by the individual, and as long as they perceive, it’s their reality — whether factually accurate, seems to me, is not important, because unless someone seeks out a different interpretation and willfully changes their perception, it IS their reality. It makes me wonder if a narcissist’s main goal for effective treatment must be their willingness to adopt another’s reality. AND – if it is even possible.
“Casting a curious gaze down on planet Earth, extra-terrestrial beings could well be forgiven for assuming that we humans are programmed in every move we make, by a palm-sized, oblong slab of glass. More perplexing that – Who on earth could convince them otherwise?”
-Alex Morritt, “Impromptu Scribe”
It’s been interesting to watch this discussion between the two of you play out. I keep waiting for that “drop the mic” moment.
Lori
There are those whos perspective is that it without religion or God a person is not whole and is missing something, and while I understand their perspective I reject it for myself as being dependent on outside validation. It does not mean that it becomes fact that my life is less than or theirs is more than just because that is their perspective. Witness the fact that even though many people embrace God or religion, that their perspectives vary greatly on who or what he is and how they should live their lives in order to be fulfilled. Accepting majority as fact can also be viewed as a dangerous perspective.
This conversation makes me smile because it’s the Narcissist and the Codepebdent dancing.
Did anyone pick up on that ?
HG got the moves!
Actually it isn’t because the usual dynamics do not apply here.
The dance of perspectives
I feel like I have been twirled and dipped 🙂
I love this page. It is a fascinating subject matter
Is there only one Lori or multiple?
Narc Angel
Religion is always perception because it’s based on faith not necessarily fact but there are other things that are scientifically or medicly fact. No amount of perspective will change.
That’s just my “perspective” lol
Lori
Haha. Try telling that to the zealots that I have encountered.
But HG, color can be measured with wavelength. 5 microlitres might be 4.9967 microlitres or 4.99874 microlitres but it is not 5 litres or 10 mililitres.
There are objective facts in the universe. This does not diminish perspective. 10 people died in Toronto on Monday because someone decided to run them over. They are dead. That is fact.
That we think it is terrible is perspective. That the guy might think he did it for a good cause is perspective. But death is cold, hard fact. Their bodies are no longer functioning.
Relationships and religion are far more nebulous and open to interpretation, but I don’t think Lori is missing your point, but merely acknowledging that facts exist. Again, this does not negate perspective existing.
Yes a colorblind person sees green as brown. But green has a wavelength that can be measured and recorded. That is fact. A dyslexic person might read the numbers backwards, but that doesn’t make what they see the fact.
Perspective only occurs with sentient beings. Facts exist irrespective of those beings and those perspectives.
Thank you Bibi. I understand the point you are advancing that there are facts and then people have a perspective on that fact.
Did ten people die? Some people may say that those people’s lives altered because they became ghosts or angels or beetles – thus they live on in some form. This of course leads to the question about debt – you state death is a cold, hard fact, but again that can be argued about. Is death when the heart stops beating or when the brain stops functioning? Even if both occur, might some argue that because energy becomes another form of energy that person ‘lives on’ in some way?
Take for example ghosts. I have not seen one. People say they have. What if that person and I were stood side by side and I saw nothing in the castle corridor but they say (and for the sake of discussion one accepts that their belief is genuine, they are not making it up and they can actually see a white form walking along the corridor) they can see a ghost, we are looking at the corridor from our own perspective, yet I say there is no ghost and he says there is. Which is the fact?
What about a schizophrenic? This person actually hears voices and may do so “outside” of their head. The experience is real as if I were in the room talking to them. Yet they hear this voice and they are the only person in the room. If I am with them and say nothing, they hear a voice, I do not. Which is the fact? Is the differing perception a fact in itself and thus we both have our own fact? This is in essence the point I am making – the perception to the narcissist is a fact, the perception to the empath is a fact. Just because a majority perceive in a similar way to a minority, does that mean their perception is somehow of greater validity and is “right”? I don’t propose to extend this further as the observations have been articulated. The important point is that with regard to the issue of understanding and dealing with our kind, it is important to realise that there is a different perspective, you do not have to like it, but it is there.
HG
I love that your ghosts have to live in castles. Took me a minute to stop laughing.
Ok serious though…… I loved the exchanges about perspective on all sides. They were intelligent, respectful, humourous at times, and a learning opportunity. That is why this blog is unrivalled.
Yes, well a ghost in a supermarket doesn’t seem right really.
Illuminating discussion on both sides, but not necessarily going to result in a paradigm shift for some.
Narc Angel
This blog is great! I love reading his stuff’
I’m probably rare in that I don’t hate all Narcs quite the opposite. I find them very effective in business. They are often witty and charming and pleasant to be around as long as you are at a safe distance and isn’t that really part of the core of Narcissism that they just don’t want people to come too close? Is it pleasant to be romantically involved ? No no no it isn’t
One thing that stuck out to me in this article is that you forget about us, but that’s not entirely true. Narcs never really forget any of their victims often keeping photos and other things plus they hoover even when you have gone completely no contact. Whether it’s appearing somewhere or the fact that we randomly popped up into your head, you never really forget us and the detail with which you remember us is amazing.
