Analysis : Narcissist v IPPS, Candidate IPSS and Shelf IPSS

narc ipps ipss ipss

This article provides you with the analysis of an interaction between a Somatic Lower Mid-Range Narcissist and three Standard Empaths (one from the Magnet Cadre the other two from the Carrier Cadre). The emphasis is not about the schools and cadres of the participants (although the flavour will be evident) but rather on demonstrating the nature of the interaction and how the narcissist regards the two.

The narcissist has a co-habiting partner (Carrier Standard Empath)and thus this person is an Intimate Partner Primary Source (“IPPS”) in devaluation. They have been in a Formal Relationship of partners for two years. Devaluation commenced one year ago. 


The Candidate Intimate Partner Secondary Source (“CANIPSS” – Standard Magnet Empath) lives in the same city as the narcissist. She is single.  They met on a dating site. They have met in person and known one another three weeks. The Formal Relationship is narcissist and CANIPSS,  early dating.

The Shelf Intimate Partner Secondary Source (“SIPSS” – Standard Carrier Empath) also lives in the same city as the narcissist and the CANIPSS. She is single and met the narcissist on the same dating site. They have met several times and have known one another for two months. The Formal Relationship is narcissist and SIPSS, established dating. The SIPSS is viewed as white and is currently on the shelf.

The narcissist awakes and immediately thinks about the CANIPSS. This is a Hoover Trigger (“HT”). She is viewed as white, he has her telephone number, they are friends on social media sites, the Hoover Execution Criteria are easily met and therefore he issues a hoover by sending a text message. Note that a hoover occurs as part of seduction.

“Hi, dreamt about you last night, better not say though, you might get too carried away before work.”

The CANIPSS answers within seconds by text.

“Wow, I like that, go on, you can tell me.” Positive fuel, potency high as CANIPSS, quantity low (written message) and one-off frequency.

Pleased by the effect of the fuel and the rapid response (signalling to the narcissist that the CANIPSS is coming under his control) he replies

“Let’s just say we both enjoyed it. Would be even better in person.”

The CANIPSS again responds in seconds by text.

“You think so? You sound pretty confident, I am no pushover you know, lol.” Positive challenge fuel (potency et al as before).

The narcissist whilst challenged by this text sees it as an opportunity to assert his perceived superiority but in a benign way.

“Of course. I know what I am doing. You will have to let me find out.”

The CANIPSS again responds in seconds.

“I might just do that. Did you have anything in mind?” Positive fuel (potency et al as prior)

The narcissist is buoyed by the fuel but moreover identifies that the CANIPSS is clearly interested and thus his control is slowly increasing. He responds quickly by text.

“How about I take you out for dinner tonight?”

A text arrives from the SIPPS.

Hi, how are you? I was just thinking about last week and how much we enjoyed that new Thai place. How about we go again? I am free tonight or tomorrow.” Positive fuel, potency high (as SIPSS), quantity low as written word, frequency one off.

The narcissist does not respond however, even though the SIPSS is viewed as white. She is on the shelf and he is focussed on the CANIPSS as he impatiently awaits her response to his suggestion.

The CANIPSS texts back.

“I cannot do tonight. I have something on.”

This rejection wounds the narcissist. It is only mild in nature however as it is by text. He is slightly irritated by this but as he is in the seduction period with the CANIPSS and therefore she is viewed in a white manner he maintains his control so the ignited fury does not manifest. He replies by text to the CANIPSS.

“How about tomorrow night?”

Just then the IPPS (the cohab partner) appears at the bedroom door. She is in devaluation  and is viewed as black.

“On the ‘phone again are we? You are never off it, I swear it’s welded to your hand.” she says with a frown and a shake of her head. Negative Challenge Fuel. Very high potency (IPPS), significant quantity (in presence, spoken word, tone, body language, facial expression), frequency one off.

This is negative Challenge Fuel. She demonstrates irritation and annoyance. It is a Challenge because she is ‘attacking’ the narcissist’s right to use the ‘phone when he chooses. Also because it suggests that he is not doing something right because he is on the ‘phone. The narcissist is not concerned that he is texting another woman and his partner has caught him on the ‘phone (albeit she does not know what who he is interacting with) but rather it is the Challenge as described which has to be addressed.

“Yes I am because someone has to work hard and bring the money in to pay for you and your wretched wardrobe haven’t they?” he responds with a provocative comment designed to draw further negative fuel but moreover to stamp on the challenge issued by the IPPS.

The IPPS puts her hands on her hips (negative fuel, very high potency, moderate quantity – presence, facial expression, body language, frequency one off.

“Yeah, you know what I am talking about.” goads the narcissist with another provocative remark. As he says this, he texts the CANIPSS again.

“I know this really good Thai restaurant which you will love, my treat naturally.” (Of course this is the same Thai restaurant that the narcissist went to with the SIPPS evidencing his lack of distinction between the people he is engaging with as they are appliances to him.)

Rather than wait for her response barely a minute after suggesting the restaurant, his lack of boundary recognition and sense of entitlement causes him to send this text. Further, the black view he has of the IPPS remains a stark contrast to the white view taken of the CANIPSS. In his mind the IPPS is a traitor, the CANIPSS the increasingly loyal saviour.

“Oh and you never buy any clothes do you?” retorts the IPPS in annoyance. Negative Challenge Fuel, very high  potency, significant quantity (presence, spoken word, tone, facial expression, boy language) , frequency one off. Challenge since the IPPS is suggesting that he is a hypocrite.

“I can buy what I like you money-grabbing ungrateful bitch, I earn it.” The narcissist increases the provocation with a gratuitous insult designed to garner more fuel but mainly to establish superiority again.

“Oh and I suppose I do nothing other than run the house and do a job do I? Anyway, I haven’t got time for this, I will see you at 1pm for lunch right?”

