The Dirty Empath – Infidelity
The Empath. Regarded as a paragon of virtue with those traits of honesty, decency, compassion, love devotee, moral compass and so on. All of which make the empath and their fuel output tempting prey for us. Yet within these virtuous empathic traits sit other traits, narcissistic traits.
There are four schools of empath (Standard, Super, Co-Dependent and Contagion) . Layered on to these schools are the empathic cadres (such as Magnet, Carrier and Geyser).
Each empath within the relevant school has both empathic and narcissistic traits. Some will have a small number of strong empathic traits with few narcissistic traits which are low in strength. Some will have many empathic traits which are moderate in strength and have few or numerous narcissistic traits which are all very low in strength. Some will have many empathic traits which are strong and numerous narcissistic traits which are moderate or even quite strong. The key consideration is that, in effect, the empathic traits keep the narcissistic ones ‘in check’ and thus the empathic individuals behave in a way which is empathic with other people.
There are however two main instances when the narcissistic traits come to the fore. The first is through The Empathic Supernova which is when the empathic traits become ‘dialled down’ or eroded for a temporary time and thus the narcissistic traits come to the fore. The second instance is a permanent state of affairs and this is the class of the Dirty Empath. The individual is empathic, of that there is no doubt, they have those empathic traits, they also have narcissistic traits too, however one of those narcissistic traits remains strong and prominent throughout and sits alongside the fewer, weaker narcissistic traits and the various empathic traits of varying strength. This does not mean this person is a narcissist, not at all. It does not mean that this person is not an empath. What it means is that they are an empath but there is one (sometimes there might be more) narcissistic trait which ‘dirties’ their empathic status. Think of the empath coloured white with a black streak running through them.
This class of Dirty Empath has various streaks which appertain to the relevant narcissistic trait which prevails and this includes the streak of infidelity.
Thus where the empath is already in a romantic relationship, whether living together,boyfriend and girlfriend or married and they embark on a romantic, sexual relationship outside of that relationship, their narcissistic trait of infidelity has risen to the surface and remained there. What has caused that to happen? As ever, it is a symbiotic equation.
From the empath’s side there is something not right within their existing relationship which means that the narcissistic trait comes to the fore.
For instance, let us take the example whereby the spouse of the empath is either an empath or a normal and has become impotent and/or has no interest in sex any more. All else is well within the relationship – they care for the empath, they pull their weight around the home, they are a good parent, they have a decent job and so on. All is largely well, save for the issue of sexual relations. In such a situation, the empathic spouse has the following choices:-
- Recognise that all else is well within the relationship, that sex is but one facet (albeit an important one) and accept that it is better to have all of the other good elements of the relationship and therefore not seek to damage the relationship or hurt their spouse by seeking sexual interaction outside of the marriage. This is the response of an empath who has no dirty streak of the narcissistic trait of infidelity;
- As above save that the empath regards sex as so significant that they need it yet they do not want to hurt their spouse. Accordingly, they seek their spouse’s blessing to seek sex outside of the marriage but otherwise want nothing more external to the relationship. This is the response of an empath who has the narcissistic trait of infidelity but it is not so strong as to amount to a dirty streak;
- As per point one, save that the empath craves sexual interaction and knows it can only be achieved outside of the relationship. They therefore seek out sexual encounters with other people but have no desire to leave the existing relationship. This individual’s narcissistic dirty streak has risen to the fore and governed the behaviour of this particular empath.
With regard to this third element it remains relatively rare that the empath will do this unilaterally because their traits of guilt, honesty, decency and compassion will fight against the desire to accommodate the narcissistic desire of infidelity. If the narcissistic trait is very strong, the empath may still seek out these encounters and have them with normal people, an empath in a similar position to their own or find a narcissist.
What happens more often than not in this third situation is that the empath spouse has been targeted by our kind.
An empath with no narcissistic streak of infidelity (or a very low one) will resist the sexual overtures of the narcissist. They may remain as a Non Intimate Secondary Source to the narcissist. It is highly unlikely they would be targeted to begin with in any event by the narcissist.
An empath with a narcissistic streak of infidelity, which is greater than very low, will succumb to the overtures of the narcissist and find themselves engaged in an affair, breaking their wedding vows, breaching the trust of their partner and becoming sucked in to the world of the narcissist. If the narcissistic streak of infidelity is very strong, the empath may even have sought out (unconsciously) the narcissist.
Combine the narcissistic streak of infidelity in the Dirty Empath and a narcissist and infidelity is a given. How this pans out very much depends on the desires and wants of the narcissist. Please see the latter part of The Married Target as to how we are drawn to those who are married and are thus susceptible to our overtures. We may want the empath to become our IPPS and thus they are designated the role of Candidate IPSS as we love bomb them and lure them away from their spouse using our range of manipulations in the way that is described in ‘The Married Target’. It may be the case that both Dirty Empath and narcissist are content with an arrangement whereby the Dirty Empath is a Shelf IPSS and sees the narcissist intermittently and is treated as a friend with benefits, side person or mistress. Both parties are content with this. The narcissist gains in accordance with The Prime Aims and the Dirty Empath scratches that itch for sex outside of the marriage (coupled with the excitement that accords with it) but keeps their own relationship intact.
Sometimes the Dirty Empath becomes the Dirty Little Secret and is content with that arrangement also.
Note however that whether the Dirty Empath is a Candidate IPSS, Shelf IPSS or Dirty Little Secret, this is always at the behest and control of the narcissist. The Dirty Empath may willingly embrace the dynamic (unaware of course that they are with a narcissist and what their role is) as it fulfils the desires of the narcissistic trait of infidelity.