And you never really forget the ones who escaped because that always suggests a loss of control and an error in your judgement which is intolerable
My father is an old school Italian who does not understand narcissism because he uses stone cold logic and reason in life. He did not understand what I was dealing with in divorce and custody from my narcopath husband. This article was the first I asked him to read anything as I never believed he could grasp the reality. He described it as “brilliantly written” and actually making sense. For the first time he has begun to understand the nature of the beast I am dealing with and logic and the fact reason need not apply.
This is an article full of such great advice. Thank you, Hg. It is validating, and somehow.. compassionate..
I particularly like this:
“You ought to content yourself with your perspective. Do not think that you can do anything to change our perspective.”
– The more I see I need to concentrate on me, on my healing, fixing me – the less responsibility I bear for how others see me.
This is the truth – simply not acknowledging something doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, or that it does not have an effect.. My perspective tells me the narc is affected by the very things he insists have no effect… he just chooses not to acknowledge them.
You are welcome.
And then as HG tells me … I don’t have to engage with him because he is a narcissist.
” It is evident that we do move on without concerns and therefore give the appearance of always winning and always getting away with it”
Perhaps it is my empathic perspective that makes this statement difficult to grasp.
When I moved on from my ex narc it was a winning for me in my OWN struggle of gaining my freedom and my power back giving me the empowerment of making a choice to do what I wanted( what was best for me) and controlling what happens to me.
Does this mean that for the narcissist even though the fact that he moves on without concern in reality every time he HAS TO move on (either because the source of fuel escapes or the fuel is not as required) is always a losing situation for him since he HAS to do it because he has no other choice or freedom to do otherwise?
So this means that the narcissist NEVER wins?
The narcissist is never free?
There never is a “winning” for the narcissist?
It all depends on how you break it down.
If you consider our need for fuel results in repeated relationships which break down, you will probably conclude this means the narcissist does not win.
Whereas we would see this a win because the repeated breakdowns do not concern us, all that matters is the seamless (or as near to that as possible) provision of fuel and so long as that is catered for, that it our win.
We would see the fact that we can just walk away and move on, whereas you are left upset and puzzled, as a win.
Once again, it is all about perspective.
I have to differ a little on this one HG.
…winning then is defined differently under your perspective but that does not mean that the narcissist has the empowerment -meaning the freedom to make their own choices because he always HAS to move on to another source of fuel.. he does not have any other choice.
You are assuming that the source that is left is frustrated and upset.. but that is not always the case..So it is not always a win as you said.
The battles for the narcissist are always related to others and they do not take the battles towards him/herself in order to get their own empowerment : meaning they are never free…
I guess your definition of empowerment is different from mine: empowerment comes from within.. not related to others.
What is your definition( under your perspective) of empowerment?
But again we have the freedom to choose whosoever we wish without concern for what has gone before. We are not born by guilt, or remorse or conscience, whereas you are. So we are freer that you. Again it is always about perspective. Every victim has been upset or angry or puzzled or mulled over matters or confused or a hundred other different matters which have restricted the victim in some way. Not us. We just move on. Yes it may be regarded as callous and heartless, but that does not concern us. Thus it is a win.
The battles towards others are wins. You state that battles towards ourselves are not wins – possibly. Again, the answer lies in how you frame the relevant question and the matter of perspective.
HG,
I am not saying that one perspective is better than the other or right or wrong. I believe you know that I am not. I am just comparing the two perspectives when they enter into force with the knowledge you have given me.
I think we are talking about two different “freedom” situations here:
FREEDOM TO CHOOSE A NEW PARTNER:
“But again we have the freedom to choose whosoever we wish without concern for what has gone before. “
That is not exclusive to the narcissist. What I mean is that an empath is also able to choose whosoever she/he wants. In both cases for the narcissist and
for the empath it is not always the case that you will get the one you choose(although the narcissist wants to believe she/he can get whoever she/he wants). But both have the ability to choose.
The difference is that the non -narcissist / empath HAS the choice of moving on WITHOUT A NEW PARTNER if he/she chooses to do so ( personally I think is the best way to go before moving to the “next” partner) whilst the narcissist does not have that choice: he /she has to have a new partner in order to move on .
I see then that the non-narcissist /empath is freer than the narcissist in this case.
We have both options( choices) : that is what I call empowerment.
FREEDOM DICTATED BY FEELINGS:
A)”….. without concern for what has gone before. We are not born by guilt, or remorse or conscience, whereas you are. So we are freer that you. “
Yes, I agree that those feelings together with the feelings of love make it more difficult for us to move on but not impossible. We can learn to control our emotional thinking as you are teaching us to do.
For the narcissist who is devoid of those feelings is EASIER to move on(without concern) . I agree with that. But that does not make the narcissist freer since he/she has other feelings that chain him /her( i.ex. the narcissistic wound, fury, jealousy etc .)
The narcissist has easier to move on because he does not attach but he/she is not freer. The narcissist is free from those feelings you mentioned but he/she is not free from other feelings . The emotional thinking is present in them as well making them vulnerable .
So no, I do not think that the narcissist is freer than us in regards feelings.
B)“Every victim has been upset or angry or puzzled or mulled over matters or confused or a hundred other different matters which have restricted the victim in some way. “
These feelings you mention may actually be present as well when terminating a romantic relationship with a non-narcissist . So those feelings are not exclusive to the relationship with a narcissist. Being the main difference how this process of termination is done: if it was a relationship with a non-narcissist the termination is “healthy” and most of the time a closure is reached as part of the process of moving on.If it was with a narcissist ,as you have taught us : there is never a closure but with the tools you are giving us here we can get our own closure and move on. That is to say we can move on.
