The Super Empath
It is well known that our kind target those who have empathic traits. Just like those of my persuasion operate on a spectrum, those who exhibit empathy do so as well. There are those we might regard as the “normals” those people who have some narcissistic traits and some empathic traits. As ever, when I use the words empathic and empathetic I state them with reference to certain traits such as empathy (clearly), honesty, kindness, decency and such like. I do not use the words in the sense of being in tune with the world and the environment. The normal are in the centre, possibly leaning one way towards my kind or the other way towards your kind. It is extremely rare for a normal to be ensnared as primary source because put simply, they do not cut the mustard. Their emotional responses are not sufficient, their empathic traits whilst evident are not sufficient to either bind to us or provide us with the fuel that we need. Such a person would easily pass a homeless person begging, a person crying alone on a bench or somebody who had fallen off their bike and injured themselves. They are self-absorbed but not to the degree that our kind is. They will help if they really have to, but they do not go out of their way to act in a way that causes harm to anybody else.
Thereafter come those who are empaths. Empaths are always targeted as primary sources. They often fulfil secondary roles as well. They are rarer in a tertiary source position since if they are an empath, they would be better suited to either being a primary or secondary source. We would not want those empathic traits to go to waste. The empath has a good range of empathic traits those of honesty, decency, having a strong moral compass and being a good listener, just to list a few of them. They may not have all of the empathic traits that we look for, but they will have several and exhibit them in a concentrated form. Thus this person would look to donate to a charity, hand a wallet in that was found in the street, help a stranger who is in distress, sit and listen to somebody who has problems and acts of a similar nature.
Next comes the Super Empath. This person is not a co-dependent. Both the Super Empath and the co-dependent have many, if not all of the empathic traits that we look for and they have them to a stronger degree than the empath. For example, both might take the homeless person under their wing and take them to a shelter, maybe even house them themselves for a period of time. They would try and locate the person who had lost their wallet in order to hand it back in person rather than say hand it in at a police station first. They will listen to the person with problems and then offer practical solutions to resolve those difficulties. The co-dependent gains validation from such acts through giving and has to do this to an excessive degree even when it goes beyond what is good for themselves, such is their inherent addiction to the act of giving and selflessness. The co-dependent may not actually be that strong an individual (they are in the sense of the abuse that they can soak up) but they are not strong as they have no identity to assert, they must form one through self-flagellation, giving and not taking. They are masochistic in nature, driving themselves to the point of collapse and illness because they lack the strength to escape and the desire to do so from the clutches of our kind. Lesser Narcissists and Mid-Range Narcissists hook up with co-dependents especially because they give, give and give but do not fight back. They challenge themselves, blame themselves and always make excuses for their abuser.
The Super Empath is also a giver but whereas the co-dependent is masochistic in this giving, the Super Empath does so from a position of strength. They hold their ability to empathise, to heal, to fix and impart goodness as a great gift and one which ought not to be abused. They are drawn to our kind less because of the co-dependent’s need to seek validation of identity through a narcissist, but more because they are initially attracted to the apparent emotional output of the narcissist. The false strength which the narcissist exhibits at the outset of the seduction, the confidence, the apparent satisfaction with his self, that he appears comfortable in his own skin, at ease with others, capable of lighting up a room and so forth is a huge attraction to the Super Empath because that person actually sees something of themselves in the narcissist when the narcissist is seducing. That is not to state that the Super Empath is a narcissist. Far from it. But the Super Empath is just as engaging as the narcissist and thus there is a mutual attraction. The Super Empath is also more challenging to the narcissist and therefore is usually the recipient of some Mid-Range narcissists and most often the Greater Narcissist. This is not because the Super Empath is awkward or reticent but rather she will be forthcoming with her empathic traits once she feels that they have been earned. Accordingly, the narcissist must put the extra miles in, in terms of seduction to ensnare the Super Empath. This person needs to be coerced into sharing the fruits of their empathy but once that trust has been earned, once the gate has been unlocked the benefits are huge. The Super Empath shines with empathy, glows with decency and pours forth delicious fuel.
This continues during devaluation. The empath and co-dependent are easier to “break” in terms of causing negative fuel to flow. The Super Empath is made of sterner material and will resist the negative machinations of the narcissist at first. This may result in the narcissist dis-engaging if he does not feel able to impact on the Super Empath and seeking fuel elsewhere. The Greater knows who he has ensnared and knows once again he must unlock the fuel source, this time negative, of the Super Empath and once it is done the tidal wave of fuel is to be enjoyed. The Super Empath will remain, wanting to fix the narcissist, exhibiting again the same empathic traits of others on the empathic spectrum, but again being made of sterner stuff, their descent towards numbness and malfunction is far slower than that of the empath. The Super Empath will keep providing the fuel but deteriorates at a slower rate. The risk factor however with a Super Empath is that their own personal integrity is greater than the empath’s and very much greater than that of the co-dependent and consequently of all these three classes of empath, the Super Empath is the one more likely to make a bid for escape and thus leave the narcissist with a cessation problem.
The challenge of unlocking both positive and negative fuel proves an attraction for the right type of narcissist because this allows him to assert his superiority and enjoy the challenge. The reward is magnificent. Excellent fuel and such that deteriorates at a much slower rate. The downside is the potential for the Super Empath becoming “aware” of what is happening, becoming unwilling to dedicate further energy to staying with the narcissist to fix and to heal and thus escaping. The Super Empath requires fairly careful management by our kind, but the rewards always mean that this person is a challenge which is often accepted.
310 thoughts on “The Super Empath”
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Definitely me. My Narc persued me for 6 months before I would even give him the time of day. He was consitantly consistant thus the reason I let him in. He has forever ruined my ability to trust.
HG (and others), there is something about the Super Empath that I don’t understand. In Sitting Target, you depict the SE as a “regular martyr” who will “always put us before themselves and they do so in a masochistic way, deriving pleasure from seeing our needs met ahead of our own.” This depiction contradicts my initial understanding of the SE – wouldn’t their narcissistic traits that are numerous and strong(er) by definition prevent acting in such a way? Perhaps I am missing important nuances here.
*ahead of their own
Not initially, but they draw a halt to it far sooner that the other schools of empath, Saskia.
HG,
“Not initially, but they draw a halt to it far sooner that the other schools of empath…”
To clarify: Super Empaths draw a halt to putting the narcissist’s needs before their own far sooner that other schools of empath. Did I understand this correctly?
If so, what do you mean by ‘far sooner’ – as in sooner in the relationship? Or sooner in the dynamic? I’m confused because you have said the SE’s will tolerate a lot of ‘abuse’ – does this equal staying longer within the dynamic?
Sooner in the dynamic. All empaths tolerate a lot of abuse, but some more than others, that is why we select empaths.
Thank-you.
Interesting, thank you for clarifying.
I’m an SE, and I’ve found I my healing group that, compared to almost all of the others who survived Ns, I “took it” for a shorter amount of time than they did. But the biggest difference in us SEs than others is our treatment of the N once devaluation starts. Our own narcissistic traits become brought to the forefront in reaction to the Ns abuse, and we often reach into the Ns own toolkit for our responses to the N: silent treatment, wounding from criticism, gaslighting, etc. all have their place in letting the air out of an N’s tires. The important difference being is that we remain empathic, gain NO fuel from our narcissistic actions, and apply certain tools only on the N and only in existential self-defense.
We also, or at least I and the few other SEs I’ve met, tend to be more difficult to control completely. Despite truly planning on spending my life w/the N, I felt something was “off”with him, so I never shared a bank account, gave him access to my electronics or passwords, let him have spare keys to my car, etc. It made escape much easier …and still he chased me and our son through two states after I left him b/c he was livid that *I* did the leaving, and he still managed to steal most of my life savings due to my mistake in missing ONE utility account that was a joint account.
I hope this helps some, and please forgive my personal story tangent. 😉 I see what my financial situation has become as a cautionary tale of how smart and dangerous a wounded N in heated fury is capable of. My N was only a Mid-range Elite N; I can only imagine the physical danger I would have been in from a lesser and the complete financial ruin plus extended court battle (and who knows what else) I would have experienced from a Greater.
