Lies

lies2

You breathe. I lie. Both come to us naturally. To you, an empathic and caring person who is imbued with the traits of decency, honesty and integrity the act of lying is anathema to you. Even the use of a little white lie as it spills from your lips has you feeling uneasy. You conduct yourself in a way that involves avoiding lying and you would rather stay silent than let an untruth escape your mouth. Not only will you not lie,you detest being lied to. The lie shatters trust. Trust is a fundamental ingredient,in your world, to any relationship, whether it is between spouses, colleagues, parent and child or service provider. Without trust nothing would be achieved and the world would be a darker place. Breaching that trust is a terrible act and where your trust has been broken by the issuing of a lie then you react with horror, anger, upset and dismay. I can think of no better device for drawing an emotional reaction from your kind than the issuing of a lie. Those three letters create a small word but one which has all manner of repercussions. From the lies that accompany infidelity which strikes at the core of the relationship, to the lies told by those in power to remain a demagogue and achieve political expediency, the effect of not telling the truth is substantial and enormous. Lying results in damage. Lie to your friends and you lose their respect, lie in a court and you commit perjury, lie about your circumstances and you commit fraud,lie to your children and you begin to warp their world, lie to your other half and you destroy a part of them. A small word which packs a thermonuclear punch. So easy to say, so simple to use and the effects can be devastating. No wonder my kind and me relish its use. Economical and effective, no other tool comes close to the power of telling lies and this is why we use them repeatedly,often and extensively.

The advantage of their use is by telling you a Long Involved Explanation we lead you up the garden path and around the houses causing you to become confused and bewildered. The advantage to us is that the terrible truth of what we do becomes Lost In Explaining what we have done by use of our convoluted and twisted diatribes. We tell untruths from the moment that we seduce you as we detail to you our Lovely Ideas Embellished with falsehood about how we will achieve a promotion in under six months, climb Mount Everest and interior design our new impressive home. The fact is that we are fantasists who exaggerate our achievements and our plans so that the Lucid Ideas Expand beyond reality. The use of lies assists us in evading the finger of blame. You will try and catch us our but there is never a Lapse In Exposition as we weave an ever more complex web in which we wish to ensnare you, leaving us untarnished. You look on in astonishment as Laughing I’m Escaping accountability yet again. No matter what I have done, no matter how heinous the activity I will allow untruths to spill from my lips with consummate ease so that I remain in control, superior and blame-free. Often it will be a short and bare-faced lie, designed to have you speechless with incredulity as I walk away Laughing Inside Energetically at your shocked face. On other occasions, I will engage in the shaggy dog story, going round and round, adding more and more to the tale so that I Lovingly Insinuate Eventually that you are the one to blame and this makes you react all the more. How can we have the audacity to say such things and turn the blame onto you? Look It’s Easy, we have no sense of remorse or guilt for the things that we say. You are burdened with a conscience and a moral compass that causes you to steer a path so you always stick to the road of truth. We have no such compass. We do not have a conscience and this allows us to weave and twist, taking our explanations into the realms of the fantastic. Whether we are boasting and bragging about what we are or seeking to escape culpability we will lie incessantly. You will plead with me to tell the truth. You will promise that there will be no upshot, no comeback and no consequence you just, for once want to hear us speak the truth. You know the truth but you want me to tell you, so you can hear it for once. Like I’m Ever going to do that. Why should I give you something that you want? Why should I cede control to you ? Most of all, why should I give up the opportunity of gathering fuel from you? This is why we lie extensively, even when the truth might actually serve us better (better when judged from your viewpoint of course – not ours) we will gain fuel. Our twisted lies always cause you to react and provide us with fuel. If a situation is Lacking In Emotion we know that all it takes is for us to tell you a lie, the bolder the better, the more brazen and ridiculous it is the greater your reaction will be because you hate lies and you hate being lied to. As you stand before me frustrated and upset, I am Laughing I’m Escaping yet again any responsibility for my actions. I will smother you in untruths, layer lie upon lie, Literally It’s Engulfing you in falsehood so that you no longer even recognise the truth, such is the level of distortion. We lie to everyone. The man in the corner shop about how many goals we scored at football, lies at work to cover our backs and to plunge knives into the backs of others. Lies to a friend about how much we like him just to keep the Little Idiot Entertained. Repeatedly we will lie to you to ensure you remain Locked In Entanglement with us and cannot escape. We use lies to express our false sorrow, our faux remorse and our promises to change just so you will not Leave In Earnest. We show-off with lies in a crowd to bring the spotlight back on to us as we talk over other people because we Like Interrupting Everyone. The lie is a Limitless Invigorating Example of what we really are. A fraudster, a charlatan, a con-man and a pathological liar. We know no other way and we have no desire to embrace any other way. I will always lie, I am Loving It Everyday because it furthers my schemes, underpins my ambitions, avoids accountability and brings me fuel again and again.

I am always telling lies.

And that’s the only truth.

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140 thoughts on “Lies”

  1. Does anyone have days where you just can’t wrap your mind around the fact that it was all a lie ? I am.having one of those days even though it’s been months and months since I last spoke to him and almost a year since it began to unravel.

    Very hard to get my mind around that it was all a lie.

  2. Windstorm I ❤️❤️ love this. I felt your granddaughters love all the way to the Midwest.

    Since we’re telling stories (gag me stories for HG) I was at the store Friday night. There was a little girl there with her grandparents. She was chatting away nonstop and you could tell by the look in the grandparents eyes they were numb to the chatter at this point. She continued all the way up to the check out. All of a sudden she stops talking, looks up and says “I love you so much grandad”. That little girl has no idea how many hearts she captured that night with those words. I smiled all the way home.

    1. I’ve just told three children that Father Christmas does not exist – just for balance you understand.

      1. Ha, ha, HG. That’s when we have the talk about the poor, hardhearted people who were never good enough for Santa to visit them, so they pretend he doesn’t exist.

        I also used the, “Hey, you all know how lazy I am and how I hate to shop. And we all know your Dad would never buy all that stuff. If it wasnt for you all believing in Santa there wouldn’t be anything Christmas morning!” That logic always worked with my kids and was the absolute truth!

      2. Ha ha you didn’t lie, and was setting things straight, parents build that lie only for a child to be distraught when finding out the truth.
        Talk about being set up to be knocked down.

