10 Rejections of Intimacy
We embrace the trappings of intimacy because we know this is what you expect when our relationship commences. You want to touch us; you want to be touched. You want to gaze into one another’s eyes and revel in what you see there. The tenderness of the kiss, the tingling sensation that arises from the briefest of brushing touches and the safety and security of a hand being held. We endure all of this in order to maintain the illusion of our perfect love and to provide you with that which you have been conditioned to expect as denoting love, affection and passion. Such intimacy repeatedly hints at a place we would rather not go but the necessity of your seduction means that we focus on the task in hand and dispel those occasional thoughts of what that intimacy means and signifies. Those considerations are banished as we press on with our crusade and complete our quest. Once our tendrils are wrapped around you, our fangs sunk deep into your emotional jugular and the fuel flows, then the provision of such intimacy can finally and thankfully be turned to a better application, namely conveying rejection to you and in turn bring about despondency, humiliation and confusion. Whilst we prefer words to do our work, these rejections work marvellously well because of the effect that they have on you and the economy of effort that comes with them. Provision takes effort. Denial comes easily. Here are ten rejections of intimacy.
- No eye contact
I don’t want to mirror you any longer but I don’t want you seeing the lurking darkness in my eyes, not just yet. Instead I will settle for evading looking at you, creating the sensation that I cannot bear to look upon you, which is rather accurate because now you are reminding me too much of what I despise and I would rather look elsewhere.
- Kissing the top of your head
We know you want to be kissed on the mouth but that isn’t going to happen. Not today and not for a while until I decide I can stomach doing so in order to get something from you that I want. I will kiss you on the head, tilting your head down, making you lower yourself in front of me as I place the patronising light kiss on the top of your head. You are a child to me, someone who knows no better and has to be guided by me. You are bowing, showing fealty through this gesture for I am your ruler and your liege.
- Shuddering if you touch us
You cannot place boundaries for me. I go where I want. You however have no entitlement to me. You require my permission and especially so when it means violating my space. If you catch me unawares and touch me, no matter how lightly, I will give a violent shudder as if have been touched by something unpleasant so you are left in no doubt as to what I think about you.
- Turning our back on you in bed
This is done as soon as we climb into bed on the occasion we have deigned to provide you with our presence or not banished you from the bedroom with a well-time bout of aggression. You have your hopes raised of sexual union or at least the heart-warming pleasantry of cuddling up together. Instead you receive a glacial wall that is our back and if you think this is an invitation to “spoon” with us you will be sharply elbowed or back heeled away from us.
- Avoiding taking your hand
Once upon a time we always took your hand as we walked along the road, through a museum or around the shops, making you feel loved and showing the world that we were together. There was a time when we wanted everyone to know that you were ours. No longer. We will ignore the proffered hand, driving our own into our pockets or shaking off your hand if you happen to grab ours. You don’t decide to show others we are together; don’t you realise that one of my new prospects might see?
- Awkward Evasion
You try to place an arm around us and we suddenly jump up as if we have sat on a tack. You attempt to hug us and we move around you like a rugby player evading a tackle, often contorting ourselves into a move which would be more often seen in a gymnastics contortion. Our desire to wriggle away, duck under, escape and move apart suggests that your very touch might burn us. The exaggerated movement can leave you in no doubt that this was deliberate.
- One-sided hug
You have taken us by surprise and launched a hug at us, be it from the front, sides or rear. You will not have it reciprocated. There will be no return gesture, no warming and intimate response. We will stand like a block of ice, arms down by our sides, back stiff and stare straight ahead willing this uncomfortable moment to end.
- No longer naked
We once paraded around naked in front of you, letting it all hang out, without a care in the world. Truth be told we wanted you to look on our naked form and admire and it was also done to signal to your that we were entirely comfortable around one another in the buff. Now we behave like a coy virgin. We wear pyjamas in bed rather than sleep naked, we lock the bathroom door when we are in there so you cannot walk in on us and we always wrap a towel around us in order to cover-up our intimate areas so you cannot see us. If you happen to walk in unexpectedly when we are naked we will grab the nearest shirt, sombrero or fruit bowl to cover our modesty or dive behind a door, under a bed or out of the window. You don’t get to look any more.
- Proffering a cheek
You wait to kiss us and want to plant a tender kiss on our mouth. Others are looking and we must have consideration for the façade. An awkward evasion move now would be unwise and might invite unwanted speculation and comment. Instead we turn our head so you are left with no option but to plant that kiss on our cheek. We will not hold the cheek there either but pull away as soon as you embrace it. You are being given advance warning of your demotion from intimate partner to outer circle friend with this rejection tactic.
- Moving if you lean against us
You want to cuddle up next to us on the expansive sofa. If you do, we will get up and move to an armchair as soon as you begin to lean onto us. If you try and the sit in my lap, I will tip you up and deposit you on the floor as I leave the room and give you a silent treatment for pushing the matter too far. If I am lying down watching television and you try and climb on me, you may as well be trying to wrestle a crocodile as I will resist your advance and push you away before moving into a position which is easier to fend you off and send you a clear signal to sit elsewhere.
144 thoughts on “10 Rejections of Intimacy”
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This article comes at a great time to explain what I just delt with. Stopped holding my hand, opening car doors, hugging, he would just barely cuddle then after a few mins turn his back to me the rest of the night. Stopped telling me he loved me then when I brought that up I was gaslighted and told “i say it all the time” when in FACT he hadnt said in weeks, which by the way when I noticed he stopped so did I. I noticed these things changing about the last month and didnt heed the warning signs which is really not good I know. I had this onsessive need to be like a mommy to him and make sure HE was taken care of. I was CONSTANTLY cooking, cleaning, laundry, giving him hair cuts, hell, I even mass cooked then froze everything marking the oven temp & cooking time on the containers! When he started withdrawing all things to me like cuddling, hand holding etc.. I stopped doing for him too. Its devastating being shown all these things you think are true then they just pull the rug out from under you. I just glad only 7 months were invested in this creature.
Dearest Windstorm,
Thank you lovely “Mother Earth” … you’re very comforting and wise
👩🎓
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Following – as this entire string is hitting me in the feels… I need to GOSO too
Dear Mr Tudor,
The weasel kissed me “on the head” once and once only, after he made me a coffee
I was quite surprised and asked “what on earth was that for and why”
He replied “because” ….. I thought it “very strange” at the time …. now I know why
My mum always “presented” the side of her cheek to be kissed (it’s a wonder she didn’t extend her hand and expect me to bow down and kiss it) … never received warm fuzzies from her ….always cold pricklies
She struggles with displays of affection even now ….nothing is natural, always forced …she’s stiff when I hug her and sometimes she gives an awkward pat on the back
She never says “I luv you” … (although she writes “love from your mother” on a card) the most she can mutter is ” back at you”
My mother’s idea of affection for us kids was “shelling peas” and waiting on her hand n foot
How ironic …. I’m back at waiting on her hand n foot 🖐👣
Red flags … thank you Mr Tudor
You’ve done it again
Luv Bubbles xx
Bubbles
My D.A.D.* ambushed me at the public library and kissed me on the head last month, I was so surprised that I couldn’t think straight for a moment; I have been avoiding the library like the plague since then.
*Dirty Angel Dad
Dear K,
That’s what these numbnuts do … try to “fuzz” our thinking by doing random acts “out of left field”
Personally, I think they make themselves look ridiculous because it’s just not normal
In the end, I questioned the weasel’s behaviour because he became more unnatural the harder he tried
He basically lost the plot and couldn’t cope as I was one step ahead of him, kinda went into a psycho backflip .. haha
Man child couldn’t cope … boo hoo … haha
I’d steer clear of the library too K … well done
Luv Bubbles xx
Bubbles,
Your comment reminds me of my mum too. She never initiated any affection and when I would try and kiss her hello or goodbye or spontaneously at other times, she offered the side of her face and didn’t genuinely and warmly reciprocate. Sometimes when I was much younger, I even had to ask for a kiss or a hug! And even then, it was given grudgingly or the hug was stiff and awkward … but she would never refuse or feel awkward about being waited on hand and foot! Funny how that worked.
Looking back, I feel now that the relationships with narcissists that I’ve had felt (and still feel) very “transactional”. It’s a situation where they will only do something for you because they expect something in return. They will pretend to be loving or kind or caring because they have an end goal in mind. Or they will grudgingly go through the motions for the sake of appearances.
Most of the time with my family, I just wanted to be loving and kind for the sake of having a fulfilling and happy relationship. It took me many years to realise that my efforts, while genuine and based on good intentions, were willingly taken but never truly reciprocated from a place of genuine gratitude or empathy. Given the chance, they will take everything from you, until you’re destitute, and even then, they’ll gloat that they’re superior to you even while they profess to love and care for you.
Deep down, they do need us but they can’t openly admit that or believe it because it would mean they’re giving some of their “superiority” to us and that would make them weak and needy, which of course, they’re not…
It’s very difficult to maintain a healthy and consistent level of self-worth when you grow up with this unreciprocal illusion of what “love” is. When you can see more clearly what’s happening, it’s much easier. You need to develop ways to support your own self-worth.
Thanks for your comment Bubbles. I can relate very much to what you said.
WiserNow
“They will pretend to be loving or kind or caring because they have an end goal in mind.”
This made me laugh! All the narcs I’ve known, I’ve never had one pretend to be loving or kind or caring – at least not in a way that wasnt obviously fake. It must be some aspect to my character that stops them from even bothering to pretend. 😝
windstorm,
It IS quite funny when you think about it! 🙂 I’m glad it made you laugh.
I tend to deconstruct and analyse things in my own mind, and I think this “pretending to care” aspect comes from a “victim” mentality and I think it’s mixed in with being an “angel with a dirty face” too.
It’s not really as obvious and fake as it sounds when I say that they “pretend”. As HG often says, Lessers and Mid-Rangers aren’t aware of what they are and to them, their behaviour is “normal” and even “commendable” because they believe the “facade” is the real them and they are just being themselves, that is, they are being the “real” them by behaving instinctively. To them, their defence mechanism is not a defence mechanism at all, instead, it’s their reality.
So, when they’re being loving and caring to someone who is close to them, it’s not actually coming from a place of having genuine empathy and concern and from a selfless desire to treat another person well. They are doing something within a bigger-picture scheme of self-protection and warding off potential threat to themselves.
It’s like a transaction, but if you were to say to them that their behaviour is like a transaction, they would rail against you and be very insulted and hurt by the accusation, because to them, they are just behaving in the nature of being a “good person” and they don’t mean any harm by it, and they don’t see any harm in it. Your accusation would be a criticism and would “wound” them.
The “wound” comes from, I believe, a “disconnect” (they can’t see) between the actual “real” them, that is, the inner child in their subconscious that wasn’t validated and nurtured in the way they needed to be, and the “facade” them, that is, the persona that they’ve developed from needing to maintain the character they had to develop (or believed they needed to develop) in order to thrive.
I’m sorry if this sounds really convoluted or complex, but this is how I have come to see it in my own mind at the moment. I hope it makes sense 🙂
WiserNow
Thank you for your detailed analysis of Midrangers acting loving. I think it sounds very likely.
From my perspective they are never loving or caring. It always comes across as fake to me. Maybe that’s because I’m very sensitive to other people’s emotions and I sense this “transactional behavior” you described and instinctively know it’s not real love or caring. It does definitely have a different “feel” when someone is really concerned about me as opposed to really concerned about themselves.
Your comment is interesting Windstorm. It makes me think about true awareness and how a narcissist’s behaviour affects an empathic person before and after the point at which the empathic person gains awareness of what is really happening.
At what point in your life did you learn of NPD and become aware of the various manipulative tactics they have in their “toolbox”?
In my own case, this point of concrete awareness made all the difference. Before that time, I sensed something wasn’t right and I felt emotionally abused, but I didn’t know why. I thought it was a case of clashing personalities and that I just needed to “understand” or find a way to overcome the differences. This “not knowing” caused emotional confusion and the “fog” of narcissistic abuse (fear, obligation, guilt).
Now that I know about NPD and have practical awareness of what narcissists actually do (thanks to HG), I can clearly see the tactics being used without that sense of confusion.
Also, in my mother’s case, she is very subtle with her manipulations. When dealing with her, things do feel “not quite right” or emotionally objectionable, however, it’s difficult to pinpoint her machinations clearly in a logical sense. She can very easily claim plausible deniability and twist things around in a convincing way to paint a believable picture. Before I gained true awareness, her psychological tactics and denials would lead to me second guessing myself and trying to rationalise my own sense of emotional unbalance.