A well stated and accurate post.
NarcAngel
No reply button hence here.
“I’m just a girl standing in front of a salad asking it to be a donut.’
That is hilarious… Cracked me up..
Ever the unspoken mantra at lunchtime too.
Oh… You do make me smile and often on a day when I really need to and I haven’t got one….love it… You always top me up…haha..
Gnite..early night for me.
(Though I’m still chuckling)
Leanne
High levels of empathy can be a burden, but thank goodness for empaths. They make life more livable and/or more interesting (for others…haha).
Cannot see where to place this comment in line…
I did after all rewatch S2, Ep3 of The Windsors and yes, I totally see your point HG when Harry’s about to shoot James.
When Chuck tumbles to the fact that the door opens inwards, that is SUCH a SE trait. Overthinking. For example, one day a narc said to me, ‘If I gave you a chopping board and an onion, what would you do?’.
I stared at him blankly, was this a test? What was the right answer? (I was trying to impress him).
‘Would you chop the onion?’, he proffered.
So those writers…it just raises more questions really doesn’t it? To pick up on a trait like that, well one couldn’t pull out a detail like that from the article above. You’d either have to be an aware SE, an avid follower of The Great Work, or something else…
Even Chucks’ clothing is significant. The black jumper really reminds me of King Narc, Steve Jobs and highlights the N traits in the SE.
Or maybe I’m overthinking this?
Which book is the above article from K/HG?
Renarde
are you referring to the article The Super Empath? If so, that article is located in the book Jealousy and Joy, however, Sitting Target provides more information on the schools and I think you will enjoy that one.
Thanks K and yes it was that article. Funnily enough, I think ‘Jealousy’ I think I’ve missed! Cheers for that! x
My pleasure Renarde
I am enjoying The Windsors BTW and I am adding “fuck all” to my vast vocabulary.
Ahh…the word ‘fuck’. Noun, adjective or verb? John Cleese wrote about this I think? It takes me down rocky roads thinking about it. I’ve had many ditzy moments recently. I blame stress. Sometimes, like watching The Windsors, you get moments of clarity, like a point of focus in time itself.
Glad you’re enjoying it K! I can’t see if there will be a third series beyond the Sparkles wedding special.
Sad times 🙁
Renarde
You all have gotten me intrigued about “The Windsors.” I hope it’s still on Netflix when I get to Kansas mid February where I can watch it. If it is, I’ll be bingeing.
Try Channel 4s on demand service, if you can access it from the States that is. I found the Sparkles wedding special on there – that one isn’t on Netflix yet.
Thanks, Renarde, but I don’t have WiFi or internet in my home. All I have is old-time broadcast tv. I either wait and watch things when I visit my daughter in KS or buy dvds.
Ahh shame.
Same Windstorm! I feel like I’m not one of the cool kids! I have Netflix though. I thought it was a series on the BBC they were talking about that we couldn’t get.
MB
I just assumed Netflix was Netflix, but you’re right. When I was in Japan, there was different programming on Netflix there. If you have Netflix you could check and see if we have it here.
I’ll check Windstorm.
K
I worked with a woman who was delicate and very attractive to the men around us and they were delighting in teaching her to play cribbage. She asked me to look at her hand and to give her advice. I whispered in her ear my answer. You can imagine their surprise when they asked what she had and she laid out her hand with great flourish and declared loudly “FUCK ALL !!”. It’s a staple.
NarcAngel
Ha ha ha….coming from you, I am not surprised! It really is a great phase.
I’ll re-read ‘Target’. Infact, been meaning re-read them all again.
Much obliged, K
You see, Great minds eh H.G.?
Hg do you consider codependents normal? Or would you say they are disordered as well. I’m curious about this. I tend to lean toward disordered but am interested in your take
No they are in the empath group.
Which is not “normal” right?
The reason I bring this up is because Codeoendency is Inching ever so closely to being included in The DSM cluster B disorders.
Do I see myself as disordered? I hate to say this, but yes somewhat I think I am. I can be overly emotional and empathetic or other times cold and controlling. I know that I see and react to the world a little differently than others not to the extent of the narc but yes different than others. I tend castastrphize things easily
It is not normal, no.
This just in: I am not normal.
** happy dance **
Normal is the new boring
Hear, hear Mercy! I’ll drink to that. Beige be gone!
MB
We all have EPD. Beige be gone!!! I’ll drink to that.
NarcAngel
Ha ha ha…we all knew you weren’t normal from the get-go.
Is it Lori? I didn’t know that. That makes me unbelievably angry.
The interesting thing about Codependents ;with the exception of the doormat) will seem very normal to the outside world. It’s only the people that know then well that know the sometimes debilitating anxiety some deal with. Codependents are largely very anxious people and I suppose that makes perfect sense in that if you are dependent on the outside world for validation and self worth and always anticipating other peoples behavior that you would be anxious person from the uncertainty of it all. If there is one thing codependents across the board are fearful of is uncertainty. It’s the same with the Narc only much more severe.
I’ve known I’m not totally normal for a long time. I don’t think most people notice it but the way I react to things is and over catastrophize things isn’t normal. The fact that I’ve been in 2 Narc relationships isn’t normal either
Do you consider regular empaths as normal?
No.
Do you fell they are not normal in that they “over feel”. Normals are Vanilla to a narc correct? And Narcs abhor vanilla
Thank you for your answers HG. I really don’t know what it is with these people who claim you don’t answer them. I find you do a phenomenal job of answering especially with as many inquiries as you get
Thank you, I agree, it really is rather ridiculous to issue such complaints.
Normals are vanilla with some strawberry sauce.
HG, I’m behind on comments as I have been sleeping and you have been a very prolific moderator. (A well fueled HG is a phenomenon to behold!). So forgive me if this has been asked and answered already. The new lady, L, in red, what is her empathic school and cadre?
Magnet Super Empath.
And this brings me to the rest of my morning musings, HG. As a magnet super empath, unless she has been very lucky, L has certainly found herself as Narc bait in her romantic life prior to your courting of her. I must assume that she will share prior heartbreaks and catastrophes with her new love interest. In an ironic twist, would you advise her that this man/men was/were narcissists or will you just assure her that you would never treat her in that way?
I would listen and issue suitably supportive comments.
So wouldn’t HG Tudor her? Haha. You’re a verb!
Indeed I am the verb, I am the doer, not the done to. No, it would not be necessary for me to be Tudor the Tutor with regard to narcissism. I will be teaching the Shield Maiden other things though…..
You’re rubbing salt, HG! I’m nursing a broken heart, remember?
Not my fault – naturally!
Ha ha. As ever, that is a matter for me!
MB, apparently I’ve been sleeping the last few days because I missed ALL the comments about the New Lady L. I did see a glimpse of her on IG last night. How was dinner HG? Did you reach rock star status?
Dinner was excellent thank you for your kind enquiry. I, naturally, provided The Rock Star.
I had no doubts!
I’m very happy for you HG. My heart swells to see you this way. It will last if you want it to and something tells me you really want the searching to end.
Thank you. We shall see what happens.
It’s the experiment! I feel very lucky that you are sharing it with some of those that you accredit part of your success to. The readers.
Indeed and why not, it is part of the continued evolution and learning process for us all.
Hopefully she never finds out! She will feel duped and betrayed. But you’re used to be clandestine I am sure. I am truly looking forward to the evolution of the relationship.
She’s no fool, believe me. Massive intellect.
You wouldn’t have it another other way, HG. Superior targets attract superior narcissists. That is a compliment to HG, not an affront to anybody else. Massive intellect or not, if she finds out about HG Tudor, it will cause her hurt. Just so you know
If she finds out it will because I tell her MB.
As you know, that is the best way. For her to hear it from you. There must be trust in a successful relationship. Thank you for answering my questions, HG.
Pleasure, it is all part of the learning process.
HG
“If she finds out it will be because I tell her MB”
Well I guess that puts a fork in HG coming out to the world anytime soon? (while in golden period at least).
May you both enjoy these highest of highs you are now experiencing. It is always truly a pleasure to see people enjoying life in the moment.
