Ice Cold With Alex
I had a girlfriend called Alex. She was a vivacious creature who was very much into her gymnastics and I cultivated an interest in this after seeing her various tweets about attending competitions and her posts on Instagram. She was at least ten years younger than me and she had a delightful naivety about her. Although she was far from old, indeed she was very much in her youth, she was approaching the upper age limit for those who could be regarded as competitive in gymnastics. Similar to competitive swimming, the shelf-life of a female gymnast is not long.
Initially, I would drive her all around the country to the various competitions which she took part in. She was very good and often found herself amongst the medals. The rigorous routines began to have an effect on her body and on return to home it was often necessary for her to apply ice packs to reduce the swelling she suffered about her knees and ankles. Once I tired of her bubbly persona and incessant chatter about straddle press handstands,pike press to handstand from front stand and the Arabian doubles, I would prior to her competition remove any ice we had in the house. On return she would express her dismay at the lack of ice. I would volunteer to go and find some for her from the supermarket as she rested. I would go to the pub instead or go and visit Mary who was attracting my attentions around this time.
I would return empty-handed resulting in Alex not recovering quick enough and thereafter having to pull out of competitions. She would swear that she had purchase some ice only the day before but I would point out that she could not have done since we had none. That was a fact and with a confused look she would eventually accept the force of what I was saying. Unfortunately for her, she insisted on attending a competition when not fully recovered and ended up badly injuring her right knee. Her convalescence was such that she felt her confidence dry up and she was most reluctant to rejoin the competition. This pleased me as it meant my weekends were no longer being interrupted and as she was on crutches for a time it meant I was free to come and go and there was little she could do about it, being largely housebound. In order to show some semblance of caring for her, I would cook the evening meal for her on condition she fixed the drinks for us both. It was then I decided I would always drink Absolut vodka. On the rocks.
233 thoughts on “Ice Cold With Alex”
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Windstorm, though this is an older comment of yours, I completely support your points on people who doubt their own judgement. I think this notion is truly important with regards to the discussion about Alex’s behaviour.
I came to learn that many of those who grow up in abusive environments learn, over the years and decades of their childhood, teenage and even adult years, to normalize those types of behaviours – be it emotional blackmail, gaslighting or any other type of overt or covert abuse. I think that effect is even more prevalent with sustained covert types of abuse that ‘fly under the radar’ but silently and steadily chip away at one’s confidence and self-assertiveness. When victims of any form of abuse experience intermittent positive reinforcement that immediately follows horrendous incidents of abuse, by receiving those mixed and contraditory signals by an intimate partner or caregiver, they inevitably begin to doubt their own perception. Walking on eggshells, constantly predicting and reacting to what they are experiencing becomes their ‘normal’, a learned and therefore automatic response and a matter of survival in surroundings that don’t offer stability or security, hence that is why those behaviours feel so familiar and are constantly rationalized and denied. Victims are trapped in fear, as you have written, and thus trapped in their learned behaviours that allowed them to adapt to their environmment for so long. It is truly a long way to realize the truth and get beyond that fear.
Saskia, I know you were not addressing me, but you are exactly on point! You described it beautifully. This becomes your normal and if you have never learned different, when you experience different, it doesn’t make sense. My example would be my husband, a normal. Towards the beginning of the relationship we had a huge breakdown. He didn’t try to control me, in any part of my life. Internally I processed that as he didn’t love me. Love = control. For him, he didn’t control me because he loved me. In his mind he was showing me respect. Respect for my abilities to be in the world as a compentant person. I thought he didn’t care. I took a ton of work to get through that and at times I still bounce back into that mentality. Its awful!
IdaNoe, thank you for your kind comment. Regardless of who I initially address, any comment, thought or sharing of experience on what I have written is welcome. I understand and relate to what you have written about love vs control with regards to your relationship. When we have been taught that love equals pain and control, it is really hard to get past that notion and adopt a ‘healthier’ attitude. I had similar feelings in my longer-term relationship of several years. He is a very stable, calm and self-assertive person in general. Our relationship lacked the dizzying thrill and drama that I was used to due to my usual choice of (emotionally) unavailable men, thus I processed the ‘down to earth’ state of our relationship as evidence for a lack of genuine feelings, of true interest and care. His calm and stable presence in my life did not feel familiar at that time, therefore I could not truly accept what he was offering me.
I found it generally helpful to try to express those feelings and to openly share my thoughts (with my partner) even if that felt very uncomfortable in the beginning. In my view it is only natural to ‘bounce back’ at times – healing and adopting healthier ways of coping seems like a long-winded process of taking one step at a time or more often than not, taking one step forward and then again, one or two steps back when the general direction is forward.
When I read am article about someone’s abuse, I do respond with “Why didn’t s/he allow that?” “Why didn’t s/he leave?” “Why did they not see the cheating?” “Why did you not stand up for yourself?” When people post their own stories, I don’t ask these questions. In this case, we even have the narcissist admitting what he did. That makes it easier for us to see what happened. Alex did not have that benefit. In addition, she was in the middle of abuse. I know how powerful that can be.
That is not to say that I don’t encourage others to see the truth and to understand what happened. The two are not mutually exclusive. They did not ask for someone to do malicious things to them.
To me it is akin to asking a rape victim, “Why didn’t you see what was happening?” “Why didn’t you leave?” “Why didn’t you stand up for yourself?” It is damaging to the victim, who already feels shame, regret and often feels dumb. This can make them feel at fault and reluctant to come forward, like they deserved or volunteered for abuse for not stopping it. It is not helpful to their healing process.
Emotional abuse and manipulation is even harder to detect. Instead asking, “Why didn’t you leave, stop it, fight back?” I write, “I am very sorry it happened. What they did to you was wrong. And I am glad you had the strength to get out. How can I help?” Should we try to protect ourselves?…absolutely. Should we learn, grow and support each other?…absolutely. Should we say someone volunteers for abuse by not leaving?…Absolutely not.
I encourage you all to fight. I am glad to be amongst the fighters. Even those being abused are fighting. They are fighting with pain, with confusion, with shame, with their own minds. I hope and pray they get free.
I am very happy to be here and have received much encouragement and support hearing everyone’s stories and opinions. Where there is struggle, there is growth. Thank you.
❤Valk
Wisernow
Responding here as there was no option to under you Oct 18 reply.
I understand. The subject itself is highly emotionally charged and some articles fan those flames more than others. Sometimes they seem like a litmus test for where we are emotionally and of course that varies from person to person. There is no reason for you (or anyone) to hold back their opinion. They are all valid and may resonate with some but not others. They do not have to be accepted but they should all be heard. I’m glad you are experiencing less stress and hope you are having a better week.
NA
NarcAngel,
Thank you for your reply and understanding. I’m glad you see it that way. I agree that people should be free to express themselves (within moderation) and they should be heard. How others respond is a test and example of the responders’ own emotional and logical thinking. I can see this more clearly now.
This week has been better, thank you. I hope you’re having a good week too.
This is why we should try our best to avoid relationships with narcissists. It’s not about being a team. It is and will always be about them.
It’s crazy that we argue amongst ourselves when we are in agreement. We all feel bad for Alex, we all know what HG did was cruel, we all have compassion for her as a victim and we all know that she needs to take action to get out of the situation. Yet we create arguments that one has too much empathy and another doesn’t have enough.
This story did exactly what it was intended to do. Trigger emotion. Brilliant work in my opinion.
DebbieWolf
Did not mean to hit send yet. At this time in my healing I am trying to use more logic then emotion. So to blame it all on the narcissist, especially in this article it is still hard for me to do. I have never come on here and yelled at anyone at anytime. That is not my nature and never has been. I hope you continue in your healing process and at some point can find peace inside of you once again.
FM1T
Thank you for replying..I do hope you too will find inner peace..damn bloody emotions.. I wouldn’t change being an empath but sometimes it’s nice to have days off!! I am sorry if I misunderstood anything with my emotions running high. I really think the article was kind of like the last straw even though it isn’t the worst of any narcissistic act.
I think it just hit a nerve.
Be well FM1T xx
This post is a reminder: HG is evil. He may be giving people who read him something. But never think that, because you are getting something from him, you should trust him. That would be wildly foolish.
No one here knows Alex. That includes HG, since narcs can never truly know anyone. Narcs also have distorted memories, and absolutely no compunction about lying. And narcs love smearing people. What’s most important to take away from this post, I think, is that HG is the kind of person who would enjoy doing this to someone.
“Thanks for the warning, I will look out for that swinging pendulum though I suspect it may have got stuck in the asteroid belt.”
You are welcome. It is not a warning though. It is an observation. Asteroids are rocky, airless worlds orbiting the Sun. Nice metaphor! Most asteroids are found in the doughnut shaped belt between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter. Asteroids are too small to be called planets. More metaphors! Tens of thousands of them. They can be pulled out of their solar orbit by the gravitational pull of a planet. Their orbit would then be drawn to that planet instead of orbiting the Sun. Maybe that is what happened to you. You got pulled out here and you actually belong out there to bash around with “your kind” instead of bashing dangerously into humans.
Research says “One day they will interact again in a big way with our planet. Perhaps we will discover incoming asteroids and be able to divert their orbit before disaster strikes. We damn sure will want to be ready when that day comes. Anything less would be a reckless misuse of the knowledge our species has worked so hard to gain.” Nice parable.
In the end I am feeling this is a work of fiction. If I bought ice and then it poofed I would not just accept that. I would go get more ice. I have had a job requiring great physical stamina. In order to do it the next and the next day I would take Epsom salt baths. If someone stole my salts, or said they would go out and get some and came back empty handed I would not go with out Epsom salts. I would go out and get them and hide them so no one could steal them. This Alex was a talented gymnast. I doubt she would be stupid enough to go without ice if that is what she needed. I am going with a faulty plot line.
I think the awful truth of this situation is that Alex entered the relationship already this way. She was pre-programmed. At some point in her life, she learned that to be loved, she needed to ignore her own needs, push through her body’s pain signals, and just be quiet and take what was offered. HG didn’t make her this way. He was an opportunist who took advantage of it.
The harsh truth of the matter is that HG wasn’t going to change. Who is at fault in the situation becomes irrelevant at some point; the person with the power to change this situation was Alex. That she did not is not an indication of weakness or a failure on her part. She was just made to feel like she had no power, or to feel ashamed for taking hold of the power in a relationship. But if anything in this dynamic were to change, it would be because Alex realized she had the power to demand her needs be met or leave. Empowering the victim is the only path to change.
I was also programmed to ignore my needs. When I had a narc boyfriend, I once recall being so afraid to ask him for anything that I once avoided for hours asking him to move a wet glass off an antique table of mine for fear he would explode at me and leave if I did. It’s completely ridiculous, but when you learn that love is based on your passivity, this is how you behave. But again, the narc isn’t going to change, so if you’re going to get out, it’s you who has to change. That’s not victim blaming. that’s fact.
Michelle
Great points: Fault is irrelevant. The only hope for change lies with the empath. Fact.
Michelle, we are here to empower each other and learn. I definitely agree with you.
I disagree with “who is at fault in the situation becomes irrelevant at some point”. I do think it is important for victims not to blame themselves. I do feel it is victim blaming when people say that someone volunteers for abuse by not realizing what is happening. You are not complicit in abuse by staying. That is the nature of the abuse.
I am very sorry for your boyfriend’s treatment of you. I understand the need not to upset them too. I went back and forth between trying to be loving and standing up for myself. Nothing worked. I hope you are doing better. We are here to grow and educate ourselves, but you did not cause the abuse.
When I say who is at fault is irrelevant, I mean that in regard to the fact that the narcissist will never be held accountable, never change, and never apologize. Of course it is important for the victim to know that s/he is not to blame. I’m just pointing out that a sense of justice and desire for vindication get you nowhere; people who do not understand the nature of narcissists hold out for these things. In one situation involving a friend of mine who was abused, I eventually concluded that the “fault” lay with his mother. I had to accept that there was no undoing that and that, although he was personally accountable for his actions, he was also acting out a script that had been written for him long before we met.
I only lasted 14 weeks with that boyfriend, but I ended up in therapy for CPTSD after several malign hoovers. Though I hope I never lay eyes on him again, meeting him resulted in a lot of growth for me.
HG
Re: The Alex article
Do you believe that the different classifications of empath may account for the different responses/tolerances on this thread?
Yes.
HG
Thank you for your reply. I thought you might see the different empath classes as being a factor in the types of responses/tolerances in this thread. A lot of emotional thinking. I wonder how many others have identified this might be the case.
NarcAngel
I hadn’t considered until you mentioned it that we would all respond according to the type of empath we are. It does make sense, though. That’s what people tend to do – respond according to their type. As Spock would say, “It’s only logical.”
That’s what makes sharing ideas and opinions on a blog like this so helpful. It exposes us to other thinking and other viewpoints that we might never have considered.
Good question, NA. While I haven’t given an opinion here, my reaction when I first read it was closer to yours than to most of the others. I am feeling like I don’t understand them – just as I am (was) pissed off at IPPS for unleashing her husband on unsuspecting women because she so refuses to see, I wonder why Alex just passively accepted the status quo.
But not only was Alex much younger and less experienced than HG, I also remember how I struggled even if I am at base an SE (tho I am not sure about that). My reaction today (or yesterday – whenever I first read this) might be quite different than it would have been when I was at my most unbalanced, with my ET completely out of control and triggers everywhere. I might have had more empathy for Alex six months ago. I don’t know but it is interesting to think about.
In any case, I am more curious about HG’s thinking behind this than I am in Alex herself.
My response is different than it would have been in the past. Perhaps I have developed more of a firm resolve to not allow emotional thinking to overtake me.
I can see myself as having reacted as Debbie and I fully understand her reaction. I view HG as a healer and I have felt reassured and healed by his words yet this story unsettled me. The ending especially, is a solid punch to the gut.
A solid reminder to not forget what HG is, which I have been guilty of brushing aside myself, in some moments.
This also takes me back to when I had a leg injury of my own–once a stress fracture and another a sprained ankle and not being able to walk is both humiliating and excruciating. Literally one feels like a helpless child.
I find HG’s actions malicious and what should be beneath him but I am not about to unleash negative fuel and lecture a grown man on how to behave. My naive part wishes he could be a sociopath (because he can’t help that part) but not do sociopath things (he can help that).
Hello I am subscribed to this comment and I can see there are over 100 comments…
I have only received alerts for 77 so if I have missed anybody I apologise ….
From what I have been able to see manually outside of the alerts I have been able to respond to about 6 or 7 people and I have done so.
Thank you to all.xx
This sounds more towards the beginning of the relationship. Lots of gaslighting and the negative affects she was starting to experience as a result of boredom and probably jealousy over her accomplishments. Even tho she was a girlfriend that attention was overshadowing yours which would grow old very fast. Youd also grow bored of her contentment of having you there drivng her to these competitions you needed to step it up a notch.
This is a great example of not only lack of empathy but calculation. You wanted her to fail. Fail so that attention would no longer be on her and you could control the situation but in the process it wouldve eventually lead to more boredom over her complaining and crying. Narcissists dont have good bedside manners.
Chihuahuamum, Very good points!