WiserNow
I was probably in middle school when I understood that my father was a narcissist. He was one of the over-the-top, obvious, always had to be the center of attention type narcs. He felt he had an obligation to manipulate people’s thinking and actions because he was smarter, better, more-informed, etc. than they were. He wanted me to be that way too and had tried to teach me how to manipulate others. I always felt this was wrong, so didn’t participate. But I certainly saw it done often enough, and I saw all the ways other people responded to him.
I began learning more details about personality disorders in my 20’s from my in-laws. Alcoholism runs strongly in their family and learning all about narcissism, codependency, enabling, ect., was required of all of us and there were lots of real-life examples of all of it in the family and friends of the family.
I didn’t realize my mother was a narc until I got here on the blog. I’d just always thought she was a hateful jerk. By the time I was grown, though, I’d learned that when she said something insincere or that was meant to be hurtful, I could just stare at her – totally dead-pan and unemotional- and she would give a little nervous “tell” Sort of like “tells” when people play poker. Whenever I saw that nervous flinch, I knew she was lying. Being able to see this really cut back on her being able to manipulate me.
Dear WiserNow and Windstorm,
Fabulous comments you’ve both made …thank you
I’ve second guessed myself my whole life with regards to my mum ….self worth didn’t even come into the equation … I had none
She’s always been judgemental and pretentious … she puts on a snobby accent to new people she meets …..to see it in play, is fascinating and quite the performance
She has zero tolerance for drama …yet creates it … we were always walking on egg shells
(I walked on egg shells with the weasel) ….those bloody egg shells, almost as bad as lego
She’ll bring things up (when she’s been wounded) when you least expect it (they tend to stew on it) ….then glare
To me, they seem to “overcompensate” with some sort of “inferiority complex” to begin with…with “narcissism” (if that makes sense)
I mentioned to her parenting is about “unconditional love” regarding your kids …. she just gave me the empty narc look ….hasn’t a clue
Its always been about her (brags about being a single parent, so did the weasel…. but look at me look at me, how good I am ) the yea ol great persona of “being good”
It’s funny… my mum and step dad had everyone believing they were the perfect couple and especially as they got older and held hands in public …… awe how sweet they said, what a lovely couple 🤢
She’s “nice” to me now …. only because I’m her only lifeline …another performance in play 🎭
What hurts the most is … I’ve always loved my mum ..she’s never loved me
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Bubbles
As my favorite US President, Bill Clinton used to say, “I feel your pain.” I think it will always hurt us to know that our mothers never really loved us. But it helps me now that I know she was a narc to realize that she couldn’t love me. She was incapable of loving me. It had absolutely nothing to do with me or anything about me. It’s not a testament to my lovability. She was the one found lacking.
Maybe thinking about it this way will ease your pain. It eases mine. ❤️
#11. Tell your wife you can not sleep at eleven, that is way too early and go to bed always at two, when she is fast asleep.
After our seperation, him living next door, all lights are out by eleven, or midnight latest.
I have a question about this…
Can an example of a rejection of intimacy from the narc also be them acting selfish during sex with you? As in only taking into account their pleasure? Or just being clumsy where the sex is “meh”.
There was a time that I noticed this pattern happening. Where the sex would be amazing and fulfilling. And then the next time it would be the opposite. Careless. Clumsy. Selfish. Then… It would go back to being explosive and attentive and the opposite of what it was before.
But it was never an outright rejection of intimacy. Although I did have that too (other times). I did have those times when he withdrew and withheld sex.
I am trying to differentiate between the withholding of sex and the, what purposely seemed to be “sub par” sex before it went back to being better.
Yes, it can be.
Well, his pattern for withholding sex and then not withholding seems so predictable. However the whole “not withholding” but making it “sub par” seems awfully middle of the road to me. I thought your kind was either one extreme vs. the other.
Of course when I (via text) told him how selfish his “sub par” sexual behavior was I got an immediate apology and the next time it vastly improved.
I am just trying to make sense of all this as I thought your kind also never apologized either.
FOTS
Midrangers apologize all the time. Sometimes they can even really seem sincere. My personal theory is when they really sound and act sincere, it’s because they sense they have made a mistake or overlooked something unintentionally and are afraid they may lose something that they want. They seem sincere because they are sincerely worried for themselves.
Hi FOTS, I believe that both empaths and narcs compartmentalise.
F.i. when Saint Piano makes you feel sad and mad an confused and stressed – then you switch to rationalizing HIS behaviour (not yours): by asking questions here and trying to understand why he does this, what his motives are. All while ‘forgetting’ or ‘compartmentalising’ your feelings of hurt and stress and sadness.
I used to do this. Until someone told me: “OK, I understand that you are working it out. I see your explanations. But how does it make you FEEL?” This important question was missing in my ‘research plan’.
Compartmentalising keeps us going, keeps us sticking around… I believe compartmentalisation can be useful when done consciously, but it becomes a defense mechanism when it’s done unconsciously.
Defense mechanisms are great to avoid pain. That is how they function. And FOTS, I believe that when you are ready, you will bypass that defense mechanism like a hero. You will research your motivations instead of his. You will face your pain and put yourself in the spotlight. And as a byproduct – his place will be more and more in the shadow.
Shesaw,
This (sadly) makes a lot of sense. And as far as how it makes me feel….well it feels pretty crappy. Until he pays me attention again and all is (temporarily) forgotten. Meh.
Thank you, Caroline!
Gab,
You aren’t gaining at ALL from your interaction with the loser. He’s not even hittin it right. I would personally just ghost on his ass but I mean if you must engage wait for him to come onto you sexually (via text) in some way and then just ignore his advances and then stop answering mid conversation. I would simply act completely not into a sexual conversation or sexual anything because I would convey my boredom and my just ugh for his sub par sex. Withdraw sex – you don’t need it. You don’t need his sex lol – convey that mentality because it’s true. You can get it wherever the hell you want.
Gab,
This guy sounds so like not stimulating in any which way. I think you are hoping this loser will get interesting again at some point but the truth is he is about as deep as a puddle and is boring as shit. How does your brain not go numb interacting with him? You are so much better than him it’s like whoa.
Ugh, show him how boring he is. Don’t grace him with your sex – don’t give him the gift of your pussy. He does nothing to earn the pussy. He puts no effort in – ugh – I can’t…like…I can’t lol. I still stand by ghosting on his peasant ass but I understand if you aren’t ready. Honestly, I’d just find someone more interesting or just get a vibrator lmao anything is more entertaining than this loser.
“How does your brain not go numb interacting with him?”
Doc HQ…. I wish my brain went numb. Quite the opposite. And he still gives me butterflies.
Hi Fuel on the Shelf,
I know we haven’t chatted here much and I do often read your posts….however, I will be brutally honest with you…sometimes I avoid reading your posts because it pains me to read them and hear the exact same thing over and over again…reports of how annoying/frustrating/disapointing/ predictable your narcs behaviour is…yet how you still engage with him. Please don’t take this as a criticism (I’m actually not trying to judge you but just offering observations in the case that they are of any help.)
1. You have knowledge.
2. You have tools.
3. You have support.
We all know that there are many out who lack all three.
Sometimes I’ll see your posts and still read them because I wonder if something has changed in your situation…only to find out it hasn’t. I say to myself; well, maybe I don’t understand the dynamic for an IPSS well enough (since I was an IPPS)…or perhaps she gets something out of repeatedly reporting the same types of scenarios back to supporters here, commiserates, gets advice and peptalks and goes back out into the world and does it again… (so in other words I rationalize your behaviour in my head). If you were a friend in my personal life, who was ‘in the know’ about narcissism and could pinpoint – maybe even predict – the narcissists behaviour and kept coming back to me, saying I just can’t do it, I’m stuck on him…eventually, I’d have to walk away. Not because I wouldn’t care but because I would know that I have done enough and the rest is on that friend. She would have to want to change; nobody else can make that change happen.
Because I’ve seen how many people here have given you support – they care about you and have your back – in real life it would pain me too much to watch a train wreck happen…a wreck that could have been avoided. So that is why I sometimes bypass your posts – it’s hard to watch.
You seem like a sweetheart who has a lot of love to give the world. And I think (correct me if I’m wrong) you’re somewhat younger than many of us here…if I had HG’s knowledge – plus, energy and youth on my side – my choices at the moment would be so different. You have so much life ahead of you.
I’d take Dr. HQ’s advice and use it to try new things…find your excitement for other things in life before it is too late. And ‘butterflies?’ Yeah, I hear you. But I’m so burnt from my past narc – that if I so much feel the slightest *flutter* inside when I meet or interact with a member of the opposite sex – I here myself say in my head “Oh. Shit. NO.” And I walk away in the other direction…because I *know* where those butterflies lead.
Another thing I’ve noticed is that every post of yours is about him. If there are posts about you or something else, they must be few and far between – because I’ve not seen them. I struggle to understand if you have much going on in your life for *you.* Just you. Because you deserve that. Your life shouldn’t revolve around your partner or lover – even if he is normal and not a narcissist. Maybe you don’t ever speak of them here but if you have some hobbies or interests; throw yourself into them – or find some!
This post may come across as harsh to some, or ‘tough love’ (but it is mostly just an observation of what I’ve seen in your past and current posts) and apparently all the love and support others have offered isn’t enough. Because I see many here give of themselves to offer support – I would be frustrated if I were them.
Just my 2 cents.
Fuel on the shelf,
That intermittent reinforcement …meh…
That dopamine rush…
I personally require more reinforcement or I get over it real fast.
When i was younger I may have like held on for a little longer but the reward system in my brain is different because of my ADHD.
The way you explain the way he reinforces you…that wouldn’t be enough to hold me cause I need a more hits of reinforcement that are of a certain intensity to hold my attention. I’m always in search of dopamine lmao – it’s gotten worse as I’ve gotten older.
So those nuggets that narc and psychopaths throw don’t excite me anymore. They get played out real fast when I don’t see anything materializing and the reinforcement isn’t as frequent or intense i’m like….bored and over it. I just can’t feel it anymore and im onto the next thing.
I guess in this situation my ADHD works in my favor lmao….
I could be wrong but I feel like he puts no effort in at all and throws you such tiny comfort crumbs when you reach out. Have you tried to like date other people? I personally would trying to accept that fact that this dude is a lie and everything i thought i liked about that person just didn’t exist. You are gonna go in circles for as long as you allow it. You can take your power back.
Fuel on the shelf,
You are so like stuck on this infatuation….like….analyzing his everything when the bottom line is that he is not as complicated as you think lmao. He is a narcissist. He’s picking you up and putting you down when it suits him and he throws these little crumbs at you which it appears you need to nudge him for because that is how little effort he puts in. This is not a reflection of you at all. You are amazing – he sucks and just isn’t that idea you have in your mind.
I think you are stuck on an image of someone who doesn’t exist
I think that you are unfortunately attached because of the sex….
I also think that you should look within yourself as to why you want to continue this interaction with him. Why would you want to be someone who shows no interest in being with you? That line sounds way harsher than it is supposed to but I’m saying this out of love and not out of me being an insensitive asshole. When a man doesn’t show the same amount of interest in me or treats me properly or gives me the proper attention I find it ugly. It totally turns me off. Once upon a time like yearssssss ago I would have gotten fixated but not anymore because it’s all so insulting and it’s a road that leads to nowhere. Don’t you wanna be with someone who values you? You are so amazing and I know you only from like a blog lol!
Listen, T\the dopamine rush feels really good (even though it is a foreign feeling to me these days lo)l. I can remember though….
Is it possible that this infatuation…dopamine rush…serves other functions…like maybe he’s your escape….your bandaid maybe or maybe you want his approval and his validation that you are worth loving?
I just want you to know you are worth loving that he is vapid and I swear to you…I SWEAR…if you were with him…you would be bored, miserable and empty. You would walk around like a shell of a person. So what they had another baby…..it doesn’t mean anything at all….
I feel bad cause you are driving yourself crazy over someone who doesn’t have the capacity to give a shit about anyone or anything other than himself and his immediate needs. There is nothing there…NOTHING….you are digging and searching for something that just isn’t there….
I know its all easier said thn done cause ive been there but try and consider some of the thing i said…..
xx
Doc HQ….
I read all of your replies. I am picking apart certain things you said that jumped out at me.
“I think that you are unfortunately attached because of the sex….”
Yep.
“like maybe he’s your escape….your bandaid maybe or maybe you want his approval and his validation that you are worth loving?”
Yep again. 🙁
Have you tried to like date other people?
No, not yet. I have gone out and met people, sure. Nothing has really come of it. I also am not knocking casual sex and I even thought about hooking up just to forget about him but I could not go through with it. I am still stuck on him.