MB
I have mixed feelings about that. While I agree and am grateful to have a front row seat to anything shared, I am ever mindful that a large part of the subject matter for the experiment is unaware that they are part of the curriculum.
NA, I had the same concerns and as the empath that I am, I put myself in her shoes. That’s why I made the statement that if she found out he was HG Tudor and all that it entails, she would feel betrayed and hurt. Regardless, of what happens, I have to believe it will turn out more positively for L than for any past target. You know me and my hope! Cautiously optimistic was a good way to say it. Besides, I’m having a great time seeing this side of HG. It’s super cute and refreshing. He’s no different than we are when we are first infatuated. I hope he will continue to let us be privy to the happenings. Why oh why can’t you create an NA Insta account? Last night was a lot of fun HG! I hope that’s ok to say on the blog. If not, just edit that part out.
I am different from empaths – you do not become infatuated as we do.
How is it different?
You have object constancy, we do not.
So it would be more accurate to call early empath “love” obsession, not infatuation?
Query whether it is an obsession at all.
I give up. It’s too early for me. My dogs woke me up. I should go back to sleep and ponder this later!
And then it goes to hell. The lack of object constancy is a bitch.
NarcAngel
I know what you mean. But in most experiments, all the subjects are not aware of the parameters, or even the true nature of the experiment. I remember a psychology professor explaining that if you agree to participate in a psychology poll or experiment, the actual purpose is always hidden behind an apparent false purpose. There are always levels, then more levels to any human interactions.
Most valid observation.
Windstorm
Thats true, and imperative to impartial results I suppose. I will watch intently the mouse and value all we learn from it. I just wouldn’t want to find out that I WAS the mouse (which I doubt will turn out to be the case here).
On second thought…aren’t we all sort of mice here? Hey look! They’ve put out cheese on a wooden platter with a built in metal handle to reward us. I’ll be right back………
Yes, NarcAngel!
Not only are we mice here, but we’re mice in all kinds of situations and relationships – from family, to work to big corporations like Amazon. We are constantly observed, manipulated and analyzed to determine how we can be used for others benefit. And if we’re honest with ourselves, we often are doing the same thing to people around us.
I understand the angst and worry about seeing HG with a new prospect, but aren’t all new relationships really experiments? Don’t we all have to constantly be on guard and expect deceit and manipulation? That’s just life. 🐀
Im on the fence here too.
Oh, and remember, “She is just a girl standing in front of a boy asking him to love her.”
MB
I’m more aligned with the meme:
I’m just a girl standing in front of a salad asking it to be a donut.
Hallelujah NA! I live in Krispy Kreme territory!
NarcAngel, hahaha you kill me sometimes…as I eat a donut in break
I had a peek on instagram i didnt realise you were on there HG. Id offer congratulations on your new love venture but if its based on narcissism then it wont end well. I do hope it does go differently tho and you can find happiness …true happiness. Be yourself not all the glitzy tudor glam just be you. I have to pause bc narcissists have a manufactured you. All the best!
Ok you know I have to ask HG is a Codep vanilla with strawberry sauce with an explosion of nuts on top ?
I would think to a Lesser a Codep is a full on Hot Fudge Sunday with cherries nuts whipped cream and everything. The Lesser was so taken with me at first. It was like he couldn’t get enough of me. He even told me you have no idea how hard I’m trying with you. You just have no idea. I believe he really was because isn’t a codependent the mother load of fuel to a Lesser. He was trying so hard that I think I had pretty much a golden period as opposed to bronze
I really enjoy this page particularly comparing your perspective as a Narcissist to my perspective as the Codependent. It really is quite fascinating
An explosion of nuts on top? You degenerate! Go and cleanse thyself!!
HG
I am curious about the new lady. You say let’s see what happens but you know what is going to happen
I do know though the Lesser had me as CAN IPSS and yes he absolutely believed I was “the one “ well until I wasn’t
I cant find narcangels comment i wanted to reply to but it got me thinking about different perspectives. When i commented on HG’s new relationship i was thinking from an empaths perspective of finding happiness and love but this is not every persons motivation in a new relationship and especially a narcissists. Happiness to a narcissist is what theyll be able to get out of that person. Once they can no longer get anything thats when they are no longer so called happy in the relationship and the pathway to discard begins.
I have to keep reminding myself that different perspectives exist and to a narcissist it isnt about building a happy future together its about using that person as a commodity until they are no longer able to give what the narcissist needs.
It sounds like she is very intelligent. Hopefully shes educated in the area of npd.
That being said id love to see a happy ending for both HG and the new lady but thats my version of happiness.
Hi HG, I wish you and Shieldmaiden the best outcome in this new relationship! You have helped me in so many ways with giving me understanding and advice through your work and so I truly wish you the best and that it will also finally work for you this time.
Thank you for your kind wishes.
I have a question can codependents be a magnet ? All of the Narcs I have known have said I have a magnetic personality to the point where it irritated them.
Yes.
Hi lori…your comment about vanilla ice cream with strawberry sauce and …nuts the narcissists add lol they add the crazy!
“But in most experiments, all the subjects are not aware of the parameters, or even the true nature of the experiment. I remember a psychology professor explaining that if you agree to participate in a psychology poll or experiment, the actual purpose is always hidden behind an apparent false purpose. There are always levels, then more levels to any human interactions.”
Oh the levels…..
HG
I meant an explosion of whipped cream but that sounds worse. Look at me entertaining myself. Ok now that’s even worse… ahaha. I shall shut up now
K, my understanding of object constancy is very rudimentary. Do you have any explanation that would help me as pertains particularly to HG’s presentation of narcissism? I would like to understand it better. Or HG, can you briefly account or direct me as to how it effects things in regards to the various schools, cadres, relationship types? Is there a place I can look?
Nunya biz, I’m no K (and don’t profess to be) but here is a link to an article I found and read yesterday after an exchange with HG about infatuation. It is one of those rare articles that accords and agrees with HGs teaching that there can be no change and no contact is the only way. I found it helpful in explaining object constancy which is what he refers to here as black and white thinking or split thinking I believe.
http://www.businessinsider.com/narcissism-object-constancy-2017-8
MB
The more the merrier! It all helps.
nunya biz
The definition below can be located on this link: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/understanding-narcissism/201708/why-do-narcissists-abuse-those-they-love
Object constancy is the ability to maintain your positive emotional connection to someone whom you care about while you are feeling angry, frustrated, disappointed, or hurt by that person.
This is the article that HG wrote about black and white (split) thinking:
https://narcsite.com/2018/12/09/why-the-narcissist-views-in-black-or-white-only-3/
The lack of object constancy affects all the Schools and Cadres synonymously.
MB, you are always reading, paying attention, you are here- I’d appreciate your input on anything. You are an angel, thank you. Reading that is interesting, I think I came across it before. What I think is that in my arguments with my husband I am the one who is a monster. I didn’t used to be, but his indifference to my feelings caused me to be like that because it is the only way to get through to him. And in the description, he is the “teflon”. Nothing sticks to him. Nothing. He is so indifferent to responsibility it’s mind boggling. And he remembers nothing. His behavior has improved through a lot of tiresome educating. And my feelings have evened out some through learning to detach from outcome because I cannot tie myself to his behavior. Most of his hurt has been caused by his ability to be indifferent for extreme lengths of time, there would be months where I wouldn’t fully exist. And acutely disregarding in moments of extreme pain for me. Other than all of that he comes across as “nice” and “agreeable”. He is consistent and pleasant, dad jokes,etc… with the children, though not in-tune or able to discuss emotions or decision making at all, I have to do all of that. If I were not here I do believe the consequences would be dire for them, but they probably have no impression of that.
He also employs a lot of circular logic while being completely unaware he’s doing it. I learned that the purpose of that is to get me to do something differently from what I am doing (such as stop talking, change the topic, forget that he exists, forget what I was saying), not at all to resolve, alleviate or clarify. The thing is he is extremely even tempered and nonreactive. He can stone wall though.
I have a really hard time with understanding all of that. I have always considered him cunningly passive aggressive and I come back to the fact that I’ve never felt he accounted for my feelings, only for how things effect him.