        If we didn’t teach them from birth there was such thing as Santa your words would have had no effect on them.

        I need to lay off the chocolate covered coffee beans, I feel like I am jacked up on coke and ready to…….

  3. This doesn’t really fit here, but I wanted to share this for those of you who will enjoy it (HG, try not to gag).

    I’m in Kansas with my daughter’s children. I have always had a very special empathic bond with the 2 year old granddaughter ever since she was born. Every day at some point – without me saying anything – she will stop what she’s doing, look up at me and say, “Grand-maman, I love you, too” as if I’d just said it to her and she is answering me. I can feel her love broadcasting out at me. I figure she must feel my love as well, even though I didn’t say it out loud or even look at her directly.

    Moments like this about make my heart burst! ❤️
    Hope you all are having a great week!

    1. WS
      That was so beautiful, thanks for sharing that moment. Children are like little angels and they should be loved unconditionally.

      1. K
        Too true. And little children love us back unconditionally. That’s such a wonderful feeling to be loved that way.

        1. K
          “It is absolutely wonderful to be loved that way”
          I wouldn’t say this to anyone else, but you know me, and my first thought was:

          How the f*** do you know? (I wouldn’t either)
          Thats my twisted sense of humour. Laugh. You know you want to.

          1. NarcAngel
            Ha ha ha…after I posted the comment, I thought the same thing and I thought of you, too, because neither of us have experienced unconditional parental/sibling/intimate partner love. Unless it was mirrored and we both know that’s bogus.

            But, when my older children were little they would hug and kiss me and tell me that they loved me. My eight-year old tells me that she loves me and she hugs me and, recently, she told me that her dad doesn’t love her. She knows he can’t love and she is starting to recognize it.

            Sometimes, I wonder what it would feel like to be loved by a parent or lover.

    2. Wow that is beautiful Windstorm. I wonder if that is an early sign that she is a contagion empath. I think I have seen in one of Twilight’s posts that you are a Magnet Contagion Empath. I wonder if it can be genetic. I wonder if the typ of empath we become has some genetic factors in it as well.

      1. MommyPino
        I believe there is a large genetic input for both narcs and empaths. She has been highly empathic from birth, but she is not a contagion. I realized that when she first started talking. She is always compassionate and caring, but she doesn’t actually feel other people’s pain like I do. She reacts to it, but she doesn’t feel it like it is her own.

        She had a baby sister who was crying because she didn’t want to go to bed. Anyone upset or crying tears me up and I was trying to not interfere with their parenting and not go to consol the baby.

        My little sweetheart came up to me with a very compassionate face, patted my arm and said, “Baby cry” in a consoling voice like she was trying to say, “it’s alright Grand-maman. Babies cry. She’ll be alright. Don’t feel so bad.” She couldn’t have been over 20-22 months old herself then.

        1. Windstorm

          What you maybe seeing as her not feeeling is only her flowing with things, IMO she showed compassion when she patted you and told you baby cry, she was responding to your pain she felt and reassuring you the baby was ok. If she is as she grows more traits will become noticeable.

          1. Twilight
            Yes. She definitely recognizes other people’s emotions and responds to them, but always in constructive ways ( like patting my arm and trying to soothe me when the baby’s crying upset me.). But she never gets frightened or upset by other people’s emotions like I always have. If she were a contagion, I’d think as an infant and very small child she would show signs of being adversely affected like I did and have to learn coping strategies with time – which she has not done.

            I could easily be wrong, though. I am my only real example to go by and reasoning on one example is by nature faulty. Perhaps she is a contagion in that she feels the emotions but my daughter is correct that being in a loving home where everyone is treated fairly and everyone takes care of one another will allow her to grow up into a confident, caring empath able to deal with others emotions in healthy ways. She already approaches all situations with confidence and watchfulness, not fear like I often unfortunately still do.

          2. Windstorm
            Thats interesting to think about re: nature vs nurture. Only children that is. Some have exposure to many other children and social experiences (aside from school), but many like yourself are isolated and dont have that chance to observe early on and and you say – may develop a different focus. Differences in parenting aside that is.

          3. Windstorm

            Your feelings of what you think she would show as a contagion because this is how you feel.
            She recognizes, responds and try’s to sooth at the age of two, she “hears” you and verbally acknowledges this, she never gets frightened or upset by others emotions (recognition of her emotion vs others).
            My money is on your granddaughter is Contagion, environment has no influence yet in the bigger picture will be an asset to her growth and potential. If I am correct as she gets older she will start to show traits that others do not have. You have a special little girl there Windstorm

          4. Twilight
            I do know that she is a special little girl! I’ve felt a bond with her like a kindred spirit since she was a tiny baby.

      2. Mommypino

        I believe it is genetics more then environment with a Contagion. I have this same connection with my 3 yr old granddaughter and have been observing her. She is starting to show specific traits, I have always felt she is a Contagion, the first time I looked into her eyes I recognize her. When in the presence of another Contagion we know, we see, we feel, and we understand. We don’t need words. I suspect from what Windstorm has written her granddaughter is a Contagion, if she “hears” her Grandmother and is responding. Time and space is meaningless to us. We can be miles apart yet feel as if we are in the same room.

      3. Twilight, I agree. I have never met a Contagion in person but a two year old responding to unspoken words and energy being emitted by her grand-maman sounds like little baby signs of what is to develop as a Contagion later on. It’s absolutely a precious moment.

      4. Windstorm
        These are profound experiences!
        You’re deeply communicating with one another, and I recognise the deep bonding that is occurring with each interaction. A deepening and reaffirming of that bond.
        That pure love and acceptance.
        That equal flow of respect and valuing each other, that feeling of being at home with one another all without words, and also WITH words to underscore it.
        It has been made possible by the emotional safety that you have created as a foundation. I have wanted to give that to my nieces and nephews too, and also to everyone that I love, and that I’m friends with.
        I prize that emotional safety. I’ve never had it with a N in retrospect. Never had it with my parents. I gave that to mid-ranger Somatic ex-N, and it was the first thing to be exploited. The claw-marks of that exploitation that we’ve all suffered leave deep scars.
        You’re creating a claw-free space for your lambs. How precious that is!
        What a legacy.

