Poll : What Are the Hardest Parts of Trying To Implement No Contact?
No contact is not just avoiding physical contact with our kind. It is shutting down the Five Fingers of Engagement, namely
- Not spending time with us in person;
- Not talking to us, be it by phone, Skype, text message or smoke signal
- Not doing things for us
- Not talking about us to others; and
- Not thinking about us
A complete and successful no contact embraces all of these five elements. It is not easy.
What do you find the hardest parts of implementing no contact to be? Is it because you cannot stop wanting to know what the narcissist is doing – whether it is finding our whether his life is falling apart and revelling in that or whether it is seeing if she is with somebody new – are you allowing the narcissist into your head as you search online for information and speak to people to find out if they have any news about the narcissist? Perhaps it is because the narcissist lives near you and knows where you live so it is easy for him or her to physically hoover you? Maybe you are in a position of co-parenting and therefore this causes no contact to be breached.
Possibly you cannot quash your need to have your say, whether to keep telling the narcissist how much he or she has hurt you or to tell them what an utter bastard he or she is. Alternatively, you may find that your need to tell all and sundry about how you have been treated means you are speaking about the narcissist and continuing to think about them.
Whatever the factors may be, choose the three which are the most applicable and cast your votes and as ever please do expand in the comments section with your thoughts and observations.
Thank you for participating.
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H.G. or anyone willing to comment….100% had I known even a year prior what I know now, I would be long gone/ no contact, good riddance….I have been with my wife for 10 years…in the past year or 2 I have been wickedly devalued, ignored, gaslighted, had my deepest insecurities (previously shared with my narcissist wife – likely a greater) that were shared at her prodding my need to be more vulnerable, completely trampled on and ripped apart…….she is very cunning, and while I’m certain based on events and intuition that she has had 1 or more affairs and may be currently shelving some secondary supply vs. lost a IPSS she was grooming to take my place or is giving me a golden period/hoovering me or all of the above, I have no definitive proof aside from texting, a few less than adulterous lies and plenty of speculation……began to read about and understand the sheer complexity and vexing condition that is narcissism, thanks to more accurate websites, including this one (my gratitude, H.G.)…..I can see the targeting that took place initially when we mounted our fine journey together……I am just a primary source for provisions…maintaining the façade of the American dream on the surface for her and of course providing mostly now negative supply….and plenty of it as she has pushed my empathic buttons and stuck her fingers in my wounds after dousing them w/ salt plenty in recent years……I would leave now…not that it would not be painful to accept the truth objectively at this point….but I would be prepared to do so…..however, I am not financially in a position to do so having our finances so entangled (although I am twice the breadwinner to her), but more so, we have 4 and 7 year old little boys that I would lay down my life for (which she is of course plenty savvy to) and don’t even have yet a fully aimed game plan for a departure as of yet……so, can H.G. or anyone comment this gray rock phenomenon, advise me on way or the other in regard to best action plan to take and how to interact with her in the interim until I am prepared to leave / will inevitably have to co-parent as well. thank you.
BPDempath, I suggest you read ‘Black Flag’ and ‘Escape’ ASAP if you have not already and schedule an audio consult with HG. You can do it. Don’t let your emotional thinking tell you otherwise. Once you know, you go. Consulting with HG will be invaluable. We are here on the blog to support you with our empathic skills for the part HG can’t do. All you have to do is reach out. Day or night.
All my best!
MB
I think I am there, people. He was not in my head at all today until suddenly I saw a branch of the company he works for. Hmmm, I thought, don’t I know someone who works there? What was his name again? I really had to think about it and then I realized that he was not in my head yesterday or today. Seriously. I think I am in the clear as long as he does not directly hoover me…
It’s my mother who is the narc problem now. She gets worse as she gets older. Yesterday she dissed her own granddaughter as well as me. She also interrupted my father as he was telling a story (he is 90+). She managed to alienate everyone. She absolutely cannot shut her mouth and if the focus is not on her, she will say something to bring it back to her, disparage whatever is being discussed, or interrupt in some other way. But then she will whip out a check book and throw money around and try to give me things. What is up with that? Is she buying loyalty?
How do we deal with grandma narc? Cannot go NC with her. Any suggestions?
Here are my thoughts on NC – I need to purge
Initially, the incredulousness of being duped in such a magnificent way is demeaning. You sit there thinking:
“How did this happen?!”
“I don’t understand how I fell for this?!”
“How could this happen to ME, I’m smart and independent and sure of myself?!”
You read here, the comments from others and what HG writes and all of it sounds so familiar and you, at first, gain a sense of comfort:
“I am not alone.”
“I am not the first.”
“Someone knows how I feel.”
But then there comes a phase where the more you read and the more you process how incredibly false it all was, those thoughts fall away and you are left with:
“I am weak.”
“I am stupid.”
“I am nothing.”
My self esteem has been damaged in a way I never thought possible. And not because of anything the narc said during our entanglement. Because now I know it was all fake. I’m judging myself in this scenario, and I’m the weaker opponent, the one taken in by lies, the one giving away so much and receiving nothing in return. If I had never found HG, I would be blissfully ignorant. Yes, I would be mourning an affair, a “breakup” of sorts, but I wouldn’t think the terrible things about myself that I do now. I wouldn’t be thinking, “well, just break NC and text him, it’ll feel better and its not like he has any respect for me for having a sense of pride.”
It’s these little pieces of knowledge that are daggers – that he has no respect for me no matter what I do, that neither begging him to come back or ignoring him entirely has any effect on how he thinks about me, because he DOESN’T think about me, I don’t exist to him right now.
If that’s the case, then hell, I might as well just beg and plead and try to get a hit of that drug to feel better.
BUT
Six weeks ago, that’s exactly what I was thinking, and I gave in to the crazy. I formed a new username on our preferred messaging app, and texted him…..disastrous.
The week following was pure hell, anxious and nauseous all over again, crying in the shower so my husband wouldn’t see me, struggling to fully engage with my kids and not let my thoughts wander.
Six weeks seems to be my emotional cycle, and I’m there again, itching to creep him to see if he’s changed his profile pic, any evidence of him fishing for someone new, to (stupidly) put myself in his sphere of influence to try and incite a hoover. Or worse – directly break NC and text him.
Yesterday I even downloaded the app, about to make a new username again “just to see.”
But I stopped myself. I thought:
“If I have the account, I’ll text him, I won’t be able to stop myself.”
“Where will it get me? What will it achieve?”
“Even if I get the FR back, even if I try to be on my best behavior and not wound him…how will this end?”
It will end by me
-wounding by accident
-not being able to believe anything he says because I know now how he lies
-not being able to revel in his professions of lust for me because I know now how untrue that is
-shelving against my wishes
-ignoring me, silent treatments, triangulation, disengagement
MISERY MISERY MISERY
I deleted the app without ever opening it, and felt a small sigh of relief. It sounds like nothing, but to me it is progress.
Logic won.
Day to day I get down because I still think about him so much, I still feel the need to be here on this blog every day, I chastise myself for not just “getting over it already.”
The time NC is critical, it lets the logic seep down into your pores. Its slow, so much slower than I anticipated and would like, but its happening.
Thank you HG, and all the others here.
You summed it up perfectly Supernova DE. That’s exactly how it is. To the letter, same cycle here. When you are getting the hit, it seems worth the misery. I read somewhere in here that humans forget pain. (Women especially or there would be many more only children!) When the rush is over, that familiar pain sets in and so the cycle begins again. One of my favorite T Swift lyrics is, “I forget about you long enough to forget why I needed to.” ~All Too Well from the Red album.
Here’s a song for you. (Don’t worry, it’s not Taylor Swift.)
https://youtu.be/22zB6Soc2Gk
MB,
I don’t mind Taylor Swift at all!! Actually, I think she is very talented and her lyrics often have double meanings and are quite clever. I also have three young girls so I hear A LOT of her music haha!!
Yes, it is very easy to forget pain, both physical and emotional. I’m quite sure we are designed that way on purpose, as a defense mechanism.
I will not reach out to contact him or provoke a hoover, but I also am realistic and know that I will hear from him at some point in the future. I don’t know yet how I will handle it, I’m sure it will depend on how much time has gone by. I’ll be more likely to engage in some type of conversation if more time has lapsed. I wouldn’t trust myself at this point to even try to have a simple conversation with him.
I realize that much of my attachment to him is not about “him” as a person (ie. his looks, his traits, his seduction), but about something I felt was lacking in my life. Excitement, lust, adventure, etc. I hate to be a cliché middle aged mom trying to feel young again…..but I think that’s a big part of how it happened. I’m trying to find the joys and excitements in my everyday life, and its working for me for now.
I realized the other day that I don’t even think of him by name anymore, just as “the narc”. I’ve depersonalized him in my thoughts to some degree. That’s probably how he thinks of me – “that empath that gives me so much delicious challenge fuel” haha.
Supernova DE, I’m glad somebody likes Taylor! My thirst for adventure and excitement is the attraction for me too. Maybe we should just skydive instead!
Supernova DE…You have no idea how happy I was to see this post after a devastating evening of my own vodka induced stupid. The shame from being duped like this is tremendous. It has been 5 months since discard/escape and until last night I had done well with NC for the most part, especially with the fact that his little hole in the wall bar (he opened with my replacement) is a residential block and a half from my apartment.