The issue arises however when the Dirty Empath wants to remain in the role of Shelf IPSS or DLS but the narcissist wants the empath to become the IPPS. Battle is joined to pull the Dirty Empath in the direction the narcissist requires with all of the drama, triangulation and heartache that follows. The problem for the Dirty Empath is that having allowed themselves to be governed by the narcissistic streak of infidelity they have already trampled over their partner and the narcissist knows this. In the same way you cannot get a little bit pregnant, you cannot be a little bit unfaithful, you either are not or you are.
Where the Dirty Empath has hitherto enjoyed being the Shelf IPSS or DLS, keeping this activity secret from their partner and enjoying all the other benefits of the best of both worlds, it is the narcissist who ultimately calls the tune and if he or she wants that Dirty Empath in a different role, the narcissist will strive to make it happen. If the Dirty Empath will not accord with the change of allocated role then he or she can expect their partner to be told of their infidelity and invariably the narcissist will have evidence (photos, film, documentary evidence of hotel trysts, oral testimony from Lieutenants) to use against the Dirty Empath. If the threat of release of this material does not persuade the Dirty Empath to submit to the whim of the narcissist, then it will be released. The hitherto painted white Dirty Empath will be painted black, they will be devalued prior to dis-engagement and their own existing relationship with spouse or partner will be the prime target of the narcissist for the purposes of causing its destruction and spreading misery. The need to punish the disobedient Dirty Empath and the significant fuel available (negative fuel from IPSS, negative fuel from secondary/tertiary cuckolded spouse, negative fuel from secondary/tertiary sources allied with said spouse and/or Dirty Empath, positive fuel from loyal secondary/tertiary sources to the narcissist) means that the chances of the Dirty Empath being ‘let off’ are virtually nil.
The Dirty Empath may find they can keep their own infidelity quiet for some time, remain as a DLS or Shelf IPSS and enjoy an elongated golden period with the narcissist, but they have no control over that. If it continues that way, this is purely down to the approach of the narcissist. There remains a risk that the narcissist will wish to change the dynamic and with that comes significant consequences for the playing away Dirty Empath, his or her spouse, partner and family.
Those who “give in” to their narcissistic trait (and this is usually because a narcissist has ‘sniffed out’ this Dirty Empath will eventually end up suffering.
This happens in the following circumstances :-
- The DE is DLS or Shelf IPSS for some time and then the narcissist wants to promote them to Candidate IPSS and then IPPS, but the DE does not want this as this will blow open their infidelity;
- The DE is DLS or Shelf IPSS for some time and then the narcissist decides to dis-engage against the will of the DE;
- The DE wants to become the IPPS of the narcissist, but the narcissist does not want this to happen;
- The DE wants to become the IPPS of the narcissist, achieves this, leaves their former spouse with all of the attendant heartache that causes and then enjoys a golden period with their newly acquired (but unrecognised) narcissist. Of course you know what is coming next don’t you? Yes, the DE IPPS is then devalued and dis-engaged from. Their narcissistic streak of infidelity has seen them lured from an otherwise satisfying relationship, drawn by the golden allure of the unrecognised narcissist only for that to collapse and now they find themselves alone, rejected and often hated by narcissist and the cuckolded spouse they once had.
The Dirty Empath with the narcissistic streak of infidelity who becomes ensnared by our kind is only heading for misery. They do not have the lack of remorse, lack of conscience or lack of guilt that allows us to drive ever forward. Instead they are left to rue the consequences of this narcissistic trait being intensified and exploited by our kind.
Further articles will follow concerning the various streaks of the Dirty Empath.
68 thoughts on “The Dirty Empath – Infidelity”
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Hi LOVE!
I see you there.
“Some women are ladies, pure as snow, others are dirty whores. Some ladies, however, have a bit of the whore in them”.
– HG
How was this post not trolling? ^ ^
HG, is it possible for a somatic middle mid ranger who repeatedly cheated in the past to change and never cheat again in a scenario where he got a new IPPS and had a child with her he had always wanted but thought was unable to have and sounds embarrassed about his cheating in the past?
I look like a zebra 🤣
No surprise there, narc affair!
I never really believed in fidelity since I was raise by a father who cheated all his life.
I like to be faithful and I am usually until I need an excuse to leave then I just go for wild sex to purge the other guy.
I am fundamentally faithful – but I will never ver believe my partner will be. I think it is my protection- I rather believe my partner is not faithful and if he is than good for me – but I default that he won’t.
Sex has never been sacred to me .
It’s not the ultimate intimacy – kissing is. To me.
My last Narc I kissed once – it was delicious I still remember . Then he says he does not kiss anyone . I don’t believe him. I never asked him again although I craved it.
Yes, yes, yes. All his fairy-tales about me towards other women: “She does not treat me well.” “We haven`t had sex for more than half a year.” “She is so cold.” and whatever you can imagine was a great excuse for some dirty empaths to feel well with their arrangement. They did not feel guilt that they started an affair with him. They were proud of it. A lot of competition was included. “I am much more attractive than she is.” completed their own well-being. Not knowing, that he exploits everyone for his own purposes. A man in a relationship is a No-go!
My dirty narc told me a lot about dirty empaths while our golden period and I did not believe him a word. Yes, I am better informed about that now.
When I was despaired, another narc (I think, he is, but I do not know) tried to “comfort” me. We spent a whole weekend together, although he was married. Well, he did not succeed. I am not interested in that kind of relationship. I think, for this white knight I was a waste of time. He messaged me for more than a half year after that weekend, each single evening. I never answered. He is married and that is a No-go.
Well for me, I have been targeted by my narcissist because my marriage is going through a lack intimacy.