This is negative Challenge Fuel because she is suggesting the narcissist is ungrateful and does not do as much as she does (therefore she is superior) and furthermore she is trying to close down the discussion by having the last word which also challenges the narcissist’s notion of superiority. As she says this a text arrives from the CANIPSS.

“Yes, tomorrow would be great, I will be free at 8pm, let me know the name of the restaurant, I cannot wait and if you are good you can come back for coffee afterwards.”

Positive fuel, high potency, low quantity and one-off frequency. The narcissist’s control is increasing.

“Excellent. Cannot wait. Wear something hot, that blue dress really suits you.” he texts back.

His prescriptive nature about telling the CANIPSS what to wear evidences his sense of entitlement and increasing ownership of the appliance that she is to him. He also, owing to this sense of entitlement and lack of accountability sees nothing wrong with doing this and making the IPPS wait for him to respond. She stands waiting, glaring, providing further negative fuel. Her Challenge to him has still not been dealt wth. The narcissist is edified by the positive fuel from the SIPSS, more positive fuel from the CANIPSS but especially from the negative fuel from the IPPS. His day has started very well indeed and it is only 7-30 am.

“Oh I cannot make it, I have to go through the pitch with Ian.” answers the narcissist. This is a lie however his lack of conscience means he has no issue with stating this to the IPPS.

“You haven’t mentioned that before, well tell him you cannot do it,” responds the IPPS in irritation. Negative Challenge Fuel (telling the narcissist what to do), very high potency, significant quantity, one-off frequency.

The narcissist is under attack again and his verbal responses have failed to assert superiority as required. He has no fuel problem however. Since he has been accused of not telling the IPPS something he responds verbally

“Yes I did, I told you yesterday, but you do not listen, you never do, too caught up in yourself.” He issues a denial against her accusation of not having told her about the engagement with Ian which is part of the Narcissist’s First Line of Defence (see the article The Narcissist’s Twin Lines of Defence). He is also seeking to stamp out her challenge by shifting the tack of the discussion (an instinctive response) through the manipulation of Projection by accusing her of the very thing he does.

“No you didn’t. you did not say anything,” she says in annoyance. Again Challenge Fuel of a negative variety. Potency et al remains the same.

The narcissist shifts manipulation (instinctively) again by ignoring her. Present Silent Treatment. Her status as viewed black causes him to think of asserting his superiority further even though she IPPS will not know what he is doing, in his mind, he is gaining superiority through this  next act.

The narcissist texts the SIPSS.

“Hi, good to hear from you, I was just about to text you when you texted me.” (A lie but it will make the SIPPS feel wanted).

“How about lunch today at 1pm? My treat. The Thai restaurant is open at lunch as well.”

(Note the second offer to buy a meal for someone outside of his relationship – a somatic gesture of generosity)

The IPPS stands waiting for an answer. She is still providing negative fuel from her stance, frown and glaring eyes. The narcissist continues to ignore her maintaining the Present Silent Treatment.

The SIPSS replies by text

“Yeah, great, I did have something on at 12-30 but I can move it for you (Carrier Empath – poor boundary assertion) I will meet you at 1pm, cannot wait.”

The SIPSS is on the shelf still (short exchange) but will be taken off the shelf for the lunch appointment – assuming the narcissist attends. He may not if circumstance dictates this benefits him. She remains viewed white.

Her text is positive fuel of high potency, low quantity and one-off frequency.

“Oh forget it!” hisses the IPPS he remains ignored as the narcissist starts flicking through a set of pictures he has exchanged with the SIPPS which gives him a small amount of Thought Fuel alongside the negative fuel that the IPPS continues to pump out as she is ignored and annoyed.

The IPPS storms off and slams the front door leaving the property. This last act provides another does of negative fuel because it is an annoyed gesture. The well-fuelled narcissist  smiles and finally rises from his bed. It is only 7-37 am and his day has begun rather well for him.

IPPS remains in devaluation and painted black.

Candidate IPSS is prime candidate in seduction, painted white and the narcissist will repeatedly hoover her during the day in a benign way, ahead of their date tomorrow night.

SIPPS is on shelf until lunchtime, painted white and ranking behind the Candidate IPSS still.. with no prospect of any immediate shift in that status.




  1. I am in seriously deep with a potential narcissist sociopath. It’s been four years of the cycle of love bombing withdrawal Hoover, triangulation, silent treatments, lieing, pushing sexual boundaries, confusion, destruction, loss, in fact pretty much everything apart from physical abuse. BUT I still feel the need to collect ‘proof’ for myself because while I instinctively suspect he is triangulating me with others online and off line I don’t have actual hard proof. I swing between feeling I have him worked out as a sociopath to feeling I am clutching at straws and paranoid and he’s just on the spectrum or psychologically damaged from trauma he suffered as a teenager. HELP needed. Currently he’s backing off a possible discard approaching but it’s like a drug as soon as he’s love bombing my resolve just melts. Did other need years of gathering ‘proof’ before escaping?

    1. The way this guy is making you feel is all the proof you need and believe me once you get the proof you’ll make an excuse and want another piece of proof and on and on be ause you don’t want face what you know is true. Continuing to deny it wlll send spiraling out of comtrol eventually until you no longer recognize yourself

  2. It seems my comment is misplaced. It should be more towards the bottom of the thread where the discussion regarding this and more was taking place. The topic had me thinking of the other topic which I wrote about. My stance on disclosure vs non disclosure is still the same. I feel disclosure is important. And yes, some pple start dating for the purpose of finding a long term partner in order to one day have a family. When they find out, they feel betrayed. There are many points I can use to support disclosure. There are many points you can use to support non disclosure. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I believe that honesty is key. And no, it is not easy to tell. Kayla Itsines for example is a very beautiful trans woman. Somebody on the blog stated that she is transgendered and I definitely could not tell. It doesn’t mean I don’t feel for them. Pls don’t put words into my mouth. I never said that. My heart sinks with heaviness when i read stories of gender dysphoria. But my heart also sinks with heaviness when I read of stories of partners who did not know, and wish they had known, because now they feel emotionally connected to somebody that doesn’t fulflill their desire to have a family. My heart also sinks for the man who does not want to have sex with a (biological) male, unknowingly does, and then starts to have gender issues himself, where previously there were none. We may want to ignore this latter issue, but it is a reality as well. That is why honesty is so important.