I am not saying that either perspective is right or wrong .
All that I have learned through your books, this site ,your blogs and the comments of other bloggers has made me realise that the empowerment comes within us as opposed to the narcissist.
This leads me to believe that the non-narcissist/ empath is actually freer than the narcissist in the sense that he/she has more choices given by his/her empowerment that comes from within than the narcissist who is constructed the way he/she is( not saying that is wrong or right but just the way it is) whose “empowerment” depends only on external sources?
In fact, it is your work that has made me realise that our empowerment comes within ourselves something that opens a wider range of choices for us to be freer , being one of them the choice and the ability ( with the tools and knowledge you give here) to move on from a relationship with a narcissist .
“ Again, the answer lies in how you frame the relevant question and the matter of perspective.”
Yes, I understand what you mean:it depends on how you frame the question and from which perspective you are looking at it something that leads me to the following questions:
-Are all truths subjective for you ( truth is perspectival)?
-Or do you believe that there are objective universal ( absolute) truths?
( With these questions we are almost touching moral, ethic and theology which turns the question into an extremely broad one but we can keep those areas aside?)
HG, are you able to self-fuel at all? I know how your fuel has to come from other sources but are you totally incapable of self fuel, like not even a teeny bit?
No, I am not able to Bibi.
Interesting exchange, HG/SX.
So, with this perspective you highlight, HG, what if a narcissist is hell-bent on reclaiming a past IPPS into FR? If the narcissist can easily work out their fuel matrix quite well elsewhere, what IS the motivation to doggedly pursue, for a lengthy period of time? If fuel is fuel, pursuit has to be inefficient + wounding + tiring (I know *I’m* tired).
It can’t be (by narcissistic definition) an emotional attachment. So…Could it be an addiction? Or false hope that “this one” will fix everything? Or perhaps just rage?
Thank you Caroline.
K has answered part of your question concerning addiction.
I just thought adding:
“what IS the motivation to doggedly pursue, for a lengthy period of time? “:
I would not say there is a motivation . It is a need. Like a blood transfusion . If they have other sources of fuel they eventually will not continue for a long time with this addiction trying to repair the wound just through negative fuel.
“If fuel is fuel,
pursuit has to be inefficient “: not for them. Their system just keeps on running.
“+ wounding “: the pursuit of fuel is more like nourishing not wounding for them.
“+ tiring “: is like a system that runs by “itself”. Like a system with programmed backups. They never get tired of searching and acquiring fuel.
Thank you, SuperXena!
I guess I just need to realize this WILL end, as I firmly do my part.
I’m 100% resistant to ever being involved with him again… so it’s unnerving me that he just continues.
No. No. No. NO. This is me, and I said NO, so it’s NO! I think I just figured out what the problem is. I’m freaked out that he has no respect for the word “no.” And that’s significant for me.
Thanks, SX.
Your are welcome Caroline.
Your last phrase says a lot: “ . I’m freaked out that he has no respect for the word “no.” And that’s significant for me.”
You are absolutely right and if you analyse it a little bit closer, when they keep coming back to you when you reject them ( specially if one escapes) shows that they do not have respect for themselves, they loose their definition of boundaries all for the pursuit of fuel. When my ex-narc kept coming back I lost respect for him. They do not care how they appear to others since they are blinded by their addiction/need. Furthermore, I heard many comments from some friends like: “ He keeps coming back because he cares a lot about you”
Something that was completely wrong.
You can break down the “reasons” why they keep coming back( differing of course between each school ):
1. Their need for fuel( depending on the status of the fuel matrix)
2. Their ego ( shame of not succeeding ….again)
3. They see you as their “property “
4. They see you as a challenge
Important to remember that they do not do it because they care or love you. Harsh but true.
Some of them draw you back to resurrect the formal relationship( it was my case) with restated golden periods but believe me for each resurrected golden period the following unavoidable fall is even harder.So nothing changes.
Good luck Caroline and stay strong with your NO!
I’m not feeling that strong today, SX. I’m feeling scared. But I’m also feeling very angry, because it is not okay for me to be looking over my shoulder and jumping whenever the phone rings — and worrying about things he’s said, or what he’s thinking of doing.
He’s extremely angry that I’m not responding. I am at a stage where I realize this could get very bad, and I just have to go full-force, no matter what. I can’t let him control me like this. It’s NOT okay.
Thank you! This has really helped. I appreciate all your thoughts. I know what I need to do.
Caroline
Stick to your no. I do understand the worry.
My ex has been seen (by me) standing in the darkness of the woods, broke into not only my home but my car. I knew it was him because only two things were taken a flash drive that had information and pictures and my iPhone. He was the only one that knew where the flash drive was kept, and nothing else was taken. In my car he just moved stuff around and I could feel his presence in both. Has called me at work so on and so forth. I refuse to ever submit to him again….very rarely do I break a commitment and this one is to myself.
Stick to your no contact, hold your head up the tide comes and goes so will this.
You have this.
Thank you, tenderhearted Twilight… you have a very calming effect on me. I felt better just reading your thoughts and vote of confidence – thanks for sharing that. I’ve been feeling like I’m being held hostage by my own fears, and that can’t go on. I left him because I felt smothered/increasingly controlled, and now I’m feeling that way again.