        Your beauty touches me so much. Now your two yr old grand-fille does too.

      5. I wanted to add that my empath niece (now a psychologist), was three years older than her brother who has Asperger’s.
        Once he became verbal in his own way, in his unique language not understandable to anyone else, she would translate for him into English. She’d say “he wants a drink of water”, or “he’s too hot”, or “he wants his blue woolly hat on”, etc. All accurate and precise.
        I found that fascinating.
        He found his poor verbal skills to be inversely proportional to his levels of frustration and to be the cause of his subsequent lashing out in anger. Poor little man, he was.
        Other little chaps at his early learning school were faring the same way with speech, frustration and anger.
        My niece sensed his deep frustration, and loved him, and had compassion for him. She was helping him maintain his dignity as well.
        I marvelled at this.

    3. HI WS! What a precious little nugget your granddaughter is! I told you your loving energy just emanates right off of you without you even knowing it!
      Any spot is good to hear a story like that!

          1. You’re welcome! I didn’t notice the typewriter the first time as it was blending into the carpet. Did your daughter see this pic? She has probably never seen a typewriter in her life!!

          2. Hi Jenna! It’s hard to believe that hideous red, shag carpet was all the rage. Haha
            My daughter did see this pic. I found a box of old photos around my bday in Sept at my parent’s house.
            What’s funny for me seeing this, is I heard constantly from my mom and my maternal grandma growing up to “get a good office job with benefits” for security. Mom was starting off from the get go with my little typewriter.
            My daughter and I were talking recently about jobs and she threw out there how fun it would be to have a cubicle (desk job) to decorate the cubicle and make it cozy. I’m like, Sweetheart, nooo, you don’t want a cubicle job. You’re in a fishbowl where all your coworkers hear everything you do and you hear everything they do and a little piece of your soul dies each day. You want the big corner office with windows with actual walls to decorate. She laughed and said she still wanted the cozy, cubicle desk. I told her get the big office and put a cubicle around the desk in there. #Aimhigher

          3. Clarece,

            That’s cute your daughter wants a cubicle desk. I think she must be attracted to the decorating aspect. I’m sure she will grow out of it. The red shag carpet lol! I saw that the carpet was red, but did not realize it was of the shag variety😂
            Somehow, it does not look hideous in the picture. It all flows nicely together!

          4. Hi Jenna, She is incredibly creative and that was the total allure for her being the decorating aspect. Plus in her classrooms, they have never had rows of single desks like I had growing up. Always groups of 4 at a table to encourage group interaction almost on everything. I try to encourage other fields of study being that she is a left brain, very creative child. I would not want to see her confined to a cubicle, office job, unless it truly was a profession she enjoyed. Not one groomed for her by her parent. I’m very good at what I do but I certainly do not feel passion towards it. Working with my best friend (in an office with no security cameras, haha) has its perks too. So I’m not complaining.

          5. Clarece,

            She does seem like a creative child. I am impressed by the desks arranged in groups of four. I also like how you are guiding her towards many options out there. You’re a great mama clarece!!

            Now back to narcissists before hg scolds us… 😄

          6. Hi Jenna!
            I can share another school story that will bring the convo back to HG approval status.
            My daughter, “O” has been in kindergarten with a classmate, a girl, who is pushed excessively hard by her mother for a specific path. Her father is a doctor. Her mother a professor at the University the girls go to the Lab School at. The classmate’s older sister played golf and was very successful at it. Therefore this classmate has been pushed to excel in golf also. Parents expect this to be her ticket to college and once there, she is expected to become a doctor, like her father. Her life is mapped out. Her time, since 5, has been divided between golf lessons and piano lessons every day after school. For a couple of hours. After school, especially in the younger grades, this classmate always had to go to the homework lounge and could not play on the playground with her classmates. The parents are wealthy. Both drive Lexus’, live in a McMansion in a gated subdivision. The first time my daughter went to her classmate’s house for a birthday party / sleepover, she had never known people that keep plastic over their living room furniture to prevent the sun from fading the fabric. The living room was in fact, off limits and my daughter was told by her friend that they only take the plastic off when they have their annual Christmas party. So we have the perfect museum type setting at home. My daughter thought that was absolutely wacko. I have trouble with that too. Anyways, an example of how this classmate is pushed and treated is one day last spring I went to pick up my daughter from the After School Program and her extracurriculars were done so she had gone on the playground with her friends. This classmate, being a little older and braver now, decided she was sick of always being the goodie goodie doing homework and snuck outside to be with everyone. When I say “snuck”, I mean she thought she would slip back in time before her mom came to get her. I happened to walk in with her mom to pick the girls up and sign them out of the program for the day. Upon seeing her daughter walk in from outside with mine, she was getting a full on stare down. My reaction every day when I see my kid is more like “Heyyy, how was your day Sweet Girl? What’s new and exciting?” And they are walking out next to us…silent. Later that night, said classmate texted my daughter that her mother gave her a silent treatment the whole ride home and sent her to her room without dinner for disobeying and going outside (apparently with all the minion children). She was pretty upset. The Dad never gets a say in the discipline.
            So fast forward to this past fall about 2 months ago and this classmate was helping my daughter with some math homework, after school in the homework lounge, and they got on the subject of parenting styles. This friend told my daughter she sees herself being the same way to her kids as her mom is to her. My daughter, very surprised, said, “XXXX, why would you do that? You know how awful your mom makes you feel.” Her reply was, “I know. I want someone to feel the same way I’ve been made to feel.”
            Talk about needing to export their pain. I found that absolutely chilling. Future narc parent in the making at the ripe age of 12. I had a long talk with my daughter that night about a lot of these cycles of abuse. That classmate is going to end up on some therapist’s couch at some point.

          7. Clarece,

            That story hurts. I can’t imagine sending a child to bed without dinner, especially. The plastic on the couches sounds pretty rigid, a good example of the mother’s mindset perhaps.
            “I want someone to feel the same way I’ve been made to feel” – she definitely is choosing, by free will, the non-empathic road. It will lead to increasing narcisstic traits. Contrast that with someone like windstorm, who decided, through free will, that she does not want to be like her parents. I strongly believe that we choose our own path. I hope this little girl doesn’t end up with full blown npd. I am glad you had a talk with your daughter. Hopefully she will be strong and protect herself frm questionable people.

