The Love Triangle
Triangulation is a devastating weapon in our arsenal. Whether we are triangulating you as our primary source with another potential love interest (real or imagined), you with family and friends in terms of loyalties and spending time together or even triangulating you with an object (our mobile ‘phone or our flash new car) you will always be triangulated when you entangle with our kind. Triangulation comes in many guises but has two broad categories. Firstly, there is the triangulation which is taking place but you do not even witness it. This is where we may be conducting an affair behind your back and you have no knowledge of it at all. This is still triangulation because we are involving three people in our intimate relationship but you do not witness it and the third party may not know about you either. The second category is where you witness the behaviour. For instance, we spend more time jabbing our mobile ‘phone and talking on it than spending time with you. We may make mention of a particular person (usually of the opposite sex) a lot of the time. We may even tell you that we have been carrying on with someone else because you do not show us enough admiration and appreciation. In such instances, you witness the triangulating behaviour but often you will not actually realise that it is taking place. This is hiding in plain sight. You dismiss it by trying to convince yourself that there is nothing to be concerned about or we may assuage your fears through our usual charm and persuasion. One thing that you can be assured of however is that you will be triangulated during your entanglement with us and it will not just happen the once.
This reliance on triangulation as part of our manipulations is because it is so effective at achieving many things for us. What then, does triangulation achieve?
– It is often easy to implement, e.g. making mention of someone, spending our time playing video games, meeting someone frequently, perking up when a certain person calls round or telephones;
– We gain fuel from two sources out of the same circumstances;
– It underlines our notion of omnipotence since we are able to orchestrate the actions of two people so they compete with one another over us, we are the puppet master jerking the strings of two love rivals;
– It creates uncertainty in one or more of the parties which makes it easier for us to exert control and harder for the party or parties to see clearly;
– It causes the participants to focus on defeating one another in order to win us as the prize and thus they do not realise that we are really the problem;
– It allows a discarded primary source to be smeared with ease;
– It assists the maintenance of our façade.
Accordingly, the act of triangulation serves many purposes which accord with our malevolent agenda.
Why then is it so effective? Again, there are several reasons behind this.
– The addictive quality of our seduction and the golden period is so powerful that it is truly regarded as a prize worth winning;
– The fear of losing someone so (apparently) wonderful, loving and magnificent is too great to bear;
– The fear that someone else might actually succeed with the relationship when you are trying to reach that point. You do not want someone to reap the reward of your hard work and instead you want to win the day, continue to deal with the hardships in order to restore the golden period;
– You feel that you know us far better than the other person;
– You feel that it is your right. You have given everything to the relationship and therefore it is only just and fair that you get to have the relationship. You may have borne our children, helped us through difficulties, lent us money, housed us, dealt with problems for us and you are damned if some Jane-Come-Lately is going to profit from all your hard work.
These are all valid factors as to why the act of triangulation is so powerful and an effective. Yet, let me provide you with another reason, one which is possibly just as powerful as the addictive quality of the golden period. That reason is conditioning.
You are conditioned to think that love triangles are not only fairly common and something that is part of life, but you have been conditioned to think that they are actually rather wonderful and special. This may seem somewhat perverted thinking when you consider the agony and anxiety you experienced or you are experiencing when you are being triangulated, especially with a love rival, but it is a fact. Why is the love triangle scenario seen as something wonderful?
– It gives you the opportunity to prove you love us better and deeper than anybody else and with that comes a powerful sense of self and validation;
– It accords with your belief in the maxim that love can conquer all. You are a love devotee and therefore you believe in and want to see love triumph. When your love sees off a rival, that is the power of true love.
– The love rival is the enemy. This just isn’t you against her in order to win our hearts, it is light versus darkness, good against evil, love versus lust. You are a representative of the powers of light and goodness and you will overcome your dark nemesis. Of course, what you do not realise at the time is that the person you are fighting over is actually your nemesis and we are not going to remove that notion from you.
– It is actually pretty damn hot and exciting. Your senses are alive, you are going to keep our heart/win it back, the tug-of-love although worrying at times also provides you with high-octane excitement, the rush of adrenaline when you score a victory, the elation at seeing us choose to spend time with you and not the other person. This back and forth, push and pull, is regarded as thrilling.