So much for the tenure I had going. I got home last night and walked my damn self right up to the bar where he was standing so stoically behind. His face was surprised. He slid me a beer, loaded the juke box with credits for me, and like I was no one, he proceeded to tell the other 2 patrons to have a good night and left. I thought, “No chance in hell mister are you going to slip away without words for what it took me to come over here; the streak I broke to come over here to be heard!” I followed him out where I calmly said, “I haven’t spoken to you in 5 months and that’s all you got for me?” He replied, “I gotta work tomorrow honey.” I thought to myself, “Mother F*$#er.” Not saying another word, I turned and started walking home as he got in his truck and drove off. He didn’t even bother to drive past me so I could flip him off as he passed. He drove the other way. By then I was furious, I started a tirade of texts to his number (that I had to Google to get because I had deleted it months ago) stating I know who he is and to let me know if he is ever interested in knowing why this keeps happening to him, wondering if the reason he is telling my replacement that I am running his mechanical business is so he could blame me for running it into the ground when it finally crumbles, suggesting that she must be getting stale by now, and the sex would have been on fire if he would have just turned around; blah, blah, blah. He didn’t respond to any of my fueled rants.
I am not sure of what I even wanted to achieve by going over there. Quench an undying thirst? Bring a hunger strike to an end?
This morning I lie in bed, hungover (not to mention the physical hangover) consumed with shame and remorse for my foolish and miscalculated actions, but grateful for no response (Jesus Christ, imagine if I had woke up to his face in my bed? Good God!), as I retreat to HG’s global harem for comfort. I am riddled with anger for allowing myself to cave.
I feel more undone than ever. I feel unfinished business has never been more unfinished. I feel I need a new point of no return. I need a cancel/clear. A new final two cents. A new said peace. A stronger ending statement that brings forth/back my dignity as I walk away from him. A new and different hunger strike has begun. Now I thirst for it to be fixed. F#@&!
As much as I want to stay in this bed and go back to sleep to forget about the blunder that has me wrecked today, I’m getting up now to go to work. Worried of what’s to come now that he knows I’m still in his grips. A new smear campaign perhaps? An invited hoover so he can collect on my texted offerings? F@#&! F@#&! F@#&!
How do I allow someone so vile continue to occupy space in my being?
I see you HG, shaking your finger and nodding your head at me saying, “I told you that this would happen. You should not have done that, Amanda. You know better.”
This cannot happen again.
Amanda,
I’m glad my post helped you see we all go through it. All of our situations are slightly different, but also so much the same.
You are being honest with yourself regarding what happened, it was brave of you to write all of that here.
Think back through the last few days…what can you pinpoint that triggered you to make contact? Was it an event, a certain feeling, a reminder of him? If you can get those clues, it will help you down the line.
We, of course, as empaths blame ourselves excessively and self-flagellate. But remember, we are human, we make mistakes, we learn from every situation we are put in.
Amanda im seething with anger for you !! he made me angry and I don’t even know him …but I know how it feels
Supernova DE…the amount of self awareness that I have been working on the past several months is overwhelming. It seems that the more I experience interaction with others lately, I am becoming more and more aware and recognizing how poorly my boundaries are set in every aspect of my life. I recall reading in a prior post and relating to someone else’s idea that before he came along, the ignorance in not knowing what I am was indeed bliss. Just chalking another one up to having a broken picker or just another frog experience. That was much easier than opening Pandora’s box of who I am, identifying my part in all of this and putting a label on me as an Empath and highly sensitive person. I hate that he is the one who has given me this gift of opportunity to embrace. I hate that he is the catalyst in my growth. I believe this to be the trigger and what caused me to snap last night with alcohol assisting. Livid inside.
Amanda,
I get what you are saying about awareness vs. ignorant bliss. I actually felt much worse about the entire relationship with narc once I fully realized what was going on. Of course, this is normal considering you’re finding out it was all smoke and mirrors, lies, etc. BUT, I felt it gave me a freedom in my head to act crazy and irrational (even if I only thought that way and didn’t act on it). I felt that freedom because narc doesn’t care no matter what I do. While before I knew the truth, my sense of pride would have stopped me from texting after a “break up”. But there’s no need for pride when the other person doesn’t respect you no matter what. I probably would’ve done better at NC if I hadn’t known, even though I wouldn’t have known it as NC. I’m sure not everyone is like that, but I feel it is the case for me.
That being said, I’ve learned a lot since finding this site. About myself, as well as about others. I can identify my mother, mother in law, sister in law, as well as others in my life as narcs now. If helps me know how to deal with them in the future and it will save me some grief.
If you haven’t been to therapy, I’d recommend it so you have an ally on the self awareness journey. You don’t need to talk to them about the nex or NPD, you have HG for that. But you do need to work on YOU. A good therapist can help so much. It sucks in the beginning, it hurts a lot to dredge up all the bullshit from the past, but then you can say “aha, yep, here is how that affected me, it makes sense now.”
That’s just my two cents. You are in good company. Take a breath, be easy on yourself.
Thank you candleglow2…just knowing I am supported by others like me makes this more bearable.
Amanda, You wanted to be heard. That’s why you went over there. That is normal. Don’t beat yourself up about it. It’s okay to want that even if you know that you will never get that satisfaction from a narc. Also realize, though, that the narc doesn’t read it the same way you do – he doesn’t see it as humiliating you. He just sees it as fuel. To me that is kind of the silver lining because part of feeling humiliated is thinking that the other person has pulled one over on you but narcs just see it all as a kind of undifferentiated mass of fuel. I was so stressed all the time that I once cornered mine in the middle of the FR and yelled at him that he was going to pay for my therapy. Of course he didn’t but nor did he really understand what was bothering me. He fueled up, waited for me to simmer down, and on we went. It never came up again. It wouldn’t have made a difference had we not been in the FR. Even when I called him a psychopath post-escape, he still said he wanted to see me. It’s all fuel off a duck’s back – good fuel, bad fuel, makes no difference. Hope this makes sense and helps you to see that he didn’t win and you didn’t lose. Of course as HG says, not a good idea but mostly because of what it does to you to try to be heard by someone who cannot hear. It is so frustrating.
I would say #5. Dummies pop into my mind everyday even if just for a moment.
Another awesome poll, HG.
I didn’t vote as none apply to my situation.
Once he cheated, prior to even knowing he was narcissist. The relationship was over for me.
So, it was easy to keep no contact.
Why I do not share personal details here or slam him or really discuss him.
Why I asked long ago for family and friends not to discuss him..
Why I blocked him in all ways.
Why I removed mutual friends who were loyal to him and knew he was cheating.
I suppose if I had to choose one option pre leaving. It would be the need to have my say in how I was treated,
Which I did have my say. Which he denied and turned back on me.
Having our say, doesn’t even really help to feel better about it all.
Moving on helps more.
Knowing why is the way he is makes no contact even more easy.
Learning here, helps me help others.
My 3 choices:
-The need to gain answers. (I think this connects to my strong need for closure)
-The need to help him. (To help him be who he appeared to be in the Golden Period. A wonderful time)
-The need to have my say about how I feel and how I’ve been treated. (Over the years, I have done this already. Truly nothing left to say. This has been going on since 2002. In intervals, from 1-2 years. Current interval is the longest at 4 years so far. Still feel I need to discuss with him.)
I feel like I have been poisoned by him. HG has helped me eliminate a great deal of that poison . Memories come back at times. When I block him, I feel nervous, stressed and cruel.
Another great poll and question to reflect on.
I chose reminders of the narc, sharing interests, wanting to know what hes doing in life.
The biggest reason is codependance. Weve both filled voids thru our relationship and have become entwined. In the process ive lost who i am but since being here and learning about narcissism im also learning about myself thru my experience and striving to find me again. Who am i aside from him. Im also reevaluating the relationship and what it really is. I no longer look at it from the lens of how hes hurt me but rather untangling it and learning the lessons im meant to learn from this and there are some very valuable lessons and growth. Ive used him as well and i see my part in the equation.
My codependancy on him and unfinished business in my life and fear of dealing with that is what keeps me from going true no contact and remaining that way.
I also love and care about him but more from someone whose been with him for so long not from being in love with him. I never truely was only in lust.
I would also miss things we share together and common interests.
Im not sure ill need to go full no contact with him but i can see spending less time together and moving in different directions with our lives.
Chihuahuamom – I can relate to your point about going NC. I am working on detangling as well. Need to research the Codependent role to better understand and see how/if that applies to me. Wish you peace and enlightenment through the process. 🦋
HG – Thanks for your time and help ⭐️
Blue1
You are welcome.
In all honesty, I still love my Narc. However, I am working on this problem.
I feel bad about the issues he faced in childhood. Then, I feel bad about blocking him.
However, enabling him is not good for either of us. Bottom line, I am trying to keep him blocked on my phone. When I try to break up in person he gets angry and says “How can you turn you back on me?”
Thanks for sharing your expertise HG.
Thanks to this community as well. I appreciate your feedback and viewpoint.
You are welcome.
Quasi, beautiful reflection and explanation.
Thankfully I do not dream since I can’t sleep. I am overwhelmed by random memories throughout each day, however there is no pining. Just a sense of shock.
My husband thinks I just watch too many crime TV shows. If this were the case I could spot a serial killer from 30 paces.
My friend thinks he is a narc, but more opportunistic than planned. She maintains that after all the years with him she knows all his manipulations. When he came into town and made no attempt to contact she took that as a sign that it was all truly over.
There are moments when I am plagued by self doubt. Did I read too much into everything? Am I avoiding responsibility?
Then I come here and I know I am not alone.
Self doubt is lethal poison. YOU had your experiences, YOU know what happened. Trust your perceptions. Time fades the sleeplessness and eating disorders, in the meantime, be kind to yourself and give yourself the beautiful, endless love you poured out for your narc. You deserve it.
