For The Sake of Argument


Would you like to know what is going through my mind when we argue? Thought you would.

I do enjoy an argument. I love to start a squabble, a contretemps and escalate it to a quarrel through to an altercation, a fight ! By now I am sure you have realised that the reason I do this is twofold. First, I am provoking an emotional reaction from you which gives me fuel. Secondly, it enables me to put you in your place and control you by being abusive towards you. I keep it within the realms of stinging and barbed verbal abuse but there are those of my brethren who do like to let their fists do the talking. That is not my style but we cannot shy away from the truth of what is being done in the name of “a discussion”.

I know from experience and also from reading numerous comments and observations that you regard arguing with me akin to banging your head against a brick wall. You cannot understand the stance we adopt in an argument. Surely we must recognise that what we are saying makes no sense? Do we not realise that our position lacks logic? I will endeavour to enlighten you. I recognise two types of argument. The first is created by me. The second is created by you. What they both have in common is you are at fault.

In the first type I generate an argument out of nothing. You find this disorienting and confusing. In fact,I will often do this after we have just done something delightful together (throwing you from a height is all the more delicious – see Get Ready To Drop). I will invent some offence (why did you just look at that man across from us, when you did not) or I will seize on something utterly trivial (thanks for taking that last drop (and it was a drop) of the sauvignon blanc). I will level the accusation at you. You will at first be stunned because everything was going swimmingly. You will then be perplexed as my accusation is either untrue or so minor to be negligible. Why is he getting so het up over nothing? Indignance will then rise inside you as your inner self questions whether you are just going to sit and take this unjust accusation. I am shouting at you now and you either run away or fight back. It might go something like this.

“Oh thanks for taking the last of the wine, I wanted that. I have hardly had any.”

“Sorry? There was only a drop left.”

“But you didn’t ask me if I wanted it did you?”

“I didn’t think to, there was just a dribble.”

“You didn’t think? That’s the trouble with you. You never think.”

“Oh come on, besides you’ve had plenty of wine anyway.”

“Are you saying I have a drink problem?”

“Woah, where did that come from?”

“You. You are always doing this. You do something selfish and then turn it into an attack about me. Just because you cannot stand for someone to point out when you have done something wrong.”

“Good God, what are you talking about?”

“That’s it, try to dismiss me when I am making a valid point.”

“I only poured a drop of wine into my glass. It is not big deal. Here, if it troubles you so much, have what is left in my glass.”

“No, it’s too late. The damage is done. You are trying to make light of when I am pointing something out to you.”

“This is ridiculous.”

“Oh I am ridiculous am I, well that’s rich coming from someone who drinks a bottle, at least one, a day.”

“Where do you get that from? No I don’t.”

“Yes you do. I am concerned about your drinking, have you ever considered getting some help?”

And on it goes.

When I start an argument like this I am not interested in proving what I am saying is correct. I am already right in my mind. You should note that ‘right’ and ‘correct’ are not necessarily the same thing. The whole purpose of this type of argument is for me to upset you and turn an otherwise pleasant experience into a horrible one. This is about exerting control so that you become wary about upsetting me. Next time you will always ensure you offer to pour me a glass of wine before tending to yourself for fear of causing an argument. Of course,, the next time I will be arguing about how you took the last profiterole instead even though I had eaten five more than you already.

The second type of argument is where you level a complaint or accusation at me. Invariably what you say is correct and you have valid grounds for raising it. You will also do so in a calm and level-headed fashion because that is your style. When you do this I do not hear what you are actually saying to me. The validity of your argument is meaningless to me. The piece of paper that documents your point may as well be written in Sanskrit for all the notice I will take of it. All I hear is you criticising me and I hate that. I absolutely hate it. How dare someone like you, who is inferior to someone like me, have the audacity to suggest I have done something wrong. I do not hear your words, I do not see the video recording you are playing back, all I hear is an unjust and scathing attack on me. Your words are drowned out by the raging fire that surges through me. The noise of the flames renders me deaf to your cool logic. I will deflect, deny and launch my own attacks (usually predicated on inventions) in order to beat you back. I am not interested in the correctness of what is being argued about. I am only interested in stopping the burning sensation I feel from your criticism and to do that I have to extinguish you. This is when I lose control and lash out. I will hurl savage insults at you and I will smash items of property (in my mind I am smashing you, just another object in front of me when I do this) and some of my kind will engage in physical violence. You will try to make me see that I am wrong (any healthy person would do this) and you are utterly flabbergasted as to why I cannot see what you are saying to me. Now you know. I cannot see because of the fiery rage that has erupted.

How do you deal with me in these two types of argument? Well, I am saving that information for another time. In the meanwhile, see if you can piece together that ornament I just have hurled against the wall.


109 thoughts on “For The Sake of Argument”

  1. Clarece and Windstorm
    Thank you both for responding. I cant think of two better people due to our time together on the blog, and in having a general understanding of each others background and different positions in the narc/empath relationship (for lack of a better word). I am absorbing what you have both written and it has offered some explanation but also raised further questions. I respect you both so please know that what I say is not to provoke or cause blame or injury, but to understand. As always, if it is too personal, you are not comfortable with the conversation, or simply choose not to answer, I understand and will respect that.

    I guess part of the reason its hard for me to see is because of my vantage point (both as a child and now). I do think my mother had me to have something to love and also to hold onto my birth father. She was 17 and also birth control was not readily available in a small town without everyone knowing. Didnt work-he went with someone else and had a child. Ok. She meets someone else and we move in with him. Yup. Pregnant soon after (a brother). Not sure why the rush. Then he leaves us to go back with his wife. Enter StepNarc. There is abuse before she is ever pregnant and I can now rationalize (its a stretch) as an adult that she may have thought it would bring them closer if she gave him a child (which is puzzling because he had nothing to do with us and nor did she have time for us now). There were many miscarriages but two children resulted. Each time his treatment of her and us got worse. Even as a child I could see this was insane. She could not even make me a sandwich and I was looking after the children while she worked, slept, or looked after SN. Birth control was readily available now. I was furious at her adding children. If I could see it why could she not? was my question both then and now. This is not specific to my situation either. I have worked with many women who will piss and moan about their husband not helping out or being absent, (found cheating in some cases) with them shouldering all of the responsibility and then they get pregnant again, have the baby, and then act shocked to find that the husband once again is not helping out or leaves. Huh? It’s a pattern I see time and again. They saw this happened to others. Is it denial then? I’m so special that will not happen to me? Or do they not care and think I’m having a child because I want one regardless the outcome (which is where the selfish part comes in from my view).

    I can see Windstorm your point about never seeing a loving marriage and thinking thats normal, and that a man who works and contributes and interacts is the best that is expected so she accepts that, but not when there is already discord or abuse (verbal being right up there with physical) and also when there has already been infidelity. There are many situations like this and I dont understand adding children. When you say however, that it’s unreasonable to deny yourself a family because they wouldnt have a perfect life, my response is: I dont expect perfection, and I’m being completely honest when I say that that sounds selfish. If the father is already proven to be a dick in not helping so that you are tired (and the complete list of other reasons that are given for women not thinking clearly in a situation with a narc or even just a regular asshole) he has already been found to be cheating (comes home most nights did make me chuckle), what is it that says to the woman: Yup. Im going to do it anyway? Does that feeling of wanting a child (which I admittedly don’t understand and why I’m asking) override any rationale of what you are offering the child and bringing them into (volatility, indifference, no demonstration of a loving parental unit, absence of one parent?). Is it an entirely emotional decision that they then try to apply logic to after? (the father should be attentive, loving, helpful, non-abusive even though he was not before). I really am trying to understand how they can think its beneficial to the child, which I originally thought to be the focus, until I suspected it might not be.

    Sorry for the length. Haven’t even got to Clareces points yet if she still wants me to continue.

    1. NarcAngel
      I understand your viewpoint. My situation was not like you described and Piano Man’s wife’s may not be either.

      My Pretzel came home every single night for over 30 years. He always had a good job and signed all his paychecks straight over to me (probably because he didn’t want to fool with paying the bills and shopping lol!). Never even any wiff of him having an affair or other women.

      No man I knew helped out with housework or childcare, so while it would have been wonderful, I didn’t really expect it. There was no physical abuse and I was in my late 30’s before I realized what verbal/psychological abuse was and that everyone didn’t just have to put up with it (everyone i knew did).