Why then are you conditioned to think and feel in the ways that I have described? Simple. You are surrounded by love triangles. They are throughout history, they are in film, in literature, you see them in the celebrity gossip sections of newspapers, they are commented on in internet forums, they feature on the news, you watch them unfold in soap operas on television and you bought the t-shirt supporting Team Jacob or Team Edward. Or was it Peeta or Gale? You cannot get through the day without seeing or hearing about some kind of love triangle and it is always portrayed in a salacious, exciting, mesmerising and romantic way. Who will triumph? How noble to fight over one person’s heart? However much you may not want to admit it, you know that the concept of a love triangle is alluring and fascinating. You do not often hear somebody declare,
“All three people need to take a long look at themselves, stay away from another and evaluate what is really going on before they continue to hurt themselves and others.”
Of course you don’t. Where is the excitement in that?
You have been fed a daily diet of triangulation throughout your life so you actually regard it as something to be expected and something that excites. In order to prove this point, I have compiled, off the top of my head, as many love triangles as I could think of in literature, film and real-life in just five minutes. Consider the following: –
Literature
Twelfth Night, Dr Zhivago, Dangerous Liaisons, Tale of Two Cities, Lolita, The Great Gatsby, Atonement, The Talented Mr Ripley, Don Quixote, The Count of Monte Cristo, The Age of Innocence, The Phantom of the Opera, The Twilight Saga, The Hunger Games Trilogy, Harry Potter and my favourite Wuthering Heights
Film
Gone With the Wind, Casablanca, His Girl Friday, The Graduate, Oklahoma! Damage, Titanic, Bridget Jones, Closer, Vanilla Sky, Sabrina, Grifters, She’s The Man (Twelfth Night), Indecent Proposal, Being John Malkovich, Fight Club (imagine being triangulated by an imaginary person created by yourself!)
Real Life
Cleopatra, Mark Antony and Julius Caesar (which actually went further as Mark Antony had two wives already)
Helen of Sparta, Menelaus and Paris of Troy
Meg Ryan, Dennis Quaid and Russell Crowe
Bill Clinton, Hilary Clinton and Monica Lewinsky
Liz Taylor, Richard Burton and Eddie Fisher (Taylor and Burton met whilst filming Cleopatra – triangles within triangles!)
Kristen Stewart, Robert Pattison and Rubert Sanders (not only did Sanders also have a wife and kids but Stewart seemingly though her fictional triangulation was not enough and wanted a real-life version too!)
I would be interested to know if you think that any of our kind exist in those love triangles and who it is.
I am sure you can think of many others and please do make those suggestions. This is what I came up with in a short time and it does not end there. You are triangulated by products and advertisers – are you an Xbox player or PlayStation, red or brown sauce on your bacon sandwich, Pepsi or Coca-Cola – on it goes. With such a backdrop of triangulation across society, thrust in your face every day you are consequently conditioned in the way that I have described. You have no chance but to be affected in this way. Accordingly, when our kind comes along, the master practitioners of triangulation, you do not stand a chance.
70 thoughts on “The Love Triangle”
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Caroline !! That is very powerful !! Thanks a million – I will do all this.
When I left Narc number 1 – my sister told me to write why I left him because she knows I only keep the good in my brain so I needed to have the ugly written to remember.
So you really are great !
For HG – I need to see how is best to seek his help – I feel I need to swim a bit on my own and fail and win and then pursue. But I might be wrong .
He has made to date , such a difference in my life.
Aw, so sweet…you are most welcome. 🙂
Yep, it’s somehow easy to recall the good stuff and gloss over (or deny) the bad. That’s often a good quality to have, in many areas of life – but not helpful, at all, if you’ve experienced a narcissist…
We all could stand to keep a “The Bad and Ugly” journal. It’s sorta like that t-shirt keepsake, except it should be: “I had a relationship with a narcissist – and all I got was this crappy, tear-stained journal!”
As for HG and the “difference he’s made in your life,” that reminds me of a song. I’ll go find it now, to post…
Just kidding, HG! (He loves all my YouTube stuff so very much~~heh) 😉
P.S. I’ve noticed that the longer I’m NC with the narcissist, the more I tease HG… strange.
YEAH Yeah he loves emojis …. and I love your t-shirt idea 🙂
I miss the interaction with Narc because of the energy – so HG is a safe Narc energy !
