No Good Advice
Relationship advice. The internet is awash with it. Sites, blogs, question and answer sessions, videos on YouTube there is a plethora of advice about how to deal with the problems which arise in intimate relationships.
I decided recently to have a good look through many of these sites and gather together the common complaints which people raise when they submit their issues. There are plenty of submissions, thousands upon thousands of people complaining about the issues in their relationships. Oddly enough, I noticed a common thread with many of these complaints where people had written in to seek advice or explained their circumstances. Time and time again I the following:-
“Everything was wonderful to begin with, he swept me off my feet.”
“She made me feel like a king and it was just what I needed after how horrible my marriage had been.”
“I was taken aback by how loving he was, but it felt so good to be treated that way after everything that I had been through.”
“He told me how he had been hurt before and didn’t want to go through that again.”
“His ex-wife was horrible to him and he had been hurt but wanted to ensure everything was right between us.”
“Everything was marvellous for a few months and then he changed.”
“I didn’t know him anymore.”
“He started controlling me.”
“She told me who I could see.”
“He started to isolate me from family and friends.”
“He would flirt with other women.”
“She spent all of her time on the internet doing Lord knows what.”
“He never listens to me.”
“He became abusive.”
“The sex was amazing at first but then it just stopped.”
“He was so loving and attentive in bed but then he started suggesting threesomes and kinky stuff which I didn’t like.”
“He started to make decisions for me.”
“She would lose her temper over the smallest thing.”
“He would disappear for days on end and I was sick with worry.”
“He would not speak to me for several days even though I had done nothing wrong.”
“He started hitting me. He said sorry afterwards and seemed remorseful for what he had done, blaming it on seeing his dad beat him mum when he was young.”
“He doesn’t like anything I do any more, he puts me down.”
“Its like living with Jekyll and Hyde.”
“He just never contacted me again. I still don’t know what has happened.”
“He told me he couldn’t be with me anymore as he needed time to himself and then two days later I see him post about a new girlfriend on social media.”
“He was unfaithful to me repeatedly.”
“I still miss her after everything she has done.”
“I am financially ruined, stressed but I still love him.”
“Why can’t it be like it was in the beginning?”
“I want him back.”
I should imagine that all of you will be nodding at these comments for two reasons. First of all, you remember saying them yourself or something similar. Secondly, you now realise what was actually behind these behaviours. People like me.
Over and over again I saw questions and tales which all had the common theme of ‘Brilliant start, he became someone else, dumped me, I was heartbroken.’ Hundreds upon hundreds of these stories, these tales of misery and woe. A litany of despondency and confusion that has been piled up in the inboxes of the relationship advisors and gurus. I scrolled through them all, reading the replies, the advice and the suggestions. I read the analysis, I digested the observations and spent some considerable time doing so. What did I see?
Not one person raised the possibility that the person seeking advice had become involved with a narcissist. Not one.
Many of these blogs and relationship advice sites were clearly popular. Some were established names, linked to lifestyle magazines and newspapers. Many directed you to their services for counselling and relationship tool kits. Many of them trotted out similar comments and platitudes. Too often they read like the first world tribulations of a scene from Sex and the City rather than the abusive, destructive and harmful actions of dangerous narcissists.
Yet not one of them raised the suggestion that a narcissist was involved.
Now, naturally it is not the case that behind every relationship woe there is a narcissist but I know that those of you reading this, with the benefit of the enlightenment you have achieved knows that there is a good chance that problems of this nature as described repeatedly in the problems pages of these sites are something to do with people like my kind. Yet nobody was offering this as a possibility. That shows the scale of how easy it is for us to do what we do and pass undetected. It shows the staggering lack of knowledge about what we do say, think and do and the naivety of so many people, including those who apparently understand relationship dynamics.
Instead, I saw standard and repeated responses such as:-
“He is clearly a commitment phobe.”
No, he doesn’t want to spend time with you because he is devaluing you and is actually seducing someone else at the current time.
“You have outgrown each other.”
No, you never grew together to begin with because it was all predicated on an illusion and his lack of interest now is symptomatic of his interest being elsewhere.
“He may just be tired or stressed from working hard to support you and your children.”
Yes or he might be a narcissist who uses his rage to intimidate and control you.
“You may have unrealistic expectations about the relationship.”
Damn right you do and we all know why that has happened don’t we?
“You need him to take responsibility for his actions. He cannot keep blaming you for everything.”
Good luck with that one.
“He just might not be into you.”
Half-right I suppose, he just isn’t in to you fuel anymore, he is in to somebody else’s.
“He might be bored with life and not you. Try harder to interest him.”
Again, good luck with that one.