      From my point of view, he really was a good husband. He might not have changed diapers or been responsible to babysit (he wouldn’t watch them), but he usually listened to me and had good advice when I needed it. He was smart, well educated, logical with a great sense of humor. He worked hard to provide a good home and we never lacked for essentials. I never once would have traded him for a helpful, loving but not very smart husband. I thanked God that I had such an intelligent and resourceful one. I might not have gotten my way in arguments, but at least I could trust that when we differed, his way would still work.

      Based on my best knowledge at the time, our home was a good place to bring in children. I certainly wanted them for my own happiness, and he wanted them for his legacy. It wasn’t ideal by a long shot, but I have never felt it was a mistake or just selfish on my part. All our children have turned out well, have college degrees and all are very close to both of us.

    2. Hi NA! I would very much like to hear your questions or observations on my response to you being that I shared some pretty personal family examples.
      With your response to WS, I sense your perspective is coming from the place where you were witnessing, hearing and living daily with extreme verbal, emotional and physical abuse and watching your mother wither into a shell just functioning each day. Some of these family situations are not with abuse to that extent. Piano Man is just a spineless whimp who wants to chase tail on the side. On the other side of the token, he may be very engaged with “fun” things with their daughter and he may be like my ex-husband was which is the crowd pleaser always needing to make people laugh and entertain. I would not say my ex husband is a Narc. I think I’ve discovered that he has higher narc traits on the spectrum but that is factored in with the other issues he had from abuse. I don’t consider myself a victim from my marriage. I co-parent relatively well with him for my daughter. It’s fine. Not great. Not bad. But there are others who have it waaaaay worse.
      So I think for some, a spouse not carrying their weight with the housework, chores, etc., a lot of times gets written off as just the cons of being with that person and the spouse tries to outweigh it with the pros. Just a different perspective. You are being most considerate in how you are asking so I completely know you are just trying to understand.
      One thing I can tell you that changed after having my daughter and giving birth to her, you can never anticipate ahead of time the bond and connection you feel to this new little human that is also part of you. All the experiences you didn’t get to have with your mom, you get to make those adventures, those memories, what’s important to you happen. It’s a whole new beginning. Albeit you don’t get to be a kid again with your mom looking over you, but that new, building relationship with your child is emotionally massive in the best way. It’s no longer what was taken from you during your childhood. You now get back unconditional love for a new chapter in your life.
      I have a very close girlfriend of about 18 years. When I was struggling with infertility, I was lucky in not having to take hormone shots or any of that but still had to deal with invasive tests and then Insemination procedures, had one miscarriage, yadda yadda… so I went thru spells of just wanting to give up. She told me one day, if I really couldn’t take it anymore, she would be a surrogate for me. She has 3 girls (now grown) and she told me “MLA, if anyone should be a mother it has to be you. I don’t want you to miss out on motherhood. I will gladly carry a child for you since that part is easy for me.” I didn’t end up needing her to, but that meant the world to me to keep me trying and she was so right. My strongest, best relationship is with my daughter. So it’s sad to me in a way when the past abuse causes one to make a decision not realizing you may be cutting out the most meaningful relationship you could have in your life.

    3. NarcAngel
      I wrote one response already about my personal situation, which I personally don’t think is what you are describing. It’s really impossible to determine why people make choices we wouldn’t make. It’s hard enough to understand our own. Ha, ha!

      The urge to have a child can be very strong. And when you say all abuse should be considered including verbal, remember that you’re judging that with the benefit of hindsight. Almost all of us who have been in abusive relationships with narcs had a period where we lived in confusion. We didn’t recognize the inexplicable behavior of our partners as abuse. Many of us are just now becoming aware, maybe in our 40’s or 50’s. We’ve already had our children. Maybe we would make different decisions if we were making them now, but the past can’t be changed.

      I personally viewed marriage as a necessary evil. I needed a husband for many reasons and one of those was to father children. I saw marriage with my Pretzel as my best option. I have never felt in the last 45 years that I chose poorly. I still believe he was my best available choice. Many women I know were not so fortunate.

      Many women ended up, thru whatever circumstances, with real losers. I don’t for one minute believe they wanted a loser. They just made poor choices, or maybe their options were really limited. Often they just didn’t know better. They were doing the best they could in a tough situation.

      I don’t think it was selfish for them to want to share their life and love with children of their own. It’s easy for us to judge them now, but often they were just children themselves, like your mom was with you. And honest to God, a lot of them just felt that was how life is. They didn’t think about bringing a child into abuse. They were just bringing one into the world. Maybe the only world they’d ever known themselves.

      I try not to judge and that is often hard. But we can never really know what another person’s situation and options were, especially long in the past.

      1. I love this response WS! I could not have said it better. For women marrying young or starting to have their kids that young (17 – 23) what point of reference do they have except that of their own family experiences and environment where they live to go by to make choices. So many probably dreamed of a family life much different than what it ended up being.

        1. True, Clarece.

          It’s like one of my Pretzel MnM’s favorite sayings, “never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity.” Of course that’s a harsh way to say it. But certainly if you’re talking about non-narcs, most harmful actions – whether to themselves or others- were done out of ignorance or delusion.

          For instance, we’ve been talking about women choosing to have children because they wanted them, but in my experience most children were not planned at all. They’re just “sent by God.” Of course I live in an area where sex ed is taboo. Even today girls end up pregnant as early as 13 and only learn later why it happened.

          I’d be hesitant to ever blame a teenager for getting pregnant. Not only might she not know what causes pregnancy or how to prevent it, she may think it’s just the inevitable lot of women. Even if she wants the baby, like you said her dreams of what family life will be like may be completely unrealistic and no way for her to know this.

  2. I started following you on fb first but I just came searching for your WordPress. The accuracy in which these things happened in my actual life are frightening. I always said I feel like I’m in the twilight zone right now. I am a textbook empath, a narcs favorite, I know. Gas lighting ran a muck, unchecked. I’m 3 months removed from the relationship and I cannot believe the level in which I allowed myself to be emotionally abused and manipulated. He was really good. A master even!! Thank you for these articles. They have given me such insight and an understanding of what to look out for and run the hell away from

  3. hey Fuel on the Shelf I found your story inspiring. Keep the no contact. I think that you should create a fake account of a guy (lock it up so nobody can tell its fake.) and like the guys photos and have the acocunt like yours back. Have great online public conversations together. Fuck with your narc. he is probably spying on you.

    1. No. FOTS’ emotional thinking is far too high and this exercise would amount to engagement (as she is thinking of the narcissist when doing this) and it is more likely to provoke hoovers which will impact on her attempt to go no contact. All FOTS should be doing is imposing and maintaining a solid no contact regime – she is not in a position to ‘fuck with the narc’ because this will run contrary to her best interests.

      1. For a little while I considered creating a fake Instagram account to troll his IPPS and see what she was posting but her page is private and on Instagram you have to approve follow requests if that is the case. I decided not to because it would be too much to maintain some fake page (I would have made a “fan page” for something she enjoys) but part of me also thinks that he controls her social media platforms anyway so what is the point?

        Rambling aside for the advice HG gave (and the other reasons above) I decided not to go the “fake social media” route.

      2. I wanted to reply again to the part where HG says making a fake persona to give myself attention is likely to prevent hoovers. How can you be so sure? If he is already ignoring me why would he care if I got attention from someone else, whether it be real attention (haha I wish) or fake attention that I create? Also how can you even be sure he is spying on me anyway? He unfollowed me for a 6 month period before re-following me again. To me that seems to indicate it is more about the mind fuck in the impulsive moment rather than long term spying.

          1. Ooops, thank you for pointing that out. I know what you meant HG. Mis-typed on my part, I meant to say “provoke” not prevent. . That line should have said I do not see how making a fake persona to give myself attention would “provoke” hoovers…

          2. HG, do you have confidence that you could help FOTS if she were to audio consult? It may take more than one? You know where I’m going with this.

      3. FOTS. Don’t do that. It’s not her fault. I have been both ipps and ipsss and ipps is hell. I am so thankful I escaped and didn’t marry Narc 1

        I feel for this poor woman. Because of the kids, she will never be free if this asshole. Never. God I feel for her

      4. HG, this reply to AS re Gabby gets my respect. You did well to simplify the issue and support actions that are in her best interests.
        I like this aspect of your character. I don’t fully understand it, but I like it nevertheless.
        I am impressed with a man using his power and intelligence for good.