This one has really hit the nerve, with all of us, it seems. Maybe because it shows so blatantly the sadistic streak and capability of a self-aware narcissist. Alex was very young, as a gymnastic very likely been told all her life not to question her coach/parents, not to whine. They take care of you. You can take a little pain, that’s not a big deal. At first the ice was there, then sometimes it wasn’t. Put the ice in cold water and then slowly, slowly start heating up.
I have a lot of shame for staying in my relationship as long as I did. I don’t even dare to tell you now. I blame and shame myself a lot. I used to blame myself for not being good enough, now I’ve blamed myself for not being strong enough to leave earlier. But until last Christmas I honestly thought that he operated with a rationale of a “normal” person, no matter how “tormented” or frustrating he was.
Mr Tudor is confusing, because in this blog he is the oppression and the resistance wrapped in one. I hope you don’t mind the comparison, but remember the scene in Schindler’s list where Oscar Schindler and Amon Goeth are talking about power? Goeth says that control is power, the ability to kill arbitrarily, to punish those that break his rules is power. O.S. tries to plant a seed in Goeth’s mind and says to him, “That is not power. Power is when we have every justification to kill, and we don’t.”
Later, Goeth tries to apply this in the camp when he’s annoyed with a prisoner, a young boy. He says to him, “I pardon you” and the boy leaves. Goeth looks at himself in the mirror, touches his image and says to himself, “I pardon you”. Then he goes to the balcony and shoots the boy.
FM1T
In addition to my comment to you… I would like to add that not everybody has read every single word on the blog or every single article.
everybody is different and they read differently and they’re up to different points not only in their reading but in their recovery and in their understanding.
if there are people who are surprised then so be it, isn’t that normal and natural and perfectly human?
You put exclamation marks after things you’ve said like everybody should be told off because those who may have been surprised shouldn’t have been if so.
Just because you are not surprised doesn’t mean that other people are not.
I reiterate I was not surprised but I was upset about it.
I am not going to argue about this.
This blog is about the articles and commenting on them and sharing reactions and experiences and asking HG the questions.
I do not hold with endless debate between individuals which go off at a tangent and become agitating and or never-ending and so will not do that.
However I feel the points I have made are valid and do respond to what your comments about HG being the only one here who was being honest from the start were….
and regarding the subject of surprise at his actions.
DebbieWolf
Once again you have taken what I had written personally. I have always used exclamation points! I am also a very emotional person with high anxiety. I have written many times about the people on the blog healing and depending where they are in that healing they are going to respond I differently to what they have read.
HG,
Did you plan this out with the end result in mind because competing was taking up too much of Alex’s time, she was getting attention, and she wasn’t giving you enough fuel as a result? (Not to mention that you had to do things for her – drive her around, tend to her injuries).
Or was it more that each time she needed something, you’d sabotage it just because she needed it?
To my mind the first is cruel but the second is just childish.
I’m sitting here observing the intense emotional reactions by commenters (which are all more than understandable). I won’t give my thoughts or feelings on this matter but not for the reasons some people will assume.
Emotional……
Reactions……
Both give power to the narcissist. Remember how to take your power back. Once you know what you are dealing with do your best not to react and try not to get emotional. Turn the logic on and assess. Put the emotion in a box or disguise it. I know it’s easier said than done. Walk away if you have to. I encourage walking away and leaving.
There’s no point in talking.
There’s no point in debating or trying to get the narcissist to see whatever you want them to see. Even if they do – it doesn’t matter – they don’t care. You can’t make someone care. He can’t feel it. He can only feel it if it impacts him directly. Behavior will only change if he benefits. This is simple.
Save your breath. Save your emotional energy.
I support self-expression don’t get me wrong but I always think of what I’m hoping to accomplish. I wouldn’t bother expressing my feelings directly to someone who won’t hear them, care about them or understand them. That is me though. As long as you realize you will not change his mind – rock out. As long as you realize that your emotional words feed and fuel the fire and you don’t care – cool…continue. As for me…
I know when there is nothing to gain.
I know when it’s pointless.
I know when not to bother.
I know when to walk away.
Know when to bother. Don’t waste time emotionally expressing something to people who don’t care. Express it to those who understand and care.
Apply what you’ve learned.
Take your power back. Always remember you can’t control other people but you can control how you react to a situation.
Harleen
💝 Thank you xx.
🤐🛡️
Dr Q
That is good advice. I do think, though, that when we come across something that horrifies us, we should always do something, even if all we do is express that horror to one another. In my opinion that is what many comments have been doing. Sharing the horror in order to better understand it. Making our own opinions known.
I believe that is important for society. Staying quiet in the face of the horrific allows horrible things to continue. As for changing a narcs behavior, as you said he will only change if he perceives that it benefits him. But the reaction of people around him can sometimes show an intelligent narc that his interest is better served by altering his behavior. Yes the need for fuel is always the most imperative, but how a smart narc gets this fuel is under his own control.
I agree with what you say Windstorm.
I agree it’s important for society to say something when what we see horrifies or appalls us. When people think they need to hold back because of what others may think or because their reactions may have bad consequences for their own self and they don’t want to rock the boat, it can result in the abusive behaviour being normalised or seen as not that bad, when it actually is.
This article has made me see things from so many aspects and it’s very difficult to rationalise all these different perspectives in order to settle on one particular opinion or viewpoint.
The “visceral” reaction many have had to the abusive and deceptive way that Alex was treated serves a purpose I believe. Regardless of whether or not it gives fuel to HG, the strong reactions came about because perhaps we are supposed to have a strong emotional reaction to seeing abuse. It shouldn’t be intellectualised or rationalised away. For our own collective protection and overall social progress, it serves human society to be appalled by such abuse rather than to contemplate it in an intellectual way.
There is good and bad in everything. Maybe this is how our emotions serve us in a positive way.
I have also considered my reaction of calling HG a “bastard”. After thinking about this for a day or two, I can now see that I probably should have kept it to myself because it was rude and not very helpful to the way I am perceived here. Also, it gave HG fuel.
Then I think, well, ok it gave him fuel. So what? He want’s fuel, and he got some fuel. Big deal.
On a larger scale, being called that in an accusing and open way also serves to tell him decisively how people perceive his actions towards his girlfriend, which may make him question and reflect on his own behaviour. It may also give others an example of how he is seen which would broaden their perspectives too. It can all be seen as both good AND bad.
WiserNow
I don’t think you were rude; we all have emotional thinking and, if I recall correctly, I called HG an evil motherfucker once. The fuel is very low potency so it isn’t a big deal, just a dollop (in writing, from a tertiary source).
WS, I like what you wrote BTW.
NA
I didn’t think you were victim blaming.
Practicing my cognitive narcissism:
“which may make him question and reflect on his own behaviour.”
The narcissist isn’t wired to question or reflect on his behavior because s(he) is only wired to put her/his needs first, without care or concern. It is all about the fuel. The cost is borne by others, not the narcissist.
K
Really smart, aware narcs do reflect on their behavior. If they realize it is not benefiting them or that different behavior would better benefit them, then they may change their behavior. That is why I tell my Pretzel MnM when I believe different, less abusive behavior would be in his best interest. It may not affect his behavior, but sometimes it does. At least it causes him to think about it. And it makes me feel better than if I had remained silent.
Now as to midrangers, they are not so reflective, but they make more stupid mistakes. I have often found that pointing out flaws in their reasoning or helping them understand other people’s perspectives can help them choose to alter their behavior. This can benefit them and the people with whom they’re interacting.
WS
I agree that Greaters can reflect on their behaviour but they don’t give a rat’s ass about the damage they cause as long as they get fuel. They just learn to become more efficient.
I have never had any luck trying to reason with a mid or a lesser. That is why I always thought everyone around me was so dumb, now I realize they were all narcissists and they just wanted fuel. What a waste of energy.
K
True all narcs just want fuel. But sometimes becoming more efficient creates less damage to their fuel sources.
I only try to reason with a MR if they are unsatisfied in the response of someone else. When they’re open to trying a different strategy. I’ve never tried to reason with a lesser. I try not to interact with them at all.
Windstorm – reasoning with a lesser…. I dont think it can be done. The ones I have known weren’t able to reason or logic well. It’s like HG described . You have to think of them like cats. I love cats. I live with cats, but cats have their own set of rules. “The cat rules” They won’t do something because you ask or want it. Generally the fact that you want it, means they probably won’t do it just because you want it. Like getting into the carrier to go to the Vet. So you have to convince them that it was their idea and they get something positive out of it. Like um, putting treats in the carrier and leaving the door open. Lessers are like that. Convince them it’s their idea and give them a positive reward. I worked with a guy like this. Good at what he did but wouldn’t comply. The company needed him to do the jobs, he was very capable, but didn’t like being told what to do. I’d just stroke his ego and tell him about the overtime pay and he’d do most any job I ask of him.
IdaNoe and Windstorm
Reasoning with a lessor….I call that aggressive negotiations. Sometimes they learn if it hurts don’t repeat. Like my husband I hit him between the eyes with a cannon shell (thought I killed him) after he threw an object at me, he never threw another thing at me.
It takes a lot to push me to that point thou.
Now I just prefer them to stay their distance and avoid all contact.
🤣 Twilight,
Oh gawd I’m laughing so hard I almost peed! Do I even want to know why you have a cannon shell? Oh please tell me that story!
On that note, years ago a lesser boyfriend lived with me. He was a bodybuilder. We fought constantly. One intense night, I hit him in the back of the head with a frying pan. He just turned around, took the frying pan and set it on the counter. Then very calmly said watch this. He hit it with both fists and it turned inside out. I never hit him with a skillet again!
IdaNoe
Long story short. He was being a jackass, apparently he woke up on the wrong side of the bed. He threw a glass object at me and missed by an inched, as it exploded against the door (I was exiting the bedroom) I stepped back inside grab a cannon shell off his dresser full of quarters and hit him right between his eyes. I actually thought I killed him, he didn’t move a muscle. I hit him so hard it hit him then hit the wall next to him leaving a 1/4 indention in the wall. He never threw another object in my direction again.
i can say depending on the type of skillet, there is no way I could hide whatever I would be thinking. My facial expressions rat me out. It would either be damn that is impressive or what a joke.
Cast iron skillets, can never go wrong with one of them. Indestructible and versatile.
I am glad for you he took it out on the pan and not you.
Twilight,
It was a weird situation with my lesser. Yes he abused me, but he was predictable in his abuse (and it was far less than what I was ensuring at my mothers hands). He also saved me. My mother had me so far down the rabbit hole, I was lost. I was suicidal. He’s the only one who noticed or care. He said, ” I know what you’re doing and I’m not going to let you.” He changed my life. He taught me so many things, things I survive by now 20 years later. He taught me to survive, to be resistant and to keep fighting no matter what . I believe I would have died without him.
Twilight ,
oh and, the skillet was a cheap one, we were very poor. But he was strong! 5’9″ 200lbs. Saw him lay back on an incline bench with a 120lbs barbell in each hand and rep it out. He was scary strong.
Idanoe
Oh mannnn!!! Did you have to use cats? I dont want to go around mentally shooting cats and watching them bleed out like I do Lessers.
NA, ohhhh dont say that! Cats are good people! (Rats too!)
Windstorm,
Re: Midrangers – I can tell you from my experience with my Matrinarc that telling them about their bad behavior or incorrect actions only makes them go stealth mode. Ok it did mine! She went completely covert. Played up the facade x10 and began a slow erosion campaign using the information I had given her to unravel me. My only ONLY saving grace was putting the phone on speaker and allowing hubby to hear her for himself. He’s a cop and with everything he has seen in his career, he was still dumbstruck. He just looked at me and couldn’t speak. Until then, he thought it was me just being an angry person. So please please be careful if you do this, it can blow up in your face.
IdaNoe
Thank you for your warning. I have never pointed out a narcs stupid mistakes in dealing with myself. That would probably just trigger fury or some negative, manipulative response.
What I meant with midrangers is many times I’ve had one be complaining about someone else who wasn’t behaving like they wanted. Often the MR was making this worse by their behavior and not realizing. By pointing out how the other person probably felt, they could adjust their behavior to be more successful and less abusive. This has never worked in intimate relationships, but seems more successful in business dealings and more impersonal interactions. It seems to be more successful when the narc is aware things aren’t working out like they want, but doesn’t know how to fix it.
With my Pretzel MnM, I’m not so careful. He is neither violent nor vindictive, and our relationship has spanned 45 years. I don’t live with him and he knows that I am trying to be helpful. We know each other well enough, that I can see and back off if I’m triggering his fury and he tolerates my “stupidity” since he knows it’s unchangeable. Lol!
Thanks K, for your comment, and for pointing out your own colourful description of HG in the past, lol.
Isn’t it funny that empaths, the relatively well-meaning parties, are the ones pondering whether or not we said or did something wrong and whether or not this is likely to affect the narcissist or not, while they go about their nasty behaviour without a second thought and then feel entitled to deflect blame.
I like your attitude K. You are decisively aware of what the narcissist is, and you don’t question yourself about how you respond to them. Well done. I would like to adopt more of your thinking.
You are welcome WiserNow
Indeed, it was a colorful description and he posted it and I was still allowed to stay on narcsite.
You are absolutely correct. Empaths are very well meaning and that is one of the many reasons we attract narcissists. We are hardwired for introspection and we reflect on our behaviour and how it impacts others, whereas the narcissist never sees her/himself as being wrong, won’t take responsibility/own it and can only engage in finger-pointing.
Thank you for your kind words WiserNow. Since finding narcsite, I have shifted my attitude and emotional thinking quite a bit. Keep reading so you increase your understanding and allow yourself to see the dynamic form the perspective of the narcissist. Through his eyes you will find freedom.
Thank you for your comment and advice K.
You’re absolutely correct too. Knowledge and awareness are the key to freedom from this psychological torture.
Thank you for your comments K and all the best to you. Your validation and support means a lot to me. It has helped me greatly (and the same with HG and many other commenters on narcsite). I wish you well on your continued awareness and strength in dealing with all of this.
My pleasure WiserNow
You, all the other people on narcsite and HG have helped me through my NPD ordeal and, for that, I will be forever grateful.
WiserNow
I agree entirely.
I kind of agree with NarcAngel on this one. At some point, Alex must have realised that her need for ice was not going to be met by HG. She could have made alternative arrangements. This isn’t victim blaming, just pointing out that the narcissistic abuse dynamic is a dance for two, and our behaviour does contribute to the performance.
The problem, from my experience, is that we absolutely don’t expect someone who claims to love us to do something so malicious. If it were me, I’d see his actions as demonstrating disapproval at my whinging for ice. I’d feel like I was disappointing him and making a fuss over nothing, and to try and regain his approval I would shut up. If it made him happy – or stopped making him unhappy – I would tolerate the pain, do too much on the bad leg and make the injury worse.
This is why I should stay away from narcissists!
H.G’s articles can be like a bucket of ice water. I call him my narc guru, I have massive respect for his work and I sometimes drift off listening to his voice on the no limits podcasts. I am attracted to narcs, and he is king narc. It’s easy to fall into fantasizing about “saving” him from his demons. Then I read something like this and realise he can’t be, doesn’t want to be, fixed with the love of the right person. I think it is good to be reminded of his cruelty, that his fury is real and vicious and, as much as he helps those of us who read his work, he destroys people in his real life and enjoys the process of making them suffer.
Apologies, H.G.