“Relationships require hard work. Don’t give up. Keep working at it and you can overcome the problems together.”
You have just been told to sign your own death warrant there.
“Some people have anger issues but that can managed with understanding and therapy.”
Or they have fury which ignites at the slightest provocation and always will.
“Being hurt is an inevitable part of a relationship.”
It is if you get ensnared by my kind.
I am not suggesting that every problem in a relationship is as a consequence of the other party being a narcissist, that is unrealistic. However, the number of times I read about what was clearly the narcissistic dynamic of seduction, devaluation and discard was significant. The monumental amount of times that I recognised narcissistic manipulations – rage attacks, silent treatments, triangulation, intimidation, bullying, gas lighting and so forth – in so many posts did not surprised me but they were not picked up on. Many times these manipulations were not isolated events. There were repeated occasions and also differing types of the manipulations which when combined and repeated point in one direction.
The advice and platitudes that were provided to people who were clearly, not just possibly, but clearly entangled with a narcissist, were way off the mark. The descriptions and answers I have listed above were the ones which were provided to people and at best this would mean the person would remain clueless and stuck with no appropriate solution and at worst they were providing advice which would harm the individual who had sought the advice.
I was not surprised by this erroneous advice. I was not amazed by this omission of our kind from the explanations. I was not taken aback by the scale of people complaining about what was clearly narcissistic abuse but not being told as such.
This is why we are able to do what we do.
This is why we are able to move amongst people, ensnare fresh victims and maintain our veneer of respectability.
This is why what we do is passed off as something else. Euphemised, diluted, lessened and made to seem like a standard relationship hiccup.
This is why ignorance is so harmful.
This is why we remain so effective.
This is why we remain so dangerous.
100 thoughts on “No Good Advice”
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Oh…that’s the first time I had read something so clear. I sensed the acting of the midrange n.. Common friends told me that I was to sensitive and hurt by previous relations. That he is such a good boy, a bit crazy and lunatic but good. Nevermind if he depicted his ex as too jealous. She was the crazy. Yet, I was depicted as the previous one in the first devaluation. Why people don’t see similarities? Why is so easy to blame the new partner, without seeing that the good guy is describing his partners in the same way, when they -me in the crowd- do not behave as expected..by him? Also… a friend also told me that according to Buddhism we create our own reality and situations according to our emotions and perception of the reality. Best bullshit to tell to somebody engaging with a liar. This is really a dangerous advice as it just increase the chaos in our -not n.- mind. It is really to easy from outside to give advice, to ‘help’. And it happened also with parents of the midrange n.. It happens because he started a therapy…which actually had given him several tools against me. If it is complex to deal with a n. it is even more exhausting to deal with people around justifying, giving ‘good advices’, telling you how to behave. A question to HG Tudor..should we became as cold as ‘people of your kind’ to address all this? should we just use logic?. When I saw people giving all these good advices, from Buddhist perspectives and so..I truly feel that I had lost this innocence. They try to normalize, saying something that could be applied to a common situation. While dealing with n. their advices are just a gate to re-enter or open another door of this hell.
Super X I agree with you 100%. Never have I seen such a break down of this dynamic before. There is a disconnect between the word Narcissist and the actions used by them. Significant others are the ones referenced in a majority of the articles which makes it nearly impossible to figure out what kind of ticking time bomb we are involved in. My therapist was under the impression this was just a run of the mill affair, although he referenced “along came a spider” and recognized the manipulations if I had mentioned narcissism he might have used any number of lines from the above article.
Hello wounded,
Thank you for your feedback. You raise very good points here:
“Never have I seen such a break down of this dynamic before. There is a disconnect between the word Narcissist and the actions used by them”.
“…he might have used any number of lines from the above article.”
Yes, many terms and concepts regarding NPD have been used before by many but as you also pointed out , the break down of the dynamics is unique.
The detailed description made of very specific behaviours ( which we recognise- both from the narcissist we entangled with and from us empaths) and the interconnection with the concepts is unique. All is explained by the new concept and dynamics of the Fuel Matrix and the concept of Fuel.
These concepts for me are not isolated and static any more ( as they were by reading many other sources) but fluid and interconnected: all the pieces fall into place finally solving the puzzle.
Many other new categorisations are presented as well such as :the different Schools/Cadres of narcissists and empaths( I have not seen that somewhere else before either). Mostly , the terms covert and overt narcissist and co-dependants are used but that did not give me the specific answers I needed to the questions of my own specific relationship with my exnarc.
All this gives a new clarity that has no comparison with any other process presented before.
Not to mention that all this comes from the perpetuator himself.