  3. Re: period sex

    At least with period sex one knows his partner is biologically female. I fear sometimes for hg what if he is dating a transgendered female that has had gender reassignment surgery. Some of them are very beautiful, more beautiful than biological females! Kayla Itsines for example was born male. Somebody on the blog alerted me to this. You can tell by the hip:waist ratio.

      1. I fear you may sleep with a biological male unknowingly. Unless of course, you don’t mind. But I am pretty sure you mind. And so do I! My apologies to any transgender females out there but it is how I feel. Full disclosure is necessary but most do not disclose because they think it’s nobody’s business what their birth sex was.

          1. Of course Jenna, who else would commend as such? No I am not offended. People can say anything they want and I feel free to do so as well. Transgenders are people too you know, with feelings and emotions and they have gone through great distress for most of their life, feeling they are in the wrong body. Try to be empathic, think about it, put yourself in their shoes for once and don’t make it sound like they are people you should avoid like the plague. I’d rather date a transgender than a person with a mindset like you Jenna.

          2. Hi 2SF/blank,

            I was not certain it was you so I just wanted to confirm.

            I think you have misunderstood my comment or perhaps I was not clear. I have much empathy for transgendered people. They experience gender dysphoria, and go through alot of ups and downs. I have a transgendered friend and she and I get along very well. My heart goes out to them because they have to make such a big decision and the surgeries are not easy.

            However, this is an ethical question. My view is that the partner should be told the truth. If the man is heterosexual and does not prefer to have sex with a biological male, that should be his decision to make, not find out after sex. The transgender female’s previous penis is turned inside out to create a ‘neovagina’ that looks and feels like a real vagina. Inside, he still has a prostate gland. Some men only want to passionately kiss biological females, and and it is their choice. Perhaps some pple may not agree with their choice in only preferring biological women, but it is their choice. Like I said, this is an ethical debate. I am on the disclosure side of the debate. I think disclosure is important. Pple will have different views and I respect all views. Hg has stated several times on the blog that he is heterosexual and that is his preference.

            Nice to see you blank! We all have different opinions and that’s ok. That’s what makes this world a unique place!

      2. Okay Jenna, so some women here who had a histerectomy should mention this as well on their first date, because they are no ‘real women’ anymore?
        When someone looks like a woman, has a vagina and you’d like to have sex with her, what’s the problem?
        A problem may only rise when you want to raise a family together and the other person purposefully does not mention the fact he or she is infertile. Your first comment is really weird, you ‘fearing for HG’. He is a grown up man, you do not know all his sexual preferences and besides that, one wouldn’t easily ‘fool’ HG, he would know.

        I fear you may sleep with a man who doesn’t know your true inner world, or you don’t know his. That’s much more frightening to me than missing or having an extra body part.

      3. …. not to mention the fact that HG wouldn’t be restricted to a certain age … or non-pregnant women … or a certain gender at all …

        I don’t know why you focus so much on your period sex, Jenna, mentioning it again and again on several threads, like … we know by now, thank you …

        But these lasts posts are offensive in so many ways, also sexist in a weird twisted way …

        Either way, those are comments, I really don’t want to know about, they have nothing to do with the topic/article, aside from your misplaced concern for HG.

      4. Ava,
        I have not ‘mentioned it again and again on several threads’. It was only one other thread sometime last year where FOTS talked about it, so I addressed it there. It was brought up again in this thread, which got me thinking about the disclosure issue.

      5. Oh brother complete eye roll. Funny 2sf you don’t seem to have the same sentiment toward Narcs who are merely damaged children.

        No one has to feel all warn and fuzzy about transgender and no I don’t have to put myself in their shoes anymore than I do the Narcs.

    1. Okay, I have to ask: what made you think HG might be “dating a transgendered female that has had gender reassignment surgery”?

      Is it “pin your hang-ups on HG” month?

          1. What you should be asking is – Is there a moral duty to disclose that you’re a Narcissist to a potential partner? answer – of course not, what’s a moral duty?

      1. Morning Sun –

        “Is it “pin your hang-ups on HG” month?”

        Hahaha…I’ve not read the entire conversation you’re referencing but isn’t HG a pincushion for hang-ups?

  4. Long thread,can’t tell where the far*ing discussion began to reply to hahaha. I also think it’s unthinkable for my Narc that his sources do that. One time,I have sent him a funny selfie wearing a false moustache as a response to his requests of sending him a ‘hot’ pic. He told me (half-laughing) that it was the most unsexy thing he ever saw in his life and to stop doing it since ‘I am breaking the myth’. ‘That’s the point’ I replied :) then it hit me how he’s living in a fantasy world where women probably don’t go to the bathroom and always look like ‘I woke up like this’. Then I knew nothing about this site,but now I almost graduated on HG academy,it all makes sense. HG,would you immediately disengage if a woman far*ed in front of you during GP or would you save that as a joker for the devaluation period? :) funny subject indeed. In general,what goes through your head when this moment when you evidence your source is made of ‘flash and blood’ too? Are you oblivious to all in GP or it immediately turns you off and triggers another source getting into the picture? For the record,I have a friend (not Narc) who was shocked when he found out at the age of 25 that women fart too :))) I was literally dying while he was describing his state of shock.