Bottom line: He’s going to do whatever he does – I’ll deal with it as it happens. This preventative maintenance approach (AKA as crap) is not working. Time to go big (and not stay home).
Hello Caroline
Yes he will do as he sees fit to do.
When times come and it seems unbearable, flow with it. It is kinda like crossing a river, if you swim against the currant you will become exhausted before ever making it to the other side, forget about even hitting your destination that will be so far upstream, yet if you go with the currant you will make your destination and will conserve your energy.
Take care, and remember there is nothing to fear but fear itself.
So true, Twilight. Even Macron (addressing U.S. Congress) used the JFK fear quote today.
(So geez, get with the program, Caroline. :-))
Thank you, Twilight!
Hello Caroline
Ha ha I missed that….I spent 38 hours awake and looked at the TV at work, I watch very little at home, gave it about as much attention I would a rock at that moment.
SMH I really need to stay way from here when I have gone that long with out sleep. I feel like a ping pong ball and wake up feeling like I have been out drinking all night dealing with a hangover.
I feel for you Caroline I can only imagine living with this fear but I feel your inner strength through your post.
Yesterday she I lost it over my Narc and lashed at him. I was really hirt for the first time in months , not confused, not annoyed … just plainly hurt . I remembered how you wrote you felt , bad to have lost it after remaining so calm so long .
The thought of you and your story really gave me the courage to face that I fucked up but there was no run for perfection on that journey.
So here’s to you Caroline !!!
Yes, here’s to Caroline — that screw-up! LOL
I’m touched by your sweet support, OMJ. I’m so very sorry that the narcissist hurt you. They always bring on the pain in some way, at some time… and it sucks. 🙁 But remember: it’s all about the disorder – it has nothing to do with your worth. You’re wonderful! And please don’t beat up on yourself for letting him have it… gosh knows he had it coming + it’s only normal to lose it from time to time, especially dealing with a narcissist. So you were just acting like a “normal,” instead of an empath — so look at you, being normal! That’s progress! 😉
I say let the narcissist stew… and you keep empowering yourself. There’s no need for you to expect perfection of yourself in narcissistic nuttiness — plus, telling him off may be an important part of your journey, Miss Journey.:-)
XO!
Caroline,
You are good, you are fine you are strong!
Your feeling of anger is a good feeling .
Got concerned though when I read :
“ I’m feeling scared”….
“He’s extremely angry that I’m not responding. I am at a stage where I realize this could get very bad, and I just have to go full-force, no matter what. I can’t let him control me like this. ”
I assume you say full-force meaning NO CONTACT I hope.No battle is the best battle here.
I can relate to those feelings of fear ( my ex used very subtle intimidation as one of his main tools of manipulation). Sometimes it was thar fear the only thing that kept me afraid of retaliation ( due to his profession)when leaving him.Which I finally did( left him).
Are you scared of him?
In that case ( if you have not done it) I would really consider consulting our Master Strategist through a consultation to know step by step how to protect yourself.
When all the confusion that he is deliberately planting in your head now dissipates you will feel your strength back with full force. Continue giving yourself the time to get your “head” back .
You can do this! You know you can.I perceive you as a very strong woman.
I wish you a good and stronger day today.
Aw, I’m sorry, SuperXena — I didn’t mean to worry you. But yes, I’m kind of scared of him. I’m not scared he’s going to physically hurt me… I’m more scared about him nabbing me somewhere (he’s used “grab you” more than a few times, and that’s not sounding right)…he’s much more aggressive (verbally/in a chilling way) than when I dated him. His narcissism is so obvious to me now, and he’s much more fierce (for lack of a better term). He has a big façade (professionally) to protect, but I live many hours away from him, and nobody knows this is even going on, so I’m thinking his façade doesn’t help me now. He’s very jealous, and he does act like I’m his property (makes me feel awful typing that), so he’s already been extremely aggressive to a male friend of mine who lives near him… as in telling him to stay out of our “relationship.”
No worries, I’m certainly not planning on doing battle with him… ironically, there’s a Viking shield on the wall at home, LOL (heirloom). But trust me, I’m not in any way equipped to do battle with him! I did mean NC. I already talked to two co-workers at one office, downplaying it and saying I’ve got a problem ex-BF, in regard to calls coming in for me. They were immensely helpful/compassionate, but I feel bad because they both seemed worried, but I really had to say something… so they’re totally on board.
Yes, I’ve thought about a consult, but now that I’m bolstering NC, I’ll have to see how it goes. It’s not so much that I need info from HG about this particular aspect, as he has given out great site info on NC… it’s more like I need him to call my narcissist and confirm: “Yeah, Caroline is super stubborn. She’s not a good choice. You won’t be moving her — better to go to Plan B.” 🙂
Thanks, SX…I can do this. It’ll be fine! He told me he’ll never even pretend to be friends with me — said he has zero desire to be my friend — and I do believe him on that. I thought infrequent friendly contact was a way to ease out of this, but I’m actually glad he’s set like that, as he has decided it’s all or nothing with me — as in IPPS, or nothing.
Ok, nothing it is! 🙂
..and remember they are not just hoovering you …they are hoovering others at the same time…sounds harsh but we are not special or unique to them..
Valid consideration.
except perhaps during the golden period which is an illusion both for the narcissist and for the one he/she entangles with and whose duration an intensity depends on completely external factor to us( has actually nothing to do with us ) and that to some extent not even the narcissist can control.