What you are saying makes sense to me. I know that it does.
And that sub par sexual experience did annoy me and the next time we talked I told him. I figured he would get defensive and then ghost me but he was apologetic and then he delivered the following time.
The sub par time was the only time he has done that. He’s definitely withdrawn from it before (my reaction was a plain “okay whatever you prefer”)….but that one sub par time confused the hell out of me.
Of course that was quickly resolved and corrected when I expressed my displeasure.
I am guessing that was just to draw me back in.
The jackass still gives me butterflies in my stomach when I see him. It is ridiculous.
Then do not see him and you will not get butterflies in your stomach. He is a narcissist. Obey the first golden rule of freedom.
Yes…NEVER SEE A NARCISSIST WHO GIVES YOU BUTTERFLIES! Those butterflies will turn into bats that scrape your stomach lining.
Wow, gross. But I’m leaving my comment — as-is.
I liked that Caroline- butterflies into bats. Seemed appropriate on many levels. 👍
Thank you, dear WS. 🙂 It’s the (hugely) protective part of me, however batty my description.;-)
I think she likes the butterflies, HG.
I remember those butterflies well. I mistook the butterflies for loving/liking him when I now believe that it was actually my defense system saying, “You’re in the crosshairs of a predator!” HE manufactured those butterflies to keep you attached.
The Prime Aims:
“Never underestimate or fail to recognise the single-mindedness by which our machine like efficiency closes on this goal. The secondary and tertiary sources, the facade, the crows, the butterflies, the seduction, the devaluation and the disengagement.”
The malign and the benign.
FOTS
I understand the butterfly feeling. I would get butterflies from my ex as well. I could get it from the sound of his voice on the phone, the way he said hi to me, the hugs he gave me, the incredible love-making we had etc. It is NOT WORTH IT in the end! He is not worth it. FOTS you are WORTH more than he will ever ever give you. Keep in mind he is incapable of loving you. He can’t do it. I don’t know your story as well as others but I can relate to not wanting to give up those butterflies.
I had been escaped but I kept returning to him. I missed spending time with him and I missed the sexual pleasure. I thought I was in control and I wouldn’t get hurt. Wrong. Even the sexual pleasure and all the butterflies were not worth it. Please put yourself first and walk away. (I do not know your entire situation).
Pesky butterflies!
Broken Rainbow….
There was someone here (cannot recall screen name sorry) who said “How do I give that up? It is like mainlining crack!” or something to that nature. That was utmost accurate comparison. But yes….all of what you said. His voice, the intonation, the enunciation, his laugh. Touching my hand, seeing his name show up on my phone, even his scent. Good grief how do I give that up? This must be how drug addicts feel.
FOTS, You need to give this up because he’s never been yours and will never be yours to begin with. I don’t understand how you are still hanging on with everything you have learned over such a length of time. All he provides is a major distraction for all of the other life changing events that have transpired for you recently in your family life over the last year. If you are analyzing him and his behavior and hanging on for the next visit, then that is your rationale to not think about other unpleasant things you don’t want to deal with right now.
Part of that was happening with JN. I know another reader asked you if have tried dating yet and you said it’s hard because Piano Man is irreplaceable to you right now.
I think you need a complete detox from all men for at least a year. Just complete solitude and settle in with life with your kids and be immersed with them and in finding yourself again. This is so unhealthy for you. He is just repeating the same lines, same patterns over and over again.
Clarece,
I know that you know more to the story than most here so all I will say is that your explanations are unfortunately accurate and correct. It is so damn difficult. Where I am at is not a great spot. I am choosing something over nothing even though that something is always fleeting. Saint Piano is definitely irreplaceable. He knows it too which is why he continues with his push and pull. I will not get into the entire story but after events of earlier this week and a shitload of projecting bullshit yesterday I am back on the damn shelf. His wife is due with Baby #2 any day now so as much as that is a knife in my heart I think it will be his new distraction where I won’t be on his mind anymore. I am hoping this will be the start of a better detox.
Narc fuckery. 🙁
You are relying on the narcissist to leave you alone and you know that will not happen, thus your emotional thinking is causing you to remain engaged and in turn you are making an excuse for why you are not embarking on a solid no contact regime. You must not rely on you not being on his mind, you rely on your own no contact because that is something you can control, you cannot control him.
Choosing nothing is far more effective than the something. The something is stopping you moving forward. GOSO and do it now.
HG, I like your patience. That is a very generous, clear and kind answer.
I’ve been reading your comments, FOTS, and all I could think was: she needs an intervention. You’re an addict and you need an intervention. I know this sounds mean, but I think other visitors on this blog should stop helping you analise and confirm his behaviour. You already know exactly what you’re dealing with.
You’re not moving forward, stuck in the same miserable place. Please follow HG’s advice. You know he’s right. There is no love, no friendship. Cut all ties, and deal with the withdrawal symptons. You will feel so much better in just a few weeks. Do the detox. Cold turkey. There really is no other way. And come here to vent, and share your progress, to prevent a relapse. If you had a daughter(don’t know if you do), what would you tell her to do?
HG gave you the best advise(several times I’ve seen), I think he’s an authority in the department of Narc affairs. There’s nothing that’s going to make you feel better than to follow the golden rule. 🌹
Thank you, Rachel. I have stopped interpreting SP’s behaviour in order to assist FOTS. FOTS’ emotional thinking is so high that the logic of any explanation or interpretation has no effect. FOTS will understand it (as she is of intelligence) but it does not ‘stick’ because the ET is so high it will not allow the logic to gain a foothold and have an impact, thus the questions continue. With regard to the readers, I agree with you. Naturally they only wish to help (empaths of course!) and I toyed with not posting the analytical comments of readers in order to assist FOTS, but decided that this was not allowing people to express themselves so I allowed the comments through albeit they will not actually assist for the reason I have explained above.
HG
Yes!!!!! Thank you for taking the time to comment. Like Rachel said, it is generous and kind of you.
FOTS
I agree with Rachel about the intervention. You are seriously addicted. When I was highly addicted to my ex, the hardest thing I ever did was walk away. My logic mind told me I had to leave for my health. My ET kept me chained to him while I tried to get the courage to go NC.
GOSO now!!!!! Stop making excuses as that is exactly what you are doing (like HG said). The addiction will get better with time like it has for all of us.
Hi FOTS! Your final sentence, “Narc Fuckery”. Let it just stand on that and make the decision to close this chapter. Now there will be the new entity of the newborn to triangulate you with on top of existing wife and first child. This will just add a whole new dimension of push / pull games for him to use over you.
Like, why despite mind-blowing Avatar Caliber sex, does that even not lose its allure when it is never combined with actual reciprocated love that you can have in your daily life? You can remember and relish the escapades with him, but there has to be an expiration date to you hanging on to a married man with children (plural) now, who has been honest about one thing for sure – he is not going to divorce her for you. Like another reader said here, “it is just sex”. FOTS, you are not going to shrivel up and die if you don’t have sex for a year or two while you detox and just try to heal yourself. And I can tell you, that once you really do put a good length of time between seeing him or being with him and having no contact, your patience and threshold with the games and the circular conversations will plummet and you would be so put off by that behavior. You have a chance with your recent situation to have a clean slate and start exploring new places and things with your kids. You have some distance from “other people” now and that can be so freeing for you. Try to take advantage of that.
Gabrielle,
Doc Q is so right.
Your guy is boring! And yucky for you!
Seriously, he would not hold my interest, at all. Every time you describe him/your interactions, he just irritates me.
No offense intended, but there comes a point where I must speak frankly. I’ve had a gorgeous, sexy, very successful “totally knew how to keep my interest when we were dating and wasn’t a man-whore” narcissist, and I dumped him!
I’m now his friend, and I do so to help him a bit (long story/nobody cares), without it hurting me one bit. In fact, with boundaries, he is a neutral-to-positive person in my life now.
But your guy isn’t! How do we know this? You feel insecure and question yourself/analyze everything/he uses and abuses you… he makes you feel less… not more. That is not okay. You are precious!
You are not getting anything positive from this guy.
You are so much more interesting/cute/worthy than what you see, about yourself. You don’t even need this guy… he just manipulated you into thinking you so desperately do.
All that said, you know I’m never going to judge you. But you should lose this guy… you are wasting your creative energy on him.
I’ve tried a bunch of different ways to meet you where you are, in this site, in various ways…I really do not judge you or ever, ever think less of you… but I always do care.
So love from me, Caroline-in-green… I’m always for you, sweetheart.
Gab,
I repeat lmao…
You are gracing him with the gift of your pussy.
What has he done and what does he do to earn pussy?
Wait for it…oh…what is that? NOTHING.
You are rewarding his shitty behavior with your bangin sex when you could be gracing another man with it. Love, you have options. You have so many options you are unaware of because you are fixated on this nobody. Instead of fixating and devoting all this energy to this amoeba lets think of other things to distract you….
1. Improve your life and become even more successful
– Throw yourself into work
– Learn something new
– Hit up the gym – helps get those endorphins flowing and helps you look good on top of it. (Note: I am not saying you need to go to the gym because you don’t look good but some people like to improve themselves physically).
– Start a new project
2. Go out with your friends and meet people. You may actually eventually find someone that is worth speaking to – if not you make a new friend.
3. Travel
4. Do something you have never done before that you want to…
I would suggest dating but I’m not sure if you are there yet because you are so vulnerable and could fall into the lap of a new narcissist.
I would really work on self-improvement and stop worrying about what he is thinking and what he is doing. Block him. He is vapor – he is nothing….he doesn’t even exist. Also what you don’t know can’t hurt you.
Honestly, it’s been about a month since I disappeared on my ex boyfriend and it almost feels as though it never happened. It is such a strange feeling but I don’t really think about it. As time goes by it’s a distant memory …or like a familiar dream (or nightmare) lol. I’m just so fucking glad I didn’t move in with him or change jobs…thank god. I was literally days away from making a HUGE mistake and then everything went BOOM and I left. I didn’t wanna hear what he had to say because there is nothing to say. He is a liar and a fake and I gave him no reason to ever be fake with me but then again he has like no real insight. I actually think he is higher functioning in many ways than the last dipshit I was with. Take it all as a learning experience and when you see some signs you run for your damn life lmao.
I’m actually surprised at how easily I detached. Old me…young me… would have like stayed longer. The sex was actually really great – really on point in some ways. It wasn’t the kinkiest sex I’ve ever had – kinda vanilla – kinda mentally boring to be honest with you (strangely enough) but on a purely physical level he knew what he was doing and was eager to please and could get me off real easily. This sounds so bad lmao…it was like aided masturbation. I felt like I was staring at a faceless person in many ways – like no real personality behind the sex. It’s hard to explain. He would always say how he couldn’t fuck me the way he wanted to because he felt like he was gonna bust real fast. There was a lot of like stop and go – which is fine because he kept getting me off but I mean I feel like it should have been….more….mentally stimulating lmao – especially since he’s a psychologist. He didn’t talk as much as I wanted him to….oh well. It was strange cause I know he had all this BDSM shit in his closet – like ropes and shit but he never took it out. I mean to be fair he did mention tying me up – which I never let happen. Hey, at least I’m able to have sex again and I’m back to normal in that capacity and he made me cum. Other thn that he was useless like the others. I at least got a golden period. I mean I experienced that – even if it was short and when that shit turned off it was like abrupt as fuck and explosive. Look at me all positive tonight lmao…..
Bottom line….sex is great but you don’t need it. You can find someone better to grace your pussy with.
Lemme add that I’m not knocking people who have casual sex or sex that’s more noncommittal…it’s just not my thing.
My rules are simply that lol… my guidelines re sexual activity.
Gab,
The piano man in a lot of ways reminds me in a lot of ways of my first psychopath. These back and forth games started when I was 14 and I am 31 now. It ended this year.
DON’T MAKE MY MISTAKES. I spent so long (until about my mid 20’s) trying to figure out why he was always with his now ex wife or someone else. I wanted the dopamine rush, I wanted his approval (even though as I was approaching my mid 20’s I didn’t care about that anymore), I wanted him. I didn’t understand..why was I not good enough? I couldn’t comprehend it because I showed him that I could mind-fuck him into oblivion – that was what he liked about me so much (that is what he would say).