          8. I agree Jenna. It becomes increasingly difficult to make idle chit chat with this girl’s mom at school functions where she’s all smiles. The kids are getting older and starting to share more snippets of their family lives with their friends. I was pretty shocked too at the mindful decision this young girl was making, obviously dealing with lack of approval and highly criticized by her mon regularly. Instead of thinking she could form a different, completely opposite bond with her children someday, she already sees a future outlet for her anger and resentment. And an intervention could probably happen and soften this, but 6 more years thru high school and then college if she’s forced to follow suit and become a doctor with the way her mother dominates, she’ll be done for.

          9. Clarece and NA (mention of NA towards end),

            I hope an intervention does occur for the little girl, but sadly, her mom would probably not set that up. I pray that this young girl doesn’t develop narcissism.

            I also wanted to say that I read about the anxiety you experienced as a child, and I’m very sorry to hear that. It definitely does prime us to be easy targets for narcissists later in life. I am glad you found this site. You are probably one of the earliest members here, and I really appreciate your presence on the blog. I also appreciate NA’s presence, and do realize she tackles things using humour, which may be her technique of diffusing the hurt she’s experienced in her past, as you’ve indicated you understood her perspective. I adore the both of you, and have to say the blog would not be the same without you two (group hug!). Ok hg, I mean the ‘comments section’ of the blog would not be the same without them!! Would you like to join in the group hug hg? I didn’t think so!

          10. Jenna
            No worries Jenna. Clarece and I recognize we have very different approaches and opinions but we are respectful of that and each other. Where a situation (seldom) occurs that requires some clarity (as in this case), it is easily remedied by discussing and clearing the air. There was no intent of malice or disrespect in my response to Clarece which I have explained in a separate post and all is well.
            NA

          11. Absolutely NA! I knew I could comfortably ask you what you meant and give you a nudge to say, hey I was being serious for a moment.
            By gones now!!😉

          12. NA and clarece,
            Is it time for a group hug? Even though it’s been remedied, I think I need any excuse for a group hug!! Hg, you want to think again about joining? We don’t bite! Everyone is welcome!! Lol! We are the tudorites!!

          13. You are just our sweet Christmas Elf here, Jenna! Big hugs to you and Merry Christmas!!

          14. I always love hearing from you Jenna! Thank you for the kind sentiments. Finding this site has been such a game changer for me and has played a tremendous role in shaping me into a hopefully stronger, wiser person post divorce and post JN. Earlier on, I never expected the feedback I got from other readers being interested in my story or the questions I would ask HG. It was such a pleasant surprise. I’m very sentimental about Narcsite.

          15. Clarece,

            Well said. I too feel sentimental about narcsite. Sometimes I feel protective of Hg too, meaning I feel sad when pple attack him and feel like I should intervene. Sometimes I do, but usually Hg handles it very well because he’s a grown man (and that too well skilled at handling negative fuel) but I don’t know why I feel defensive when newcomers are mean to him. Either Hg or NA set them straight and then I sigh a breath of relief.

          16. Hi Jenna, let me clarify…I meant to say my daughter has been in school with this particular classmate for 8 years since kindergarten. They are both in 7th grade now.

          17. Clarece
            I worked for over 4 years in a cubicle at a large corporate headquarters. I did love mine and decorated it as a zen meditation room. There were probably 100 cubicles in the large open downstairs area. I worked for a crappy company, though, and one of the vise-presidents walked the mezzanine every day with a note pad. He would stand and look down into our cubicles and take notes on his pad about whether he felt we were working hard enough, who was talking and if we were eating. It was both intrusive and creepy (he was a narc pervert).

            Yes, your daughter definitely wants an office with walls and a door that closes!

          18. WS, they can fuck micromanagement sky high! MB don’t play that. Love your minion gravatar!!!

          19. WS, I bet you had the coolest, chillest cubicle in the whole joint. I did work at a law firm specializing in insurance collections so where the collectors worked with rows and rows of tiny work stations, there was the Ops Manager who would do the same thing as your Vice President and walk through inspecting everyone’s work flow. It’s to induce fear and intimidation. I hate when managers project that vibe. It is intrusive and creepy!

        1. Thank you Mommypino! Rockin’ those flared plaid pants circa ’74. Lol
          Merry Christmas to you! I hope the step daughters leave you free of their holiday drama this year!

          1. Clarece
            Ha, ha! I rocked my flared, plaid pants in 1974, too, but I was a senior in high school!

            You were a very cute little girl!

          2. HG, I was thinking of you (and SV) in the shower this morning and wanted to ask you something. I saw an interview where he detailed a couple of incidents where his mother abused him physically in truly life threatening ways. He could have died. Was your mother physically abusive that way?

          3. It hurt my heart greatly to hear of some of the injuries his mother inflicted upon him. (SV) The way he spoke of it with no emotion as if he were detailing something he had read in a book or watched on TV was astounding.

            I don’t know if I could bear to hear similar from you. I don’t know him like I do you. I treat my dogs better than that woman treated her own flesh and blood.

          4. MB
            Thats the dark side of the narc side and why it’s not discussed much in any detail here. Not that it’s too painful to talk about – but that it’s too painful for others to hear.

          5. That’s true NA. (Painful for others to hear.) It didn’t seem to be painful for him to describe. At least not that was obvious to me. As is well known here, I am a rejector of negativity. I prefer that bad things don’t happen in the world. Head in the sand.

            Also, i know that emotional abuse can be just as damaging as physical abuse. There’s just something about physically abusing a child or an animal that makes me want to choke the life out of the abuser.

          6. MB
            Look at you having a soapy threesome! Tell the truth…Sam dropped the soap in front of HG didn’t he?

          7. No NA, that was me haha. Damn slippery soap! Seriously, the things my mind thinks of in my morning shower…I have had some of my best ideas in there.

          8. Oh but I do. With all of your pop culture references throughout the blog from day one and your books. I do.
            It all goes back to when you name dropped Telly Savalas one time. No one born after ’80 would ever name drop him.
            So…. I know….I do…nah, nah, nah

          9. As I have pointed out before, I know about the Battle of Hastings but I am not a thousand years old. To know does not mean that one was there.

          10. Point out all day long HG. Those are some sexy legs in that Gravatar pic, but they’ve also been around a few tracks…
            And I do know you are not as old as dirt for what it’s worth.