  4. To any one cheating with a married man or woman
    If you are so empathetic why is it that you are not considering their partners or how this would make them feel
    Cheating is not ok for anyone and if you believe the lies about why he is cheating and that he / she loves you you seriously need to take a look at yourself because truly being an empathetic person is not selective to just who you are attracted to and if you can not understand what you are doing is wrong then you are not an empath

    1. Veronique…..I get it, I do. I would never purposely seek out someone who is married. He is the one who ghosted himself into my life (before intermittently ghosting himself out and then in some more). I believe HG wrote an article about this which made so much sense to me when I read it. I still struggle to even recall how I got to this point I am at now.

    2. Amen, a true empath could not conduct an affair with a known married person. There is no greater harm than a betrayal of that nature to a spouse.

  5. OH MY…….
    My x used those exact words “You never think, do you…..” and he did the same thing….created fights over nothing.
    I could be in a car – travelling 5 minutes up the road to see his parents – he would create a row out of nothing in 1 minute.
    Have been NC since February. Now divorcing him.

  6. You must BLOCK him on all media, your phone, your FB, your gmail, EVERYTHING. Don’t look back, listen to HG. Clearly none of the people he plays with mean anything to him, especially his newborn child. Do not subject yourself to be one of his toys. You deserve better. The only way to be free is no contact. Don’t look. Don’t have your friends look, and tell them NOT TO TELL you if they do. Hold your head up and respect yourself for a change. When you accept what you are attracted to is but an illusion of his making, you can set yourself free!!!!

  7. The arguments with my mid-range elite half sister were always started by her. Whenever I raised an issue with her she just denied or said that she was just joking or I’m too sensitive or that she was just depressed but it didn’t become an argument because I just let it go. With my lesser victim mom the arguments happened both ways.

  8. I share children with my ex husband . So he has a new GF a.k.a IPPS . We met she kept talking about their rocky relationship so I was just acting neutral like I don’t know if you realize what you are dealing with and off course I don’t need anymore headaches because off that lunatic person .

    When we had time together alone she kept talking and asking me how he was with me , how he is so Nice to me and talks highly about me . I got so tired and told her he is a NARCISSIST! She looked at me shocked says to me I KNEW IT ! .

    The first thing we agreed on where the never ending no where going all made up switched up something super personal turnend into a blow right back at you arguments wooo so draining ! .

    But I started to trust you H.G. Evenmore almost everything I’ve read of your work he does it to her aswell so I got my confirmation that there was really nothing what I’ve could done to make my first marriage last .

  9. My narcissist never started fights of any kind, if I confronted him about his odd behavior he would spin some bizarre tale about all the mental issues he had and burst into tears and blame it on medications becoming ineffective. He disappeared and would say he was hospitalized or asleep and his (fake)sister would send the police for a wellness check because he wouldn’t show up for work for days. All made up.

    Or he would tell yet another story regarding abuse and neglect he suffered as a child in foster care and how it made it difficult to trust and connect in relationships. He could rattle off names of drugs like a pharmacist, he was on meds for anxiety, depression, PTSD, HPD, and ADHD. He was able to explain his inconsistent behavior by claiming he had all these issues. Over time, he would tell me about another diagnosis he had…he seemed completely normal and well adjusted when we met!😂

    Truth was, he grew up in a normal middle class family and I don’t think he was on any medication. His inconsistencies of course were due to his balancing act of his enormous web of lies.

    H.G- without any traumatic childhood abuse, what is your theory regarding why someone develops into a Narcissist? I always told him he should have his brain scanned, I knew something was not quite right. I would love to know your thoughts regarding the brain activity imaging going on to study your kind.

    H.G.-it took me a long time to find you…um, not a criticism, but have you considered connecting your online presence with the term sociopath? Researching sociopathy I did not come across any of your stuff; I found enough to help me get a grip, but your platform would have really benefited me had I found it sooner. Your hoovering advice has sure been helpful. I know you are diagnosed a Narcissistic Sociopath, but my understanding was ALL Sociopaths are also narcissists but not all narcissists are sociopaths. My ex husband is a Narcissist but not a sociopath. My ex boyfriend was both and he was the one who led me to becoming educated.

    In Gratitude

  10. Damn I have been in these type of arguments before but just not as long I guess I know what I am ensnared with then

  11. Are you in my mind again?

    This is precisely the confusing bullshit that I was dealing with about 2 weeks ago!

    Me: (I had just “liked” 2 pics on his Facebook page)

    Text message from him not even 5 minutes later, at 5am in the morning mind you: “Stop stalking my FB, please”

    Me: “I am sorry?”

    Him: “It is okay. But you are getting too close again and I am getting uncomfortable again”

    Me: “It was only 2 pictures! But okay if you’d rather me not like stuff then I won’t….”

    Him: “I am not upset but you are OBSESSED”

    Me: “That is a bit much to say, I disagree…”

    Him: “You can disagree all you want but it is 1000% the truth. You are totally OBSESSED with me Gabrielle! And I am weak when it comes to my sexual vices, I should have put my foot down and said no to you last night. But you did not respect my wishes and that was not fair”

    (he was in one of his “I do not wanna have sex with you” moods, but he did anyway, like usual)

    It then turned into our sexual indulgence being MY fault but as soon as I apologized (like always) he says…. “Thank you for owning your behavior. I need to do the same.”

    Me: “I guess you are going to ask me for a break again. You always do this….”

    Him: “I am not abandoning you okay? But next time we see each other you need to be more respectful of my wishes!”


    What is the point of picking a fight with me if you’re not upset or mad about the FB likes? Oh yes, the need to project the guilt and shame I suppose?

    And again with the “I am not abandoning you”. I never use that word with him ever but as soon as I begin to TRY and VERIFY that he wants a break he immediately says he is not abandoning me!


    Thanks for letting me vent.

    1. FOTS, he is conditioning you down and training you with every one of these ridiculous conversations. Why on earth would you ever apologize to him at this point?
      Owning up to not respecting his wishes? Wtf?!!
      Inserting the word “abandoning” knowing you will accommodate whatever fucked up instruction he texts you to meet his comfort zone because he knows that word triggers your subconscious. He’s trying to accuse you are obsessed…I would have completely turned that around and said he is completely overreacting over 2 social media likes since his d*ck wasn’t feeling any shame or hindrance inside you a week ago.
      I know you are not going to go No Contact. Like at all. You seen hellbent to go to your grave taking his crumbs and salvage some kind of contentment in that. But for the love of your children, stand up to him and stop just falling at his feet.

      1. Oh don’t get me wrong here, I haven’t reached out to him since that conversation. I don’t plan to and I don’t want to. I’ve been angry AF for the last almost 2 weeks. Tomorrow it’ll be exactly 2 weeks of silence since our last visit (and that bullshit conversation that took place afterwards) which is not much time. But fuck, it’s better than nothing.

        His son was born 5 days ago. The only reason I know is because I looked at her Facebook page and saw she updated her profile picture (to a pic of her holding the baby). Aside from that, her page is locked down pretty much.

        He has not made ANY social media announcement whatsoever about the birth of his son; his Facebook is a ghost town. His Facebook is usually a splash of color with his family facade. I find this sudden shift of behavior weird and sickening. He hasn’t blocked me as I can still see everything else on his page so I’m not sure if he has me on some sort of privacy filter. Or if he just isn’t sharing the news. He has also hidden his friends list from showing up on his page.

        I thought for a (fleeting moment) to reach out and congratulate him on his son but since he did not make a formal announcement to me privately or on his FB page the last thing I need is a continuance of that prior conversation. If “liking” 2 pics earns me the “obsessed” epitaph then I’m sure creeping on his wife’s FB page when he wants to keep the baby news quiet is a bigger Neddy no-no (stupid obscure Simpsons reference) 🤦🏻‍♀️

        Bottom line is I have not reached out to him in about two weeks and I really don’t fucking want to. Back on the wagon. Again. Baby steps. Again. 😒

        1. Two weeks is a start. Keep it up. That is rather disgusting that he did not announce the birth of his second child on social media. That is one of the biggest life events that any parent is proud to share.
          I fear, one of the other readers who would suggest she thinks Piano Man is juggling more than you on the side is correct. He doesn’t want to deal with anyone getting so upset that they come forward and spill the tea to his wife. It really does make no sense. And what a pathetic move for a second time father to not share such a special occasion.

