Crossing The Emotional Sea – Part Two




The first battle that takes places post disengagement or escape is the battle of the Emotional Sea. That is a battle that you are always destined to lose. You will always fight at least one Emotional Sea Battle because you do not know any other way. In all likelihood, you will face several of these battles because you will keep being hoovered back into our grasp until such time as you learn to recognise what you are dealing with and understand what you must do. Eventually and this may take several Emotional Sea Battles before you realise this and are capable of achieving the appropriate response, you either evade the Emotional Sea Battle by escaping as opposed to being discarded, or you prepare yourself for the eventual discard in a manner which means you no longer have to ensure the Emotional Battle. Instead, you move on to the next post disengagement or post escape  battle, that of Head versus Heart (“the HvH Battle”).

The HvH Battle (also known as the Logic v Emotion Battle) is a battleground where you stand some chance of victory. This battleground is one where you have gained understanding. It might be through your repeated exposure to our kind so that eventually something has “clicked” into place or more often than not it is as a consequence of an external agent who has explained matters to you. It might by a therapist, a friend, the content of a book, something you saw on YouTube or even something that I have written. Whatever has caused this understanding to increase, it is this which provides you with the fighting chance to win this HvH Battle.

You have been discarded and run the gamut of emotional fall-out thereafter. You may understand what we are. You may understand some of the things that we have done. You may be familiar with the fact that we will try to hoover you back into our grip. You may even be starting to comprehend that what has happened was all predicated on an illusion. The degree of understanding will vary but what is important for you is that you are allowing logical thought to be heard above the raw heat of your emotions. You once again will not just be battling against us but also yourself. We will be looking to hoover you in order to draw you back into our grip or perhaps we will be unleashing a malign hoover since we are unable to draw you back into our false reality and therefore we opt to keep extracting negative fuel by way of punishment for your treachery. You have us as an opponent, but you will also be fighting yourself as your emerging logic grapples with the still churning emotion. You have learned many things and you know you should apply what you have learned but still there is the emotional pull that you experience. You are not removed or detached from your emotions, they have not dimmed either, they are still there, raging away. The hurt, the love, the longing, the passion, the fear and the upset. An ocean of emotion which you once tried to cross but that was the Emotional Battle and you had barely taken four strokes as you began to swim before you were engulfed by the emotion and sank to the bottom of this sea, drowned by your own emotion. Now you have built a vessel. It is made from cool, hard logic. Critical thinking, once a stranger to you during your savage devaluation, has re-appeared. You can analyse and assess. It is unlikely you are able to do so at the level you once enjoyed before we came along but it is there. Whether this vessel is a tiny raft, a dinghy, a boat or a hulking great liner depends very much on the extent of your understanding. The choppy emotional seas will smash against your vessel of logic. A wave of sorrow will buffet you, a tsunami of longing will threaten to swamp you once again. Wave after wave of emotion will try and capsize your vessel as you try to navigate this emotional ocean. Chances are your life raft will be smashed to match wood and you will be tipped into the sea to drown once again as emotion subsumes you and you find yourself back in our hold. Your clipper may be holed beneath the waterline and you start to take on board more and more emotion as steadily you sink beneath the emotional waves once again. It is during this HvH Battle as you try to cross the emotional ocean, because what you must do is reach the dry land beyond and in effect put an ocean but you and us, you will be subjected to the push and pull of your emotions trying to guide you, to control your decision-making, your head will tell you one thing as your heart screams something else at you. This is probably the harder battle for you to fight. In the Emotional Battle, you do not stand a chance and your defeat is swift and total. During the HvH Battle you will make gains, suffer losses, seem to making a breakthrough and then out of nowhere a tidal wave will flip you from your boat and into the churning ocean and you drown once again. All the while we will be whipping up the waves, firing our torpedoes at you as we endeavour to cause you to sink into this emotional ocean yet again and you fail to cross it and win this battle. How might this HvH Battle manifest in the real world?

  1. You will know you ought not to contact us but you need to send a message to see if we respond.
  2. You will keep checking our social media profiles to ascertain if you are mentioned, if we are with somebody else and/or to find out what we are doing.
  3. You will ask about us to our coterie and lieutenants, often unwittingly doing so, so this is fed back to us.
  4. You will go on dates but find you are always comparing this new person to us and they are always found to be wanting.
  5. You know what the outcome will be but you just want one more night with us.
  6. You realise that we are unlikely to change but if you do not try you will never know, so it is worth one more attempt to talk isn’t it?
  7. You understand much of what we did and said was a lie, but surely it could not all have been an illusion? There must have been times where we really did love you and you need to ask us about this.
  8. You know we are bad for you, but you cannot help what you feel. Surely it would be better to stop this pain from being there all the time and just have it occasionally?
  9. You know you should not reply to our messages but it feels so good to have a conversation with us again. It has been too long.
  10. You know we are using you, but it feels so damn good.
  11. One kiss cannot hurt can it?
  12. You know better now, so going back will be different because you know what to expect. Armed with this new knowledge you can enter the lion’s den again but be better prepared.
  13. You know we are bad for you but you cannot bear the thought of someone else being with us and perhaps being the one to work.
  14. What if this time the apology is sincere and the desire to change is real? If you walked away from that, you would only be denying yourself happiness wouldn’t you?
  15. You understand engaging with us is dangerous but there are things you really need to tell us.

These and others besides are all examples of the inherent tension that arises in this tug-of-war between your cool intellect and your burning emotions.

Can you win this battle that rages post disengagement or post escape? Unlike the first battle, the Emotional SeaBattle which you can never win, you can be victorious. You may have to fight this HvH Battle many times before securing the win. In the beginning you may be clinging to little more than a log as you desperately try to sail the emotional ocean and you are swept from it. However, by reading and understanding, by disciplining yourself to apply logic, to prevent your emotions from engulfing you, by reading more and increasing your knowledge you will begin to increase your logic vessel. From log to raft to dinghy. Still you may be swamped and drowned again. But then it becomes a small boat, a yacht, a clipper, a steamer, a passenger liner, a frigate, a destroyer and a super tanker. Each time you rebuild, better, bigger and stronger as you learn more, making the vessel more seaworthy. You begin to chart routes so you avoid the most tumultuous emotional areas, finally beginning to steer through calmer waters until there it is, on the horizon, the sight of land and the final battle that occurs with our kind post discard.

The HvH Battle is not an easy battle. You will fight it several times, but each time you should be better prepared to cross the emotional ocean and improve your prospects of success. Sometimes you are taken unawares by some of our provocative tactics and dumped unceremoniously into the water once again, but it is a battle you can win through the dedicated application of knowledge and understanding.



  1. Wow, looked up this post today because I knew I needed to read it again, there are so many good comments here!!
    I am definitely still in this phase. Today is day 50 NC. This is the farthest I’ve gotten thus far and it is worth patting myself on the back over it.
    It’s odd, but this NC thing keeps shifting. The first four weeks were so peaceful, I felt such relief to have finally made the decision, I thought about him very little and had virtually no urge to talk to him.
    Weeks four through six were harder. He was entering my thoughts more, my memory was working on erasing the “bad” parts and reminding me of the fun times, the sexual satisfaction, the excitement. I had a few small lapses (googled his address, looked at an old photo of him, looked up a family member of his on FB). But I still did not contact him, nor have I unblocked him.
    It feels like I am thinking about things through a film of cotton. I still miss him (the good times), I can still downplay the bad times, and if I’m honest I sort of wish he would hoover me (classic case of me wanting to feel wanted, not rejected). BUT the thoughts come across differently. They are not potent like they used to be. They are weak, they don’t really motivate me to do anything, or end the NC. I wonder if this is normal, if it is the logic creeping in more and more, or the addiction breaking.
    I hope for all of those things, because now, at week 7, I can feel the same submission to the eventual outcome. In the past, I would always reach a time where I would tell myself, “Oh well, it is what it is, if he wants me enough to come back, we’ll see if we can work it out. I’m over being so demanding with him, I’m fine with just going with the flow.”
    And, somehow, he always seemed to be able to sense when I reached that point, because lo and behold, he’d hoover soon after I got there. I’ve certainly made it harder for him to hoover, but I can’t close all the channels. And it’s Christmas.