I understand the point in Alex’s story but I think this is a good example of the fact that we have to take responsibility for our part of the abuse as well. My first thought was “why didn’t she get more ice?” Call your mom, coach, brothers, sisters, friends. Get ice! Instead I’m sure she sat there in confusion wondering why you got rid of the ice. Being the victim is one thing but wallowing in the victim pool is on us.
Hi mercy…i do wonder sometimes if these stories are altered for educationsl purposes. Its possible she did try and get ice or did. Hard to say.
If she didnt i find that hard to believe. Being in pain and knowing you have to compete will usually drive most to get their ice themselves even. Im sure her competing was of equal or close to importance as her relationship. Many who compete can be highly narcissistic themselves. Not all but a large majority. Ive seen it firsthand.
Chihuahuamum
I agree. HG is a brilliant writer. I believe we all would agree on this. It is to be expected that he takes poetic license in his writing. Also we need to remember that he is writing from his perspective. What he thought about the situation. This may not have been what she thought or how she perceived things.
Chi, Yes I do believe the stories are for educational purposes. I also believe that we apply them to ourselves in different ways according to where we are in relation to the narcissist.
Your name always makes me hungry for chimichangas 😜
Lol mercy 😄
Hi windstorm…so true! These are coming from Hg’s perspectives. Hes a greater so hes aware of his np but hes an elite so hes even more aware and uses it to educate. I do take what i read and apply it to help me understand npd and maneuver around and within it.
Mercy, I would not compare someone’s actions during an abusive relationship as wallowing in the victim pool.
That is what makes it hard for people to come forward. That others blame them for what is happening to them. If a wife or husband stays thinking her/his partner will change are they wallowing? If they get physically hit are you going to go to them and say “stop wallowing?” If they have been emotionally and psychologically abused, are you going to think it is their fault, the abuse?
We should support them. Let them know that the abuse was the result of actions of the abuser. We can educate and console them. Tell them they deserve better, build them up, do not tear them down.
Valkyrie you can’t take 3 words out of a whole statement and decide that Im blaming the victim. That is not the case at all. Do you really think that I, being an empath and a victim as well, would imply that it’s the wife’s fault that her husband hits her or it’s her fault she is psychologically abused? No, I wouldn’t. You are right, they need (we all need) support, education, compassion and someone to help build them up. But all of those things will do no good if the victim doesn’t say “enough!”. They have to make a decision to help themselves. They have to (we have to) listen to the education and support. Nobody can save the victim until the victim chooses to save themselves.
I have 1 person in my entire life besides those on this site that knows my story. I dont confide in her much anymore but if I need her she’s there for me. She’s the one that told me I was abused. She doesn’t understand narcissism but she understands I need her. So she just listens, she’s my person. Do you know why I stopped confiding in her? Because she was trying harder to save me than I was. I was ashamed that I kept going back but her solid support never wavered. My wish is that every victim had a person like her in their life.
Mercy, I am very glad that you had your person and I am glad you got out. I am happy you are here and recovering.
I didn’t agree with your statements, not just three words…
“I understand the point in Alex’s story but I think this is a good example of the fact that we have to take responsibility for our part of the abuse as well.”
I don’t think victims are to blame for abuse. They didn’t ask to be abused. I don’t think they “took part” in the abuse.
“My first thought was ‘why didn’t she get more ice?’ Call your mom, coach, brothers, sisters, friends. Get ice! Instead I’m sure she sat there in confusion wondering why you got rid of the ice.”
We all see more clearly now what happened to us. But we allowed things never would have thought we would have allowed. Obviously she should have gotten ice the second time. I don’t think anyone here will argue the obvious (now). The point is that “now” it is clear to us. It’s easy to armchair quarterback someone’s situation. How many things do we look back on and think wow, why didn’t I do that? Because you were being abused. I don’t know about you, but I allowed some things I want to yell back at myself for. It’s like watching a horror movie. “Don’t go in the woods!” “Don’t go upstairs to check out the mysterious noise!” “Get out of the house!” “Don’t believe his lies!” “He is trying to manipulate you!”
“Being the victim is one thing but wallowing in the victim pool is on us.”
I do not believe the abuse is our fault and I in no way think abused women/men are wallowing in the victim pool by staying. I think they are abuse victims.
I hope we all learn the truth and see clearly what happened to us. I hope abuse victims find the courage to get out of their situations. I am glad you did.
Valkyrie,
I acknowledge what you are saying and I think they are all very valid points. I must clarify that I agree with you. Once again my statement does not put blame on Alex. “We have to take responsibility for our part of the abuse as well” this is directed to us, the readers of this site. The ones taking responsibility of ourselves. The ones being educated, coming to terms with the abuse, what is missing in our lives that we are trying to gain from the abuser? Are we learning about ourselves and why we stayed? Are we seeking help? Are we looking at our childhood and past relationships? Are we now, the ones that have escaped, taking responsibility so that we are never in this type of relationship again? Are we building our defenses? This is what I mean about responsibility. In my situation it I live on the edge of giving into the abuse or being responsible. I have been educated, I see clearly where before it was manipulation, the spell, the haze. I take responsibility from this point on. If I go back, I go back fully aware that I WILL be abused again. That is the responsibility I speak of.
My statement is a reminder that those of us that are aware must continue to gain knowledge and strength. We must take responsibility.
Valkyrie
Im sorry that this has upset you (and others) to the degree that it has. I don’t see people as actually blaming the victim, but as more of a discussion on navigating the murky waters of if/where there is recognition and/or denial on the part of the victim regarding the abuse. Not blame.
NA,
I can only speak for myself but in my mother and father I saw pages full of crappy behavior. I just thought that’s what parents were like, everyone’s parents. Then as I got older, I realized that many things were wrong or unfair, but I was surrounded by flying monkeys who made excuses for the bad behavior. It took being close with someone normal and allowing him to see the behavior, to finally understand that all people weren’t like my parents. I was so rooted in keeping up their facade that I accepted they were good and I was bad. Undoing that much training completely upends your view of the world. But I agree that I have to take personal responsibility for my part, even when I knew it was lies. I still don’t understand why I supported them, when I knew they lied to me and about me. Someday, I’d really like to be able to understand why I did that.
IdaNoe
Re
Why you supported them still.
In my opinion after years of this and being brought up in it.. I will use an analogy..because it was like a big weight like a big heavy block and you were laid flat underneath it. You knew something wasn’t right as you struggled. Then you definitely knew. But the weight pinned you.
and it took a great deal of effort to wiggle and wriggle out from under. all the while the memory and the imprint of being pinned down remains.
You were imprinted and you were pinned down mentally.
You still supported them even when you knew because it was perfectly normal that you did that.
Your reactions were normal.
There is nothing wrong with your reaction to it whatsoever.
Something I sometimes personally forget is that we react most of the time normally ( if I can coin a phrase) as everybody’s reactions are different I accept that, but we react to abnormal things in understandable ways.
Perhaps the word understandable works better than the word normal what is normal after all..
I guess the key is knowing we are not the bad guy for reacting to abuse.
And I do not care what perspective is what.. abuse is still abuse.
I think accepting that how we react is perfectly understandable in unpredictable and adverse circumstances is the key to taking your power back.
Accept that you are understandable.
Very much so IdaNoe. Believe in ‘You’.
You do not owe yourself an explanation as if to right some supposed wrong you did to yourself as a person. You didn’t do anything wrong. They did.
The imprint will always be with you but it will not be pinning you down with the knowledge you are continuing to gain.
Those one-sided scales in their favour ..continue tip tip tipping over to your side even more as you accept that your reaction was so understandable and perfectly *normal* under the circumstances.xx
🐾
DebbieWolf Thank you
I’ve been thinking long and hard about this. I still don’t have a complete answer. I know it’s wrapped in a big ball of fear. So I’m not sure it is “normal “. A normal fear can be justified, understood. This I don’t unerstand. It makes no rational sense. I am afraid of her. She’s an old woman in a nursing home. I physically could break her in two. I haven’t seen her in two years, haven’t spoken in almost that long, but still I’m afraid of her. So I think this falls into the irrational fear realm. I know it centers around defying her, outing her, speaking the truth, not protecting the facade. Also not allowing her family to use me. It’s not exactly centered around me, exactly. It’s more of a – others will suffer because of you- thing. The others being my husband and the animals. That’s where the paranoia and foreboding kick in. Waiting for the other shoe to drop. It’s not her directly, I’ve confronted her. It’s not exactly God either. I’ve confronted him too. I’ve called him ever name in the book. Nothing. It’s a sneaky thing, like coming after your family kind of fear. And it weirds me the hell out. In talking with hubby, he pointed out that she took credit for many bad things she couldn’t have possibly had control of. Made me believe she had more power than she could have had. That good thing and bad things happened because of her influence. He keeps reminding me that she’s just an old woman and we aren’t going to be punished for living life.
NarcAngel, thank you, but I am not upset.
I am just discussing what I feel is a valid point.
I am thinking both logically and emotionally. My emotional thinking actually leans more towards being horrified by HG’s abuse. My emotional thinking says, “Why not just leave, that is horrible?”
My logical thinking tells me that although it would be easy to say, “Why doesn’t she just leave? Why didn’t she stand up for herself?” “Get ice next time.”, that she did not do these things is because she was being abused and manipulated. It transparent to us because we know what we are dealing with and we are not in the situation. I think the emotional reaction is to blame the victim and ask why she didn’t things differently. Abuse counselors will tell you this is wrong. That it is damaging.
Yes, I do feel it is blaming or shaming.
Yes, we rationalize what happens. I also felt sort of in denial. I think that is a good statement. It is hard to see it for what it is. Abuse. I admire and respect HG when he uses that word.
It does not help those afraid of coming forward when we question why they didn’t react differently. They already feel shame. And those reading this might also feel embarrassed to come forward for what happened to them. It is not their fault. It is the abuser’s fault.
You might stay in an abusive relationship. You might not stand up for yourself. But the abuse was performed by the abuser.
I like to use the analogy of walking down a dark alley. If you tell a victim s/he was partially responsible for an attack/rape because s/he didn’t take precautions. I think that is wrong. Should you educate yourself and be careful? Yes. But the abuse/action is 100% the abuser’s fault.
Mercy,
“The ones being educated, coming to terms with the abuse, what is missing in our lives that we are trying to gain from the abuser? Are we learning about ourselves and why we stayed? Are we seeking help? Are we looking at our childhood and past relationships? Are we now, the ones that have escaped, taking responsibility so that we are never in this type of relationship again? Are we building our defenses.”
Very valid points as well! Great analysis! I agree.
Thank you for your reply. I think that was well put. Much appreciation to you.
❤Valk
So I get that people have varying opinions about how awful this seems. I find it relatively mild frankly on the spectrum of behaviors narcissists are capable of. My question is about your own personal “ick factor.” Is there behavior you find disturbing or curious or that befuddles you? Certainly there are things that are beneath you, but some higher functioning narcissists do some crazy stuff for supply/fuel. (Ted Bundy for instance) Now, personally I expect disgusting behavior from the lesser lessers.. They piss in weird places, molest everything moving including whatever is in the barnyard.. This isn’t what I’m talking about at all. People that ought to know better, more intelligent, better social graces, etc.
Kathy, I considered the ice with Alex story fairly mild too. Many of the readers here have told much more heinous stories of abuse and I have had that visceral anger response to some of those myself. So I totally understand what happened on this thread. Maybe it’s because we see the “good” HG here and reject the notion that he has the capability to be such a prick? I’ve read numerous stories where he is more of a villain than he was in this one though. Hold on to your hats ladies, the ride gets even more bumpy…stay tuned for super-de-duper douche bag behavior.
I don’t like the symbol that is attached to my comments. I want a prettier one
Yours is nicer than mine. I got puke yellow.
Bibi, you are beautiful. I wouldn’t describe it as puke yellow. It’s a lovely green like the belly of a tree frog.
Aw, MB, thank you. You have made my 4 yellow sides blush. Ribbit!
KM You can do this! As you fill out your reply you are given the chance to have an icon. Maybe you need a WP account. Express yourself!
Kellie and Bibi, you crack me up!! 😂😂 my symbol’s boring gray 😂 ❤️
😁
This is very mean, HG. But objectively speaking from a literary perspective your ending is brilliant. And your willingness to share your evil side is commendable, as it reinforces to us readers what you are. I still admit there are moments I don’t want to believe it.
I appreciate your constructive mind set.
Objectively speaking. Now there’s a concept. I applaud you.
Men and women already feel tremendous shame staying in an abusive relationship. After a man/woman is physically hit, sometimes s/he stays. Do they deserve to be abused further? Are they asking to be hit?
Now add to that, that the abuse is psychological, harder to detect and easier to rationalize.
I feel tremendous empathy for Alex. She is a victim of abuse. Period.
This is very triggering to me. I am sitting here with tears running down my face. For Alex to be denied the one thing that will give her relief makes me nauseous.
I have typed and erased many replies to this. I am having a difficult time wrapping my head around this one.
HG. I am curious about something.
If you had chronic physical pain issues that affected you on a daily basis; would you still do this to a girlfriend?
I do what is necessary to achieve what I need.
HG
Thank you for answering me and for your honesty.
I chose to leave the blog for the day while I got my ET under control. I am grateful my ex is not as intelligent as you although he did his share of horrific things.
I would think that most of us here have put up with narcissist abuse. We have been treated horribly and did not immediately walk away.
I put up with things I thought I would never allow because I thought I was in love, I was addicted, I rationlized behavior.
It is not so much of a stretch for me to image staying after something this horrible happened.
I hope all those being victimized can find the strength to get out. But I do not blame them for the horrible things that someone else did to them.
Valkyrie
I agree; we had no idea what we were truly dealing with and no one is to blame for that.
…
It would be interesting to go back and reflect upon the types mental health conditions he has encountered while dating these women. Let me elaborate…
He’s been with people who have probably had the following (this does not mean all of them have these conditions – I’m just noting the obvious ones):
1. Borderline Personality Disorder
2. Histrionic Personaliy Disorder
3. Depression
4. Anxiety – including those with trauma and probably PTSD and/or complex ptsd.
5. Maybe a dependent personality disordered person
I’m willing to entertain it’s possible that in his younger years (when he had less experience) he could have been with another narcissist by accident. Only he knows.
Note: I don’t think all the women he has been with have been disordered.
Another note: Let me first say I am fully aware the disorders above can be vindictive and manipulative don’t get me wrong BUT……
It appears to me he probably has not (and correct me if I’m wrong HG) been with anyone who has a disruptive behavior disorder (oppositional defiant disorder, conduct disorder, intermittent explosive etc.) or has aspd or psychopathy – even in his earlier less experienced years (again correct me if I’m wrong). I could totally wrong because I don’t have all the information needed to make a totally accurate judgment but that’s just the impression I get from these stories.
I can tell you right now with complete certainty that none and I mean NONE of the disruptive disorders or another sociopath or psychopath would take it all and not fight back. They would and mark my words raise hell and bring shit to the next level. Allow me to elaborate when I say “fight back” – I mean be combative, sneaky, manipulative and vindictive. I mean it’s a given for the sociopath and the psychopath but with the other disorders I mentioned it’s tricky.