My mindset changed and I as a whole changed drastically in my mid 20’s. The biggest transformation came in my late 20’s and I started giving even less of a fuck. I realized I was always better than him. I am and always was smarter than him. He couldn’t puppet me the same way that he did to his IPPS’. He had some pull but he couldn’t control me and I would have played his shit right back. The very reason he found me so attractive was also one of the main reasons why he never chose me. He also wouldn’t be able to hold onto me and keep up this image he wanted to maintain. He couldn’t deliver. I DELIVER. I had evolved in so many ways and he stayed the same. He couldn’t future fake me in any capacity anymore. 1. )I was wise to all of his bullshit and 2.) I didn’t want a future with him and 3.) I didn’t want sex from him either.
I feel so bad for his ex wife…she was probably driven crazy! They have a kid together too! I shudder to think what he put her through. I feel terrible for partaking in some of the things I did because that woman could have been me. The more I found out about her the more I saw we were similar in some ways. We even wore the same perfume. He is with some other girl now and I only found out in Feb that he has had this girlfriend for a few years and check this… he had been telling me for two years he was single (even though I suspected he was still with his ex wife). Now I see he had another girlfriend. I found him on OkCupid just outta chance when I broke up with my ex who liked big dicks two years ago – this means he was with his girlfriend and hunting on OkCupid.
I remember on Valentines Day 2012 he somehow snuck away from his then fiancé and came to my house late and night and we hung out in his car. Can you fucking imagine if your man did that? HE WOULD NEVER and mark my fucking words…NO MAN…would EVER get away with that shit with me. He got away with so much with her – things he could NEVER EVER get away with…with me. It was a fucking gift from the heavens above man that I never actually ended up with him for real.
I WASTED…and I mean WASTED….SOOOO MANY FUCKING YEARS just hoping for a dopamine hit – for that rush he couldn’t create anymore….HOPING I’d be taken off the shelf…..HOPING….just fucking hoping….analyzing….obsessing…FOR WHAT?
I believe that infatuations and obsessions can serve various functions and can also evolve and morph into other functions as time progresses. So what was this guy to me….?
He was my drug. He was my high. He was my escape. He was my excitement. He represented what was fucked up, broken, and lacking inside of me. He represented what I desired and thought I wanted at one point in time.
He is air. He is faceless. He is an idea. He is my affliction. He is a disease – my disease. He was my crutch. He was my savior. He was in many ways a creation of my mind. He was my imaginary friend. He was me.
I’m too old for imaginary friends and as we have established nothing seems to give me that rush anymore. Yeah, I’m bored. Yeah, I get restless and depressed from the boredom. YEAH THIS SHIT SUCKS. I don’t have the luxury of falling back into bad habits for numerous reasons. It doesn’t work anymore. I have to find something new now. Evolving is the only option I have and I want to.
Life is too short to waste it on some figment of your imagination. Look into yourself and look at all this for what it is. You are going to destroy yourself and waste time on pain and nothingness when you could be living.
Don’t make my mistakes………save yourself for the love of god lol.
Dr Q,
Great comment. You described so well how we our narc relationships evolve over time!
“He couldn’t deliver.”
That is the bottom line. That is the truth about all of them in the end. Once we realize and understand this, we can take back over our lives and stop being a victim. After we realize this truth, we will never see them the way we did before. We see the real man behind the curtain with all his faults and inadequacies and we know all the ways we are stronger and smarter. For me this realization marks the point that that narc has no more power or control over me.
WS
That is absolutely true and, once you realize this, you walk away.
DR HQ, windstorm
Yes Dr HQ great comment and description. They will never be able to deliver. They do not have it in them.
windstorm
This is where I am. I now realize the truth about him and I can never go back. I know who he is now and while I have empathy for the little boy inside of him, I can never return to him. Besides if I did go back it would mean he would get fuel from me. I am no longer one of his suppliers of fuel. His control over me is lessening but it is still there.
Brokenrainbow
I don’t think of mine as “little boys”. They are grown men who have personality disorders. They all realize that their behavior hurts others, but do it anyway. I do love mine, but I see them for what they are and don’t make excuses. Without strong boundaries they will be abusive – because they choose to be, not because they can’t help it.
I think of them like obnoxious, irritating relatives (which they tend to be both literally and figuratively, lol!). We tend to enjoy what we can about each other, but without any illusions. Sort of like a tense politeness that doesn’t allow any abuse. I don’t mind at all providing fuel, but it is on my terms. Very “hands off.” They have no control over me and I have no control over them.
I don’t think it’s possible to do this if you tried to be intimate with them. To be intimate requires being vulnerable in certain ways and they will take advantage of vulnerabilities.
I personally think the first step in freedom from narc abuse is to stop making any excuses for them. They’re not “little boys”. It doesn’t matter what their childhood was like (it actually might not have been that bad). The reality is that they are grown men who choose to hurt other people for their own selfish benefit. There are other ways they could get fuel, but they want the easiest and the most potent and the only thing they care about is themselves.
windstorm
I should have clarified. I have empathy for the little boy inside of him that went through similar abuse to me (I know about a lot of his childhood). However I do not think of him as a little boy. I think of him as a grown man who chooses to abuse. I have no illusions about what he is now. It just makes me very sad lately. I tried to have strong boundaries with him but of course it did not work. You are correct though. They just want the easiest way to get fuel and they don’t give a rat’s ass how they get it or who they have to hurt.
Brokenrainbow
I’m sorry your earlier comment triggered a rant on my part. I understand what you mean, but i find it upsetting when people (and i don’t mean you) excuse narcs adult behavior because they were abused as children. LOTS of us were abused as children but that doesn’t excuse bad behavior on our part as adults. We have choices and free-will and in my opinion there is no rationalization that makes abusing others acceptable. Plus not all narcs were abused as children.
I have a theory based on observation of my family. My oldest grandson (6) seems to have been born without empathy. We all have worked with him since he was born to teach him cognitive empathy, but it’s a constantly difficult job.
He also has been very fearful since birth. I had to rock him all night the first 6 weeks of his life or he would scream, terrified and it took him two years to be able to sleep on his own, unlike his brother or sisters. He has never known any abuse and is in a very loving home.
My daughter walks him to and from kindergarten everyday (having to take the others 4,2,and1 along as well). She was commenting to me the other day about how horrible it had been picking him up that day because it was pouring rain.
I asked why didn’t she just drive the van to pick him up since it was raining and she said,
“Well you know how fearful he is in public and how he doesn’t do well with change. I was afraid it would freak him out. We’ll have to practice it first on the weekend before he’ll be ok with it in front of the other children.”
That really made me stop and think. My oldest son was that way from birth also. He is also a narc, too. He never suffered any abuse, either, but he was always fearful and untrusting in any social situation. Maybe that is a consequence of not having empathy?
Maybe to children without empathy, the world is a much scarier place because they don’t understand other people and can’t pick up on the kindness and love of the people around them? They develop their façade and their false bravado and draw fuel from taking advantage of others to compensate for the fear and self-lack they feel from not fitting in emotionally?
WS
If you have the time, read The Psychopath Inside by James Fallon. He was not abused but he is a nonviolent psychopath so you might find his story interesting.
He also writes that humans are machines and they are programmed to behave in very specific ways. We have no free will.
Another good book: Free Will by Sam Harris. It is about the illusion of free will and it is very short and easy to understand. It took me about an hour to read the book.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
“According to Harris, science “reveals you to be a biochemical puppet.”[7] People’s thoughts and intentions, Harris says, “emerge from background causes of which we are unaware and over which we exert no conscious control.” Every choice we make is made as a result of preceding causes.”
I do not have free will, I am programmed to be an empath and I cannot not be an empath. I am a thoughtless machine.
K
I’ll read those books you suggested. I do believe that we have free will, though. I agree that much of who we are is predetermined by genetics and environment, but there is an element of freedom of response.
I can’t not be an empath, either, no more than I could have brown eyes, but I am not just a thoughtless machine.
WS
You may enjoy them and it may change your perspective a bit.
I never thought of myself as a thoughtless machine until I looked at my childhood narcissism. Everything I did was about survival and it was completely thoughtless. No one taught me how to survive, it was all instinct.
K
I appreciate what you say, and while I am somewhat instinctive, I operate more by reason. Even as a small child I observed and worked constantly to figure everything around me out. I was one of those children who asked “Why?” to everything. And I was never appeased by, “Because God made it that way.” 😄
WS
Observing and constantly trying to figure things out is part of your instinctive wiring as an empath (truth seeking and tenacity). I did the same thing but it was too dangerous to ask “Why?” so I kept my mouth shut.
You are wired for empathy, awareness, insight and logic.
BTW the scientific jargon in JF’s book can get a bit tedious so don’t feel like you have to read it all, just read till you get the gist of it.
K
Even assuming we are “wired for empathy, awareness, insight and logic,” do we not then use these traits to make our own choices of what to do?
Being a retired science teacher, if I can’t handle a books scientific jargon, I’m going to feel mighty bad! lol!!
WS
According to Sam Harris and Jimmy Fallon we don’t. It is a fascinating subject. Your science teacher skills will come in handy with JF’s book and Free Will is very easy to understand so you will breeze right through that.
Simon Baron-Cohen also explains it ver well in The Science of Evil: On Empathy and the Origins of Cruelty.
K
I may have to read those books as well. They sound fascinating.
Windstorm
Me asking why was a very sore point at home. My mother would yell: Why?! Why? Why?! It’s never enough for you – you always need to know why! Well I don’t know why! I never understood why I was made to feel bad about wanting to learn because I was called stupid and was trying to be smarter. It was several years later that I heard two women speaking about their children and one expressed that her child drove her crazy asking questions. I was waiting to hear the other reply that she understood, but she replied: You should be grateful. An inquisitive child is an intelligent child. She couldnt know it, but she removed a little bit of my pain and shame in that moment. Words hurt but they can also heal.
I say we never stop asking. Or listening for that matter.
NarcAngel
My mother couldn’t stand for me to ask why. It never seemed to make any sense to her and frustrated her. “Why does it matter how electricity works as long as the light comes on when you flip the switch?” “Why doesn’t matter!” Years later I thought she must have felt that way because she had never cared why or how anything worked. “Because God made it that way” had always been enough for her.
I agree! I’ll never stop asking why or stop listening, either!
NA, I consider curiosity as one of my most important attributes. I also encourage it in my children and at work. I’m a lifetime learner. Like you, I’ve never accepted, “because I said so” or “that’s just how it is”.
Hi NA!
My cousin who I am very close with visits with me and my daughter once or twice a year. When my daughter was little like in the age range of 3-6, the three of us were driving around and my daughter was asking lots of why questions about our surroundings. I was taking the time to try to give a thoughtful answer or at least something better than “that’s just the way it is”. Later that night, my cousin pointed out to me she thought I was so patient because I tried to at least think up an informed answer.
It’s so true what the one lady said that an inquisitive child is an intelligent child. I always wanted to encourage a learner spirit in her. But not only that, the window of time for kids to ask their parents those endless questions is about what 3-4 years. Then they start getting the answers when they are in school. I used that as bonding time with her. I loved seeing what her little brain was thinking about. I wanted to encourage her that there isn’t anything she couldn’t ask me about and then trust that I would give her an honest answer. 3-4 years for a parent to suck it up and have those conversations with your kid is hardly asking too much. On the big grand scale of things, take a minute and give a reasonable answer.
Always stay inquisitive NA. Sometimes I wonder if that moment you were in earshot to hear that woman’s response that relieved part of an insecurity, is like having guardian angels placed strategically to help our journey. Amazing isn’t it that you can still recall vividly that conversation?
Clarece
You are a good mother for taking the time to answer your daughter’s questions. Encouragement and validation are both important values.
NarcAngel
I always got into trouble when I asked questions at home too. I have been called stupid my entire life. My father still believes I am stupid and two years ago he made sure to remind me of it. I was not impressed. I am the black sheep of the family. For years I thought I was adopted because I never fit in. I have always marched to my own drum which is not acceptable with my family. I like being different as I never wanted to fit into a box.
Asking questions promotes learning. Knowledge promotes growth. I truly believe personal growth is important and it should never end.
windstorm
I cannot reply right now but I will later today. I want to think about the points you made.
Hi WS! Very interesting points about how fearful your son and grandson were in certain situations from birth that were clearly how they were wired and not a by-product of lack of nurturing.
I did want to point out how what a devoted mother your daughter is especially with the consideration to your grandson to think to do a test run drive to the school on a weekend rather than do something impulsively changing his routine that could rattle his equilibrium. She learned that from someone… you!!
Thanks, Clarece. She is a very devoted mother, much more than I was.
In the same situation I’d have already told him that if it was ever pouring rain then we’d have to come in the van. Then I’d have just shown up in the van, told my upset son that these things happen and we couldn’t risk all the others getting sick in the rain. “See, you did great! We all have to deal with the unexpected. Now you’ll be prepared for bad weather in the future.” – Not as thoughtful and compassionate, but he didn’t turn out bad.
windstorm
Please never apologize for ranting. I do not feel it was a rant either. Communicating is important and I have not been on the blog very long. I enjoy hearing other perspectives.
