Who’s The Daddy



I remember when I first met you. It was on a dance-floor and of course I caught your eye, I wanted you to catch my eye. I always draw those needed admiring glances when I move through a crowd but whilst those were required and welcome, I was focussed on ensuring you noticed me. I knew that you would. It was just a question of time. It always is. I was stood near one of the bars.I always chose this bar as it was elevated allowing everyone to see me and allowing me to see everyone and it was from this vantage point that I observed you. I saw you enter the room, your tight as tight could be dress already turning heads and you smiled, winked and blew kisses as you walked down the steps onto the dance floor as if everybody in the club was there for you. You were confident alright but you were over confident and I could see straight through that. I kept watching you as you flirted with the men nearby, irrespective of whether they were with another lady and you seemed oblivious to the hateful stares you received from the handful of girlfriends or wives whose other halfs you flirted with. I was interested in you already. If I had a Spidey sense it would have been tingling.

Your lithe frame entered the dancefloor and you felt that the coloured lights and throaty bass were all there for you as you began to dance. You caught the eye of several men and one by one they tried to dance with you .I could see you smiling to yourself as you turned your back on those you deemed beneath you. Each of them was well-dressed and good-looking but you rejected them. You milled around the dance floor until you neared your target, a handsome chap but he was older than those you had rejected and he was your choice. You pulled the chosen one towards you and you began your dance with him. I could see the way that you were grinding against this man on the dance floor was provocative and suggestive. You maintained eye contact with him, as if letting him out of your sight would cause him to disappear. Your eyes burned with wanton desire and your undulating and writhing was most definitely sexual in nature. The sexual aggression flowed from you and this caught my interest. You appeared as a bright dot on my radar and I knew that I needed to learn more.

It was not long before this dance partner was cast aside and replaced by a tastier and more attractive prospect. Me. You draped your arms about my neck as we danced, ground your crotch into my thigh, turned and pushed your pert posterior into my crotch and it was clear you wanted to seduce me. I played along, reciprocating the movements, letting my hands glide across your body as I eventually steered you across to the bar area and sat beside you on a couch as I ordered us both a drink. This was the first time that I had seen you be still and it allowed me to appraise properly your appearance. Your hair, a dirty blonde colour was not cut but rather chopped short, sticking out in a variety of angles which gave the appearance of not caring but most likely had been carefully pulled and twisted into place before a generous layer of hair spray was applied. I reasoned that you wore your hair short because as a child you were denied the right to have it cut short. You always had to have it long and golden, like the hair of a princess. I bet your father would read you stories about Sleeping Beauty, Snow White and Rapunzel as he stroked your hair, telling you how beautiful it was because it was long. I imagined that you wanted to cut it as you got older, the length being difficult to maintain but moreover too symbolic of the safe, suburban and middle-class upbringing you had received when you wanted to rebel. I bet you fought to have that hair cut even just by a few inches but you were forbidden from doing so and now this punkish, chopped and almost butchered hair style was the two-fingered salute you had given to your past. It screamed its story to me since I recognised it from a mile.

Your lipstick was bright red, your eyes framed by black mascara, eye liner and a battleship grey eye shadow. You were thin. Stick-like and I recognised such a frame. You stared at me as you sucked on the straw sliding it in and out of those pursed lips as you tried, without subtlety, to suggest what I might have coming my way. You were much younger than me. I would imagine at least fifteen years between us. Nowhere near illegality of course, that is not my penchant at all, but a sufficient age gap that was noticeable and of course something they would comment on, hewould comment on, if they ever met me. If.

I saw the tattoos on your arms, great sleeves of floral designs and also similar on your thigh as your already short dress rode up as you sat on the sofa. I could see the design was intricate and extensive across your left thigh but it did not mask the line of scars completely. That neat and ordered row of incisions that had been made in your thigh, like notches on a bedpost. They brought you relief, temporary and momentary, but they also shamed you and thus you sought the ink in an attempt to mask those wounds in the same way that I knew this overt  confidence, flirtation and sexual aggression was just a mask as well. That light on my radar shone brighter and I could almost smell the fuel that I knew would flow from you freely and readily, just like the blood had flowed down your thigh. I held your gaze, those flinty eyes trying to burn into my mind but getting nowhere, a slight flicker of confusion and then they shifted into conveying that desire you oozed. You had no idea whose web you had flown into but I knew exactly what you were.

“What time is your daddy picking you up?” I asked my question near shouted to be heard over the music playing.

You coughed, the straw shooting from your mouth as you jerked your glass away.

“What? My dad? He’s not picking me up,” you protested. Your expression was not one of mild amusement but rather disdain and irritation. Just as I thought it would be.

“Of course not. Why would he do that when you are coming home with me?” I added with a wide smile. Your eyes widened and you copied my smile.

“I do love daddy issues,” I said quietly.

“What?” you asked unable to hear.

“I said, I nearly missed you,” I replied in a louder tone, “I was about to go home.”

“Well, it is a good job you didn’t,” you answered as you moved closer to me, pressing that fragile and broken frame against me, seeking the warmth, shield and protection that I offered you. You had found your new daddy. I had found a potent new victim.



      1. I just thought maybe they all wear long sleeved shirts and turtlenecks and only have sex with the lights off.

          1. Or perhaps a scarification? After the pattern is cut into your skin, it must be scrubbed daily to prevent it from scabbing over and to get the keloid to form. It’s long, drawn out, painful and has a dramatic effect. 😉

      1. Great! Something to look forward too.

        You have described yourself and I have this image of what you are like in my head. And you have described some of your past relationships. Would you be willing to write about your current girlfriends?