Thank you so much, K. Especially directing me to HG’s article. It is now reminding me of a few things, where in the past I made a mistake and would get emotionally stonewalled to a negative extreme over something that seemed small to me. Completely cut off. And yet his apparently solid even-temperedness (he comes across as vanilla, lacking emotion, reliable, bland, and can maintain that for yeeeeaaaaarrrrs) make him seemingly almost undetectable as a narcissist. I believe he is. He doesn’t do things like this as much, but there is always something because regardless of the progress he’s made he cannot change certain things and will always be responding inappropriately to things that require care and concern.
Wow that was long. Thanks ladies.
My pleasure nunya biz
Anytime you want to pull that article up, just type: object constancy into the search bar.
Your husband sounds like a midranger. He has no emotional empathy so he isn’t wired to care, tune-in or discuss emotions because he simply doesn’t understand them, also, he isn’t accountable so he won’t help with decision making (that’s your job; residual benefit). While your busy making decisions and running the household, he is free to gather fuel.
Facade maintenance: he comes across as “nice” and “agreeable”. He is consistent and pleasant, dad jokes,etc… with the children,
Your husband is completely unaware and everything he does is instinct. Circular logic is used to control (deflect), draw fuel from your frustration, hurt and confusion and assert superiority. Arguments are never resolved because he would lose fuel and control and that would jeopardize his construct/existence. Even tempered and nonreactive, he is definitely not a Lesser.
It is all about him nunya biz, you are an appliance and you are there to provide the Prime Aims: fuel, character traits and residual benefits. You are irrelevant and your feelings do not matter. Your husband is Numero Uno and he is the only one who matters, not you or your children.
It looks like your mistake was perceived as a criticism (you let him down), he painted you black and deployed a silent treatment (cold fury).
He can’t change and he doesn’t do “concern”. I think you have a bonafide narcissist for a husband.
So I say cerebral MR. He is adopted but his parents are both N’s, his mother cerebral, his father victim. When he is amicable though he is fine, I feel he drops all his narc traits. It’s weird, and confusing. I’ve seen him smile many times when I’ve been hurt. It’s the only real sadistic thing I’ve seen. I don’t think he knows why he does things.
So he was talking on the phone to his father a couple of weeks ago and his dad decides to tell another story (every phone call there is one and then he gets off the phone). Apparently he had paid for “cheat” inspection sticker in Boston for his vehicle, which otherwise wouldn’t pass inspection, from a con mechanic “ring” that was selling them. Then he went to the island for the summer where he grew up (very small town with some boastability). He got pulled over and the cop took him in under suspicion for the sticker and he had to appear in court and he had been put in cuffs and leg chains. His longstanding girlfriend showed up to support him, just crying in court at the atrocity and some old acquaintance of his was in an administrative position in the room and yelled “YOU CAN’T PUT THAT MAN IN LEG CHAINS, HE’S MY FRIEND!”. So the leg chains were removed.
I can’t remember the rest. But at least he’s funny.
“You want to make sure you reclaim your life in a different way. When you’re with a narcissist, you stop doing things for yourself because they don’t like you doing things for yourself,” Neo said. “Be really clear in your head that this person is a narcissist and really nothing can be done about it. The only thing you can do about it is to take care of yourself.”
This is accurate from your link, MB. I’ve had it with all of the narcs.
Btw, with regards to the car inspection story, I just clarified the ending with my husband. Apparently the leg chains were not removed because he announced to them that he didn’t need any special treatment and said that it was ok. He never revealed his source for the sticker, was fined hundreds of dollars and effectively protected the Boston mafia.
My father has some similar traits to this.
K,
I teared up a bit when I read your response at the gym, thank you. I’ve been a bit less in my humor the last 48 hours for some reason.
He doesn’t understand feelings. This used to be far worse, left me crying for hours on several occasions and simply couldn’t respond. I would sometimes ask him why he didn’t love me and I remember him once or twice saying he didn’t know. I know these things are true, I know they are, but he doesn’t act like that now exactly. Yesterday though I told him about someone finishing a goal and that I cried when I congratulated them and he said “why?” and chuckled. There are a lot of random disconnects while he is all fine and content otherwise.
It’s funny, I just now described object constancy to him and told him that it seems to me one of the primary differences and I told him that’s what I think my problem with him is. He didn’t disagree. Then I said “and I know you will throw this back in my face” and he said he wouldn’t and I said “yes within a month you will tell me I have no object constancy” and he said “maybe within a few hours”. He was joking, but he thought about the concept.
Surely when it comes up I will say it’s not a lack of object constancy if he’s actually an asshole.
Umm…. well my point is that I get switched around sometimes. He took the kids skiing today I think they had a great time, he’s easy going with them. I think at some point I broke down in my role with the whole facade thing because he could never say thank you to me or give me something just to see me feel joy so I was “malfunctioning” as HG would say and he never left. The facade of our marriage doesn’t seem to be that important he just expects I will be here because I am. At this point he “does concern” by reminding himself that he really should ask, etc… it’s not natural.
Mostly thank you so much for your thoughtful response. It meant a lot. I think the challenging thing for me is that I don’t particularly see him as fuel seeking but maybe that’s because I don’t fully get it. There are times that I do see people doing that. I mostly just see him as having a very narrow range of emotions and not being fully connected to them and therefore not being able to see mine. If anything it makes it harder for me that he doesn’t know.
You are welcome nunya biz
I am very sorry; it is heartbreaking to read what you are going through with your husband.
That missing strand of emotional empathy makes all the difference in the world. He really does NOT understand your feelings (or your children’s) and he cannot put himself in your shoes and see your perspective.
It is nice that he can take the kids skiing and that he is easy going, my MMRN was like that. He didn’t devalue the children (rare), that was part of his facade. Whiter than white. He was the good dad.
I don’t think you are malfunctioning because he would have disengaged so you are still proving fuel (negative: upset, confusion, sadness) and residual benefits (the appearance of a steady marriage with children, house keeping, etc.).
This is cognitive empathy (fake): At this point he “does concern” by reminding himself that he really should ask, etc… it’s not natural.
This is a quote from Connected Yet removed:
“I am there yet I am not. I am connected yet removed. This is how it feels, or rather, this is how it does not.”
Keep reading so you can increase your understanding and get your emotional thinking under control. Logic will get you through this.
HG Tudor
SEPTEMBER 28, 2018 AT 14:3
No, the only way to win the battle is not enter onto our battlefield.
K, your perspective and understanding are so helpful.
I wanted to say also that there was a golden period. I distinctly remember asking him after about 6 months why the light had dimmed and he seemed different. We still got on well enough after that though and I married him anyway like a runaway train. We are friends now in some ways, his good parts are genuinely nice. When I look back at some of my own narcissistic or confused behaviors I blame myself, but I also know that his lack of being able to be present and empathize exaggerated my shortcomings and I do believe that.
I’ve made some progress, I will keep going. Life is so strange. Thank you K.
My pleasure nunya biz!
To everyone but especially HG and K
I really cannot believe what I’ve just seen and equally, I’m also wondering if the below has been posted on narcsite.
I’m watching ‘The Windsors’ on UK Netflix at the moment. Really, really funny and very accurately observed. Then Season 2, Episode 3 rocks up.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6711892/
Kate is reluctant to join a pheasant shoot at Sandringham, Harry seeks revenge on Johnny and Wills stumbles across his father’s identical twin, Chuck.
‘Chuck’ confesses to being a Super Empath. I almost chocked on my drink! Aired 19th July 2017 in the UK on Channel 4. Almost as weird is that Pippa’s husband, James Matthews is portrayed as being self-aware. A Greater (although that word is not used) but ‘psychopath’ is.
Well worth a watch. Narcsite fave Sparkles is hilarious.
Yes I have seen the series, rather entertaining.
Funnily enough, Pippa’s husband isn’t a psychopath – he is an unaware Mid Ranger who thinks he is (witness his response to the duel with Harry).
I didnt know anything about him so was just googling him now. Thanks HG!
Pleasure.