  5. Hg thank you for writing this. I found it to be very revealing. I would love to see you write this type of story about cerebral narcs and elite narcs. I seem to keep running into those two more than somatics.

  6. Great article HG. It’s eye-opening in it’s real-life detail and explanation of thought processes and fuel given in italics.

    What surprises me is how quickly and instinctively it all unfolds. In the space of ten minutes or so, the narc has managed to manipulate three people with his toxic mind-games and create drama and chaos that would take hours to unravel, decipher and understand by those same three people.

    There’s a monumentally stark difference in how a narcissist reacts to things compared to how a “normal” or empathic person reacts. Their sense of entitlement is one of these differences.

    In your article, the narcissist feels entitled to lie non-stop without a second thought to all three of the targets. He is willing to say whatever it takes in order to bend things to his will. However, when a victim (in this case, the IPPS) responds to a lie by pointing out that the narcissist told a lie (which she is rightly entitled to do), he feels “wounded” and receives “negative challenge fuel” because she is “telling him what to do” and his “superiority” is called into question?! This scenario is so ridiculous that it’s laughable.

    It’s impossible to have a real or fulfilling relationship this way. It’s all a toxic, chaotic mess and a waste of time and effort. Thank you HG, for spelling it out clearly.

  7. do people notice that the narc wastes so much time texting? he could have a very productive morning, building imaoctful things. But since he is an addict to fuel he needs to focus on that 100% all the time.
    So sad :'(

    But also I think empowering. Let’s use our time wisely. #teamEmpaths

  8. The interesting thing with Narc Friend is that he seemed to be romantically involved with all the females he knew in some way, but in varying degrees. He had a particular story he’d present to women very subtly that hooked them in. He was very handsome and charismatic, and would pitch himself to women as having gotten his heart broken and being so jaded that he wasn’t sure he ever wanted a relationship again. He spent a lot of time telling me about how he lived his life basically alone and barely talked to anyone on a typical day. He’d write to me on almost a daily basis, which I figured at first met his need for companionship in some way. Of course, a woman seeing such a handsome man who seemed so lonely and jaded would jump at the chance to win his trust and his heart and show him that love doesn’t have to hurt — and that’s what hooked me right in. He knew for sure that I was romantically interested in him and did absolutely nothing to discourage this, but never reciprocated either. He talked about how he disliked commitment and preferred to be free and didn’t think he’d ever get married, but then would sigh over hearing someone else had met their soul mate or talk about what kind of dad he’d be someday. You never quite knew what he wanted for himself or from you. The relationship was perpetually in a grey area. One day he’d talk about visiting me, but the next he’d be cold to the idea. This led me (and I’m sure a lot of other women) to try to push it in a more serious direction, offering him loads and loads of fuel in the process. Really, it is a pretty genius low-energy way to get a lot of female attention. You can imagine my shock when it became apparent that he actually had a girlfriend.

    The last time I saw him he talked about how he didn’t really like sleeping next to other people and didn’t like anyone to have a claim to his time. I think for this reason he kept his ties to his sources very loose with extremely low expectations. I have no idea what the rest of his fuel matrix looked like, except that most of his relationships were long-distance and involved a lot of travel on the part of both people. This helped him compartmentalize and allowed him to spend his time however he wished without questions. I was technically an NISS, but probably more like an “IPSS in waiting,” being kept available for that role in case another source proved unfit, along with at least one other woman I know with whom he triangulated. The last time I saw him I got the full interview which included my finances, my desire for future relationships, my reaction to the other woman I knew, when and where we’d meet up again, and my current relationship with my ex. I can only assume that I was headed for a promotion — that bullet whizzed by so close that I practically felt the breeze from it, because I found out about his cheating ways about 3 days later and got the silent treatment.

      1. I often wonder if anyone else commenting here knew the same guy. I think that his relationships (of various levels) were fairly prolific so I wouldn’t be surprised to run into someone else who did. The degree to which his life was incredibly well-organized around attaining this kind of scenario is shocking. He didn’t make much money at his job, but it facilitated swapping phone numbers with single females frequently. He tended to avoid having overtly sexual relationships with all these women despite probably being somatic, which is still slightly puzzling to me, but it was also a way of maintaining his cover story of loneliness and hesitation and making anyone he did sleep with feel super special — he appeared outwardly to be very monogamous and his behavior never suggested he was a player. No source knew about any of the other sources, so each individual was very deeply bound to him, thinking she might be “the one.” I live in “flyover country” in what he considered to be a boring place, which probably actually spared me the worst of it, because I didn’t offer the residual benefits he was looking for.

        I am still not disengaged, incidentally. Painted black and shelved, but not blocked. Last I heard he wasn’t working the job where he picks up women, so I wonder if I will hear from him again when fuel gets thin, or if I’ll eventually be tossed aside.

      1. Imagine my shock when someone (whom I met thru him incidentally) sent me a screenshot of an IG story from their common friend of the Mid-ranger at his wedding! Literally the moment of signing. I was on holiday and he had still been texting me regularly.

        HG, why is it that narcs marry down? The current wife/victim is less pretty professionally not even close to me in accomplishments. My career surpassed his (same industry) during the devalue.

        Doesn’t the concern for appearance and status mean they prefer to marry up? His friends are shocked he picked this one (out of the other 10) but apparently she cleans up after him when he comes back from partying.

      2. Wow HG. I think you’ve outdone yourself. I just read your “Have you seen who he is with” post. By his own admission he picked her because she puts up with his partying and cleans up afterwards. She has no career really so I guess she will feel like a winner someone so good looking and successful picked her.

        Since his career stalled and he was let go from our previous company, he needed an ego boost, which explains the 10 appliances he picked the wife from. It also explains why it was a wedge discard, until I confronted him I knew about the wife. I really wish I knew what he was and knew about your work before sending those emotionally charged texts.