        What do they look like? How are they different from each other? What does one provide that the other is lacking?

        I am curious are they super model material?Or average? Are they classy or trashy? What kind of work do they do? How did you meet them? How long have you been with them?

  1. HG
    Ramani Durvasula Ph.D., wrote, Should I Stay or Should I Go: Surviving a Narcissistic Relationship. I got three fourths through the book before I stopped reading because it was so bad. She wrote that we choose the narcissist and we need to look at the reasons why we keep doing that. She is no expert.

    HG Tudor
    JUNE 24, 2018 AT 19:21
    Dr Ramani writes nonsense.

    1. KK
      When I first saw this all I could think of was that old song by The Clash, “Should I Stay or Should I Go.”

      “Should I stay or should I go now?
      Should I stay or should I go now?
      If I go, there will be trouble
      And if I stay it will be double
      So come on and let me know
      Should I stay or should I go?”

  2. That’s really good, Twilight! I can see it in my mind. That bear chasing her down so he won’t have to be alone anymore. 😂

  3. Windstorm

    “If I were out with a narcissist and we saw a bear, I imagine they’d abandon me to the bear and disappear before I could do anything.”

    Yes, I hear you.

    I verily believe that when in the wilds together with a narcissist – an empath very well may be left to the bears.

    Personally, I’d rather take my chances with a bear.

    1. Whocares
      Well to be honest, I’d never go out into the wild with a narcissist if I could help it. All they do is immediately get bored, complain about every little thing, and want to “hurry, hurry, hurry” if I find a spot where I want to linger.

      Nothing ruins time out in a woods like a narcissist. Even the ones who love nature ruin my experience by insisting that everything be done their way – from the pace, to where and how long we stop. And if I am unable or unwilling to comply, they go into a snit.

  4. Windstorm –

    “When I read his “don’t beat yourself up about it”, it set off alarms and red flags in my mind. It seemed so contrary to what he normally would have said. ”

    I wouldn’t have shared this either if I had not read your comment…but I had a weird reaction as well when reading that particular comment of HG’s.

    “Don’t beat yourself up…”

    And I almost ignored it but my brain said that’s unusually casual…lax…or I almost wanted to interpret it as ‘cheerful’ (when considered in relation to other comments of his occuring around the same time) and then I shrugged my shoulders and thought: Well, maybe he’s just very well fuelled at the moment…

    P.S. just putting this at the top because i cannot find a reply button hardly anywhere…

    1. Windstorm and WhoCares

      HG stated don’t beat yourself up, didn’t throw up any red flags or trigger me. His intentions and the energy he puts behind his words is not manipulative yet logical. If he was to have said it outside of this arena….I am sure the energy would be very different depending on which stage things were in.

  5. I think the reason this article was partly resurrected/reposted is because one blogger’s profile photo on this site looks very similar to the picture in this article. Very cool! Maybe they are related.

      1. Tigerchelle & Catherine Parr R,

        I’m a little curious, too, about whos’ avatar Catherine may think resembles this blog article photo. LOL! I’m often curious about a lot of things, even when they don’t affect me.
        But I think if HG detected any similarity between the photo submitted by one of his minions, and any posters’ avatar, he would reject that photo, and send his minion back to sifting images for the perfect fit.

  6. I have one question. What happens to narcissist when he get old and more aware of the fact that he or she will die just like the everybody else? Death is the ultimate lost of control and power, so I would guess this scares the shit out of narcissist. What do you think about death, HG?

  7. hg, what is your take on Johnny depp and Amber heard? Who was the Narcissist. I wanted to side with Amber, but i found it narcissistic of her to film and make public Johnnies drinking instead of just moving on. Johnny is also so saulky and i feel its almost an unraveling of ego. Not sure. I curious about your take

    1. Depp will have narcissistic traits, he is an actor of course, but he is not a narcissist. With regard to Amber Herd, there are indicators with regard to her behaviour but I cannot state a definitive view as I have not analysed her.

      1. He hit her, and there’s recordings of him berating her. He has a drinking problem and a midlife crisis, as an old school straight man, he couldn’t handle her younger-gen, queer Hollywood lifestyle. Her issues don’t excuse his, he was the perp.

      2. Vanessa P is a French feminist, like the Italians—they usually blame the woman, because smart women accept “that men will be men” and women should use their beauty to their advantage, like Venus! —but it’s hypocritical and supports a macho Latin culture. Sure Heard was gold-digging, but Depp was youth-digging – what’s the difference?

      3. Depp hit Amber because he was jealous and had alcohol fueled rage fits. He was already emotionally abusive to her, he viewed her as a possession. She was more interested in her friends and parties, couldn’t wait to get out and this was her ticket to alimony. They’re all entitled people. But as a society, men hitting women shouldn’t be acceptable, he could also have put on his big boy pants and divorced her.

      4. I roll, i have been accused of all the things they accused Amber heard of. I can tell you she is not a gold digger. There is always someone more ugly and boring who has more money to give away. She in relationships with depp and elon musk back to back. They both are extremely rich, but what do they have in common? They are both self made successful people. I’m sure they both radiate magnetism, intelligence amd beauty that people can’t get enough of. I am sure there is something about her that these men choose to publicly make her their significant other. There was just so much mud being throwm


      5. Anm, I was being as negative as possible, to say that it’s still even then, not Ok. I can’t pretend to know Amber personally or what it’s like to be a celeb.