Well said. And so true. Someone wrote in another blog about people in Japan filling in cracks with gold (my apologies I can’t remember who). I think that is a perfect image.
Glitter and Gold by Barnes Courtney is an excellent song that falls in line with this.
Dear kelleygurl116,
Exactly …. so so true …. excellent comment
You’ve nailed it beautifully
Luv Bubbles xx
You are definitely not alone wounded.
You are not alone in your feelings of self doubt, or feeling of shock, or unwanted memories.
Your also not alone in your want for something different.
You will define your own journey to get to that place and you do not have to be alone in it.
X
The hardest aspect of establishing NC- the narc
The hardest aspect of maintaining NC- the intrusive thoughts; the desire for revenge. The processing of years of stuffed intense emotions and experiences.
My NC regime works well as I have the advantage of living in a different city (I relocated) and I’m not one to express my suffering to many… very few in fact.
Thanks to you HG, I don’t pine or reminisce. However, I’m adjusting to the gaping hole that exists because there is nothing to hold onto from the entanglement (such a great adjective for the experience) which lasted for 16 years.
I’m happy to report that his hold on my mind is loosening….12 months after my escape. Thanks to myself, HG and the community here.
Reminded today of the line
‘not my circus, not my clown(s)’
Found some very interesting info today by Ross Rosenberg (author of ‘the Human Magnet Syndrome’) amongst which was the ‘Don’t absorb’ Technique for dealing with emotionally manipulative people in our lives. It gives assertiveness/ detachment skills to practise, to empower us. It’s on YouTube
There is very interesting info about co-dep’y and narcissism as a survival mechanism from childhood trauma. Made so much sense.
Just watched the Observe Don’t Absorb video, Caroline. Thanks for the reference. It was exactly what I did before I decided to escape. Unfortunately, I didn’t otherwise follow the instructions in When You UnMask a Covert Narcissist! Ugh. So I got a lot more manipulation post-escape as he made himself into the victim, just as the video says will happen.
That was an excellent video to watch Caroline.
Why I try to avoid negative / toxic people and the drama they try to stir up.
I do not even observe, I remove myself.
Otherwise, emotional thinking can become consuming and hurtful.
HG, I know you do not use the term covert narcissist.
But when that type feel they may be exposed,
Do then immediately feign victimhood?
To shift blame to others.
Rally the troops, so to speak.
Because they feel a loss of control,
when their behaviour is being called into question ?
Is that a common tactic to avoid full exposure?
I know from experience that is when they try to smear you.
Make it like you are the problem.
To deflect from themselves.
Is this the only time a narcissist would fake being victim,
Fear of exposure? Culpability?
I mean a non victim type. As the victim types are always victims.
You have shown us examples of such through this blog.
Where certain individuals exhibit such behaviour.
But, do so in a very overt manner.
It is not about faking being victim, the narcissist truly believes that we are the victims of your unreasonable, unnecessary and disloyal behaviour owing to the narcissistic perspective.
Cognitive dissonance?
When MRN told me that it wasn’t pleasant to be around people who attack you or something like that, I just looked at him incredulously. But now I fully understand that this is how he sees it. It goes along with the impossibility of explaining what it is that they do that is so disturbing and upsetting.
Funny story: When MRN and I were mutually deciding to end it, he told me his brother was caught having a four year affair and it had broken up his family. ‘My wife’ (IPPS) said MRN, ‘said well, she (brother’s IPPS) is so difficult,’ as if brother’s IPPS deserved it. Narc did not see the parallels or that he was basically making IPPS out to be a bitch because he was cheating on her too.
I later tried to explain it to him – you actually stood there and let your wife, who you are cheating on, blame your sister-in-law for your brother’s infidelity?? Now I understand that MRN had IPPS in a golden period (he hoovered and tried to get me back to the FR after this), so he let her think that she was golden. Talk about manipulation.
Thank you HG.
What subsides this belief, fuel to repair the wounding ?
Simple: curiosity, or is it—the horror of spellbound fascination?
He discards and ignores brutally—-or manages to convince me he does, while *always* hoovering me. Just when i was sure Narcy didn’t care, he then made me think he wanted me dead, then—-oh look, there he is again, demanding I surrender to him and “beg his forgiveness”. He is God and my new petname is: spineless, amphibian chameleon worm. Worm for short. Really.
I attract narc-envy and possessiveness, a lot. Not regular narcs. Apparently i’m the bpd short-skirt walking down the asd dark alley.
I really need more confidence, but where do you get it?
Dear beautiful /iroll,
You’ve always had it my lovely …. look within
😘
Luv Bubbles xx
December 2016, Just Married! October 2017, I caught my spouse in bed with someone else. I was discarded with no explanation. Served divorce papers by the sheriff. The next day served with an emergency order of protection and future courtdates. I tried to file a counter order of protection but was not allowed. I was smeared on social media, public and private. October through December 2017, I went to court and basically agreed to everything I was falsely accused of just to keep the peace and save myself the embarrassment in a full courtroom and I was alone with no legal representation or witnesses. I am serving a 2 year order of protection. No Contact was a Blessing in Disguise for me. May 2018, my exspouse hoovered and contacted me by phone and discovered I had more Fury than Fuel. My exspouse did another smear campaign on social media, public and private indicating i violated the order of protection. I then immediately contacted the police to inform them that I did not initiate any contact. The police told me to save all phone calls and texts for proof of documentation. I have not heard from my exspouse since.
I have a no contact order in place, “Mr Happy” (As I like to call him) likes to still contact, especially on Anniversaries, Birthdays for myself and the children. I don’t answer, he has a lawyer now that he likes to converse through. 🤦🏽♀️
It’s not the golden period memories that haunt me, as I now know they were a smoke screen for the explosions that were to come. It’s now knowing that it was an act, not real & I been used for a purpose, that does my head in because then I over think about what he was actually really up too and with who and when….. that’s what I find to be the worst. No contact, fine, I have nothing to say to him, I get it now, it’s not worth it but my own mind, I wish I could put a no contact order on that little voice sometimes. Well I hope he enjoys his Permanent Residency Visa – nicely played “Mr Happy”.
Check out Lars Von Trier’s new film “The House That Jack Built” (or DON’T because Lars is a sadistic troll and the film is gruesomely violent) —about a psychopath called “Mr Sophistication”.
Dearest /iroll,
I had a sneak peak …. not my cuppa tea or coffee I’m afraid …. I’m not really into psycho, horror or scarey stuff…. there’s plenty on the news each day
I usually check most things people suggest here … it’s always eye opening
Thank you cup cake …. now back to “Happy Feet” 😂
Luv Bubbles xx
😘
Dear Mr Tudor,
I stumbled across your site when I was looking for answers that NO ONE else could provide
I needed to understand ME before I could understand the narcissists behaviour in my life
YOU have helped me realise I’m a magnet, I lacked boundaries, I am an emotional thinker and my desire to fix and help people
Going “no contact” with the weasel was easy… when I caught him out on a lie …. that was it for me … I was damned sure to have the final say and I did
Fixing me was No 1 priority, so I didn’t make the same mistakes … NO MORE ….NEVER AGAIN
I’m living in the “present” now (a real sense of calmness came over me one day reading one of your articles and I just stopped rehashing the whys and wherefores of their behaviour over and over) … just gave me headaches…. they are what they are and they can’t change .. I needed to accept it and move on……. but….. always “knowing the narcissist”
I felt I didn’t really have any issues with no contact… once I understood by your confirmation …I just did it … no regrets
This was all about ME
I am the WINNER
Mr Tudor…. you threw me my life line and I wholeheartedly thank you
Very thought provoking poll … luv them
Luv Bubbles xx
I have not been able to go no contact yet ..I have tried to end the relationship and he always hoovers me back..yet I dont like him and know now what he is.. Thanks to Mr Tudor I am learning and getting stronger ..I was always a very strong person and am in shock that I have been taken in emotionally …I feel a fool and he makes me so angry that even when I ignore him I can’t get him out of my head .. and it is only an on-line relationship ..so in one sense im lucky but in another it makes me feel even more weak and foolish and angry at myself !!
Candleglow
You could be describing my relationship with my Moron in Munich a year ago. Your description was just like how I felt. I still feel foolish for falling for his nonsense. Even long after I figured out he was a midrange narc, I tried to stay friends with him online. There was no hope. He insisted on trying to control me and “punish” me and that just wasn’t going to happen. I’m not sitting on a shelf, either, waiting for him to deign to contact me. His idea of a relationship was purely one-way.
I cut mine off last November. I do still think of him occasionally, but not all the time like I used to. My bottom line is that I am not willing to be in a relationship with anyone who doesn’t respect/admit/acknowledge my needs. Even just talking to someone like that will drag down your spirit.
Oh Windstorm Thankyou for replying and Im so happy you were able to cut him off, I know I need to do the same and as for one sided you could not have described it better ..I will one day soon have the courage to do what you did ..or should I say in my case The Anger!! ..and my spirit has been dragged down ..its so strange when I start reading all the blogs that the very helpful HG has done and finding myself nodding and thinking yes yes that’s what he does.. your reply has helped so much ..I dont feel so alone now …Thankyou again and have a lovely weekiend ..
You’re welcome, candleglow. You are never alone. You have a lovely weekend, too!
I struggle with not thinking about him as he is in my thoughts most of the time. I still feel very addicted to him and I literally feel like I am dying. I really miss the physical intimacy as he was the most exciting man I have ever been with. He woke up my sexuality and for the first time in my life, I felt like a woman. I had reactions that I thought were impossible for me. Yeah. Life is hard.