        That being said, thank you HG. It’s been a month and I am operating on logic and cold reason 95% of the time. Without your work I would still be “why didn’t he pick me? I do everything he asks, I was planning to decline a promotion opportunity so as to not outshine him anymore”

      3. I plan to. I will be in contact.

        But first, finish my journal, work double time to chase that promotion and double time at muay thai plus all the festivities of the season.

        He can show off his new appliance. I can show off my new title and abs. (Consultants, we are a competitive lot)

        Thank you, HG.

    1. Michelle,
      Wow this sounds so familiar. My MMRN also does the distance thing and I suspect has many “inappropriate” flirty friendships with women that he keeps simmering.

      I’ve often thought that he (being very cerebral) would’ve preferred to keep me in that type of role also. But I pushed for sexual interaction, so he obliged to make sure I was bonded I suppose.

      I also think he pulls women out of his past a lot. Worked with me. He’s nothing special in terms of charm or looks, but very polite and respectful with some intelligence and a good job. (Exactly as HG describes an Mmrn). I have, through sneaky means, seen how he texts a new prospect and he’s awkward and somewhat offputting. And he’s a terrible kisser, so not sure how he gets on with acquiring IPSS’s.

      Maybe for him it’s all long distance and online. Wouldn’t surprise me in the least. Nor would it surprise me to find out he has two local IPSS that he has nooners with and sneaks out for dinner with haha

        1. MB,
          Ha! Cerebral, that’s the only explanation. As soon as he kissed me as an adult, I remembered that even as an innocent 16 year old making out in his parents basement I knew he was terrible at it. He had not improved with age lol he is exactly the same.
          He also has this offputting habit of giving a few staccato style kisses and then going directly for the promised land by reaching for your jeans button. Even guys in a hurry usually do better than that, but there was absolutely no touching of my face, neck, breasts, anything.
          He is WAY better at imaginative sexting. Can’t deliver in person. Though according to him he says he is like a sex god in bed. Haha typical

          1. Hmmm, Supernova, were you with my ex narc too? LOL The whole concept of foreplay was never in his bag of tricks, ever! He could ‘take’ (what guy doesn’t like a blow job) but was incapable of giving in any manner whatsoever. I remember having one conversation with him (while he was probably driving home from an IPSS to me, the IPPS) and I had said to him “I am surprised that you have managed to get laid at any point in time in your life because not only does your skill set suck, how do you get together with anyone when you say you don’t like touching?. How can you have sex without touching your partner?”

            I also remember asking him one time “did your mother not hold you enough as a child?” (little did I know at the time, how dead on that remark likely was)’

            HG…..would you call those comments of mine, a warning shot over the brow of the ship, or direct hits capable of extreme wounding? (thinking my exN falls between upper lesser and lower mid range as he vacillates between striking out in violence, threatening to call the police and pleading).

          2. Most likely they would be Challenge Fuel because you provided emotion (fuel) when you said them.

      1. As a further example of his excellent cerebralness, he picked up over time that I am particularly inclined toward oral pleasures, going both ways.
        He once said, “So I’ve been thinking about you wanting to go down, and I think I could get into that.”
        Ummm wait, hold up, you THINK you can get into receiving an enthusiastic high-quality blow job from a classy sexy beautiful woman you’ve been building sexual tension with for months….where the fuck did you leave your man card!!?!!
        A normal man would say, “Damn baby I love that you like to do that it’s so hot.”
        (Eyeroll) I honestly don’t know why I stuck around when I recall this stuff.

          1. Yea, well, as previously discussed, neither is sending a picture of your penis pump in use instead of spending a weekend in a hotel fucking like rabbits as has been offered by said sexy beautiful woman many times.

      2. Supernova

        That is so funny. Mine said he hates being touched and doesn’t really like kissing but would kiss me. But doesn’t not like havd holding anyone sitting too close to him cuddling or hugging but would tell me all the time how he wanted to F me or how he thought about me in his “private time “

  9. HG, if you are dating narcissist for a while and he starts a conversation “I hope you don’t date other men, I want it to be exclusive, only you and me” and also asks questions like “what can I do to prove I am only yours? Do you need a declaration or any other form of evidence that I am trusworthy and reliable?” – is it a sign he tries to crown you as IPPS?

    1. He wants you to prove you’re only his and to give him evidence that you’re trustworthy and reliable… projection at its best.

      1. I have never dared to ask, but now that has been mentioned, I would be VERY interested in reading about narcissism and the (food) elimination process (joke). Except for one, none of the narcs I know have food issues. All the opposite, they eat quite freely. However, most have digestion/elimination issues.
        The reason why I am interested in this is because the gut is a second brain and serotonin is produced there and responsible for the good functioning of the whole digestive tract. It seems to me that people with NPD are low in serotonin. Sleeping issues also seem to be present in most of the NPD cases I know (sign of low serotonin levels too).

        1. Ah yes, sleep issues too, Lou. I don’t know if MRN had them but Lesser sure did. I would bear the brunt of his irritability – if he could not sleep it was because of me. I was not allowed to so much as breathe and he would make things up that I was doing that kept him awake. It became so that I was not allowed to sleep because he couldn’t and I was afraid to do something to set him off.

          When we slept apart he STILL could not sleep. Of course that was also my fault – making him sleep elsewhere. I shudder at the memories…

          Lesser somaticized everything – he was fit, good looking, basically healthy but on and on about the digestive troubles, circulation problems, high bp, deaf in one ear, couldn’t sleep, body image, sleep problems, measured food intake, etc. He would not touch any sleep aids but he drank like a fish. Me: maybe you shouldn’t drink so much in the evening. Him: whacks me over the head with a can of Guinness.