Kiki no one is perfect. Marriage is HARD work. I’ve been married 10 years and gone through all shades of hell because that’s life with kids, work, baggage, etc. That being said the man I married loves me completely and totally.
You don’t need to be in a relationship to be happy. First, love yourself. Focus on having good friendships. Down the road, who knows? But right now I would not worry about it. Abuse takes awhile to heal from.
Just some observations in regard the above mentioned writer.
I must say that I have read a lot of information circulating on many different platforms given by many so called experts of NPD and the number is growing exponentially.
However, I have not heard about de Canonville
before . The comment posted here concerning her awakened my curiosity so I read her post. After reading it , it is very clear to me that:
1. Although the terms “primary” and secondary sources of narcissistic supply have been used by many before , the concept per se and the description of the dynamics she presents is unique and belongs to you.
2.The description given by the above named blogger uses many ( if not all) of your concepts without giving you the credit as the source of information.
Just to mention some of the concepts she uses that originally belong to you:
( through paragraphs 3,4,5,6)
-potency of narcissistic supply
-negative vs positive supply ( charge ) as emotional responses
-the role of the primary source as intimate partner
-the dynamics of investment and infatuation with the primary source
-the devastating devaluation ,disengagement ,
-the concept of hoovering , the reason of hoovering
(paragraphs 7,8,9)
-the risk of hoovers even after long time after
– the hoovers by proxy
-the traits of the Empath that attract the Narcissist
(paragraphs 12-….)
– the role of the secondary source and the reasons of the prolonged golden period
And the list goes long…
3.In regard to the concept of tertiary sources, although the author gives the credits to you of this concept , the reference of the source (you) is invalid because your named was incorrect.
It is very unethical , unprofessional and extremely irritating to see the use of your concepts by someone else without giving your name as the source ( link to your site, the title of the book (s) ).
The right thing to do would be for her to rewrite the article giving you credit for all the information she uses making reference to your (correct) name.
Makes me wonder if they really believe that this would be unnoticed?
Spreading the knowledge is positive but please give credit where credit is due!!!
Thank you SX, an excellent analysis, I may well utilise it for the purposes of my correspondence.
Your welcome HG and thank you.
I am happy that you find it valuable.
By all means, please do it if you find it useful.
It would be my pleasure to be able to assist you.
Superxena
Impressive and I have yet to read the article.
Your response to these thou have always impressed me.
Thank you Twilight . I really appreciate your kind words.
Hi Superxena!
That assessment would be fair if this was the only article Christine Louis De Canonville wrote. Did you read any of her books, her other articles, research her history for proper data? Her work extends for 40 years and she has spent 25 years as a psychotherapist. HG knows I adore his work but I also highly respect this other individual and have read a lot of her material over the last three years as well.
It’s just a matter of perspective. I’m fine with being the minority that didn’t think she was stealing any ideas from HG that she has certainly already explored in her own words in her other works. She did reference him and Sam Vaknin.
Hello Clarece,
Thank you for your comment. I believe what you are saying about
de Canonville’s credentials and experience. As I stated on my comment , I am not acquainted with her work as thoroughly as you are.
I am very aware that some similar concepts have been presented by many others . I have read, researched and analysed as well about this topic for a long time( 5 years to be exact). Not just one source but many ,many others.
That is to say : my arguments are consequently supported by comparative analysis of many years of reading ,researching , learning ,analysing and comparing.
The conclusion I arrived to is that the concept of fuel and the explanation of the dynamics of the fuel matrix is still a unique concept presented by HG.
Where many new concepts are presented as well as some concepts that have been ambiguous and presented isolated by others before , merge into one and central concept with a completely new dimension:the Fuel Matrix .
What characterises this new unique concept is the clear explanation of the concept of fuel and the INTERACTION and INTERCONNECTION of ALL the elements and sources of supply in the Fuel Matrix: the hierarchy of the sources, the shelving, the different types of hoovering, the potency of the fuel( determined by proximity and quality, the form of delivery…),the golden period, the devaluation, the disengagement…
To be honest, I have not found this interconnected analysis and the concept of fuel ( specifically what determines its potency) anywhere else.
Of what I read, what de Canonville is describing is just exactly that.
Hi
Yes HG s site is amazing , I am learning so much and HG can pinpoint his behaviour so I am prepared for it.
However may I ask you ladies have any of you completely lost ALL trust in a sexual relationshipafter being with a narc.
I was never a giddy romantic but I do feel part of my has died inside.
This may be a bit too much info but I notice my sex drive has come to a screeching halt , I shudder when a man looks at me that way.
I feel I will NEVER open my heart and soul to another man again.
I will never let a man get close to me emotionally or mentally in any way.
It’s really like the narc killed something in me , I always tried to please men maybe that was part of my problem .