          1. Clarece,
            Agreed on all counts. I never wanted to entertain the notion that he was/is juggling more than me on the side but now it certainly seems suspicious to not announce the birth. From the time he told me he was pregnant there was never any mention of it on FB at all, which I find odd but now that the baby is here and still no mention of it? Yeah, super odd. My mind keeps wondering if maybe he’s just too caught up with sunshine and rainbows of golden period 3.0 OR if he is freaking the fuck out of keeping possible multiple lives separate. I am sure that I cannot be the only one who is secretly questioning his motives.

          2. I’m betting on freaking out to keep multiple lives separate and also much less freedom while he will be needed at home much more with a newborn.

      2. “I’m betting on freaking out to keep multiple lives separate and also much less freedom while he will be needed at home much more with a newborn.”

        My other idea was “fuel crisis” in regard to your second point. A tangent of being needed more around the house much more with a newborn.

        It still baffles my mind how there have been nothing on social media. Nothing. Nada. He has always prided himself in boasting posts with pics of him and his daughter for the longest while. (never any of his wife though)…I naturally assume he’d relish in the attention. And on that note, doesn’t he realize how odd his silence must look to the 1,600 or so people on his friends list? Although I would wager that all the people who “matter” (like their mutual friends and relatives) were probably informed via her posts. The rest of us (me included) are just background filler.

        1. People tend to emote what they cherish. Haven’t you said Piano Man stopped posting frequently over the last year?
          Had there been any complications with the delivery so they are just getting settled at home first?
          You would think in 5 days he’d post something. Really, really odd. Social media to me is for creeping on people and posting major life events. Lol
          If his first post ends up being a picture of his dinner at The Mellow Mushroom Pizza Parlour or something completely mundane like that, he is beyond whacked in the head.

          1. Clarece
            Now now, posting pics first of his dinner at The Mellow Mushroom will just confirm him to be the funghi that he is.

            I didn’t want to but I had to.

          2. Agreed! But wouldn’t that be a total d-bag move if he posts something lame like that, or his next recital at church and NOTHING about the birth of his child?

          3. Clarece
            Piano Man is a midranger. Do you not think maybe he’s feeling jealous of all the attention his wife and the new baby are getting? You’re expecting him to act like a normal man and want to show off the baby. I bet he’s irritated that the baby is getting all the available fuel and especially irritated at what the wife is getting. I think Piano Man is struggling to control and hide his fury now and not thinking of the finer aspects of façade management like his FB presence.

          4. Is it fury though WS or possibly panic? Besides FOTS, he could have had a rotation going with others since he’s mastered “shelving” so well and there could be another one not being so compliant as FOTS and threatening to blow any affair wide open no matter what the collateral damage is. He may just be floating under the radar for facade management. I think he comes across as loving the image of being the doting father especially for his church crowd. That will still get him lots of fuel and congratulations his way. It is very odd within the week of your new child’s birth to not post some sort of announcement on any of your social medium platforms. The way FOTS describes him as always being so polite and calm…like always…I don’t see him feeling fury over this but rather cowardly hiding. Like if he was covering his face with his hands but peeking thru the fingers to see of the coast is clear. If I was his wife though, I’d be pretty irked to not see some family love and vibes for the new member from him on social media.

          5. Clarece
            I’ll be the first to admit I don’t understand social media…, His wife has a hard row to hoe. None of us know how hard her life is or what hell he puts her thru. Maybe it was a difficult birth and they had to stay in the hospital longer than expected. There could be any number of reasons he’s stayed off social media. Maybe he’s covering his face with his hands as you suggested. Why would you think his wife’s lot is any better than Gabs? I’d think it’s likely she’s abused and confused and totally unsupported in this birth. We all feel supportive of Gabs, because we know her. But I imagine his wife every but as unhappy and confused, with no support.

          6. Windstorm,

            Believe me I have overthought all of that too. But what it comes down to is how suspicious it looks that he is a ghost right now. Regardless of whatever is going on (or not going on).

            When I last saw him (which was about a week before the baby arrived) as we parted ways I wished him good luck for a safe and healthy birth of his son and to “keep me posted”. He hugged me goodbye and said “thank you, I will”. I am sure he has deleted me from his mind since then and I do not exist right now. He pressed “pause” like he always does. I am willing to bet if I were to call him and he saw my name on the display it would likely make him remember my existence, shit his pants and face the reality of his double (or possibly triple or quadruple lives). But then again he is not stupid and I am sure he knows I have trolled his wife’s page already. I knew when she was due and it has been almost a week since the baby was born. And she has been posting as her profile pic was updated.

            There is a reason why he is handling it this way by being non existent and ghost-like. For whatever reason he does not want attention called to himself or the baby. And compared to his past social media presence it it just reeks of shadiness!

          7. Hi WS! I have a feeling Piano Man’s wife experiences the loneliest marriage ever. As FOTS describes, he always remains polite. Even if he wants to implode from the inside out feeling suffocated by his married, regimented life for the facade, his outlet is his extracurricular activity. I’m guessing he comes home in a flurry all about himself. His day, his conversations with colleagues, his music, his stories…So he engages but yet unsupportive. Ya know what I mean. World revolves around him. I don’t think he is directly verbally or physically abusive. It’s just kind of floating and existing and because of their faith and her keeping a family together, I think she chalks it up to the better or worse vows taken in marriage. I’m sure she was terribly hurt, angered and bitter over the affair she found out and that is why he is hyper vigilant and so cowardly now making sure she never finds out he continues to cheat. I’m thinking she would not be so forgiving a second time. Her two kids would fill her time. So yes, I agree she has become accustomed to a state of confusion, lack of trust, and that sadly, that has become the norm.

          8. Clarece
            You very well may be right. I’d rather think, though, that she has her own life and interests. That she stays busy and happy on her own and makes his life as much hell at home as possible. While keeping up the religious façade in public, of course.

            In my experience opposites seem to attract. He’s a wimpy weakling. Odds are she’s strong and forceful. Maybe the sort of person who refuses to accept defeat and feels like she can control everyone around her and hold her world together by her own determination. She may well control the conversation at home, going on endlessly about the weaknesses and problems of other people and what she’s doing to fix them.

            That’s my hope, at least. We all know they can’t be happy together with him being a spineless, cheating midranger. I’d like to imagine that at least she feels powerful and contented. lol!

          9. WS,
            I have no idea how she is. I have never met her and only studied her social media (what little of it I can see). I keep feeling stuck in this notion that it is all sunshine and rainbows despite everyone telling me it is not. My jealousy is off the wall ridiculous.

          10. Clarece,
            You have such an innate ability to analyze every situation and I have to say I am someone who does the same. I have pretty much come to the similar summary you describe about him/his life. He has his day job as a front desk guy at the physical therapy practice and then he does his church piano playing and other various small music projects on the side (wedding gigs, community theater shows, etc.)…

            I doubt his desk job and side gigs pay the bills; she has the more lucrative career as a music teacher/chorus & theater director in a private school. I am sure that is part of it as well. Financial security if he stays.

            I often wonder if she supports him in his projects. He used to drone on about my DLS/IPSS-predecessor and say “She had her issues but she believed in me. She really really believed in me”. I hope that he knows/knew I believed in him too. He often shared his projects with me and I always enthusiastically listened and supported him in any way I could whether it be lending him money (which he always paid back) or going to see his shows. I am not saying his wife was not supportive or encouraging but he sure made it seem like she wasn’t when we had those discussions.

            He enjoys telling me stories about his sister in law (who he also works with) and his coworkers but he rarely discusses his wife with me. The only time he has ever done that is if I bring her up first and ask questions. And I usually don’t as I was/am jealous but once in awhile my mouth would not stay quiet and I would gently prod.

            For example…the last evening I saw him. I asked him if the pregnancy was really planned (as he would often go from hot to cold about it with his mood, one minute saying he felt sick over it and his head was spinning and the next minute he was happy because they “tried for so long and did not think it would ever happen”)…..and his reply was… “Yes, it was. I needed to give (daughter’s name) a sibling. She needs that.” So I get the idea the pregnancy was planned for his daughter (and/or possibly his wife also who may have wanted another baby too, who knows. But he mainly discussed his daughter when I brought it up).

            I asked if he loved her (his wife) and he said “Yes, I do. I love her so much but something is missing….”

            His bulletin board in his office (where I (used to) spend a lot of time hanging out with him on his evening hour days) is covered in photos of his daughter (NONE of his wife) and thank you letters from patients who get treatment at the clinic.