It’s so bizarre! I might have been tempted to dismiss it as just a ‘glitch in the matrix’ but the ref. to narcassism by the James character really made me sit up.
And to go further, he has to portray himself as being aware because as you say HG, a MR is never aware. Thus linking Empathy and Narcissism together in a way that most writers of Narcissism fail to do as they don’t understand the importance of the Empathic schools.
There are also weird things in there. Not sure if it’s the same episode but there is one where a figure clearly portraying Rasputin is taking off a vest stuffed full of something extremely heavy and handing it to Camilla character I think? What’s in the vest, jewels? Gold? Payment for services or has he stolen something? Weird.
You do have MRs who think they are more than they are, so they think they are a Greater but do not recognise they are actually a MR narcissist and this is something they cannot ever accept.
Thanks for also answering a question that I have been meaning to ask for some time. Do MR’s ‘big’ themselves up? Yeah… Somewhere a penny has just dropped in my mind.
HG,
Just to clarify, and make sure I understood this exchange: Mid-Rangers can not realize that they are narcissists but *think* they are psychopaths?
If yes, is this in anyway related to the ‘reality gap’ that they can exhibit?
Thank-you.
Correct and yes it is.
HG
Thank you, I know I have said it many times yet your blunt truth here is what at times is needed.
Indeed.
HG,
Thank-you for confirming that. Making these connections helps me understand the mid-ranger and underscores that I never want to intimately entangle with one again. Ever. Even for narcs, mid-rangers are so messed up.
Oh just to further ask HG, could you percieve a scenario where the reverse is true? That a Greater masquerades as say, an Upper lesser for their own agendas?
Possible but highly unlikely.
Thanks H.G.
Interesting how I have embraced HG’s work and terminology (and I am sure I am not the only one here) to such a degree that is has become the benchmark against which I judge ALL narc-related and empath-related material.
You read that Super Emapths are the ones who are unable to differentiate between their own feelings and other people’s and you think: “No, sorry, you got it wrong. Those are called Contagion Empaths”.
HG approves.
EmP
One of the hardest things for a Contagion to learn is to identify their emotions from another. It was one of the hardest lessons I ever learned. I fear when I can not separate myself I feel like I am drowning, suffocating….
Twilight
I understand that drowning or suffocating feeling. When I am near an individual who has anxiety/fear, I can pick up on it and it can be overwhelming.
So a MR can think they are a greater narc but not a MR HG?
But they’re narcissism prevents them from recognising they’re a narc but they can think they’re a psychopath?
God my head hurts!
But this does explain the guy at my work who tells me of his nefarious ways yet lacks the charm etc it a greater and hardly has any friends.
So he is a narc. I had suspected he was a borderline.
Yes, I will be writing about this to expand on the topic.
Basically, the MR’s narcissism will not let him see that he is an MR, but he thinks he is some manipulative Svengali but he is not. Thus, it is a false representation of what he is.
This is an fascinating area due to the ramifications of what the import could be against a weaponised Empath who tumbles to it.
Yes. Much thinky thoughts required.
This makes no sense, and yet so much sense. Thank you HG.
I feel like I’m in wonderland!
I can definitely think of a couple more people I know who fit this category. I was previously unsure where to place them.
I shall sit patiently by my phone waiting for your article.
Ha ha cheeky.
I can be very cheeky HG!
Now then who else do I know who believes they’re the most nefarious of them all?
I wonder…is this person secretly a MR masquerading as a greater?
They do hate those victim Ns rather a lot.
Projection perhaps?
I’m learning aren’t I. Just call me Phil Taylor!!
Obviously I’m genuinely shitting myself right now and going to go and paint myself a rather dull grey looking colour!
Love you loads and loads and loads HG xxx
Ha ha, I can point you in the direction of a handful of very dull grey people if you like, they may have some spare paint for you!
Psst @Chihuahuamum Run! Its the Middles! They’re about to rock up with their C&A suits and sensible ties!
Super empaths, greater narcissists, midrangers …at the end of the day they share one thing in common and thats dysfunction. Even super empaths bc if they dont fully disengage and keep coming back into the narc relationship theyre no different than someone who stays longterm…
@Cihuahuamum
Bit shaking by head TBH at your comment on SE’s.
What makes a SE different to a E, CD or C?
SE’s are not Ns. We are still vulnerable to the same manipulations and power plays that others are. We still want to believe that this time is different. Just because an SE can affect N traits doesnt make us a N. Far from it.
The fact is that there is more than a hint if victim blaming, ‘no different than someone who stays longterm’ is a gross misrepresentation of whats actually happening in the relationship dynamic.
Yeah.
Hi renarde…you misinterpreted my comment completely there was no victim shaming at all. I was basically saying that at its core theres a reason why we stay and that even as a super empath if youre going back to the abuse you need to find what that reason is. As long as you stay in the dynamic youre no better than a codependant that never leaves as far as “escaping”.
Why i wrote this was bc i feel the super empath is placed on a pedestal of sorts but its all dysfunctional to stay in an abusive relationship.
Also there was no need for the snide comment. Maybe asking politely what i meant might be more productive just a thought.
Just as a side note, CM and Ren, I feel it is a fine line between victim blaming and taking responsibility. I feel like I have been walking that line somewhat. But carefully. Only because I’m trying to work on my own things, so it makes sense to me. I knew what you both meant.
Chihuahuamum
Now I’m really confused!
Firstly, no snide comment from me!
Secondly, your post was clear. I understood it, so no need for clarification required this end.
Thirdly, are you honestly saying that the phrase ‘You’re no better than’ is not an utterly emotionally loaded phrase?
It implies the following
1 SEs believe they are ‘better’ than others
2 If SEs and CDs stay in the relationship then the abuse is justified somehow? Please do reassure me thats nots what you mean?
The Seduction Hoover creates the trauma bond. The mix cements it. You can know irs wrong, ots toxic but by then youve bevome addicted. Are we not all in agreement that NC is really really tough to implememt correctly?
That being said, I passionately believe we need to own our stuff. Not acknowledging that Emps are also drawn to narcs and that we gave a duty of care is so important when it comes to healing.
Yeah so – this pedestal m’larky. If some choose to percieve my school in that way, thats up to them. I can assure you that at times its been a near intolerable burden to carry. I wouldnt wish this on my worst enemy!
Apologies for all those typos…on my phone.
Yes, post attachment love and bonding (in any capacity- familial, platonic, romantic) are a fact and having those used/manipulated is a source of traumatic anger (pain really).
Since I’m the Codependent I’ll go ahead and clear this up. I am absolutely responsible for some of the abuse I’ve received. CM is quite correct.
I am sorry if you are being abused and you continue to allow it that’s on YOU. The way out of this mess and codependency in general is owning YOUR part in it and yes YOU have a role in it and the Narc knew you play it perfectly which is why you were chosen. Except for minor children and other isolated circumstances you have free will. If you continue you to stick around because you’re “addicted” that’s still on you as it is with any addict.
I should know I am a diagnosed Codependent and not by the internet. I don’t play one on TV. I live with this condition and it’s effects on me everyday
CM your points are very valid and way to go for owning your shit. There is power and freedom in that. You are only a victim to a certain point then it’s up to you.
I’ll be harsh here but some of you are filling your heads with the Super Empath stuff to heal your bruised ego. Sorry that’s just likely reality
CM
I could be wrong but I think you are really starting to make some progress. I know you have not kicked him to the curb but I see you are beginning to notice more and more your role in this. It’s hard to look at and even harder to let go of because he’s filling a title hole in you that you are unable to fill yourself. I’m not a shrink but it would appear to me that in the last few months you have made progress
The struggle is real. That is why I make no guarantees and only say I won’t contact today. That’s all I can do is one day at a time. If I screw up than I’ve gotta pick myself up and start again
That is a really excellent observation about CM and progress, Lori.
“I am sorry if you are being abused and you continue to allow it that’s on YOU. The way out of this mess and codependency in general is owning YOUR part in it and yes YOU have a role in it and the Narc knew you play it perfectly which is why you were chosen. Except for minor children and other isolated circumstances you have free will. If you continue you to stick around because you’re “addicted” that’s still on you as it is with any addict.”