BrokenRainbow,
That addicted feeling is very hard to fight, I completely understand. My narc woke up my sexuality too, made me feel alive, and established a sense of trust which, though it was all false, felt very real to me. He may have woken you up, BR, but what he woke up was already there. You don’t need him around to feel like an awakened woman! It feels that way right now because of the addiction and the emotional thinking. It did to me for a long time after, and then felt numb for a time too, but I prob have a healthier approach to sex now than I ever did before the narc.
Mary
https://youtu.be/k6YCxXQ6Scw
RIP Aretha Franklin 😔💔😘 *Sam Cooke Original but she nails it!!
*something else, but you don’t have the option for that.*
Presque vu,
This is such a good song, I know many sang it, soul singers, you can’t sing this song without soul. Fundamentally about civil rights, but so relatable for people in any regard, who need change, who are striving for something different.
My favourite version is Otis Redding’s-
https://youtu.be/yyhL0ioST_U
When that horn comes in at the end – oh my, his soul was amazing, when he sings you feel it.
Aretha was Amazing, thank you for sharing the link, I had not heard her song this song before. Again the soul in her voice could climb some heights ..
I also wanted to thank you for some of your other very comical posts of late, I was in stitches.
Thank you quasi!!
He is the master and he owns that song!! A song that changed my life.
Sometimes I just want to escape, I want to laugh. I like to tease and I love banter!
Still so curious about the socks! I have a theory you see!
Anyway I’m purging tonight, last song before I lay my head.
https://youtu.be/dlJew-Dw87I
Thanks again Miss Q! 😘 I enjoy your posts very much!!
I am in partial no contact – he is blocked, I don’t answear when he tries to hoover but sometimes I look what he is doing online. It’s because I want to understand this disorder, I look for evidences of his fakery, of his malign toxic personality. And every time I see he does exactly the same things he has done to me (manipulation, devaluation, triangulation) to the new girls, I feel relief “you see, he is psycho, there was nothing wrong with me, he is just a psycho and he will do the same shit to everyone”.
Respectfully, you need to stop that – looking to see what he’s doing online. You’re giving yourself “logical” excuses when it’s really emotional thinking. There is real, scientific proof of why victims feel the addiction to their abuser that they do, and the only way out is cold turkey and white-knuckle through the bad days while doing the best you know how for yourself.You don’t need proof. Seeking outside validation of your own perceptions and feelings (while discounting your inner knowing) is one of the things that got you ensnared in the first place. Again, you know what happened and you know how you feel about it. Trust yourself. There’s no need for anyone else to “prove you’re right”. Understanding the disorder doesn’t have to have any relation to what he’s doing. It only has to do with keeping yourself safe in the future. Knowledge is power and you need to use it for your own benefit.
Kelleygirl
Agreed. 100 likes.
kelleygurl116
Agree! The times I slipped and looked at social media, it made my emotional thinking worse. It definitely made the addiction more difficult and it set me back. The other thing is when he smears me, I do not see it and therefore that aspect does not affect me.
Karen
Do yourself a huge favour and do not look what he is doing online. It will make your emotions worse BUT there is a much higher chance you will get hoovered. It is amazing how easy it is to unblock someone and pick up a phone WHEN your emotional thinking gets out of hand. I know this by experience.
Dear kellygurl116,
Absolutely Brilliant!
I will see NarcAngel’s 100 and raise her another 💯 likes
Luv Bubbles xx
Still wanting the physical intimacy is a big problem for me. I have been “painted black” almost two years ago. I was discarded, there has been no contact afterwards from either side. Still the desire won’t go away.
Whenever I am with other people I hope to meet a man who is able to stir my interest. Didn’t happen so far. It feels as if I am seeing right through them and their respective perceptions of reality. Nice people, ok. We can have coffee…
4 and 5 by far still have me by the balls after the 3/17/2018 escape. Unable to keep myself from searching public record so I can marvel in his series of misfortunate events ie, pending court for battery on the gal before me, license suspension again for unpaid fines, house being foreclosed on, sister dumping his business books in his lap to do himself, and stalking new IPPS facebook waiting for the bomb to drop. So grateful that I bailed when I did. A hoover via email happened a few days ago as an effort to give his sister my email address. He cc’d me on it saying “Here it is”. I didn’t have one incline to respond. It’s the thoughts that consume me and keep me from achieving 100% no contact. I suppose they will fade over time and as I become more and more distracted.
HG, looking over the responses here and on other posts, it seems that another common denominator in narc victims is shame and embarrassment at having been taken in for as long as they were and/or in being duped at all. Do you find this to be so? And if so, is the creation of toxic shame something that the narc would deliberately construct? Thanks.
I agree. It is not a deliberate construction but a consequence of the instinctive behaviours.
HG: Thank you.
I think it is a fortuitous corollary for a N-parent that their children are mired under the weight of shame as a consequence of the parental abusive behaviour. It could be argued that this is especially true where there is incest.
Little ones don’t have words for it, and they sure aren’t going to tell anyone else, to avoid feeling embarrassed, and facing spiteful repercussions. The abuse continues.
From the beginning, I don’t remember a time when I didn’t feel ashamed of me; I was full of self-rejection. Everything that happens is viewed through a skewed lens of shame. I couldn’t recognise it as such until adulthood, because that was my ‘normal’. I wasn’t aware there was an alternative.
I despised any guy who liked me, and treated him badly once he fell for me; very N-like behaviour.
My N-grandfather kept that shame culture alive and well. He kept up the emotional abuse with my Mum until his death. He belittled me for crying over my grandma’s impending death from pancreatic cancer. WTF.
N-sister can only function to produce a feeling of shame and never being good enough whenever you interact with her. She can’t give what she doesn’t have.
Good point KG116
Abuse always loads victims with toxic shame and can take ages to process.
Hi kellgirl116
I’m guilty of the toxic shame. Pun intended.
I’d even be so bold to argue that it’s transferred/projected onto us, as well as created as a consequence of being fooled.
I agree. Shame is “I’m wrong” – as in, there’s something fundamentally wrong with me, defective. Guilt is “I DID SOMETHING wrong.” Guilt has value when you really were a shit – make amends and move on – everyone unintentionally hurts others sometimes. Shame has no value, except perhaps to the narc in the context of control and keeping us hoping that they will somehow grant us absolution for our “defect”, and we believe that therein lies our redemption. It’s a lie.
The projection of shame, it seems to me – although HG says it’s not intentionally created – is a reflection of the narc’s own shame at being defective, regardless of their level of awareness, and as such it is a perhaps unconscious, perhaps deliberate, attempt to push that toxicity out of themselves and onto us.
Windstorm, you aren’t alone in your embarrassment. And thankfully mine is far far away.
I would love revenge, but not really willing to go up against someone with no remorse. I’m feeling a lot better since being on here talking honestly about everything.
Eventually he will be out of my head.
My answer is not directly from the list.
My answer is –
My emotional attachment to what I initially perceived to be, and then just wanted to be real.
That is the core of any other responses I could have to this question.
It could be that we live in the same town, that I have seen him a few times due to this. It could be that he knows where I live as he has been here many times. It could be that we share a social group, it could be that we have mutual “friends “. It could be that he has some of my music still, it could be that he started to teach me an instrument and still at times when I try and play it, I think of him. It could be so many things If I decided to reason it as such.
However these would be empirical reasons / evidence to justify potential difficulty in setting up ( a version of) no contact.
I say a version of no contact as
I would be astounded if anyone can say they are completely and resolutely no contact, if the five fingers spoken of are the “definition” of no contact .. if you can stop thoughts coming into your head without being in an unconscious state I salute you!
The truth of the matter in my mind is that none of these reasons would mean anything or have any bearing, if I did not have an emotional attachment to this person.
It was my emotional attachment to my version of him that made starting, and maintaining no contact in the early stages pre and post disengagement difficult/ painful for me.
It was this emotional attachment that caused me to self doubt to reflect, to tear myself apart. It was this emotional link that had me believing I could feel his pain when he was no where near me.
He disengaged from me just over 7 months ago ( although I was not in direct contact with him or pursuing this for at minimum a month before. )
I have maintained my version of no contact in that he has remained blocked on all electronically accessible means ( that he uses).
And that I have not overtly reacted / responded to being in his presence when this has come to be.
My emotional attachment to him made it painful and difficult, but not impossible.
( today’s footnote is an acknowledgment of my shelf ipss role and short time span of engagement- although this is relative and does not mean that the depth of my emotional attachment was any less real or felt)
Ha, ha, Quasi!
I can’t even keep unwanted thoughts about my narcs from popping into my mind when I’m unconscious! Those are the basis of my nightmares! 😝
Hi windstorm,
I can only guess that the “fifth finger” of not thinking about the narcissist, would be ruminating within consciousness about that person, so diving into the thought cycles with memories, wondering and questioning.
Stopping thoughts even occurring is in my understanding not possible..
Even then I would not have been able to do the not thinking about him thing early on in NC, as he had a strong ever presence and repeatedly came to my mind.
I dreamt of him too at this earlier stage, unpleasant dreams which were essentially memories/ flashes of memories reforming, more so of the last time I had physical contact with him. I felt it was my subconscious mind trying to re-write what happened, re-living it to try and create a different outcome.
Thankfully I have not dreamt of him for quite a few months now, and his ever presence is no longer present, I only think of him now when I read and reflect here.
I might revisit my notes on Jung’s dream theories, I remember liking how he presented a theory of dreams, it made sense to me at the time I was reading his works. My memory is not what it was though so will need to look at this again.