I know associate sex ,love ,romance with pain ,deep heart wrenching pain and humiliation I never want to expose myself to this again.I have built huge walls around myself and I keep people out.
I know I will never trust again .
Kiki, because I’m long winded, I’ll give you shortest answer possible. Yes, I’ve felt all of those things. However when you find a man you can really communicate with and trust, it seems to come back, slowly. It isn’t the same though, but in a good way. There isnt the panicked need to please to keep from being punished, humiliated, or abandoned. It’s scary and new, but also exciting.
Thank you , but I doubt I will ever open up again.
I just feel dead inside .I no longer cry , or even feel , I am numb but know I will never get the butterflies again ,never allow a man to use me again.
I have no interest in sex and have thrown myself into my career .
Sometimes I feel a deep loneliness , and question myself ,what is wrong with me ,why can’t I have a happy relationship .Im bright ,attractive and had a sexy streak.That has died , it just has ,it saddens me but also protects me.
Physically I become repulsed by a mans attention ( No I am not lesbian) , I just see someone looking for a bit of pussy and look past all the niceties.I’m seeing men as scheming leering users , who only care for themselves and their you know what .Its not right I know but this is what I have become , petrified to let anyone get past simple shallow conversation.
I was discarded badly and this is the result.
Kiki
Feelings change. It may take awhile for love but there will be sex. The kitty will demand to be fed lol.
Kiki, my hope for you and everyone else here( including myself) is that one day we can look in the mirror and say to ourselves, Enough. Enough being afraid, enough giving up ourselves, enough giving up our dreams, enough dimming our light for narcissists. Then trust what we have learned, our hearts and our instincts and go fearlessly into the world, confident of our ability to discern people’s intentions and protect ourselves.
This is why I have never received therapy for Narcissistic Abuse. None of them understand it. I have very good insurance, thanks to The Lord, but I cannot find a therapist who “gets it”. I wish you accepted Insurance, Mr. Tudor. I really do.
HG Sir, because of Kathy Mor and the problem with her son, I have an idea. A children’s book. I’m serious. A book for children explaining narcissism. You’re awesome, you could do it! 😊
That is the best idea I’ve heard in a long time, Idanoe! I don’t know if HG would be able to relate to the youngest of readers, though. His vocabulary is quite advanced and if they don’t know what the words mean, the valuable content might be missed. I think the information he provides is a must for teens, early in their dating endeavors. Red flag will be required reading for my teenage son.
MB, HG is the king of narcissists and completely brilliant. He could figure it out. Kids should be easy after dissecting his own kind. I have faith. Damn, I never thought I’d say that about a narcissist!, 😳
I was the “love will cure all romantic empath” and read all the above shite and more Men are from Mars, pull away, snap back… What a load of bollocks!!!
An article in the Daily Mail about Narcissism (I had never heard of it, still struggle to spell it!) and a comment from a reader directing to Narcsite.
The fortunate / unfortunate power and truth of HG’s writing is horrendously brilliant.
I have had hundreds of light bulbs moments.
My fucked up relationship was complicated by the empathy I had for him as he had Cancer during our 5 year entanglement. (We were teenage lovers, so history also)
He is now with somebody else, text book as well.
I am depressed, hate that I am. My depression is partly empathy based how can a human being so that to another, saddens me the state of the World. The News is just horrendous these World leaders all Narcissists.
I also have a bit of a pity party going on, I was kind, loving and decent and he walked all over me a 100 times and it was all a big lie.
I want the old me back and to be happy.
Thank you for honest writing and advice 3 consults over 18 months. They were invaluable and would recommend over any counselling / therapy.
Just wish you could do the magic panacea of happiness, confidence and self esteem was completely eroded by that Twatism of Narcissism.
A/x
Thank you and I am always pleased to see my work being broadcast through other outlets and for it to allow people to achieve awareness, understanding and freedom.
Hi HG! I was excited to see you referenced and quoted on your definition of tertiary sources of supply by Christine Louis De Canonville in her latest email article. I have followed her work almost as long as yours and she is a heavy weight in narcissistic abuse awareness and treatment. Nicely done getting on her radar!
I’ve seen the article, another reader brought it to my attention. She will be getting a firm e-mail from me. She only referenced me with regard to tertiary sources (and then gets my name wrong) when in actual fact the whole article plagiarises my concept of fuel and the relevant hierarchy of appliances. Heavyweight in copying without proper permission or credit.
Ouch! I would not want to be on the receiving end of that electronic communication. I’m literally feeling nervous for the woman.
Oh no, someone is going to get a well deserved reprimand MB, and she couldn’t even get his name right, double trouble.