I think this can be true and can be false. Some of the women here have some amazing tools, such as:
HG
family support
self-esteem
intelligence
money
some sense of mental stability
some concept of how the world works
etc…
We can randomly remove and one, more or all of those tools and things get nuts.
But I get the sentiment for sure and I’m an advocate of viewing things that way for one’s self absolutely. To my mind it encourages power.
But really it’s not realistic to pit a MMR cerebral against an unsuspecting naive younger empath with less intelligence or life experience and expect them to know what’s going on. The MMR doesn’t even know. Plus some narcs are seriously scary, like cult leaders and stuff, there’s stories all over this blog.
Just to mention.
Nunya biz
Thank you. I have been here awhile so I’ve observed things about people here including myself. Narcs and Codependents are the are acutely keen observers. It’s how we survive. It’s not always conscious to us. We do it instinctively.
CM is becoming more and more aware of her part in this dynamic. While she isn’t out of it yet, I can see it’s becoming of less interest to her because she knows and accepts how this is gonna go. Now it’s just a matter of kicking her addiction and filling that hole
I tend to be a little harsh and cold at times. I’m very empathetic but I’m also very narcissistic. I know what I am. With Narcs you will find they either have people who love them or hate them. Codependents are often the same at least my flavor. You would have a vast majority say oh she is so outgoing and nice but there would be a few say they don’t see that at all. Couple that with the anonymity of the internet and I can come across as harsh but I firmly believe you don’t get out of this until you recognize your part or you will hook up with another one guaranteed. Even if you do own your part (and you are a codep) you will likely again because subconsciously a narcissist appeals to you
People who have firm healthy boundaries do not allow the level of abuse from a Narc unless they are a child or have some other rare circumstance. They don’t. We were chosen for a reason. It wasn’t because we are random nice person. Nope. They saw a weakness or need somewhere
Hi lori…ty for your comments. I can relate to codependancy. I am making huge headway but its so very gradual. This has been 9 yrs now so its been awhile. When i say headway its many contributing factors. First and foremost im leaps and bounds more educated and aware of npd and personality disorders than i was in the beginning. I look back years ago at the start of the relationship and the turmoil i felt and confusion. Not just in the relationship but also with my narc mother. It really is a pattern and many pick partners similiar in nature which is ironic but we do.
Next is the reality of npd and it sinking in which is the gradual part. Being sucked in and hurt many times over. The more cycles of abuse the more you start to wake up or at least thats been my situation.
Once you realise the fact a narcissist cant love you and its mostly a facade you start to fall out of love with them or at least the romantic love. Your attraction to them fades as well bc you lose respect and you see them for what they are.
I wouldnt say my relationship is terribly abusive but he is very covert in his abuse. A lot of it ive addressed but of course it keeps evolving and never fully goes away.
I think for myself the codependancy will fully be dealt with when i make that choice to be able to no longer worry about losing him in my life. Of course i know that the only way for that is thru exposure and actually doing it.
Tbh im not sure i want to fully cut him out of my life bc i do care about him and love him but im not in love with him. That disappeared a few years ago and it was based on a facade and infatuation. I do enjoy a lot about him which makes the npd that much more complex. You can enjoy parts of a personality and really hate other parts.
I do feel im focusing more on me and what makes me happy and its freeing knowing i dont have to depend on another for that. Ive found my passion in life and am focusing on that to take me in a different direction.
I don’t find you harsh, Lori, I enjoy your posts. Direct maybe, but I was just telling that to MP how I trust people when then are like that usually. I mean here on the blog we enjoy HG because he’s not being duplicitous and it lets us relax a little.
Correct.
“People who have firm healthy boundaries do not allow the level of abuse from a Narc unless they are a child or have some other rare circumstance. They don’t. We were chosen for a reason. It wasn’t because we are random nice person. Nope. They saw a weakness or need somewhere”
It is disturbing.
I’ve had multiple N relationships, some of them platonic, where it didn’t seem so predatory also though. It just is born of extreme self-centerdness that they aren’t even aware of and descends into a long slow process of being objectified into being taken advantage of. I sometimes think their unawareness gives them advantage, especially in picking up an empath’s tendency to detect something broken and feel compassion, patience, etc… Like I can see the person doesn’t know.
That’s the sort of every day interaction I’m trying to avoid simply because I have identified it as a previously invisible drain on my life, time and energy. It still hurts and still makes me angry. If I had known some things it would never have happened. Any early superiority play (“I know x, and you don’t”) or other maneuvers like acting sympathetic and generous and rescinding it (because they forgot why they “cared”) and I am out. So fast. Mistakes, distractions, brief moments of selfishness aside, of course.
I have had a few of those platonic ones go along just slowly descending and finally devolve into an end state where the person seems to nearly delight in little jabs at me, which is confusing because in line with the topic of victim blaming versus personal responsibility, one of my deep frustrations is that I genuinely believe that it takes great confidence to be kind and I am strong in that way and I will cut something off entirely which won’t feel good.
Renarde
I will start watching it tonight and I have noticed the term Super Empath being used more lately.
K, me too! Even the term Supernova. I even saw a lady on Youtube calling herself as a Supernova. It seems like a common confusion about the Supernova being a person and not an event.
mommypino
I agree, there is a lot of confusion on the net and I am not surprised that someone is calling herself a Supernova on YouTube. I am going to stick with Narcsite because it has the best information regarding NPD. Nothing else comes close.
Fucking A!
Ha ha ha…thanks for the laugh HG!
Hi K
Brilliant! I must admit, I’ve havn’t yet heard anyone use the term SE which is why it jarred. BTW, the term ‘Supernova’ is also used and I think in that episode. I’d check myself but am having data issues.
I agree K, this is the best place to get information on narcissism. Although from time to time I like to look at YouTube videos of survivors who are now healed and are sharing what they have learned. It was fun to see how empowered and confident she looked like as a survivor. And with her using the word Supernova, it’s obvious that HG has a lot to contribute with her healing. It’s fun to see happy endings. 😊
Twilight,
Not sure if anyone, given the chance, would have chosen to be a Contagion Empath.
I find it to be a very fascinating subject however. I read of a guy who, listening to a friend’s sharing his problems, got an actual anxiety attack. It must be scary..
I wonder if there’s any way to *control it* to some extent or the only option you have is to get away, be by yourself, etc.
I have strands of contagion, in fact its the first aspect of my empathy that I really understood as empathy.
I do know when im feeling an emotion which isnt my own and I just ride it out. Or I can shut it down completely depending on the circumstance.
You see, I ended up on this path because im a Priestess. Ive been trained how to do it. Spent years training. I then started to learn properly.
Ive met many, many Ns over the years. Only a few can consciously manipulate the energy themselves.
Renarde
It is emotional contingency strain not Contagion.
I do agree few of HGs kind can actually manipulate energy themselves.
Emotional contingency strain? Yes, you could be right there. I wouldn’t describe myself as a Contagion Empath.
Have you experienced consious energy manipulation?
Renarde
Depends on what your definition of conscience energy manipulation is.
I am correct with emotional contagency only a contagion is truly “infected” by others. You need cues I don’t, you can be selective in whom you feel empathy for, I can not. Now I do chose whom I will show compassion and/or sympathy for.
Ohh…very interesting aspects of empathy under discussion. Like it.
Conscious energy mannipulation, to be clear, is when a person manipulates energy by non verbal or physical means. That’s my definition.
Its not the usual route that Ns will take. For obvious reasons. Ns sense energy, fuel. So do Es. I’m curious that you feel I need cues, I do not. I can sense energy and when its either being pulled or pushed towards me.
As to being empathic for others? I’m a bit head scratching at this? I can feel both cognitive and affective empathy for people who I know cannot percieve what affective empathy is.
I do have a choice however, about what I open my mouth and say in Sphere 1.
I welcome the dialogue but I also feel you’re making assumptions about me.
Renarde
Can you feel this energy from another in the room, another building, miles away or oceans away?
Twilight
What is “emotional contingency?”
Windstorm
Emotional contagency let’s say you have one baby in a nursery full of babies start to cry, then another then another that is emotional contagency in action and one can “see” the energy moving from baby to baby through the connection.