      2. Lou

        That is funny. Yes they all have sleep issues and seem to sleep very little and I have read countless times about them having bathroom issues to include even being weird about toilet paper

  10. I agree with Rebecca…. please do more of these dialogues, stories, etc. whatever you want to call them.

    Also you said the guy is a lower mid range? Would a mid or upper-mid make the nasty comments to the IPPS in the same manner? My MMRN is always so polite and never insults. Yes there was the back handed comment but he would never say something like “someone has to pay for your clothes you bitch” or whatever. I guess I am just wondering if “Mr Polite Pants” would have different dialogue with the IPPS.

    And yes I overthink how he interacts with the IPPS all the time.

    1. Hi FOTS,
      Mine was always very polite too. Only a slip of the tongue/mask in a line now and then, but he never yelled at me or insulted me. I think it is how their false self is constructed, if their false self is about being a good and nice guy, they will always strive to be like that (and be very accustomed to that).
      So good to read that you are not contacting him, by the way. Good for you!

      1. Shesaw & FOTS, I got polite too. But I did sense the underlying, “you won’t like me when I’m angry”. I got a tiny taste of it once (CD). That was enough to keep me stroking the fur in the right direction. Cats are polite too, until you do something that doesn’t suit them. Then the teeth and claws come out and no more Mr Nice Guy! Eggshells anyone?

        1. MB, I did something that didn’t suit him. I got the stare, I got silence, I got ‘the silence before the storm-activity’ (and then complete silence, followed by a friendly comeback) – but he never ever was insulting with words (the silence was insulting enough, tough). He hinted few times at his inner darkness, but would refer to it as joking when I asked him questions about it. Do not open the box…

          1. Shesaw, you are correct, the silence hurts! It speaks loud and clear, “you are worthless to me.” It doesn’t take much to make me feel “called down” like a child and made to feel ashamed and insignificant. I suppose some SIPSSs are easier to keep in line than others. Now that I get my answers from HG, I’m not inquisitive or persistent for attention.

          2. MB, the silences were the worst things in the whole relationship. I remember the first ST (test during GP) like it happened yesterday. I resented him so much for it, I couldn’t look at his face when he showed up a day later. Recalling it now, I wonder what kept me with him for nearly a year after. Such a skilled seducer he was! Yeah, I have to give him credits for that…

      2. Shesaw and MB….
        Yeah I have had many CDs. I have been giving him space which has lessened that somewhat. I still get intermittent periods of ghosting though.

        Your quote….

        “I think it is how their false self is constructed, if their false self is about being a good and nice guy, they will always strive to be like that (and be very accustomed to that).”

        …. This makes so much sense! He is ALWAYS the good guy, the nice guy. One time I said to him “You are the most polite, mild mannered and calmest person I have ever met”. His reply was “I have to be”. Not “thank you”, not “that’s nice of you to say”, no… “I have to be”.

        Looking back now I feel like I should have asked “Why do you have to be that way?”

        I am dying to know what the hell happened to him to make him “have to be that way”.

        Surely he must unleash his anger or rage in some manner right?

        1. FOTS, … you feel like ‘I should have asked’. I did ask such questions, but he would not open up. It’s too fragile. He did trust me I believe, but I was not allowed to come too close. It puzzled me, frustrated me back then. Not anymore. Two reasons (based on the strictly hypothetical supposition that he wants to open up):
          – considering myself: I doubt if I will be able to handle the rage, shame, feelings of worthlessness and anger that I believe will release if he starts opening up about his ‘inner sanctum’;
          – considering him: I believe he will feel very deeply ashamed about himself if he opens up to such an extent. Since the slightest feeling of shame is unbearable to him, his automatic defense system will take over, and he will most probably project it into me (silence or devalue) and run, run, run…
          So it’s a lose/lose situation.

          1. “He did trust me I believe, but I was not allowed to come too close.”

            Pretty much this, word for word! Another phrase I frequently heard was “you are getting too close, again, and I am getting uncomfortable, again”.

      3. Mine too. Extraordinarily calm and always kind to my face. Cold fury only twice and at a distance. But I noticed early on that he had a very limited emotional range overall – never extremely happy, sad, worried, anything emotional really. He had a good sense of humor, but that was about it. It is partly the mask of being the good guy but I think it is also that showing anger – at least for a mid-ranger – means showing emotions, which means displaying a weakness/lack of self-control.

        1. SMH,
          Again, pretty much word for word what you said. I had a few heated exchanges via text and then silence but never really much anger. And yup, good sense of humor too. The only time I ever saw him overly excited or happy was when he was talking about movies or TV shows. Specifically anything involving Marvel or DC comics, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings or music (orchestral only).

          1. FOTS,

            Must be the disability speaking. I do believe this is all connected. It is just a mystery to me how it is and I guess what emotions are in a real physical sense. I can understand someone being more or less emotional but the question of what emotions actually are, and what it means not to have any (or to have few or shallow ones), intrigues me. I wonder how it feels inside HG’s head…

            So, Marvel Comics? Harry Potter? Sounds like my own boy child. Maybe it is the stunted emotional growth? Stops when they are around 12?

            I never talked pop culture with mine. I tried – I would embed obvious lyrics in my messages, play music and occasionally send him links. But he had zero response. I think he read, but only science. Very left brained.

            I also think he had food issues. Does yours? An eating disorder, which he did his best to hide from me.

            His Instagram reflected my experience with him. Flat affect, couldn’t focus on the shot, off center, no food, lots of sky, water and airplanes – escape routes.

          2. SMH,
            Yes, he is very much like a child when it comes to anything entertainment related. Pop culture and nostalgia too. Everything is from the 80’s when he was a kid and in some cases also the 70’s before he was born (for example, most non orchestral music). He prefers orchestral stuff. I half-heartedly said once “Maybe someday you will write me a song”. His response was “it does not have to have lyrics does it?”