Working in close quarters with co-workers, We have plenty of time to talk about our life. My narc found out that my marriage was not 100% fulfilling for me, but I was not planning to leave him. So his goal was for me to get a divorce. So for a while I played along because I was enjoying all the attention he was giving me, and I believe that he was correct that my marriage was not as good as it should be. (I was starving for love) but I could never go further unless I got divorce. I never kissed or had sex with him. ( he played a lot of hot and cold) So eventually I got discarded.
Emotionally I got involved, so it is taking a long time to get over this mess!
Now I have a new co-worker love bombing and sending constant text messages and finding ways to see me (not sure if he is a narcissist) He is married and his wife is an alcoholic. He wants to just have an affair with me. I so far have pushed him away when he tries to make a move on me but I do flirt with him. HG am I a dirty codependent and does this new guy sound like a narcissist? Thanks.
There are indicators of narcissism there, yes, but one would need more detail through consultation to be certain.
White with a black streak? Please. I have so many streaks I make a Jackson Pollock painting look uncluttered.
Ha ha ha….who the hell are you kidding, NA! You are a black and white cookie; some days, more black than white! I think Jackson Pollock was a narc.
Thanks for the article! Reading the comments here has helped me to understand better about my own situation, and made me feel less lonely.
I’m a DE, and it’s totally out of my character. I am in a healthy and happy marriage with a guy and we love each other a lot.
I met my narc at work, and we got really close, so close that I thought we had a really strong connection. No matter how hard I tried to avoid it, I think I also wanted to be true to myself, and I gave in to my own feeling. I think my insecurities of the situation at work helped him, since my husband didn’t really understand what I was going through, my narc was there for me.
He was married too, but he claimed it was over, and his wife wouldn’t come with him to our city…He was lonely, and got sick a lot. I fell for it, for the strong bond and the feeling that I need to take care of him.
But once he got me, he started to triangulate me with my sister, gaslighted me and played mind games. He told me I have became someone he didn’t want to be with but he kept on holding on to the hope I would someday be again the person who he fell for originally. He made me feel crazy just because I wanted to care and love him.
I’m not sure if he was devaluating me or just trying to assert his control over me, as he did some nice things in between, which confused me. A lot of times I fought his games, I didn’t do everything that he asked me to do. But I did tolerated him a lot, cause I am a married woman, and I thought I loved him.
At one point I confronted him that I would be willing to take a risk with him, cause I am not cut to be unfaithful. I just can’t stand being the second fiddle, and I also can’t stand lying to my husband for the rest of my life. Of course he didn’t want it. I begged and I begged, and he said he’d think about it.
But he triangulated me again with my sister I break it with him. I told him I can’t share. Either we’ll be each other’s one and only or nothing at all. I said otherwise we probably better just be friends, and he was fine with being friends. This hurt me a lot, he was willing to let me go just like that.
In the meanwhile I got myself educated and found out about NPD, that all the things he did was textbook NPD behavior up to the projection and accusing me of being selfish, I did wonder if I was the narc.
The next time he called, I asked him again about the games he played with me, as usual he didn’t admit it, and tried to gaslight me again. I just laughed, I know what really happened. I told him he didn’t have any respect for me, and if he thinks so low of me, that’s his opinion. But that means there’s no point in continuing this relationship. I wished him luck and happiness in his future and he dropped the call. Since then I’ve been NC and blocked him.
HG, do you think he treat it as silent treatment? I really hope he will never hoover me ever…
“There are four schools of empath (Standard, Super, Co-Dependent and Contagion)”
What is a Contagion Empath? I have not found any article about this school.
E.B.
There is a bit about Contagion on these two articles.
https://narcsite.com/2017/06/26/the-3-strands-of-empathy/
https://narcsite.com/2018/03/01/the-saviour-empath-3/
HG is has an article in the works with more detail about the school.
Hi K,
Thank you very much. I will have a look at those two articles since I do not seem to fit the other schools.
You are welcome, E.B.
If you don’t mind sharing, I would love to know what your School and Cadre you are.
Hi K,
I am not sure what School I belong to, maybe Standard. As for Cadre, I am definitely a Carrier. Nothing to be proud of.
Hello E.B.
It’s all good. I am a Carrier, too! We can compare notes. I put myself in the Super category but I am curious about the Contagion, as well.
K,
Looking forward to the Contagion article too. It will be nice to compare notes with you.
Hello K,
i love your new photo. Is it you and your (twin?) brother? Both of you look so cute! 🙂
Thank you, E.B.!
Yes, I am the cute one on the left. My twin brother was cute, too. We were about 2-years old.
I have been in the last category. Left my partner of almost 20 years ( who was a narc or had strong narc traits – I can’t decide on this one) for a man who hoovered me after 23 years.
THe Hoover man was a lesser – I was unfaithful for 4 months – waited that my ex potential narc blow out on something stupid ( remote control) and I left to live with the lesser who told me he was leaving his wife too but only did it 3 years later when I left him. ( for another married Narc ).
Awful decision – he lived with me for free ( told his wife he had a job at 300 km so needed to move out temporarily for job purpose) – spent the money left from selling my house etc etc He never delivered on his promises so I went from a
Known semi-eggshell walking long term stable life to a complete chaotic crazy frenzy with a broke lesser ultra shallow life.
I know my infidelity streak is my wedge out – I have used it repeatedly- it’s has never proven to be a good call . This time I escaped – there was a normal guy in sight – he was so normal that he stayed 3 days ! Lol 🙂
It’s like if infidelity is my revenge . I can’t describe it – but it makes me feel that I get the upper hand –
Because they never expect that I will do it –
Comes from the left field . I emotionally disengage this way by letting this Narc trait out and then I am faithful again until the new Narc do us part 🙂
Well guess I may have now figured out where I fit in this whole thing . Oh boy…
Thank you HG
Advice being if your in this situation its the same No Contact ..you will lose either way ,in fact your even more on the back foot..do you agree Mr Tudor .