A mother with a child….the mother is deathly afraid of spiders the child has never felt nor feels fear of a spider. The child witnesses the mothers actions and sees her fear, the child has now has a layer of fear placed unpin their subconscious and will react in the same manner when seeing a spider.
One example is audio cues the other is audio and visual cues. As we grow we pick up subtle cue which then triggers our “emotions” and then we “feel “ what another is feeling.
We learn what different emotions look like and in turn process them into what we believe they feel like. Why everyone perspective and how they feel can be different yet so similar.
Why empathetic/empathic people behave is a specific manner to which makes them a form of Empath.
Look at those who love Trump and those who don’t, in each group specific emotions are triggered by what the person perceive as likable or not so likeable. Watch a crowd that doesn’t like him, the energy that is anger runs through a crowd.
Emotional contagency is what connects us.
Twilight
So were you all talking about “emotional contagency” or “emotional contingency?” Or are they the same? Your explanation sounds a lot like how we are that makes us contagions.
Your example of the crowd reminded me of my father. He was a very good orator. He could look at any group of people, size them up and know just what to say to sway them emotionally and fire them up. Like mob psychology. He always understood both sides of any argument and was very articulate, but the more people he was talking to, the more power he had to get them to do what he wanted. His vocabulary, his presentation, his arguments totally changed depending on who was in the group. It was spooky to watch.
Windstorm
Emotional Contingency not Contagency I spelt it wrong.
I drove HG crazy I think for a time I kept saying Contingon and not Contagion. It is something I still work on that happened after my accident, certain words I have to slow down and think about what I am saying before I say ithem or spell them.
A contagion can do the same as your father the difference is to a Contagion it is exhausting vs invigorating to the narcissist.
I have and will take control of people when it is needed.
I have always seen both sides.
I think you mean Emotional Contagion, Twilight – not contingency (which is a future event which cannot be predicted with certainty) or contagionancy (which isn’t a word!)
And that is why I love you HG. You keep me on track here.
Back to my patients…..
Why, thank you Twilight.
Thanks, Twilight.
I will calm people down when they’re upset or angry and soothe, but I would never try to control anyone. I watched Daddy do that many, many times and concluded it was wrong. I have never felt I had the right to try to control anyone other than myself.
That is in no way meant as a criticism of you, if you believe differently. That is just my own philosophy based on the “golden rule”. I don’t want anyone trying to control me, so I need to not try to control anyone else.
Windstorm
I do not control people in that sense. If the situation deems it I will take control.
It is exhausting to do such.
The times I have done this I retreated quickly to solitude.
Intentions is what makes the difference
Windstorm and Twilight
Perhaps its the word control here that is at issue? Although I agree strongly that no one should be controlled and resist it myself, I remember when I was younger there was such chaos and absence of consistency that I actually related that to lack of “control” and felt I had to step up to provide some (to cope myself and provide some order for the younger ones). I don’t feel that way now and leave them to their own decisions, but because of their experience with me (and especially with regard to issues that involved StepN when he was alive) they still identify me as in that role of “controller” and it is expected that if there is an issue it is left to me to ”normalize” it. At Christmas there was an issue and I told them you are all adults – sort it out and do what you think you should do. I was then asked: don’t you care anymore? Lol can’t win.
I know without a doubt im a contagion empath based on the description. I find for myself different situations affect me moreso than others. There have been some situations that ive found myself consumed with despite the fact of it being a complete stranger. I feel myself placed in their shoes and feeling second hand what they must be going thru. Its very hard to explain fully but its not your typical empathy where you empathize then move on. Id almost compare it to that of a medium in the supernatural sense. You feel yourself become one with that person. You over empathise and it can affect your mood and thinking. You become consumed and for myself overinterested in that person or whats going on in their life.
Imo i dont think its a healthy form of empathy and can be on the extreme side.
Ive had to try to disengage and be ok with with just feeling empathy and realising i have no control over others grief or pain etc.
Its ironic bc in other areas of my life ive compartmentalised and become numb towards others.
Chihuahuamum
I agree that contagion empathy is probably not a healthy thing. It’s at the center of my extreme social anxiety and is a constant burden. I can only disassociate with other people’s emotions if I am not physically present and even then they may still haunt me.
What is also very annoying is that it doesn’t even matter that the emotions are not real. I have been enjoying watching old Boston Legal episodes lately, but yesterday in an episode, secondary characters being hurtful to each other disturbed me. It put me off watching any more of the series. And this is a totally made up comedic series!
Windstorm
Boston Legal was well worth my watching (I don’t watch much tv) Comedy with intelligent and timely (as possible) debatable topics and discussion all in one. Doesn’t get any better for me. Seriously, a way to be entertained while experimenting with/entertaining the various viewpoints of others.
NarcAngel
Truly! I enjoyed Boston Legal when it was first on – when I could catch it – never had cable or satellite, only broadcast tv. I recently bought the entire series on dvd and will really be bummed out if it disturbs me too much to watch them all!
I absolutely love Shatner’s character, Denny Crane and his relationship with Alan. Narcissism at its most entertaining!
Windstorm
Agreed. Boston Legal is great in demonstrating some of the ways narcissists can greatly benefit society and how you can have fun with them, as opposed to how they are generally viewed (especially in intimate relationships).
NarcAngel
Very true. Narcissists do a lot of good in the world and they can be a lot of fun to hang out with. You just have to stay out of intimate relationships and not try to live in the same house with them!
Hope you see this Twilight, WordPress up to it’s old tricks.
No, I cannot sense energy outside of sphere 2. So across a room sometimes but no more than that. Usually need to be in touching distance.
Renarde
Thank you. That is why I stated you need cues. Usually when I say you I am speaking in general terms.
I do not need to be in the same room, the more familiar I am with another’s energy the farther I can sense them and what they are feeling.
No worrires but I think I’m not expressing myself well. I can sense energy. On rare occasions, once, I saw it. It was one of the strangest things I ever saw
Renarde
Any Empath can learn to enhance their sensitivity and have glimpse of this energy. They just will never be on the same level as a Contagion.
I was born with this ability and have honed my abilities over a lifetime.
Cool!
I’ve been pondering on contagion quite a bit recently and I’m coming to the conclusion that it may well be a trait all humans have. Some will be more developed or it might be entirely dormant in others. I think its there though.
Twilight
That’s me, too. I can often sense energy from family and close friends who aren’t present. Just this morning I started thinking out of the blue how much I wished I could FaceTime my daughter’s children, but I am at school today. I texted her to check on them and she said that my 4 yr old grandson was walking around with a toy pig I’d given him a couple years ago and had just asked her if they could FaceTime Grand-maman. Maybe coincidence, but things like that happen fairly frequently.
How much distance between us is irrelevant. There are also several people that I can fairly reliably get to call or text me by focusing my thoughts on them. Pretzel is one.
EmP
That guy needs to learn ASAP how to shield. Its really straightforward. If he carries on being so open he’ll burn himself out. Not pleasent. Been there, done that.
But…is it possible to ‘shield onself’?
How would you do it?
According to the article I was referring to, the poor guy would even vomit at times, that’s how upset he would get.
I do feel for him, it must be an absolute nightmare to be that sensitive.
Two things, grounding and centering brings focus and ‘earthing’ and therfore clarity. You then place yourself inside a bubble.
You can, if you wish, extend the bubble around others.
That guy sounds unusually sensitive. I agree, poor guy.
Replying to a lower comment:
EmP,
Yes, it’s extremely exhausting to be that sensitive.
It’s like all my buttons are “on”, all the lights turned on in the house, the windows all open, music cranked, appliances running!
Every outside stimulus has an effect on my body, in my mind, totality. Anything, everything…. and depending various circumstances, I’ll react differently. So I have to be prepared for everything. And anything.
I did find that as I get older, I need more time to decompress. Away time. Me time 🌼💞
Hi renarde.. .not sure if i misread but theres a reality show the windsors?
No, it is a satire based on the royal family in the UK.
No its not reality Chihuahuam its satire.