            Just felt like sharing that as your “synopsis” of him in your above reply made me recall those discussions.

          11. OMG! How could I forget Piano’s Man actual day job at the PT Office. Is he also a physical therapist (or studying to be) or like the Office Manager / Coordinator? Again, though like JN the social worker (who’s a huge advocate for child welfare), total angel with a dirty face occupation. How could people not think they are oozing integrity? Puke fest.
            Here is the thing about his wife, FOTS, that you may not realize. They have been together over a decade and where at one time she may have been completely enveloped with his music and projects and shows, that shit grows old real fast when they aren’t a big help around the house with the finances, housework, home maintenance issues, etc.
            My now ex-husband had what I called his flights of fancy. In the early years it was golf and always having to have the best titanium clubs (on a starter teacher’s salary), then his cigar smoking phase and collecting humidors and weekly trips to the Cigar store to sample the latest Cuban cigars. There was his beer making phase (which the new wife now even gets exposed to that one on occasion), there was his electric guitar playing phase. But the best was his hunting phase. When he wanted to reconnect to his hunting roots growing up in Louisiana. He rarely spoke about hunting during our dating years or the first 5 years of our marriage. Then boom, thousands of dollars spent over the next 4 years on hunting gear, rifles, tree stands, trips, etc. When he really got into that, he drifted away from our shared “hobby” of theatre. He still enjoyed it, but if I didn’t actively plan for a show to go to and purchase the tickets, it completely dropped off his radar.
            Piano Man may very well be using a “pity play” to act like only these women he has the affairs with truly see his gifted side and “believe” in him. His wife is most likely in a constant state of fatigue running the house, juggling the finances, doing the grocery shopping, the cleaning, the tending to the day-to-day childcare activities, planning most dinners or figuring out how to feed them. Gets a little tedious being so enveloped by their f*cking hobbies all the time.
            You know what I asked my ex-husband about two years after our divorce, when I realized I had some real resentment at how I was the glue that kept us together and always planned the “couplely” things? Why wasn’t I ever your HOBBY? He looked at me with the most blankest, confused face and said “I don’t know. If it makes you feel better, I’m not any different with XXXX (the new wife).
            I never knew until a year on this blog, that triangulation can also be with THINGS, not just people that your significant other can cheat on you with. My ex triangulated me for 14 years and I had no clue that was what was happening. And I’m not saying hobbies and your own interests aren’t good and positive and can make you a better partner. But you always need to do some doting and give your attention to your spouse. I grew real tired, real fast of the flights of fancy once our baby came along after 5 years of infertility. The icing on the cake was he started his World of Warcraft Phase with some of the IT Dept at the University he worked at and they would actually have sleepovers to play WOW all night. What 38 year old man, and new father, needs f*cking sleep overs to play video games?
            To answer WS’s response to me that it is her hope that Piano Man’s wife is strong, carrying on with her job, has her own interests, etc. I don’t think so. I think she is bedraggled, holding the whole household together, now taking care of a newborn and still doing the bulk with the older child, and trying to keep a good family image of a true woman of God and leaving everything up to her faith. I know where they live, being God fearing Christian people is huge (if you’re religious). She is in a total hamster wheel spinning, spinning and spinning. Piano Man reports in, punches in and out like a time clock and lives for his secret outlets to let off steam. What is missing in his relationship is not being 100% invested in his wife.

          12. Clarece

            I can’t understand then if she feels that way (run ragged and holding everything together) and sees that he will continue to be no help, why she would want to add another child to that.

          13. NarcAngel
            I think I understand why Piano Man’s wife might want another child. Maybe the children are her main source of happiness. Maybe success as a mother is a great source of pride. Maybe she’s growing her own family of people that love her, since her marriage is a bust.

          14. Windstorm
            I considered that but he’s such a weak useless dick. Not to mention thats what she’s offering the child for a Father. I don’t want to start a war but I’ve always wondered how thats not seen as selfish. I’ve been called selfish for NOT having them.

          15. NarcAngel
            We’re all selfish in that we do things to make ourselves happier. What keeps it from being bad is that we not hurt others.

            No one living with a narc is thinking clearly. She probably knows how much she will love the children. How she will work so hard to be a good mother. They’ll have a nice house, be raised to love the Lord and have a father present.

            From her viewpoint having children is good for her and them. Maybe she’s like me and never saw a loving marriage and thinks her marriage is normal. A man who keeps a job, comes home most nights and interacts at all with the kids might be the best she ever expected. After all, its unreasonable to deny yourself a family because they wouldn’t have a perfect life. No one has a perfect life.

          16. Bingo! These guys choose wisely. As JN’s friend told me recently he thought his new girlfriend is “hideous” (I wrote that story on another thread). JN went with someone definitely…in a different circle than what he used to run with as far as looks. And I’m not saying that at all to be vain. She has a very Lena Dunham from HBO’s “Girls” look about her. I would not describe as “hideous” but very plain. He always specified for me to be dolled up for him. He loves lingerie and someone putting the time in to put make up on. I completely see JN conditioning her down over time and she will always think she struck gold with him and will take and take repeatedly to fight for whatever golden period she’s getting now.

          17. NA, I don’t think Piano Man’s wife thinks he’s a total useless dick though. I think she is under the guise of holding on to the “potential” of what she thinks he can achieve. Listen to the song and dance he gives FOTS. He must really lay on the guilt and shame spiel to her on trying to be a better man. Sure, she’ll hold on to that. Especially if she wants a family life with the church involved.

          18. Clarece
            You’re right. We’re speculating about a lot here. He may not be at all with his wife like he is with FOTS and I was thinking of him as the pathetic snivelling excuse of a character he offers her. Although if he’s a mid theres not much hope for him to be much else.

          19. Hi NA, I wrote a long response to your comments replying to both WS and myself. Yes, I’m very interested in hearing your observations too on what I initially wrote. I’m hoping HG pushes through my response while it is fresh and I’m very interested in your perspective as always. I just wanted to let you know there was more coming when it’s done in moderation.

          20. That in itself is a huge motivator if her daughter so far brings a lot of joy to her life. Agreed!

          21. Hi NA, I understand that instinctive reaction completely, especially with your feelings on the matter in what you’ve shared here. Let me see if I can help.
            First thing that pops in my head, Chris Watts. Psychopath from Colorado who killed his wife and two girls back in August. Did you know he actually gave a conference / educational type lecture I believe in a campus setting on ways to hold a relationship together and one of the reasons he listed, was HAVE A BABY TOGETHER because it brings a couple closer. Clearly not for him, since his wife was carrying their 3rd baby. But, for some, who love children, who love that connection of feeling they brought a new life in the world with the person they love, the idea that it does forever connect you to someone (in a healthy relationship that it is a beautiful way to live on and carry traits of your parents), that is a very deep, primal, biological need.
            If Piano Man and his wife, following the affair she found out about, made that a condition that she would forgive him and give him another chance (because she has no clue what she’s really dealing with) so they could try for a second baby, I can see where Piano Man desperate to keep her in place and all the residual benefits she provides agreed. It would explain why he explains this 2nd baby as something planned to give his daughter a sibling. So far I haven’t heard he wanted to try for a son or because of his love of kids.
            Another example.
            My own parents. My mom had a stillborn when I was 3. It was an extremely difficult pregnancy and the doctors told my mom she would not be able to have any more kids. But she was healthy enough and really wanted to experience having a 2nd baby and I always was told my mom and dad really wanted me to have sibling. My brother eventually came along. It was more like we were two “only” children in a way because we are 10 years apart. As grown ups though, we are extremely close. He is so sweet and protective towards me. After my divorce, he started calling me every day on his way to work to check in on me. I absolutely adore my baby brother. So it is a gift to give a child a sibling.
            Myself. I went thru 5 years infertility to have my little girl with my ex-husband. We started having our problems when she was about 3. I too desperately wanted to give her a sibling and have another baby. I found motherhood to be absolutely empowering. Everything MB said about loving and bonding with your newborn child resonated with me.
            One of the reasons I chose to move ahead with my divorce rather than keep lingering for a couple years seeing if I could salvage something in my marriage was I was 38 and time was running out for me. My daughter had been a high risk pregnancy at 34.
            I had shared that early on with JN too so he always leveraged that with me. He repeatedly told me he loved the idea of putting his baby in me and having a part of him growing inside me. I find that the most cruel and insidious thing he did to toy with me over that. I won’t ever forgive him that.
            Aside from your relationship, for those that truly love being a parent, seeing the world thru innocent child eyes again, reading sweet bedtime stories, the renewed sense of energy keeping up with them, I loved every age and every little phase.
            So yes, you can feel run ragged by mundane adult life routines and still love motherhood and what comes with it and not have that necessarily be a deterrent.
            I hope this helps.

