Extreme
We do not do things by halves. There is no magnolia adorning the walls where we live. Muzak does not play in the background and we never choose to eat vanilla ice cream. If it is neutral, if it is middle of the road and if it is sat on the fence we do not want to know. If it is bland you can forget about it, if something is inoffensive it is of no use to us and words such as unobjectionable, unprejudiced and unbiased are pointless.
We are not interested in fair or equitable and indifference is loathed by us. If you are uncommitted, open-minded, even-handed, detached and unaligned you are not performing as we want you to. Anything which smacks of being straight down the middle holds no interest for us because everything that we want has to be extreme. We want it ice cold or burning hot. Take our ignited fury for instance. When you pass comment on us or do something which is a criticism and you do so in an unemotional, detached and straightforward manner you may as well drive a spear into our hearts as this criticism wounds and burns. To counter it, our fury will ignite and then we retaliate by adopting the extreme. We may lash out at you, pouring scorn and labelling you with a medley of offensive and nasty words, designed to tear into you and cause you to sob. We may adopt the other extreme and provide you with our haughty and stand-offish cold fury, the icy glare and cold shoulder turned towards you. We live and flourish by extremes. There is never any settling for average. It is either feast or famine.
In the beginning, we must create a deluge of false affection as we lavish you with compliments and praise. The words come easily and these softly spoken or enthused exclamations (even our method of delivery adopts an extreme) are poured over you so you are drenched with our affection and love. You are drowning in desire, swamped by our seduction and buried beneath an avalanche of affection. You are given the expensive gifts, nothing cheap, nothing crass or tatty, only the finest and most delightful items are selected for you. You are regaled with tales of our achievements, our excellence and our brilliance. I was not player of the year once but four times. I am not just the highest biller in the department but the entire firm. My car is top of its range. I only ever eat organic, none of that fast processed food for me. My handkerchiefs are silk not cotton. I have three toothbrushes for morning, noon and night. I use four different skin products when I wash in the morning. You read War and Peace in a week? I did it in three days. I don’t just text message you once or twice each day, no, what would be the point of that? You receive a text tsunami. Impressed? You ought to be. That is how special you are and how sensational I am by being able to ping text after text your way and still be as hard-working as I am.
I don’t obey the speed limit, that is for ordinary people. When it is time to go out and party, you will always notice when my entourage and I have arrived. Just watch that bar bill escalate. Why have one partner when five can be juggled? Why gamble a hundred pounds when a thousand will win much more? Five star? I want five-star superior? I am the five-star combatant – the Admiral of the Fleet, Field Marshal and Marshal of the Air Force. Turn it up to eleven. Why a dozen guests? Make it two dozen. Let’s make a show, let’s make a splash, let’s push it further. I lead a life of excess. I engage in extreme behaviours. I never just talk, I either shout and rage or seductively whisper. I don’t get a cold, I have pneumonia and you had better look after me whilst I have it.
Not only do I cause you to soar to the heights, I also take you to the extreme depths. I freeze you out. I lambast you with acidic words. I take it away and send you tumbling towards rock bottom. Down, downwards I will cast you. I don’t just want you to cry, I want you to wail and scream. I don’t want you irritated by my behaviour, I want you to be angry, blowing a gasket, beside yourself with annoyance. I do not want you to be sad, I want you to be desolate. I do not want you to be unhappy, I want you to be mired in misery. High or low, it does not matter as long as it is not in the middle.
Why am I like this? Why does my kind and me never settle for okay or fine, but have to take it to outstanding or terrible? We do so because extreme means special. Extreme means superior. Extreme means you will take notice of me. I do not just fade into the background. I am not beige. I do not sink into a grey sea. I am impenetrable darkness and I am glorious light. I am not a steady monotone, for I am the heavy, resonant and sonorous bass and the tinkling angelic bells.
I am like this because nobody remembers the middle man, the middle ranking and the go-between. Neutral is nothing. I must be noticed. I must be admired. I must shock and awe. I must stand out, turn heads and be the topic of conversation, good or bad, it matters not so long as I am recognised. I must provoke, stimulate and arouse so I am always noticed and paid attention to. I must always take it as far as possible and the further again. Extreme is the only option available to me. How else am I going to fill this emptiness?