    Is all of this normal? Will I think about him like this forever? Will the cotton film just slowly get thicker and thicker until there is no emotion left in the thoughts that come?

  2. Just a “short” side note regarding the feeling of love in general( not referring just to romantic love) and the feelings of joy and happiness. This is actually the “shortened” version!

    I understand and respect your perspective where you regard any feeling ( or circumstance) that could bring you any downside as threatening and jeopardasing your effectiveness.
    I understand ( under your perspective) as well that you do not need the feelings of joy and happiness either in order to enhance your effectiveness. You believe you are highly effective the way you function.

    It is understandable because after all, one cannot miss , long after or appreciate the potentiality of something one never has experienced( or felt) and never will.
    I understand that.

    This time I am afraid I have to disagree with your belief regarding the feeling of love . As I understand , your belief is based on what you have seen and on what you have been told although you haven’t ever felt it ( and as I understand, you never will).
    That is your belief and I respect it but that does not mean that invariably it is the way you describe it.

    Correlation does not imply causation.

    That is to say : Love is NOT the cause of pain, suffering ,despair , frustration, hurt, sadness ,guilt etc.
    There is indeed a correlation between love and some other feelings
    -being the impact and intensity different from person to person not necessarily turning a person to be ineffective hampering actions and decision-making.

    This intensity depends highly on the existing ( or non existing) underlying deep rooted conditioned patterns ( i.ex due to abandonment , abuse and trauma in general) during childhood upbringing , genetics ,in learned patterns etc. not being the same for all.

    Most of all , it depends on the ability to control the emotional thinking and the improvement of the same.
    Not all persons feel the pain at the same devastating /dramatic degree as others do .
    Sadness and pain do not lead invariably to ineffectiveness. It may even be a driving motor for moving forward, advancing and personal development.

    Furthermore, there is as well a clear correlation of love with positive feelings such as joy, happiness, fulfilment etc. that give a person an additional potential of being even more effective enhancing and propelling both action and decision making.

    The “negative “ feelings that may be correlated to love are akin to the feelings that the narcissist has such as anger, fury, jealousy ,wounding that can turn him/her to be highly ineffective if he /she can’t control them.They are also subject to emotional thinking that affects their effectiveness.

    What I do not understand is why people that have the ability to feel love, joy,
    and happiness are willing or even considering to trade away these feelings to be (?)or think (?)as the narcissist does( something I find impossible to do because they are not narcissists themselves) voided of these feelings diminishing consequently their own potentiality for thriving.

    I see the ability to love and feel joy not as a hinder but rather as an asset that increases the potential of fulfilment , thriving , developing, motivation and empowerment.
    I would never trade away my ability to feel love ,happiness nor joy.

    In comparison with the narcissist , we are endowed with other “assets “( in this case feelings) they do not have access to that give us the possibility of achieving an even higher degree of effectiveness:

    We have access to two worlds that provide us with the potential of even more control and power. What would be better than attaining control and power (mainly over ourselves) and doing that with happiness and joy?

    I find that combination of the two worlds fascinating : really invaluable and invincible. That combination belongs to us. It is just we who are entitled and have access to that.

  3. HG,

    Why aren’t you posting my comment? Are you afraid of starting a debate with me, because you know that you will, unfortunately, lose!

    Doesn’t matter how much you try to convince yourself of whatever you want, Mr. Tudor. GOOD IS ALWAYS STRONGER THAN EVIL. Why? Because evil is built on manipulation and anything that is built in manipulation is always weak and exposed to be collapsed.

    Thanks for your knowledge HG, I always wanted to use it against all narcs but never against you. Now it is time to make some discussion, unless you choose to hold and release comments as you wish!

    1. Not at all it is a long comment and I do not have time to address it at present, but I shall. Nor will I lose.

      1. OK HG, I will be waiting for your response for my first comment. But please understand that you are entering a battle and you know who is the winner! Of course it’s ME.

        At least you don’t sulk like midrange school.

        1. JJ
          Oh dear. That is a lot of confident smack. You better bring your A game.

          *** hands blindfolds out to everyone else and whispers: here put this on. It could get ugly ***

          You get the popcorn and I’ll grab some towels and ice.

        1. You mean, the one who laughs last, laughs longest. That early mistake does not augur well for you JJ!

          1. I’m actually looking forward to this. JJ, I love you, but you will be crushed. My money is on HG. Every battle is won before it is fought.

      2. That’s funny, HG. But I will not laugh.

        I know the idiom but I wanted to write something from my own style !

        The first “last”, refer to the finality I mean last (person, thing, etc. . . ) . The second “last” refer to continuity.

        See, I can make words rhyme though English is not my first language. It will be a big loss for you if I beat you in a debate in your own language, HG!

        I will then, have to write an article about it, with a title “ Beating the sexy boy”

          1. I’ll be sure not to drop a match. Theres leaking fuel already Sexy Boy (wink wink).

          2. I’m afraid we may be let down. As they say on the squad, “there ain’t no competition Ike the real competition!”

      3. Thank you, MB. But maybe it would be better if you kept your mouth closed!

        Am waiting to do actions in the debate, I don’t want to waste my time in blah blah blah. Enough talking, JJ said.

        1. JJ
          MB was only expressing concern for you in a light-hearted way that the deck is stacked against you and that you will likely embarass yourself. The line that “every battle is won before it is fought” with a narcissist is something that has been discussed here. You will lose the “debate” as you call it because it is already evident that:

          A) Your opponent outranks you easily.
          B) You have already demonstrated your inability to harness your emotions in your overly aggressive response to MB.
          C) You have lost any advantage by warning your opponent. If you have been here any length of time you will know that HG does not need any time or warning. That is just a tip for any further throw-downs you’re planning. You would need the advantage of surprise to even get out of the gate.

      4. Jj is this a sneak peek? Obviously my money is on THE MAN but all this talk you better not disappoint!!

      5. Thank you all, the good readers of HG. Your comments have given me enough fuel, though am not a narcissist.

        Just to clarify my point. I have replied to HG in a comment, which is my first comment and you all judged me before reading my first comment (it’s still in moderation). Which is understandable because you viewed me as someone who is entering the blog to attack HG Tudor. And that is WRONG.

        I am a long standing reader of HG Tudor. And I appreciate his work and if I have a chance in the future to nominate his work for a reward or to make it more popular. I will do it without hesitation.

        I also understand that between now and then, there are people who enter HG Tudor’s blog only to attack him. Please understand am not one of them.

        My main purpose is to make a debate with HG Tudor. The evil mind. I want to make a debate between good and evil. And there will be no winner and no loser. But there will be someone who will come with a stronger argument. This is the point.

        I attacked HG’s evil side not his good and respectful work. And my main goal is not to attack. When I noticed that HG is holding my first comment in moderation. I wanted to provoke him to make him post it. That’s why I used that way in talking. My debate will rely in respect and politeness.

        Generally, it is not wise to have such a debate in HG’s blog because he got the advantage in terms of his followers, in owning the blog and controlling the things that should be posted. However, I prefer to stay anonymous and I don’t care if all of you stand in HG’s side. I will go for the debate no matter what.

        Finally, I hope that this debate will make HG re- think about exhibiting the evil attitude and about regarding people as objects rather than treating them as another respectful human beings. Because I see potential and wisdom in him.

        If HG keeps resisting to change. (which is not my purpose, my goal is to debate) I think that we should not blame him. It is the evil genies that is controlling him. At the end he can’t experience the full emotional spectrum, that we experience. So, it would be impossible for him to change!

        So, let’s start HG, either here or how about making a new blog post with a title “ Good vs Evil” at the end we want people to read and get the benefits.

        I now see you as my opponent (while involved in the debate). So, I will have to change my way in talking with you.


        1. JJ
          This is what I see in each paragraph:

          1. Seduction hoover; we are painted white (for now).
          2. The narcissist is never wrong.
          3. Future fake.
          4. Facade maintenance.
          5. Asserting your sense of superiority (someone who will come with a stronger argument. That is the point)
          6. Provocation (provoke him to make him post it), control and facade maintenance.
          7. You are the beleaguered victim (I don’t care if all of you stand in HG’s side. I will go for the debate no matter what.)
          8. Lack of understanding about NPD/delusional (I hope that this debate will make HG re- think …)
          9. HG isn’t evil. Again, lack of understanding and empathy, yet you claim you are a long standing reader.
          10. Your suggestion to make a new blog post “ Good vs Evil” is evidence of your sense of entitlement and control.
          11. I now see you as my opponent.