I commend your daughter for choosing to do a “dry run” with her son on the weekend first. She is in tune with the fear in your grandson’s mind.
brokenrainbow
When you have the time type: sadistic into the search bar and read that article.
“However, it goes further than this. The reduced cognitive function of the Lesser (and to some degree the lower echelons of the Mid-Ranger) means that not only do they not care that you are being hurt, they do not know you are being hurt.”
“Thus when you are manipulated it is done purely for the fuel, it is not done primarily to hurt you.”
K
I read the post you referred to. I admit I alternate between “Is he aware? Is he not aware?” I remember plucking the petals off a daisy when I was a young girl saying “Does he love me? Does he love me not”. Did you ever do that when you were young? I know I need further clarification which will come through a consultation with HG when the time is right.
brokenrainbow
I don’t recall saying that nursery rhyme as a child but I did read this version to my children.
He loves me, he don’t!
He’ll have me, he won’t!
He would if he could,
But he can’t, so he don’t!
I thought my MMRN was aware but I have been here for quite a while and realize that my lessers and midrangers have no awareness. Take your time booking the consult; you will know when you are ready. These articles may be helpful, please disregard, if you have read them.
https://narcsite.com/2018/08/31/do-narcissists-know-what-they-are-doing-the-lesser/
https://narcsite.com/2018/09/01/do-narcissists-know-what-they-are-doing-the-mid-ranger/
“He was my drug. He was my high. He was my escape. He was my excitement. He represented what was fucked up, broken, and lacking inside of me. He represented what I desired and thought I wanted at one point in time.”
Bam! This resonates with me.
And MB I think it was? I like those butterflies. 🙁
Maybe I should take a break from the blog? While I appreciate HG’s perspective about my comments and not analyzing the behavior it makes me feel bad that he was considering holding back others comments. The last thing I want is to feel like my postings here are preventing people from being able to comment. I know he said that he decided to let the comments through but nevertheless I am wondering if I should just take a break for the time being.
I am still coming down from 2 interactions/get-togethers with Piano boy that took place in the past week and I am a bit of a mess at the moment; trying my hardest to keep my shit together so to say.
To clarify I did not hold them back and nor should you feel bad about that – you need to look to your own defences. If that means taking a break so you are not discussing him, fine but that MUST be done as part of your no contact regime. It is no good withdrawing from the blog but continuing to talk about him elsewhere (either virtually and/or with friends etc) and thinking about him. You should use the blog to remind yourself of WHY you must go no contact and to report your progress in that regard.
I knew what you meant HG. My point was I felt bad that you were considering (even though you did not actually do so) holding back the comments, that’s all.
Noted.
FOTS, actually, that was the closest I’ve seen HG to being an empath. The fact that he was considering to hide comments on his own blog, to help you. Taking time to write comments, to help you.(whereas he often tells readers to book a consult) Enabling will not serve you at all. I said I liked HG’s patience, because I don’t have that much patience myself. And I find the fact that you’re now considering to stay away from the blog (a bit dramatic in my opinion) but not saying a word about GOSO, very annoying. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
Don’t be mistaken Rachel, I was only doing it to ensure success. When my readers succeed, it is my success.
Yeah I know. I was trying to translate your behaviour to empathic behaviour. Don’t worry. (I know you don’t) I wasn’t accusing you of helping someone.😉 Still, whatever your thoughts are (success of readers is your success) and however selfish that may be, the result is good. And it is helpful, if people really take your advise.
I do know what you are, I’ve read your articles and some books. And I know that the person I was involved with, is a narcissist. It will always be confusing for me to interpret certain behaviour(I like to think people have good intentions), that’s why strict no contact was the best decision I’ve made. It’s liberating. That’s your succes.
It was not my intent to come across as dramatic. Sometimes this place gets to be too much for me and that was also the reason why I was considering a break. When I read about HG and the possible hiding of the comments it added to that consideration. I know that he clarified that. But I also have my other reasons. You are entitled to your opinion though.
FOTS,
I know you know that the advice HG and all are giving is good and helpful; therefore, I won’t add to the sound advice. I want you to know that I, like so many here, understand your feelings. We have been where you are, sometimes we are back there when we least expect it. It stinks!
I was married to a narcissist. I did finally leave but not because of it being the best for me. I now look back and wonder where the heck I had the strength to actually leave and follow through on the divorce. I thank God for that.
I jumped into a relationship with a possible narcissist. Oh those butterflies were so real! When I heard from him, the smile on my face couldn’t leave and my walk had little jumps in them. When I didn’t hear from him, oh the hurt and concern and confusion and activation of my brain to analyze. He ended our relationship so often, I found those butterflies turned into anxiety flies. At first I couldn’t tell the difference. When I was with him, I thought those butterflies were so happy that I couldn’t eat. When I was anxious during one of our ends, I couldn’t eat. I will admit that how I handled that relationship was quite the diet. I ignored my body. I ignored myself when I allowed my mind to become so occupied to try to fit those dang contradicting puzzle pieces together because things weren’t making sense and my mind could not find the logic and my heart was being a fool. I just needed that missing piece that would make sense of all. I became so stressed shingles broke out (good news is that I hear that I never have to worry again about those). I wasn’t listening to others; I wasn’t listening to me. When he would come back, I jumped back to him, with such hesitation, but jumped with hope. Quite interesting that I relied on my mind to find the missing puzzle piece but ignored it when it was screaming everything else. Ultimately, I ended things. When I want to contact him, I came to this blog and read. When that doesn’t help, I free write an email to HG and then delete it. Does that stop the want? Not always. I talk to my therapist. Sometimes I picture a cigarette. Some people can quit smoking cold turkey; others quit and still crave it for the rest of their lives but don’t touch it. I sure as heck hope that my feelings don’t stay for life, but I recognize I am not a cold turkey type. Good news: I am somewhat closer to following HG’s advice of blocking as now, for the first time, I can’t find a reason why we should ever talk again. Why won’t I take the step? Fear maybe. Maybe I don’t want to hurt his feelings. I don’t know.
Do you know what I have found since closing more of that door? Peace? Not completely. I have found that there are issues in my life I have been avoiding; there are aspects of me I have been avoiding that need to be worked on; there is a life of maybe never being held in a great hug again; and there is still missing what I thought was always going to be around. But it is not all negative that I have found. There is much less confusion and contradiction. There is much less drama. My child has my full attention, not just most of it (now free from checking my phone just in case, free from trying to make sense of it all). The time with my child is so much more now!! I am doing things I have wanted to do. It is amazing to be able to laugh and smile and enjoy a sunrise/sunset just because and not contingent on someone else deciding that I am worth a second of their life!!
If only I felt I was worth more than a second of his time would I have ended things a long time ago and not blinked at no contact. It is taking me finding ways to direct the energy of my emotions to take the steps I have.
I, like everyone else, look forward to the day that you post that you have gone completely no contact. We know it isn’t easy but you deserve the good that comes with it!
Hi Getting There! A lot of what you describe resonates with me too. Beautifully said. It’s not like life has turned into a magical Disney World, but life without confusion, analyzing constant drama, second guessing ourselves, and being the best moms we can be is golden too.
Beautiful post Getting There. I enjoyed reading it.
Gab…. dedication hour lol your turn xo
Two years of change
Now they say never change, never did
Keep loving me for a night
Think you’re free? I don’t quit
Come on my sweet escape for a while just to try it on
I’m dancin’ away
While it’s all fun and games ’til its NOT
We don’t wanna go home
(Better dance for us)
You’re fucked but, oh, you’re so fun
(How you holding on?)
I don’t know tomorrow
(If it comes or not)
But I promise for life you can brag ’bout tonight
You won’t save the night for me
You won’t save the night for me
You won’t save the night for me
And I ain’t never gonna go home
Ten years of highs just for fun
Not a height ’til I’m caught
Pain from the past like a small piece of glass in my heart
This should be the time of my life
You fucking made it your deal, your deal
And I keep dancin’ away
‘Cause it’s all fun and games ’til its REAL
We don’t wanna go home
(Better dance for us)
You’re fucked but, oh, you’re so fun
(How you holding on?)
I don’t know tomorrow
(If it comes or not)
But I promise for life you can brag ’bout tonight
You won’t save the night for me
You won’t save the night for me
You won’t save the night for me
And I ain’t never gonna go home
Hey, you got drugs?
Just need a pick-me-up only for tonight
Don’t tell anyone I was with ya
Yeah, it’s good stuff, but I’m resistin’ now
Take it if you want
Think I’ve fallen out of my feelings
Hello, Clarece. Thank you! I agree. It is so hard to let go of it all but it really is worth it. I look at my son and think of all the beautiful little things I could have missed with him by being consumed by all that contradiction, confusion, and drama like I had been. I’m glad you have found your way free of those to enjoy those golden aspects!
Thank you, MB!
Getting There
I loved reading your comments on this thread. Thank you for sharing your insights with us.
Thank you, Caroline!
(I posted it on the wrong “Reply” before.)
Hi gabs… i hope you dont mind me interjecting but your question resonated with me and i can from my situation say most definitely!! A situation where a narc would deliberately be mediocre in bed or make it obvious theyre only thinking of their own needs is when they feel for maintenance sake they “have” to be sexual even tho they dont want to be. Its their message that if they have to to keep you quiet then they will but theyll make sure the act has nothing to do with your pleasure or wanting to please you. That way you cant complain of lack of intimacy but you also derive no satisfaction from it snd walk away even emptier. Its a very passive aggressive move and i know your narc is passive aggressive. Hope things are improving.
Hi gabs…..im guessing the apology was for two reasons….one to act like he was sorry meanwhile taking pleasure in the fact his tactic worked(his nadc injury mended) to make you not feel worthwhile of his full capacity sexually and the second is he made sure to perform up to standard again for egos sake to put it on record hes still capable but let you know indirectly hed chosen not to be the tie prior. How do i know??? My narc has done this. Its very passive aggressive and meant to diminish and punish you as well as they dont really care at all about our needs only… maintenance!! All the good is for maintaining the so called narc/victim bond.
Chihuahuamum:
I guess it worked then! Ughhhh. I remember that visit clear as day. Before I met him for dinner he texted and said “we are not having sex tonight, I cannot do it, the guilt is too much blah blah.”
Taking advice given prior I just said “Okay, whatever!”
Yeah right….LOL. We totally ended up going at it anyway and it was rushed, clumsy and he was selfish in asking but not reciprocating (if you catch my drift) AND also his swift climax.
The next day he texted me to ask me how I was doing and I said “I have been better but thanks for your concern”
Him: “I am sorry, do you want to talk about it?”
Me: “Yeah sure. I am upset about my visit with you last night”
Him: “Okay well I am here to listen but please do me a favor. Don’t be rude to me. Share whatever you want but please just do not be rude about it”
Me: “You were very selfish in our sexual encounter last night in regard to….(what I summarized above in my 2nd paragraph)
Him: “Okay, I understand. I am so sorry for that.” (blah blah blah)
Me: “Okay, whatever!”
The next time I saw him guess what? Complete opposite. Not rushed, not clumsy, was attentive to whatever I wanted, asked me for nothing, continued to ask me if I was okay throughout the entire time.
My bond has definitely been maintained. And I originally planned to not even let him do anything after the prior time. I guess he knew that and went back to how it was before.
Windstorm:
Yeah, I definitely can see that. I explained what happened above to Chihuahuamum but yeah I criticized his prior performance and he profusely apologized and then delivered the next time.
Doc HQ:
Your replies and continued use of the word “peasant” make me LOL so hard! He went from sub par to stepping up his game the next time we got together though and had me seeing stars. Urgghhhh…..
Gab,
Your narcissist is fucking useless. What function does he serve? All he does is give you boring dick and whine like a bitch. He doesn’t even give you attention and just makes you feel like shit about yourself.
I’ve gotta keep it real with you lmao…I can’t imagine… like…my mind can’t wrap itself around this guy ever laying down some mind blowing sex lmao.
He’s sucha fake whiney little bitch. Yeah, sorry not sorry lmao. Dude, don’t you want like a man??? Don’t you want a man who acts like…. a man? Don’t you wanna feel wanted?
Whine, whine, whine…
Ohhh the guilt 🙄
Yeahhhhh… I can see it’s plaguing him oh so much he does it again and again.
Lemme take this further lol…It plagued him so much that he was able to use you to get off and not give a shit about making you cum.