No contact is the way to go.
I think that I now see what happened with my first live-in and his infidelity.
I remember that when I confronted him, he told me (and I rejected his excuse) that the bitch sat on his lap and said, “I want to f— you”. He then said to me, “what was I supposed to do about it?”. I told him that he should have thrown that trash on the floor and told her, “I’m with Kate.”
The only reason why I was not with him enough (and as per the usual) was because I was doing two semesters of working in my field of study, which is required to graduate. We were on different schedules. He went out with his friends and I believed that he was trustworthy and sincere in his feelings for me. He had grown accustomed to my company, I would like to believe that he missed me (?) and was vulnerable to her aggressive overatures (possibly?). Who knows.
Whoever the aggressor was, he should not have cheated on me!!!!
Kate
This line is an excellent example of blame shifting.
He then said to me, “what was I supposed to do about it?”.
1. What do you expect me to do about it?
https://narcsite.com/2018/05/12/5-phrases-the-narcissist-uses-to-
blameshift/
They do not miss you; they only miss your fuel (you are easily replaceable). When you have a chance read the two examples on the links.
3. We miss you when you are gone
https://narcsite.com/2017/09/27/five-myths-about-the-narcissist/
Hi K,
Thank you for your helpful comment.
Nothing makes me more upset than infidelity! This ex (my first live-in) told me that my heart was beating like a little rabbit one time (maybe when I was questioning him about cheating?). He left me a note once that said,
“Kate you crazy emotional little girl –
– (. . .)
– don’t do anything crazy
* this note will self-destruct in 10 seconds”
He knew how to make me smile and laugh. I believe that this guy was a good person – no other “man” who I have been with has (honestly and with nothing to gain) stepped up to be a father to a child who was not his child. He also had a good sense of humor, was fun-loving, easy to get along with, worked hard and never complained about anything. He was strong, independent and reliable. This man was a good person – I remember seeing him give money to his mother and kissing her on the head. He was a loving son and a father figure to his brothers. He looked out for others.
He is one of the good men that I have known. Even so, I couldn’t at that time forgive his f—ing a disgusting piece of trash and then having the nerve to come back into OUR bed with me. He tried to apologize and get back together with me, but he could see how he had so completely ruined our relationship and left me alone. I believe that he was a Savior Empath with an infidelity streak. The bitch was the Narcissist in this triad. She saw something that she wanted – me, too! He was sexy as hell – and that is a risk that I have always been willingly to take on. I think she did me a favor, actually. Otherwise, my son would not be here!!
I was absolutely crushed, making me completely unprepared and vulnerable when my ex-husband appeared in my life. He has hurt me worse than anyone, ever. Somehow, my ex-husband convinced me that the traits of my first live-in were his – and completely wiped my memory clean of him. I am now thinking of my first live-in and seeing who he was – and how complex of a person (good and bad).
Infidelity. It literally makes me shake. I do not cheat. I expect whoever is my partner to live by the same standards. If they can’t, the mere sight of them makes me violently repulsed. That is the absolute cut-off for me. THEY ARE DONE. I AM GONE.
When my high school boyfriend cheated on me with my “best friend”, I took him back and got revenge by returning the favor in kind. This only happened because he was a Mid-Ranger and convinced me to leave a new and happy relationship and give him another chance.
Freshman year college, I had a wonderful empathic boyfriend, who I introduced to a “friend” who decided she wanted him for herself. She got me to go to a frat party, told me that my boyfriend had cheated on me, got me drunk and found a guy for me to kiss all night so that my boyfriend would find out. He would have forgiven me, but I was so ashamed of myself that I couldn’t be with him – and he was fantastic.
When this first live-in cheated on me, three of his friends asked me out and I went out with each of them in turn (just to humiliate him). Oddly, the last one seemed in love with me (??) and wanted me to marry him.
This partially tells you who I AM – I broke up with the guy who wanted to marry me BEFORE going out on a first date with my ex-husband. The guy was offering to buy me any ring I wanted, build me a house, have me get pregnant right away because he knew that I wanted children and I would never have to work a day in my life – he actually said all of that! He also said that he knew that I didn’t love him, but that I would grow to love him. I thought, “huh??”
I only am with one man at a time. Period. Any man who can’t keep up – is gone!!! This makes me nauseated. I have had opportunities to cheat on boyfriends and these narcissistic asses said, “you’re saying NO to ME?!!”. During many years and many break-ups and reunions, with my ex-husband, I was targeted by two Narcissists (Mid-Rangers) who opened my eyes to my ex’s vileness and they convinced me to leave my ex and start a relationship with them. I do not cheat. I end one relationship before beginning another. My ex-husband convinced me twice (he is a Narcissist) to leave different boyfriends when I was happy. He could always get me to leave absolutely anyone, at any time.
I truly am a Narc Magnet and that includes women “friends”. I don’t understand why cheaters always want to come back! I don’t understand cheating, and I don’t understand lying.
Cheating makes me so completely repulsed, disgusted, nauseated, angry, etc. I can put up with a lot of things (NOT physical violence), but this is an absolute NO – a narcissist would find this a fun challenge, I suppose, but an empathic man would say, “Of course”.
I never believed that my ex-husband cheated on me and to this day, have no reason to believe that he did (other than the fact that he is a Narcissist). For OVER EIGHT YEARS, our divorce was left open by him (he needed to file the next paper) and I remained FAITHFUL to him. I finally forced its finalization after this long wait. I was without a man for all of those years by choice. I truly loved him and only him. I had hope and waited, wanting our family to be together. THAT IS WHAT FIDELITY LOOKS LIKE.