I’m not saying some ODD and CD etc. wouldn’t take the abuse – I’m saying these other disorders would have caused a fucking shit storm – a messy shit storm. Let me clarify – I’m talking an ODD with an ADHD and CD with an ADHD even these two disruptive behavior disorders with the extra comorbidity is depression. If you add anxiety in there it complicates issues but I’m sure you are what I’m saying. So… let’s exclude a comorbidity of anxiety with any of the disruptive behavior disorders at the moment.
Note: People with adhd, odd, and cd are also wired differently – especially when it comes to reinforcement.
I know the other cluster b’s cause a fucking shit storm but I mean there is something different that happens when you take away the personality disorder dimension and comorbidity with a personality disorder. okay, let’s say you have a histrionic who was also dx with CD – that histrionic part complicates the matter and will change the dynamic.
I’m just thinking and typing…
Again I could be wrong because I don’t have all of the information I need but it’s the impression I get.
This is really sad to read . Goals ruined off such a young lady . For believing in the wrong love .
A good reminder to never deal with selfish people again .
Never seen this article before.
I am appalled by this.
The worst part of it that occurs is how it probably isn’t the worst thing ever done to someone by far.
Allowing somebody to be pain by removing what could be classed as there medicinal relief… And leaving her to be in pain on purpose. Poor Alex.
Urrrgh…no no no
I don’t like this I really don’t like this.
Thanks for the honesty.. genuinely.
Words fail though..words just fail.
Makes me very sad to read this.
Leaves a stain.
This has triggered me so badly.
I feel really really upset about it.
It’s as if I can’t believe it…
And I cannot believe how bad it’s made me feel.
Actually it’s made me cry I just really don’t like it.. is the deliberate cruelty..it isn’t as if I don’t understand what all this blog is about… I just cannot believe how it’s upset me so much..I say words fail me and yet they flow now with tears streaming down my face its so ridiculously dramatic.. I just feel sick to my stomach.
I cannot stand this.. it’s agonising having pain like that.. she trusted you she thought you was going to help.. you went out and you didn’t bring anything back like you said.
Its so rotton and for some reason I felt it as I imagined it and I’ve just burst into tears over it it’s a massive trigger.
DebbieWolf, HG triggers me a lot. When you can calm down and get some distance on it, see if you can remember something like this happening to you. That is usually the case with me when he’s touched very close or right on a past wound. I know I have many childhood wounds. I’ve buried those wounds and only see them through a childs eyes. When he hits something that triggers me, I try to go back to it and look at it from an adult perspective. Perhaps gaining some insight and answers as to why it happened and how I can change my feeling on it. Hope this helps. .
IdaNoe
Thanks for your comment.
I will have to calm down about it.. you are right I have no immediate memory of anything like this.. perhaps something will surface I just don’t know..
DebbieWolf,
I can’t answer for HG or any narcissist but… I can tell you what I’ve experienced In my life, I have seen my ex husband set up his daughter. He put her in no win situations, applied a little pressure and watched her crumble. I’m not big on going battle royal in front of children, but when he did this to her, I’d go for his jugular. I understood what he was doing because it was done to me. I saw the same technique applied to her that my parents applied to me. I confronted him regularly and did my best to defend her or draw his wrath. Then try to explain to her with the limited knowledge I had. So yes, some do it in secret so they can watch the reaction they cause. Kind of like an arsonist likes to watch the fire they set burn and see the fire trucks arrive. It’s a thrill to cause chaos and destruction. Just like narcissists like to unraveled people. It makes them feel powerful and important to be the undoing of someone, even if that person is unaware that they caused it. I think its upper level narcissists who are aware of what they’re doing, that will eventually let slip ( at the appropriate moment of course) that they caused the problem, chaos, or devastation. Then they can revel in it twice as much. First as the person struggles initially then later as they grasp up comprehend that someone they loved and trusted could undermine them. Its double the fuel, double the fun for the narcissists.
IdaNoe
This makes a lot of sense.
Not a romantic partner but there is someone in a work environment that is doing something similar to this.
I will read your comment a few times I know it’s going to get me thinking on some Lines. It is hard to accept that people do things the way they do.. to harm and hurt and cause so much pain and destruction and Chaos.. but just because I don’t want to accept it doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t ..that I mustn’t.
The whole point of this learning is I’ve got to take this in. I’ve gotta see these things.
I’m relatively good at fighting people.
I’m relatively good at escaping.
I’m relatively good at stopping them in their tracks when I see something that I don’t like.. Something nasty. Before they take it too far….but. then I stop looking deeper.. I just literally go..
Of course I ended up ensnared again last time…because I wasn’t looking deeper into this stuff..I have learnt lots of things here.
I guess I wasn’t expecting to be triggered out of the blue when I’m thinking I’m pretty much wearing my armour.
Certainly another lesson in complacency even for someone who says like I did that I am not complacent!
It’s night time here in England and I’m going to turn in.. I feel a bit exhausted….thank you IdaNoe for your care and compassion. And Food for Thought. I need to do some more thinking.
And more healing.
I read your comments about the Marshmallow and the dog and the bone.. that was a really cruel thing that happened to you.. that made me feel angry too.
I’m glad you are not frightened of dogs despite that..Honestly..some people are beyond belief.in bad ways. but luckily it is good to know that there are still very many people who are not like that.xx
DebbieWolf,
Another thought. Everyone has wounds. Everyone has triggers , even narcissists. They hide, they lie, they protect those wounds and triggers, but everyone has them. It’s far better to be triggered here, in a safer environment than in the world. Here you have time to cope, deal and gain insight. If you really want to overcome, embrace being triggered. It’s how you learn where your triggers are. I believe to be safe in the world and no longer draw narcissists, we must know our own weaknesses and address them as soon as they show up thereby creating a “”bulletproof shield of knowledge “. It’s a daunting task, but it separates us from our narcissists. They refuse to address their weakness so must punish us to show their strength. They dont understand what real strength is. Its compassion.
DebbieWolf
Do you think that it triggers so badly because over time we read the articles but somehow separate them from the “person” we have come to know and learn things about (including abuse) as HG, despite the fact that he tells us that he is evil and despicable? That we do not fully make the link that he is capable of these things? That you feel as if you dont understand what this blog is all about because sometimes it takes the brutal truth in this way to have it penetrate our skulls? That he can actually do these things given what was done to him?
I am sorry that you have been so affected by it.
Hi NarcAngel
Yes.
I think there is an element of that.
Because HG has been so helpful to me personally. He has been often kind toward me. I do find it hard to accept that he did this.and also because he probably still does these things is the thing that upsets me. Though nobody says he does still do them..I suppose I think of him in treatment and surpassing these things even though he is what he is and nothing will change.
I do understand that really.
But it is difficult when you have admiration for somebody who has guided you and been a mentor and helped you so much..yes there is a separation between him being that kind of hero in a way to hearing him do these horrible things as actual events.
Because sometimes the articles the way they are written they’re just about the ‘kinds’ of things done… Horrible yes.. but this was really personal about an actual person. Oh, I do not know NA..
I just burst into tears.
I felt so sorry for the girl I felt like it was me and yeah I don’t have any kind of memory of anything similar happening with any boyfriend.
I’ll probably need some time to think about why it affected me this way but I honestly cried my eyes out.
It is true that I don’t want the man who showed me so much kindness to be so cruel but that is completely irrelevant.
perhaps it is my own vanity ..is it that for all HG has done for me and that I revere him for it so as to not want him to be anything less than wonderful? Perhaps.
Also because for some reason I almost lived the article…it was like I could see it in my mind and I could virtually feel the ache in the knee!!!.. Honestly I know this sounds ridiculous…
I know that sounds very odd.
And I felt a sense of Betrayal.
Do I personally feel betrayed ? did I feel the betrayal of Alex?
I think a little of both.
And yet it was Alex that was betrayed not me!!!
HG is completely honest about who he is and what he is. Always has been.
It is me that needs to get a grip!.
More for me to think about because there’s some trigger in there.
Even though it doesn’t have anything to do with me as such.
Major think for me in a few areas.
Ill get there.
Thanks for posing the question NarcAngel.
It is important to be honest with ourselves and your question serves well. Xx
NA
I believe this happens a lot on the blog! We see HG as a teacher, we read, listen and consult with him. There are some that joke and flirt with him. But then when he puts one out there like this, everyone acts surprised at the tactics and abuse that he uses to gain fuel! He is probably the only one on here that has been honest from the start! He has taught us what he knows and does to survive. Just as it is hard for us to look at things from his prospective it is also hard for him to understand ours. I know how hard it might be for some to read of him treating people like this! But this is who he is! I also know from being on this blog for so long that you do not sugar coat anything! You will be the first one to comment if someone needs help in any way. At some point we have to stop being the victim and accept responsibility for what happens to us.
FM1T
Re HG
“He is probably the only one on here that has been honest from the start! ”
Incorrect.
He isn’t the only one who’s been honest on here at all from the start.
You are entitled to your opinion.
I disagree with it and
I resent that comment about hg being the only one who was been honest from the start.
What reason is there to be dishonest on here there may be people but there are very many
not like that, there’s no reason for it.
I personally have been honest at all times.
I’m sure there are others of course there are, but they can speak for themselves.
I personally wasn’t surprised by what he wrote about Alex. I was appalled. There’s a difference. Though you are not referring to me personally I’ll make it clear….
I wasn’t acting all surprised I was apalled.
I answered NarAngels quesstion too, in depth last night 10pm.. also with complete honesty.
However the comment remained in moderation.
It wasn’t unpleasant in anyway..far from it.
I have reposted it today but it remains to be seen whether it will come onto the blog.
It was a good question from NA and I gave an honest answer to it.
As usual.
DebbieWolf
I knew someone on here would not understand what I meant about HG being the only one on here that has been honest from the start! I was referring to him knowing who and what he is. We come on here not even knowing what a narcissist is ! Some of us are so hurt physically, mentally, and emotionally that we can’t think straight anymore! But as we learn from HG we begin to understand who it was that we were involved with. But why? We have to look deep inside of ourselves to find out why they are attracted to us! What is it that I do or what has happened perhaps in my childhood that has caused me to be a narc magnet?! If we are not honest with ourselves and simply keep putting all of the blame on them, we will never completely heal! We will never break the pattern that has consumed some of us are whole lives! As for Alex, there are to many unknown factors for me in this story to say one way or another! Was she bed ridden? Did she try to call him when he didn’t return? Did she sit there in pain waiting for him to return if so was she able to get up, hopple over to the freezer and take out a bag of frozen vegetables or something else that would of worked just as well as ice? If it was such a serious injury why did she not go straight to the hospital? Almost all sporting events both small and large have an ambulance crew standing by or at least a trainer or team Doctor that would of been able to look at it and decide just how serious the injury was. I’m not condoning the way HG behaved in this matter at all! But it is in MY opinion a stretch calling her a victim. As for your comment to NA I’m sure it will be posted, why wouldn’t it be?We all have a voice on this blog. We may not always agree with one another but that is how we learn and are able to keep moving forward.
Foolme1time
I understood you to mean that we may not always have been honest with ourselves from the beginning. Not that we were deceiving others.
Hi NarcAngel
Thanks for your reply.
I have replied to you earlier at the same time as I replied to IdaNoe, as your comment is defo food for thought.x
NarcAngel
Re-Posting
Yes.
I think there is an element of that.
Because HG has been so helpful to me personally. He has been often kind toward me. I do find it hard to accept that he did this.and also because he probably still does these things is the thing that upsets me. Though nobody says he does still do them..I suppose I think of him in treatment and surpassing these things even though he is what he is and nothing will change.
I do understand that really.
But it is difficult when you have admiration for somebody who has guided you and been a mentor and helped you so much..yes there is a separation between him being that kind of hero in a way to hearing him do these horrible things as actual events.
Because sometimes the articles the way they are written they’re just about the ‘kinds’ of things done… Horrible yes.. but this was really personal about an actual person. Oh, I do not know NA..
I just burst into tears.
I felt so sorry for the girl I felt like it was me and yeah I don’t have any kind of memory of anything similar happening with any boyfriend.
I’ll probably need some time to think about why it affected me this way but I honestly cried my eyes out.
It is true that I don’t want the man who showed me so much kindness to be so cruel but that is completely irrelevant.
perhaps it is my own vanity ..is it that for all HG has done for me and that I revere him for it so as to not want him to be anything less than wonderful? Perhaps.
Also because for some reason I almost lived the article…it was like I could see it in my mind and I could virtually feel the ache in the knee!!!.. Honestly I know this sounds ridiculous…
I know that sounds very odd.
And I felt a sense of Betrayal.
Do I personally feel betrayed ? did I feel the betrayal of Alex?
I think a little of both.
And yet it was Alex that was betrayed not me!!!
HG is completely honest about who he is and what he is. Always has been.
It is me that needs to get a grip!.
More for me to think about because there’s some trigger in there.
Even though it doesn’t have anything to do with me as such.
Major think for me in a few areas.
Ill get there.
Thanks for posing the question NarcAngel.
It is important to be honest with ourselves and your question serves well. Xx
DebbieWolf
I absolutely understand your reaction. I just wondered if you knew what it was that caused it or if it was born of confusion. It sounds like the latter. I hope you’re feeling better today.
NA
Hey NarcAngel..
I agreed with you about the trigger and elaborated.. and thanked you for posing the question. ironically at the end I said it was important to be honest with ourselves… but my comment isn’t showing.
No one has an automatic right to post and HG may have decided not to post it.
Also can I just say.. to clarify I didn’t say I feel as though I didn’t understand what the blog was all about…
I said
*…it “isn’t” as if I don’t understand what all this blog is about*
Meaning I do understand what it is all about..
Anyway .. the article was triggering.
More so than any other. So there must be something personally I need to think about.
(My original answer to your question may appear but if it does not it’ll be because it wasn’t moderated through. It wasn’t unpleasant ..in fact it was complementary toward HG as regarding the help I have received.)
DebbieWolf,
I really could feel your sadness and despair from what you wrote.
When one is emotionally invested with one of this kind, the self-delusion that they provoke in you is blinding.
Now when you are emotionally detached and looking it from the outside, you are not longer deceived by your need to believe that
goodness always wins over evil or that love wins all. Now you realise the wickedness of certain behaviours.
This way of looking at the world ( that there is always hope and goodness) in the first place is exactly the one that makes you vulnerable to them.
I do not know your story but I believe this behaviour is an example of a malignant narcissistic machiavellian psychopath( as I believe HG’s diagnosis has been determined).
You can find cross-overs between NPD and ASPD / psychopaths-sociopaths.
Some of the above may even have traits of malice/sadism and machiavellism .
However:
Not all narcissists are malignant or Machiavellian
Not all psychopaths are malignant or Machiavellian
When you read this and look it from the outside, then you face the harsh truth of what it really is, of how it really is …
And that is exactly what is meant to be :A real wake – up call: never again.
Best wishes
SuperXena
Thank you. So true and valid. Xx
SuperXena
Thank you. So true and valid comment xx.
You are welcome DebbieWolf!
Best wishes
Hi Debbie,
I hope you’ve had a chance to calm down this evening. It is hard to read different entries, especially the older articles about HG’s personal interactions with his ex’s rather than the educational articles talking about midrangers, elites, or types of empaths.
I remember all of these stories and that is why I had the strong opinion I did a ways back that if HG was open minded to doing an isolation experiment or one with another person for part of it while cut off from all other fuel sources, I don’t believe it is treating him like a circus animal or it is demeaning to his humanity.