You aren’t a fuck doll. You aren’t some object. He doesn’t even give you attention or a conversation! Shit… like try to seduce me a little. He is so fucking lazy and whiney… ughhhh!!!!!
Sexually, I live by a few rules…some are new lol – maybe they will be helpful lol:
1. This is one of my most basic rules lol. I fuck you only if I’m in a serious relationship with you because I get attached. I won’t allow myself to get used and abused and also attached to a shithead. I basically would like to avoid a shitty situation as much as possible.
2. No attention = No Pussy <— HUGE RULE
3. You abuse me in ANY which way NO PUSSY. <— sadly this is a new one.
4. You whine like a bitch… NO PUSSY
5. You’re lazy in bed… bye.
6. You make sex feel like a business deal or some kind of transaction – no – I’m not a prostitute – this is boring and insulting…bye.
7. If you plan sex too much and give time limitations – you’ve killed my mood… bye.
8. You cheat on me… you are dead to me and you will never touch me again. That is a promise.
9. Don’t reward shitty behavior with pussy. They have learned they can be a piece of shit and still hit it… nah not okay with that. <— I’ve been inconsistent with this one so shame on me. I plan on keeping to this one.
10. If you act like you don’t want me to punish me or let’s say you don’t – I don’t want you. That shit is ugly and I’ll easily find someone who does. I’ll do it so fast your head will spin.
These are the general ones lol….
Dr HQ, (re: post 8th Oct 2018, 0508hrs)
Your rules and my rules are the same rules.
They are underpinned by a conviction that the self has an intrinsic and unchangeable value.
Evan Marc Katz encourages women to value themselves this way. I found him, and now you, to be a breath of fresh air.
I value my internal chemistry set.
The experience of mind blowing pleasure and ability to have deep connection is a precious gift, and must be handled with care.
It’s like carrying around a box of TNT: “have some respect, this stuff is explosive and I don’t want my heart and life ripped apart if it’s mishandled”.
And not just anyone gets to touch it!
(“Don’t touch the merchandise”, as my friend used to say when random guys would try to pat her on her bottom).
EMK says that a boyfriend’s job is to make you feel safe, listened to, and understood. This is a bare minimum requirement. Does he make me happy? Does he add value to my life? There should be minimal drama and anxiety*** because a good man should have an attitude of wanting to please you, and be considerate. What is he there for otherwise?
Apart from that, he has to be emotionally available to have a relationship with you.
I like the idea that we gorgeous empaths are the CEOs of our own lives, and our love interests are the interns applying for the job.
If they don’t show up on time, put in some reasonable hours and do a good job then they’re out.
We want to live our lives with passion, with heart and mind fully engaged, because this makes us happy and fulfilled; if our choices are causing us harm by our own hand THAT IS BAD, and needs to be addressed immediately.
I have had to work hard to realise my value, and I will fight tooth and nail to hold onto it.
*** this was a revelation to me.
Hi FOTS,
I have read the whole thread and I really understand your difficult situation. You know he is a narcissist, you know he is not good for you, you know you don’t move forward but you are addicted to him and it is all that matters. You ask questions about him because deep down you think it will make him closer because you want to be with him.
But maybe you should trick your mind. You know he has a wife and family. And you know he uses you as his dirty little secret and doesn’t commit to you because he doesn’t have to. He doesn’t have to respect you and chase you because you let him have you on his terms.
So maybe change the way you think. Maybe “to get him” you should leave him, tell him “it is not what I want from life, I want a normal partnership and you can’t give me this, call me after the divorce” and go no contact. You will start to feel respect for yourself and you start your moving on process. Every day without him will be both rewarding for you (you will gain more self confidence, your self worth will be higher) and on the other hand – for him you will be more tempting, he will lose control so he will want you more. You read this blog. It is a rule that narcissist go crazy when you escape. They hate losing the power. So escape “to get him”. Let him come begging you to come back. But be strong and keep no contact. You know he is a narcissist so you can’t let him hoover you. Not before the divorce. You stay in no contact, starts dating others (to make him jaleous if you want) but one day you will find your addiction is fading. And even after the divorce you would tell him “get lost narcissist, I dont need you anymore”.
This is something I would do knowing I am unhappy because I can’t have him, knowing he doesnt respect me and only uses me as a toy. I would try to trick my mind – leave him not to leave him but “to get him”. And by “getting him” I understand the situation in which he comes begging me to come back and I reject him because I have so much power. What a feeling!
FOTS, you have already received valuable insight and information from HG and from other commenters who certainly know more about your background and the story you decided to share on this blog.
I have to admit that even I, as a neutral outsider who is not as familiar with the commenters‘ backgrounds as other long-term readers here, feel angry and restless when I try to put myself in your shoes and to imagine what you are currently putting up with. This is why I felt the need, despite the information that others have already provided, to type some of my thoughts out. They might come off as offensive – just know that it is my way of communicating my points in certain contexts. Those aspects I mention might be debatable but, from where I am now, I hope I can provide some aspects or some insight that might be helpful.
A question that spontaneously came to my mind when I read some of your comments – is there any space in your life where you have some quiet to truly feel and acknowledge the hurt and pain I suppose you are currently enduring and suppressing on a daily basis? I imagine that those emotions you are storing, this inner turmoil – they must be massive.
How in the world are you able to continually invest so much attention, time and affection when you get virtually nothing of true value in return? From where exactly do you draw all of your precious energy?
I understand that it is extremely difficult to separate the facts of this situation from your emotions.
Yet, this man is blatantly using and exploiting you.
By being accommodating, you are essentially telling him that you are fine with being disrespected, mistreated and repeatedly trampled on.
He does not value or respect you.
As far as I understood, you are not only competing with his current wife and their children (and, in the worst case, his future offspring) for (crumbs of) his time, attention and affection, you will compete with every person/appliance that will ever enter his life in the future while at the same time providing and comforting him with your affection. From my perspective, that is your only part and function in this story.
I get the impression that, by choosing to be – willingly and repeatedly – used and exploited by him and by being the person he might use the most, you are trying to make yourself indispensable. It seems to me that you are silently expecting that your continued investment will elevate you to a ‚special‘ position in an indefinite future. You are running in circles by trying to attain that elevated position.
He chooses to use you as long as you are willing to stay in his game, irrespective of what you are offering or how much you are catering to his needs.
When I try to put myself in his shoes, just for a moment, and attempt to view the situation from his perspective – wife at home who is expecting his second (?) child, a cozy family life plus, at least, one endlessly devoted Fuel on the Shelf who expects virtually nothing in return –, I would actually feel free to roam the streets while knowing I can return to you any time I choose. What would you see and feel if you considered the situation from his perspective, just for a moment?
It might be helpful, right now, to redirect your focus on this very injustice that is repeatedly and consciously done to you by the very man you claim to be infatuated with.
Anger, as massive as it can be,can be a useful tool to set yourself free. Sometimes, just a spark might suffice to take action and to slam that f*cking door shut. Other commenters have already stated that it will get easier over time and I can assure you, once again, yes it will. Those intense emotions, your addiction to him, will fade and lessen over time. You might be astonished if you already knew, at this point in your life, how quickly those seemingly overwhelming emotions can lessen and fade once you decided that ‚enough is enough‘ and made the conscious decision to break free from this toxic cycle.
He is not worth a second of your precious time, your attention or the amount of energy you are investing in this ‘relationship’.
I understand, as the others have already stated, that you are currently trapped in your emotional thinking. In my view, you are where you are ‚supposed to be‘ right now. You might currently not be ready to take that decisive step and put an end to this nonsense. Without knowing you, I still feel convinced that you already do possess everything you need to take action. Yet it might be the case that you have to run some more circles until you reach your private breaking point. Again, anger can be a massive tool.
I believe you should allow yourself to actually feel that and to use it in your favour.
Saskia,
You’re a treasure.
I get the impression that every word here is carefully considered and comes from a place of strength and experience.
Gabby,
You are precious, valuable and worthy of respect.
Your actions strongly suggest that you don’t believe this.
If I may, and I want to say this as gently as I can, I see a woman in an overwhelming amount of pain, who is self-medicating with the dopamine hit of random reinforcement with this particular man, and perversely ‘proving’ to herself that she deserves pain and ill-treatment.
As a daughter of a N-mother, I had a master’s degree in self sabotage and self harm, numbing pain with addictive behaviours, dissociating from the pain, gaslighting myself about the reality of things, and accepting abusive treatment.
I couldn’t see a way out.
Please take the lifeline that HG and this supportive community have thrown you.
Go to see a psychologist, and tell her how you feel.
Start there.
Just say how you are really feeling today. ***
Now. In this moment.
You’ve emotionally abandoned yourself.
You need you.
Who is looking after you?
No-one.
You aren’t.
These are the essential facts.
Nothing else matters.
(*** a few examples to get you started on reconnecting with yourself:
“I feel scared”
“I feel angry”
“I feel sad”
“I feel lonely”
“I feel unlovable”
“I am in so much f**king pain I want to die”
“I feel confused”
“I feel bored”
“I feel worried”
“I feel overwhelmed”
“I feel belittled”
“I feel beautiful and clever”
“I feel curious”
“I feel hurt and trampled on””
“I feel ignored”
“I feel nervous”
“I feel hopeful”
“I feel relieved”
“I feel relaxed”
“I feel overwrought and want to cry”
“I feel disgusted”
“I feel happy”
“I feel unimpressed”
“I feel embarrassed”)
Caroline,
I pretty much cycle through all of the emotions you list. With exception to beautiful and clever.
I was seeing a therapist but took a break due to financial issues. It is impossible to find one who takes insurance and does not operate at the out of network level on coverage, and that is very costly hence the reason for the break.
Your comments about the dopamine rush, self-medicating and random reinforcement also make a lot of sense to me.
I also wanted to address the comment you made about having an N-mother as it resonated with me. I do not think my mother was/is a Narc but she is severely mentally ill (diagnosed with severe depression and schizophrenia) but has MANY of the Narc “characteristics” that HG describes like no boundary recognition, totally different perception of reality, denying/projecting and so on. Nothing was ever her fault and she always would repeat “I AM A GOOD MOTHER. I AM A GOOD PERSON”. Yeah, no.
There would be times she would be cheery as sunshine, never sleep, be up making pancakes at 2am and pounding on my bedroom door to “wake up and sit with her and have some pancakes” (when I had to be up for school in a few hours). Then there were the times she was passed out on the couch for days without moving except to get up and go to the bathroom or eat something before returning back to the couch.
She was never much of a silent treatment kind of person. She would easily explode at the slightest rage. I was always frightened of her and would go to my room and lock my door while she would throw herself against it and try to break the lock.
Your response is starting to “trigger” me slightly (I also hate the word trigger for some reason) but for now I will finish my thoughts to get them out there.
She was prone to physical violence (slapping, scratching, biting and hair pulling). She used to claw at and bite my father when they would fight. And until I began fighting back she used to use physical violence against me too. She never clawed or bit me though….she would smack me or pull my hair out of my head.
And now that I have typed that last sentence it sparked a memory from my last sexual encounter with Piano boy where he did the same thing to me. Before we undressed he would smack my ass. (playfully) But I asked him to continue and he did. And while I was having sex with him I actually asked him to “pull my hair” and he did. And I did it back to him. It was not painful and it did not upset me. It was wild, erotic and crazy. When my mother did it, it hurt and made me cry and I hated it. Yet Piano boy does it (when I ask him to) and it is sexually thrilling. He always constantly asks me if I am okay during sex so I know he would not make me do anything I did not want to do. I wanted those things. WTF is wrong with me??!!
Yikes for all of that….sorry. Anyway, my long winded rambling aside the point I am trying to make is your comments about suffering with a Narc mother really strike a chord with me for having dealt with similar awful chaos. Tying it back to Piano boy was just a realization that came from recalling those memories.
Hi FOTS, I have been reading the thread and amazed at all of the great advice that were thoughtfully given. You are obviously struggling with your addiction to him so even though you know what the right thing to do you are having a hard time with the implementation part. I think that you should just do it no matter what. Just GOSO. Just do it and not think about it. Don’t rationalize it anymore. If you made a decision and tell yourself that you will stick with that decision no matter what, then it is easier to fight the addiction. He’s not worth your time. Take care.
FOTS/Gabs
You are right there with your thoughts! Lets put this all together
I feel like I have walked into a gathering of wise women. There is something large here, but the wise women seem to be blind!
“It feels very like a rope!” “It feels very like a trunk!” “It feels very like a wall!” But as someone who is observing the bigger picture, I impulsively run in with a megaphone, and while slapping this large thing that you are looking closely at parts of, yell “It’s an Elephant!!!!”