        The power-scales in society are tipped against women’s favour, that doesn’t mean I condone selfish behaviour in women, but I “don’t care” about them being held up to some token moral perfection that puts them in a supporting role. Women are imperfect and complex, good and bad, we’re people.

        I can totally imagine Depp being out of his depth. He didn’t like that her attention was so spread out and she wasn’t playing a more traditional wife role. A lot of men get with younger women not realising that it won’t always be flattering for them, they’re not the submissive and easy to tame creatures they’re fetishised as being. Especially women in their 30s – we have youth but also experience, a bit of a deadly combo to the fragile male ego.

        Detour: I think that’s why OKC reported that men see women’s sell-by-date as 22, which just shows how intimidated by ‘women’ they really are. Dating a guy in his 20s would be like dating a kid, i like people with complexity and depth. It’s all so weird, but i think society is basically female-phobic. Despite that, it’s great to be a woman, the pain is worth it!

        I’m curious about HG’s drawing the line, i was wondering if he thought all attractive, successful and/or charismatic people were narcs because they are some ‘super race’.

        I liked an early film Amber was in, “All the Boys Love Mandy Lane”. I’m a bit of a horror movie fan (not all, but some). Especially ones that play with the concept of women’s agency.

        The TV show Killing Eve, is amazing! Just in case anyone shares my fascinations.

  8. T- (i have no idea where this will go; where are all the reply buttons)

    “I hate having roomates, housemates. I really need to find a space I can go be alone.and there doesn’t seem to be anyplace I can go. It’s all a snowball rolling downhill.”

    I know what it’s like living in a situation where you aren’t quite sovereign over your own time. Please make sure you try find the time for yourself – I get up early in the wee hours (when no one else is awake around me) just so I can hear myself think..just journaling or writing posts here. I find it’s been so helpful. I’d rather forego sleep then lose my quiet time any day.

    Also, when things are super tough I try to simplify my priorities and don’t apologize to *anyone* for not being able to accomplish more.

    Please take care.

  9. borderlines are not narcissist. My mother s a borderline. While it does depend on where one is on the spectrum , most borderlines are not malignant like narcissist. My mother did have the black and white thinking, she was often over enmeshed or neglectful. Her biggest problem was self destruction, which you don’t see much narcissist doing. She would go on junk food binges and constantly ask my dad why didn’t he love her… but he did and he showed her in many ways. It’s a different kind of messed up in the head. There are a lot of celebrity borderlines just like there are celebrity narcissist. Madonna is a narcissist though.

    1. 1. Borderlines are narcissistic.
      2. Not all narcissists are malignant.
      3. There is an interesting argument about what borderlines actually are.
      4. Madonna is indeed a narcissist.

      1. 1. Borderlines are narcissistic, but not narcissist. Narcissist can also have traits of borderline, but they are usually predominantly one or the other.
        2. Most narcissist, if not all will become malignant to a victim for the sake of self preservation, or facade management. Even my midrange ex would get down right malignant at the end of our relationship. Borderlines do not operate like that. They dont care about the facade or self preservation for the most part and will even damage both out of the chaos they create.
        3. True.
        4. Angelina Jolie is a boderline. She sexualized herself for love and attention, but none of her long term relationships lasted. She stopped seeking attention from men when she had 6 kids. She did continue with eating disorders that did not help her career. Most narcissist parents with money and status will send their kids to boarding schools or micro manage their schedules for fuel, control and facade management. Borderlines like Jolie typically have their kids homeschooled for their own emotional needs. There are accusation of Jolie alienating her kids from brad Pitt. I dont believe she is alienating them to win, or for all the other reasons narcissist alienate. I believe she is per serving that over enmeshment with the kids. So the attachment styles are different, but the wounds and tools for manipulation are similar. Just in my opinion

        1. Exactly, ANM, borderline’s are narcissistic and will usually have traits but they are not narcissists. Yes the manipulations and tools are very similar and that’s why so many get confused. I agree about Angelina too. Good comment!

      2. Lol!!! NA! A while back I was diagnosed borderline. Then I was told I wasn’t, then I was. One things about that is borderlines are supposed to be highly sexual. I guess I am, but only with a partner. For me picking someone up at a bar, or online stuff isn’t entertaining fro me. And freaks me out. I like the old fashioned, awkward way of getting to know someone. Lolol! I think I’m outdated. The world has changed without me noticing. Crazy, but seriously.
        I wonder what other’s do, normals, Empaths, and narcissists do??? What are the rules of the ballgame now???

      3. Borderline personality disorder have the ability to empathize and we have emotional and sensory skills unlike narcs.

        IMO codependent or more like narcs. They are needy, clingy, selfish, and lack accountability for their own actions. Comfortable as a victim.

      4. “1. Borderlines are narcissistic.
        2. Not all narcissists are malignant.
        3. There is an interesting argument about what borderlines actually are.”

        Could someone (who is more qualified than me to recognize the criteria of BPD) please connect the dots here please!

        1. HG always allows certain conversations or posts as a learning excercise. (Sometimes when we highlight his time and effort as wasteful – there is actually a purpose to it)

        2. HG is about correcting inaccuracies.

        3. Narcissists (HG especially) don’t waste time unnecessarily. (Sometimes certain conversations get more ‘airtime’ then others we deem more worthy – why do you suppose that is?) And it isn’t always about ‘hits’ on the blog – I’m so guessing, anyway.

        Maybe I’m wrong.