K, I’m not saying she doesn’t need to be sorted and set straight. It just makes my insides flipitty flop for her. When I read his words “firm email”. I felt the blood rush to my cheeks.
MB
So does Hush and Spanking lol.
Ha ha NA. They do! And so do some of Renard’s posts. Yikes!
MB
Ha ha ha…I wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of a firmly written e-mail from HG either. I would rather get the naughty step.
HG is a charmer and knows it’s better to open dialogue with sugar rather than vinegar. This isn’t some hack who’s really a Narcissist running some online forum or YouTube channel and controlling viewers. She’s a legitimate doctor in the field that HG eventually wants his legacy to leave a mark in.
Oooo-Kaaaay, HG. You do realize my mentioning this was meant in a positive light right?
She also does reference Sam Vaknin, who also has tiers for narcissistic supply. What you refer to as tertiary, when you read his material, he describes it as Low-Grade or Negative but it also seems to come from the same line of sources having very limited interactions with the Narc or a one and done scenario.
Personally, I did not take away from her article that she was plagiarising but rather it was refreshing to see you referenced (albeit the article should be released again with the spelling name correction which was probably a typo, unfortunately) and getting recognition exactly for some of your terminology that does make trying to learn narcissism more relatable and easier to understand rather than it sometimes being too clinical.
Meant to be encouraging and certainly not disarming from me.
Indeed I did Clarece, I recognised you raised it in a positive manner.
Glad that’s cleared up! Lol
HG I am eternally grateful for your writing. When I first broached the concept of narcissism every article focused on the significant other being abused. They would talk about the narc having a multitude of affairs but made no attempt to delve into that victim pool.
I looked up narcissistic bosses but those articles portrayed hell bosses NO ONE wants to be around.
There is a HUGE disconnect about narcissism on these other levels. If a narc gets by on charm and illusion I would not envision a raging boss that people avoid like the plague.
It wasn’t until here that everything fell into place. Thank you for giving me back my sanity.
You are most welcome.
Thank you HG. You have saved my sanity and probably my life.
You are welcome. I am told similar on a daily basis by grateful readers.
I am very grateful HG ..without your writing I would be so lost and think it was just me these things happened too ..you spell it all out so we can understand and become stronger and personally because of you I can cope now and not have the gut wrenching despair i once felt ..I have tried to end the relationship twice in the past weeks but been hoovered back ..I just need to be stronger to go no contact ..it seems weak but im afraid of him smearing me ! as we have so many mutual friends I would have to unfriend so many on social media ..it seems unfair ! but I also know I have in one sense brought this on myself by continuing the relationship when I should have seen those first red flags… I will get there tho …I know I will ..Thankyou for being here …
You are welcome.
I feel genuinely scared for the people who haven’t discovered HG and his work yet. If they’re relying on magazine articles and so called health professionals who don’t even know what a narcissist is, they’re fucked!
I’ve directed many people to narcsite, including my daughter and her friends. They’re at university and are coming into contact with an alarming amount of narcissists. One Greater Elite (in training) in particular who has already left a trail of devastation and despair in his wake and he’s only just starting his 2nd year!
Thank you for spreading the word of my work.
I was a Dirty Empath who suspected I was involved with a narcissist. While I initially found some answers elsewhere, it wasn’t until I found this site that I truly understood his motivations, the patterns, why he did what he did and my role in our affair. I tried to GOSO more times than I can count, after discovering infidelities on top of infidelities and gaslighting that caused me to feel crazy and sink into deep depression on more than one occasion. I have already recommended HG’s books and this site to the *other other woman who was ensnared by the narc ex, along with my therapist. You know what a valuable service you’re doing, HG and though I’m still struggling, I am ever grateful for your no nonsense approach. I don’t want sugarcoating. All I ever wanted was the truth, as harsh as it is, from my narc. And who knew I’d be getting it from another narc. Faithfully pursuing the policy of truth…
Thank you HG.
You are welcome and thank you for recommending my work to others.
I believe that a big part of the issue is lack of understanding of what a narcissist truly is. Psychologists and therapists usually go by the DSM-5, which is not inclusive. They also expect the narcissist to be open and obvious about the grandeur and other stereotypes so when someone differs, the person is discarded and called selfish or a “loner”.
Also, as you already mentioned before HG, there is misunderstanding regarding the term narcissism and the disorder itself. Having traits and being selfish does not make you a narcissist.
Take me as an example. I spent 06 years with this guy. Do you guys have any idea how many times I went through the same vicious cycle of being love-bombed, devalued, and disengaged?