“Gabs is having an affair with her mother!!!”
What she describes with her mother, is what she gets with Piano Boy,
It is her normal.
Perse
Bingo. I was hoping someone else would raise that subject so that it could at least be considered.
OK, I’m not the only one.
That elephant sure takes up a lot of her life.
I wonder sometimes if I have an elephant that isn’t being seen.
But i saw this one.
Persephone in Sunlight…
If it is one thing I hate about Internet forums it is the inability to detect sarcasm. I feel like I am detecting sarcasm here so before I respond I am checking to see if your response was actually meant to be sarcastic……
Dear Gabs,
No sarcasm intended.
I may have had a bit of fear that I would be attacked for it. Others are smarter then me, and even Doc didn’t point it out. But I couldn’t unsee it.
I think you don’t just tell Piano Boy to shove off, because to you, his actions/words are what has been normalized to you.
What you describe as your experience with your mother sounds so very like what Piano Boy has been described as doing.
So now you are experiencing this with a “not mentally ill” person, and you may think you can handle it, no problem.
It is still aberrant behavior, no matter from him or mom. You don’t deserve it, and it still hurts you. And I didn’t mean to hurt you, too, and I’m sorry if I did. But I want you to consider why you might actually put up with his behaviors, even though intellectually you know they are not “right” behaviors.
Hugs to you,
Perse
Perse,
I am not attacking you and did not mean for it to come across that way if it did. I was just looking to see if your response was indeed sarcastic. Thank you for clarifying that it wasn’t. You did not hurt me, I just did not know how to interpret your comment as being genuine or being sarcastic, that’s all. Again, thank you for clarifying.
FOTS,
I’ve been reading these comments catching up a bit. You know that we had similar situations. I was IPSS, as addicted as you are and felt as helpless – I just wasn’t here on this blog during that period. You also know that I escaped.
There are lots of good comments/advice here but I thought of something that I haven’t seen anyone talk about anywhere on this site. I haven’t spoken about it either perhaps because I am ashamed of thinking this way or maybe I am ashamed that I was ever involved with MRN. But here it goes. I hope HG does not take offense but I think this angle needs to be explored and I guess he won’t put the comments through if he finds them too offensive.
During the 10 days before my escape (following 6 months NC during which I struggled a lot), I had this sudden realization that MRN was mentally ill – had developmental disabilities – like someone with Down Syndrome or schizophrenia. This happened when he suddenly went into stranger mode after a week of love bombing, though we were not in the FR and I had not done anything “wrong.” It was a pattern that I recognized and so I said that I wouldn’t return to the FR. He then hoovered and I engaged as a “friend” (not knowing what a hoover was at the time), and my impressions of his mental deficiencies were reinforced. I thought this way before (Aspergers, for instance) but had not accepted it.
He hoovered like clockwork (a sign of his disorder) but I began to feel that I was talking to a little boy (another sign). At one point I even told him I was proud of him for something, the way one would tell a child who got a high grade on a report card. He was fishing for my approval and he was pleased. I know we often throw around the “men are children” line but I suddenly felt really alienated – like I had never understood the first thing about him. Why? Because of the sex (more on that below). Later during this period (right before I found this site) he turned into a monster but I now see that he was just a boy in a man’s body throwing a hissy fit.
I didn’t consciously ask myself if I really wanted to sleep with a little boy but somehow the feeling crept in that I had, and my desire for MRN disappeared. I did not want him to touch me – I did not want him that way anymore at all. I was not sure of what he was yet, and this wasn’t all clear to me at the time, but I do know that I am not attracted to mentally ill boys and I was slowly coming to the realization that this was him.
Anger helps too (others here mentioned it and I agree), and I was also angry – furious really, but one gets furious with children too, right? I think the combo of the anger and my feeling that I was not dealing with a mentally healthy real man helped to neutralize him in my mind. I am only attracted to men – not to boys. I am not a pedophile (speaking of pedophiles, as we were on another thread). Whenever I find my mind drifting to him (very rarely now), it helps to remember that he is mentally ill, which is why he seems like a child. I haven’t found NC difficult over the past six months (in contrast to last year, when I was miserable) – a few weaknesses but no missteps. I think I have been able to stay away in part because of this blog but also in part because of this mental trick.
This wasn’t something I decided to think or that I manufactured – it came naturally as I observed MRN’s behavior. But maybe it can be manufactured if you take a step back and focus on Piano Boy’s childish traits. As those become clearer, it might help you to realize that you too are sleeping with a person who is mentally ill/has developmental delays.
Maybe you could start by taking a break to cool down but if you are finding that too difficult, you might move towards escape by first erasing the ‘feelings’ and then going NC – that was easier for me. At least step away psychologically and study Piano Boy’s behavior clinically – put it under a microscope, write it all down and look for patterns. Maybe you will suddenly see that he is not a man and that he has a mental illness – and you will begin to regain some control and lose desire for him. Focus on losing that desire rather than on the void that you worry you will face if you go NC right away. Maybe it will lower your ET enough that you will stop going around in circles, unable to disengage.
Not every woman in the world is on this site – only those of us who have been entangled with someone whose mental illness manifests in part sexually, as that is what seems to have brought most of us here. Narcs are NOT fully realized men. They are boys who use sex to “prove” to themselves that they are men. How narcs DO sex – what they do WITH sex – is therefore a sign of their mental illness, not of their power/virility, deviousness or attractiveness. And by “sex” I don’t mean just the act, which might be fine/fun, even affectionate, but the whole complex in which we become entangled. HG writes from his perspective that sex is fuel, which it is to him. For us, though, sex is the tie that binds because we are emotional women. You have to take your body back to break the spell and escape. The only way I found to do that was to finally see that MRN was mentally ill.
We are like fish flopping around in a net made possible by sex. But in reality, sex is only a few strands of the net. Those strands might be fine – even great – but what tripped me up and made it so difficult to escape is that I couldn’t separate the sex strands from the rest of the net. How could those strands be good but the rest of it such a tangled mess? Once I was able to push the sex to one side it was much easier to see the holes in the net and escape. That became possible when I saw that MRN was mentally ill and I basically recoiled.
I realize some of these thoughts are half formed (and maybe half baked), but I thought I should get them out here while everyone is giving you advice. Maybe something in here will strike a chord and help. I am curious about what others think too. I think it’s really difficult to face all of this because it means we’ve been intimate with a very sick person and we don’t want to accept it.
SMH,
So much of this made lots of sense to me. It has been almost 2 weeks since I have had any communication with Piano boy. It has not been easy but I have experienced slight holes in the “net” that you speak of. However I am also hit with tidal wave flashbacks of all of the good times with him, not just the sex but the other time spent with him, laughing and talking in person or even on the phone. It is not easy.
His second child was born yesterday and I saw the updated profile pic when I looked at her Facebook page. It was like a kick in my stomach. Not that I want to have a baby (that part of my life is over and I have been “fixed”) but more so the jealousy of their relationship. (jealous of her status with him). These feelings have made me not want to reach out at all. I also feel like he has effectively deleted me to focus on her and the new baby (or he is carrying on with whomever else is in the woodwork).
He has also not made any formal social media announcement at all, no big splash like he usually does, which is very odd. In fact the whole pregnancy there was nothing on his social media at all, no pics of her or with her, nothing.
I often wonder if he his separating his double or triple lives OR if he is essentially “freaking out” like the “little boy” he is over having another child. I am sure he loves his new baby son and he says that it was planned but he always said “I want to give my daughter a sibling”. So I do not think he wanted the baby. He is probably doing it for his facade. How can you not announce your own son’s birth on social media? It just seems so odd.
Anyway sorry to go off on a tangential response there but your reply to me definitely makes sense and adds some clarity so thank you for that.
FOTS, Although you are jealous of her relationship with him, your logical brain knows you don’t really want to be his IPPS. No love is there either and you know that. I’m sorry you are going through so much pain with the baby and the withdrawals. The haze of your addiction is keeping you from being able to see clearly. Two weeks drug free is a great start! I would love to see you consult with HG if you haven’t already. You are very brave to be here telling your story. Hugs and strength. You can do this. There is somebody out there worthy of your love. This guy doesn’t have the capacity to appreciate it. You are pouring all that you are into a bucket with holes in it.
MB
FOTS,
No, it is not easy. Missing the friendship is why I tried to be friends with MRN, but the same patterns prevailed. I still had to walk on eggshells, I still had to let him initiate everything, it was still all about him, he still needed complete control. MRN did not know how to be friends and neither does Piano Boy – the laughter and talking are all part of the sex net. It is a no win situation for you and it will never be any different no matter how you maneuver things or position yourself – as IPPS (which, as MB points out, you don’t want to be) or as IPSS.
Piano Boy is not announcing his son’s birth because it takes attention away from him, as will that child throughout his whole life, poor thing. MRN once said that one of his daughters was ‘nothing special.’ She had won an award and he had missed the ceremony (before we met) so he had to make sure to get to the ceremony for the next one. Why did he miss the first ceremony? Why did he have to come up with reasons to be at the second? Again as I said in my previous post, these are things a child would say/do – IPPS (i.e. mommy) is making me go to this awards ceremony. What normal man treats their kids that way?
Do you really want to have sex with a child? This is what you have to ask yourself. Now is the perfect opportunity to completely escape. Keep punching through, make the holes bigger. Take the next step and stop looking at social media. Stop trying to figure it out because there is nothing to figure out. When you feel stressed come here and write it out. Know that Piano Boy is unhappy no matter how you slice it because he needs ‘conquests’ to build himself up. He is a bottomless pit of need (or as MB says, a bucket with holes) and neither you or anyone else, including (clearly) IPPS, can fill him up.
Of course I do not want to have sex with a child. I never looked at it that way before. The magnetic pull I feel towards him is ridiculous. Makes me feel like I need to merge with him. I know that is what they seek from us. Fuel to be filled up. Yet I seek him too. I often feel like I need him to soothe, quell and comfort me. And of course smack my ass and pull my hair. Sigh.
Yes these 2 weeks have been awful with brief flashes of SOME clarity, that I will not lie.
It is still really chapping my ass that there has been no social media announcement at all. I know everyone will say “who cares” but I overthink it. He always posts pics with his older daughter, never an issue.
I knew her estimated due date but had no clue the baby was born as he did not make any announcement at all (text email or social media). I only know because I saw that she updated her FB profile pic. I am not FB friends with her but was able to see the updated profile pic of her holding the baby. This was 3 days ago. I am still FB friends with him and he has not posted about it at all. His page is a ghost down and I also noticed he hid his friends list too (he has not done that before)…
The whole thing reeks of shadiness. It’s like one hand I wanted to reach out and acknowledge it and say “congrats” but since he did not formally announce it on his page I am just keeping quiet.
So if anything it is a way to keep me from NOT talking to him for the time being.
Plus our last conversation (where I was called a stalker for liking 2 pics) really irritated me.
Familiar. My ex used to roll over and fall asleep on romantic getaways; avoid touching me while sleeping; and demand non-mutual sexual favors that he would then not reciprocate, getting dressed and leaving before it could even be brought up. I was scared to put my arm around him. It is like they have a handbook somewhere, isn’t it?
This is my husband. I’m afraid to even brush up against him.
@FOTS
I actually asked him to “pull my hair” and he did. And I did it back to him. It was not painful and it did not upset me. It was wild, erotic and crazy. When my mother did it, it hurt and made me cry and I hated it.
I think is what you must be referring to in your last message to me on ‘Matrinarc’
Hair pulling is a common sexual act and I do hope you feel no shame because, in my point of view, there is none to be had. Teasing this out, sometimes it’s hard for the brain to reconcile acts committed against us in childhood (hair pulling) and acts in the bedroom. I think maybe it’s because when your mum pulled your hair you were probably already in a heightened state. not of sexual arousal but of fear.
I adore a bit of the old hair pulling, choking etc. MN asserted several times growing up that she harmed me by putting her hand on my mouth. Once as a baby and it actually left a mark. Another time when I was older were, I believe I witnessed something that she did to my brother at my grans house. I started to cry out and she put her hand over my mouth. I don;t have a memory of what I said or even saw.
So in summation. Enjoy the act and if you can think of it like this – there is ‘good’ pain and ‘bad’ pain. For pain to be considered ‘good’ your body (and mind) need to be warmed up first. Pain from zero to 60 mph is always bad.
Put your mind at rest sweetie and focus on THE bigger issue – getting that piano cockwomble out of your life once and for all.