        1. WhoCares

          You are not wrong

          IMO HG lets everyone have a voice here and those that have no idea what they are provide real examples of what to look for, HG knows yet there is no reason for him to point this out, it does no good to tell the student the answer they will soon forget, yet if they discover it from what they have read they learn the lesson and do not forget.

      5. T-

        “The world has changed without me noticing. Crazy, but seriously.
        I wonder what other’s do, normals, Empaths, and narcissists do??? What are the rules of the ballgame now???”

        Glad to see, in your stress, that you haven’t lost your sense humour! Enjoy your ‘beach day.’

      6. Who cares,

        I am not an expert in BPD ( or EUPD as it’s also known) but I know people who are.
        My understanding is that the ICD criteria is used in the UK for mental health diagnostics. It is not as elaborate or detailed as the DSM 5 Which is used more in the states.
        Narcissistic traits and many similar behaviours such as projection can be common within the BPD diagnosis. However i can not specify that all people who have a BPD diagnosis are narcissistic, I imagine it again depends on where you are on the sliding scale of sensitivity and/ your overall personality type. Just like empathy is on the sliding scale for all people between empaths- normals- high narcissism and malignant narcissism. So one individual with a BPD diagnosis could have very high empathy and low narcissistic traits and another can be the reverse with lower empathetic traits and more narcissistic traits.

        I have been advised that you can have a co-morbid diagnosis of NPD and BPD in the uk, as they assess from overall traits and presentation- a certain number of features from each description breakdown in the ICD. – it would be called mixed personality disorder if formally diagnosed. I imagine this is possible due to sliding scale mentioned above.

        With reference to your observations on threads of conversation enabled on the blog and focus. I agree with you.
        I believe that HG allows lots of different thoughts in the blog to spark dialogue, and learning.
        He definitely corrects inaccuracies as this is important for learning. I also believe that he engages in conversation purposefully to address the above – and highlight interesting conversations to other bloggers.

        HG has repeatedly advised that narcissists conserve their energy where possible, I don’t believe that he would engage in conversations or respond to things that were not relevant due to this. Especially when he is so busy in all others areas of life. I believe he will use brevity when he feels a response is needed/ useful, or he will not respond at all.

        Just my observations also.

      7. WhoCares, I’ve been operating under that assumption too. I don’t think you’re wrong.

        Twilight, I’ve been dealing IRL with something similar to what has been transpiring on the blog and stand firmly with you. I’ve been speaking out IRL, set my boundary firmly IRL, and adamantly refuse to be sucked into the IRL so-called victim’s blame game. As noted to WhoCares above and in another post where I reference Depeche Mode’s ‘Enjoy the Silence’ lyrics – ‘Words are very unnecessary, they can only do harm’.

        Agter I’ve said my peace, once I recognize there is no willingness on the part of the other to consider how THEIR OWN actions create the disharmony, I refuse to engage any further.

        As Quasi noted, I like to use song to reinforce my learnings. ‘We’re on a road to nowhere…’ (Talking Heads) comes to mind with some people.

      8. HG, because of our mutual love of DM and similar ages, I just know I’m your favorite! Total joke that I know you’ll get but just wanted to share my thoughts on the extensive philosophy and wisdom of early DM which has been illuminated by your writings:

        DUTG on GTBR: “in times of caring, help the helpless, but always remain ultimately selfish” (‘selfish’ = protect yourself with healthy boundaries, don’t lose yourself in helping the perceived ‘helpless’)

        HG on GTBR: “in times of caring (about the facade), help the (true) helpless, but always remain ultimately selfish” (in the exploitative kind of way).

        Do I get an A+ HG? Don’t answer. I’m content in my own ability to learn and digest from what you’ve shared here and will be forever grateful for you and your posters for illuminating what I am!

        1. DUTG
          Yes. All well and fine. Now can you tell us more about Sigmund Freud and his tiger? Good times.

      9. T – not all borderliners are highly sexual, or, it’s not that simple.

        I can be sexual, but then also not be interested in sex, at all. I feel very threatened when strange men approach me sexually, i get quite hostile with them.

        I take pride in my femininity, but sex itself, is a bit gross. I’m far more emotional than physical about sex.

        In long term relationships, i can go for months without sex, i’d rather watch a good movie or read a book, or hang with friends or online groups. I’m also fetishistic, i get turned on by strange beauty or my feelings, clinical settings, pain, and high romance or fear.

        When i got with my ‘sex-addict’ narc, i wouldn’t have sex with him the first time, so he strangled me and i had big purple hand prints on my neck. I didn’t struggle. It felt like, deja-vu, hypnotic.

        The next time we met, still not having had sex, we went to read books in a park and he didn’t try to touch me at all. I felt relaxed with him.

        Then we kissed as if drawn magnetically at the same time, and it felt very natural. Most of our kisses were like that. Few men have that kind of confidence, with me anyway. He was intense and i’m passive, so it worked. Until i had boundaries with him, such as – leaving “without his permission” and questioning his attitudes, then he started the bullying and silent treatments, which made me emotionally distressed – and that would go on and on.

        He would tell me i was too much in my head, and put me through more physical endurance sex than i’ve ever had, as, he said “to make me more true to myself”. But it was macho bullshit, he was controling and abusive.