Thousands of times. It became “normal” in the relationship to the point that if he was not pulling away from me to disengage , I would get worried that something was happening. Why is he still hugging me? Why is he still texting me? Something is wrong. We are “together” for two months and he’s still around me??? Hmmmmm….
And it was always that bullshit explanation completely idiotic coming from counselors and therapists: “Oh, he needs space. Oh, he is stressed out with his job. Oh, it is his daughters. Give him time, he needs space, don’t be clingy.”
Clingy? I haven’t seen him in two months and you stupid ass therapist are calling me “clingy”?
Popular psychology SUCKS. After I met HG and his writings, I am like… I don’t hear shit about this from anyone else.
because they have NO clue what they are talking about. They are normal people trying to understand a narcissist’s mind by assumption.
It only sinks when you hear from a real one and that is HG. Because once you read or hear those words, they tell your story.
After I started reading your articles, HG, I don’t even have time to think about my narcissist, much less care about what he’s up to. I am focused on your writing, your voice on YouTube and the more I read, the stronger I feel. You better believe I will share your blog, web site with everyone I know (but my narcissist), for obvious reasons. 🙂
Bravo, excellent points.
Most self-help/relationship materials often lead to more and more questions. With HG, you get the answers and have very few remaining questions and the ones that remain are generally related to residual matters (although this is not the case for everyone). It is kind of surreal to know exactly why something happened and still feel emotionally fucked by it. The healing is quicker though.
HG, I have to sincerely thank you for being you. I do not know what my fate would have been if I had not come across your site.
You are most welcome PH, you always listen carefully when we consult and I know you take it on board and apply it. Seize the power my friend!
I second that because this time things were turning to the very dark side in my relationship. It was HG who kept my head above the water when I was sinking deeper into the quick sand… 😰
And I thought I was paranoid for seeing a narc behind every bush.
Omg! This is me in a nutshell!!!! Any guy that approaches me with that stupid smile, I give the evil eye! 🤣
And obviously before I even consider dating the creature, he is going to be excrutinized, analyzed, dissected by HG!
Oh no! You’re exactly right. They’re everywhere. I have a service business and know others in service businesses that I’ve shared HG with. I see them, deal with them all the time. The others I know are starting to be able to recognize their narc clients too. We are amazed at how often they turn up, and the same bullshit they pull. My motto: Narc until proven otherwise. Dont be rude, just distant.
there are more psychologists claiming to specialize in narcissism …..most probably just want to get that client money.
There should be more in psychology books about narcissm …I hope you have your books in college courses or you have a class with your approved reading list taught at junior college or high school level ??
It will only be a matter of time and with you good readers pushing the agenda, it will happen.
I know patience is a virtue, but the sooner the better!
It’s not only untrained advice that’s off. Most professional therapists have no idea what they’re doing when it comes to narcissists. Or when it comes to any emotional abusers. Couples therapy just teaches the abuser how to abuse better, and therapists’ Polyannaish “anyone can change” attitude ties victims to their abusers more tightly.
Absolutely right. I have heard some major horror stories with regard to couples therapy – a completely pointless exercise.
It is my opinion that people go to couples therapy to learn how to divorce amicably
And often they do not even achieve that.
Christine, you’re so right in this. I happened to escape this (further) trap by the fact that my ex refused to take counseling with me (or by himself, for that matter) – if he had come along, he would have known all the tricks in the book on how to appear the one who has done everything in his power to make things ‘work’. But now I’m aware of why he always has so vehemently rejected even the idea of single therapy for himself (other people are a different case); he hates being scrutinized, he doesn’t want a truthful mirror to look in, there is never anything wrong with him. Being intellectual enough he knows, however, that he cannot present himself *totally* flawless if asked, so he has handcrafted this idea that he has a ‘Greek temperament’ which can sometimes manifest itself as explosive but harmless. Which is bullshit, because a) he is a bleak Nordic guy who is most of the time slightly but evenly pissed off with everything, and b) his ‘Greek’ temperament never manifests in bursts of joy, happiness and love for life and mankind. So I see no Zorba in him, sorry. Just the Midranger that I now know he is.
Excellent point! I should have made myself more clear, I don’t believe that having a license definitely entails a worthwhile therapist/psychiatrist/social worker/et cetera Having bounced around at least a dozen of each myself in the last two decades, I’m no stranger to sub-par mental health “care.” A worthwhile professional is hard to come by, especially with narcissistic relationships.
Hah, good luck indeed. Even when the other person isn’t a narcissist, say they’ve got BPD to keep this all in the cluster B realm or even if you extend this further into mood disorder territory, love will not find a way to “fix” a fundamental difference in how the individual perceives the world. That’s some Disney shit, no more reality than a golden period. It is a pretty illusion, though. A nice albeit unattainable pipe dream.