            Interesting that you would mention stunted growth. He is very passionate about anything superhero related. He does watch lots of Cartoon Network shoes too like Adventure Time, Stephen Universe and other anime stuff. This has never made much sense to me as he seems to have a higher level of intelligence despite this. There are many instances he seems like an “old soul” who is wise beyond his years. I am 5 years older than him and I cannot even tell the difference based on my interactions with him. In some ways he seems to surpass me if you know what I mean (and I consider myself of average intelligence). But yeah an “old soul” and “kid” combo kind of swirled together if that makes sense.

            Narc personality traits or not, whatever he is, he’s the most fascinating person I have ever known.

            Yeah he never replied much to anything I shared. But he did always read it. He never misses a beat.

            Food issues? Interesting you mentioned that. At the start of things I never saw him eat much in front of me. He would have his coffee and maybe a cookie or 2 (that I used to bake for him). Later on he would tell me that he does not like to eat in front of people unless he is “very close to them”. I used to buy him his favorite candy and rather than tear into it he would put it aside and calmly say “it will be gone by tomorrow”. He will occasionally have a meal with me but it is usually something small. I do not think he has an eating disorder but if he has gone back and forth with losing lots of weight and gaining it back. Before I met him he was really thin. Now he is definitely heavier but I never really minded. Not sure though if he has an eating disorder.

            As far as Instagram and other social media it’s generally selfies of him and his older daughter (not his baby son)….or the occasional selfie of himself or pics with his coworkers. He is not a very frequent poster though….less than 8 pictures a year and up until this summer he had not posted anything in over a year.

            It is intriguing to me too. Odd but intriguing. I am always dissecting behavior wondering what is real and what isn’t. I mean I get that they pretend but surely something(s) must be real, for example the superheroes and music stuff.

          3. FOTS, Sounds like yours might have some body image issues?

            I think the real stuff is what we only glimpse but by that I mean the weaknesses. The pop culture stuff you speak of is all surface, right? Like mine with boating – the only leisure activity he ever mentioned. I posted a picture of me on a yacht this past summer in case he looked at my FB – my boat is bigger than yours!! Haha.

            The real stuff is for IPPS because it shows vulnerabilities and requires trust. They don’t trust us not to poke holes in them because they are not giving any loyalty or support so they do not expect any in return.

            Mine would also generally only have coffee with me (black, as narcissists prefer black coffee). Whenever I would mention food he would reject whatever it was – totally innocuous things. He would say he was allergic or he didn’t like it or something along those lines. When he mentioned food it was only to complain about having to eat something weird or a bad tummy while he was traveling, etc. I became fascinated early on by this food thing because he wouldn’t even let me make him a sandwich, so I did pay attention…

            Maybe food was symbolic – meant for family and friends? Meant intimacy? I dunno but I sure found it bizarre. I have no relationship to food at all. To me food is to stay alive and has no special significance – but to a lot of people it is a highly charged subject.

            Mine is not a frequent IG poster either. Maybe once a month, though I have not looked for ages. I believe his kids made him do it or IPPS did so that when he was traveling he would have to post where he was – a way for the family to stay connected when he was away. For me, that was also a way to track him (I did tell him, but not when I was doing it). The whole IG thing was so weird but it would take a book length treatise to write about it…you would not have been able to tell that he and IPPS were a couple from IG or FB (hers).

            Anyway, all of what we are talking about here makes me think about the control issues that narcissists have – that control extends to their bodies, to fundamental interactions and to really minor things. Again reminds me that we are not dealing with regular people and that it must have to do with brain wiring because otherwise how could they all be so similar down to the small things we are discussing here?

          4. SMH,
            Interesting. And yes I too have noticed the intricacies right down to the slightest details too. Another thing that stuck out was his contradictions with whether or not he drank alcohol. One time he would tell me that had too much to drink at work during lunch when his anxiety was getting the better of him. Then another time he told me that he did not drink any alcohol because he was always worried of becoming addicted to it. Then another time we were at dinner and he ordered a Bourbon. Straight! So odd.

          5. FOTS, Another control/vulnerability/body issue? Very interesting.

            I haven’t given alcohol much thought but maybe MRN was a fairly heavy drinker. On several occasions he contacted me drunk or told me a drinking story (12 shots at a workplace event – 12 shots? A middle aged man?). IPPS also seemed to drink a lot – she’d post pics of cocktails/drinking during the day. I am not a big drinker at all- MRN and I only drank together a few times and not much – but maybe both of them are alcoholics and that is the ‘secret’? I could never figure out what he was hiding otherwise because they seemed to lead a pretty conventional life.

      4. Smh

        The food the has to do with showing vulnerability. To be hungry or need food is one of the most vulnerable states you can be in which equates to weakness.

        Hers the real crack a lot of the have problems going to the bathroom when you are around or can’t be around or know when you go to the bathroom. I have read that many times and both my Narcs had this the lesser much more than the mid range

        1. Lori, makes sense about the vulnerability. Both narcs (Lesser and MRN) had food issues. Lesser also had body image and digestion issues – all those repressed feelings!

        2. Lori
          This cracked me up! Not that I at all doubt the veracity of what you said, but that it is the exact opposite of my Pretzel!

          He has zero inhibitions and seems oblivious to other people’s opinions. The first thing he does at my house (after soaking up how much the dogs love to see him) is to go through all my cabinets and refrigerator looking for food. He also refuses to use my Japanese toilet and instead goes outside in my driveway behind my SUV, which he calls the “outdoor urinal.” Lol!

          I think his sense of entitlement trumps any inhibitions he ever had! Rather a relief to know that everyone’s narcs are not like this!

          1. That’s funny, Windstorm.

            HG, you need a post on the narcissist and food (or maybe the narcissist, intake and elimination).

          2. I would but I’ busy eating this delicious banquet the minions have prepared but some fool has forgotten the finger bowl so I cannot type for too long otherwise the keyboard will become dirty.