          22. Narc Angel…
            I replied to Clarece a little earlier re: the below.


            I can’t understand then if she feels that way (run ragged and holding everything together) and sees that he will continue to be no help, why she would want to add another child to that.”

            The last time I saw him (about a week before the baby was born) I asked him if it was planned and he said yes and then said that he wanted to give his daughter a sibling. He talked like he was excited but it was not the vibe I got at all. My guess is to make his wife/kid/family happy and to build his nice guy image.

          23. You may be right, Clarece, but I still hope piano man’s wife has her share of happiness and joy outside their relationship. Maybe her faith helps sustain her. It’s just my nature to hope.

            Here we are debating on whether or not his wife’s life is completely horrible or maybe she can find some happiness away from him and Gabs is sitting somewhere wishing she could trade places with the wife! I know what it’s like to love toxic people, but I can’t understand that. Sorry, Gabs. I love you, but I just can’t understand.

          24. Windstorm,

            “Gabs is sitting somewhere wishing she could trade places with the wife! I know what it’s like to love toxic people, but I can’t understand that. Sorry, Gabs. I love you, but I just can’t understand.”

            Yes, I am, sadly. Just being honest!

            I do not understand it myself either Windstorm. My jealousy floods me.

          25. You say you’re jealous, Gabs. That your jealousy floods you. But your jealous for something that would make you miserable! I think that’s what I can’t understand. To be his wife, with him lying to you and running other women on the side – do you really think you want that?

            And that is how it would be. That’s the type of man he is. You know this better than anyone because you’re one of the other women!

          26. Maybe just getting the validation of him coming home to her and her kids, feeling chosen, and having the outside world see he chose her, for whatever time span it lasts, makes all this worth it, WS?
            Not saying I agree or condone. Just giving a possible perspective of when you’re treated like the DLS. A huge part of that manipulation is always being made to feel like if you were only good enough than you could have the full package and be fully integrated in their life.

          27. Thanks for the explanation, Clarece. Sounds feasible. Like I said, it’s outside my experience and comprehension.

          28. Clarece, I was struggling before to find the words to answer Windstorm’s question. Much of your reply above makes sense to me so hopefully she will read that and understand. I am so drained. It was hard to not reach out to him today. For some reason I wanted to ring his phone and I wanted it to go to voice mail. I wanted that so I could STAY MAD. I re-read a few texts again from 2 weeks ago to make myself angrier. It is a temporary bandaid but it needs to stick better. I need to stay mad. 😡

          29. I do not know Windstorm. I feel like my brain keeps fucking with me. It keeps telling me that they are riding around on this mystical unicorn together that is shitting rainbows in every direction. I keep trying to type and retype a response to this but I am re-reading my replies each time and scrapping them because it makes no sense to me. I cannot explain it. I can only explain how I feel which is jealous, helpless, depressed, lonely, afraid and worst of all….forgotten. I hope that (sort of) helps somewhat. I am sorry that for once I cannot explain my thoughts. But they are there and I have them.

          30. Gab
            There’s a guy on a unicorn trying to get to you but he cant see you for all their shit.

          31. Okay FOTS. I similarly hung on for good closure with JN not wanting to be forgotten for bad reasons. I wanted to be remembered fondly and affectionately.
            So let’s deal with your biggest fear that he goes about his family life and forgets you. Face down that fear. I know he is a great love of your life. But it is not reciprocated. So it’s inevitable the time will come in your life that you two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
            What is the worst that you imagine will happen to you? You need to start facing that reality so that you can logically figure out how to cope and fill your life in other ways. It’s kinda what I had to do about last year at this time. When you start tackling that core issue, things will start to fall in place around that.
            You need to start overthinking YOUR reactions and how to help yourself. Not his text messages and hidden subcontext in them. His actions tell you perfectly well what you need to hear.

          32. “The way FOTS describes him as always being so polite and calm…like always…I don’t see him feeling fury over this but rather cowardly hiding. Like if he was covering his face with his hands but peeking thru the fingers to see of the coast is clear.”

            You hit the nail on the head Clarece!!!!! This is his usual personality. He is like a ghost in all he says and does. An intermittent (yet friendly and non-threatening) ghost. That is the best way to describe him. Hiding. Always hiding. Just the way he has always “hid” me so to say. The several week long bouts of silence during our communications, for no reason at all.

            Past and prior text memories dance through my mind….

            Me: “Your ghost like silence really hurts…”
            Him: “You are right, I AM a ghost. I am sorry”

            “I am sorry I did not answer the phone last week. I have been so tired that I forgot what day it was!”

            “Please don’t take my silence personally. It means nothing unless I specifically tell you we aren’t gonna talk for awhile….”

            And finally…

            Me (after he told me to “hold on” while he took a work call while at his office but I could still hear him on the call, it was confirming an appt for a patient): “You have the most polite phone demeanor I think I have ever heard…”

            Him: “I have to be like that. Always.”

            And then when he said he was having the “worst day”….

            “No one ever sees me lose my shit. Ever. I only do that when I am in private”

            Sorry for the tangent but all of that kind of regurgitated itself when you said he is “hiding with his hands over his face peeking through his fingers”.

            “I’d be pretty irked to not see some family love and vibes for the new member from him on social media.”

            I overthought that too. If she is tagging him in pics it is not showing up on any of HIS platforms due to his privacy settings. Before his son was born he was not hiding his friends list. It was there, clear as day, all 1600+ people. Now it is not there at all.

            Maybe he is doing this to build up suspense not just from me but whomever else. Another thought.

          33. Hi FOTS! The reason I think I “nailed” it with Piano Man’s reactions, is because his actions and many responses are so uncannily similar to how JN was with me. It infuriates me seeing it done to someone else and I think that is why I take your experience so personal and to heart. That saccharine sweet, good guy image they portray as everyone’s friend is actually so vapid. And no one catches on. Even the wife.
            “Please don’t take my silence personally. It means nothing unless I specifically tell you we aren’t gonna talk for awhile….”
            That line right there…JN’s spin on that used to be in person, the first two years when I saw him. He would say, “Don’t take it personally if you don’t hear from me. I just lose track of time. I’m bad with that.” Or another time, I got, “one friend was so mad because I dropped off for 3 weeks but I honestly didn’t realize 3 weeks passed.”
            How the f*ck does that happen? You show up to work and see calendars. You made it thru college turning in assignments and passing tests. How about the first 4 months when you texted me hundreds of times morning, noon and nd night throughout the day? Don’t feed me this bs line, I lose track of time. I guess that is the compartmentalization. All JN was doing was conditioning me to put up with silent treatments while I was in a rotation most likely with others. I noticed I always seemed to hear from him most the 2nd week to middle of the month each month, until I started pulling away and going for longer stretches of NC. But I had to wean myself off for about a year.
            What is so difficult about these types is that they are not violent, rage filled beings that you feel you are in danger and may need to go in the witness protection program to escape. Their facade is so airtight it continually makes them appealing when you can’t quite get enough of them. It literally can suck years from your life.
            I hope this time he’s pushed you enough where you just sick of it. I got sick of testing out HG’s theories. I got exhausted of analyzing his behavior and statements. I just needed to stop. I still am angry or get sad, but HG told me back in spring that all JN did was find a new victim. And I think his gf is going to get the same treatment and experience that Piano Man’s wife gets.

          34. Clarece,
            I saw a few replies so I will try to consolidate quickly.

            He told me that he wanted to give his daughter a sibling. So to me that tells me he did it for her (or the wife or because God said so, who knows).

            Yes. She (and he) are very religious.

            I recall you saying that JN said similar things.

            Lately I heard “Today is Monday? I thought today was Tuesday!” Piano boy ALWAYS lost track of time too. But I am sure it was bullshit because I doubt he was booking patients at the clinic on wrong days and times. Nope. Work always impeccable I am sure!

            Eeerie how similar JN and Piano boy are.