      10. Interesting info and comments on borderlines. Im still learning about bpd. I think its important to learn about to differentiate it from npd. The two are different personality disorders with common traits and similiar beginnings.
        Along my narcissism journey ive also learned a lot about myself and ive found some of the bpd traits fit my personality. I brought this up to a counsellor(not psychologist) i was going to at the time and she felt i wasnt a borderline but going back years ago i knew i had questions about certain aspects of my personality. Id brought it up to a clinicsl psychologist 10 yrs ago these certain traits and she thought nothing of them and we never addressed them. Bpd was never mentioned and i had never heard of it back then.
        I feel bpd is a mix of empath and narcissism. Im a deeply sensitive person and have a lot of empathy towards many even strangers but at the same time have had the black and white thinking and if triggered can become cold and hard if i feel someone has wronged me in some way. Most times i can think on it and come back to rational level headed thinking but the trait of splitting i can relate to bc ive had this happen.
        I can be highly sexual but ive gone spans of time without so i think its really dependant on the individual. I think where this stems from is individuals with bpd that self medicate using sex. Not all are highly sexual all the time or rely on sex to self regulate emotionally.
        I think its important to distinguish the differences between the two bc itll make a huge difference as to how you deal with an individual with one of these personality disorders. I can see how a borderline would be mistaken as a midrange victim narcissist but i personally think the two are different. One has empathy true empathy and the other with npd only cognitive empathy whether they know its not real empathy or not.

        1. ChiMum

          Yes and sometimes you dont even have to look too hard or too far to see a narc that presents as a borderline.

      11. Narc Angel my lovely ANN partner! Lol lol lol! Totally forgot about that! I’m crying tears of laughter here! Good times! That and the ‘finger blast’ or something like that post from you still has me belly laughing!!! Remember that one? I’ve thought of it often in recent times because the current ‘green’ commentary totally reminds me of the poster who previously prompted that funny-not funny response from you way back then. Coincidence? DUTG says no.

        1. DUTG
          Hahaha. I cant remember the thread (K will no doubt) but I remember thinking: check this wicked funny bitch. She thinks Sigmund Freud has a lover named Roy and owns a tiger. That was a good thread.

          1. NarcAngel and DUGT

            FEBRUARY 6, 2018 AT 02:55

            Remember it was either Sigmund or Freud who got mauled by his tiger, or was it his lion? Can’t remember specifics at this time. Must Google. Anyway, wow! What a day! I think both lions and tigers are magnificent beasts, from afar. So is HG whom I like and am grateful for.

            Narc Angel
            FEBRUARY 6, 2018 AT 19:01
            Are you referring to the flaming Vegas duo of Zigfried and Roy? Or was the Neurologist and co-founder of Psychology mauled by his tiger also? Inquiring minds would like to know.


            Ha ha ha…that was a riot!

      12. Chihuahuamum

        You think you might be a borderline? I am not a specialist in that area but your messages seem empathic.

        I have seen a couple of people’s messages here who appear borderline. Reading those comments frustrated me. No way could I be in the presence of someone like that for too long. I don’t know why a narcissist would want that in their life – even for fuel. My external self is quite and controlled and that bpd behaviour would exhaust the fuck out me. Not all is bad with a bpd. Publicly, they can take the spotlight off of me onto themselves – which is excellent.

        Fuel wise, borderlines seem like very low hanging fruit ripe for picking for a narcissist. Or a great on-the-run fuel injectable on a very dry fuel day.

      13. Another distinction is individuals with bpd have the ability to self reflect and look within depending on the severity. Bpd like npd is a spectrum. Narcissists lack the ability to truely self reflect. I think greaters like HG can but only so far. They are never accountable for what they find within.

      14. Quasi, Chihuahuamum & NarcAngel –


        I appreciate your insight (especially in comparing diagnostic tools in the UK and the US).
        I believe that comorbidity addresses part of the issue but that strict adherence to the DSM etc., (without recognizing that such ‘manuals’ evolve over time and are subject to cultural influence) blinds some professionals…


        Interesting…I can definitely relate to some of your observations on yourself and I’m still reflecting on your words…but I think this statement bears repeating:

        “I can see how a borderline would be mistaken as a midrange victim narcissist but i personally think the two are different. One has empathy true empathy and the other with npd only cognitive empathy whether they know its not real empathy or not.”

        Only, I would change up some of the words…starting with:

        “I can see how a *midrange victim narcissist* would be mistaken as a *borderline*…”


        “Yes and sometimes you dont even have to look too hard or too far to see a narc that presents as a borderline.”


      15. Hi catherine…bpd and npd are spectrums so you can have varying degrees of personality traits. I have seen some of the traits within myself but id say if i do have bpd itd be very mild. I am very empathetic. I think thats a stigma about borderlines. Ive never been diagnosed but i have seen a few of the traits within myself.
        The more severe would be the impulsive borderline or self harming none of which ive done.
        I think youre right that a relationship with someone with severe bpd would be very exhausting and destructive but remember its a spectrum and many with bpd have gotten help and have gone on to become better people. Sadly npd isnt as successful with therapy.
        Many with bpd feel they are “bad” people and that stigma needs to be broken.

        1. Narc Affair

          This is where things actually bother me, those misdiagnosed as BPD either do not receive the correct treatment and/or if one is not familiar with BPD make those that are seen in a darker light because it leaves an impression on a person that is not familiar.

          1. Thank you, Twilight!!! I totally agree with you. I’ve been diagnosed with bpd, and a whole bunch other crap including mental retardation when I was 5, and at 5 put on adhd and antidepressant drugs. I know what was wrong, by that age already I had PTSD. Of course then, I don’t even know if they had that diagnosis? And please understand that I’m only using myself as an example. Lol, still want to save the world. Sometimes I feel I talk about myself too much. Sometimes I feel awkward chiming in, so I don’t, at the risk of saying the wrong thing.
            I’m pretty much a loner these days. I forget how to relate to other’s. Or shit, maybe I never learned. So, hopefully what I’m saying makes sense.
            Sometimes being an empath be like……

          2. T

            You are doing just fine. I have not seen you being disrespectful towards anyone, but trying to sort out your own emotions and the why.