          3. Windstorm
            Ok, I’ll bite. What in the hell is a Japanese toilet? Please tell me you named it Dumpling.

          4. NarcAngel
            OMG! A Japanese toilet is one of the greatest things ever! It is like a high tech bidet. Heated seat, washes you with warm water, dries you with warm air, even pulls thru and deodorizes the air so there is no smell. Then it periodically cleans itself, as well. I don’t understand why they have not caught on here in America. It’s a piece of technology i could no longer live without. I’d rather live without a microwave oven. They are expensive, but worth every penny!

          5. I worked for a company with a Narc CEO. As time went on and he made more and more money, he had other people do more and more for him. We had a joke around the office that he would be hiring for somebody to wipe his ass if anybody wanted to apply!

          6. Toilets are a good souvenir I have from Japan indeed. One of my narcs loved them. I still laugh at the memory of hearing him having fun with them.

          7. Windstorm,
            Ha ha, I didn’t know that about Japanese toilets. Seriously, there’s always something eye-opening to learn on this blog, and it’s not only about narcs and empaths!

          8. Windstorm
            Japanese dumpling.…You dump in it.…wah wah…

            Well you must be the Belle of the Ball out there in the woods with your fancy coogie car wash. Take care not to dry on high. You wouldn’t want to get chapped lips.

          9. NarcAngel
            Ha, ha, ha! Yeah, I very well may be the only person in my county with a Japanese toilet! Which I just don’t understand why they haven’t caught on here in the US. They’re easy to install and so much superior!

            The Japanese have person hygiene down. My son’s apartment in Japan had a separate bathing room with half of it a huge, open shower (that my grandkids would have had a blast playing in!). The other half had a monstrous 3 foot deep, computerized soaking tub that easily would fit two large people. It kept the water at whatever temperature you programmed for however long you wanted. When you were finished, you flicked a switch and the entire room dried itself. That way there was no moisture for fungus to grow.

            Too costly and impractical to put a bathing room in my cabin, but I’ve got my wonderful Toto toilet!!

          10. Windstorm
            That bathroom (more like spa) sounds a dream. Excellent for watersports and no need to hose it down.

          11. NarcAngel
            No kidding all 4 of my daughter’s kids could have played under that shower or had a blast in that tub!

          12. WS, that tub sounds heavenly! Soaking in a bubble bath with a glass of wine is one of my most favorite things!

      5. Windstorm
        Mr. Lesser had no problem with it regarding himself but he never and I mean never wanted to know if I had to go to the bathroom. It literally grossed him out to think of it.

        That actually shows how they think of you as an appliance. Appliances don’t need to go to the bathroom and they do not fart! Omg a fart would lead to permanent disengagement lol

        1. LMAO about a permanent disengagement coming after farting!! Hahahahaha!!! I fart and burp ALL the time in front of Piano boy. He finds it funny. I usually rate the burps or farts on a scale of 1 to 10 also. He would laugh uproariously.

          However he never returned the sentiment which I now see is odd. You are onto something there….

          1. I find this whole burping and f***ing (hate that word!) thing very odd. How can you have sexy time after that? How do you segue from a burp that’s a perfect 10 to intimate relations? Not judging. I think it’s wonderful that you are comfortable enough to be yourself. I don’t see myself EVER getting that comfortable though.

        2. Lori
          OMG. Is THAT all it takes?
          I wish you’d have said sooner!
          You’ve cured narcissism with a can of beans.

          (I’m joking-not mocking just to be clear).

          1. Clarece
            Do you mean the red rocket causes internal terrorism resulting in air biscuits?
            I don’t like the word farting either. Anyone for anal aeration?
            Sorry. No need to reply. I was just talking out of my ass.

          2. NA, you’re killin it today! If I didn’t know better, I’d think it was Fun Fuel for all Friday.

          3. “A can of beans…or dare I say it…maybe period sex too? lol”

            Hahahaha!!! Been there, done that. Period sex doesn’t phase them. Well in my experience anyway.

          4. Earn those red wings!!

            Haha my husband has no problem with it, but I can’t see Mr. Cerebral going anywhere near a menstruating female!

          5. Oh good grief HG….I had to look that one up on Urban Dictionary. Yeah, I never did that, thankfully. There was plenty of snowballing that went on though. Piano Pants really enjoyed tasting himself.

            Aannnnnd I have revoked my TMI pass for the day now I am sure. Thank you, thank you I will see myself out. LMAO….

          6. I didn’t need to know what snowballing was either FOTS! I’m obviously very much in the dark. I can say with absolute CERTAINTY that my husband would rather die than engage in either! He would puke at the mere mention!

          7. My curiosity made me do it. And it is apparent that I need some education in this department anyway. I have wondered what it meant, “the only unnatural sex act is one you can’t perform”. Your teaching knows no bounds, Sir.

          8. Okay I had to look up all of those. Oh my Gawd…..and I thought snowballing was ridiculous! HG you are utterly hilarious. Have you tried any of those? Inquiring minds (aka: mine) would love to know.

          9. You looked them up? The Feds will be kicking your door in, in three, two, one….

          10. Hahahahahahaha!! Yes I did look them up. I am not scared to look anything up. Like the meme says, I need one of those medical alert bracelets that says “delete my browser history”. 😳😂

          11. Gabby
            “I need one of those medical alert bracelets that says “delete my browser history”

            Never heard that one! Cracked me up! 😝

          12. Oh no! I looked them up too. Curiosity killed the cat AND MB!

            My guess is, FOTS, there’s not much HG hasn’t tried in his quest for fuel.

          13. I somehow missed this part of the thread earlier. So HG, did you share that Lebanese breakfast or was it all for you? Lol
            I had to look these up. Still couldn’t find the German Tightrope but I think I’ll manage the next half of my life oblivious just like the first half.