I like banter… my mind is like a kids playground, lol… and that is fine, in safe context. My SuperEmpath old boss/friend can make me laugh harder than anyone. On the job, it was difficult, because she would say things in meetings only I could hear, and it’s like when you’re in school, and you can’t stop laughing, and it’s just truly awful — as you try to maintain composure/professionalism. I would fidget or cough, until I just had to sometimes excuse myself to go to the restroom. She was very, very bad! But so fun.
Sadly, I have no cute emojis, except the smile and sad-face, IF HG is on site. At first, I thought only the Brits got all the emoji access on here, like a special privilege. LOL
P.P.S. I think I just figured this out…HG banters the same, so it’s familiar. Ah…Light bulb moment.
Brilliant, HG. Learned of triangulation as a young child. Conditioned by family. Nurture. Liz Taylor triangulated or was a victim of it all her life. I still believe she was a codependent, not the narc. Any opinion on her?? I’m curious.
I seem to be working on a first class trip to hell, so here goes my thoughts on a triangle and HGs kind
In my studies a triangle God at the top and husband and wife at the bottom across each other. Each keeping their eyes on God and working their way up till they met at the top. We are striving to be like God.
The narcissist at the top his/her appliances at each corner at the both with eyes on them. Striving to get to the top. As they work their way up, anger, envy, jealousy grows within them. They will never become a narcissist yet the closer they get the more they look like them. A counterfeit a fake. Reminding them sometimes it is just instinctively of what they really are.
Just one of my opinions
What is the red a d brown sauces used on bacon sandwiches in the UK in america we use mayo lol just curious
You do not use red sauce on a bacon sandwich (it is ketchup by the way) as this is an abomination.
The brown sauce is made up of tomatoes, molasses, dates, apples, tamarind, spices, vinegar, and sometimes raisins or anchovies, used in differing combinations to affect taste.
Mustard is also acceptable on a bacon sandwich.
HG
You comment made me giggle, yet I agree katchup is an abonmination on many dishes….except fries (chips there if memory serves me correct).
Chips, it is acceptable with chips, albeit it is full of sugar.
So… do you feel you need more sugar, HG Tudor?
No thank you Caroline, sugar is the curse of modern times.
That is no joke….and addictive.
If I have to chose which addiction….I will keep the one I have here with you and your amazing readers
Oh, HG Tudor…you are such an innocent lamb.
What?
ROTFL
huh, so it’s basically Medieval sauce
I highly recommend worcestershire sauce (different to HP sauce) on open face grilled cheese and in bolognese sauce.
Careful iroll, getting close to too much cookery related comments here!
Say what, Boss?
I thought that brown sauce was hp sauce. Growing up we had it on meat and eggs.
Hp sauce is brown sauce but other types are available.
Na Na Na … mr Tudor it is HG sauce :))
HG Sauce is something very special indeed.
More like feel the burn.*_*
HG sauce
I put that shit on everything!
It’s workin’ for ya:-)
Lol hg sauce id thought of that after 😄
In the midwest USA we use red and brown sauces . . . mayo on burgers. Lol. Thanks for the cheering up, Ugotit. I like your posts. 🤗
Hi HG, I presume triangulation comes in other forms outside of romantic situations . For example in family dynamics ? I’ve watched what I believe to be triangulation with a narcissist doing the following
Favouring daughter over son
Then favouring daughters children over sons children (grandchildren)
Pitting mother against daughter in a stepfather role
Being close to one sibling while not talking to another
I do understand all families can have issues , doesn’t always mean there is a narcissist, but do these scenarios seem likely of triangulation behaviour ?
Thank you
You are correct. Triangulation occurs in all manner of dynamics.
I have written comments on this blog before about an ex-live-in who I left after finding out that he was a diagnosed sociopath. Right when we first started dating, it became known to me that his divorce had not even been filed yet – and I literally got them divorced! Talk about triangulation!
This story of my ex-live-in, me and his ex-wife is so involved. She never knew that I did their divorce. She and I never talked to each other and I do not know if she is aware that her ex-husband and I lived together 3000 miles away! I wanted nothing to do with her after seeing her ram her car into his when we first were dating (this is how I found out that he was not divorced). She and I only came face-to-face once – when he was lying on a hospital bed between us!