            After what you have been through being a loner is understandable, nothing wrong with it, it becomes an issue if you horde yourself up in a room never interacting with others, I have seen this and it is very sad. The worse prison to be stuck in is your own mind. There is no escape from it. Why self talk can be the most destructive IMO. We all put on a mask to “fit in” as we were taught one must be. It is removing it accepting ourselves for who we are, loving and showing compassion to ourselves, perspective starts to change.

            Keep speaking you will find you feet again or if you never had you will.

      16. K!!! How do you find stuff so quickly? Do I have to have a Word Press account to be able to do that? I’m so very grateful to you for finding that. Thank you!

        And full disclosure, I was totally serious when I wrote that and wasn’t trying to be funny. Total brain fart. I detest that phrase, but if the shoe fits…

        1. My pleasure, DUTG!

          You do not need a WP account to find it. My secret weapon is Google.
          I googled the words from NA’s comment: Sigmund, tiger and Freud and found it by doing a simple google search. You can google search all your comments that way. It’s fabulous. Put narcsite in the search too.

      17. K, you were pretty darn funny in that thread too with your reminder about HG and ‘those kind of’ pics. Your cat made. N appearance too! Thank you for posting that link, and please show me how.

        NarcAngel, as HG said in that link, you were ON POINT. After reading through it, I realize I should have said finger ‘bang’ to trigger your memory, not ‘blast’.

        1. DUTG
          Ha ha ha…I was reading the comments and laughing. It is fun to go through the old threads again and see all the funny stuff. It reminds me of a high school yearbook.

          Sigmund Freud
          Morse code
          dick pics
          poor kitty

          When you google search the comments, put narcsite in the search bar, too.

      18. ChihuahuaMum, thanks for your posts here and all over the blog! I always learn a lot from them!

      19. Twilight et al.

        “Narc Affair

        Do you believe one can be misdiagnosed as BPD and not NPD?”

        I just wanted to clarify my point incase something I said was misconstrued.

        In response to the general commentary – I agree that it is important not to misdiagnose someone…or even to engage in play ‘diagnosis’ – mostly because of the weight we attach to those labels ourselves…Personally, I make no judgement on people who are self-declared borderlines (or officially diagnosed) and my experience with such individuals here are that most of them are lovely, insightful, empathetic people. (So I don’t even understand the point of the discussion on them as good/bad people.)

        However, I do think it’s possible to discern the difference (when in question) between BPD and NPD – especially if the particular individual is put in a situation where their empathy is put to the test…eventually it becomes evident when someone possesses only cognitive empathy. (I’m speaking from real life experiences – I think it’s harder to flush out here.)

        And many commentators here know what it looks like when they’ve engaged narcs their personal life and pointed out to those individuals their lack of empathy – especially in the case of female narcissists.

        1. WhoCares

          I was asking for Narc Affair opinion not asking if she was stating anyone here was or was not.
          When I asked this I had not read your response to her, Narc Angel and Quasi if I had I would have seen it and not asked.

      20. Twilight,

        “I was asking for Narc Affair opinion not asking if she was stating anyone here was or was not.”

        Thank-you for clarifying.

        I originally pointed out HG’s numbered responses because I’m interested in others’ experiences regarding BPD and NPD.

        In particular my interest is sparked by my experience with my mother, who would not exhibit (by the opinions of some) what would ‘typically’ be identified as narcissistic qualities – although HG’s work has helped identify that she is one.

        (So I wanted to ask questions but now I realize this quite a sensitive area and I want to tread carefully.)

      21. Hi whocares…ty for your reply and i agree wholeheartedly! Youre right no one should diagnose another or suggest it. Ive been guilty of that and see how its wrong. Only a professional can properly assess and determine if an individual has a certain personality disorder.
        Its also easy to fall into the good or bad game…see narcs arent the only ones to do it.
        I agree the main difference between bpd and npd is true empathy. One has the capacity to feel it the other doesnt. Both are on a spectrum so traits and severity vary.

      22. Ty for your kind post DUTG :) i enjoy your posts as well! I dont always reply but i read most of the posts and have learned a lot thru them 🤗

    2. Anm, you got it right re: borderline. You have real experience. Thank you.

      NPD people have low / shallow emotion, borderline people have intense emotions – this emotional intensity erodes the ability to form a supportive structure for the borderliner’s self. That’s literally what defines the diagnosis.

      Personality disorders are ways of coping with underlying conditions, and they vary between people who suffer the same condition. You can alter the coping-patterns by helping someone form better habits and perceptions, which is a lot of work and requires long-term therapy, but not the condition itself. This is how our brains have developed. ‘Recovered’ BPD = BPD – nos, which is like some kind of lower risk for the worse symptoms, still requiring therapy. Preferably lifelong therapy.

      BPD and NPD are completely opposite experiences with different needs to support their internal states, so whatever personality issues a borderline has – if they are narcissistic or not, or sometimes they are, sometimes not, doesn’t change the fact that they lack the underlying neurobiology and motivations that true NPD types have.

      Mixing between diagnostic profiles, is a separate diagnosis.

  10. I wonder if a person with “daddy issues”, would help a person with “mummy issues.” I wonder if that could heal the wound they both have inside them. Who knows?