52 thoughts on “Extreme”
Vent Your Spleen! (Please see the Rules in Formal Info)
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Hi Windstorm! I just saw your comments back regarding JN and his new girlfriend and I could not access the replay button so I hope you get this. You have absolutely no reason to be sorry. I completely understand why you thought he was bluffing just like my best friend did after it’s never been a valid reason in the past when he used the line he started dating someone to get serious with to pull away from me.
I don’t want to come across as callous and not feeling anything towards his new girlfriend. There is nothing I can possibly do to prevent what will or will not happen to her in their relationship. That is not my burden to undertake when I’m still trying to heal myself.
I appreciate your positive vibes and will take them any time!! I think for anyone, there will always be that nagging thought no matter how often you hear they can’t change, that there will be the one person who comes along that manages to secure the whole happy relationship package.
On a good note, I have gone over 100 days now with absolutely no communication with JN which is the longest I’ve ever gone. Notice I did not say NC because HG would take me to task for checking on her Twitter a few times. So Fiiinnnneeee, my bad, yet curiosity ruled on that. lol But as far as him, he is deleted from my phone, blocked on all social media and I even figured out how to block emails. I even blocked her and some of his friends and family on other social media that I am active on so that I can’t get tempted to creep and also so JN can’t try to smear me to her and creep on me. I know that will ultimately help me.
You have provided so much advice and perspectives that have helped since you have been on the blog. Please don’t feel at all that you gave bad advice this time.
I guess what sickens me is the saccharin sweet love bombing he is apparently doing to her which he was propositioning me to see him a few weeks into seeing her back in February which shows his snaky dark side is still there lurking underneath. He will definitely be someone to have the Madonna / Whore complex. That I recognize in him. She’ll eventually get the family life facade and he’ll have his side DLS’s for his outlet with his deviant behavior.
Congrats on the no contact for 100 days Clarece! Can I ask you a question?
Regarding thinking they will change for that one girl – that elusive happy package, I’m struggling with that right now after love bombing. I see your strength, how have you got through?
I think this is why Codepebdent and Narcs go together . Codependents while often indecisive can also be quite extreme. Codepebdents love decisiveness of the narc and they identify with the extremes
Extremely passionate article HG and apart from the abusive part very inspirational. It would be great if this one was on YouTube as well.
Thank you and noted.
Dear HG, i spent years in a relationship with a narc. I understood after a while that i have in front of me someone who is,”not normal”. It took me a months and months of research to discover that it was NDP. Since at that point, i was so hurt and felt helpless, and ashamed for what he had already done to me, (before i met him i was strong unteachable women, in every way above his league, and he made a crawling creature who felt worthless ,) Instead of running away, and due to my deep deep desire for vengeance, i decide to stay. To have my revenge. Since a am very patient and highly intelligent, i stayed, and stayed..planning and analyzing him, and finding the place to hit most..Bottom line is that i did it, my vengeance was sweet, a lot of blood was spilled, and it felt really good. And let me tell you, in addition to all you are writing, that cutting them off is not the worst thing NDP can feel. There are cruel ways, and there is a way to make them feel pretty much as you have once felt. Worthless.
Dear HG Tudor
I found your blog after a years of reading on this matter, plus a full year of ps.therapy…Looking for explanations, but it always came down to this..This.. Your angle. The questions that no one could answer but NR himself. Sadly for me, everything you wrote is light version of torture comparing to whom i have been involved with. The worst thing from being with NS is loving one, and missing him, regardless of the damage he had done. The gold phase is really gold..The idiots like me still believe that it was real. And cant handle the idea that we werent loved. You know, i could have died thinking he did love me. Anyhow..thank you.
You are welcome.
I too have read mountains of material been to therapy etc Yes this blog helps in ways a therapist simply cannot because they are not a narcissist.
Why I would say to readers is trust your instincts. If you suspect Narcissism you are likely correct. Trust what you are told here. You can read mountains and mountains of material but the answer is always the same. He is a Narcissist. That really is all you need to know and accept. I realize easier said than done
Extreme is why you are so addictive. When I don’t talk to my narc for days I start to crave the extreme. I even crave the extreme abuse. I’m in fear of a future without it. Your kind has created an emptiness inside of your victims like your own emptiness. You blame us for things going stale but I blame your kind. After years of cheating, lying, using and blindsiding nothing is a surprise anymore. “Oh you banged my best friend? That’s nice. Shall we have pizza for dinner tonight?” NUMB! What happened to the creativity?