I looked at HG’s YouTube video, “FB Ghostship” yesterday and decided to reactivate my FB. Well, unbelievably, on my ex-live-in’s FB page there was a post from his best friend, “R.I.P., G___” – exactly six months ago – to the day! Apparently, this Narcissistic Relationship is over for me.
His ex-wife had been staying in touch with him some on FB and has been chasing him for decades and thousands of miles. She never figured him out! I wonder if she will continue to be haunted by him because her own brain can’t let go of him??
Today, FB suggested to me that I might want to be friends with my ex-live-in’s ex-wife!!! True! My FB was deactivated again.
I prefer a circle, never a triangle..
Just recently I met someone new, who (after a while) confessed that he still lived with his ex. She knew he was seeing other people and it seemed like she still had a lot of emotions wrapped up in the situation. Based on what I’ve learned here, taking into account his actions, what he told me of her and my own observations, I believe he was trying to triangulate and foster a me vs. her thing. But she seemed like a genuinely nice girl. I bowed out fairly quickly and went NC before getting too involved.
Thank you for the info you continue to give us, HG. I believe it helped me dodge a bullet with this guy. Now I just need to get the other, bigger N out of my head.
“Kristen Stewart and Rubert Sanders”
They were looking for a better love story than Twilight? Before 50 shades became the worst love story of all time.
I understand being in or wanting to be in relationships with two different people, i don’t see how that becomes a triangle. If someone started bitching about their other partner, or if i thought they were treating someone else badly, i’d be creeped out.
Ouch, Journey… what a tough thing to see/absorb. It is the epitome of no decency – that lack of respect, loyalty.
Picture a triangle, friend. See the top point? Chip that portion off – that’s the narcissist up top — who made that shape — bound those lines together. On purpose, for the narcissist’s own insecure and dark reasons.
Now what you can see, with the chip off the top, what’s left?… Two women — who can now stand out as unique, in their own right — who should never be made to feel they need to be made to compete — bound together in a triangle of deception like that. Both women are valuable, and never should feel jealous or like they must be the best, to win attention or love. They both are great and special, in their innermost parts and what they put forth. They are different — the only one of their kind!
No need for jealousy. No need to compete. No need to be the “best.” Neither is crazy…
It’s the narcissist who has made them feel like that — uneasy, fighting for value, to be worthy… and it is a big, fat lie.
There is only ONE YOU (ever)….never forget your value + specialness.
XO.
Except to get things more complicated she might be a narc too – or maybe she is a super empath on supernova mode – but her narcissistic traits were very pronounced and the mixture was so explosive !!! In all my life – I never experienced such a story – my life turned upside down – I went a bit crazy – texts were flying at speed light until I thought of HG – I blocked everyone and stepped out of the mess.
Got a few Hoover’s – broke my NC- went a bit banana again – but I am back. And I am going now to read the article about breaking nc. You can always go back – that’s it.
F…
This. :))
Journey,
Sometimes the lower level discomfort is just not what it takes to break away… sometimes it has to reach that F-I point — where something inside you screams “ENOUGH!”
Then a hero comes along… hey, and it’s YOU.:-) I shall return, with your song.
Oh yeah. That is the f point !!!! The big F
Oh yeah — the F-I point!
I guess it is part of emotional fucking thinking too … lol :)) but that is why I was writing that in that disgustment there is a part of detachment too that comes around — like fucking does not care after all he is just a narcissist …
We can work with this! 🙂 You have a lot of spirit in you, Journey~ that + righteous indignation can be mighty powerful. I suggest a notebook, with three sections in it: 1) New things you want to do this summer (and make it interesting/fun!) 2) When ET rears its sentimental head, jot down things that irritated you about the narcissist’s behavior/was unfair, abusive, deceptive, etc. and use LT statements to counter any ET thoughts 3) Write positive statements about what is interesting/special/positive about wonderful you. 🙂
(Oh, and keep consulting with Sir Tudor) 🙂
This song is for you, Journey (I hope nobody makes fun of me for this, as it’s an inspirational song to me, re: something traumatic that happened):
Oh yes CAROLINE you little Narc trying to create that everpresence in my brain… I have catched you.. lol !!! I know this song – thank you we now have “ our “ song :))) lol
Journey~I am with you! I am for you! Her arm gestures + general physicality + nature + movements (in this video) it very much like me. Coloring is off, but if I can create “Caroline everpresence” without those details, I beat your narcissist — in your brain. 😉
So I win… for you!