SX,
I don’t know if this is the case with him or not (if he Hoovers others), but that is not an issue for me, as in hurting my feelings. I don’t WANT to be special to him, because I don’t want to be with him! I do not feel complimented or cared about or special or anything good from this pursuit — I feel disrespected and increasingly fearful, frustrated and (today) angry.
The only temptation I have in breaking my NC is because I am scared of him, and I hate admitting that, but I can’t control this guy — he is doing a lot of stuff! I feel like something even worse is coming, so I lose my nerve sometimes. And by that, I mean I have tried to placate him, like with friendship.
Caroline,
It is good to hear that you are determined not having him in your life anymore.
I wrote an answer to you before getting this one about your fear.
I can relate to that feeling of fear because I had gone through that .
Fear was the only thing that kept me coming back every time he hoovered me when I “escaped”: not just one year but 6 years of my life ( as an IPPS of a narc of the upper school).
I do not know which school your ex belongs to or what he is capable of doing so I am not saying you should not fear( never underestimate your enemy).But you need a strategy.
If you consult with HG ( if you have not done it) and know more about what he is capable of doing and what you can expect, then you will know how to protect yourself.You would be prepared.
It was through consultations when I could finally manage my feeling of fear to him knowing what to do with different hypothetical scenarios. I was prepared by defining a strategy.
It was exactly that ( consultations) that made possible for me to cut the last bond finally after 6 years .
If you are afraid of him he with high certainty has intimidated you through the relationship.
I would not recommend you “staying” friends” since by doing that you are just keeping the gates open. Do not break No Contact.There are other ways of tackling your fear!
I really wish you well Caroline!
SX,
Thank you! 🙂 Our replies are crisscrossing, lol! I wrote you back more specifics related to this (it’s rather long/probably will be hung up for awhile)… but I’m 90% sure he’s a Greater. The only other possibility is UMR, but it seems that is not very likely.
Ha, ha ! Yes , I noticed that. Our messages are crisscrossing. Different time zones maybe.
Well, at least is a sign of some kind of “sisterhood “ that we care for each other although we do not know each other but we have a common denominator.
According to the information given through consultations my ex was one of those (Greater).
Your welcome Caroline. If sharing with you what I went through is of any assistance to you, it will be a pleasure to continue doing it.
Best wishes!
Sisters dealing with different misters. 😉 XO, SX.
Ha,ha Caroline. That rhymes perfectly.
What about :” Sisters dealing with the same misters”
Oops….:)
Oh, horrors, SX! LOL.
P.S. You’re Norwegian, right?
Good question Caroline.
I do not regard myself as pertaining to a certain cultural identity. I am a mixture of Scandinavia ( more precisely Svealand) , originally from a southern remote ( for me now) tropical country , having resided/ studied as well on different countries ( i.ex. US) …so I guess I can say that I have my “own “cultural identity.
Interesting because with a lesser or mid it seems to bother them when you point out their repeated relationship failure. They know it’s not normal most are not that stupid. They are intelligent enough to know they aren’t like others and it seems to trouble them when you point it out almost as if they feel their secret has been exposed
My most recent Narc is middle lesser. He has said he knows he has anger issues and the he knows he isn’t like other men in regard to his ability to express emotions and affection. He absolutely hates any discussion of emotion. He has also told me he is incapable of caring for others when I pointed out the error of his ways in some of this, he said it works for him.
It is an addiction, Caroline
A Malice Obsession and a Fuel Obsession provides fuel that is so potent and effective that we use the power generated to keep hammering you with more and more hoovers.
This will be done to draw negative fuel and potentially to draw you back in to the Formal Relationship so the pain stops,
https://narcsite.com/2016/10/11/why-does-he-keep-hurting-me/
Thank you kindly, Miss K! 🙂 That’s good to review. You’re always so helpful.
Too bad I can’t handle this like I did when I was dating him. He could be snarky to others at times, and I’d touch his arm and softly whisper, “Don’t be mean.” And he’d stop being mean! Lol. He didn’t get mad — didn’t acknowledge it — but he’d stop.
Too bad I can’t now tell him: “Don’t be a maniac.” *_*
My pleasure, Caroline, I am always happy to help out whenever possible. Maybe that positive fuel (I’d touch his arm and softly whisper) mollified him. As much as you would like to tell him, “Don’t be a maniac.” be strong and maintain NC.
From my perspective, the Narcissists inability to go without people (fuel) is a loss. Some people relish solitude.
I remember that once I found my N would live without his amputated toe, and that others were caring for him, I took a security job at a remote private airstrip in the desert for 35 days. I interacted with no one for 14 days, then the owners came out and I helped them install a solar well pump. They left after 2 days, and a neighbor from 3 miles away wandered over because he noticed people through his binoculars. I told him I was there for isolation to write and did not want interruptions. Then I was alone for 19 days. Maybe because I had dogs, that doesn’t seem like much, but my N would no way have been able to stand 1 day out there.
Even when he took me “camping”, once, he insisted on driving to town to eat, and display his charm to the locals .
I do wish that the good that you do here would be enough to heal at least some of the damage that causes you to need to seek fuel. I would wish for you to be comfortable alone with yourself, and to understand, despite the way you were treated as a child, they you are now, and were then, worthy of love and acceptance, and i would wish that you would not commit acts that can be pointed at to “prove” you are as much a disappointment or damaged as you were led to believe.(I understand that these acts, now, are just to gain fuel from your perspective)
I have not been disappointed by you. Indeed, I find you amazing and interesting.