I have been having some elaborate and very real feeling dreams recently, it’s amazing to think about the powerful influences that can penetrate our subconscious mind and then the unconscious dreamscape.
In one particular dream I’m sure I have an inner monologue going on, thoughts springing into dream me’s mind.. this entertained me as I thought even dream me has a busy head .. lol..
On a serious note windstorm I hope the nightmares subside and change for you, into just dreams, and not memories. X
Quasi,
This made me chuckle to read:
” In one particular dream I’m sure I have an inner monologue going on, thoughts springing into dream…”
You would be one to dream in “monologue”! 🙂
(Don’t take that to heart…I enjoy your monologues! I just thought that was interesting too)
Also, interesting reading regarding your seduction (Thank-you for sharing how it happened)…but gives me pause for thought when I thinking of taking up new hobbies and seeking out a “teacher”…
Who cares,
It’s totally cool to find this funny, it was meant to be, I laugh at myself and the absurdity of it…
I have found some of my old notes on Jung and the man knows his stuff!
The dreams are totally the dominant shadow traits that I have been accepting to the whole. Trying to act out wants.
They are partying like it’s 1999 in my dream- prince would be so proud for many reasons… lol..
The thoughts I noticed dream me having were succinct and profound.. so definitely another version of me.. I just found it funny that I had thoughts within a dream…
Ah, the monologue, it’s undeniably me. And SMH confirmed that my ability to write epic posts does in fact prove I’m not a narcissist! Lol..
This reminds me of Friedrich Nietzsche, not that he was a narcissist- no idea but I would think unlikely. But a quote from him which was a very narcissistic statement –
“ I write in a sentence , what others write in a book”
I am clearly no Nietzsche….
Re- taking up a new hobby – I did think – damn I gave advise the other week, which advocated for the person to find interests and new hobbies …
I think it’s time for me to stop giving advise … 😆
Qx
Quasi,
A narcissist, you are not! Indeed not.
Verbose? Oh yes, but in a good way…I’m the same, just not so much here, in real life actually…especially when I have to explain my past relationship. People ask: what happened? I say: have you got an hour or two? (I have written some fairly lengthy posts myself, when first starting to comment on HG’s blog and probably still would if I had more time…)
I’m quite fond of Carl Jung and the study of dreams as well…used to do extensive reading on related topics…when I was studying in Toronto; I left a little too much money at The World’s Biggest Bookstore (sadly, no longer in business) spent mainly in Jungian Psychology and similar topics…feels like a lifetime ago however. Funny, I have documented dreams in the past but I rarely dreamed during my entanglement and I never dream these days.
As for advice to take up new pursuits…I would not refrain from doing so after hearing your story but I would proceed with caution, yes – as I do with anything post-entanglement!
Who cares…. thank you . Xx
Quasi,
We wouldn’t have you any other way.
We appreciate your intelligence, depth, ability to articulate, your perspective and life experience.
I don’t want any of the precious individuals here to feel they are saying too much; our participation and sharing our hearts and minds enriches the experience at narcsite.
Thank you x
Quasi
That was a very powerful post. I can relate to what you say. I, too, am a shelf ipss. Mine lives in the same town and he also taught me an instrument and introduced me to lots of music. I feel sorry for mine as he is a MLV narc and therefore does not know what he is, nor does he cause hurt out of malice. He acts on instinct. I hope you heal from your encounter. xx
Hi geyserempath,
Thank you, I appreciate you sharing this with me.
They sound very similar, the narcissist I knew was a victim LMR. He very much went on instinct also although I feel he knew what his actions meant to others, and that he hurt them.
I do not mean that he undertook certain actions to purposefully hurt through malice, but that he was aware of the hurt he caused, and numb to any feelings of affect, so he did not care to do anything differently.
I used to think that I felt sorry for him as I was made aware of his past and how he developed his narcissistic defence mechanism. I now feel that this feeling is just acceptance of who is is.
I am no longer a shelf IPSS, I am someone that he knew, someone that he conquered, I have merely joined the list of the nameless that failed him.
He was not a musician as in his only career but he was very good and talented in playing my all time favourite instrument, the one I pick out in all music I listen to. He played in a few different bands and would do session work for people at times.
He offered to teach me as he knew it would bind me closer to him, this was at a point I was a NISS ( the promotion to IPSS was short lived and I withdrew).
I was only just covering my bills and mortgage at this point in time, so he offered to teach me for free, knowing that this would benefit him not only in spending one to one time with me to influence and get positive attention, but also to create a sense of “owing him”. He was also devaluing his IPPS, so that time with me was balancing this, as he was getting lashings of admiration and positive attention from me.
We only had a few lessons before he used it as a test and tool to gain negative attention from me, ( although I did not really provide it, I was neutral externally and an emotional mess internally)!
He did this through cancelling lessons close to time, then not turning up to other planned engagements with me.. all of them were tests and I do not think I responded as he wanted, it amazes at times to think how he persisted to engage with me. I guess it was always about achieving his end goal, and that was to have me ( I’m Married)!
I looked for another tutor a couple of months later, It was before disengagement, but at a time I had withdrawn from him. Let’s just say it was not easy to find someone that he did not know him, but I did..
To be honest I’m in a good place in my journey now, my posts can be deep because I am. I have also found that allowing myself to feel what I felt and giving myself permission to explore the meanings of my experiences, have helped me.
I hope that you have been able to get off the shelf like a stealth ninja and have escaped him.. I also hope that you are healing from your time with the narcissist.. thank you again for your kind words ( and for reading my epic reply… I have been told I’m quite expressive.. lol)
Quasi,
Yes, that’s the main driver: emotional attachment.
I voted for the flooding thoughts about the narc as a result of this.
I couldn’t vote for the ‘want to help the narcissist’ as I don’t want that as solidly as formulated here. But when I first left him that was the threat to my NC – I wanted to help him connect (to me 😉
It still is, to some extent: when I imagine his loneliness (which he described to me during our time together), I still wish I could help him ease his pain.
Hi shesaw,
In the moments that you were with him his pain was eased, he was absorbing your care and attention and this did ease things for him. For the time period you were in his world you were helping him.
The key thing to remember is that Everyone who enters their world does this, be that positive or negative attention they all ease the pain of the void by filling it up a little.
The question is to what end would you feel able to do this? In the knowing that the tank has a hole in the bottom that can not be fixed. So It can never be full and has completely dried out by morning.
I have come to see no contact as as defence mechanism, a procedure of risk assessment and and management.
Reducing risk of influence at a time when you need to stop, breath, assess, understand, and start to heal.
Referring to the see saw article, it clearly depicts the ride of a cycle with the narcissist from idealisation- to – devaluation- to – respite periods- to vanishing act disengagement and the final fall alone.
The ride is relentless for a reason, the narcissist does not want you to be able to stop and breath, assess and think… they do not want you to escape as they need to be in control of the “end of the relationship “ because they are the powerful one right?
They need to keep you on the ride of the high and low, the unknown the unexpected.
In my opinion no contact is hated by the narcissist because the person has left the ride, either in escape or disengagement. They have not only left the ride but they have stoped .. when we can stop and our head can orientate to real time and space – not the narcissist’s heady reality- we can open our eyes properly and see.
Leading to no contact the person has been able to stop , breath, assess, understand and most importantly they are priotising themselves and not the narcissist. They are protecting themselves and prove that they value themselves more then the narcissist to be able to do undertake no contact.
It would probably be seen as a criticism to the narcissist, when the person evidences that they value themselves more then they value the narcissist. Because they need to, to see and survive..
Apologies shesaw- my initial thought has ran into a monologue! Thank you for reading my initial post and responding to it. Thank you also for reading this one if you made it this far. lol..
Hey Quasi – just rereading one of your monologues 😉 and this struck me:
“It would probably be seen as a criticism to the narcissist, when the person evidences that they value themselves more then they value the narcissist.”
It seems as clear as day now…but for most of my adult life I questioned why when I made decisions *for me, * inevitably, I somehow caused *hurt* to others…now I realize the others closest to me were narcs. Normals and empaths would either be indifferent or happy for someone to invest in *themselves.*
The hatred (felt for me) by my narcs was almost palpable, once I starting asserting my needs and boundaries. And reinforcement of these boundaries on my part results in their immediate claims of ‘victimization.’ They really do believe that they own you and caring for *yourself* is a denial of *their* rights of entitlement.
Their outrage and confusion when you start to set boundaries is scary to witness but also somehow very, very satisfying.
WhoCares
I completely agree with your comment to Quasi. I grew up believing I was a totally selfish person, because I was always being told that. I just assumed that doing, wanting, thinking anything for myself made me selfish. It took me twenty years in public work around non-narcs before I began to question this.
“The hatred (felt for me) by my narcs was almost palpable, once I starting asserting my needs and boundaries.”
Absolutely true.
Windstorm – Yes, you know what I’m saying. I’m realizing that it is hard to shake
as an adult and influences my every move. The feeling that you are somehow committing ‘treason’ by deciding things for yourself, by yourself…so hard to leave behind (I hit send earlier before checking/finishing my comment.)
WhoCares
Yes. It literally took me decades.
Hi Quasi
Tx for your reply and for the time you must have put in to write it.
I recognize my wish to help him ease his pain as a fallacy. Its like giving moral approval to my addiction : I give myself admission to go back to him (and let him manipulate me again).
To realize this is the succes to my NC so far.
Shesaw
“Its like giving moral approval to my addiction : I give myself admission to go back to him (and let him manipulate me again)”.
Love that.