Ermagherd, it’s like humans are complex little creatures and one size will not fit all. Seeking advice from an uninformed source is counter productive, if not harmful. Critical thinking can seem like a superpower when it genuinely isn’t. Perhaos not the easiest course of action to take, especially when you’re learning to utilize critical thought patterns, but far from impossible.
Just last week, I watched a long interview with Esther Perel. She picked some fragments of movies, and commented on them, from her perspective as a therapist. One of those was a scene from the movie “I, Tonya”. In this scene, you see the young Tonya Harding, and her abusive mother. It’s awful, really hard for me to watch.
https://youtu.be/GQVJBu3NEi0
After that she showed a scene in which Tonya, now an adult, went back to her mother for answers.
https://youtu.be/4mYB2g8TRcY
I was surprised when Esther Perel, who apparently is a famous therapist, said that this was a mother that didn’t realise she did something wrong, that she genuinely thought she did the best for her child. So the problem here was, that they had completely different ideas about what happened in the past. Seriously? I see a Matrinarc.
I think there’s very little knowledge out there. Even amongst professionals.
And yes, usually you read about the dynamic between a person with fear of commitment and fear of abandonment. I really had to do my own research. And ended up here. There are no good books about the subject in my language. None. I know there are some other books in English, written by victims, but I get irritated when I read things like: take good care of yourself, be kind to yourself, treat yourself like you would treat a little bird. No. Just give me the information I need to identify a narcissist.
You definitely found a gap in the market.
Indeed, the fluffy stuff is useless when it really matters, that comes down the line (if at all). You need to know what you are dealing with, you need to get out and stay out and you need to the point, accurate and brutal honesty. It’s all in spades in my work.
Having it here in spades.
Fucking A!
Your honesty is brutal, and your books are not pink or fluffy. No unicorns and rainbows there. No happy ever after. No chance that it will ever work, no chance he or she will change. And no, that special, spiritual connection wasn’t there. Nor was the super sexual connection.
I like to know that stuff. It really helps me. There’s no growth in the comfort zone. In a twisted way I like how uncomfortable this place is.
Good for you Rachel.
Youre my kinda people Rachel. K calls it giving it to her rocks on rocks in a dirty glass.
Thank you NA, that’s nice to hear. (I feel an instant spiritual connection! 🧘🏼♀️)
Tchin tchin. (With a very dirty glass)
I do agree with Esther’s comments. It’s takes a lot to understand why the mother behaved in this manner. My current partner has similar issues and later in his adult life was thankful for this experience for him to become the the person he is – he had to go through some element of therapy to understand his parents actions but came out with the pros and cons of it all. He concluded that his parents actions were not abusive.
I’m not thankful for my father beating up me, my mother and my brothers, and ruining each and every special day. I am who I am today, and that’s the way it is, but I really can’t say that I’m thankful for all the shit I had to go through. I’d say that I’m ok today, despite of what happened. Not because of what happened.
Damn straight NA!
Even if we are knowledgeable, what difference does it make? A narc is a narc…!
Radhika Ravi
Im not sure I understand your question. The more knowledgable you are about it, the more you understand what your options are in dealing with your situation. The more knowledge you have on any subject gives you an advantage. Thats the difference.
Rahhika, I think I might be able see where you’re coming from. Please let me know if I’m off-base.
Health is measured on an entirely different barometer for a narcissist, if I’m understanding their function right. Correct me if I’m wrong, anyone. Fueled vs. low supply essentially seems to be their version of health vs. sickness. Minus the occasional boo-boo’d eyelash and obviously lethal cold, of course. Plenty of illnesses are incurable and root themselves in an individual’s identity before they’ve even learnt to speak in sentences, let alone have any vague capacity for self-reflection. Short of a lobotomy or other instance of damage to the physical structure of the brain, you’re probably* not going to see a genuine 180 degree change in behavior, although both are so far removed from an ethical, humane option I’d hope neither would be utilized.
(* I say probably because I’ve been researching Trans-Cranial Magnetic Stimulation, DMT, ketamine therapy and a handful of other prospective treatment methods for a range of neurochemical fuckery, NPD included. Keep in mind none of these are necessarily likely to cure the incurable, rather to tone down the most bothersome aspects. Which probably means NPD will be one of the last to be tested, with how difficult/impossible it is to hook a narcissist into treatment and all. Why bother bothering when you’re the apex of perfection?)
There’s no changing the narcissist, that’s abundantly clear, so can this information be applied constructively and these behavioral patterns changed? You can’t “fix” them, so what’s the use of knowing?