          NarcissistsTwin Line’s of defence: (and let’s not avoid recognising the fact that we regard you as our opponent)

          Thank you for letting me practice my cognitive narcissism, I really appreciate it.

          1. Thank you WS!
            My plan is to learn to think like a narcissist. It is coming along swimmingly.

          2. K

            I needed that laugh, Thank you!

            Wear the narcissism, be the narcissist, you are the narcissist now that I have written that it gave me chills….

            My ex would tell me if you want to win a battle use logic, you will lose every time you use emotion. My Grandfather would say something similar to HG when he was teaching me how to play chess.

          3. My pleasure Twilight!
            That was a funny movie and Michael Caine is one of my favorite actors.

            Logic is the way to go IMO. Emotions are great but they can cloud your thinking.

          4. MB
            I like Sandra Bullock. My husband REALLY likes Sandra Bullock (that’s his free pass lol). I liked her better in Two Weeks Notice with Hugh Grant.
            Back to narcissism though. I read Girl On The Train before it got huge and I thought: this would make a good movie, but depends on what they would choose to highlight. Turns out they did a pretty good job of demonstrating narcissism and its effects (excellent examples of gaslighting and smearing) but of course most people won’t identify it as that. It’s interesting to watch when you apply what we’ve learned here. If anyone saw it before coming here, I recommend watching it again with the knowledge that HG has provided us.

          5. Emily Blunt is decent in it although I didn’t see any need to shift the location of the story.

          6. There were some inconsistencies between the movie and the book. The book was better. (As is usually the case.) But they did a great job. I didn’t think Sandra Bullock was in that either. I was a bit confused. My husband likes Sandra Bullock also. Wonder how many have her as their free pass? Ha ha

          7. MB
            Sandra Bullock is not in GOTT. You talking about her in movies just reminded me of GOTT and narcissism. Sorry for the confusion.

          8. HG
            Well they claim that you’re such a bunch of drunks over there that it wouldn’t seem she had a drinking problem, but I think we all know that the prevalent thinking in the US (at least in Hollywood) is that everything there is more interesting.

          9. Washat? I’m schtill at lunch, no, no, I’ve only had one cunt drinkstable, amas Schober ash a joodge honest hic!

          10. NA, I liked Two Weeks Notice also. I also like Hugh Grant (Notting Hill ❤️) although he doesn’t do the stereotype of the British having bad teeth any good at all.

            I read Girl on The Train and thought they did an excellent job in converting it to a movie. I saw it at the theater. Lots of aha moments in there! I think I will watch it again (if my nerves can stand it) now that I’m a HGTU student.

      6. Am listening to my favorite song until HG decide to post my first comment.

        Dear HG. I will wait for 3 days. In case my first comment was not posted. I WIN you LOSE.

        – The first day was yesterday.
        – Today is the second day.
        – Tomorrow, 5th of December is the last day.

        I can’t wait longer, I have other things to do.

        Best wishes.

        1. Unfortunately for you, you do not dictate terms, I do, since this is my blog. As is well established, longer posts and those with questions in them can remain in moderation for a significant period of time. Some of the established readers have waited weeks in some instances.

          I am currently travelling and therefore am dipping in and out of moderating the blog as and when I can. Your question/comment will be addressed when I have time to do so. Do also understand the more you push for a response, the less likely it is you will receive one, largely because I regard it as ill-mannered. If you regard 5th December as a cut-off point so be it, it will save me the necessity of considering your first post further and replying to it.

          I would point out that your comments are rather causing you to lose the argument without me having to do much in response.

        1. My pleasure nunya biz
          Once I laughed so hard while reading the comments, I inhaled my tea and I ended up laughing and coughing simultaneously.

          There is never a dull moment on narcsite.

      7. Goodbye JJ! 👋👋

        Guess I’m kind of relieved we don’t have to read all the cockiness that was most likely gonna follow.

        (“I will wait for 3 days. In case my first comment was not posted. I WIN you LOSE.

        – The first day was yesterday.
        – Today is the second day.
        – Tomorrow, 5th of December is the last day.

        I can’t wait longer”


        Have you been reading on this website at all? 😩

        1. I’m starting to feel bad. I think our guest may have wandered over from another chapter in the DSM.

      8. I see JJ is already reverting from their initial braggadoccio and adopting a more defensive tone, explaining themself, etc…. the battle has indeed been lost before it ever had a chance of beginning.

        I would say thanks for the laughs, but found the whole fancy crusade rather boring. It does, however, further showcase HG’s mature, calm, asseritve and confident personality.

      9. Dear HG,

        Time is up.

        I just have one hope before I go. I know that as a site owner, you have access to some information about the person who post. Such as, Email address and IP address.

        I hope that you will not use this information to re- post any comment under my name.
        Just like what you did when you removed the link of my favorite song. (If you make the editing to my comment, it is not far that you will post comments!)

        I believe that a debate must take place somewhere where both parties have access to the same tools. For example, somewhere that is neutral to both parties, not in a place where someone have advantage in owning the blog and posting comments.

        Anyway, I was not hoping for anything but your response for my first comment, which I can see that you have no response for. Is it because the fear of losing? or other reasons. I understand that you are busy during these days, but I can see you posting and responding to other comments and you even posted my recent comments which were longer than my first one. Unfortunately, this reflects nothing but a fear of facing me in a debate.

        Bye for now Mr. Tudor,


        1. I only ever post under my name.

          I have addressed and disposed of your earlier observations. I said I would address them when I had time to do so and I have done so.

          I am confident that that will not be your last post.

    2. Oh hahahaha lmao JJ this almost child’s play with you. Your debate skills leave a bit to desired.

      Seriously who is dumb enough to go to a Narcs page and try to dress him down. Very very foolish move my dear. You clearly have some reading comprehension issues.

      If I’m not mistaken HG is a psychopath at least I thought I read that only a very foolish person taunts a psychopath. Believe me they have If ways of getting to you that have even entered your imagination

      Very stupid move

    3. It never fails every couple of months some goof ball gets inn here thinking they’re a bad ass. I find this annoying AF cause the rest of us are just trying learn and heal and receive constructive criticism which is all har in and of itself then someone has to deflect all of the instructors attention to them.

      Don’t go on someones blog and start dressing them down and if you do that with a Narcissist you are a special kind of stupid

      You seem to not understand you’ve already lose. You seek him. He downy seek you

      Annoying AF!

      1. Well this was a great thread with a lot of good info on it until it turned into the im gonna school HG show. I’m here for infirnstion and help on getting myself out of this entanglement so I hate when people get and spoil it.

        Maybe one day he will just say screw it I don’t need to put up this crap. I wouldn’t blame him.

        As I have said, I think it is rude as hell to go on a page where you are trying to get information and help and start asserting your superiority over the person or subject matter obviously if you had command of the subject matter you wouldn’t be here in the first place

        Done with this thread. Peace out

    4. You seem ill-tempered, whiny. Like “HG” who doesn’t know you—plots to specifically hold your post because you are special enough to be “singled out.” You lack polish as he would say..

      1. A person must be a special kind of stupid to want to be singled out by a narcissist of HG’s calibre.

        Anyway, the person providing the biggest challenge to us is ourselves, and we ourselves are the only person worth challenging, provided we’re interested in changing. Everything else is just play-acting.

  4. HG Said:

    “Your version of ‘better’ is not the same as ours. Why would I want to suffer being miserable, crying through frustration or hurt, being weighed down by guilt so it hampers actions and decision-making. No thank you.”


    So, HG. Are you saying that you want to stay as you are “ a narc” and make other people suffer?

    Admit it HG, these are just excuses because you CAN’T CHANGE.

    And why do you always look at the dark side of normal people? Do you think that we want to become narcissists or psychopaths, to suffer all the time from restlessness, being denied the feeling of happiness and joy and being anxious and bothered because of the continuous thinking of finding a good source of fuel??!

    In addition, to the pathological lying and extreme jealousy. This is absolutely NOT things that we want to experience either.