My grandmother was faithful to her deceased husband (and didn’t have to be) for thirty years. She set the example. She showed me what kind of a woman that I wanted to be. I watched. I listened. I paid attention.
Fidelity truly is the heart of the matter for me.
Sorry for the extra-long comment and THANK YOU, HG for making it possible for me to see and understand all of that, which was not possible without you and your fabulous work!!! I would certainly understand if you do not want to post my essay..
Kate
So youre on the fence about this cheating thing?
Haha I’m teasing. I do have a serious question though:
Why would it be viewed as a good thing or noble for your Grandmother (or anyone) to deny herself intimacy with anyone for 30 years after he had passed? That seems a bit extreme. Maybe she (and others as I am not limiting this to your Grandmother) just dont enjoy intimacy but it comes off as remaining faithful to their memory? I dare say you wouldnt find many men doing that lol. Give them a little rub and bring a casserole and youre soon sharing seniors discount on an early bird breakfast.
Hi Narc Angel,
When I read HG’s “Holy Grail”, it made me think of my grandfather. He died about two years before my parents married (my father moved fast on this wounded, grieving woman). My grandfather died at the age of 56 (?). My grandmother would always have stories about him for me (I seemed to be the only one who wanted to hear them), some were her favorites and I heard them over and over. She had a saying that I can see and hear her say now and always, “No man can fill his shoes”. Every photograph shows how loving and close they were. I had hoped to achieve that myself, but it has eluded me.
I thought that my grandmother was the most kind, sweet, dignified woman that I have ever seen. I can only strive to be like her. I found her love and loyalty for her husband to be exemplary. They were lucky to have found one another.
You are welcome, Kate
No question about it, you are an empath (traits: love devotee and fidelity) and you attract narcissists left, right and center, like a magnet. Based on your comments about your first live-in, I suspect that he may have been a narcissist because I don’t think that is how a Saviour empath would behave. I could be wrong, though.
The Golden Period is so powerful that it erased my ULN just like your first live-in.
“Somehow, my ex-husband convinced me that the traits of my first live-in were his – and completely wiped my memory clean of him’
Cheaters want to come back for the fuel, that is why they cheat and lie and why your first live-in had the nerve (no shame/accountability) to come back. They are fuel addicts.
Your ex-husband left the divorce open (closure denied) so he could keep hoovering you for both positive and negative fuel and you held on, loved him and had hope (tenacity, empath trait) for 8 years. Damn, he chose wisely! You are full of fuel, traits and residual benefits.
I didn’t mind your essay at all and keep reading. The logic really helps you sort through the emotional thinking and you certainly don’t want another narcissist in your life again; they just suck the life right out of you.
Thank you, K, for your kind words and support!!
My pleasure, Kate!
HG I was the Dirty Little Secret https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThL-QRLrYOU
NO matter how many stories HG tells us or advise or people sharing their letters, NARCs are not going away. They pick human-beings for their drug addiction….They hurt us with intent…They do not have a humanity switch….They are evil empty soulless beings…..WHY are NARCS Here HG Tudor????? To show us the evil in this world???? What is the reason you exist??? I was the Narc. and his main supply Dirty Little Secret. HG that video sickened me sooooo much when I found out he was a narcissist. I was now far game for the Narc. and the main supply to play games with. One weekend they were drunk and I did not know they were together and they were texting me very mean things. So I wrote a story……Of Me being their dirty little secret of him as a cheater and a liar and his main supply girlfriend is fraud. So I sent this story with a sexy text message he sent me with the date, from him showing his number, as someone took the photo of my cell phone. Anyone could call the number and hear his voice. So I sent it to her the main supply 2 brothers and 8 friends through private messages of FB. With in an hour they were calling me yelling…Oh did I mention they were away for the weekend celebrating her B-day 🙂 But at that time I thought I was the other woman. NOT one of his many women of victims. Anyways, many women have come forward on outing sites to share their story. So maybe people didn’t believe or know the truth. BUT there was so much evidence of his house and life, only someone close could know of him. SO I PLANTED the seed in these people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYL4bkdwuUo
HG thank you. This is a great article. The clarity this brings about the empaths narc streaks. I recognise it in me during the relationship but also after (almost) recovery the learning from the experience has lingered. I recognise now the anger and hurt and humiliation have subsided, It has eventually brought out my narc traits for the good. I put myself first. I go into some deals with a what’s in it for me approach. I think I look after myself better now and I acknowledge my ambitious nature instead of suppressing it. I do less good deeds that submerge me or would damage my feelings.
I remain an empath at the core and I don’t suppress that.
I still stand up for the under dog but in a less needy way. I no longer need recognition for doing the right thing. I can separate my self from them now instead of feeling their pain all the time.
A terrible lesson I’d have preferred not to have.
I think in some ways it has done me good. Or is that just the empath in me? Weird.
Can anyone else relate to that?
I’m still developing my thoughts around this perspective.
I felt the greed, the envy, the emptiness he projected onto me. But my empathetic traits are stronger, I prefer not to feel that. I acknowledge and modify those feelings and put them to good use. I still trust but with caution and caveats. The sexual desire remains though. And the balance between excitement and thrill of new and DLS arrangements against normal monogamy is a difficult one. Not that I’ve had an opportunity. I’m abstaining at the moment partly through choice partly lack of opportunity – I’m sending out wrong vibes, because I know I haven’t sorted this one out.
I’d like all that excitement plus trust, love romance and security in one person. Will I get that?
Wow still some work to do.
I’d say you got to understand yourself, your boundaries and the world better. Weldone! Go you 😇
Em, I relate. In fact, I was searching for the very answer you provided. After I went Supernova, I am a changed empath. Thank u for sharing.