          11. HG,

            Lol! You’re really on a roll today! You are obviously well fuelled. I remember last year you returned frm a vacation and you were not in the best of moods. I am happy you are in a good mood! Now, repeat after me: ” I will not hurt people to boost my mood, I will not hurt people… ”
            Please repeat 100x …

          12. Awww Jenna…you’re just spreading a little Fa La La La Merriment. I’m feelin’ your holiday vibes!!

          13. HG
            Re: being loud

            Haha. Are you looking for an NA silent treatment for Christmas? Just say the word and I’ll fill your stocking.

          14. Thank you WS! Flared jeans are making a comeback. It’s just a matter of time for the plaid pants to reappear!

          15. Plaid pants making a comeback?

            Good god. My ass will look like an upholstered couch. If corduroy returns I’m finished. My thighs rubbing together will cause my pants to ignite and lead to an untimely death.

        1. Hi K, thanks for the compliment!
          A few years ago, I took a class at the University I live by and part of the registration process was to get a full physical. My doctor asked me to bring a record of all my childhood immunizations. My mom kept a log of that in a Baby Book she kept for me. So I brought that in for the doctor to read from that. Included in that was an EKG done on my heart at the age of 7. I just remember having episodes with my chest hurting and trouble breathing. The doctor said that would not have been a normal test around that age but I never had another one.
          Turns out I was having mild anxiety attacks. It passed after a few months. My parents fought a lot while I was growing up. I just heard things like, “oh Irish / Italian household. They’re feisty.” Dad was a “hot-head”.
          So it’s a bit weird for me to see pics from way back in my childhood sometimes. At first glance I can see the cute kid everyone else is seeing. But then so much more makes sense on why I was painfully shy and introverted growing up too.

          1. Maybe my wardrobe caused me to have anxiety at the age of 7 requiring an EKG of my heart? NA…that’s kinda cold. I wasn’t joking around in that post. That was kind of me being serious and sharing something personal. Or maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to make light of? Not sure.

          2. Clarece
            Here was the thought process and what lead to the comment.
            We were joking about how cute you were and about your pants. Then it seemed to trigger a memory for you that sounded a bit dark (which is not typical for you). What appeared to you to be an ill-timed and insensitive remark was only an attempt to bring you back from any darkness or anxiety the memory caused. That was all. Humour depends largely on the recipient and I apologize for missing the mark and not affording your comment the gravity you felt it deserved.

          3. Hi NA! Thanks for clarifying how you meant your comments. I want you to know I do get your humor and appreciate it tremendously. I see for you on the outside looking in where I must have made a swift shift in tone. Whereas for me in my real life, there are undercurrents with aging parents and dynamics that I’ve been dealing with for some time that blur together when I blend childhood memories now. My brother and I have parents who loved us very much and did everything they could for us within their means. They were good to us. Not exactly to each other. Then that leads to that Catholic guilt of I certainly haven’t suffered the way some have. On the other hand, I feel like I’ve watched two people shred each other up and stay together for the sake of til death do you part, better or worse, Catholics don’t get divorced, etc. Holidays tend to polarize that somewhat. It was very jarring to me 3 years ago, when I went for a routine physical and to get some updated immunizations and discovered that some medical test I vaguely remembered from childhood was actually an EKG with the cause being anxiety. At the age of 7. A lot of what shaped me then and made me very withdrawn and introverted has affected me thru adulthood and again, primed me for people like JN. So I’m just juggling a lot of that on the sidelines.
            But back to you, I appreciate you were trying to tug at me to snap out of it. Thank you for explaining! All’s good!

          4. Clarece
            Oh yeah, the old Irish/Italian/Polish/German hot-headed bullshit. A nice piece of blame shifting there. Let’s abuse the kids, give them anxiety/PTS and then excuse it away with ancestry. The kids are fine (gas lighting), they are resilient and bounce back. Bollocks!

            You shouldn’t have had to grow up in a war zone, you deserved better than that and I am sorry you had to put up with it.

          5. Wow K, you nailed all 3 of my nationalities- Irish, Italian and Polish. I was screwed from birth. Lol

      1. Thank you Clarece! Merry Christmas to you too!
        Don’t worry, stepdaughters are not invited this year. I’m sticking with my GOSO.

        You are so adorable and those pants are the cutest!! I love your adult picture too. You’re very beautiful.

    4. Windstorm

      Please don’t be offended by my comment, I get slightly defensive when I suspect a child maybe a Contagion and someone might not see it.

      If I have I apologize.

      1. Twilight
        Not only was I not offended, I have no idea which comment u made might even be considered offensive. But if I encounter it today I won’t be offended either.
        I, too, am always on the lookout for children highly affected by emotions.

        My daughter and I were just discussing that last night. She thinks it was environment that made me what I am much more than heredity. Her opinion is that if I’d had a healthy emotional childhood with close siblings that I could play with and learn how to better process and deal with emotions rather than them becoming a focus in my mind, that I would have grown up much more normal.

        She believes her children will grow up this way since both she and her husband are loving, involved parents and the kids are all close in age and treated equally. She very well may be correct. Her 2 year old daughter is very empathic and caring of others, but I can see that she already can separate her feelings from those around her better than I ever could.

  4. Scene: Santa’s looking over HG’s Christmas wishlist.
    “All HG wants is lots of new pairs of pants. Why is that? Oh yes, his existing pants are constantly catching fire.”

    Ha ha!

  5. Saying they don’t want drama is just another lie. They live for drama. The only time they don’t want “drama” is when they’re being bested.

    The narcissist said this to my husband and threatened to take action if I emailed her again. “The next time she texts me I’m going to do something about it! I am not interested in her drama!”. I laughed out loud when I read it and accepted the challenge. She didn’t reply again and her threat to “take action” was as empty of any will to challenge me as she is.

    1. My narcissist stepdaughters always posted on their FB that they hate drama and they don’t like poeple that bring drama. They constantly provoke me whether passive aggressively or directly and when I fight back they say I am creating drama again. The few times that I blew up they say I’m finally showing my true colors. I say yes this are my true colors when I have finally had it! Now that I went GOSO, you would think that they will have no more drama because I’m not around anymore. Nope! They are now constantly fightibg with each other. They are even giving their dad silent treatments and triangulating him with their stepdad. But, they also don’t get along with their stepdad and always get in fights with him too. So you’re so right about them complaining about drama but always creating it.