    The things that you mentioned are temporal emotions and they don’t last forever. In contrast to the negative feelings that narcissists experience ALWAYS.

    Also, Mr.Tudor. Why are you so bothered about our decision making, I heard you mentioning this in many occasions. Good news for you, we can make the best decision as NORMAL leaders and we can control our emotions of guilt. In fact, sometimes these emotions are good for leaders because it’s needed in some situations as it shows caring for other people’s well-beings and it reflect humanity.

    I never heard of a psychopath, who built a great empire, or was a perfect leader. All of the examples that I remember are about good people who cared for the well-being of others.

    1. They are not excuses at all and you have completely misunderstood the point. I have repeatedly explained that you cannot cure narcissism, one can, where there is self-awareness with regard to the Greater, modify behaviours to a degree, thus being prosocial, but the inherent behaviours are hard-wired because ultimately it is a defence mechanism. I do not make people suffer all of the time, many people benefit from what I do (and I do not just mean through my blog and books which have assisted hundreds of thousands of people) and many people enjoy my company and what I achieve. Some people benefit, some people suffer – that is the way it is, my needs come first. I am not burdened by guilt or remorse. I do not experience sadness or misery, not would I – they serve no sensible purpose to me. Windstorm explained how crying serves a purpose to her, I understand that and that is fair enough, but she is an empath and I am not, so I do not wish to experience those emotions because they are pointless from my perspective.

      “And why do you always look at the dark side of normal people? Do you think that we want to become narcissists or psychopaths, to suffer all the time from restlessness, being denied the feeling of happiness and joy and being anxious and bothered because of the continuous thinking of finding a good source of fuel??!” I do not understand this point at all. I do not always look at the dark side of normal people. If you read my work you will see that I comment from differing angles with regard to empaths, normals and narcissists. So your comment is incorrect.

      “In addition, to the pathological lying and extreme jealousy. This is absolutely NOT things that we want to experience either. ” do you mean you do not want to do this or you do not want to be on the receiving end of this as your use of the word experience could mean either. If it is the former, then empathic people would not behave in such a way anyway. If it is the latter, well obviously nobody wants to be on the receiving end of the product of pathlogical lying and/or jealousy.

      “The things that you mentioned are temporal emotions and they don’t last forever. In contrast to the negative feelings that narcissists experience ALWAYS. ” I think you mean temporary rather than temporal. Indeed they are temporary albeit frequent for some people and even when temporary they are still weaknesses as I have explained previously. We do not always experience negative feelings, where we do, they serve a purpose for us in order to drive us forward, to protect ourselves and continue to survive and thrive. Of course some of us are better at harnessing those feelings than others.

      “Also, Mr.Tudor. Why are you so bothered about our decision making, I heard you mentioning this in many occasions. Good news for you, we can make the best decision as NORMAL leaders and we can control our emotions of guilt. In fact, sometimes these emotions are good for leaders because it’s needed in some situations as it shows caring for other people’s well-beings and it reflect humanity. ” Your decision-making is often driven by emotion rather than logic (when I say your, I mean victims as a whole) and emotional decisions are poor decisions. Cold, hard logic is the key. Why am I bothered? Er because the whole point of what I write is designed to give people insight, understanding and assistance.

      “I never heard of a psychopath, who built a great empire, or was a perfect leader. All of the examples that I remember are about good people who cared for the well-being of others.” There is no such thing as a perfect leader because you will always find someone who will disagree with the methodology of governance adopted by that leader. Take the former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher – some believe she was an excellent leader as she created significant wealth through the investment in financial services and deregulation of the city, that she broke the strangehold the unions had over the country and industry (which saw power cuts and a three day week imposed in 1974). Others see her as widening the gap between rich and poor, ripping the heart out of communities which relied on mining coal (as part of her breaking the unions during the Miners’ Strike) amongst other complaints. There will always be some complaint levied against a leader therefore you will never find one who is perfect.

      You have never heard of a psychopath who built a great empire? Try Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great, Julius Casear, Atilla the Hun for instance off the top of my head. Certainly their methods of rule would not invite the description of being ‘perfect’ but did the build great empires – yes. You will find that the people who built empires, maintained them, drove revolution etc were invariably from our camp than the empathic one.

      So, I have responded to your observations and addressed them all and in so doing demonstrated that you have either been incorrect or you have expressed an opinion (and opinions are just that and that alone) and therefore the outcome is entirely clear. I need not add anything further. You made your points, I have addressed them and disposed of them.

      1. Dear HG,


        I really have a greater respect for you now.

        Should I consider this the beginning of the debate? If so, please choose the time and the date where you want this to take place. I don’t want to pressure you. You have mentioned that you are busy.

        Also, please don’t consider my last comment (it’s not posted yet). Because I mentioned that it was my last post, but as long as you responded to my argument today, I would want to proceed in this.

        Full respect,


        1. Your respect for me is appreciated JJ. I would consider it the end of the debate however as I have addressed and disposed of your points. You made them, I responded. Fin.

          As for your other comment, it was already posted about an hour or so ago where I stated that I knew it would not be your last post.

      2. Dang HG

        You sure are pleasant for a Narc. I’m not even a Narc and this would have irritated the shit out of me.

        I’m not sure about the whole “respect” thing I think that’s a load of shit. You don’t go on Narcs blog or anyone’s and make those kinds of comments and have respect not in my opinion. It’s not like this is a debate forum

        What I saw is someone now feeling a bit vulnerable that they did this and having the sudden realization that they have just taken on a psychopath that may now have a certain amount of information about them that’s what I see

        To each their own but it seemed like a poor decision to me.

        You are who you are HG you didn’t ask for this but it is what your are. I didn’t ask to be a Codepebdent but I am. I appreciate the info here and get a little cranky when people do this
        And threaten our access to it by irritating you and you just one day say screw it I’m done I don’t need them they need me and that is the reality of this dynamic

        1. Thank you Lori. The fact is I see precisely what certain people are trying to do and it irritates them more when I remain courteous and factual. Occasionally people mistake my correction of inaccuracy as attacking them – I understand how they make that mistake – they have a defensiveness and therefore read what I have written through that lens of defensiveness. Furthermore, they know what I am and that will colour their interpretation also so that they see an attack when there is not one. What people need to remember is that I am not a stupid man – there is no need to attack my readers and indeed it is a unrewarding step to take. Correcting somebody is not attacking them. If I wrote to someone “you are a fucking idiot with comments such as that, what an absolute moron you are with shit for brains” that is an attack and is devaluation, but you will not find any such comment here on the blog. Why? Because I am professional, I do not need to write in such terms and therefore do not do so. I recognise that the vast majority of my readers are polite, courteous and want knowledge. I do not mind if they call me a bastard – I can be a bastard, that is fair enough. However, I will always correct inaccuracies about me and our kind because that is part of the purpose of this blog and if that means dissecting someone’s comment in a logical and unemotional fashion – which is of course what I am very skilled at doing – then I shall do so.

          1. HG, narcissism has such a stigma and some people won’t allow themselves to see the benefits. The creation of this site has not only educated but has allowed a safe environment for us to interact with a narcissist so we can see the different layers and how some could benefit ourselves outside of a relationship environment.

            If you were to attach instead of correct it would only discredit your work. People would not want to listen, read and learn from you. You have to admit though, it does feel good to write “fucking idiot” and “shit for brains” even if it is just an example. Double meaning maybe?? jK don’t answer that.

          2. No double meaning, I will not undermine the quality of my work with such attacks, I have no need to.

          3. HG, I see that as the truth. I hope my comment came off as a joke and not offensive.

        2. Lori
          That is how I see it also. That is why I laugh at the lack of intelligence that allows some to allege that I am in love with him. I value and feel protective of the resources he provides here, and want it to remain available to others. I also respect that he is a human being with very different behaviours and aims than mine but contributing more to the world I live in than many of his detractors nonetheless.

      3. Oh really Lori?

        Come here sweetie and read this comment it is for you, I can’t find a reply bottom for your comment.

        First of all, I have read all the written comments about me. All of them are inaccurate. But I don’t like to waste my time replying to them. And I don’t care about correcting the inaccuracy. I know who am and those comment doesn’t define me.