Firstly, he is considering it. Secondly, he above stated once again he will do whatever he needs to to suit his fuel needs. He has the grit for something like that especially if it means it would catapult his desire on providing the best research on narcissism for science.
We have only gotten tiny snippets of what he’s done to people here, women especially. If there is something that can be done to prevent this kind of abuse from happening with people who have an open mind willing to try, then I say go for it.
Hi Clarece
Yeah…thanks… I don’t feel upset now and I have calmed down nevertheless something is off. I will deal with it.
Also yes about the isolation experiment.
I remember HG saying ages ago that he was going to take a few weeks where he was on his own etc.
when I commented about how I couldn’t bear him being the centre of an experiment excetera is because I’m too soft natured.
it doesn’t matter who does what I still get feelings where I can’t bear things occurring to people…hg was no exception at the time.
But I’m going to concentrate on myself and not on what HG did …does or doesn’t do.
It’s back to the drawing board for me.
I don’t think understanding makes any difference right now and there isn’t any point in understanding deeper into as I was attempting to
Now it’s about Tactics in life so that when red flags come up they are countered.
Keeping the faith but this is War.
It is a war in life to make sure that the enemy is avoided.
The Old phrase I don’t need to know how the train works I just need to know that the train travels from A to B.
I will apply my own phrase I don’t need to know how the train works anymore I just need to know which one to get on or off.
That’s the train to success and peace and not the Bastard Express.
(Meaning anybody who is a bastard toward me. I’m not calling the blogger bastard Express just in case anybody gets the wrong idea)
Plenty of bad rides out there and as long as I’ve got a working timetable that shows me what to do and what not to do… That is now all I’m interested in.
The Mechanics of how the hypothetical train works no longer interest me.
It’s just a waste of time.
I don’t want to understand anymore of it. . all I need to do is act in my own interests so that I’m not in a bad position just like all of you need to do and you do it in a much more effective way than I right now.
I slipped up and you could say I fell.
I’m fucking stood up today and that in part is due to you lovely people here.
My God.. the ******* that turned their backs and lost out on some of you..
Makes me smile because you grow and become even more enhanced!
It is heartbreaking and saddening and difficult.
But it will never be impossible to leave it all behind.
No. It will never be impossible.
we are the ones who seem to be expected to change and grow and so we do.
Narcissists remain the same.
I said many moons ago narcissists do not have the Monopoly on boredom.. we evolve. They don’t.
Enough is enough and I will dim accordingly and act where necessary.
Yes I was triggered..but now I turn that trigger into something else.
I have no choice.
This is my life and at the end of it I don’t want to end up with something I didn’t like… like a meal in a restaurant that was crap yet I sat there and ate?
🐾
Clarece
Sometimes when I read the older articles I wonder if HG would use that manipulation now. We’re all older now, and has said that he is looking at being more pro-social so maybe not, or maybe he’s worse. I know I have changed my opinion about some things after being here and reading and I wonder how it has affected him. Only he knows though.
Hi NA! HG remains quiet. I waited to see if he responded to you to answer you if he would still deploy this type of manipulation. I have heard him answer even my questions over time that he’s more “pro-social” and even that he has experienced more forethought into pausing before instinctively reacting with a manipulation as he used to do. A slight decrease if you will. He used to say he had an open mind to change only if he saw a benefit to him.
On the other hand, he has also said his work on the blog and with consults (hearing our stories) has only made him more effective.
To me, this was a form of physical abuse he did to Alex and he said that was always beneath him. It does lead me to believe that if he maintains the fuel dictates what he must do, then what if he is with someone who is on heart medication or another has another medical condition? Where does it stop that he may actually tamper with someone’s medicinal routine as he tried to sabotage Alex from getting ice on her knee from a fresh injury? All stemming from what suits his fuel needs and some possible narc injury he suffers and won’t just try to talk about it and deal with? That is beyond morally wrong to me.
DebbieWolf,
I’m sorry it has triggered you so much and made you feel so bad. I didn’t like it either and it made me angry. It really upsets me when someone abuses someone else’s honesty and trust so maliciously and hurtfully.
So many things are based on trust. It is the glue that holds a lot of things together. Narcissists set out to create trust and then they abuse and destroy that trust. Without trust, so many things that have the potential to be good, or rewarding, or positive, or beautiful, are tainted and toxic and made less than.
We can think objectively all we like and become as logical as robots. Without trust though, most things would wither and die.
DebbieWolf,
Don’t allow the abusive and cruel things you see and read take away all of your hope and trust. There are still good people who care and don’t want to abuse anyone. Just be careful about who you trust. Take your time to believe and to trust in anyone, and most importantly, trust your own self. Don’t allow anyone to take that away 🙂
WiserNow
Your comment is valuable and I really appreciate it. I am a trusting person.
It’s difficult to find the balance sometimes.. in my case a lot of the time.
It’s important not to lose faith in others even though it is really difficult.
I will heed what you say.. and particularly about trust… Always my Achilles heel.. I will heed the comments from others.💞
The very proof of your own comment is here in company with the absolute tremendous people who have said and offered such wise and helpful information in the face of their own pain too.
So for that alone I can keep my faith in some people… Because the evidence is here at least. And I am grateful.
I truely appreciate it. 🐾
DebbieWolf,
You’re welcome and Thank You for your lovely and heartfelt reply 💕
I agree with you that NarcSite is a great place and the people here have helped me a lot too. Like you, I’m very grateful to you and everyone. Being here and communicating with others who understand has helped me so much. It has helped me to see that empathy and compassion are very powerful things. They can restore trust and faith and make us believe in ourselves and others again.
Keep that little flame alive and burning DebbieWolf and please know that your willingness to trust and other empathic qualities are like beautiful gifts. They just need to be protected and not given away too quickly 🎁
I am hurt by HG’s behavior and those blaming Alex for continuing to fall for these behaviors and not to put herself first.
“I’m not condoning what HG did, but…why didn’t Alex *fill in the blank*?” Alex is a victim. What you are doing is victim blaming and it is very damaging.
This is what keeps people from reporting abuse and seeking help. The shame they feel or feeling stupid for “allowing” the abuse. They feel judged.
No one asks for abuse. Narcissists are very good at manipulating. Who knows what tactics he employeed specifically, but there are many, including salami slicing, love bombing, gas lighting, word salad, compulsive lying, intermittent reinforcement.
I would think more people on this board would understand. We were manipulated. I did things that I never thought I would do. I allowed things. I thought I was too smart or too intuitive to ever let happen. I try not to be so judgmental now. Yes, we should educate ourselves. Yes, we should be guarded. But we are not responsible for the abuse. The person responsible is the person who committed the horrible acts. Who among us saw this coming? Who had all the answers and walked away at the first sign of abuse?
Have you never let a narc do something completely disrespectful or harmful to you physically or psychologically? Is it your fault they committed the act?
The blame lies with the perpetrator. The blame lies with the rapist. The blame lies with the wife/husband beater. The blame lies with those who psychologically abuse and manipulate.
🤣 I can’t help this one! I can see my narc disappearing with my pointees!
What are pointees? Are those like Madonna’s cone boobs?
I was at the gym and bumped the phone. Sorry, my bad. No. Pointe shoes. Ballerina pointe shoes.
I want one of those cone boobs. Disturbing as they are, I can cause some damage!!!!
These stories anger me. Good lessons here.
Indeed and it serves a purpose for you.
And I hope that, after reading all these posts, no one will say again HG is cute.
Wow- that was low……. even for you! The hair on my arm stood up! Good thing I still come here for my Narc- group……. Yikes! I actually am feeling very bad for his new IPPS…… really bad!
Thank you..
I have read previous comments of this story from in it’s earlier posts. For those of you who think the victim is “stupid” or “you wouldn’t have put up with that” or “she should have known better”, you are victim shaming and you are part of the problem. This person was emotionally and physically abused.
And how many “stupid” things did you fall for or do that you never would have thought you would when you were with a narcissist? No one deserves to be abused, manipulated and treated with such lack of humanity.
It deeply hurts me what we and other women/men have gone through. It is not their fault. It is not the fault of a woman/man who is abused. The fault lies with the person who committed those acts. Stop blaming the victim.
Yeah, I agree with you Valkyrie. I just felt sad when I read this article. It’s awful.
I’ve been with an addict, who started using again during our relationship, and I didn’t notice because they’re so good at lying and manipulating. I’m not a naive person, but it took a while before I knew what was going on. I’m sure outsiders said they would never let it come that far, but that’s too easy, it doesn’t work like that.
I also don’t think it’s very useful to say HG is a bastard or an asshole; everyone here knows what he is and what he did, because he shares a lot of it with us, which is useful as it can help us recognize red flags. (No ice in the fridge=Red Flag! 😉) We know he doesn’t care. I prefer to read everyone’s experiences in the comments.
I appreciate your point of view Rachel, I do not have an issue with people wanting to express their view in strong terms even if it is an insult part of this blog’s purpose is to allow people a voice when they have often been denied one.
Well yes, of course. I didn’t mean that you might feel bad about it, I meant that it’s so useless to scream or swear when the other person (you) really isn’t bothered in the slightest. Just like all of our narcissist ex-boyfriends, husbands etc. don’t care, and never will. And nothing we say can change what happened to your girlfriends. We can share our stories and support each other though.
There are articles on this site I wish I had never read, because it’s just too awful, and it has nothing to do with my experience with narcissism.
I also don’t think I’ll stay here much longer, because I think I know enough (thanks again for that), and I don’t really want to keep reminding myself of what was. I mean, I don’t want to pay anymore attention to that guy, and reading comments, commenting, and reading follow-up comments is kind of addicting too. Before you know it you’re stuck on a blog about narcissism for years. 😎
Great place though, it’s the strangest place I’ve been. (And I don’t think you’re 60+ anymore, it has to be somewhere between 46 and 49) ✌🏼
Rachel,
I can see why you would think it’s “useless” to scream or swear at a narcissist seeing that they only see that as fuel. I don’t mind you saying that and it just adds to the discussion. I enjoy seeing all the points of view here.
To me though, it actually wasn’t useless to call him a bastard. That is exactly what I felt at the time I wrote my comment and it felt right to say something authentic and real, even though I can see it was insulting and rude and I wouldn’t normally say it.
I’m sure that my comment will not cause HG’s knees or ankles to get stiff and sore and it won’t affect his future dreams of creating a legacy after years of practice, hard work and dedication…
There are plenty of times both here on the blog and in real life that I’ve had to hold back the emotional reaction I’ve felt and be more detached or “intellectual” about things. I now try to do it all the time and I realise the need to be logical. Sometimes though, an honest reaction is healthy too.
I don’t mean to be contrary, but after seeing your comment, I personally think it’s a bit useless to try and guess HG’s age like you have done. What’s the point of that? I wouldn’t care if he’s 18 or 80 if he’s writing the same articles and helping me to understand. After reading this article and reacting to the mental and physical abuse of his girlfriend, the question of whether HG was in his late 40s or not didn’t even enter my mind. I guess we all see things differently.
WiserNow, I thought I unsubscribed from this thread, but I just saw your reply. If you don’t mean to be contrary, than don’t be. It’s passive agressive. Don’t point fingers, because I wasn’t pointing fingers at you, or anyone.You don’t have to understand the age comment, and I’m not going to explain either. I can tell you that is has to do with a certain sense of humour.(which may or may not always translate very well, since English is not my language) I don’t think I said anything offensive, not to you, to HG, or anyone here. And you’re free to think this is not the place for that, but in that case, the entire blog should be free of jokes because in the end, all articles are about the same subject, and it’s not funny.
WiserNow, we had a thread going on another posting trying to guess HG’s age.
K, was it in the Ask HG A Question post?
Valkyrie and Rachel,
It’s ok, I’ve seen various threads where people have tried to guess HG’s age and as far as I’m concerned, you can all feel free to talk about it until the cows come home.
The reason I brought it up was to illustrate that sometimes people say things that they feel a need to say even though other people may not feel that the comment in question is useful or has much signficance.
For example, when Rachel said she thought it wasn’t useful to call HG various names because it only gives him fuel and therefore serves no other purpose, that was a judgement on her part. I disagree. People say things here to make their thoughts and feelings known.
In a similar way, I didn’t think that guessing HG’s age was very useful or relevant in the light of all the other comments for this article. Normally, I wouldn’t have mentioned anything or pointed it out because I would just scroll past and forget about it. But in this instance I felt like making a point that what one person finds useful or relevant can be very different to what another person finds useful or relevant. That’s all.
I didn’t intend to point fingers or for Rachel to take it as a “passive aggressive” insult.
My point was to illustrate that I think we all have to keep an open mind. What you think is useful or relevant may not be what another person finds useful or relevant.
Hello Valkyrie
Yes, Questioning Me was the most recent thread where we discussed his age. He is under fifty (I am just being preemptive here).
I put up with lots of things, too, and I do not victim blame. I try to come from a position of understanding.
https://narcsite.com/2015/09/29/questioning-me/comment-page-3/#comments
It is difficult to swallow, but I so much appreciate your honesty I cannot even fully express it.
Thank you, you benefit from this honesty, unpleasant as it may be at times.
I do and in so many subtle ways. I am working with concepts daily, it has been immensely helpful.
Not really though eh? Unless someone knows what a narc is and has an inkling as to the depravity you stoop down too, they only know they had ice and now they do not. They only know you checked out to “go get some” and went to the bar instead. One has to have been through this to possibly benefit from your admissions. All the people who have not “met you” lay in possible wait of your destruction. And how about animals? Do they benefit from “honesty” in a post like this? The narcs who need to shoot standing giraffes, how do the giraffes benefit eh?
I need to process this story. “Unpleasant as it may be” does not really go deep enough to describe the reality here, then does it?
By the way because you “do not believe in karma” does not (I snort as I type this) mean you will not meet your own. And hey, it is not a matter of you did this, so you will suffer that. It is more like the swing of the pendulum. Yours seems to be way out by Mars somewhere. When it comes hurtling back, for balance, as pendulums swing, we shall see. Because you do not believe in “life after death” does not mean your consciousness suddenly bleeps to zero. Is that why you are seemingly ‘most afraid’ of “nothing.
Thanks for the warning, I will look out for that swinging pendulum though I suspect it may have got stuck in the asteroid belt.
HG, how clever of you to post these articles. The puppet master indeed. Virtual fist bump my friend.
Nunya,
I agree, this one seemed particularly hard to read but even as I was doing so, I was aware a narc was telling his truth, and I appreciate the glimpse because I certainly didn’t have a clue with narcex.
wissh,
It is a really big deal to me. And I’ve had times when things were done to me and I felt something was “off” or I “suspected” and then I put my foot down. I’ve even ended relationships abruptly in bursts of self esteem and confidence and a determination to never go back to the worst of relationship abuses I’ve suffered in the distant past when I had the lowest defenses and I’ve even handled things very well in moments or so I thought, but that is not enough to handle more subtle maneuvers well and not enough to always help me not feel crazy and not enough for me to fully understand what has happened in my life so that I can embark on my own healing process. It’s also not enough for me to understand exactly what I do to cause my own problems sometimes and why and also what narcissistic things I’ve done and why. I also get to point out some things to my kids as they turn up and I get to alter some of my perspectives in ways that bleed out to them (I hope). Even small things make an impact. That is one of the most important things in the world to me as far as benefit.