      1. MommyPino
        I think what narcs really mean when they say that they don’t like drama is that they don’t like other people’s drama. And that is true. They get really irritated by other people’s drama although they enjoy their own drama that they create.

        The difference is that other people’s drama puts everyone’s attention on the other person, while drama they create keeps the attention on themselves and their actions and lets them feel like a puppet master.

      2. Mommypino, I know you’re GOSO but if that ever changes do this little favor for me. Get the drama jab in first but say it as if you have no time for them. Something like “I’m in no mood for child drama today” It’ll make you feel warm inside to shut them down with their own words and if you do it in a matter of fact way they wont get any fuel.

        Your situation is hard especially being close in age and being a step parent. A group of girls that gang up on someone is childish and annoying but also dangerous especially when you insert NPD. They know there is power in numbers and it makes them brave. I have 3 girls and there is never a shortage of girls around here with them and friends. My girls are not angels by any means but their bond has grown into a positive supportive bond. Not at all what you are experiencing.

      3. Hahaha that is good Mercy! I wish I had thought of that before. My problem is I lack manipulative skills. Any minor manipulative strategies activates my guilt and I cannot excecute it. I remember when my narc half sister lectured me about cutting my really thin-sliced meat with the side of the fork and saying that I need to learn about American manners and that it is never acceptable to cut meat with forks like the Filipinos do. My husband was plotting with me asking me to cook meatloaf so he will cut it with fork in front of her and he has a bunch of words waiting for her if she takes the bait. I appreciated my kind carrier empath husband’s willingness to defend me but I never cooked meatloaf while my narc half sister was living with us because the thought itself of plotting against her feels different from the way that I am put together. Everytime that I fight back with my narcs are always instinctual reactions from being fed up. And then I am always overcome with guilt afterwards. GOSO is what really works for me. ❤️

      4. Oh and Mercy, you’re so right about ganging up. When they are together they are horrible. It’s like they are fueling each other to be mean to me. But when it’s just the younger stepdaughter (the bipolar), we get along so well and we laugh together. When I am with the older one, I think she’s a mid-ranger, she still has that sulky but superior air and she’s opinionatedly critical of everything that her dad and I do. Even criticizig the way that my little babies look. Which is why we think that the older one is manipulating the younger one. The older one is also critical of her younger sister. Everytime the younger one would try to achieve something, the older sister would explain to us in front of her sister why her younger sister doesn’t have what it takes to be able to achieve it. And the younger sister just accepts it like it’s the truth. And the younger sister is also the biggest fan of her older sister. So weird and dysfunctional.

      5. Mommypino
        Your insights into your N-stepdaughters and your family dynamics are so interesting.
        I had to laugh as I pictured the N-SDs as a small whirlwind of deflection blowing through life, and it being so obvious that the common denominator in their episodes of drama is them.
        And definitely not you, lovely girl.
        I imagine they’ll be blame shifting until they draw their final breath.

      6. Windstorm
        Your insights into human behaviour are profound and understated, and hold weight when considered from every angle.
        Are you currently able to do any writing to expand your thoughts, and share your wisdom with the world?
        Please can you?

        1. Caroline R
          Ha, ha, ha, ha!! That cracked me up! No, commenting here on Narcsite is my only writing outlet. I lack both the creative impetus and the desire to write. Writing here seems appropriate since we share common experiences. I can write out responses to questions and comments ’til the cows come home, but when faced with a blank page, I have no idea what to say, because I don’t know who I’m talking to. I feel my life is no more interesting than anyone else’s. We are all on our own life journey and what works for me or is important to me may mislead or hinder another’s journey if their situation is very different from my own. But thank you so much for your kind thoughts!

      7. Caroline, you’re right. If they are really narcissists they will be blame-shifting until their last breath. Thankfully I am GOSO now. But their poor dad who loves them unconditionally is still being manipulated. Like right now, the older SD gave birth and my husband has been calling her and asking if she is about to give birth but she never answered. Then she finally called him back and she’s already home with the baby. Then she posted pics of her mom and stepdad at the hospital with the new baby. She didn’t even tell her dad that she’s pregnant until when she was already about 5 or 6 months pregnant. He just constantly chases after them and they just keep giving him crumbs.

  6. Just a thought:
    “I don’t want the drama”
    “I don’t need this drama”
    “I don’t like drama”
    All statements made by Ns in my life

    “What type of movie is it?” “It’s a drama”
    “What type of play is it?” ” It’s a drama”
    “What type of book is it?” “It’s a drama”
    All statements made by empaths and normals in my life (& by me, obviously).

    Very different use of the word ‘drama’.

    1. Nice distinction you point out there, Caroline.

      If I ever again hear someone talk about not wanting drama, I will run for the hills. Either that person is projecting or, more likely, indicating that he or she has experienced plenty of drama in the past, mainly by inviting it or creating it him/herself.

      1. lisk
        thanks for your comment. I’ve decided that the mention of drama by a romantic partner is now going on the red flag list.
        Especially when they refer to your asking a question to clarify a legitimate basic issue as ‘drama’.
        Especially when they could have easily set your mind at ease with a few sentences right then and there, but weeks later, you are confused and hurt and none the wiser. They’ve taken you the long, hard way on a trip to Godknowswhereyouarenowactually. It’s not where you wanted to be.
        They know they’re creating it.
        Masters of projection!

    2. Interesting. The narc in my life also would say he did not want drama. And never seemed to watch or read dramas. But he actually caused a lot of drama with his behavior, seemed to thrive on the energy he got from being the cause of drama.

      1. Yes!
        I never heard another man in my life mention drama except in reference to printed or cinematic/theatrical media. Only the N boyfriends.
        And they were the source of it all!

  7. “I care too much for people and don’t want to hurt them” was his justifying for his lies. When caught, he would say “I was terrified to tell you the truth”, “I thought I’d lose you”, “How could I tell you something like that, you would have left me!” and so on. Caught multiple times, he would rather flee when confronted rather than accept the evidence, deny everything in spite of all proof and retort with aggression or cover the lie with yet another lie.