        Coming to your comment,

        “What I saw is someone now feeling a bit vulnerable that they did this and having the sudden realization that they have just taken on a psychopath that may now have a certain amount of information about them that’s what I see “

        – First, never say this disgusting word about me, ever again ,“vulnerable”.
        – Second, am not afraid because HG have got information about me. I know what am doing since the beginning. Am fully aware that HG can check the IP Address and the email address. However, I didn’t change my IP Address, though I can. And the email address that am using to post these comments, is useless to me. I don’t use it.

        Thank you for expressing your opinion, Lori. But be aware that when you write a comment, you are not writing a comment about the two letters J & J. There is a person who is sitting behind the screen, and this person is not afraid of narcissists nor psychopaths, because am also narcissistic but in a good way.

        Am also aware that you are a person, and you are a fan of HG, that’s why I would not want to talk harshly to you in front of him, especially that you mentioned that you are a codependent. In the same way, I don’t want to talk harshly to anyone who said bad things about me.

        One last thing, the comments that were made about me, were absolutely inaccurate, but I don’t care about responding to them because they entertain me and they made me laugh.

        Let me finish my reply to HG at the same post. This is for you HG, I really appreciate the fact that you have replied to my points, but that was not a debate! You responded, and you said that’s it! But I will respect your decision of not wanting me to reply to your points, though I have some comments about them.

        And yes Lori, I didn’t come to HG blog to attack him. I have mentioned that I am a long standing reader of HG. The point is, I like my things to be finished fast, I don’t like pending tasks. If what I want have been delivered then am cool if it is not, I will do all the things to make it happen. That’s why I tried to annoy HG, because I wanted my business to be finished. At the earliest. And I appreciate his response.

        Though I think that writing this clarification has wasted my time, but I wanted to share some feedback about what has been written about me.

        1. Feel free to respond if you wish, you will not improve your position. It was a debate – you advanced certain points and I responded to them and disposed of them.

      4. JJ

        Year reality lol and point proven. Didn’t you say that was your last post? Abd I believe HG said that wouldn’t be you last post. Let me enlighten you on the scoreboard

        Lori 1

        JJ. 0

        I won’t put HG s up his were capped about 25 points ago

        And that my dear is reality

        Anytime you want to stop directing attention to yourself that would be great

        Best wishes

      5. JJ

        Btw you don’t direct me as what to say or not to say about you. I do. You sweetheart have some clear boundary issues

        Perhaps you think I’m a doormat Codepebdent. While that can be the case with me, It is often quite the opposite especially in non romantic interactions

      6. JJ

        Now you are just pissing me off witb your a “good narcissist “ bullshit. Did you just make that up ? There is no “good narcissist” and the closest match to that would be a Codepebdent . God you just make shut up as you go. No you just want to look like a savior but a bad ass at the same time so you just make shit up

        Everyone stay tuned for a new DSM that inckudes “the good narcissist” I can’t stop f ing laughing.

        You aren’t scared of if psychopath? Well then missy you are even more stupid than I originally thought. Let me enlighten you. A psychopath can murdet someone then go meet his girl friend for lunch. If you aren’t scared of that you are a special kind stupid. Taunting a psychopath is idiotic.

        Let me guess you have a magic cape that protects you from psychopaths. Yeah you just roll with that

      7. Narc Angel

        Oh yeah I remember the whole you are having a mmmmmm affair with HG thing. That was funny as shit. I would say highly unlikely but I’m the chick who was having mostly an online affair for 3 years so anything is possible look but geez knowing what you know I’d say theres 99.9 percent chance that wouldn’t happen although I can absolutely see how ir could happen with a reader. He is very charming.

        This whole thing irritated me because I just don’t see how anyone can get on here start claiming that know what he feels, he’s a fraud ba blah blah. I want to say why are you here? If you know all that why are you continually coming here? It makes no sense. None. That’s how I know they are full of shit. The fact is they are coming here gathering information and trying to act like they lnow best. Please.

        I kniw fbat having jumped into this is probably me exhibited some of my Codepebdent behavior. I could have scrolled by but damn it’s pidsing me off that people trying to ruin it for everyone

      8. Dear Lori,

        Thank you for expressing your opinion. I should not have replied to you in the first place. Because replying to HG’s fans, distract me from the main purpose which is debating.

        To all, please stop distracting me, I want to focus on the discussion. And I will not reply to anyone, anymore. Say whatever you want.

        And yes. Lori. I forgave you for whatever you said about me. And I apologize if my comments to you were commanding or hurtful.

        The same goes to MB. I forgave you for whatever you said about me. And please do accept my apology if my comment to you were hurtful.

        I don’t think that I replied to anyone else. And thank you all for expressing your opinion about me.

        Now, can you please leave me alone. Because I want to focus on the debate !

        Dear HG,

        Thank you for posting my first comment and replying to it. This indicate that the discussion has started.

        I will respond to your points by 11th of December. Until that day, would you answer these questions, please:

        – Would you choose to live in a country ruled by a psychopathic dictatorial leader or democratic good leader?
        – How would you behave if you were a king of an empire or a country?

        Thank you.

      9. JJ

        “I should not have replied” didn’t like the score nosed you?

        Come now you knew you were gonna reply lol. You have boundary issues and poor impulse comttols

        I mean really wasn’t your last comment about 10 comments ago? And Lori goes in with a jumper Swish! 2 pts

        Updated scoreboard

        Lori 3

        JJ 0

      10. Please stop distracting you ? As if it’s all about you ? Ahahaha. That is funny. I suppose it is to the extent of you embarrassing yourself abd exhibiting all sorts of “interesting behavior”

        Hmm you really think your special. This really is a crack up. I should stop responding everyone should then we could all watch you start banging your head against the wall. But dang it this is so easy I can’t help myself.

        Now put on that magic cape !

        Ahahaha oh shut this is funny

      11. And good lord JJ forgive me for what ? I didn’t ask for any forgiveness. I haven’t done shit to you.

        Seriously woman you need a shrink and fast. Something about you isn’t right. One can only imagine what it is but my guess it’s in the cluster b family lol

      12. Dear HG,

        I have promised to respond to your points on the 11th of December/2018.

        You keep repeating that you disposed my points , I think that you are not interested in completing the argument.

        If this is the case, this will be my last response to you. Please read it. Thank you in advance. And sorry because I started my request for the debate with aggressive language, I would like to apologize in particular for the point of mentioning the emotions that a narcissist and a psychopath can’t experience, this point doesn’t reflect a logical argument, instead it reflect mockery, am in a position of debating to defend good, and because of this position in particular and my morality in general, I would like to apologize to you Mr. Tudor if that point has caused you any distress or psychological harm. I have apologized for everyone and I forgot to apologize to you. I will try to make my response as short as I can.

        My very first response to you were just an opinion and I wanted you to respond to it. Now I will present you with facts.

        I will focus on the leaders point.

        First, Alexander the great.

        – You mentioned in your response many leaders which you state that they are psychopaths. Many of them might be truly psychopaths. However, Alexander the great is excluded, because:

        – I have studied his life through my years at school and university. None of the text books has mentioned ever that he is a psychopath! (If it’s about the incidence of killing, a lot, if not all kings and queens has committed such a thing).

        – Alexander the great suffered from something called Oedipus complex. Which refer to the sexual desire of a son toward his mother while extremely hating the father.

        – “His personality also left a lot to be desired since he was prone to emotional outbursts and was impulsive. His mood would change from self-controlled discussion to uncontrollable passion, often leading to violence. Ephippus ascribes the violence to his being melancholic, 5 which he put down to a preponderance of black bile in Alexander’s system. Today, one might think that Alexander suffered from ADD, ADHD, or even bipolarity”. (Worthington, 2004)

        Worthington, Ian. Alexander the Great : Man and God, Routledge, 2004. ProQuest Ebook Central.


        I will compare between the psychopathic leaders that you mentioned and other empathic/Normal ones. And facts can present who is GREATER !

        Table doesn’t show in the post. Thus, I will try putting the comparison in points.

        There are various models of leadership. I have done a research to find the profile of a leader. Our examples of leaders that are mentioned are from the ancient time.