            If something is important to them it is not forgotten….if it does not matter then it is an afterthought….like oh…let’s see….MY BIRTHDAY!
            Year 1: Big deal. So much love and adoration.
            Year 2: A casual text wishing me many “happy returns”. (before pushing me away)
            Year 3 (this year): SILENCE. Then my rage. And then “Oh I am sorry for forgetting your birthday kiddo, I forget everyone’s birthday don’t take it personally”

            No, he is not studying to be a doctor. He is just the Front Office Coordinator. The clinic is very active in ALS awareness and fund raising though. They host frequent golf tournaments in the area, which he (and the PT staff attend). He is also active in the church. Yes, total angel with a dirty face!

            “I think she is bedraggled, holding the whole household together, now taking care of a newborn and still doing the bulk with the older child, and trying to keep a good family image of a true woman of God and leaving everything up to her faith. I know where they live, being God fearing Christian people is huge (if you’re religious).”

            She is. He is. (religious) and I totally agree with ALL your points.

            “Something is missing” = Pssshhht. Indeed it is!

          35. Windstorm
            Exactly. We’ve learned here and experienced that narcs hate birthdays (other than their own) and will only pretend to acknowledge or celebrate to maintain the facade. That includes their own children.

          36. Clarece,

            You have an excellent memory and yes you are right. Very infrequent social media postings over the last year. It was quiet for about 4-5 months (January to June). After that, his posts rotated between selfies of him and his daughter making goofy faces at the camera, posts of You Tube videos referencing some “epic” TV show or movie moment (usually Lord of the Rings or Adventure Time) or anything music related (usually something orchestral).

            So while the lack of “baby news” does not really surprise me now….it still sort of does, yet it doesn’t. Know what I mean? LOL at all the comments regarding the Mushroom Pizza place being his first post. Hahahaha!! I guess we will see huh? It would not surprise me if life went on in terms of the usual types of posts I shared above and we see nothing about any new baby.

            To answer your other Q, I know nothing of any delivery complications in regard to the baby. She changed her FB profile pic and she posted a few pics on her school’s music/choral Instagram page (one was the FB pic, 2 were just of the baby and the 3rd was her daughter holding the baby, nothing of him anywhere).

            I saw him about a week before the baby was born, and then we had that “you are obsessed” conversation which led to silence. I know nothing of any delivery complications other than how they went to the hospital for a false labor scare a few days before I saw him, and they were sent home. I only know when the baby arrived since I checked her FB page that afternoon and saw that she changed her pic earlier in the morning. The only reason I checked her page that day is because I had a dream about him that night and when I woke up my C-section scar was itching. My scar has not itched me in YEARS. I am still creeped out by that.

            I wonder if he did announce it on FB but made a privacy filter to exclude me on the announcement but then I figured…why would he? He knows I am fixed, done having kids and do not want more kids. I am sure he would relish in my jealousy over his news as he knows how I feel about him. I am going with Windstorm’s thoughts with the fury vs. facade over the baby. I guess the constant pics of him and his older kid did not matter as much as a new baby would matter (least in HIS mind).

            I HAVE toyed with the idea of calling him but no way would I say “congrats” because then he would know I was snooping. He is also not stupid though, I am sure he knows that I have snooped by now, I knew when she was due and the baby came 2 days after the due date. Then again I doubt he would answer the phone anyway. All this does is make me not want to reach out at all (which I guess is a blessing in disguise).

            The news has to come out sometime though. He must really need to lock things down if he is hiding his FB friends list! THAT seems even MORE shady!

          37. No, you cannot call him right now. Not for any reason.
            It is possible to make a post on FB and filter so only certain friends see it or certain friends do not (if they are bumped to “acquaintance” level) but since you saw two pics last week that you liked, I’m thinking he hadn’t done that to you.
            It may mean nothing. Some people are just doing less on FB in general. He may post a pic of him and new baby in two weeks doing something random like tucking him or another selfie with the baby and his daughter and him. Like it’s just another day in the life of the Grand Piano Man.

          38. “It may mean nothing. Some people are just doing less on FB in general. He may post a pic of him and new baby in two weeks doing something random like tucking him or another selfie with the baby and his daughter and him.”

            Clarece….this was my other theory too. (Yes I have many theories as I unfortunately overthink things to their death). But I think you are accurate. As I said before she is the one putting the pics out there and their mutual grouping of people who would expect to see something are likely just seeing what is going on from her page and not his.

            He will eventually post again. And it will be interesting to see if it is a pic or just TV shows, movies and music like usual.

            It is also a matter of when he will reach out again too. He always does. Email, text, call, social media following both ways, it is all still wide open. Granted I am taking small steps by keeping my silence right now but I am not ready to begin closing down the channels. I hope that makes sense.

      3. Clarece, Narc Angel, MB, Blank, Lori, Windstorm and anyone else that slips my mind (sorry)….

        I wanted to post a quick update to the Piano boy situation and the lack of social media announcement regarding the new baby.

        Piano Boy and I have one mutual friend. She was the gateway to how he originally reached out and got to know me. This friend does not know about our DLS relationship and only knows of us as “friends” (well from what I have shared with her anyway).

        Last night she texted me…. “Hey have you heard the news about (Piano Boy’s) wife and that she had the baby?”

        Me (playing dumb): “No, I did not. I knew she was due around this time though. I must have missed the announcement.”

        Her: “Yeah, it was posted on FB last week, on the 17th.”

        Me: “Hmmm. That is odd. The last post I see on (Piano Boy’s) page was from the 12th about Lord of the Rings. I guess I was filtered from that post for some reason…”

        (yet I can still see everything else on his page and was NOT unfriended)

        Her: “That is odd. Sometimes FB does that for no reason”

        (UH-HUH! Suuuuure!)

        Me: “I doubt it. Filters are for when you want to hide your shit from certain people but you are don’t want to totally unfriend or block them. I would offer my congrats to him but seeing as how I did not see the announcement it would just be awkward, so I won’t, but thank you for letting me know!”

        Her: “Reach out and see what he says. Keep in mind he has strayed in his marriage before so it may be to keep the peace.”

        It went on a little bit from there. But I think the above is enough to convey to y’all what is happening!


        I feel pretty stupid carrying on here over the last 3 days analyzing why there was no baby announcement posted. There WAS. I was just blocked/filtered from seeing it. Which I really did not think was happening as I still see everything else I have always seen.

        Our mutual friend texting me (A WEEK LATER) to ask me if I “heard the news”. Well obviously not as I cannot tell the difference between FB inactivity and being blocked from certain posts. I guess this is his way for indirectly making me realize that I was blocked/filtered. Am I overthinking this? He wanted me to know of the news but that I was not worthy of hearing about it with everyone else therefore that is why this friend “reached out”. So that I would learn the news AND that I am not important enough to see it with everyone else on his FB. All 1600 of them!!!!!!

        And I should “reach out and see what he says” ?
        What if any, would be the NICE POLITE GUY explanation for such if I were to do that? Or does that not matter because I am just expected to….reach out? Send that text….make that call….ask why I was left out? Because of his guilt and shame right? Fucking mid-range pity party.

        Well, there is the update. We no longer need to debate why there was no FB post honoring the 2nd born. There was. I am just too high up on that shelf to see it and needed a reminder of someone other than him to indirectly point it out to me.

        1. FOTS
          This strikes me as typical of your relationship. You spend days worrying and trying to analyze what you can see of his behavior, only to find it was a waste of time.

          You’d be a lot better off if you walk along that shelf you’re on, find a window, escape into the real world and head off into your own life. FREEDOM!!!!

      4. To those who were following along with my situation, I wanted to give another update…. regarding the Facebook drama of not seeing the baby related announcement.

        Piano Boy and I have a mutual friend. A week after his baby was born she reached out to me to “ask me if I saw the FB news about his baby”. I told her I had not and she then confirmed when he posted. A week prior. That was when I realized that I was purposely excluded. When I expressed my displeasure by telling the friend that I was excluded, the friend then “suggested” that I “reach out to him and see what he says”.

        I waited a few days to try and cool off. Last night I called him. It rang and he did not answer. The call went to voice mail. A few hours later I got a text from him WITH baby pictures that said “Check your Facebook, you should be able to see everything now”.

        So this week long story short….it was all a deliberate set up by him. Excluding me, having the friend reach out to make me realize I was excluded, me reaching out, him ignoring me and then bam suddenly I get a response.

        I replied back to offer my congratulations and I also asked point blank why. WHY was I excluded like that? It was met with….SILENCE! No reply. Nothing. Nada.