    1. “I was terrified to tell you the truth”…. ‘I thought you were angry’ …all the same. Which is also absurd..like you presume to know my mood. ….

    2. Vera
      “I care too much for people and don’t want to hurt them”

      This “reason” makes me furious. In my birth family, the narcs and codependents lied like this all the time. It is as if they assume the rest of us are unable to deal with truth. They would even conceal terminal illness from the sick person or her mother (doctors used to go along with this). This particularly horrified me. A person has the right to know what illness they or their children have, no matter what it is.

      And they played puppet master with all types of details and situations that would annoy or upset people if found out. To play god and deliberately lie to others ostensibly because you “care for them too much to tell the truth” is the worst type of hubris in my opinion. Everyone has the right to both know the reality of their personal situation and to deal with it themselves in the way that they see fit!

      1. deliberately lie to others ostensibly because you “care for them too much to tell the truth” is the worst type of hubris in my opinion.
        Wow…somebody saying something I agree….’you would have been angry if I told you’ or to a friend ‘I didn’t want her to be angry with me’..a lie is a lie and covered by such ‘concern’ is like a bad joke. With a dangerous effect: told to a third person there is also the blame on the supposed angry person.

      2. Windstorm, I agree 100%. They take away our right to choose, to be in control of our own lives. I often think if I had the right to make a choice in the beginning based on the truth and not lies and illusions that were created, I wouldn’t be where I am today. The excuse I get is “I didn’t want to hurt you”. Well not only am I hurt but now I don’t trust. They create damage and try to put a band-aid on it with “I care to much to see you hurt”.

      3. W.S,, Vera, Eva, Mercy
        Good points.
        I have been thinking today that the abuse from co-deps having become as warped as the Ns they’ve been with for years, is just as damaging as N-abuse.
        You think they’ll see your side, show you mercy, act decently, tell you the truth, and protect you from harm.
        No.
        You realise with great dismay and sadness that they’ve thrown you under the bus with both hands, and speak to you using the same script as the N.
        In hindsight, they have trianguated you, manipulated and coerced you to further their own agenda. Just like a N.
        I’m seeing my Dad with fresh eyes, and I don’t know how I can have anything but an acquaintance relationship with him now. His treachery has lost all my trust.

        1. Caroline R, that is an interesting thought. In some cases when the co-deps are aware it makes them even more guilty. Especially when it comes to a parent.

          I do not consider myself a co-dep but I know that I have traits. I never exposed my children to the narc abuse and I left their father when they were young. Now that they are grown and I’ve been exposed to another narc relationship, I see that I have been guilty of what you say at times. There have been moments when I would say anything to get rid of the competition even knowing the competition was being subject to abuse just like me. It’s as if I wanted the abuse exclusively for myself. If nothing else could be all mine, can I at least have that?

          When I was talking to a therapist last year I told her that sometimes I feel like I’m fighting to keep the abuse in my life.

      4. Mercy
        Thanks for your further thoughts.
        We are so complex, and we empaths will morph to survive. We are all on the empath-survival-spectrum, and I read Ross Rosenberg say that given the right (abusive) circumstances, an empath can behave in very co-dependant ways to survive. He speaks from experience.
        It’s interesting.
        There’s a part of me that wants to feel that familiar pain of N fake love. I have to keep that part on a very short leash. It’s a patent leather, mock croc leash with platinum metalware; it’s dark and twisted, but also needs protecting. I give that part love and respect but she doesn’t get voting rights now.
        I understand when you say you feel like you fight to keep the abuse in your life. We really are very complex. I still have feelings for some of my Ns.

        Not my N-sister though. She is the inspiration for my anger this week. My explosion of rage has been 20 years in the making (see “O come all ye empaths” thread). It could be titled “when dignified, loving and patient empaths finally snap”

        1. Haha Caroline I saw your little ditty, your anger is obvious. I relate to anger the most. It’s easier to embrace the anger rather than feel sorry for myself. At least I feel like I’m actively involved in this whirlwind. Feeling sorry for myself makes me feel like I’ve given up.

          You are right about being complex. I had a little breakthrough today. Events happened recently that caused me to see my narc as weak. A situation he caused as a result of his lies and manipulation backfired on him. His composure is gone and his facade has been exposed.

          Now that he is vulnerable I have no attraction. This says something about me and what has kept me there. It has to do with dominance I think. How this fits into my recovery I’m not sure yet. It’s very exciting to discover though.

          Your comment about wanting to feel the fake love is understandable. I’ve caught myself thinking “could you fake it at least asshole”. Seriously, once they take it away the fight to get it back lowers our standards. We’ll take the fake stuff to survive. Crazy isn’t it?

  8. -Locked In Entanglement with us- . You lie, ok…what really happens in your mind at that moment? when you say those words, do you know that you’re lying? or do you believe in what you say. In ‘your’ truth? I know what happened in my mind when I saw him embracing me and telling me that he didn’t want to lie again, and he telling a lie about a work stuff at that very moment. And the lie was discovered as I directly asked to the supervisor. I felt shock, sadness, anger. And I told him that he is a pathological liar. He went to see a psychologist, formally for this reason and eventually he said to a friend that he was enjoying those sessions, as he was understanding how much he was renouncing with me. Yesterday night I realized this point. One of the last lie was about a train, a two o clock at night that he had taken for arriving home. But he lives on trails and there was no train at that time. People of your kind do you really believe that we are so stupid to believe all these stuffs? but I see the point..discussion, angers, tears and all what come with this.

    1. Lesser and Mid-Range believe their lies. Greaters know we are lying but do so convincingly. If you wish to understand more about why this is and how it works, I suggest you organise a consultation Eva.