        The ancient time standards of leadership differ from the modern time standards. Because the people that I will do the comparison about have lived in different era. The best leadership model will be the “Aristotle’s Theory of the Virtues of Temperance, Courage, and Generosity as Part of a Universal Model for Leadership Practices Today”. I found this chapter from the book called “leadership through the classics”. As the best choice for this comparison. Because it gathers the best qualities that define a good leader from ancient time to modern time.
        Those principles are 11 in number:
        (1) temperance, or self-control in relation to physical pleasures and pains
        (2) rational courage, the appropriate response in relation to situations involving fear
        (3) rational generosity;
        (4) rational anger;
        (5) rational humor;
        (6) rational friendships;
        (7) sociability;
        (8) rational pride;
        (9) rational ambition
        (10) high- mindedness;
        (11) self-knowledge.

        • Prastacos, Gregory P., Fuming Wang, and Klas E. Soderquist. Leadership and Management in a Changing World : Lessons from Ancient Eastern and Western Philosophy. Springer, Berlin, Heidelberg, 2013;2012;.chapter 10

        I will now compare your four examples, Mr. Tudor with my five examples. My examples that I will bring are from a book called “ The 100: A Ranking Of The Most Influential Persons In History” written by Michael H. Hart.

        So, your examples are :

        1- Genghis Khan.
        2- Alexander the Great
        3- Julius Casear
        4- Atilla the Hun

        I will not choose an example of my own. My examples will be the top five influential people from the one hundred. Which are:

        1- Muhammed.
        2- Isaac Newton.
        3- Jesus Christ.
        4- Buddha.
        5- Confucius. (Hart, 1978)

        Now the main goal is to compare each person to the above 11 leadership principles. In addition, to examine whether the person is empathic/Normal or psychopathic.

        In short, I can say if the individual is empathic/ Normal as a great leader, they will display most of the above principles. In contrast, if the individual is psychopathic as a great leader, I will exclude;

        – temperance, or self-control in relation to physical pleasures and pains ( Because of the psychopath impulsivity)
        – rational generosity; ( Because of the psychopath sense of entitlement).
        – rational anger, ( Psychopaths are in a state of fury, they have no conscious, no sense of guilt, no remorse and they lack empathy, that’s why most of the Massacres have been committed by them. I can’t see a person deciding to commit a Massacre while feeling happy, the main reason must be anger).
        – rational friendships; ( Because psychopaths view people as objects. Thus, there are no true friendships).
        – rational ambition ( I excluded this point, because psychopaths and narcissists live in a fantasy of unlimited success, so their ambition can’t be described as rational).
        – self-knowledge. ( Biggest hit against narcissists, most narcissists doesn’t know what they are, in particular Lesser and Mid range schools. Even Greater narcissists require some assistance to access full self awareness. Psychopaths who are born psychopaths most of them don’t have insights to themselves, they just know that they are different than other people).

        According to your observation. Mr. Tudor, you stated that the above people in your list are psychopaths. I have excluded Alexander the Great because of the reason that I mentioned above. However, I will label the rest as psychopaths without doing any further search to save time.

        Now, going to my list.
        I have the first person and the third one ( Muhammed and Jesus Christ) These two induvial are considered as prophets ( In some religions Jesus Christ considered as God). Thus, they display patience and empathy towards others. Religious sources can prove this point.
        The second person ( Isaac Newton). He got through traumatic childhood. He suffered from certain psychological disorders but he was NOT labeled as a psychopath nor a narcissist. I will provide some description for his personality:

        “Newton has been said in the past to have had a depressive personality with a strongly paranoid streak, to have been a manic-depressive, a man who could not cope with the hostility of others and could easily feel slighted, who suffered from severe fluctuations of mood and behaviour, want of appetite, insomnia, outbursts of rage and violence, and who lived in isolation accompanied by a marked suspi- ciousness and distrust of others. “ (Keynes, 1995)

        Keynes, Milo. “The Personality of Isaac Newton.” Notes and Records of the Royal Society of London, vol. 49, no. 1, 1995, pp. 1–56. JSTOR, JSTOR,

        The last Two, Buddha and Confucius. I have done a short research about them. The result shows that these two individuals encouraged moral behavior and good and they were liked by the people. I can conclude that they are not psychopaths according to the resources that I have accessed about them.

        To sum up, according to Michael Hart’s book which he discussed with many other thinkers before writing his final list of the most influential people. The top five people in the list are NOT psychopaths.
        I have one last thing to add. The people that you, Mr. Tudor mentioned were ranked in the list as following:
        – Genghis Khan, Number 29 in the list.
        – Alexander the Great, Number 33 in the list.
        – Julius Cesare, Number 67 in the list.
        – Atilla the Hun, Not mentioned in the list.

        Finally, I totally respect your point of view Mr. HG Tudor, and this is not done to prove that you are wrong at all. Let’s even forget that it was a debate and consider it as a discussion.

        All the best,

  5. Lori
    Yes HG knows what he is but has no desire to change he sees it as being superior, having the upper hand when dealing with people and having an advantage over others also as he has stated he is terrified of change.
    Being codependent is a loss of self just like the narcissist.
    Very difficult to recognise and very difficult to change patterns of behaviour.
    As a starting point i just try and listen to what people are saying and look at that differently than I used to, it’s amazing how you can normalise bad behaviour and also normalise things that are said that are completely unacceptable.
    I am also working on boundaries and one of those has been no longer tolerating my stepfather and my mothers enabling of him, which she has spent a lifetime of saying she hates confrontation !!! She hates arguing bla bla . I no longer tolerate all these excuses of bad behaviour under the guise of pretending this is all ok. So in speaking out about this i am now estranged from my mother and it will be my first christmas ever that i don’t speak to her , i have also been completely smeared by my stepfather. All of this and dealing with ending it finally with ex narc , not been an easy 4 years.
    I am also working on saying No to things I don’t want to do or if I just don’t feel like doing something I don’t do it and I don’t feel like I have to apologise for it.
    We have to accept that both the narcissist and the empath are equally as faulty and stop seeing the empath as some saintly figure versus the evil narcissist !!
    It’s hard to make the changes , i’ve lost my mum through this but i realise if i’d called her out on this crap at anytime the outcome would have been the same , could have happened 20 years ago or more, so of course it’s easier not to rock the boat, as we see it. Telling the truth and setting boundaries gets rid of people in your life and that’s hard sometimes but the alternative is to continue with the fake forever ….. Boundaries are Narc Repellant

  6. I think it’s also a lot to do with Empaths, Codependants not being able to deal with rejection, I think the pain of rejection equals the narcs , both out of proportion compared to the Normals feeling of rejection. Most of the time you’ve seen the monster and know that you could never be happy with this person but can’t stand the fact they don’t want you anymore. When they come back and hoover it relieves the pain of rejection and proves in some warped way that we are lovable, do we really want HIM back, they make you miserable 80% of the time. I think for both the core problems are control and rejection just in different ways. It’s a fake relationship on both sides in many ways, in my opinion. The narc will never experience real love from a normal healthy person because they will never be in a relationship with a normal healthy person. Empaths and Codependants or whatever we are have a chance of a normal healthy relationship if we can start to recognise our own disorder and focus on fixing that, rather than wanting to fix Narcs.

    1. Lisa
      I agree with you through observation. It seems for many it’s the rejection (real or perceived) that propels the empath forward when they know it is futile. This is with narcissists or anyone in their lives. I have witnessed so many people trying to “win over” those who disregard or abuse them and often go to great lengths. It seems almost a need to win just like the narcissist, except that empaths feel their stubborness translates to being noble by helping or fixing the other person when it is really a need they have themselves to be acknowledged. If someone doesn’t like me, I think it’s their loss and move on to the company of others who I fit better with. The world is full of people and it is unreasonable (delusional really) to think you can win them all over. If you did get the narcissist back what are you (not you personally Lisa) really winning? The ability to have someone take over a large part of your life making you miserable while you fantasize that it could be different. Taking away time and effort you could be putting into those who appreciate you. It seems that is not satisfying enough. In that regard it is fake on both sides. Both sides just want their way and there is no “love” involved except love of acheiving their own goals (to BE loved). I agree that focus on ourselves is the better investment but then we’d have to admit that we are part of tte problem instead of blaming wouldn’t we?