    1. Catherine
      She felt that she’d never had her father’s love as a child, so now she’s looking for a father figure to “love” her.

        1. Catherine
          Incest would definitely be a “daddy issue.” But so is abandonment or neglect.

      1. Hi catherine…daddy issues can be a result of incest but not always. Ive always liked older men but it was bc they matched my personality better. Ive never had daddy issues that im aware of. That said i do love younger men too for their ability to be silly and have fun. I guess it boils down to personality.
        I have seen an example of someone that does and thats an exfriend of my daughters. Shes very promiscous around men and shes only 13. Its obvious. She hangs off them in inappropriate ways and comes off very sexual. I do wonder if she had been molested. Shes definitely neglected. She would stay at our house for days and her mum never called or texted it was always me asking her if she could stay over. I see a lot of these red flags in her. She vapes as well. Has had a much older boyfriend etc. Im glad my daughter no longer hangs out with her. I dont mean that in a cold way but out of concern for my daughter.

    2. People, not gender-specific, who were traumatised by, or had bad relationships with – their fathers. Could have with their mothers too.

      It’s a flippant way of saying that the person hasn’t dealt with those issues and is acting-out. Usually it’s a stereotype about the ‘crazy chick’ who has a lot of sex as a way to deal with emotional wounds. But both men and women can have these issues and it doesn’t have to mean they are punk kids with Freudian / Jungian Elekra complexes (opposite to the Oedipus complex).

      Issues are usually passed on through family relationships, afterall.

  11. HG I think of you as a Thing A robot giving us the 411 of what there needs to be known about your kind. No remorse No empathy. Missing a humanity switch. YOUR INTENT IS TO HURT US human-beings and then you get your fix, your high of your drug…OUR emotions…..BUT whatever you tell us, changing it up or writing books. What changes NOTHING….we find out after the fact, we got fucked by a Narc. You can’t save us or take our pain away..YOU explain our pain..ANGER saved me…AS I got so angry of HOW FUCKING DARE HE TAKE FROM ME AND ALL THE GOOD I GAVE. Then I though if he did this to me…WHO else…ALL OF YOU…WHO AND HOW MANY OTHERS ARE THERE BESIDES YOU????? That was my mission…WE are not dealing with Harveys or Bills or Rapist..We are dealing with emotional Con artist taking from us, our trust…Some of us DID get abused physically and that I am SOOOO SORRY you got a fucking asshole….Just my thoughts for today…

    1. I like your thinking spiritual warrior! You are so right in what you say! Glad there are some other passionate ones like me in here!

  12. This article is very interesting, both in the gripping way the story is written, as well as the dynamic between these two psychological types.

    The girl shows signs of being a borderline personality.

    For anyone interested in learning more about the differences and similarities between narcissistic personalities and borderline personalities, please look at the comment sections on the previously published occurrences of this same article. They are very informative.

    1. Noted and read…. as I suspected much confusion amongst BPD and NPD.
      Being borderline myself, I could see this girl being very much me. Though I’m not tall unfortunately …And I would have done the exact same thing… and I am attracted to older guys, and I also have major daddy issues…
      Usually…Older guys have more experience, class, sophistication, intelligence… and are more grounded. I think they know themselves better and know what they want more. Whereas younger guys, just are still learning, and it shows, they are like little boys… no matter how good looking they are, they would just bore me, and I’ve dated male models before, (but nothing up top ya know…) no appeal there at all.
      There is a certain amount of security and safety that comes with an older guy. They are more likely to be able to provide for you and have a house, car, and be “set up” so to speak. For a borderline, she is often looking even on a subconscious level for safety, and security, although she won’t actually show it, and will be prickly, confusing, give off confusing signals… so to speak. There is always a control battle going on with Narcs and Borderline’s hence why most Narcs don’t bother with us. The narc would have to make the borderline WANT to let her guards down. This is no easy feat! Especially if she has trust issues. Or she will only let you in so far. Then push you away! Depends how damaged she is I guess….

      1. Thank you for your comment Tigerchelle78. It’s very informative and makes a lot of sense.

        When you break down the causes and the emotional motivations behind a person’s actions, like you have done in your comment, there’s a great deal of “logic” in what looks illogical on the surface.

        There are valid reasons there and to the “damaged” person, it’s not disordered. To them it’s more like common sense, until they are hurt enough that they start to see the disorder for themselves.

      2. Hi Tiger,

        If you do not mind answering. Have you received clinical diagnosis for borderline personality disorder?

        Now that I’ve found dialectical behavior therapy effective. Ere to the bipolar disorder.

        The challenge is finding the right meds to address our symptoms.

        Best wishes..

        1. Yes, I have been diagnosed by psychiatrist, a psychotherapist, and a seperate mental health nurse since 2012.

    2. But HG doesn’t date borderline’s…. he can’t handle them…. not when there are much lower pickings to be had….

          1. Time prevents me from correcting everything that ought to be corrected.

          2. HG, what are “top of the fuel tree” for you as a Greater Elite? What’s your juiciest fruit? I think the census here is that Borderlines are at the very bottom and low hanging fruit, would this be correct? And if so, why?

          1. Do you see yourself at the top of the fuel tree because you see yourself as a boarderline?
            I was asking your opinion tigerchelle78 it was the impression I got from your comment boarderline are higher up.