  9. And “the universe” provides (your post upon opening wordpress)…a timely reminder. Thanks for this truth. It is truly etched into my soul forever more. 🙏🏻

  10. Pingback: Lies ⋆ NarcTopia | NarcTopia
  11. t is such a relief to read this. It makes me feel sane after an 18-month texting relationship with a narcissist. I have 600 pages of correspondence. The whole process – idealization, devaluation, gaslighting, discard, triangulation, many side-sources, and pathological lying, are all there. I am a recovering codependent and he said what I wanted to hear, promised what I wanted to believe, but all along a small voice inside me told me I was wading in dangerous waters. I am not sure what category of narcissist he is, but his behavior was so similar to everything you write. The lying was what made me realize he was a narcissist; it was when I started researching “pathological lying” that I learned what narcissism was and all the pieces of the puzzle made sense. When I called him on his lying and told him I did not believe most of what he had been telling me for the past 18 months, he responded by attacking all the things he knew mattered to me in a way that made it impossible for me to defend myself. No matter what I would have said, he could claim I was “crazy.” And he had the power to spread that rumor about me professionally and knew he wielded that power. He had clearly studied my psyche very carefully, even when I did not believe he was paying attention, as he had a very good idea of how he could hurt me the most. I never responded to this attack of his and have not heard from him again. It has been three months.

    1. Elise Marie
      Thanks for sharing your experience with us
      It’s like reading from my own journal, except my long-distance N relationship was of a shorter duration. Mine was a Greater, and when I couldn’t take anymore BS and ended it, he became so malicious it scared me.
      The hoovers will happen, so stand strong. No contact and time to heal is in your best interests now. Do you feel safe?

      1. No, I cannot say I feel completely safe. I feel like he is waiting in the wings; it is pretty clear to me that he holds his past “interests” in reserve, “just in case,” and that I am one of the few that has figured him out; I think he just fades out of the lives of many of the women he uses, and they don’t really know why or were not that interested in him so don’t care that much. It is also clear to me that while he gets his fix from women who are successful and accomplished, if he senses that they are very secure and protected, with a flawless personal life and a strong and established professional reputation, he just leaves them alone, as if he tries to smear them he will look bad. But if he senses a weakness or vulnerability, I think he is very capable and willing to attack. Since beginning no contact, I am much more aware of why he targeted me and drew me in, why I allowed it, and now I know what he is. I believe mine is also a Greater and he knows how dangerous this is for him. I noticed that his entire family quit posting publicly on Facebook around the time that I outed him. So I am quite sure he said something about me to all of them – that I was stalking him or something. (When I outed his lies, I pointed out that he had lied to me about who his family members were and that this was easy to ascertain via the internet.) Even though this was long distance, because we had common professional interests and acquaintances, it is entirely possible that one day I cross paths with him, even by accident. I must practice these scenarios in my head and prepare: Grey rock. Grey rock. Give him nothing. No threat, no anger, no interest.

      2. Elise Marie
        So very interesting.
        I’m reminded of the intense cognitive dissonance I had for about 18 mths after the ex-N I mentioned.
        Nobody else understood.
        After weeks of completely OTT threats and vitriolic calls and emails, (& smearing in the press though he didn’t use my name) he sent me (in Australia) a big box of everpresence from the US. I had no idea why. The box contained, amongst other things, a t-shirt doused with his fragrance.
        Bastard.
        It was twisting the knife that he’d stuck in earlier. I found out later he had a girlfriend in South Africa the whole time. He treated her abysmally. He could only get away with it because he travelled.

        It’s difficult when you might cross paths professionally. It took me some years to not react when I’d see an ex-N cardiologist at work. He was a Greater too, now I think of it, another handsome, smart, successful bastard. I only found out he was seeing another woman when my work colleagues told me one day. Their faces a picture of dismay as they said “he’s announced his engagement”.

        The day before his wedding he called me, never mentioned her, acted like nothing had happened. Acted like we were still together. It made no sense.
        He wasn’t nasty afterwards, thank God, but would still try to pull my strings. It was painful. I think that as he valued his professional standing, and knew I was highly regarded, and as we still worked together, this kept me ‘safe’. I was glad to be able to go to work in another department where we’d see each other less.

        Your insights into your ex-N have reminded me about my ex-Ns, and have given me greater clarity. Thank you E M.
        With regards to your safety, can you leave a copy of your documents with someone you trust, until you see how it pans out? If you have any feelings of being threatened or stalked, can you discuss it with the police? They understand domestic violence. It’s difficult to know what Ns will decide to do when it suits them.
        I wish you peaceful sleep tonight, and continued healing.
        And success with your fuel-free response practice!

      3. EM
        It’s an interesting observation about your ex-N keeping ‘ his past interests in reserve, just in case’. I’ve been thinking about those words this week, and remembered that my ex-N cardiologist and I never had a goodbye conversation. It never officially ended. I just moved to another department. The chemistry between us never changed. My goal every day was keeping my cool, and maintaining my dignity. I always had the feeling that I was in reserve.
        My N-Mother thought he’d leave his wife and come back to me, and at the time I wished that would happen. He was the first man I could see myself with long-term.

    2. he had a very good idea of how he could hurt me the most.

      ..I can really feel this sentence. Everytime I explained what had hurt me the most of a single actions, behavior, episode..something similar, but even more cruel, happened later. The last act of the show -and final discard- was an almost failed triangulation with a friend. But he knew that we were communicating, so his lies emerged in these conversations. He never admitted, most probably he had another reserve ready for fuel. So my closure was almost his closure.
      I hope that in these months you recovered some spaces in your mind for your own thoughts. The real thing I don’t miss: getting crazy about many sentences and fact checking them.
      Caroline…thank you too..all your comments here are good starting point for reflection. Sometime they also bring back the rage. I guess is common.

  12. “I try not to create drama.” — Narc Friend.

    The interesting thing is that I don’t think Narc Friend lied to me very much until his compartmentalization failed. I suspect he avoided lying to secondary sources generally because keeping track of many stories would have been too difficult, but lied to them on an as-needed basis. Everything he told me checked out for the first few months, with the exception of some mild future faking that just made him seem hot and cold.

    I was actually shocked at how glibly he lied to me at the end; it was obvious to the point of insulting. Honestly if he just would have been forthcoming about his multiple sources, I might have just stuck around and kept chatting with him. But he would have had to admit what he was doing then, and we can’t have that . . .

    1. to the point of insulting…this is why I realized that was going to be insanely dangerous. Double lies to me and a common friend on very sensitive matters. As you said ‘so obvious’…but that friend, in order to be nice, tried to cover his lies and minimize. It was like giving him a wave of energy and the insult on my side were too much. When I realize that we are about one week to Christmas is like seeing another world. I am still puzzled and confused by those lies and how they resound in my mind. Do you also find yourselves in the act of thinking to lies and justifications even now?

Vent Your Spleen!

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