But if wishes were horses then beggars would ride.
Caroline
I am the same. Part of me is very frightened of him.i did the same placating the friendship. After all, he did say he wants to be friends?
Nope. It doesn’t work being friends is just their lazy asses wanting a pass to hurt you with out having to fake all of the seductive crap. You can’t be “friends” with someone who gives you the ST or is constantly and subtly doing things he know hurts you.
At the end of the day if they wish to hurt you they will whether you are “friends” their desire to hurt us is compulsive. It must be done. It part of the cycle and the pathology. The only chance you stand for escaping if is staying out of view
They do eventually move on
Hi, Lori… he said he won’t be friends with me anyway (which IS for the best). He was actually insulted by the suggestion, as in pissed — and struggling to control his voice (to *not* yell, which he’s actually never done with me, but that came close). He made it super clear there will be no friendship, ever. Not like I want that either, but I thought it would be effective to get this intense stuff to fade, and then part of me thought maybe we can actually have a fun, light friendship (I do like his intelligence and sense of humor), but no…there will be no fun. LOL. Yeah, only a committed relationship of misery will do. Thanks, sounds lovely — but no, I’ll pass.
When this whole mess started (I was still clueless about the narcissism), he said “sure” when I firmly said “just as friends.” So when I brought that up to him, he said he meant it was going to be a period of time for us to get to know each other again. Pretty sure that’s called lying!
SX
Yep. This thing we call “narcissistic perspective” is a fancy word for what we call “spin” people put spin on shitty things that they are trying to make sound good. In reality, it is merely someone trying to convince themselves and others that something doesn’t suck when they clearly they know it does. Depending on the depth of the “spin” and the shame associated with it it can border on down right delusional.
Spin takes a whole lot of untruths and sprinkles in a little truth to make it seem legitimate. Nope it’s still the same shitty thing you tried to put lipstick on and sell
I also call it window dressing and part of the facade.
Lori,
It seems to me that you just have made a spin to my comment. And is a typical example of how your perspective interprets the world from your standpoint ( being different from mine as it is different to others).
I was not talking about any specific perspective.I was trying to lead you into reflect WHAT a perspective is .
Perspective is a particular attitude towards or way of regarding something; a point of view; a frame of reference; a standpoint .
Those judgements opinions , points of view are affected by our central or core belief system. It is as though we are looking at the world through distorted or coloured lenses – and everyone has their own personal prescription or colour for their glasses.
Our core belief system is formed and influenced by past experiences ( childhood upbringing), culture, values ,current circumstances, character traits ( including genetic influences). That is to say :a perspective is how people perceive events and objects depending on all the factors named above. Perception is unique to every individual and is simply one’s interpretation of reality.
I cannot possibly see the world through your “glasses” because I have my own as all the others have theirs.
And I cannot say that what you see through your glasses is wrong or right because it is only you the one that can see through them.My reality is different from yours as it is for others. It works both ways:
That is to say : you cannot say that what other people see through their glasses is wrong or right because you do not see and perceive the world the same way you do.
Perhaps you get the point more clearly of what I am saying by quoting the proverbial phrase:
What do you see: “Is the glass half empty or half full?”
An excellent comment.
Of course it is! She’s SUPERXENA!:-)
Ha,ha Caroline.You make me feel as Wonder Woman. By the way have you seen the Wonder Woman films? Wonder Woman 2 with Gal Gadot will be released 2019…just awakening the inner child sometimes 🙂
Aw…I dated a super cute European guy for a time, and I remember he would say, “You make feel AS…” so you reminded me of that and made me smile so big.
And I LOVE WONDER WOMAN, SX. Love!
(I’m pretty relieved today… got the best news at my workplace — via TVs that are always on — about a big sexual assault court case in the U.S….I cried at the verdict, I was so happy!).
Thank you HG. I appreciate your comment.
Hello Superxena
Well said.
Thank you Twilight!
SuperXena
A very clear and thorough explanation that from my perspective is correct. Thank you.
Thank you NarcAngel!
My glasses are similar to SX’s and NA’s.
K, can we switch glasses sometime?
No, you cannot, SuperXena! You three have totally different colored frames, and it will mess me up… and I’m already a tad stressed from the narcissist.
Caroline … that is a very healthy sentence you just posted. Recognizing that we are mindfucked enough with our Narc that we stay out of other mindfucking debates for our sanity… that is LT at is best :)) I am out of debate too for that reason !
LOL, OMJ!…
My Dad calls me “The Little Diplomat,” but I can also be quite the little Viking, when someone really presses me, in an errantly evil way… about every six months or so — WHAP! — given how I feel inclined. 😉 It surprises people, but I’m underestimated. That said, I am innately gentle and prefer peace.
So I do see very different colors for the three, for real…100%, we are all unique, no matter the similarities in “categories.”:-)
Besides stars and sun is the same thing except one is closer and we call sun and one is further and we call star…
Zing.
Anytime you want, SX!
Good K! Thanks.
Hahaha. I note she didnt want mine.
NarcAngel, I think she would if you ask ::)
Ha ha ha…maybe she is worried about what she might see, NA.