Hi Anonymous you are welcome. How have you changed and why?
Hi EM. I changed like you, I’m still an empath, but I take better care of myself. I was ensnared by a Greater at a vulnerable point in my life. The best change that came out of my ensnarement (I escaped) was that I can better ‘spot’ narc or narc traits in people. I used to trust people first until they proved to be untrustworthy. Now, I am not so trusting initially and am overly scrupulous. I don’t know if this change in me is a good think or a bad thing???
I feel ‘on edge’ and uncomfortable around others now. Hypersensitive. I hope that eventually it subsides and I can moderate as feel I went from one extreme to another! This is just one example.
Why? Because ‘my’ Greater ended up keeping me literally captive and sexually assaulting me. Having experienced that kind of helplessness and fear has resulted in my being in therapy, taking antidepressant, pills a night to help with my nightmares. Changed my life.
But I am a survivor. I think it is a shame that I walk away from most people I meet, male and female, due to the hypersensitivity and constantly being on-guard! Cheers to HG!
Very interesting article HG. It makes a lot of sense to me when you speak of the various kinds of narcissistic “strands” an empathic person could have. While the strand of infidelity may be the black streak in an otherwise white empath, I can see that there may be other kinds of strands too.
As always, your ability to tease out and bring to the light these psychological undercurrents and the “push and pull” effects of these emotional energies is quite something. After reading this article, you have made it much clearer to me, so thank you.
Reading this article made me think of projection and how it has a powerful effect on the dynamics of these kinds of relationships. While the dirty empath may have an infidelity streak, the narcissist is very good at honing in on that, and manipulating the relationship through projection so that the empath is left feeling and holding the “guilt”.
For instance, take an extreme example, like say, the consequences of a woman accusing a man of rape. In cases that aren’t clear cut, it is often the woman who is required to “prove” that she was dressed appropriately, not alone in a dangerous environment, not drunk, not behaving provocatively, not “asking for it” etc etc. Meanwhile, the man is (often, not always) clearly the stronger, more powerful one who can easily dominate the woman physically and is driven by urges that only he can ultimately control. Yet, the pervading social attitude – or projection – is that the woman is somehow the one who can “control” the situation.
This is an extreme example, but it just makes me think of how much projection is used in different and more subtle situations. The “projection” of guilt, blame and responsibility can be so ingrained and “expected” that it goes unnoticed.
It’s all sexist BS —men are the ones creating all the sexual and spiritual oppression with their selfish immaturity. You can love more than one person, partnership is based on more than sex. Sex doesn’t have to ruin lives.
Hi /iroll,
Without going too far into it, I agree with you about the sexual and spiritual oppression which is caused by male attitudes. I think there’s a lot of narcissistic elements such as entitlement, projection, black and white thinking, and self-centredness in the general social concept of masculinity.
This is a big subject which I don’t really want to dive into, so I’m just going to leave it there.
@Wiser,
Yes, it’s big. I get that sex can be used as a weapon and saying “it shouldn’t be” doesn’t change how things are.
Sexual and spiritual oppression has never affected me and I am not sure what it means. I have never had anyone oppress me on either of those two issues. I feel free to do what I want to do just as a man would.
There is also this discussion about men and their sexual conquests and attitudes towards sex. One factor women often forget when debating rape and men’s sexual overtures is the science of men’s biology, including their testosterone levels and drive to pair-bonding. Some more than others. It is a woman’s duty to teach their sons civilized behavior. What is civilized? It is a standard of a reasonable person’s behavior, restraint and one’s endurance of another’s behavior as a consequence. It appears that many fall below that standard and below intelligence as the world turns left and ‘progresses’. The woman must be educated to know what and how she educates her offspring. An educated father has a vital role too. That is why a well balanced family life matters in a well-oiled society. If those (unknowingly) taught behaviors are emphatic or narcissistic in nature then factor them in but don’t forget the biological difference between men and women. Narcissism is not always bad, it instinctively permits one’s engagement of boundaries. So if you feel sexually and spiritually oppressed does it beg the notion that you have little or no boundaries to assert yourself?
I hate infidelity. I believe the man I am seeing is mine and mine only. He ought not to look at, touch nor think about another woman. Noticed how my “ought not to” turns him into a beta male? Knowing science and the general rule of reality imposing such a harsh rule is impossible and I definitely want the alpha male. Therein lies the dichotomy and one needs to roll with the punches of life’s innuendos.
Consider this, if a person cheats on you, oppresses you, makes you feel uncomfortable you have the option of invoking boundaries, standards appropriate for you and leaving (unless you are living in an oppressive country).
Catherine
I’m not sure what sexual or spiritual oppression is either. No clue if I’ve ever experienced them.
I was taught everything to do with sex and my body was shameful, to be hidden and never discussed, and that has always had a very oppressive effect on me. But that was my mother’s doing.
I really don’t understand how you all mean “spiritual oppression.” Spiritual like religion or like your self-concept? No one could ever oppress my religious spirituality because that is a link I feel with the world around me that’s outside of anyone else. If you mean self-concept, though, men and women both can devastate a woman’s self-concept thru ridicule.
Hi Windstorm,
I guess “spiritual oppression” is a term that can be interpreted in a number of different ways by different people.
For myself personally, I see it in a practical “daily living” sense, rather than in a religious or self-concept sense. What I mean by daily living is to have lived or worked in a male-dominated environment and been in a position where the men around you either outnumbered you or had more power than you did. In these situations, the reactions, responses, expectations and/or standard daily behaviours of those men are such that women generally have to subdue, or modify their “spirit”, or beliefs, likes & dislikes, aspirations and expectations in order to make their relationships with those men run more smoothly or to reduce the likelihood of ruffling feathers or having conflicts. In these environments, the men generally feel entitled to create an atmosphere or culture that is more male-oriented in nature and expect that the women in that group will simply follow suit.