So much is said about the only cure being no contact and leaving forever. I fear no contact like I fear death. I don’t know whats going to happen on the other side.
Is there happiness after the Narc? Has anyone reached this point? I need hope. I’ve become too comfortable in this numb state.
Mercy, yes there is happiness afterwards; to me it’s a different flavoured happiness to what went previously, but it is happiness all the same. X
Thank you for your reply Blackunicorn, that is good to know. I haven’t talked to him in a week. This is the norm though. The difference is this time there’s no fear that he’ll never come back. After all these years I know what formula of fuel to provide if I want him to come back. Its peaceful right now but so boring. I miss the roller coaster .
Hi Mercy, I missed the roller coaster too in the early days, everything else felt painfully flat and boring, but who they are is eventually the rope they hang themselves by, and what gives you your freedom. It gets to a point where you can second guess them, but even that is boring eventually too. It’s the only time they live up (down!!) to your expectations, and once you “see” them for what they are, it reduces the after effects of everything. Then you just want to scrape them off and get on with your life. X
Yes there is until another one comes along. It’s took me years to get over the return of the first one but I did get over it and then along came number 2 but yes you will meet someone else hopefully not a Narc and you will remember this pain but it won’t consume you and you will feel happiness again
I am currently stuck in the “ I know I have to get out of this” circle. I have changed some things. Day by day. Guess it really won’t stick until I am ready
Agreed Mercy. Perpetually numb is a whole level of purgatory to be stuck in and no fun. I’m still stuck in some ways.
Do narcs create the emptiness inside of empaths or do empaths already have that void and thats what causes them to fall for the narcs facade, and once having experienced the narcs extremes, crave it as something they did not realize they had or could be filled? That they previously put it down to a boredom or restlessness that they assumed everyone felt until they experienced the addiction to the extremes.
I suggest that empaths already have the void and the narc creates the addiction to filling it.
NarcAngel
I agree. I’ve certainly always had a void. Somebody said the other day (think it was K) that we need to feel that we matter to someone. I think that may be the cause of the void – at least it is in my case.
When we grow up having it reinforced often that there’s something wrong with us – that we’re not good enough, we subconsciously start feeling that we don’t matter to others and the void begins. In walks a narc mirroring what we’ve always wanted to believe and suddenly that void is filled with euphoria and vindication that we really are the person we always wanted to be.
NA I totally agree with you. My whole life I thought I was happy and content, but there was always this void in me, I couldn’t quite point out what it was. I also often felt differently than my siblings. Sometimes I would engage in some over the edge behaviour like using drugs, taking risks in my professional life and other risky behaviour. But nothing made me feel so alive as my encounter with the narc. Even when devaluation started (which I didn’t know at that time), I fought so hard back and on some occasions it felt oh so good, I even enjoyed to provoke him just to engage in this adrenaline filled behaviour. I know now that it’s not healthy, but it sure made me feel alive.
Interesting question Narc Angel. I don’t think all empaths have that void. There are many who have healthy boundaries and self esteem. They would put up with narc manipulations for about 2 seconds and check out. I think it’s with the individual’s background, DNA, if early childhood trauma was experienced, etc.
I’ve always looked to Carl Jung’s theories that a person will keep replaying a situation that is unresolved in their subconscious psyche. I think that has merit. Is it a void per say? It could be a couple different things. A trauma. A rejection. It’s a constant replay of trying to right what was once wronged.
It goes back to me saying these relationships are energy driven. They feel electrically charged with tons of chemistry and passion (which is the lust and infatuation during the golden period). If you are unaware of that being too much too soon and ignore red flags, you go along thinking it is love and people will fight for love, going back to biblical times. I think the targets have an opening to absorb the emptiness of the Narc over time. Because of how they are wired to want to share and bond with someone and thinking they are establishing intimacy. I wouldn’t say it’s boredom or restlessness in all cases. Wanting to be in a relationship is like a primal instinct for some just like it is instinct for HG to have his narcissism as a defense mechanism with his facade / construct.