Ha,ha,
NA! I thought you were talking about K…you were talking about me 🙂
Of course I would like to switch my glasses with yours…we can go in shifts ?:
K-NA-SX….alternating glasses between each other..?
I guess I am tired now..tough week .I should go and take a short break…
Brilliant. Exceptional. Bravo HG. And much gratitude!
Thank you DUTG.
Awesome HG………
Thank you Melissa.
Thank you for this post HG. It is very helpful. I think I need to read it at least once a day to keep reminding myself of it 🙂
Narcissists are experts at creating illusions. Their illusions can appear so real and so attractive that they entice people into believing that the illusion IS reality. If people are not affected badly enough by the illusions, or are enjoying the golden period, it is impossible to convince them the illusion isn’t real.
I am going to remember the points you make in this post. Narcissists don’t really “win”. Their illusions just make it look like they do.
Correct WN and it is a useful article to keep as watchword to your heart.
I will print it and put on my fridge door. There is something about this article that is so cringely right .
I love to read the « we don’t care « it takes a while to absorb this in its cruel reality !
They may not win but those who get emotionally involved with them always lose.
Again thats a matter of perspective even if a narcissist ensnares a super empath as HG puts it for a purpose the empath needs rather than the narcissists needs, usually a covert cerebal,, ie for children and her body clock.. It still means the empath needs to work on themselves! Narcissists are indeed angels in disguise as they force you to face yourself learn what your power is. Remember an empath usually has poor boundaries and the like that were tested in the beginning. You are not worse off once you have finished gorging on information you should naturally turn inward and be more interested in self improvement. There by achieving a happiness a narcissist cannot.
The second list is wonderful. By ingesting all your writings, videos etc, the anger and hurt subsided incredibly quickly, I read ur REVENGE book and thought it was superb- but ultimately I don’t have the time or energy or even the desire anymore- I just went on w life . But that second list would help so many women I know, if they’d only accept the advice
It is a watershed moment for you that you can read Revenge and decide you do not have the desire. You have got your emotional thinking under control. Keep it that way W.
This is going to sound insane, but I never wanted revenge. I am no saint, trust me, but I just wanted him to have the courage to face his demons. I did. ( Hello therapy) Here is the point: I had to take some personal responsibility for allowing it to happen. Yes, I was completely ignorant of what I was dealing with. I also had some flashes of insight along the way, rare as they were, that something was not right. I loved him so much that I ignored them. That is on me. Period. I have done so much work on myself. It was impossibly difficult. I am never going to say that I don’t have things to learn. The more I learn the more I realize I know absolutely nothing. In a very strange way, I am grateful for what I have gone through. I am a better person because of it. Stronger. Some days are still awful, I am not going to sugarcoat that. Some days I am angry that he is still smearing me all over town. You would think he would be tired of that by now. He is in his GP with someone else and has been. ( His second someone else, by the way) I am assuming he is angry because he has finally figured out that I am never going to unblock him anywhere. I was the one that was discarded though. Then hoovered. Then discarded again. I was smart the second time. I knew what was going on, I just played it cool. Never lost it. Never trashed him. Then I caught him with his latest . ( Playing me again, that’s what I meant when I said discarded again. ) I am sure he thought I was going to go crazy. I didn’t. I did nothing. Waited to see what he would do.. He did nothing. I blocked him. That was 5 months ago. I was IPPS for almost 5 years. I think he is finished with me for awhile at least. I am making it impossible anyway.
I am going to try not to come to your site as much. I have healed enough where it is more of a trigger than a help. I am going to visit when I really need a swift kick in the rear. I really wanted to say thank you. No BS, tell it like it is is exactly what was needed. To be blunt: Those other sites are crap. Seriously.
HG- pertaining to number five, have you ever witnessed a UL or lower mid ranger that does NOT have charm , & has other issues that make it difficult for him to attract a mate
I have.
Thanks for your amazing articles HG. You hint toward some of your other articles being about retribution methods. Would you be so kind as to provide a link to these blog articles? If I like what I read, I will most certainly buy your book on the subject! Again many thanks, your insight is invaluable.
I listen to this from time to time. Great for healing from emotional tninking. This one and “How To Make the Narcissist Return” are my favorites. Simply for the power embodied in the last lines.
“It is an appearance.”
“I do not want the narcissit to return because he is a narcissist. Then you would have begun to sieze the power. “
It is well documented that Narcs are failures at life. We recover. They do not.
Revenge? Against who really? There is no one to get revenge against. He never really existed. This is someone who will litterally disintegrate without supply
But if it makes anyone feel any better, I have known many Narcs. Did I know they were Narcs no that was pre Internet days. They were just known as “difficult” or “cheaters” as I have watched them age and even die things didn’t turn out well for them. Some who were quite wealthy and end up broke. Some turned to alcohol and drugs and pretty much die alone. How can it really turn out any differently when you destroy your nearest and dearest. It cannot turn out well the same way they cannot change
I assure you this is true. An entire life without love that is is the worst revenge ever.
Well said lori
Revenge against an illusion … that is quite the thing. Isn’t like fighting against windmills Like Don Quixote ?
At the end of the day we all get to réalisation that exercising revenge is still being caught in the past of the illusion .
Moving forward with our life is not revenge it is growing and going in OUR paths… not their fuel path.