For example, in an office environment that is male dominated, there may be a general unspoken expectation that the women there will make the coffee, answer the telephones, greet visitors at reception and organise office celebrations etc. If a qualified woman decides she would prefer to chair a meeting rather than organise the catering for that meeting, it is not readily accepted or condoned by most of the men, even though she may actually be better at chairing meetings than most of the men there.
That’s my interpretation of the term, anyway.
The Second Rape is the epitome of projection and blame shifting.
She wanted it. (projection)
3. You caused this to happen. (blame shift)
I find this article to be a difficult read, every time I see it. However maybe it’s difficult because it has a direct link to my situation, alongside the married target article. These were the two pieces of information that truly opened up with a bright spot light, an understanding for me. The majority of information from most sources, others who discuss and advise upon narcissism, is usually heavily directed at partners, marriages, family, and some work colleagues.
I think HG is the only person who has even attempted to cover the over types of relationships with narcissists in quite the same detail. All the different types of people that narcissists link to and what they provide the narcissist. The seamingly insignificant links to people on shelves, people who are dirty secrets, people who they hide, people left in the shadows. People who can not discuss their predicament with anyone, people who have much to loose, people staying quiet through fear of exposure. I don’t think I would have understood quite what the hell was going on without articles like this. Through harsh truths, eyes become wide open.
I think this may be why I came to narcsite, I felt a little more understood, a little less judged! A little more human … I have given more of myself with true honesty and analytical reflection, here on this blog, then I have given anywhere else, or to anyone else. I appreciate how people on the blog have enabled me to do this.
I still struggle relating to the elements of the DE, I can’t relate to the 3 option criteria as an absolute. All of the other cadres have altogether positive attributes,even if some present as “weak” to others. The other cadres appear to have light and positive traits running throughout.
The DE is the cadre that is presented as dirty, has a negative under tone, a black streak. It appears to be the dammed cadre… ( is is the MMR of the narcissist cadres? Worst one?)
Who wants to be slapped with this label … Well I guess I have been slapped!
With knowledge and understanding, I can acknowledge this trait, this part of me. I refuse to see it as the whole me, that this is what I am from now to eternity, because it is not!
In my opinion the DE infidelity is a trait, that has been unsurfaced from the shadow, raised up by the scratching and proding of the Narcissist. I need to accept it and reintegrate it, so I can have more control over it now, so it does not come out without my real knowledge or understanding and control again.
I had those moments of “why the hell did I do that? That’s not who I am”. I now know it’s the dirty empath in me and she is a bitch!! I need to get a lasso and rein her in …
Quasi,
I relate to much of what you say here and you have articulated it so well! Personally I can say this streak in me is very strong as my marriage is quite strong and the sex was still good….yet I still mutually seduced my narc and to this day have not felt more than a minor twinge of guilt.
I agree it takes a good hard look at ourselves to know “why”..,I’m still working on it myself. As you mention it can be difficult because it’s not something we can openly discuss with others due to the secretive nature b
I totally relate to you. My marriage is great but yet why did I get seduced by/seduced my narc. I had my times of insecurities that made me weak. And for the lack of guilt, he told me that as long as my hubby doesn’t know what really happened he won’t be hurt. I think I adapted that view from him. But in the end it’s enough that I am the only one hurt from the relationship with the narc. It’s karma I guess.
I’m still learning about myself and why I was a target of my narc, but I’m happy that I found this blog so I can see the stories of others and feel less lonely in this journey.
Hi supernova DE,
My marriage is also strong and full to the literal brim with love, he is a good man.
I feel a ridiculous amount of guilt but I’m going a little be easier on myself.
My streak appears to be very strong also, but not for just anyone … it appears to be reserved for narcissists. I hope I don’t come across anymore !
I wouldn’t say we mutually seduced each other, I wanted a friend, but allowed more, and chose more when the option was before me.
Working on incorporating all my light and dark streaks to make a whole swirl of a person who hopefully doesn’t mess up again!
Thank you supernova DE.
I really appreciate you sharing that with me, and the knowing that there are others who have experienced this.
It feels less isolating being able to share This kind of thing with people who understand.
Quasi
You are not alone; I am a DEMB. I think the Victim is the worst Cadre and the School that seems to be despised quite a bit is the midrange.
Thanks K – he was a victim middle mid ranger. I was caught by the worst so maybe I’m the worst too … lol .. just messing !
You are welcome, Quasi
Ha ha ha…when I was a teenager I was ensnared by an upper lesser narc and he was hideous!
Quasi, If it’s any consolation, many, many years ago I was swept off my feet by a wild man who came out of the blue. Someone I had just met and actively tried to avoid because the attraction was so strong and I was married. But he targeted me (literally found me up a dusty road in a small village in a developing country) and it felt like a wind picked me up and carried me away. Long story short – he wasn’t a narc (maybe BPD) but my marriage imploded and wild man eventually ended up in jail (nothing to do with me).
My marriage didn’t end because of wild man, but it certainly did not help. It was like I busted my way out. But it is not a pattern, it is the only time I ever did that and for a long time I consoled myself that we didn’t sleep together right away, so I didn’t technically ‘cheat’ (yup, I know how people convince themselves of this).
Ironically, very early on my narc inadvertently broke my 17 year silence with wild man due to something he mentioned without knowing a thing about it. I think narc was put in my path for a reason. I had not been able to face what I did or why I did it all those years ago – letting myself be swept away, not standing on my own two feet. But I saw with narc that I was his ‘wild man’ and I was him, and it helped me to understand my own personality as a risk taker and adrenaline junkie with narc traits. I have been that way since I was a kid, I almost died when I was a teenager, and I do not consider myself a DE for what I did so many years ago – I am the main victim of my ‘choices.’