        It was all staged and I was played like the fool I am. All I can say is that I hope he feels good about himself, I really do. What a child he is.

        1. Please end your interaction with this person immediately. Clearly you have an understanding to what is happening but you are still in contact and playing along? This is only keeping you from moving forward, love yourself enough to cut this person out of your life! You are harming yourself, please stop. Don’t provide fuel. Ever.

        2. I’m telling you, Gabs, slide across that shelf your on, crawl out the window and escape into reality! Run, run, run and don’t look back!!

    2. Fots,

      Give him up. The man has a wife and children. Don’t wreck their family life. You are as wrong in this as he is. Cry, mourn and move on! We all did it, you can do it as well.

      1. Blank,
        I replied above to Clarece that I’ve not reached out since that bullshit convo and don’t intend to.

        1. FOTS, I wish you continued strength to uphold no contact.

          Ps. It seems to me, he would be scrambling to keep you sweet to avoid you blowing up his life, not being an ass wipe. I suppose, being the narcissist that he is, he believes he has enough control over you that you won’t do that.

          1. MB,

            I wanted to address these comments:

            “Ps. It seems to me, he would be scrambling to keep you sweet to avoid you blowing up his life, not being an ass wipe.”

            The conversation I shared earlier in this post, although irritating, still came across as incredibly “polite” from his typical demeanor! Even when he begins instigating shit like I am “too much” and he “needs a break”, calling me obsessed or chastising me for doing whatever he does not like (like “liking a few pics) he always does it in the most fucking POLITE way possible. Using phrases like “it’s okay” and “I am not upset”. However his undertone is anything but that! I guess the best way to share my perspective on how it went down 2 weeks ago was… “He was being an ass wipe BUT he was being a polite ass wipe”. Polite is his middle name. Whenever he acts like this he is so polite about it! He is always soooooo fucking polite in general to everyone. I have never seen this guy lose his shit. He could call you an asshole and make it sound nice. I saw a meme the other day. It said “Some people are beautifully wrapped boxes of shit”. Does that make sense? That’s him.


            “I suppose, being the narcissist that he is, he believes he has enough control over you that you won’t do that.”

            Yeah, sadly he does. He knows I am loyal. Oh I have thought about destroying him, do not get me wrong (I commented about that urge in another post not too long ago) but those thoughts of destroying him (when I have them) are fleeting and I always come right back around to not doing that. My stupid love for him (and not wanting to drag his wife and kids through the mud) always wins out. If there was a way to only destroy him with no collateral damage believe me there are times I’d be all over that.

            Also, he can’t be THAT stupid. I am sure he knows I have creeped on social media for baby related news of his. But if I dare say anything I will be lambasted again for “stalking FB”. Perhaps this is also an indirect way to force me into silence. (although I was ignoring him before I learned that the baby had arrived….)

      2. Fots,

        I read your comment to Clarece this afternoon. I applaud you for the NC (although not full). Please keep it up Fots, it’s hard, but you can do it. Distraction is very, very important. Stop looking at anything that has to do with him. Go to the movies, concerts, see friends or get a good book, anything to get this guy off your mind.

        I’ve been on both sides of the coin Gabby, I’ve been with two different married guys before my marriage, but I was also a wife with 2 kids who my husband cheated on (speaking of Karma..). And when I found out it was truly devastating. Piano man is a cheater, but you do not want to be the cause of a family breaking up.
        You know what to do now and my thoughts are with you. I know how hard it is.
        Take care Fots, your life will be so much better once this man is out of sight and mind, it takes time but you will get there. Big hug xxx

      3. You know Fots, I remind myself continuously that every time I reconnected with him, I felt worse about myself. In the end I felt like a complete moron and I thought he must be disgusted with my pathetic clingy attitude (I was disgusted with myself).
        We are nothing but devices they play and they laugh at us behind our back. Self-worth is what we need to build, so we’ll never get in such a situation again. Be strong Gab xx

      4. Blank….I was re-reading through this thread again and this triggered another memory for me…

        “…and I thought he must be disgusted with my pathetic clingy attitude”

        I think he WAS. One time (over text) after he made mention (again) of how we need to “take steps back to balance ourselves” (aka: I am sick of you, want you to back off but I am not “abandoning you”)…
        I said “Do you think less of me for being in love with you?”

        Him: “No, I don’t think less of you. But I do find it pitiful.”

        What gets me is I thought they loved and craved such attention and feelings. But like HG says, it is all about that “contrast” right. Did I get that accurate?

        1. FOTS, He literally said it was “pitiful”? Are you kidding me? I can’t even…I just can’t handle it anymore…
          He knows how he TREATS you and that is what is pitiful, All this shame and guilt he supposedly carries around. That is what is pitiful.

          1. Yup Clarece. I just re-searched the text messages from the last time he said I was “obsessed with him” (aside from 2 weeks ago, this was from about 2 months ago) and it went like this:

            Me: “Obsessed with you. That is fine, you are entitled to your opinion. But I prefer to say that I am in love with you”

            Him: “I am not saying you are not in love with me. I believe you when you say you are.”

            Me: “Do you think less of me for being in love with you?”

            Him: “No. But I find it pitiful. Your pursuit of me is heartbreaking and pitiful”

          2. Omg FOTS! What a brutal conversation. I almost threw my phone out the window reading that on your behalf I was so disgusted.
            Your “pursuit” is not heartbreaking and pitiful. It can only be that because he knows for a fact, he IS not and will NEVER reciprocate. Cease communicating with him. Keep going with the 2 week momentum of NC. All the answers to questions you keep thinking you need to hear from him…it’s all here.

          3. Clarece,
            I remember parts of that story (specifically about JN wanting to make a baby with you). I cannot imagine the grief you must have felt at that empty promise (I am assuming that was before you knew what he was?) but I am sure that must have felt horrific. I hope he is (or will be) as barren as a wasteland with whatever sperm he has floating around when that time comes. What a tool. 😡

          4. Hey FOTS, Awww thanks for the solace! I should clarify something about JN. When he was saying things eluding to baby making, let’s call it, in the heat of the moment, or in the occasional conversation, I knew it came from a place of him enjoying my reaction in the way it “amped” things up. We had many fights where I would tell him not to say something eluding to that because that should be reserved for someone you are truly in love with. He wouldn’t stop. So then I would push are you in love with me or do you even care? Then he would pull away. Month later, I’d hear the same thing. I definitely accused him a number of times of doling out false hope and being cruel just for sport to say something so important to me or to do that to anyone who truly wants to have a baby. Obviously, with our age gap, what a kluster that would be trying to co-parent with him. I’d have to have HG on speed dial for consults. Again, I got comfortable with how well I manage co-parenting with my ex husband and I cannot make the fatal error to think it would roll out that well with someone else if I ever had gotten pregnant again. To me, what makes it so manipulative was he knew the timing of me getting out of my long marriage and finalizing the divorce. He knew I was going to have to sell the house I loved. I had so many layers of grief going on and he was capitalizing on all of it.

      5. Fots, it IS about contrast and everything is on their terms only. If they want you, they want you. If they want you gone, they want you gone. Everything they do or say is love-less and selfish.
        Oh and they lie and manipulate. All of the time. All of them.. and I mean ALL of them. Not one single narc excluded.
        Goodnight Fots, listen to some cheerfull music or watch carpool karaoke with James Corden (I love him) on Youtube, you’ll feel better instantly. Take care xxx

    3. FOTS, I hate seeing you so stuck. Your situation is different than other DLS/IPSS on here. You are in love with him and putting your life on hold hoping to be crowned for a position you hope will be different than the incumbent. It is a painful place to be, but you have the map to freedom unlike many that have gone before you. I wish I had these resources when I was where you are. I wish for you continued strength for staying on course. Your future awaits.

      1. MB, I had a whole response typed up to you re: your reply above but I kept deleting and re-typing it and then realized “he’s a narc and my reply is not going to magically change anything or erase the pain”. My brain is just done today. So I will just say thank you for your kind and uplifting words in your last few sentences.

        1. Take care of yourself FOTS. Pamper you. I like red wine and bubble baths. You do whatever makes you feel special and relaxed. Reach out here if you need to. Text us, not the narcissist. We’ve got your back. You’re among friends.

    1. Then either a different form of manipulation will be used or we will seek fuel from an alternative appliance.

  12. Don’t bite …don’t take the bait . Don’t be lured in just sit and watch ….watch you the narc get uncomfortable

Vent Your Spleen!

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