I’ll never be able to fully remove all of life’s pain, that’s impossible, and the truth can still sometimes be a real downer, but it does give me a greater ability to make choices in an understandable direction, with an understandable outcome for an understandable reason. As far as taking my healing into my own hands I am very serious about it and have been spending quite a few hours weekly in therapy. I am fortunate enough to have reached a point in my self-introspection that it is actually helpful (wow that’s an understatement…”when the student is ready”).
I think there is something very special about honesty, even though I frequently find the truth elusive. Two different things. Bit of a mindfuck sometimes.
HG,
You’re a bastard for doing that. She was your girlfriend.
How long into the relationship did you start playing this cruel game with the ice? Did Alex ever discover the truth about it?
So it has been said.
I don’t recall precisely.
No she did not.
Further proof how one does not benefit from this admission. Unless she reads this one day. And the guy/gal up there who said they had to stretch their empathy when one gets involved with this sort of madness more than once, is further proof to that, it does not play out as simply as “lesson learned”. Lack of compassion is lack of compassion. lack of ability to feel compassion is just that. Anyone tortured by this malignancy does not deserve scorn. Education that actually benefits them yes, bring truckloads more of that.
HG,
I’m an atheist so I don’t really believe you’ll get yours as someone else implied, but do you have religious beliefs of your own?
If it is advantageous to have them, yes.
HG
I know you can’t feel guilty, but this is so horrible and as I’ve wondered before, I’ll just ask you. Lack of guilt and remorse aside, do you understand how wrong it is to fuck with people like this? How much hurt and pain you cause?
I understand other people regard it as wrong from their perspective.
😭 poor Alex
Sorry, but you’re an awful person
To some, yes.
HG
Does it hurt your feelings to hear or read comments such as Kelly’s?
As for your response to my comment, is it that you don’t understand you’re hurting someone, that you don’t care, or that it actually brings you pleasure? Just trying to understand. Thank you.
No, it is a dollop of fuel.
I do not care, my needs must be addressed.
I don’t understand… How is it a dollop of fuel?
I thought fuel equated to attention positive or negative from someone but this is just the gratification from a wicked act… But the victim wasn’t aware you were applying one.
So the fuel comes from even the secretive acts that harm??
Because Alex didn’t know you had removed the ice.. she didn’t know*you* did it deliberately, so she wouldn’t have blamed you one way or the other would she and then given you a certain reaction aimed at you?
Satisfaction was just there knowing you’d cause her prolonged pain?
All the while she wouldn’t have blamed you for it as to give you positive or negative reactions… I don’t understand how it’s a dollop of fuel ??? unless it is just because a wicked act was performed in secret against her and that gives some kind pleasure?… This is where the sadism comes in then?
No, I was referring to being called a bastard – that is the dollop of fuel.
Oh. I see.
I thought it meant something else.
But even getting that bit wrong I guess part of my comment still stands?
The part where Alex didn’t know what you did and didn’t know enough to blame you one way or another.
So this is where sadism comes in maybe.
I really just don’t know. Even now it proves to me that if I don’t see the true bad in people it’s probably because I don’t want to see it.
And as you said above.. this kind of thing serves as a lesson.
😓🤕
DebbieWolf
Narcs can get fuel by being like puppet masters. He would have gotten fuel just from manipulating her. She didn’t need to understand. Like gaslighting. You don’t need to understand it or realize that the narc caused it for them to gain fuel. In this case I think the fuel is sweeter if the victim stays confused. It lets the narc think he’s really smarter and more superior.
Windstorm
True.
My emotions were running really high.
It’s just not worth feeling drained and exhausted trying to understand sometimes. And it is difficult to take things in properly when emotions are high.
It was probably one of the biggest surges of emotion I’ve had since I’ve been on the blog.
Nevertheless I’m not putting the emotion to waste.
It will serve me and I will act on it.. but not with upsetment. Not now.
I was at the mall and I saw Chanel allure. I HAD to check it out.
HG, you slept in my bed… perfume wise.
Ha hal could have been me ..just kidding but I did gymnastics
This is an example of where I have to really stretch my empathy for the victim in falling for this more than once.
It’s called Narcissist Addiction, did you forget?
NA, didn’t your stepfather do stuff like this to you as a kid? Wreck the things you tried? Over involve himself so he could punch holes in it or tear it apart? Dangle a carrot of something you might enjoy or be good at, so he could take it away? Set you up for injury or harm? Then lord it over you as a failure? Both my parents did that repeatedly.
Yuck. I have plenty of memories of being overly criticized, having failure projected onto me, having failures highlighted and exaggerated, having my best interest ignored frequently and having my thoughts and feelings denied, ignored, talked over and overridden- but I don’t recall being actively manipulated into being set up for failure intentionally. That sounds awful.
Nunya biz, to keep it short as possible, an example: we moved sometime when I was 5, so this happened before the move. I’m outside eating marshmallows. Father is talking to another man. Neighborhood dog, a German Shepherd or Alsatian, named Tosca ( I loved Tosca) was laying in the yard chewing a bone. Father told me to take the bone away and give her a marshmallow. I did. She bit me. Not bad, but still frightening. Father then said, ” Now you’ve been dog bit, so you know what it’s like.” It didn’t make me afraid of dogs, but I learned right there not to trust him because he would get me hurt intentionally.
IdaNoe, thank you for sharing. That reminds me of some of the men on my father’s side. “Hard knocks” life education kind of thing? Some in my family got the worst of that part, I have a couple of cousins who suffered greatly. I was exposed to that sort of thing quite a bit but that family member mainly used degrading teasing and exposure to inappropriate behavior around me. Lucky it didn’t make you afraid of dogs.
The thing that makes me think it sounds awful is the confusion this kind of thing causes and how hard (sometimes impossible) it is to undo.
Today I had this image in my mind that HG is here playing “hot stove” and sometimes people need to relearn the born instinct that hot=hurt.
That’s what I think about Alex too, like it’s not completely that a person doesn’t “know” it’s also that it can get all tangled up in the idea that they should tolerate. Or being confused about what they have the right to expect. What you are talking about seems such a compounded version of that.
Nunya biz
Oh my father flat out said it didn’t matter what anyone did to me, only how I reacted. Now as an adult, I have some scope on that and understanding, but as a child, I didn’t. I seriously thought that it was just open season on me and anyone could do anything they wanted with no repercussions. But that I faced and did face repercussions if I reacted poorly. It wasn’t until I was a teenager until I began to fight back when people harmed me. Even then I did it in secret out of fear of my father. It wasn’t the physical punishment that I feared from him, it was the humiliation and him convincing me could and would send me to girls school( basically a prison for bad girls). We drove past it at least once a week. He would just glare at me in the rearview mirror as we drove by. I was terrified! My father was probably a lesser. Definitely a misogynist. I was a girl, I was stupid and useless. Then as I got older, it was clear, women were good for working and fucking, in that order. But my mother told of a completely different side of him. How they had this great love affair blah blah blah. I found out recently she was the affair that ended his first marriage.
Wow, IdaNoe. I am having an intense reaction reading your description. Half teary, half wanting to find the person who would do this and murder them.
There are some streaks of this behavior in my father, like I said, some similarities to that attitude in his upbringing and especially one of his brothers. No where near to the extreme you are talking about, but I definitely had plenty of instances where my emotional reaction was of more concern to him and more criticized than what was actually happening. Defending myself never came easy to me and I didn’t understand what was different about me in high school and why I would have random anxiety attacks and be unable to appropriately react to being treated blatantly badly. My dad would also compliment me a lot sometimes too though, so differences as well, but mainly I remember him trying to compensate for neglect and trying to constantly convince me of his view- oftentimes that he was meant to be a brilliant success or some crazy opinion about philosophical topics. I’d consider him a misogynist. I definitely don’t remember being taught to stand up for myself, to speak out, to fight back. Anytime I felt mad I was criticized very harshly.
My parents hate each other to this day, no idea how they were ever together really.
Nunya biz
I’m sorry I upset you. My intent of my original post was that while Alex may have tolerated more than she should have, sometimes people have been trained for a long time that that kind of behavior is acceptable. And there are times, when (prior to learning about narcissism) unconsciously reliving those childhood traumas, a person will accept horrible behavior because it’s what they know and are accustomed to. For me, being in a relationship is triggering. Alone, I make the rules for me, that’s why I prefer the company of animals. I was taught that when you love someone you must give up yourself and sacrifice to make them happy. That means sacrificing yourself, your beliefs, your own desires. If she was trained like this it might explain why she behaved as she did. I understood her reaction. In my head, HG was in charge, she was to be submissive. If he didn’t bring ice back, no matter what he said, it was because she had not suffered enough to deserve the ice. It was a test of love and loyalty. I know that’s screwed up. I see it now, but I didn’t for many years. I equated love with control and suffering.
As for murdering him, my father is long dead. He died a horrible miserable death over a long period. Everything was taken from him slowly over 13 yrs. In the end, he was in the fetal position and could only move his eyes. I was happy for him when he died. Life was beyond miserable for him. I’d never wished that on him. Oh, I’d like to have fought him, when he was big and strong, but I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. It was horrible.
I understand the inappropriate reactions. I would freeze in fear or completely freak out, like a cornered animal. It wasn’t until I made a somewhat normal friend around 8th grade, who had coping skills and taught me some, that I began to have some normal reactions. She was very kind and accepting of me. I learned a lot from her.
Your father sounds like my mother. My father was very black and white. Do it his way, or else. If you received his attention, most of the time it was because he was displeased. Other than that, he ignored. He wasn’t so distant when I was little, but he got more broodish as I got older. He could fix anything and I remember sitting in my window listening to him talk to the neighborhood boy while fixing their bicycles, wishing he’d talk to me like that. But, hey, he taught me to be stoic and how to set my own broken nose. He rarely gave compliments.
My mother was more the one to give the fake compliments and try to win you over to her side. She is the one who played all the mind games, pull you in- push you away, painted white one moment- painted black the next. Always dangling the carrot of love and approval. Dad didn’t dangle anything except a belt.
I learned to fight because I had to. There was so much pressure at home, so much fear, uncertainty, manipulation that to survive, I couldn’t take any more. I had to back other people off, get them to leave me alone. That meant fighting. By puberty, I had somehow drawn other sexual predators besides my cousin, the neighborhood boys. The way I found to make them stop was to explode in rage. I didn’t share with my parents what was happening for fear of being sent away, so I was never criticized for protecting myself. But I didn’t stand against my father until I was around 17. He drew back to punch me and I’d had enough. I was done being touched by anyone without my permission.
Amazing, IdaNoe, I’m so glad you said all of that. I have a hard time keeping up with comments and had been meaning to find my way back here. I’m sorry to hear about your dad’s discomfort, it would upset me also.
I definitely know what you mean about the man being in charge and feeling submissive. I lean that way usually and have some built up resentment about men who do not have the best intentions. Starting out with misogyny, etc, and bad male examples, moving on to my first live-in who even my own father tried to convince me to be kind to while he was abusing me (creating a willing participant, as HG says?), on to other relationships where it wasn’t near that level but self-centered intentional manipulation, apathy, or passive-aggressiveness. I am submissive IN PART. It requires trust. I can look at someone and see if they are leading their lives with heart. I am trying to find those lights, actively seeking them out. Clarity. An un-convoluted, un-confused idea about intentions, directions, desires. I would sometimes, somewhat participate in the “test of love” concept as you say, that is very insightful. I have come a very long way in my perspectives through a lot of self-exploration.
I have some serious exposure to sexual predators as well, I’m sorry, IdaNoe. I very much enjoy sexual intimacy, experimentation, exploration though, it is really important to me. One of the joys and I like to be close without also feeling like everything in life has to be taken so seriously. Love love love.
Like with the ice…. knowing that passion and love is supported not confused with punishment, withholding, apathy or whatever.
I think you are right about our parents having opposite roles. My dad had a different way than your mom, but yeah more similarities. I think my dad was more jovial but I was reading HG’s recent post about “paying back” and many of my dad’s past relationships were destroyed by money borrowing, grandiosity, false reassurances and rationalizations. I think he usually somewhat believed he’d pay back but the truth is he never could because it was never the top of his priority list. I don’t speak to him, I think he realized he couldn’t ask me for money when I got married (not a chance my husband would go for it at all, he lacks my guilt problems completely). He was sometimes very nice to me and I think the relationship was unhealthy and he somewhat objectified me, but I have some guilt. He would be highly critical if I threatened his view of himself sometimes, so I just avoided doing that and I felt neglected by him as far as basic daily care (food, health appointments, esteem issues). He would also sometimes isolate me to have convincing conversations until I shared his opinion. It was an odd dynamic. I often am just relieved he’s not around. My mom is the black and white one for sure. Punishments up to mid teens when I left home were slapping, paddling, silent treatment and yelling with zero physical affection or words of endearment, so I moved to live with my dad at 15. Then my convicted sex offender uncle moved in, I wasn’t touched by him though.
Thank you so much for sharing with me, I appreciate, it is nice to be able to discuss. I definitely remember times in my life where I experienced “freezing up” and also blushing from head to toe, panic attacks etc. thanks for relating. I don’t have that anymore. People frequently open up to me so I’m trying to use the narcissism information to my advantage, it helps me go in the right direction, still working on how to manage frustrations and temper, but this site is such a great puzzle piece for me.
*hugs* to you IdaNoe. Sorry so long!
NarcAngel,
I generally agree with your comments most of the time, however, I feel a need to reply to this one.
You are sometimes quite judgemental about the empathic person’s behaviour in the various scenarios that HG describes. This comes across as though you are almost cheering the narcissist on and you find their tactics acceptable, while implying the empathic person is an idiot for “allowing” it to happen.
It sometimes sounds like you think the narcissist has every right to abuse and that the empathic person is either ignorant or stupid for not recognising that their “loved” one is deliberately and maliciously intent on manipulating them and even causing them a physical injury while simultaneously gaslighting them into believing they’re in a loving and caring relationship.
Narcissistic manipulations are not normal or acceptable. They are sadistic and harmful.
You will probably object to my comment and tell me that’s not what you believe. It’s ok, you don’t have to feel that you need to prove me wrong etc. I just find it very objectionable to blame the girlfriend in this article while seemingly giving a free pass to the abuser.
It is a fair point WN and people have varying views as to where the line is drawn between victim and volunteer.
I said that my empathy had to stretch – not that it was non-existent. It’s also a bit of a stretch to say that I am cheering the narcissist on, or think that they have the right to abuse, or think it’s normal, etc. There is no free pass given. That is completely emotional thinking and judgmental as well in my view. There are many poor Alex comments since I made my comment, so I think we can establish generally that the treatment of her was accepted as wrong, however there is another aspect that I looked at.
What I saw in that story was that the routine was established that the ice was required. Essential even in recovery. Ok, so the first time it’s found that there is no ice – shit happens. So when the offer is made to go get her ice, and not only does he not come back expediently (knowing that she needs it to recover and is waiting on it), he comes back empty handed. Now what could possibly be offered in that instance that would allow her to explain away his blatant disregard for her and lack of concern or compassion? Ok, it gets explained (however) away at that point (the first time), but then it becomes a recurring thing. When you are an athlete and your health/performance depends on this routine and he has proven not to be dependable (given his past performance), despite what other things you may write off about his behaviour in other situations, at what point do you see to it that the ice is available (check before you leave or pick up on the way home) and acknowledge that you are offering him up excuses to demonstrate his neglect/abuse?