You are not JUST your marriage, and the DE trait is a manifestation of something more complicated. It is not a pattern and it is not the whole you. You are probably on track to a solution when you say that you have to accept it and reintegrate it. I would say embrace it because it doesn’t mean that you have no light or positive traits. It means you are a complex and interesting person with a meaningful life. Your narc was put in your path for a reason too.
Thank you SMH, I totally agree with you.
Although mine did not sweep me off my feet, he embedded himself as a friend that I very much wanted first. I liked the attention he gave me, I liked that he found me attractive. But I wanted it both ways, I wanted him to want me but I wanted him to be my friend and not do anything to ruin it … literally two sides of a coin. Maybe that is also indicative of the duality of the mind, and the streaks and traits in our personalities trying to fight for dominance. Very contrary and not very fair.
When I was intimate with him, I would have been quite happy not doing so, and just being with him.
Percentage wise it was 20% lust / wanting, ( he was a good kisser) and 50% care for him, and 30% obligation, in a ( I let it go this far, he expects more)
This was stupidity and definitely the DE streak.
I agree that I was meant to meet him, he came into my life for a reason. I have learnt a great deal and they were lessons that I needed.
SMH I saw him today !
I have been out with good friends at a charity football game for prostrate cancer. It was in my home town, the other end of town. We decided to go for a drink also, it was not the place he normally goes. He was there at the bar. My heart sank and then, went mental with Adrenalin. I didn’t look over, I just walked past him and left. The friends that i was with said that he looked very uncomfortable. But I didn’t look.
It’s his birthday tomorrow.
My ET thought to message him, I told my ET to shut up! So I’m not going to .
I do feel like i have an inner monologue going on with stuff like this.. having a battle. Lol
Anyway thank you lovely, you always have pretty awesome things to say and I appreciate you sharing you story with me too.
Quasi, DO NOT message him. LOL. I almost saw my wild man a few months ago but we both decided it would be better not to. 17 years have passed. I think when one has such intense chemistry with someone – whether it is physical, psychological or emotional – it never ever goes away. It is on a different level from ‘normal’ chemistry.
My narc didn’t sweep me off my feet either (that was the wild one). In fact my first impressions of him were pretty neutral. He wasn’t my type! But my gosh that chemistry was strong. After I escaped he started messaging me even though I had asked him not to, and would insert sex into the conversation. At first, I would leave when he did that. But then I started doing it too, in part because I wanted to manipulate him. I even sent him erotica I had written. We were headed back to square one but I pulled a fast one and told him I was kidding and that chemistry did not mean there was anything worth salvaging between us. I’m not sure I meant it because I am not sure I know. Does such intense chemistry mean anything? I have no idea. In any case, your adrenalin rush means that there is something strong there. Do not message yours. It is a slippery slope…
Now I see chemistry as an alarm. Something is wrong – delicious danger – I went back to that chemistry after 23 years and it was perfectly the same – my sister said that physically I went back with same physical and energy as when I was 14 and with this guy . She was rightly freaking out – telling me that something Is wrong with this relation.
I went to hell – he was a lesser and they are the worst because they are dirty and muddy and not bright at all.
So I now stay away from the chemistry shit – it’s a trap to no healthy boundaries – to basic instincts – to illusions . It is a golden door open on misery.
Good line, OMJ. A golden world open on misery. I think it develops out of anxiety and instability – an acute stress response that’s blinding.
Just to add, I have definitely had devious thoughts about hoovering my own narc…
SMH,
Not to worry I’m not going to.
I’m aware that I mean nothing to him, and my sentiments of good wishes will be just as much.
I also just do not want to be in his world again, no matter what little bit of care for him remains. I can’t be in his darkness.
I really like talking with you SMH thank you, for your fabulous words of wisdom as always – it has meant a lot to me.
Quasi, I enjoy talking to you too. I think we are cut from the same cloth. I don’t want to be in my narc’s world either – he’s too foreign to me now and honestly his world never interested me that much. He did, but that’s because he engineered a bubble for us. When I first discovered his world – the one he kept hidden from me – I was like, oh, no wonder he’s bored :). I still don’t trust that chemistry thing, though. One little feeler and boom – back in the bubble.
It becomes a fine line….we want a friend we can confide in, and sometimes it’s so nice to have someone “separate” from our regular life. You can bitch to them about another friend or hubby or even your kids and there is less chance of judgement etc. It also means we are likely to divulge things that make it easier for them to target. And as HG says they can sniff out the infidelity streak pretty readily. We are not blameless but also have to forgive ourselves to put it in the past.
I am so curious about how others in this category realized their other man was a narc. It took me three years, and many puzzlements over his weird behavior.
I can relate to being a DE, but I feel like the narcissist when it comes to sex. It might as well be myself.
Hrmmm. Food for thought. I believe I am somewhat represented by this theory. I battle with the role of sex in the human condition. Sometimes it seems so ridiculous-like it shouldn’t even matter that much-other times I see it as sacred. But the power and draw of lust other times is SO incredible. It cancels out all reason. It definitely did when I left my relationship with a very good person to get entangled with the narc. I think I sometimes envy that the narcissists have no confusion over their aims. Fuel- whatever it takes. It’s almost seductive-the simplicity of it.
I always remember a certain episode of the show “6 feet under “where the Father has died and the sons discover he has this little apartment across town where apparently he’s been meeting a woman for many many many years. Like it was his own Las Vegas -what happened in that room stayed in that room and in a way there’s something very seductive about that but at the same time extremely tragic. Arggg.. life . Interesting.
Thanks HG -❤️