      1. NarcAngel

        Yes I agree with everything you say, it’s taken me a while to see all of this because when I first discovered that this thing called NPD existed and that I was in a relationship with someone who has this, you just become obsessed with That and finding out everything you can and endless analysing , I then realised that my Stepfather is a Narcissist and you just relook at every aspect of your life. This also has forced me to look at my mother who I have always been close to and extremely loyal to, but i’ve had to look at how She as possibly a Codependant has continuously allowed my stepfather to get away with so much even at the cost of her own child’s well being (Me) and I do not want to be like her, she’s as bad as him, just in a different way and codependency looks like covert narcissism to me. I just see Narcissists and Empaths as so similar although I know as a medical diagnosis they are apparently not, because of emotions and other things. It’s all very fucked up and I feel that I understand it all now or at least have a lot of knowledge. The problem is i’m not sure how to deal with it moving forward or how to fix this in myself and how this won’t happen again. I’m single now but am very concerned about being able to have a normal relationship with a normal person in the future. Any advice on how you feel that you may have got better at this ? Thank you

        1. Hi Lisa
          The learning is continuous, but what I think is most important is one’s focus. I get the fascination with them and their behaviours in the beginning. To get the confirmation here of what has happened and why from HG’s perspective has been invaluable. It has also given me a window into some of the behaviours and perspectives of the different types of victims from the commenters (that I may not have considered before, and that helps in dealing with other family members, friends, etc), but ultimately the most important focus has to be on self because that is the only thing within our span of control. We have to be brutally honest with ourselves. Not blame but focus.

          What are we getting out of this relationship (narc or orherwise, past or present)? If you stay engaged in a relationship that makes you feel bad (intimate or otherwise) you are getting something out of it. Figure out what that is and what need or lack is causing you to stay. We can make all the excuses in the world but no one is holding us there. We do not need the label of narcissist or any for that matter. All we need to know is that it is not fulfilling us and causes us to be in turmoil.

          We do not need to fix anyone. Who do we think we are that we should do that? People are entitled to be who they are. We are entitled to walk away if we do not like them or what they do – not to change them. The world is full of people. We do not need to focus on winning each one over or worrying about what they think think of us. That is their business and doesn’t change the core of who we are one bit. It is allowing them superiority over us that we would invest so much in them. Accept them to the extent that your boundaries will allow or walk away.

          Which brings me to: We must have boundaries and enforce them. That doesn’t deny others. It honors ourselves.

          We only have so much time. Logic tells you this one person (or maybe a few people) that cause us grief and upset are not the only people on this earth, so why we invest so much in people that treat us badly or worry about what they think and allow them to steal our minutes, hours, …years, says more about us than it does them.

          Be honest with yourself. It may mean that you are re-creating things from your past, it may mean addiction, it may mean you do not love yourself in the way that you should and are expecting other people to make you feel whole. The bottom line is that ends with what you can identify about yourself and what you are willing to do about it.

          There is no need to become an untrusting hermit (or in my case – to wreak revenge). Live your life and honour yourself by paying attention to how you feel when encountering certain people and/or behaviours. You can only spend your minutes – you do not need to be concerned how others spend theirs.

          1. NarcAngel
            Thank you for taking the time to respond with your very supportive and helpful answer. This is my goal now to fix myself somehow.

          2. NarcAngel
            (Apologies in advance for the number of “!”)

            “but ultimately the most important focus has to be on self because that is the only thing within our span of control. “

            Yes!! 100 times yes! It took me forever to learn this growing up, but it is so true! The only person we can ever really control is ourself! Just like the lesson my FIL beat into my head – and I fought him the whole time – “no one else ever upsets you. You allow yourself to become upset.” Once we are adults, we are the ones who control where we are, who we’re with and what we put up with.

            “We do not need to fix anyone. Who do we think we are that we should do that? People are entitled to be who they are. We are entitled to walk away if we do not like them or what they do – not to change them.”

            Absolutely! Couldn’t be said better! I sure don’t want anyone trying to fix me, and I respect everyone else’s right to be who they are!

            You’ve got me pumped up now for my weekend!!😄

          3. Windstorm, NA

            Id like to add to your number of “!”

            My fav this weekend

            “We must have boundaries and enforce them. That doesn’t deny others. It honors ourselves.”

          4. Mercy

            As my MIL used to say, “If you want to love others, you have to first love yourself.” And part of that necessary self-love is setting boundaries.

          5. Mercy
            Yes, my MIL was very wise in many ways. It’s sort of funny. She was not at all what you would call “smart” or certainly not “educated” either, but she’d picked up a lot of wisdom from a hard life with an alcoholic narc husband and raising 5 children (3 of whom were narcs, 2 alcoholics also).

            She lived my favorite AlAnon saying (which she had on the back bumper of her car for years) -“Let Go and Let God.” She was a tower of strength for all of us and would help when needed, but she never meddled, never tried to fix people, never tried to control others. And she was a big believer in tough love.

            It made us all laugh when her youngest son called her from jail in another state, expecting her to bail him out. She was heard to say into the phone. “Oh! Well thanks for calling, sweetheart to tell us. Let us know when you get out.” Then hung up and turned to the family present and said, “That was J. He’s in jail somewhere in Alabama and doesn’t know how long he’ll have to be there.” And he stayed in jail and served out his sentence of several weeks. She confessed later that that was one of the hardest things she ever had to do.

          6. Windstorm, your story made me laugh and reflect on the people in my life. It sounds like your MIL had a high IQ of emotional intelligence. What my kids refer to as street smart. Some of the most clever people I know are not book smart but are smart in the ways of people and their actions. 

            I never understood poeple that are drawn to wealth and power. That is something I never envied. I have wealthy friends with kind hearts but a large percentage of people in this class have no substance, no sense of who they are. I’m more drawn to the wisdom of people like your MIL. 

            Thanks you so much for sharing. Your MILs story is something I will keep close. 

      2. Hi NA!
        Your comment to Lisa – “what are you (not you personally Lisa) really winning? The ability to have someone take over a large part of your life making you miserable while you fantasize that it could be different. Taking away time and effort you could be putting into those who appreciate you.”
        I can appreciate how that is viewed from the outside perspective with emotion removed. I think it is very difficult and hard for some of us to feel that we can move on and actually be “appreciated” by someone new while having such a messy, unfinished, hurtful ending with someone that we never meant to get so ugly with after how we felt about them. Does that make sense?
        We can accept endings and most of us strive to at least have amicable closure so both sides can move on peacefully and find what they want in a relationship. The Narc makes that impossible.
        This struck me today because coincidentally, I accessed an old cell to look for some old pictures and I came across my text thread with JN from two years ago. OMG! Gut-wrenching in a way to read. I see him making comments about how the “new MLA reigns supreme” with nothing but berating him and lashing out and all he ever wanted was old MLA back who was fun and spontaneous. I see me replying that he never showed up anymore and led me on and back peddled out of times we set up to meet so how could I believe he ever wanted time with me. He accuses me again and again of my “dime store psychology” overthinking everything. He’s really quite “simple”. He’s trying to become a better person and wants people like that around him. Not a “bitch”. I saw where I was accused of always being very fun and playful the first few days when we’d (or rather he’d get back in touch after a silent treatment) and then he can “set his clock” that within 3 days “the darkness comes out” in me.
        No wonder I was such a hot mess of confusion and fog. You would seriously read this and think that I was the Narcissist with him.
        And looking back at those messages from two years ago, I see where the two events that caused real trauma bonding with me to him early on when we were seeing each other made irreversible damage with me. I have never to this day felt he even attempted support or compassion. I can see it in my answers to him that he never made anything up and for a long time I thought he was always still communicating because he wanted to make those amends.
        But it’s hard NA to get to that place, to say, ok, with some people, the bridge is burned and it’s ugly and will always remain that way. It’s hard to shake that feeling that you’ll continue to have more endings like that if you try to move forward. I don’t know that I view it as a “win” as you asked Lisa above. But having an ending without real closure that leaves such a dark, nasty imprint, when it didn’t have to be that way does take a lot to heal from for some people. It’s not as easy to just shake off and walk away.