My question was: when in this process do you go from being victim to volunteer?
My first thought was: you better believe the damn ice will be there next time. I was a dancer. Trust me. Or I would discard him right there after stabbing his cock. Just saying. But I don’t think she was aware. And maybe the injury was not bad enough… either. Regardless… she stayed. I stayed. We stayed or we wouldn’t be here. I volunteered. Gazillion times hence my fury. I did volunteered. I was discarded. I didn’t leave the ass hole. What can I say? Still he has to pay. He will pay. I will make sure he pays. On my terms. That’s why I love HG. He is my weapon. And I will use what I learn here to infect that son of a whore… with a different poison.
NarcAngel,
The following words in your comment made me stop and think:
“Now what could possibly be offered in that instance that would allow her to explain away his blatant disregard for her and lack of concern or compassion?”
What could possibly be offered? After all of the tactics and behaviours that HG has very clearly written about, do you really still need to ask?
Before the relationship, how about the narcissist staking out and lurking in the places he ALREADY KNOWS that empathic victims are most likely to be?
How about deliberately watching and choosing an empathic victim because he ALREADY KNOWS how that victim is likely to respond to his abuse?
How about pathologically LYING and donning a facade, mirroring and love-bombing that victim because he ALREADY KNOWS that this will create a bond and condition the victim into thinking that the narcissist is inherently a good person with loving intentions. Even after the abuse takes place and the victim does become aware or suspicious, even then the narcissist denies, deflects, creates plausible excuses and talks his way out of any blame.
The point I’m making is that the narcissist stakes all of his actions on the basis that the victim DOES NOT KNOW. The very fact that the lying, facade and love-bombing are even needed is because the narcissist has a deliberate intention to DECEIVE and the deception is mixed in with loving acts and plausible excuses, future-faking and intermittent reinforcement. He ferrets out a need in the victim and acts to fill that need first, create a bond with the victim, and then abuse the victim after the bond is secured.
If the narcissist just came straight out and explained to the victim what he was actually doing the way HG explains it in his articles, of course the victim would know. It would be clear as day. The sad truth is that it’s definitely not that clear and easy to see when a narcissist is actually doing it.
Wisernow
Yes I have read all of what HG has offered about narcs planning, and also read about empaths not knowing and being in the dark. I have also read many comments from victims who acknowledge that they knew at some point (usually quite early on) that things were not as they appeared but that they allowed themselves to overlook and make excuses in order to stay in the relationship. What do you say to those people? Are they shaming others by admitting that? People do not need to have the label narcissist to know that they are being treated badly and when they are making excuses and lying to themselves. The label of narcissist only helps you to understand the narc behaviour in the aftermath. It does not explain the victims behaviour during.
In the beginning Alex did not know. Fine. As time went on she knew that not only was there never any ice when she needed it, but that when he offered to get it for her he came back empty handed (the article alluded to more than one occasion). If this is an ongoing thing, you need this ice for recovery, that future events depend on your use of it, and he has shown no compassion or respect for you in not only ensuring that it is available for you, (who among us would not have it ready for him if the tables were turned), but showing up empty handed after promising to get it for you, when have you crossed being a victim and entered into volunteer by not wanting to acknowledge these facts and address why it continues to happen, and why you continue to accept it? (Also why there always seems to be ice for drinks). You do not need to know he is a narcissist to know that this treatment of you is wrong. You may not be ready to deal with it but you know its wrong and that is where I see the area of movement (victim to volunteer). If this happened to your daughter would you not question what her thinking was and why it continued? Why do we accept something for ourselves that we would not accept for our daughters? That is what I am asking and I think needs to be examined. Yes narcs are bastards and I have stated previously that I dont think that they are as almighty and clever as they think they are. Isnt that a good thing? I’m saying we have the power to change that in changing our thinking. A lot of what goes on is because we override our own sensibilities and warning systems in order to not rock the boat or upset them. Are we still a victim if we allow someone to keep moving our boundaries?
Yes I think it was deplorable of HG
No I do not blame Alex
I am not cheering narcissists on. Far from it.
I am asking now that we have rehashed the narcs behaviours to death and all agree that they are bastards and abusers, what can we identify about the victims thinking and behaviour that needs to change so that they no longer accept this type of treatment? Do we have no responsibility in the relationship?
When will we accept that we are not victims but very much in control of our own happiness when we stop giving it away to them and accepting less for ourselves. Suffering is not noble, and I sure hope its not love.
There has been much emotional thinking expressed in the comments and rightly so, but we have to acknowledge this is what HG does and we cannot change him. Isnt the better focus to identify what can change for the better in the behaviours/thinking of the victims? Part of that is that you cannot change what you are not willing to acknowledge.
Narc Angel,
We can agree to disagree with the following:
1. The betrayal of trust is abuse
2. The fact that the abuser has been him/herself been subject to abuse:
– does not give him/her the right to abuse. NO.
-does not give him/her the right “ to apply repeated wrongs”. It explains to a certain extent why he /she does it but is NOT an excuse. NO.
– does not take away the wickedness of these behaviours, to intentionally harm another person.
3. Abuse is unacceptable under any circumstances.
4. Abuse is ALWAYS the abuser’s fault. Never the one that is abused. It is the abuser that DOES the wrong of abusing NOT the abused.
NarcAngel
Ok. I will posit my own opinion on this topic.
Based on my own experience and observations, I believe that fear of trusting our own instincts is often at the heart of why it takes us so long to break away from abuse.
Especially people who were raised with abuse often grow up doubting themselves (or also people who were raised by authoritarian caretakers – like a gymnast). When they feel they are being abused or tricked, lied to in some way, their first instinct is to doubt their own perceptions. “Surely he didn’t do that on purpose?” “ He couldn’t have really said that, could he?” And we all know that narcs give off contrary signals. Some horribly abusive behavior that we’re struggling to understand is followed by some apparently loving behavior or believable explanation.
It’s not always addiction to how the narcs make us feel in the golden period. It’s not always blind love. I think it’s often a fear of trusting our own instincts. And this is often made worse by well meaning (or not so well meaning) others who “poo-poo” off ours concerns and tell us we’re over-reacting. And that’s assuming we have shared our fears with someone else. More often victims stay quiet out of fear of sounding stupid or pathetic.
So, I go with “fear of trusting our own instincts” is why so many of us stay in abusive situations so long. Fear is not rational, but it is very powerful and difficult to get beyond. It often takes a lot of time and a lot of really obvious abuse before we can muster enough courage to escape. Until that point, we’re not willing victims, we’re victims trapped by fear.
NarcAngel,
To respond to your comment, I want to point out a few things. I don’t really want this to turn into a long-winded debate or try to refute what you’re saying. This is such a huge subject with many different aspects, and I don’t think it can be adequately argued within a few comments.
I’d just like to point out the following:
1. You say, “we have to acknowledge this is what HG does and we cannot change him”. Yes, this is true, however, because of the nature of the narcissistic entanglement, it takes empathic people (who have been led to believe they’re in a “loving” or romantic relationship) a fairly long time to finally come to this point of clear understanding and to fully accept it.
Hindsight is always 20/20. There have been many times on this blog that people have described that moment of full realisation and it was often an epiphany or a turning point. After this turning point, they see that they need to change their attitude and behaviour. Until that point in time though, an empathic person is still emotionally invested in trying to either fix or resurrect what they believe is a relationship that still has a chance of being improved.
2. To use a concept that HG often uses, I’m not sure if you’re really seeing this from an empathic person’s “perspective”. An empathic person is generally honest, persevering, hopeful and has the capacity to love and care. They believe in mutual happiness and don’t want to hurt their “loved” one. With this perspective, prior to becoming truly aware, an empathic person doesn’t (or cannot) suspect or believe that the person who claims to love them is also sadistically manipulating and deliberately deceiving them. It is a foreign concept to them. It’s not a case of “volunteering”. It’s a case of a totally different perspective. I think that, for an empathic person, it literally doesn’t compute that the person who supposedly loves them, is also deliberately abusing them. I think that’s why they don’t recognise it and see it clearly for what it is. It’s unrelatable and difficult to accept. That’s probably why narcissists are described in other-worldly terms such as evil, demonic, vampires, and monsters. It is difficult for an empathic person to grasp and acknowledge that this is just the way these humans are and there is no hope for change.
3. You say in such a matter-of-fact way that we have to accept that this is the way narcissists are and that they can’t change. Yet, you seem to think that an empathic person can just switch their own instinctive and innate empathic behaviours on and off like a light switch.
You are suggesting that if the empathic person can’t see that the narcissist is a narcissist and recognise their behaviours are manipulative and hateful, they must be blind or stupid or volunteering to be abused. No, it’s not as clear-cut as that. Just as a narcissist has instinctive and biological behaviours, so too does an empathic person. An empathic person is more capable of reflection and introspective self-analysis, but this doesn’t mean these things come easily or quickly. You are basically asking an empathic person to “change” their innate instincts and personality, while saying in a matter-of-fact way that the narcissist simply “can’t change”.
Why do you think that an empathic person can change so easily or that they can recognise the hateful behaviours so clearly if that is not the way an empathic person thinks? Why place so much responsibility on the shoulders of the empathic person? They are not only having their emotions played so that they’re tricked into believing they’re loved and wanted, they are also being gaslighted, abused and their self-worth is being systematically eroded. However, they’re expected to bounce back from it all unscathed with the full knowledge and responsibility of knowing how to recognise and avoid the abuse by the person who is insidiously doing all of this to them. And if they don’t, well, they should have known better. All the while, they’re also expected to “acknowledge” that their abuser simply “can’t change”. Meanwhile, a narcissist doesn’t have compassion or guilt, so they’re off the hook and free to abuse the next victim and the next, creating the same havoc again and again and again. I don’t think that’s fair at all, even though I KNOW that’s what happens.
In conclusion, I know that an empathic person needs to change in order to avoid being abused. I’m doing that myself right now. I just think it’s not a clear-cut case of saying that the empathic “victim” can simply choose whether or not they’re a victim or a volunteer. I think that attitude not only places an unfair onus and burden on empathic people, it also makes it easier for abusers to abuse.
Wisernow
You don’t want this to turn into a long-winded debate or try to refute what I’m saying.
You don’t think it can be adequately argued within a few comments.
And then you proceed to do exactly that by adding: I’d just like to point out the following:
Then you proceed to explain to me what an empath is and tell me that you’re not sure that I am seeing this from an empathic persons perspective. Funny that – because I AM an empath. So thanks for that.
Then incredibly you begin to manufacture things.
I DO NOT think nor have I ever said that empaths “can just switch their own instinctive and innate empathic behaviours on and off like a light switch”.
I DO NOT think “that if an empathic person cant see the narcissist is a narcissist and recognise their behaviours are manipulative and hateful, they must be blind or stupid or volunteering to be abused”.
I DO NOT think “that an empathic person can change so easily”.
It is YOUR interpretation that I place “so much” responsibilty on the shoulders of the empathic person. I believe we have some responsibilty for our behaviours and you seem to indicate we have none. That is a difference of opinion. Why is yours valid and not mine?
I DO NOT expect them to “bounce back from all of it unscathed with the full knowledge and responsibility of knowing how to recognize and avoid the abuse”.
I DO NOT believe “that if they don’t, well they should have known better”.
I DO NOT believe the narcissist is “off the hook and free to abuse the next victim and the next”.
I DO NOT expect a victim to “simply choose whether or not they are a victim or volunteer”.
In a previous post you paint me as cheering the narcissist on, that I find their tactics acceptable, imply that the empath is an idiot, that I think the narc has every right to abuse, that I give them a free pass, that the empath is ignorant or stupid. ALL WRONG.
Your interpretation is just that – your interpretation. Not fact.
You previously advised me that I come across as judgemental and might want to change my approach. It seems a little high-handed to think that you know best how to approach things and can suggest how others should conduct themselves when you have got it so monumentally wrong here. Especially in light of the fact that someone else has taken you to task for judging them (your exchange with Rachel on this thread). Maybe you would do well to point that finger back at yourself as well.
NarcAngel,
Wow, if this is your reaction to someone replying to your comments in an honest way, than I think I’ll simply refrain from replying to you from now on and just give you a wide berth. Seriously, what’s the point? You’re committed to misunderstanding and being defensive.
I still stand by everything I said. Going by your past comments, I think you normally feel very free to express yourself on this blog and have been quite outspoken in saying what you think. Why would you take it as an affront when someone else feels free to express themselves in a similar way?
Sorry, but you do come across as judgemental when discussing how empathic people “should” behave. Your first comment in this thread was that you find it hard to “stretch your empathy for the victim after falling for this more than once”. Many victims here have “fallen” for a lot of things more than once and it is understandable why and how they did. If you can’t relate to that, then fair enough, but as an empathic person, I would have thought that you could.
And no, I didn’t say that you might want to change your approach. I said that your “strong” approach sometimes creates equally strong reactions.
Again, regarding my comments with Rachel (and Valkyrie), there was a reason I said what I did. I have now responded to them to try and reach greater understanding about what was said.
Let’s just agree to disagree and go on our merry way. These misunderstandings are just escalating and I feel that they’re not benefiting anyone.
Feel free to think what you want to think NarcAngel. I won’t stand in your way.
Dear NarcAngel,
After a day or two of considering this article and our “conversation” in this thread, I’ve had a chance to consider it all with a clearer mind and less of an emotional reaction.
I am sorry for launching into what I can see was an attack on your views. I can see that my comments were judgemental about what you said and that I read more into your comment than you intended. I can see that I went about telling you my thoughts in a high-handed way. For that I am truly sorry. I will think better of it next time than to simply spell out my views in such a single-minded and overbearing way without taking into consideration your views.
After giving it some thought, I now see this article and in particular, my reaction to it, came at the end of a busy and quite stressful week for me. I’m not making excuses, I just want to explain. At the time of reading this article, I was already feeling quite stressed and on edge about other things. Then, after reading the article, my emotional thinking went into the “red zone”. I wasn’t calm or centred enough to think rationally or to see the educational point and merit of the article. I just saw the injustice, malice, injury and betrayal of trust in it and I “reacted” rather than “responded”.
Unfortunately, your comment escalated my reaction. You (and others) are generally free to express yourself. It is me who needs to have more insight into how and why I am going to respond. I can see that more clearly now.
So, in reality, I need to thank you in a way. Thank you for helping me see that my own instinctive emotional reaction may be “real” and “honest” but it doesn’t take into account the bigger picture and the views and personality of the person I’m speaking to. Also, it doesn’t help improve the immediate situation at hand (our conversation) if I can’t see and aren’t able to control my own emotional reaction.
WiserNow
Your comment displays your ability to take a step back and reflect (high emotional intelligence) and the traits of decency, understanding and caring are also present, as well as, a sincere apology.
No doubt about it, WiserNow, you are wired to be an empath.
Thank you dear K 🙂 You really are a gem! You say the nicest, most reassuring things.
Well, I believe you are definitely wired to be an empath too. Thank you again!
Thank you WiserNow!!!
You really are so sweet and nice! I am definitely wired to be an empath and I am cool with it now.
Thanks K 🙂 You should be. I think you’re a very cool empath 😉
You are welcome WiserNow!