Winning at all cost is their philosophy , upper hand, getting an edge over , non sense, confusion , faints etc this war terminology is not intrinsically mine – but I live with it when I interact with my Narc – I always feel I am at war for something !!!
I agree with you, OMJ.
At this point I don’t want revenge, I just want him to go away and stay away so I can build a solid fortress.
Your revenge is looking healthy achieving goals and going on. They really can’t stand that.
But if you really wanna get under their skin let them no they don’t matter in a very indifferent manner. Looking better than you have ever looked, achieving success, and indifference are dagger in the Narcs heart.
Looking good and moving on tells then they didn’t matter which strike the very core of their shame.
Their motto: Love me! Hate me! But dont ignore me or out achieve me!
Lori – I know one that is quite old now but was wealthy enough to ensure he always had people around him.
I always wondered if he had been broke how he would have ended because really he is horrible .
That is appearance. It doesn’t turn out well for them. How can it? They are completely vacant and have lived an entire life without giving, receiving or feeling love. It is impossible for things to end well.
It’s a life never feeling content. Always montiring and securing supply. An addict always worried about running out of the drug.
I so agree with you Lori. He has people around him but he needs to find them for let’s say 50 % and it is not getting easier.
He would absolutely agree to your sentences – he is a greater elite and he tells me often that he knows who he is and what he does.
I know this is further manipulative technique to have me help him, find specialist for him etc but at the end of the day – that part I know he is honest.
HG and I have had that conversation that he can say the truth – but there is a mean to saying it.
It won’t change him to be conscious – he did see many specialists and I suspect he has other disorders but he won’t change and he will die with that life experience and having hurt so many people , his kids, his wife and the zillions of woman and other people that have entered his life.
Hi everyone. I am in the deleting stage. Today I threw away all the red lingerie. I could only wear red. No black, pink, white . . . Just red. I don’t think l will ever wear red lingerie again. It sickens me, sad to say.
Also, I am surprised by how many little things I find around my house that remind me of him–in the trash it goes!!
There are some things I wanted to keep but now I may just give them to thrift store. Save-A-Pet donation in his name.
TX HG. I get more comfort with the reminder that his ‘happy’ life IS just an appearance than if I continue to think about ways to get revenge. I’m glad he’s out of my life. I feel better every day. I still think about him way, way too much though . . . .
HG
Appearances can be deceiving.
Revenge can wait.
I desired revenge and I got it, I learned a lesson from it. I thought it would make me feel better…..it didn’t cause I felt what he went through. Many would say he deserved what he got. I say he didn’t…it didn’t change things, at least not for him.
I was wrong because of what drove my desire for revenge it was born from anger, if I had done what I did out of love….well it would be called revenge.
A healer can provide both…help life or take it away, just depends what the driving force behind the action.
It would not be revenge
This is very timely dear HG … I was in golden melancholy as a picture pop up on my fb that I had posted when we were abroad and just before devaluation and salami slicing started !!! :))
When I tried to assert myself in any way regarding where I stood in the relationship(ipssS) I was always given some excuse..the I love you were always said by him and I was fawned over when together. He would dissapped for often 2 weeks when I said it’s over you don’t treat me right ..your never there for me..BINGO silent treatment for weeks or months..These relationships are sole destroying
thank you. I think any narc victim needs to read this. it’s one of the best texts I have read for getting over a narc. great writing.
Great article HG…thank you sir!
Remember the last sentence!! Always!! It is evident that we do move on without concerns and therefore give the appearance of always winning and always getting away with it.
The key for you to remember is this.
It is an appearance.!!!! It is this last sentence that you need to understand!!! They just appear to be getting away with it!! Reality: If your strong enough to make your presence (ever presence) in their lives then they just appear to be! They’re not and they know this!! Believe me!! I have the power knowing that I’m stronger than him pisses him off!! And in my divorce right now I have and hold the power! How? I know he wants to hurt me!! And he knows how!! He tried already and he “!FAILED!” I read the book “Revenge!” I took those measures! And the segregation against him.I took his weakness (Critisizm) against his shortcomings and filed for divorce behind his back thus he was slammed with the paper! His last words to me were. “ You filed for divorce on 2 March 2018 and you didn’t have the guts to tell me!” It was his own reaction to this plus when I escaped him without his knowledge! He is a aging narc. But a covert one at that!! I survived his smear campaign!! Etc.. I turned and used his ownnnarcissistic traits against him! Role reversal!That’s my revenge!!
This so explains why he often said “I fake it until I make it”. May have been the only truth I ever heard.
The need for revenge is a feeling that is foreign to me. Wanting to see someone else hurt because you have been hurt makes no sense in my mind. It’s like a parent spanking a child for hitting his brother. Just another empathic trait I suppose.
Getting revenge is digging 2 graves.
Sjs .. absoutely! I just karma take care of it. Id be lying if i said I hadnt thought about revenge and I think the only thing that stopped me was because I saw how I was dubbed the crazy one and I didnt want to make him appear right. But as time passes I think you start to just see its no use and only negitive can come from it. Let others find out what the N is all about on their own.. they eventually will do so.
Thank you, HG, it may sound strange, but your writing puts me at peace.
There really is no use on going back to what was. Or entertaining any ideas of going back.
There’s no changing him, them, or changing what happened.
But I can change the now.
T – you absolutely speak wisdom. When reminded all this out LT takes some more space and we feel better in a way!
I agree that it is quite soothing.