If you’re not willing/ready to do the self-reflective work and temper your responses accordingly, nothing will change. Point blank. At least not for the better, things can always get worse. Yes, these people disregard morality, not to mention reality as “normal” folks perceive it. This is fixed, it won’t change. The expectation of changed behavior on their part is pointless. Placing blame is easy, easiest when you’ve been hurt. Figuring out precisely where you’ve fucked up is integral to not repeating the same destructive patterns, with the narcissist whose driven you here or whoever may come along in the future. Of course it’s viscerally uncomfortable and often painful, but this is an excuse and not a reason.
My apologies if I’m misunderstanding what you’ve said as it was intended. (And/or if I seem harsher than intended, I mean no harm.)
Your article was insightful and direct. Excellent job! I am wondering if you commented on any of the relationship blogs-thereby enlightening their readers. Did you?
I have not had opportunity to do so but I would relish doing so to deliver what is really happening to people, albeit I know I will put many noses out of joint and no doubt have my comments removed by the hosts of the relevant sites as their shortcomings are exposed.
HG trolling, interesting concept. Just pop in and post a link to your site so no noses get disjointed!
Not trolling, I am delivering the truth. It actually works better if my readers post the links, rather than me.
I would be happy to post links, but I don’t visit any other sites. Yours is the only one for me.
Count on me!
I am obliged.
HG, “no doubt have my comments removed by the hosts of the relevant sites”
This made me wonder if you have hosts of other sites comment on your blog? (And they are not moderated through?)
Occasionally I get people who come and try to promote their own site. They are rather rude as they just wade in and do so without demonstrating any relevance to my work and theirs is inferior or nothing new.
Trying to ride your coat tails! You’ve put in a lot of hard work. They recognize that. Most people are inherently lazy.
This and several other articles by HG should be required reading in all high school and college sociology classes!
Fucking A!
Someone is in a great mood today!! 🤪
😢
WTF does Fucking A mean? I’m serious. Does the added A to Fucking put more emphasis somehow on the fucking. Where did Fucking A originate and is it relative to NPD specifically? Please help this farm girl out.
It means damn right.
I am already explaining certain aspects of this to my 9 year old boy, since a girl told him to “pay his respects” to her. Kiss my ass little bitch. Not my son.
She needs disincentivising.
I agree, the problem is her parents who think that raising a “princess” will keep her from being used and abused. So they are raising an abuser.
KM, I have a 16 year old son who hasn’t started dating yet. Believe me, I’ll be vetting any prospects. Any red flags and mama will veto the candidate! I’m so glad I found HG in time to steer him away from trouble.
Yes. You must. I don’t know where you live and I don’t know if this is a worldwide “fever” but parents here in America are raising their daughters to be “princesses”. There are several articles on Internet about it. It is an epidemic where traits of narcissism are encouraged and reinforced by celebrities (who are real narcissists). So anyway you turn, these girls look like living copies of celebrities in the way they dress, act, treat others, and live their lives. It is very scary because it is like walking among snakes. Obviously not all of them are narcissists but fit some certain traits are so reinforced, encouraged, nurtured that if they don’t become a real narcissist, they act like one.
I talk to my son all the time. As soon as I noticed a girl taking advantage of him, I explain to him what she is trying to get. Some days ago, I got home and he was having a meltdown. Long story short, cuppiecake, one his “best” friends
suddenly stopped talking him and not only that but this girl turned against him in a game, because another boy looked “better” than him. Yep. It was a major blow. Let me tell you. I saw myself in my son. So I let him cry and vent his feelings. I hugged him, comforted him and waited for the questions to come. After I explained to him in great detail why she did what she did and what she was trying to get from him, he was DONE with that girl. DONE. Her parents later contacted me. Ha! I was already reading HG. Ha! They are narcissists. Do you think I told them the truth? Nope. I won’t help them to teach their daughter how to be a better narc. I came up with lamest excuse you can possibly imagine and every time the girl came over and knocked on the door, we never opened it…. even though my car was parked outside so they knew we were at home. No contact applied.
You can criticize me and tell me I am over protecting my son. Maybe. But I was raised by narcissists of all kinds. I was left in the dark my entire life. I will make my son fully aware. If later on in life he decides to try these waters, it will his own choice. But at age 9, my duty is to teach him and trust me, I am buying HG books. He will read them.
Awesome! Children are not taught to read and understand people behavior. It’s like tells in a poker player. So even as adults, they dont know how to read people. They think they can go on what people say and take that at face value. I know I did. They need to be taught to discern what they see and hear. You are saving your son tons of heartache and confusion! Awesome job!
Once I realized what I was dealing with, I never again turned to any other source for information / advice.
HG Tudor or bust!
I like you.
I second that.