XOXO.
Lol !!! Hey how is your journey going sweet Caroline !!! :)) ???
It is… how shall we say… different. It’s shifted into flying monkey territory, which is challenging (for me). I actually like the monkeys. So I’m practicing saying uncomfortable things like: “I appreciate your thoughts, but I don’t wish to see him,” or “You’re a very good brother, but it’s best that you don’t get involved in this.”
Good times.:-(
Interesting time… there are no potential flying monks for me but thank your for the trick in case he finds one.
He is giving up because
His fuel matrix is very low and he needs to find many replacements:))
Thanks for being here and for your support.
“Flying monkeys” reminds me of those creepy ones in Wizard of Oz (guess that’s where the term comes from), but I find it hard when the monkeys are nice – and these monkeys are oblivious that the narcissist is a narcissist. So I tread carefully.
As for yours finding his “replacements,” it’s sad really, but activate your LT: he *must* auto-operate like that… however, there is no replacing you as a unique individual, so keep remembering that important fact! Also, when a narcissist gives up the pursuit, I feel it is a real compliment to you. You cannot be toyed with. (I’m now insulting myself, how rude, as I am not yet being left alone…a rather mutant case of assorted weirdness, TBH…but go YOU — it really IS the very best/most liberating thing!).
He knows I am useless now and that I will default him every minutes – every words- every actions – he told me that I would be back when I am repaired . That is why I feel that his energy has let me go for now.
I suddenly don’t feel the invisible string – I can always tell what is happening in his world – I can sense it . I have proven to be right every time – was reading right.
He knows he can’t score any points now – because he has been horrendous. He knows I know – he can’t deny the proofs.
Last card he played was trying to make me feel cheap because of all he has done to me – suggesting I am in debts towards him.
My emotional bank went so low – it would take many lifetimes or loving actions to make it up.
It’s all a perspective and I am sure he is right in his view.
Thanks Caroline … he has given up because I am useless now and also because he has to hunt for his survival.
Even though I know what you mean, Journey…I must change that term you put out, regarding him knowing you are “useless.” Instead (somewhere in his squirrely mind), he knows you are:
-knowledgeable
-empowered
-onto crap
-not a pushover
-fighting back
-better than tolerating his neglect/abuse/deception
-sick of him!
Love,
Caroline
P.S. He owes YOU:
-honesty
-respect
-real care/love
The sad truth:
HE CANNOT EVER MAKE IT UP TO YOU.
You are great !! Please remember I am using Hg words on how a narc would think … Narc think I am useless – I am not – this is where my revenge lies :)))
Ah, gotcha. Is my dear friend plotting actual revenge? I shall look away and pretend I see not. 😉
I was thinking last night about how narcissists deny their victims the setting of “normal,” and how inhumane that really is. Like we must be so perfect, to cover their false self. I thought of a few times this became outrageous in my own FR, yet I didn’t say anything, which is not like me…and then a few new memories of this sprung to mind. I think I was so busy at the time I had the FR with the narcissist (with other things in my life) that my brain never fully caught up to what was happening, but my subconscious sure took it in… I feel like I noticed a lot (red flags), where it registered that something with him was wrong, but he was so subtle (and would quickly “turned the page”) that what was making me feel ill at ease was over practically before it ever began. So then I never addressed these things. But the brain does not like confusion, so I remember so much about these weird things today.
He also knew what to do/not do, with me, so very well. That’s scary to me. Had he not gotten so ridiculously controlling at the end, I might have actually married him! Because there was no overt abuse… it was insidious…carefully, meticulously done.
Sorry for rambling. I think I needed to process this. Thanks, Journey.:-)
I man having a « narc vacations’day » I feel good today – I feel free from him and I feel his disengagement and ungripped and I love it.
I look behind and I find I was so hooked.
I want to stay in my world – Narc free – no tension – plotting – lies – smears – manipulation. – having to prove myself every minutes etc
That’s so wonderful to hear, Miss Journey… so very happy for your newfound freedom.:) XO
I know it will ebb and flow but I enjoy this Narc free day !!! It’s like a drug – like wow – that is what is life without a puppet master 🙂
It may, Journey, and it’s understandable… but remember the light, good feeling of today.
Freedom. Best.Feeling.Ever.