And thank you, at first I was mad that I was an empath, now I just go with the flow.
Wisernow
Forgot to add:
By what could be offered to explain in that instance…
I meant what could he possibly have used as an excuse to turn up later empty handed when she was waiting on him for the ice (and more than once) that would explain away his lack of compassion and disregard of her.
Part of my anger, it is not against my narc. It is against myself for allowing it to happen when I knew something was wrong. That’s where I stopped being the victim and became a volunteer. The other part is when I naively told him and he knew he was hurting me and yet he didn’t let me go but by them I had been engulfed.
It takes 2 to tango. You can’t be snared and made a fool if you think with your head and not your clitoris abs g spot (my case) because it doesn’t matter how good sex is, if afterwards I am left alone and miserable. I speak for myself. I was a volunteer many many times and I do have to forgive myself because if I don’t, the time will come where he will be vulnerable and it will be a real test of character for me to not beat the dead horse. He is not HOOVERING but he will. And when he does I know my fangs and claws will he ready. Who will hold my leash then? Figuratively.
NA, Clarece’s response (below) to your first post said it all. Her age, her lack of dating experience, the gymnast lifestyle have a lot to do with her trusting an older, successful, father-like man to not be sabotaging her.
Victim or Volunteer as HG put it, would apply more to someone like yourself, to be wiser, not so gullible, to a narcissist.
No one deserves or volunteers for abuse. It is the abuser’s fault.
Should you go in a dark alley alone? Probably not. Do you deserve or volunteer for rape? No. If you went down the alley again and got raped did you deserve or volunteer for rape? No.
No one asks for horrible things to be done to them. The person responsible is the one committing the abuse.
I have rationalized all sorts of lies, hurtful behavior abuse, both mental and physical. It is hard to know how anyone would react in the midst of being abused. I personally was raised to be strong and avoid abusive men. But I was abused anyway.
The horrible act was committed by the abuser. Do not shame the victims for the abuse they suffered.
Also, she might have had her suspicions, but she was in love with him, which blinds us sometimes in rose colored glasses. That she was in love with a narcissist only amplifies and multiplies overlooking things that don’t make sense. N’est-ce pas?
Yeah Windstorm, my mother was an extremely authoritative gaslighter. Jesus, when I let loose on her I brought up the whole slapping me in the face issue which she denied ever even happened. Brilliant.
Anyway, I agree with what you said, the self-questioning issue is key.
In the medical field the first thing we learn is don’t blame the victim. I think this comment blames the victim for her abuser’s bad behavior.
Hmm…I take it as a serious contemplation with a reflection of her dark humor within it ; )
I actually have similar dark humor, btw, it just seems to appear intermittently within my mood cycle : P
I am in the healthcare field and sometimes I do blame the victim. Yes, I do. And I will continue to blame the victim when her lack of action, stupid inertia, hurts the truly innocent who has no choice but to endure the rape, the beatings, the miserable life she indirectly imposes by not leaving the narcissist.
I can’t help not blaming especially when
you have the same wife coming through the ER for the 50th time… refusing to press charges…. just this time it is different. she is not being brought in because she has a broken nose, broken arms, broken teeth and black eyes. This time she is carrying a dead child in her arms. An innocent child whose only fault was to wake up crying because her diaper was full.
Whose fault is that? Who needs to go to jail and get death penalty?
When does the victim become an enabler that because she is so fucked up in the head that she can’t think of her own child???? It happens more often than I like to admit. It makes me nauseated.
At some point we have to draw the line. We have to stop patting people on the back and help them to lick their wounds because if we don’t take responsibility, if we keep blaming the narcissist for lack of ice, there will never be ice. In fact, there will be no life to begin with… including the narcissist ‘s life.
I see what you mean, Kathy Mor. I was often furious with IPPS for being so passive/dumb while her H was out and about being a predator. She was abused, okay. But so was I. She cares mostly about the facade.
Kathy Mor
That was brave of you to point out given the climate here presently. Yes, there are sometimes consequences that arise from the understanding of others. Collateral damage that comes from well meaning and accepting people not wanting to shine too bright a light and allowing the victim to take their time, process it, and all of the other understanding and encouragement offered. Time. Time that allows their own situation to become worse, and in some cases children to be born, abused, and as you have pointed out and experienced the horror of seeing first hand – extinguished. I’m sorry that you have had to witness that and feel your frustration. That is not to say that people should not be supportive or encouraging, but my feeling is that pointing out how the victim is responding to things is not blaming – it is pointing out the consequences of their mindset and rationalising. Asking them to see their part. That they actually have a part and are capable of action. Not that it is their fault. Saying that I think it is the victims fault is a knee jerk emotional reaction and not correct. I will not be among those encouraging victims to take their time.
NA, I’m surprised at your response on this.
One factor that stood out to me this time rereading this story after substantial time, is HG saying there was a 10 + year age gap between he and Alex. She also was extremely naive and trusting and at the cusp of the age limit for these types of competitions.
I’m thinking this could mean she was between 18-22 years old and so then HG was 28-30????
This may have been Alex’s 1st adult relationship plus throw in some covert daddy issues. Traveling around the country for competitions means she spent years in her youth training daily and probably did not have much of a childhood pushing or being pushed in this direction. I know this from being on the dance competition circuit with my daughter for 4 years and seeing what the older girls turn into. I also saw it on the gymnastics side with my daughter’s best friend who did comps for 6 years and her mom pulled her out due to not wanting her to miss more of just regular school life. These girls live and breathe their training and competition life.
HG came on the scene, travelling with her, nurturing her, and encouraging her. Of course being young and inexperienced with relationships she will implicitly trust.
100% victim here. I hope her knee fully recovered and she could return in some capacity being a trained athlete if that is what she wanted.
Hearing this makes me very nervous that HG would tamper with someone’s medicine if they had a condition over time if he suffered some injustice not like being served dessert first at a dinner party. I’d view that as criminal behavior.
I would hardly lower myself to do that over dessert. Now, if it was in relation to the starter, well that’s another matter altogether.
I don’t understand, “in relation to the starter”, HG. Please elaborate. I don’t want to misunderstand this answer.
It was a joke.
Not. Fucking. Funny.
Clarece, the appetizer for those of us in the US. HG was being funny.
For what it’s worth, I didn’t read NAs comment as blaming the victim. I took it as a bit of her dark humor.
MB
No. In this case there was no humour.
Sorry I misunderstood NA. As bad as I feel for Alex on this occasion, it does get worse for her as I recall.
HG, how about roll out the trophy mangling story and backyard fire. Show them what a grade A bastard you can really be. Better yet, how about the one where you knock the girl down on the track with your running cleat because she won’t speak to you.
Sundays are my favorite days on the blog. Except for the occasional Free for all Fun Fuel Friday.
Oh I enjoyed those stories. I always thought of Alex for being a dumb door for leaving her stuff behind but now that I see how young she was, I understood it better. She clearly had no sense of who she was dealing with. Especially things like that are the things you don’t expect from older men… but hey ! My narc would do worse so….
Trust in naive people is like blood to the shark….
MB
I thought it was dark humor also. I thought she was making a joke.
Clarece, here is a thought on why NA didn’t react the same as others. I could be way off though. I think many of us read these stories and put ourselves in the situation. We think of Alex as ourself and what we would do in this situation. Some of us are hard on ourselves. My first thought was why didn’t she get ice? This is what I would have done. I didn’t feel empathy toward Alex (me) because I thought it was dumb she didn’t find a way to get ice. Now let’s say that Alex is my daughter. I’d feel anger, pain, disbelief that someone could be that cold.
Something that came to mind when reading this was my kid’s dad. After having my second baby he picked me up at the hospital. He took me home and dropped me off in the driveway. I had bags from the hospital, a newborn, a 18 month old that wanted to be held and 2 flights of stairs. We didn’t sit in the driveway all day waiting for him to come back and help. I was 20. I think back and I don’t feel empathy for that girl because I made it through and im stronger for it. Now put one of my daughters or one of their sweet 20 year old friends in that same situation and id be overwhelmed with empathy.
Mercy
There are actually a few reasons and some of them I put in my lengthy post to Wisernow, but you raise a good point here and thank you for trying to see it from another angle. I’m sorry that happened to you and none of it was your fault. I think people forget that I was a victim also. One that had no choice in the matter. When you think about it, my mother may not be viewed as the primary abuser, but what’s worse? A mother that abuses you or one that allows someone else to abuse you? Good thing its not a contest – no winners there. I had plenty of opportunity to observe them both and my primary focus was on him as the abuser, but as time went on I had to question her behaviours also. Do I think she (or we for that matter) deserved it? No, but lots of damage was done anyway. She finally left after we were all gone (but she still let him control her) and I wonder what was finally the straw? Why could she not do it sooner and spare us all? Whenever I asked (then or now) why do/did you refuse to see or do anything back then when I know that you did see? I ask her nicely and tell her I am not blaming her but trying to understand. She will not answer except to get angry and tell me that she has had enough guilt in her life and doesnt need anymore thank you and the matter is closed. Well so much for the rest of us making any sense of it then. How dare I ask her any questions- she was a victim you know.
Narc Angel
One of the hardest moments in my life was when my son asked me why I never left his father. I didn’t feel safe and so I didn’t want to answer this question.
Regardless of the why for me I couldn’t shift the blame, which I wanted to lay it all at his fathers feet. I had to be brutally truthful and not “listen” to the comfortable lies I created to stay “honest”.
Those first conversations were hard, today we can speak about things. He has taught me much from his perspective of the abuse he sustained and I taught him things from my perspective.
I am sorry your mother will not speak of things.
Narc angle I can relate to a certain extent with your mom. I am just now trying to sort out my childhood and the effect it has on me as an adult. My mother wasn’t the abuser either but she was very depressed and not aware of what was going on around her. I’m finding now that although I have sympathy for what she struggled through I also have anger for the neglect. My Mom passed away 7 years ago of cancer. Before she died we got a chance to say things that needed to be said. She told me she was sorry for my childhood. I was taken off guard because at that time I never blamed her. I knew she was sick with depression. Now that I’m trying to sort things out in my head I realize how much that apology means to me. I also see your frustration with your Mom refusing to acknowledge the situation.
My point is that I think when you have a mother daughter relationship like ours, we as the daughters are aware that we do not want to go down that road. We want to be stronger than they were and we know how easy it would be to give in to the depression or look the other way when it’s too hard to face what’s happening in front of us. Like I said before, we are much harder on ourselves. There are times when readers respond and I question my empathy. I’m pretty sure I told HG in a consultation last year that I’m not an empath but I know I was wrong. I think some of us are just rough around the edges but we are all made from the same stuff.
Mercy,
that’s an interesting thought. I relate because there are SO MANY times I would not feel empathy for myself in a situation for the same reason you describe and would feel tons for someone else. I’ve wondered about that. Good insight. It interests me because I think it is a way we have of processing experiences and information, from our point of view and then from an external one.
Nunya biz, yes exactly! I think HG has even written about empaths are able to put ourselves in in someones place in order to feel what they feel. Or feel how we would feel in that situation.
I find that I do this all the time to understand how someone feels.
NA, that actually sounds exactly like something my mother would say.
Ah, Mercy I’d like to read more on it, sometimes I’ve got to go over what I’ve already read too as stuff sinks in and changes shape.
Me too, I can do the “leave my body” thing pretty easily I think.
I don’t think she was aware…….
I’m not really taking sides as to whether Alex was a victim or volunteer but as I was reading this article it occurred to me that HG often highlights a particular isolated manipulation as an example of his past behaviours – but the reality is none of these manipulations happen in isolation but as one of a host of manipulations (the isolation of just one does make for a more impactful story telling)…I remember towards the end of my entanglement that I was so stressed, distracted and beyond worn out that behaviours or statements that were clearly abusive or manipulative on the part of my narc just received a matter of fact response from me – partly, as I didn’t have the presence of mind to actually care anymore about things that I should have questioned or objected to.
WhoCares
Very good point! Devaluation is a barrage of abuse that overwhelms us and makes clear thinking impossible.
Thank-you, Windstorm. ‘Barrage’ is such an excellent word choice in this case.
Hello WhoCares! I think you raise a very important observation that HG highlighted a specific manipulation in his relationship with Alex which was the withholding of ice to help her injured knee.
Along with Kelfairly above saying, “her age, her lack of dating experience, the gymnast lifestyle have a lot to do with her trusting an older, successful, father-like man to not be sabotaging her.”
We are all focusing on the isolated act of HG getting rid of ice in the house when Alex needed to treat her injured knee from a competition or that he specifically told her he’d leave to pick some up only to disappear on her while he banged new love interest Mary.
This was sprinkled in between HG still charming her and using circular conversations to confuse her which with the age difference she most certainly, being naive, is going to keep conceding to him to keep peace if she thinks she’s in love with him.
Another point, for the sake of brevity, HG probably used withholding ice as the key element to showcase a manipulation. One of not showing support. One of demonstrating that a malignant, sadistic narc will go so far to harm the health or physical recovery of their significant other. He may have only done this on two occasions spread over several weeks to which it never blipped on Alex’s radar enough to call a halt to the relationship.
Also, the majority of people and especially athletes can always create a makeshift cold compress if need be. Alex can take a wet washrag, stick it in a ziplock bag, throw it in the freezer for an hour and walla, she has a cold compress. I don’t think the night HG went out to get the ice, Alex sat there the whole time wringing her hands waiting for his return. I’m sure she found something in the freezer to make due until HG was supposed to come back. My daughter just recently fractured her ankle in dance class and we held a bag of frozen chicken nuggets on it while we were waiting for a fresh ice cube tray to freeze for her. It’s not rocket science.
Do you think HG walked in the door coldly announcing he decided to visit his friend Mary instead. Oh no, no, no. He probably had a blow by blow timeline of events from witnessing a car crash, getting stuck at a train crossing, running into an old friend that talked his head off in the store…. whatever, he gave her any song and dance to avoid accountability and be off the hook.
That is why, the victim sticks around and gets conditioned down with this salami slicing behavior for such long stretches of time.
Thank-you Clarece. I definitely agree that multiple factors would be at play…including HG’s charm and ability to deflect questions about any lack of support towards Alex…if she confronted him; he would just say well, didn’t I drive you to all your competitions, etc…
I also agree that this article best demonstrates your point:
“that a malignant, sadistic narc will go so far to harm the health or physical recovery of their significant other”
*And* it also best demonstrates what polarized views people can hold towards the victim and the victim’s role.
Well put Clarece.
Somehow I’ve missed this one before. Great example of a narcissist just doing what they have to do in order to punish if they are not the primary focus. They are simply being who they are.
Great reminder to me of the 100% chance of lifelong harm should I volunteer to be entangled with a narcissist.
HG, how much longer were you with her after the injury?
I don’t recall.
Hi 12345
I’m sorry to read how you were affected by recent news of your previous narc. Glad to see however that you thought to return here to get it out and sort through it. Wishing you peace.
NA
I’ve missed you NA. It’s gonna be ok. I’m wondering if I’m getting all the grief(?) and emotion out now and that death, when it comes, will be a relief? I don’t know. I’m just trying not to stuff it down. I want this poison out of me for good.
Also, there is no where else to go but here😂 HG and people like you are the only people that get it!
💔 to cause someone to emotionally and physically suffer.