As to ‘mainlining crack’ YUP! That’s a Renism. I’m actually quite ashamed of that comment as it was a throwaway one. That man is actually still around but I am not in love with him nor have other feelings for him either. It is suiting me therefore I have no wish to go NC with him. That may change in which case it will become a GOSO and a NC.
I do perceive your situation with piano N to be different though. I also advise a NC to give yourself a breather if nothing else.
Hi Renarde,
Yup, that is what I meant in the “Matrinarc” post, yes you found it. I linked those 2 replies together since the experiences stirred something within me. And that was you with the “mainlining crack” comment? Throwaway comment or not, it stuck in my head as the most accurate description about my MMRN (Piano boy). I have had periods of NC (the longest was 5 months). I am not entirely versed on your situation(s) with your Narcs but unfortunately for me I am in love with Piano boy and I crave whatever crumbs he throws my way. I know he won’t ever leave his wife (who has taken him back despite learning of some of his prior cheating).
Piano boy goes through periods of indulging with me and then wanting his space. His only excuse for wanting his space is “his guilt and shame” from cheating on his wife which I am told is just an excuse to push me away and (possibly) carry on with others. I wish I was not in love with him.
“For pain to be considered ‘good’ your body (and mind) need to be warmed up first.”
Makes sense. He definitely knows how to do that unlike anyone else.
Hey….he enjoys being choked (which I was very nervous to do at first pretty much because I was scared I would hurt him and I did not want to do that) but I did it.
Oh my lovely, I want to hug you! I have been EXACTLY where you are. I was a IPSS and a DLS for a GCN a few years ago. It fucking sucked.
I was never devalued. I had IMs coming out of my ears. Daily. My golden time never ended. Nine months in total.
But it dragged me down. It broke me.
He triangulated me once too often and I finally Went off like a rocket. I thought I loved him too.
I began to hunt down his matrix. At the time, I had no idea of the whole set up. I just fucking knew there were others. I just didn’t yet have the key info on fuel.
A week this went on for. He then deployed the suicide manip. It went messy after that. Then ended.
I know from my experience that ending it is hard. It’s tough and you need to be in the right place.
Please do end it, if you can.
Here rooting for you!!
Hi Renarde,
A GCN? Greater….cerebral? Yikes. I am fairly certain Piano boy is a cerebral too but he is definitely not a greater with his woe is me tortured soul nonsense, silent treatments and the whole rest of the typical mid range repertoire. A large majority of his time is spent watching Cartoon Network, Lord of the Rings and anything DC Comics/Marvel/Superhero related on Netflix. And if course anything music related (classical and jazz mainly), he has an incredibly vast vocabulary. And yeah he plays piano but not on any sort of grand scale. Mostly small composing projects and wedding gigs. His day job is a receptionist/front office person at a physical therapy office. I enjoy his intellectualism but there are times it overwhelms me and I try to keep up. His large vocab has sort of rubbed off on me so to say.
I wish I could find out who else he is involved with sometimes. There has to be at least one more aside from his wife (IPPS). He runs a tight social media ship though and only tends to post things that brag about his “family man” facade. Which are mainly posts about music, movies and pics of him posing with his daughter (once in awhile a rare pic of him with his wife). He has an active presence in town and plays piano for 2 different churches.
The concept of a Greater Cerebral sounds utterly frightening! I am curious to hear more but also nervous. LOL.
I am so grateful for that article ! You FREE my spirit of a black jail . I was so in schock reading this and realizing that this was the history of my life for one year with the narcisist ! I cryied so much. ..I tryied to touch him and he jumped like a frog or a scare kid ! Making me feel HORRIBLE! Everyrhing You describe is so perfect ! Is like you and your kind could read ou souls .
I am afraid of you and your kind. Dont look like humans.
I notice that the rules repeat with all the narcisists. Is this a ” book ” that you follow / study- or all narcisist born with this ” evil rules ” natural inside ?
Read the article ‘Do Narcissists All Operate From The Same Book?’
Thanks, i will ( and i am reading ) everything from you. The best thing i saw in decades! You do a honest job.
No doctor or police or whatever cpuld helped me since i find your blog.
I was thinking about kill myself, until i read you and see that was not my fault.
Thank you, thank you a lot!
Please, if you feel suicidal again, reach out.
I felt the same, Renata. When reading this article a while back (and when reading Sex and the narcissist), for a moment I thought HG was “my” narcissist. Of course I quicly came to my senses, because that imbecile would never be able to write a book, and he’s a fucking penny pincher. Still, it’s weird to read these words. Also your words! When I tried to cuddle after his cold, mechanical sex, he also jumped like a frog. I’ve never seen anything like that in my life.
It’s good for me to come back to this site every now and then, because sometimes emotional thinking takes over. Reading articles like this one, and comments like yours, keep me from doing something stupid like getting in touch with the person that made me feel disposable. In all honesty, I don’t understand why I even would want to do that. This whole experience with the narcissist has been a real mindfuck, made me behave and think in ways I never did before. When in reality, he’s not a catch. I am. Don’t mean to sound arrogant, but actually I’m way out of his league. I hate that I allowed him to mess with my mind. And I hate that there are still moments when I wonder if it really was that bad. (It really was!!)
Rachel,
“Disposable.” Yes, that is exactly what we are (to them) and this is a great word to repeat to myself when I am thinking about texting. To me, this word encompasses everything about interacting with another human being that is wrong, despicable, and unworthy.
Do not text Supernova DE. 💪Things were so much easier without smartphones! You can ruin all the peace in just a few seconds. It would be great to go back to: 📬📠☎️🕊 (For narcs on the other hand, this is the best time….)
But this describes exactly how I now act/react. After 40 years and your words, HG, I am repulsed in the realization that every pretence of kindness was just a facade.
I don’t want him to twerk my “cute cheeks” I now know that is his grand fuel prize to have his cutie pie.
I don’t want his love bombing underhanded compliments. I know they will be followed by a put down.
I don’t want to walk down the street in front of you so you can compliment me on how many guys turned and looked. How disgusting you fueled your ego with the prize and demeaned my exhistance as a person.
This description now fit me, the empathic one to a T. Now that I am aware of your mind have I become one of you?
No, you have not.
See, here it is…. “Have I become one of you?” Newby 1111 asks….
And HG answers: “no you have not.”
Newby 1111 you are privileged, you got an answer. I’m glad he was able to ease your mind in that way.
It is indeed a deeply tragic and horrible to have been so invested for such a time and have so ingrained into you narc like thinking and behaviour, so much so, that people can no longer tell the difference between you and a narc. Its like those bugs that even if you pull the heads of, they can still be within your system.
The only way to survive such a journey was to become like them, and I was young, and soaked up like a sponge all their ways. I didn’t have a self, so I became whatever was needed to survive. I used their own ways against them, because I had no choice, and I had to survive somehow didn’t I? Does anyone think I wanted that?
You had to pile up and stock all that deadly stuff they threw at you and learn to put it to good use, and then throw it back to them. You had to use everything they gave you, and learn to think like them and be like them, otherwise you would not be one step ahead. Because there was nobody coming to protect or save me. Nobody. All you know is you had to survive, so that is what you did. But you do not think you are surviving then, you are just living, you don’t recognise the situation you were in. You don’t recognise who or what you are having to be like. You don’t know anything until you see and get told and learn gradually from others and therapy, that you were not meant to be treated like that…….
That was no normal…….
That was not right behaviour….. And so on…..
You gradually come to an older age of understanding and emotional maturing. And you realise…..then you realise you don’t know who you are. Because you never had a self. How do you learn to be a person????
You slowly have to learn what bad behaviour is and what good behaviour is, and what needs you should have and what ones you shouldn’t. What barriers/boundaries should and shouldn’t be there. How to express yourself, and how not to. All that you’ve been taught and learnt is bad. Its all wrong. You are wrong! Everything is wrong about you.
The thing that has given you so much pain and turmoil throughout your life, and pushed you further than you ever wanted or thought it possible for your mind to go. That has forced you to accept things that nobody should have to accept……nobody!!!The thing you were forced to love even though you felt terrified and disgusted with it. That thing you felt was not right inside somehow, but you were never allowed to say so, because your feelings DID NOT MATTER!!!
That thing that has excruciatingly kept you tortured, longing for answers and understanding, and only gives you more riddles and puzzles. That chain still tightly around your neck, that you wish, you so wish….. they would have just pulled tighter so your neck snapped, would have been so much kinder, but no…..that would have been far too easy….
………………
…………….
It helps me to know that not everyone has been so tainted, indoctrinated and abused by this kind. It helps me have hope, that even if I’m a complete and utter lost cause….. others are not.
Others can truly be free and heal….I often wonder what that must feel like to have no pain…..
Thank you for telling her HG…..
Hello Newby1111,
Your question made me curious:
Why and how do you think that now you being aware of how “your” /a narcissist functions makes you one?
As far as I know either you are a **narcissist( NPD) or not .
(**NPD determined by genetic predisposition and environmental factors during childhood i.ex.abuse and or abandonment).
You do not become a narcissist just by being exposed to the abusive behaviour of one.
However, there are instances when a person who has been exposed to an abusive situation for a sustained period of time, begins “picking up”, imitating or emulating some of the disordered behaviours of the narcissist .
This is sometimes referred to as “getting fleas” in psychology terminology. Fleas comes from the adage “Lie down with dogs and you are bound to get fleas”.
This ( picking up of behaviours) is not a trait / characteristic of the one emulating but rather a coping mechanism ( i.ex. to demonstrate their anger). It is then reversible.
This is one of the reasons why some who have been exposed to a narcissist begin to wonder and question if they are narcissists themselves recognising some behaviours that are not typical of them. But that “emulation”does not make you one.
I simply meant that I find I use the 10 rejections of intimacy towards him. I don’t spew back at him, I don’t fuel his gaslighting attempts, the goading, the provoking. I simply reject him, now that I am aware of the game. All 10 ways. I have become “them?”
You haven’t become one of “them.” You were fighting a war, without knowing the battleground. NOW you know the battle you’re fighting and using the ammo available. Other than Greaters, (HG, Holla!) “they” don’t wonder or reflect on such things. They’re hardwired not to. A substantial number of Survivors think they have become Ns after they start using the available weapons to start winning. Don’t put down those weapons. Keep swinging and keep winning. Oh… and mostly just get out! 😀
Have you ever been with someone who has intimacy issues HG? I’m just wondering how it would work….that’s all….
So the fact that my husband is sleeping in another bedroom for the past 2 weeks under the guise of “I want you to be able to rest” coupled with the fact he hasn’t approached me in 6 weeks because I had surgery on my breasts means what? Meanwhile he promises to pay for certain things and at the last minute leaves me to pay for it. Our whole marriage is I buy groceries and he reimburses me when he gets around to it. If I want something I buy it. Essentially I have free room and board and a whole lot of chores to do in his house and he gets to keep his money, his things, his everything . I am not allowed to hang my art on the walls or rearrange the furniture. Anything I do in the home requires his permission. He recently turned off the internet knowing full well that I stay connected that way. He said he could better spend the money on his cars that he is building.
Any comments are truly welcome
Annette Madeiros
Is there any way you can get out? Or plan an escape?
AM
He is controlling you. He wants to keep you bonded to him as he needs you but at the same time he is treating you as a dependent – that his house – his rules. He feels superior and he treats Your contribution as a wife as nothing. If he owns a house – then he is paying Your services in the form free lodging. He has no feelings here. All I see that in his brain the relationship is like give and take where he is keeping a record in monetary value. Where Your value is minimal and his value is skyrocketing.
You’re absolutely right. I am so sorry I ever met this individual, let alone married him.
HG is the expert, but I would guess he’s been embedding a new source during the past 6 weeks.
That is also my guess J.
Annette Madeiros,
He is very selfish and sounds domineering. He is controlling you and restricting what you do. He is even isolating you by not allowing you to use the internet.
Do you have a job and earn your own money? I think this would help you to be both more financially independent and also to have other friends and acquaintances.
Your situation does not sound healthy to me at all. I feel as though the longer it goes on, the more controlling he will get and the more you will be walking on eggshells.
It sounds drastic, but I would seriously consider ending the relationship before other things occur that may bind you even closer and make it harder to leave in the long run. Best wishes to you.
Awe, that is so cute on #8. We don’t get to look, anymore. Like a shy, little boy. And, you wear your cute pajamas to bed, now. So adorable! I would tuck you in and make sure you were all comfy and cozy. You, Boo Boo Bear, you! 🐻
Check, check check… I have experienced all of them. The weirdest thing was that when I touched him intimately , he would giggle like a kid. That was really unsettling and made me feel sexually inadequate.