Clarece
Yes, I didnt mean to suggest all empaths or that its boredom or restlessness in all cases. I do think trauma, rejection, and a constant replay of trying to right what was wronged as you point out causes a void, and there to me the narc attraction is more understandable, but there are many who say they had a great upbringing and were going along in life, all is fine minding their own business when the narc came along and swept them up. Those are the ones who I meant may have had a void but were unaware that they had one-just a feeling that something was missing and couldnt put their finger on it, until a narc came along and made everything in technicolor. Often successful people (by societys standards) will say they feel guilty for even saying they are unfulfilled because they have a great job, great family, and should have no complaints but theres that niggling feeling……
I also wonder about the different stages of womens lives that cause us to override logical thinking and make us susceptible when the red flags are flying. The most potent during child bearing years and again when a woman is aging and may feel diminished or ignored in society. These are where I think the narc is good at identifying a void but I do not give them the power of creating the void or emptiness – just exploiting it.
You honed in on the child bearing years creating an opening for the Narc to exploit. Very intuitive. Absolutely. Sex and children change everything. And in the landscape of having a secure facade, a stable family life seals that deal perfectly. It seemed to be what kept your mother tethered to your monster Stepdad too, on the other side where some victims are in such a fog, they are bound by expectations that it’s better to stay together for kids rather than tear a family apart.
Yes, wholeheartedly, the Narc exploit older single women still wanting children, or keeping their partners bound to them because of shared children, or using it against a partner when one becomes pregnant and they want o accountability or responsibility in raising the child. What a landmine of opportunity.
Windstorm,
I have a void as well. He fills that void. Until he goes away and it is then empty. Repeat cycle.
I think that we all (narcs and empaths) start with the same core wound…which is NOT MATTERING to the people who are caring for us when are young and forming our psyches. The empath goes down the road of seeking external validation and being vulnerable, the narcissist forms the shell and turns off emotions. It’s opposite sides to the coin, but comes from the same place. And this is why we “fit” together all too well later on in life. The empath wants to matter desperately and to fill the void from childhood, and the narc mirrors to make it feel so. The narc also wants to matter desperately and has their own chasms to fill, but goes about gaining the power/validation differently.
We’re drawn to their darkness because it strangely feels comfortable and familiar. They are drawn to our hope and spirit that was drained from them.
Clarece,
Good ol’ repetition compulsion! Replaying those unresolved traumas, hoping THIS time will be when we finally get it right. When this has happened in my life, it’s like a force pulling me over the edge of a cliff. My heart sinks, stomach churns, and I’m saying “don’t go there” but it feels impossible to stop, like it’s fated. Like the script was written this way, and that’s just how it is. There *is* a choice though. I think we have to get it right next time by not replaying it at all.
Mary
Hi Mary,
I don’t know how to not have the whole ordeal over the last 5 years with JN to not end up being a scenario I will eventually play out with someone else. I have all the answers I need All the knowledge. All the understanding. And I’m still so hurt now that he has now moved on his first relationship and being openly affectionate and doting to someone when all I ever was to him was a DLS. I get that the new girlfriend seriously thinks she struck gold, because I know how charming he is, plus she is getting a golden period. And I totally get how fake and superficial this is on his part. He is only loving the adoring attention pumped from a new source. I got what another reader coined as a “copper” period I think. lol One level under bronze. I’m not trying to be hung up on titles. It’s just a way to describe the situation with terminology HG uses that is understandable here across the board. If I had to go through all this pain, I should have at least gotten the full on throttle status of being an IPPS for a time. I think there is a level of dark, humiliation that is doled out to the DLS’s that makes it difficult to recover from. I’m aware of some of these things simply because he hoovered in February at the onset of this relationship to try to dangle seeing me and I know his agenda was to rub this new relationship in my face and push me off the cliff. I’m glad I saw through it and didn’t even attempt to see him. But it’s like it’s still hanging in the air over me and hasn’t dissipated yet. I’m just hoping it passes over the next several weeks
Clarece
This may just be my native skepticism of anything that comes out of a narcs mouth, but I wouldn’t trust anything he says,alludes or emplies about any other relationship. You seem to be imagining this girl having a great golden period, when there very well may not be any girl at all. Even if you know there was an actual girl in February, she may have dumped him and moved on. Narcs almost never admit this. And they almost always (in my experience) drop hints and make allusions that things are much rosier than they are.