-Live-free-or-die-Caroline (my warm-fuzzy motto)
Caroline and OMJ
Are you two in a contest to see who will have the last post in your conversation? It has to be the longest running exchange on narcsite and inquiring minds (okay one mind) would like to know.
Im teasing you of course but it has been fascinating me.
Are we in a contest?
Nope.
NA …
Really I needed the support and connection with someone who I felt understood me
I feel lonely in this story – 🙂
Again … I am painted black now !!!
Well, too bad he only has the can of white or black paint. ;-)His limited nature.
I see you as many colors~~much more interesting.
Like the song… true colour !!! If someone is showing their true colours don’t try to repaint them 🙂
Yes, indeedy~
Triangulation is silly because you don’t like someone *because* you dislike someone else, that in itself is de-valuing.
I get that people feel jealous out of insecurity, i do too – but to then avoid dealing with those feelings via aggression towards the person who isn’t causing them, just because they’re your ‘perceived intragender competition’, would go beyond feeling vulnerable in a specific relationship to feeling vulnerable in your whole gender identity.
Desire challenges our subjectivity and we can only fully experience it from a place of inner strength – otherwise there is no pleasure to surrender, only shame and fear. The narc fears shame because their position is one of pathological (hidden even to the self) – shame, so whatever desires they have are a threat, they then project that threat onto their objects of desire and try to destroy them, in order to have control over their needs.
Similarly, forcing your partner to feel something they don’t – to rebalance the vulnerability in your relationship – is also never going to resolve the causes of an imbalance, because desire reflects deeper processes within us. Identity and desire aren’t mere ‘choices’, though how we interpret them are.
When the narc tries to manipulate us through desire, it really is best to keep your integrity – which can mean not avoiding the emotional pain. Pain is information, it’s better to suffer than to let someone control you so that you’re the one rejecting yourself, in a twist of events!
Narcs (no matter their gender) who abuse and compete with women are misogynists – their condition doesn’t give them a free pass, they’re interpreting they’re inner state via social cues just like everyone else. To be a subjective person is always – also – to be a person in society. No ‘person’ exists in a vacuum, neurobiology doesn’t make anyone’s personality super or subhuman. There is no ‘just need fuel’ like a car needs gas, we all have basic and subjective needs, especially when desire is the source of the fuel. The term fuel when applied to humans means what we all need to survive as subjective beings.
“..it’s better to suffer than to let someone control you so that you’re the one rejecting yourself, in a twist of events!”
– This is actually how the narc’s self was made, which is also the subconscious cause of their deep resentment and hatred towards others. If you add an abusive mother to that, they you really need to stay away! It’s why they feel powerful when they hurt others, despite that act of revenge being a pathological repetition of their primal self-rejection (as defence against being wounded).
As i see it – the narc’s magical vampire thinking is their way of saying to themselves: “i resent my need for other people, they are beneath me and i will not lower myself to relate to them in any way.”
No one has to buy into their delusion, but by duping us into needing them, they manage to project their issues onto us simply because we get close and involved. Which is to be avoided.
I realise now how deep this goes.
Caroline
That song is perfect for so many here!
Within us all is strength, beauty, hope and most of all love. We just forget how priceless we truly are.
Stay amazingly beautiful, Caroline!
Aw, tenderhearted Twilight…I am in tears… thank you so much for your empathy and giving-heart — your very real, without presence — nature. I need it more than it seems.
You are a gem.
Thank you Caroline for for kind comment.
Without “pretense,” NOT “presence,” in my comment (below).
I hate spellcheck that overrides me…I say NO to that. It’s like a narc who changing things, as he wishes. NO to that!
I hate pretense more than almost anything!… and you are so genuine, Twilight.
All my life in triangles – always thinking it was better to be the one who knows.
Lately came to light in my recent history the smearing of me with the other one. I saw the texts.
I just want to puke to be honest.
Everything I have learned in one hour with that woman about the last 9 months of my life with this man- I knew he was lying / but f… that is beyond what I could ever think that lying was .
It is reallly another dimension – a twilight zone.
Of course he made sure it exploded and that we would arm each other’s – but 2 décents woman left the same day.
I know she knows that I am not crazy and I know she is not crazy but that only one the many crazy triangles of my past 2 years.
I’m upside down, Journey~~my reply (I think) is above you.;-)