        1. I just looked back as I forget all the stuff I say…. No Twilight. It is my opinion that borderline’s are hard to control. And most Narcs, even Greaters will admit this. A sense of control/power is something a Narc needs. Borderlines do not give that control over without a good fight or perhaps many in fact. But often we don’t give it over at all, and you end up with a stale mate type situation. We will try to test them. We will spin them around and do all sorts, in an attempt to confuse, put them off, and basically annoy them.
          But maybe HG would be the best person to ask. He would know what is good for fuel. What is your opinion then Twilight?

      1. tigerchelle78

        IMO most people would say boarderline is hard to control due to the emotional tantrum they project when they believe they have been “offended” and things can become more on the aggressive side. things being broken, thrown around etc and at times physical violence, not always but sometimes. Many just do not have the patience to deal with such childish behavior and will not look deeper into the why this is going on, easier to say they are uncontrollable and walk away.

        I do not see Greaters having an issue controlling a boarderline to do as they want, push this button here they are gushing positively push this button and they go off on some emotional tantrum making themselves look foolish and would be the easiest to look like the abuser in the relationship.

        There is no challenge. Anyone that can not control their own emotions is controllable, the challenge is finding the breaking point.

        Henceforth low hanging fruit, to easy to obtain the emotional output, no challenge what so ever.

        As far as HG goes he has stated his preference is a Super Empath and why. The challenge is unlocking both the positive and then negative fuel.

        Control is seeing what is and responding to the situation, not what it feels like and reacting to the situation.

        Greaters have no problem controlling their environment, I do not see them having an issue with controlling a boarderline to behave in the manner which suits them, I would venture to say they do it more for the burst of easy on tap fuel and amusement in making one dance for them, due to this they become bored with them quicker. I am not saying this is right to treat a person in this manner, I do not agree yet speaking on my opinion of harvesting fuel, is no different then picking that apple hanging on the lower branches it will sustain you, yet the one at the top will taste much sweeter because one had to work for it vs it being handed over.

      2. tigerchelle78,

        – bordie here, first of all, let’s not stereoptype bpd which you seem to be doing with the ‘edgy’ stuff. No two bordies are a like. Narcs are also all individuals and of different ‘types’, they are more rigidly patterned than people with bpd though, perhaps because we’re more emotional and responsive to others, while they’re operating from a ‘construct’ that is shut-off both from their own feelings and others. I do agree with this statement though:

        “a stale mate type situation”

        Totally. I’m not naive enough to give up my values and my identity to be controlled by a narc even when i’m going through the throws of abandonment-anxiety, because my splitting began in the first place – as a way to ‘hold onto myself’ during severe abuse. So i always choose myself and chosing myself in a situation where i’m abused and abandoned as a consequence, is also a familiar story that i might be re-creating via the narc, in order to get to the root of my issues. Which, i now realise – is not just abandonment, but a deep-rooted fear of autonomy. I am actually acting out my own struggles against internalised helplessness with the narc, so i am really rebelling against them. The narc can’t even begin to understand that kind of complexity, they’re not trying to get ‘more real’ and aren’t interested in psychodramas. They’re emotionally shallow and the higher-functioning types are also more practical. I’m the ‘creative’, they’re the ‘manager’.

        But then again, another bordie might? Sure i manipulate, seduce and deny back, but i’m really looking for authentic intimacy and catharisis and they’re just not. They’re tragic like that, and at some point, i have to let go. I’m not sure if ‘ego-wound’ is quite the same level of suffering i go through, either., because bpd is emotional agony. It’s all quite the downer. It does challenge one’s projections, which is helpful if you can deal with the trial by fire.

        In the end, i’m stronger than a narc – if having personal integrity, emotional and intellectual depth is considered to be strong. If just repressing all your feelings to have hollow relationships and sucesses, is your jam, then narcissism is stronger. Narcs are simple enough to be able to shut out complexity in order to be ‘Kings of the hill’ – and no matter how pathetic and obvious it seems, they believe it, and that gives them energy. It’s a solution, for them.

        I think that the narc over-identifies with the ‘authoritative father’ – aka superego, they are fixated on power. Bordies over-identify with the ‘abused mother’ and are seeking love, at the cost of ambition. It’s an imbalance that is part of the same construct, but oppositionally polarised. Neither situation is ‘healthy’.

        But would you rather fight the narc’s battles, or your own?

        1. I don’t understand how I’m stereotyping the borderline. But otherwise I agree with what you’ve said.
          I have enough battles of my own to fight. I’m not sure I was trying to fight other battles was I? If I was, how am I doing this?

      3. – also tiger78, when it comes to antisocials who get ‘fixated’ on you, the words: misogynistic torture-porn, comes to mind. That has haunting, disturbing effects, because they do it to vent their inner emptiness, and the deeply bitter and resentful pain that comes from that. It’s not a fun game, it’s nihilistic and full of illusions. Double suicide might be romantic in the classic sense, but murder isn’t.

        The idea that ‘we hurt the ones we love’ – is a toxic one and shouldn’t be romanticised. Though, our culture does just that and it keeps feeding our addictions to love-substitutes. Also, do you really want to be in someone’s ‘feedbag’?

        Be strong, be the love you want to see in the world. More than that: love should not conquer *everything* it shouldn’t be used to make garbage into gold. The power of NO is also one that should be in our arsenal. Once you can say no at the beginning, you’ve won. All the drama is just leading to that conclusion anyway.

        There are also others who do appreciate and can support us. Bordies can’t separate sex from love, so it’s best not to become addicted to abusers, because then it’s harder to enjoy being with genuine lovers and deal with more everyday problems. We shouldn’t compete with macho behaviour, because it’s just not who we are, if we’re tough it’s because we’re world-weary. The joy of living is the real goal.