I gave up trying to sort the lies from the truth as a child and just assume they’re at least exaggerating, if not outright lying. Even if a fourth of what they say is accurate, I’m still right 3/4 of the time. Have you ever considered trying this? Assume whatever he tells you he’s either exaggerating or making up out of whole cloth just to jerk you around and mess with you for his own dark amusement. When you think of any actual women he’s seeing, feel sorry for them being duped and all the heartache ahead of them. If you didnt even get a good golden period, why would you think they would? But my money’s on him not really having any serious women at all.
Just my opinion. Might help. It works for me. ❤️
Hi WS! You are 1/2 right in this scenario. I look back and most everything out of JN to me was lies, manipulations, embellishents… I guess I was great rehearsal material for all his future relationships.
Like you, my best friend did not believe he had a girlfriend when he said that to me in March to bail on his offer from just two weeks prior to meet in Chicago at a hotel and make things up. He had used that line 3 other times over 3 years to pull away and nothing ever came of it.
I told her something felt different about his tone though. It was more of me wanting to check my intuition, so I did some social media creeping. Sure enough, found her, and boy oh boy she blows Twitter up all about how they are progressing.
Let’s see, a few weeks back there was “When all the cheesy love songs apply to you.” Last week there was, “I’m at the point in my relationship where I can hand him the beer menu to choose for me.”
Oh and then this stellar one this week,
“When people think they don’t deserve to be loved and adored by their romantic partner, they’re so wrong. It is the best feeling!”
Yeah, she will probably crash hard if devaluation ever comes, but it is indeed much more of a golden period than I ever had. Lol
Clarece
Im very sorry that you’re in this dark place now.
I’m not going to try to give you any more advice, because our thinking seems to be so different.
I’d be feeling sorry for her, being so deluded and tricked – thinking about how devastated and confused she will be when she figures him out. I’d probably be lighting a candle and saying prayers for her and fantasizing about a big man horse-whipping JN as he writhes, crying like a baby on a sidewalk full of disinterested strangers, for being such an uncaring jerk.
But I will say that I care about you and am sending you positive energy. ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️
(And I’ll probably indulge in some horse-whipping fantasy on your behalf.)
Always your friend,
Windstorm
Hi Clarece
I do not know all of the details of your relationship with JN so am unclear as to why you were considered DLS (and if you wish to keep it that way I understand) I understood that it was after your divorce, so was he in a relationship? I believe he was younger but not married? In any case I am sorry to hear that it is still affecting you in this way.
No, JN was never in another committed relationship during the 5 years I interacted with him. He flaunted the occasional other flings he had which would send me retreating. I will not be involved with someone spoken for. Then he would always resurface weeks later and I would think it was because he did really care. I know the last 2-3 years we interacted he kept me like a genie in a bottle. None of his family or friends knew anything about me. I’d plea all the time to make plans to go places, do things. A couple times even taking the initiative to just plan something and take the pressure off of him. For example, the first year I knew him he said his family gets season tickets to the White Sox. We always had baseball banter about the Sox and Cleveland Indians. He told me he’d check into the schedule and take me to a game. The actual invite never came.
Two years later, I thought I’d just take the pressure off of him and bought 2 tickets and asked him to go. He kept saying “maybe” (which in Narc speak means no). He wouldn’t go to the game. Never even gave a firm reason why not. I threw my ticket away and never even bothered to go. Occasionally it would come up in a fight when I’d be pulling away from him and I’d point out how he can’t be seen in public with me, i.e. the White Sox Game. His response would always be why can’t I get over a game and how I repeatedly live in the past. This was fall of 2015 when I first found HG so not everything was clicking with me yet.
You know how he broadcast his new, official relationship? Took the new girlfriend to a White Sox game to meet his whole family at their opener in April.
There is no getting around when I read HG’s articles that JN always categorized me exactly how he wanted the whole time as a DLS.
“He kept saying “maybe” (which in Narc speak means no).”
Yup…I learned many a time that maybe ALWAYS means no. Also “we’ll see” means no too.
And anything involving the word “perhaps”
“Perhaps we can have a phone call….”
Perhaps = No.
It still amazes me that a simple word like “maybe” can stir up my memory like that!
Utterly true Gabbanzobean. “We’ll see” was how JN mixed it up from “maybe”. So original. Lol
Always keeping us working harder to secure whatever it was they dangled in front of us.