Congratulations also on your progress.
NA,
Thank you. I wish I was where you already are. To receive your congratulations on my progress is like someone waving at me from a much wanted future.
I am so impatient and I wish he was gone from my mind already. He was, only he keeps coming back full force from time to time.
Then to go through the hard work of observing my mind trying to make me falter, feeling the wounds of the hooks which are recovering too damn slowly – there are those days that it’s such a boring and lonely fight.
Always happy to read your jokes on those days. Your encouragement is even better. Thanks again.
Me too – emotional attachment to what I wanted so badly to be real.
Also, in response to your later post, “he was aware of the hurt he caused, and numb to any feelings of affect, so he did not care to do anything differently.” Yes, exactly, although my MLV narc would bemoan the fact that everyone eventually turned against him, gaining sympathy and fuel from my responses, he continued to abuse me in every way that he claimed others abused him. He remains steadfast in his belief that “he didn’t do anything wrong”, and I think that (and anyone please chime in on this, I’d like to hear about everyone else’s experiences) his refusal to see and acknowledge his part in how circumstances arise is a defense mechanism that helps him – somehow – cope with what he is, regardless of his level of awareness of what he is.
Thank you kelleygurl116,
I think the statements that he has made are very much the projection of his defence mechanism. I’m not sure if it would be a refusal to accept but rather an instinct/ inability to see an alternative perspective that would threaten the perspective that he knows and clings to for reassurance.
His perspective is correct and yours is incorrect, In my view it would be linked to the ingrained black and white thinking – if they are right you are wrong.
I think that even greater narcissist’s with awareness would say they can cognitively see your perspective but this ability does not mean that they think your perspective is correct or accurate- unless of course the conclusion is the Same as theirs.
He remains steadfast in his belief because he is. He has done nothing wrong. I think the level of awareness definitely has a bearing in the certainty of this position, and his inability to see your perspective, when you try and tell him anything different.
Narcissism is a defence mechanism so every trait of this defence mechanism such as blame shifting, no accountability, Black and white thinking, and more are in place to help him cope with what he is.
Your narcissist does not know what he is, he has no concept of self and just feels the void.
In his world view everyone did turn against him, he speaks of this because this is the evidence that he has from every relationship he has had, they all fail him, they all leave ( probably because they wont tolerate more abuse) but his view would be different. It would be rejection and criticism.
I’m not sure If that is too helpful, when I read your posts I think your on point and I really like the way you articulate yourself..
my only last thought is that some of our questions will remain unanswerable, and sometimes we need to let them go when we let the narcissist go.
HG,
I wanted to apologise for not answering your poll properly, I’m sure they are helpful in providing statistical information, so my post going off on a deep tangent was probably not that helpful.
I have actually completed a vote properly now – for mind flooding with thoughts and memories of him.
This was the case in the early months due to his ever presence.
The other elements were practical issues and would not prevent me or really impact the implementation of NC.
It was my own mind that made it hard, my thoughts and my heart, they made it painful and this was in the core of my attachment to him.
Learning from you and consulting with you eradicated his ever presence.
Thank you is not enough, but it’s all I have.
LOL, Quasi. I am sure that is not ALL you have, at least I hope not! I enjoyed reading these posts – they made me think about a lot of things – the merry-go-round, the defense mechanism, the dreams – I am glad you are in a good place now.
I don’t really have the language to describe it but I think what we consider emotional attachment to a narc (who has no emotions – or not the corresponding ones) is actually a level of consciousness – maybe a level of subconsciousness where we ‘meet,’ which is why it emerges a lot in dreams and in our thoughts – like a script always running in the background. Mine possessed me like a ghost to the extent that I could feel him. Usually he was just there with me but once I actually embodied him – I became him looking at me looking at him. It happened when I sat down in a chair for a second to tie a shoe. In this chair we’d had a very intense interaction at the beginning of our relationship. I didn’t realize it meant anything to him but he kept bringing it up. He felt it too. In any case, I turned those ghost experiences over and over, looked at them every which way, and told him that we must have ‘cracked’ each other’s consciousness. I think I scared him because his language was very concrete and somatic. Mine was very abstract and mental. He experienced mental things corporeally while I experienced corporeal things mentally. Maybe that is what is meant by a mind-fuck! 🙂
Oh SMH ….. feeling a little bit embarrassed about this one now … head in hands … lol..
I had a proper emotional head on yesterday- a night out out, appears to have sorted me out though! Laughing with friends is a good medicine to deep contemplation.
I never really address my posts to HG, Or try to engage with him on the blog, as I know he has so many questions to answer for people already, and they are more important then my expressions.
But I meant everything I said in it ( when I’m in emotional mind my honesty is off the chart). I got all gushy again because in these moments of contemplation it hits me how much I have changed in the last year, and it hits me how the narcissists ever presence was all consuming, everyday. The fact that this is no longer the case is so overwhelmingly freeing, I feel like I have my own mind back. I know a huge part of the credit is for HG. I can remember that on one consultation something he said just turned a switch off. Quite literally the next day I noticed I had not thought of the narcissist for a few hours and I was like wow, I started to notice I was not thinking about him at all.
I have expressed my gratitude to HG so many times he is probably bored of it now.
Much of what you have said in this post resonated with me, thank you as always for sharing your story with me also. I have valued our conversations a great deal . Take care lovely SMH ..
Qx
I never tire of gratitude.
Thank you HG.. I will probably say it many more times. I have a feeling that I will never forget you, or what you have helped me to achieve.
That is what building my legacy is all about.
“There are three deaths.
The first is when the body ceases to function. The second is when the body is consigned to the grave. The third is that moment,
Sometime in the future when your name is spoken for the last time.” – David Eagleman
I know I am a nobody but I will always remember your name.
( if I develop dementia Im sure I will relive my 30’s and very much remember your name.. lol)!
Your legacy is secured, HG. You are not a man easily forgotten.
You are my mentor and friend across the pond.
Quasi, I feel like I finally have my own mind back too. I have HG to thank (HG – don’t get bored now) but also you, Super Xena, K, and a whole lot of others on here.
I had a good night last night too – came close to exposing narc in a chance encounter in a basement bar far from where we met!! I used his name as if we were old friends (‘oh do you know X’?). It did not trigger me in any way and I did not obsess.
Oh, I was also asked out on a date by someone who seems normal :-). x
You are welcome.
Excellent…. Here’s to good nights out and seemingly normal guys asking you out… as it should be. Im happy that you feel you are in that good place too, and I’m happy if I have helped in anyway. It’s been a pleasure to chat with you, and I feel that you have been integral in supporting me. Thank you SMH, I will keep a look out for your posts as they are always fab. X
Thanks, Quasi. I hope the same thing as always doesn’t happen. I go out on dates, the walls go up, and I go running back to narc. Luckily, he’s in a different country now so I can’t but I hope I don’t break NC when someone tries to get too close. That is my problem, not his, but I did use him as an excuse all the time. Or maybe I wasn’t ready to let go. Hope I am now…and of course I will also keep a look out for your posts if you are still hanging around here! 🙂 x
You are welcome, SMH, and I am keeping my fingers crossed; I hope he is normal!
Quasi
Thank you for opening up and telling the extended story. I am amazed because mine wanted me due to the fact that I was married, too…and he kissed me one night after dinner and I wanted that. I was easy prey. In hindsight I wish I had left it at that and gone no contact then. Instead, Mine has an NIPS. I left my husband and upset my entire family life only for him to triangulate me with other women and slowly take things away. Weekly phone calls, pet names, dinner invites. Now he no longer bothers to hide the creature at all. He believes he has me lock, stock, and barrel and that I will never leave and always remain a shelf IPSS. Thanks to this site and consultations with HG, I am getting stronger.
Prove him wrong… know your worth, believe in your strength and it will be so. You can and will be free. X
Geyserempath
Nice to see you commenting and hear that you are feeling stronger.
Thank you, Narcangel! That means a lot. xx
Hi geyserempath,
I do not remember writing this reply… lol
I must have responded in a stupor when home from a planned night out, out…
There is a distinction between going out, and going out out…
see link – If only for comic value.
https://youtu.be/0jP_brwVyvc
Ok so intoxicated me appears to be direct and succinct… I like her.. she writes in a few lines what normal me writes in a few paragraphs…
Although I don’t want to short change you …lol..
I wanted to say sorry if my reply was a bit full on… I do mean what I said though as I always have hope that anyone can transfer the strength that they use to endure abusive relationships, to strength in getting out of them.
I’m so pleased to hear that you are feeling stronger, you will know when the time is right for you and your resolve to put yourself first is set.
You are important and you have great value, sometimes it’s just hard to see this in ourselves, even when we can recognise the value we have in others.
Take care and I wish you well in your journey.
This is so timely .
Missing the golden period .Triggers on a particular day .
Feeling lonely , sad ,angry ,happy ,bored any strong emotion.
Important marks on the calendar , feeling forgotten ,you want to remind them you still exist.
Hi Kiki, I can relate to how you feel. But let’s think about this. If we need to remind someone we exist, it should be our cue we need to forget they exist. As HG wrote in his book “Exorcism,” when narcs “delete” us, we should focus on deleting them. You can do this!
Thank you insatiable learner I ,love your screen name . I just had a consult with HG ( hope its ok to say that HG Tudor) it has confirmed what I have been thinking for months I was mangled by a narc I wasn’t imagining it. That is why I came here .All the time I felt so weak and wondered how that man could hold me like that ,not getting over it ,my mind going in loops and circles.