        1. Clarece
          I’m sure reading through those messages brings it all back for you. Having understanding is not the same as getting over it or it no longer being painful. When HG talks about using logic rather than emotional thinking , obviously he’s correct but putting it into practise is completely different . I was merely pointing out that participating in these sort of toxic relationships is about our own issues not the narcs. I could barely stand the sight of my ex in the end and i was the one that ended it , but with Christmas looming i still feel a little sad as i spent the last 4 christmas’s with him, however none of them were really that enjoyable , or I can still think of all the ridiculous word salad conversations that went on for years and feel equally as pissed off about it. However i question more why i tolerated all this complete and utter bullshit . I think NarcAngel just means it makes sense to use that time and energy differently , she never said it was simple or easy.
          Was he your only dealings with a Narc Clarece ?

          1. Hi Lisa! Oh, let me clarify that I didn’t interpret NA’s question or comments as curt or abrasive and I didn’t think she implied it’s simple or easy. I was just trying to explain my perspective on why for so long trying to get JN’s validation and some respectable closure was so important to me. Hopefully she knows that. lol
            Agreed, when I see old text conversations now, it is still a major agitator and the blatant circular word salad conversations are mind blowing.
            In spending time here for 3 years, I realized I have a long track record of dealing with Narcs from past bosses (thank god not my present employer), one past girlfriend of 10 years who is now serving time in Federal Prison for embezzling money from a past employer we both worked for, a couple of relatives, etc. I realize my ex-husband of 17 years who I had my daughter with, has higher narc traits but he is not what I would label as having NPD. He had other issues too so combined it affected me and then primed me for what I believe was the most damaging relationship when I met JN.
            In looking at the text conversations, I see a version of myself that was so immersed in pain and it became a vicious cycle of me totally lashing out at him every chance I could when he would get wishy washy or dismissive or play his push pull games. He definitely brought out the worst in me.
            The fact that I’ve completely removed myself from the dating world for 2 years now has been the best decision because no new Narcs are entering the scene. The friends I get together with have been around for several years or more and they are not toxic relationships. I’m close with my family and especially my daughter. It definitely helps when you eliminate the garbage and just keep quality caliber people in your life who reciprocate true caring and love.

          2. Clarece, I completely get it and i’m sure NarcAngel does too. I’ve read this site on and off since it started more or less and always valued You and NarcAngels comments.

          3. Lisa.
            Thats correct. Not easy – just a different view. I only offered it as a different focus for those who may be ready for that change and might entertain it as a viable option.

          4. NarcAngel
            I think my view is slightly different and I see the Empath/Copdendant as part of the problem and not just a pure victim.
            I actually see similar traits as the narcissist. Probably not a popular opinion.

        2. Clarece
          I’m not saying it’s easy to just shake off and walk away but you have to start somewhere, and that somewhere might be with focusing on self instead of investing in closure (with anyone – not just narcissists). I’m not so sure in a lot of cases if people are completely honest, that seeking closure is not just another way (perhaps unconcious) of staying engaged. It is compounding the damage to you because you expose yourself to all of the things they continue to say to you that you know not to be true and that hurt you, while you are continuing to pursue it. In that regard it can be viewed as a form of attempted control over the other person and a form of self-flagellation. You cannot make anyone give you what they do not want to just because you want it. There comes a time that you have to find a way to reconcile that yourself and walk away instead of continuing to invest.

          But you’re right, I’m outside looking in and that renders my views invalid. There is another longer comment to Lisa that has not been moderated yet. You should ignore that also.

          1. NA! No, no, I’m not saying your viewpoint was invalid. At all. I was just trying to give you a perspective to understand how the validation can become like tunnel vision for some of us to keep trying to get. And yes the engagement with the Narc gets elongated. For sure. It becomes the day in, day out routine. Especially for the people married or living with their significant other. The dysfunction becomes the new normal and completely familiar to them to live with for so long. Mixed in with juggling all of other life duties of bills, home, childcare, meal prep, etc. Then, NA, you can hear the line I would from a few in my very Catholic family…stick with the devil you know because you may get a worse one. I guess I still don’t see it from a control angle, although I understand it very well can be. I just have always viewed it as a honoring duty and obligation and many put themselves last in that category.

      3. NA, “If someone doesn’t like me, I think it’s their loss and move on to the company of others who I fit better with. The world is full of people and it is unreasonable (delusional really) to think you can win them all over.“

        Hello, I’m MB and I’m delusional. I’ve said it before, but I want to be like you when I grow up. Oh how I wish I could not care what people think of me. I can’t bear it if somebody doesn’t like me and I know it. I will go to great lengths for approval. Rejection sears me to the core. I don’t burn bridges and I don’t have enemies (as far as I know.) I hate tension and conflict and confrontation. You wouldn’t believe the things I’ve done to keep the peace and not cause trouble for anybody else. Yeah, I’m perfect narc bait!

        1. MB
          It’s painful for me when people don’t like me, too. And rejection sears me to the core, also. I don’t burn bridges and I don’t have enemies, either. And absolutely I hate tension and conflict and confrontation! So far, we are the same.

          Where we seem to differ is how we deal with these things. I make a mental note about how people feel/think about me, feel some pain and regret and write these people off as ever being a friend. If they’re colleagues, then I continue to interact with them in a friendly way, but always wary and ready for them to do or say something hurtful.

          What I don’t do, though, is try to change their minds. I don’t try to get their approval. I figure that they have judged me and that’s their loss. I am who I want to be and would never change that for anybody. I can only change myself for myself.

          My MIL taught me this. She believed that God made us all different and that it’s our responsibility to figure out who we are and how God wants us to be, then be that person – regardless of what anyone else thinks about us. When you understand yourself and you’re comfortable with who you are, that’s when you feel true happiness.

          1. WS, those are lessons I haven’t learned. I don’t know if I’ll ever get to a place of being comfortable with my self or of true happiness. When I am criticized or rejected, it only reinforces the fact of what I already know. I’m less than and unworthy and they’ve seen me for what I truly am. It’s difficult to dispute that which you agree with. As I’ve said before, at times of shame, I just wish to disappear. Other times, I’ve got everybody fooled and I’m more comfortable in that place.

          2. MB
            Well that is certainly my greatest wish for you, that you come to realize what a great person you are and take your personal power away from those around you and into your own hands where it belongs.

            And you’re wrong about having us all fooled. We can see the bright light of empathy and compassion that shines out from you, even if you remain blind to it. People don’t love you because you agree with them. That’s not even real love anyway. We love you for the real woman you are. ❤️

          3. MB, you are fooling no one but yourself. We can see your beautiful heart. Instead of believing those that criticize, choose to believe those that see the good in you. As an empath, we naturally see the positive qualities in people. We need to focus on practicing this towards ourselves as well. Don’t waste this powerful trait on others alone, apply it to yourself and you will see what we all see in you.

      4. MB & WS, I can very much relate to the message that you are both expressing. I gather that most of us here are peacekeepers, Windstorm… and will continue to keep the peace, even at our own expense.

        It is a huge burden to take all that on, yet we do…. because it always seems like our responsibility to do so.

        Why is it difficult to set boundaries? Even more disturbing, why is it so difficult to practice self-love? I think I was partly raised to feel that doing so (on any significant level) is an undesirable trait. I certainly don’t want to be self-absorbed, but I don’t want to be a disrespected pushover either.

        I am guilty of both.

        Finding balance is most difficult for me. All of this being “beaten down” by narcissism has taken its toll. I am trying to learn to be more positive about myself… to appreciate certain attributes while not loathing myself for being fooled. In doing so, I have bulit a wall to keep any perceived negatively at bay. Yet, I still absorb what’s around me.

        I fear that I will adopt too many narcissistic traits as a self-defense mechanism. I certainly don’t plan to be fooled by a narcissist again. So I think – I will simply fight fire with fire. But as soon as I do, the other side of me becomes guilt-ridden.

        All that I can say is the narcissist/empath dynamic is a bitch of a problem. The Good Lord knows the ways in which both sides struggle. I just wish it didn’t consume me to know for myself. I should just leave that problem for The Big Guy, but my curious truth-seeking self wants to know even what God is thinking!

        Hearing you two express yourselves helps me to know that I am not alone in some of my feelings. I truly appreciate that there are many good people here… full of sweet wisdom. (I especially enjoy seeing what a sweet little girl you were, MB… your wisdom in the making. 🙇)