Clarece,
The word “utterly” used for emphasis.
You are definitely NOT alone Mercy.
I tried calling him 2 days ago and he did not answer. I did not even cry for once (I usually do). He texted me back immediately after I hung up on his voice mail and he said “Hey you, I cannot talk today but maybe I can talk tomorrow”. I replied “sure, call me tomorrow”. That was yesterday and he did not call. I am antsy and unsettled and want to try to call again. This is the battle that goes on in my mind at the moment. I crave the extreme too when I do not hear from him.
Extreme,Not My Cerebral NARCISSIST Husband No Extreme Seduction ,No Seduction At All HE,s42 ,18 Years Old Myself. , WHY Not WANT His New Virgin Baby Wife?HG WHY?SINCERELY SHARON
Extreme ,That’s It ,Not With My Cerebral NARCISSIST Husband No Extreme Seduction No Seduction Of Any Kind. WHY? HG He Was42 ,IWas 18 ,HG DON’T They Want The Young Virgin That They Choose To AMARRY??SHARON
As expressed in my 23 years of personal chronicles is what I refere to as ” THE PENDULUM AFFECT ” …
HG, I’m curious on your take on how a normal would act in the beginning of a relationship, or during dating vs how a Narcissist will act?
See the article about how to flush out the narcissist.
Makes sense. One day he is “sick” over something and his head is pounding. The next day he is overjoyed and happy at this new found miracle he never thought would happen, the very same thing that made him sick the prior day.
Good grief I even had a text message once that read “we will have dinner and catch up with one another properly” (i.e. “we are done having sex”)…..and then a few texts later it was “please tell me you’ll suck my…..”
Make up your goddamn mind. Oh that’s right you can’t. You must contradict and be extreme.
Saint Piano.
Dear Mr Tudor,
This piece is a fabulous piece, as with all your works, but this was a great read. The three toothbrushes ….. and 4 skin products just for the morning … heavens to Betsy! I bet there’s a clean towel for everyday!
Silk handkerchiefs … no issues? I bet you use silk in the bedroom sheets, pjs, underware … haha
You have way too much money 💰… 🤑
Red or green no inbetween
Haha 🤣
Thank you, I enjoyed it immensely, explains you a lot
I agree Bubbles. It’s very well written and entertaining. It reminds me of the saying, “He’s a legend in his own mind.”
And the ending is perfect. Deep-down the narcs are not really fooling themselves and we shouldn’t be fooled either.
Hello Windstorm …beautiful lady,
“He’s a legend in his own mind” …. thankyou Windstorm … it’s a great saying. I’ll have to start using that one and “we shouldn’t be fooled either” … very wise indeed
Thank you 😊
Ps … sadly I do my best proof reading after I hit send … haha
This piece is a fabulous piece … what the ? No wonder my English teacher threw her hands up in horror and despair with moi 😩….. you should see inside my head … even worse … it’s all a bit here n there really and everything is coded…. in colour of course … and lots of tabs open …. haha
No issues was meant to be …. no tissues?
Sorry peoples 👵🏻 and also in advance for future fu I’m mean stuff ups 😂
Luv Bubbles x x
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. After a year, I was the one who broke it off (3-weeks ago) with a narcissist. I had NO idea of the depth of this behavior; previously, the label seemed so benign. I didn’t research narcissism until AFTER a friend recommended that I do. Every freaking narcissist box was checked with this dude and I am still big-eyed at my discovery. Somehow, your posts help me to see him as “something” and not “someone.” They make it easier to accept that he could never be loved enough to be ok. Again, thank you.
This is the first time I have read this.
It’s brilliant HG, I really like how you have written the article.
It is hard hitting just as the content requires, and it moves fast. It is in itself extreme. You are very effective.
Thank you
Thank you.
Thank You. HG, SHARON
HG You Rascal! You’ve Been Found!!!!
I’ve finally made it to the promised land and Oh Boy ladies!
Not only is there a Tudor Towers, there is a Tudor City and a Tudor Motel!
Don’t be hatin’ everyone. I am first checking out “where it all happens” then I imagine I’ll end up in the dungeon! How come you can only get your t-shirt signed if it’s wet?
Ready or not, here I come HG! 💙
ABB! You drop this nugget on finding Tudor Towers and then leave out details and disappear? Not nice! lol