Everybody gets a broken heart but I always sensed this was not normal grief ,I was stuck dreaming for the narc to come and turn back into the man I fell for .My self esteem was destroyed but slowly Im starting to notice other men again ,but taking tiny steps .My trust in men has been badly damaged.
He never existed part of me feels relief ,part of me wants to cry for the illusion but mostly I want to be free .
Oh dear Quasi!…you wrote:
“I wanted to say sorry if my reply was a bit full on… I do mean what I said though as I always have hope that anyone can transfer the strength that they use to endure abusive relationships, to strength in getting out of them.”
Never worry about being full on. I like that.
Excellent… full on it is … lol…
For myself it used to be that I wanted him to admit and accept what he had done to myself and my family. The fact that my children who loved him and trusted him and gave their hearts to him, only to be subgected to a very sick and twisted dynamic is what gets to me most. Also the reality is that I was the one who was left picking up the broken pieces and carrying the burden of the guilt of what they were subgected to. No they were never physically hurt nor was he outright cruel to them but they saw how their mom was treated. They saw their mom break down.they saw their once very strong confident mom turn into a complete anxiety ridden shadow of a person of whom she once was. Although I in no way shape or form blame him completely. It was my responsibility to protect their well being. I take full responsibility. But i am still consumed with that guilt , even though the wounds have been healed and my children have grown into fine and stable beings.But I know that they deserved better. In the And, once my eyes were opened to the reality I did do the right thing and put my children first, however,i am ashamed and horrified that it took me so long to see the truth of who he was and what he was doing. It’s something that I still struggle to understand how I just didnt see the truth for so long. How could I have not when it was so clear?How did I get so weak, so sick that somehow configured a different reality in my mind that didn’t exist? I no longer care about why he is how he is. Nor do i hope for his acknowledgment. It will never happen.I stay on here to try to understand why that dynamic happens in hopes to not only help have a better understanding of myself but perhaps maybe, possibly help others in a tiny way .Maybe others can prevent the same happening to themselves and their family, or at least have the necessary tools to get out and stay out of a toxic situation.Knowledge is power.
Star
Im sure your kids dont dwell on what happened, but more find relief that you did end it and that neither you or they have to deal with him any longer. They want to see you happy and living-not letting him take any more of your life in the form of guilt or shame. Honour them and yourself by living now-not in the past. I do understand however, your being here now to support others and we are all the better for it. Thank you.
Thank you Narc Angel.i don’t know if you realize how supportive your words are to people, nor how truthful.And yes you are right they don’t dwell the pain has long surpassed and they now view him with pity. Life has not been kind to the Lesser that he is and all has caught up to him. Whereas our life keeps getting better and better and our relationships stronger. In the end…we were the winners. Thank you so much for all you contribute here I hope you know how much it means to many of us
I could have written your post, almost word for word.
I struggled with this for a long time too Star. That I exposed my children to his ways and thus established a toxic pattern of relating to people. My children themselves have helped me let go of that guilt. They are kind,compassionate human beings yet strong and resolute when necessary, despite spending much time with him during formative years.They have learnt some harsh truths about humans early in life. I’ve come to realise, with their help (and others) that that’s a good thing for them. They’re pretty good narc detectors.
What NA writes below has been said to me almost word for word, by my children.
Tappi Tikarass
Thank you for that.:) As mother’s we love our children and when these beautiful beings first come into the world we want the best for them.We want to protect them.We love them fiercely. And you are right they are fierce Narc detectors!! Lol when I was dating others they could sniff them out a mile away! And when they met my recent fiance…they really put him through the gears and tested and dissected every word every action. When it became clear that he ” passed the test” and he was still around, they gave their approval. I’m hoping this means that when it comes to their own relationship choices, that they will be much more educated than I once was:)
I know that the urges to have my say and to get answers are futile. And I know that seeking revenge is pointless – but oh how sweet it would be! Too bad the whole thing is such a waste of time. The number one hardest thing for me (during the 48 days of drop dead silent no contact) has been controlling my thoughts and ruminating on “what it all meant”. Another HUGE waste of time – I’m gaining acceptance of the fact that there WILL BE NO CLOSURE, NOT NOW, NOT EVER, unless I give it TO MYSELF. On the path…
Trying to get closure from a narc is like trying to smell the number 9. Why give them yet more power over you and your future, or prevent you from moving on? Better you decide what closure you can effect for yourself and stick to it, as closure is an issue for the empath and not the narc. Their idea of closure in a relationship is not so appealing-it’s death.
Lol..trying to smell the number 9😁
The hardest part is just talking with him, he was my friend, as well. We could speak about different things because we were both international. We relate on a lot of levels because we had been there or were more worldly than the others. Mainly the friendship. Purging him from my mind 40% of the time the other 60% I keep myself busy and have new friends.
the 2nd hardest part was the split from the harem. They were fun. I do not miss them now, since I do not see them and I have new wonderful positive friends.
I voted for hangovers (money owed), thoughts flooding my mind and wanting physical intimacy. The last one has been my crutch lately. 😕
My former abuser has been out of my head and heart for some time. He has been on robust no contact for a decade. However, I was nearly ensnared by a mid range last fall and the seduction carried out over several months (I am a magnet super empath…we are difficult that way) I have blocked him on social media, deleted contact info and taken distance from him. I am fine and holding true to no contact however…it is about purging him from my mind. Our entanglement, although intermittent and lack lustre, for some reason has taken root on my brain and I cannot let it go. Most of what I am holding onto is what the heck he was thinking and why he carried on with me as he did. I just want to piece the puzzle together even though I know that if I did, it still wouldn’t make sense. I am the ultimate truth seeker!
5,4 and 1. In that order. It’s been 2 months and at this point I just want him out of my head!!!
The hardest part is reminding yourself, when they Hoover, that not only was the Golden Period not real, neither are the reminders of the Golden Period that they’re using to try and hook you back in. This is sometimes extremely hard to do because during the Golden Period the narc was getting something tangible from you he wanted:money, association, career help so it actually WAS real to a certain extent because he was genuine in his pursuit of what he wanted. Until, that is, he took all he wanted then disappeared Leaving you with only his innate terminal indifference. So, again, when the urge to grab for the golden shards surfaces,it’s crucial to keep reminding yourself this whole thing was a fake to get what he wanted.
Well put.
horseyak
I have now read your comment many times. I lately have been struggling with memories of the Golden Period. It was so intoxicating that it permeated my mind. I now see it in a different way. Although I already knew it was fake, I was still putting too much “romance” in my memories of it. Yes, it was intoxicating. Yes, it was the best time of my life. BUT it was FAKE and it was all for HIM. My emotions and eventual needs were not his concern. Thank you. You have no idea how much you helped me.
‘his innate terminal indifference’
Well said horseyak, that should be a medically recognised cause of disease as it makes empaths sick.
No wait, it IS a recognised cause of death: babies exposed to it ‘fail to thrive’ and die.
As do we.
Horseyak, I can’t ‘like’ your comment so I will write here that I appreciate it. I fell for career help hoovers post escape. They were coming one after the other and I was very supportive etc even though I had told him that I did not want to be in contact. I felt ‘needed’ and ‘wanted,’ if also somewhat irritated and confused (why was he turning to me for this help?). Suddenly one day I inadvertently wounded him and derailed everything. I got an ST and felt alternately guilty and angry – went supernova rather quickly because of the ST. Your comment makes me realize that while I thought giving ‘friendship’ a try might be worth it, he would have eventually disappeared when HE wanted to rather than when I wanted him to.
SMH,
You are welcome.
Sounds great that you finally feel you are getting your mind back.
“Oh, I was also asked out on a date by someone who seems normal “
That sounds even greater! Ready to cut the ribbon for reaching the goal to the other side?
And now that /if you feel ready to date again, perhaps it is worth to make a check up list for them to pass the test? I know you are alert now with plenty of knowledge but if you have not read the book Red Flag I strongly recommend it( good to have it as the Empath’s SOS toolkit!) I find it very useful.
Here are two useful links:
https://narcsite.com/2017/08/31/poll-which-red-flags-did-you-fail-to-heed/
Red Flag https://narcsite.com/2018/07/23/red-flag-15/#comments
Abrazos
Hola SuperXena! Are you also Horseyak? I’ve dated on and off since this all started but I stopped this year. My walls went up every single time and I’d go running back to narc because he felt safe (haha) and I didn’t want a full on relationship. I am just hoping I do not end up breaking NC because of that pattern. I will definitely look at those Red Flag articles and I really appreciate you reading and commenting. I hope all is well with you as I haven’t seen you here for awhile (a good thing!). Abrazos.
Hello SMH,
No I am not Horseyak. I have always and only been SuperXena here.
am not subscribed to some posts anymore so I do not get any e-mail notifications. I wanted to reply to you directly so the only way was finding one of your comments with the little arrow below “ reply”. So I did it.
I am perfectly fine SMH, thank you for asking. I hope you are fine as well.
I have not had the time to be more active here but I still read and follow as much as I can.
Those walls coming up I can relate to. They will fall whenever it is the time for it to happen ,when you are ready. It will come when you less expect it. As long as you do not run back to your ex because now you know what will happen: nothing good.
Remember:
“ Hay que darle tiempo al tiempo”.
You will find the book Red Flag VERY useful to avoid getting entangled with another narcissist something that seems to be more probable if you jump in right again into another relationship without being completely re established. The aftermath and the CPTSD symptoms make one more gullible, vulnerable ,impressionable and more prone to fall into getting infatuated and profess extreme exaggerated admiration to someone that usually is a narcissist because they can detect this vulnerability….miles away.
Be safe!
Abrazo
Mil gracias, SuperXena.
You are right again. I feel ready but taking it very slowly. Whatever is meant to be, will be. Of course now I have another married man after me and that is off my list (was when I met narc too, but he lied). Too bad because I like the guy but I think mm who don’t leave their relationships are cowards and afraid to be alone, never mind the cake eating. That is why I am not interested in IPSS role – not because I particularly care about the moral aspect of it – people have complicated situations – but because I don’t want to be with someone who is unhappy.
Glad you are fine! Abrazos!
You are welcome SMH.
“ think mm who don’t leave their relationships are cowards and afraid to be alone”…..”not because I particularly care about the moral aspect of it – people have complicated situations – but because I don’t want to be with someone who is unhappy.”
I personally do not believe that a “man” who does that is because he is unhappy( coward oh ! yes). Without attaching moral values to it I believe that a man( or woman) who does that rather speaks about a man with no integrity, no dignity, no self/esteem ,no self/respect.
If a man does not even have /show that “for himself”, he can’t possibly provide this to you or any other either. Do you want a man like that? You deserve better than that!
A huge red flag when what he says ( he will do) does not match with what he actually does. Actions speak louder than words.
Take care and hang in there!
Abrazos.
Yes, SuperXena, and if you agree to it, they project their lack of dignity, self-esteem and self-respect onto you. It was so satisfying to be able to tell MRN how unhappy he must be to do what he does. LOL. Even if he isn’t unhappy, he thinks that I think he is unhappy, and that is enough of a wound…x
SMH,
“they project their lack of dignity, self-esteem and self-respect onto you”
Exactly. I completely agree with you. To this add the feelings of shame this causes in them. They want to avoid experiencing these feelings and project them instead into you trying to make you feel them instead. Isn’t it what this is all about?
Ha,ha “ Even if he isn’t unhappy, he thinks that I think he is unhappy, and that is enough of a wound”.
You made me laugh with that one! Are you one step ahead now? Sounds good.
Take care.
I think I am one step ahead, SuperXena. I humiliated him over and over. Of course he ‘forgets’ because his narcissism won’t allow it, which is why he still hoovers. Or he wants revenge, which is what happened after I escaped and tried to be ‘friends.’ I’m not going to go so far as to say he couldn’t get me back, however, so it is helpful to keep coming here.
SMH,
It seems to me that you are on your way.
“ I’m not going to go so far as to say he couldn’t get me back, however,…”
What you wrote was a very honest and strong remark (accepting that is a process) and that mindset is exactly what is going to lead you to the point when you will say:
I DO NOT WANT him back ( instead of thinking that he may still get you back) regardless if he wants you back or not.
“…so it is helpful to keep coming here.”
Exactly, and when you reach that point, the site will still serve a (new) purpose for you, perhaps not with the same intensity and frequency as in the beginning but still may help you in your personal development, depending of course on how you decide it to be and the use you want to give it to.
Abrazos
Well, you are right again about my wording, SuperXena! But I think I am pretty free and clear now. It is not like last year at all, when six months NC were hell. This has been relatively easy compared to that! Of course he has not directly hoovered, but I doubt he will. It helps a lot that we are permanently in different countries.
This site has helped me a lot in my personal development. I just told a guy well, ‘you are not a player and you are not a narcissist, you are self-aware, so we shall see what unfolds.’ It would never even have occurred to me to think about narcissism before. I am much better at reading people. I wasn’t bad before but I have to laugh because gosh, did I have some learning to do. But it has also made me realize how lucky I have been.
xx
SMH,
I am glad that you feel you are getting the grip on your life back again.
Don’t let your guard down by protecting your personal boundaries.
Cuídate y abrazos.
Straight facts, Horseyak.
I needed to hear this. In other words; residual benefits.
I have remained no contact since April 2017. That was the last time I talked to him, and when I deleted the texting app and ghosted him. I have officially been no contact for the EXACT number of days as our entanglement. Why do I *still* thinking of him every damn day? I don’t pine for him or crave him anymore. I almost miss that feeling in a way because I felt so alive, but I don’t miss the illusion of what he was. I just find it hard to get him out of my head. And I know that’s what he wanted because he used to say he liked being in my head.
This comment terrifies me Mary, but I appreciate your honesty! Your narc was online only right? Imagine if he had been proximate to you….
Hi Supernova DE,
Just curious what part of the comment terrifies you? Yes, most of our relationship was online. However, we did meet in person one time, kissed and made out in his car. I have shared details of that meeting in other posts, so won’t go into them here, but for a long time I thought I’d never be able to shake the intensity of his kiss. After so much time passed, my mind recalls it being intense, but I have LOST being able to re-live it and how it all felt. That’s a good thing! I used to envy the women I imagined he went further with, to have had such intimacy with him, but now I am so thankful to not be one of them.
Mary
Hi Mary. The part that scares me is the length of time they can stay in your head!!! I do not feel mentally or emotionally prepared for the longevity. I was in it for three years and two months. I find it terrifying that it could take that long, or more, to purge him.
But – as you said I had the same experience with my narc awakening something sexual in me that I don’t regret. It has improved my marriage in some ways, and made me a more authentic version of myself. Some people might read that and think I’m a crazy adulterer, but it remains true.
I was also long distance so via text/phone. The few times I saw him were brief and I also had the backseat car experience haha. But unlike yours, mine did not thrill me, and to be frank I’d rather sext him than fuck him. It’s just the fantasy land we went to that I miss. Suppose I could get that from anyone, but it was narc that did it, and that is how he hooked me.
Supernova DE,
You do not sound like a crazy adulterer. You sound like your being real and honest with yourself.
You’re posts are the real.
Qx
Mary
Mine too! He told me several times how much he likes being in my head. And, now I can’t get him out of my head. Sigh……
BrokenRainbow,
It’s so eerie that anyone would say that! Who would say that to a person? It’s like they read from the same playbook on how to unsettle a person!
Mary
do you think they really know that they are in your head?
Mary,
I am pretty sure it is your emotional thinking that causes you to miss him. It is the illusion that we miss. The golden period is what caused the addiction to the illusion of what we thought the narcissist was, an illusion.
I’ve made it very difficult/impossible for him to contact me, and I don’t like or use social media, so that makes things a bit easier for me. But, he’s in my thoughts, and I don’t want him there. And yes, sometimes I start thinking about that facade, and then I feel like telling him what a fake, empty, cold liar he is. But I know now (thank you again, H.G.) that that is just fuel. He does not care at all. And it is frustrating, but also very clear. I will have to deal with the fact that there will be no satisfying closure. I can live with that. And what he does to others is not my business. They will eventually end up on this website, if they’re lucky.
If he ever manages to send me a message, email, smoke signal, pigeon post or message drone, I will not answer. Not a word.
I only voted for one: The fact that we co-parent and there has to be some form of contact.
I don’t really think about him that much anymore.
I only voted for that one too, K
Not too shabby then, merrymagenta! That means we are moving forward.
For me it has been not thinking about him excessively, not missing the rush of getting a text from him, not missing the way he made me feel so attractive and sexy in the beginning.
I’ve also had a hard time not wondering if he has found someone else to fill my shoes as IPSS. And wondering how many IPSS he has, does he see them in person or just online, etc.
I get emotionally attached to people and crave the contact with them, talking, holding them, intimacy (not necessarily sexual). Closeness.
I can only feel that way to one person at a time. It is infatuation. And it wears off. If it there is nothing left after the brain chemicals dissipate, the relationship ends. If love forms after the infatuation, it is stronger, deeper bond.
So I guess my crux to no contact is my emotional attachment.
I think infatuation can be prolonged with various manipulations, including the hot and cold behavior, but ultimately once the wool is pulled away from your eyes, the infatuation starts to recede. Thank you HG and everyone here as well for helping remove the wool.
I want to stop talking about him but even when I’m ignoring him on every front he forces the issue, by doing things that obligate me to talk about him to third parties. I can see the pattern now though…this type of conduct of his escalates at particular times. And I can see that he wants me to engage him directly but that won’t happen. People have commented: “You’re handling this well…” (Given his behaviour.) It’s because it has become to bloody predictable that I’m under-reacting now…except to document everything.
Well I couldn’t vote on this one. None of those applied to me. I was basing it on my Moron in Munich, since he’s my most recent narc problem. I still can’t keep thoughts of him from popping in my head, but definitely not “flooding with thoughts and memories.” More like one every couple or three days.
It was bothering me just this morning that I am still so embarrassed from falling for his lies, when I could tell from the first few days that something was “off” and very wrong with him. Maybe this poll should make me feel good that I’ve recovered to the point that none of these apply – and grateful that he’s on another continent.
I recognize your embarrassment. I also can’t believe I fell for the lies, even though I saw red flags from the start.
And I’m happy for you that he’s far, far away.
Thanks! I realize how lucky I am not to ever have to worry about seeing him or having to interact with him.
Windstorm
The fact that MinM was attracted to you shows he has intelligence and good taste.
The fact that you were attracted to him shows you are attracted to men with intelligence and good taste.
I see no reason for embarrassment.
I see an opportunity to celebrate ( with cake ) the fact that you removed your precious person from his unworthy clutches.
This underscores the fact that you are the intelligent woman we all appreciate.
Thanks Caroline. That made me laugh!
You’re welcome WS, it’s all true. Can’t help thinking your grandchildren are so lucky to have you for their grandma.
Yep, they won the grandma lottery!
MB
😊❤️
Caroline
😊❤️
You forgot one…The fact that some of your type are quite villainous and do not understand the meaning of a No Contact Order.