What is satire? I am not familiar with that genre
Intelligent mocking.
NarcAngel
Your step dad…ahh I dont even know what to say. I am so angry at him for putting you and your siblings in such horrible conditions.Waste of skin, drain on society, bottom feeder. I’m so sorry , I am sure u realize that little girl NA deserved so much better than that. But , you are so strong and have been such a supportive influence to so many people here. Your perspective is always on point. And through all of that, you remained such a decent and good person. He didn’t turn you bitter and nasty. He couldnt break you, and He didnt deserve to know you.
I know this is an extremely unpopular opinion but I still have pity for narcs! I know it’s the last thing they want but I can’t help it! They ARE wounded. Is there absolutely no way to heal them?
HG, is the treatment you are receiving helping you in any way? How can we not pity a person who is unable to love? What kind of life is that?
It helps me in different ways.
On supernova events, I have no doubt that I had one when I first found out about narcissism. It lasts longer than a moment and mine went into the next day at least. I was very narcissistic with him only and dished out to him the same stuff he’d said to me that I had learned from him over all the years. I did it with his same curled smile, and he stayed quiet. And it didn’t stop there, it continued on in a text, into seeing him the next day. I gave it all right back to him, with the armor of my new knowledge. What stopped it was when I realized I had really hurt him, and I was afraid I’d gone too far. My empathy came back. Then our relationship was changed. He was being nice to me, just as HG writes, to keep me from telling others about him and to keep me from leaving. I NC’d him at the office as best as I could, and I believe he took offense to that. But I needed that time like a period of adjustment, for the whole thing to sink in. Now I’m at the point where I can talk to him – quickly and pleasantly- staying as NC as possible still. Just like any bad habit, it’s too easy to get hooked again even when you know it’s bad for you and you really don’t want it. I’m extremely mindful of what he is whenever I’m around him, and I stop my mind from going there anymore.
HG, if you’re going to pigeonhole us, we would appreciate prettier labels. Can we do a poll vote on some replacements?
Not happening, Kel. I’m the Governor in these here parts.
kel
Nice try. You get an A for effort.
We are empaths because we have a higher sense of the aura around us, we can read you through your eyes, we can get a sense of who you are. A narcissist is a red flag, something’s off, and we must find out what. I can tell you what a narcissist’s aura feels like after you know what they are. They make me feel like I’ve been poisoned, it zaps my energy and I’m very tired, it feels like I want to wash it off and go through decontamination. I felt a terrible malice back when I first met him, something very dark and evil, and I wondered what I was getting myself into. But then he changed his composure that second, and the sensation was gone. Their constant contradiction is always there of their real self and their facade. I always said he’s good and bad at the same time, now I know why.
I had a contact on FB who was arrested by police and put in a mental hospital. I did not know the guy well. But I felt the police were wrong and he was being abused. I was the only one that gave him a place to stay once he got out, visited him in the hospital, called him daily. I could nbot believe that nobody else was doing anything! Not his parents, not his best friend! It was like WTF why don;t people help out??!
This article clearly explains why. Not everyone is a super empath and will do something when they see problems.
I do need however to be careful because I can take too much action for causes that are not my fight.
Thank you HG. great contextualization. I uidnersdtand myself much better
Amanda Snapchat, your comment just scared the shit out of me. If you were my daughter you’d be in so much trouble. I understand your need to help but please please be safe. I don’t know where you are from but in the us it takes a lot of effort to commit someone to a mental hospital. There are families begging mental facilities to take there children in before they hurt themselves or others. Unfortunately they are being turned away.
Your kindness is commendable but don’t put yourself at risk by letting a stranger into your home.
Yeah, my and my family’s safety comes before everyone else. No way am I getting involved with shit I didn’t cook up and am not responsible for tidying up. I’ll gladly offer to carry an old lady’s groceries or help a drunk stranger safely cross the street, but it stops here. No way am I letting anyone questionable actually near me.
Also, being rejected by the whole family and all their friends is a huuuge red flag. They could just be extremely unlucky, but more likely the family and friends have very good reasons for dropping them.
Morning Sun, I get what you’re saying. I know an empath that just can’t help but take in people she feels bad for so I understand that some feel this need to help. Unfortunately my friend has gotten herself into trouble a few times doing this and is currently in a very abusive relationship as a result of “saving” someone that turned out to be shady. She has called the police so many times that they now refuse to come out because she won’t press charges and she keeps letting him back in. It’s a very sad situation.
Not limited to Empaths. Lesser than Lesser StepNarc did this for his facade. Would drag home anyone for a meal or to live with us for a period of time to look like a hero. Of course he didnt fear anything happening to him but he also didn’t consider that it could put us in danger, so on top of his abuse we were side stepping other cretins in our own home. We had police come to our house middle of the night looking for (and found) an underage girl with a “guest”, I woke up with a naked man on the spare bed in my room (fascinating to me so I didn’t wake him), and there were “fondlers” amongst the guests as well. Fuck me, he was a complete waste of skin.
NarcAngel, I hate StepNarc. You’re right, absolute waste of skin. I imagine as an adult you’d kick some fondling ass!
I’ve seen similar stuff, absolutely, NA.
NarcAngel,
I’m so sorry that your father would put you in danger like that, and hope that nothing happened to you from it. Putting a naked man, much less a vagrant, into a young girls room is unbelievable. My heart goes out to you.
Thanks Kel. I’m ok. I have actually looked back on the naked man as a humorous incident and introduction to anatomy. He was a ginger and I was fascinated with his pubic hair so I studied him for some time before I went to get someone lol. He actually wandered drunk into the wrong room…but still. It got me thinking though about SN’s complete lack of discretion in who he brought into our lives if it was of benefit to him. There were many, and to be fair, there were some goods ones, but of course those never stuck around long. I prefer to focus on the positive in those experiences and being exposed to all kinds of colorful characters as preparing me for the real world. Not much surprises me.
NA, “colorful characters”. I see what you did there. (With the ginger😉)
MB
Haha, that wasn’t intentional but nice catch!
NarcAngel
WTactualF.
If your StepN wasn’t already dead, he’d be feeling my blade.
NA, that was absolutely horrible that your SN had very little if any care about what could have happened to you. I would never put any woman especially a young woman in that risk that he had put you in. So many bad things could have happened. So thankful that nothing bad happened to you and you still saw the humorous side of the experience. If I was there I would beat the crap out of your SN for being such a useless pos.
mommypino
I agree and I can’t even articulate my thoughts about it.
HG, you as a narcissist love to manipulate people – it gives you fuel. Romantically you target empaths of course. But I wonder, do you like manipulating other narcissists for fun? Which the most? Lessers? Mida-rangers? Do you find it entertaing to push other narcissits buttons? What do you like in manipulating different schools of N? Watching the M-R goes away sulking? Or laughing at heated fury of lesser?
I do. I both responses entertaining.
The Super Nova could be the Narcissist worse nightmare. In the beginning the Narc. will feel he or she hit the jack pot. BUT because there is never any contentment of a settled soul of a Narc. because they really do not have one, they get restless. The Super Nova has a very pure gift of once they connect, they give of all of their selves of being so raw and real in giving. This is a gift. A very very sacred gift. Because the Narc. is so good at deception, the Super Nova thinks they found the one. So they are very vulnerable of giving and showing the Narc. the trust they have for them. We are warriors who have been broken many times, but some how wear are scares with honor. We don’t show them to many. So once we find out the true nature of the one we give our goodness and heart too, and they turned out to be evil. WE are a mess at first, but then we pick ourselves up and do the work we must do to fight them. Warn others, expose them, maybe go to court so on. BUT we have to be ready for battle. Narcs do NOT change. They will always need fuel. What I did was mess with his fuel supply with some of the other women I found that he did this too. I found true evil, as Narc. are NOT from God. They come from the shadows of evil.
In reading comments, I think a super empath is someone with a strong moral conviction and a sense of truth that is unshakable. Once the truth has been discovered about narcissism, it gives them more power and understanding of the narcissist. They can see him doing his manipulating, his wheels rolling, and the thoughts processing in his head, they know the scheme and the malice in the curl of his smile. They are no longer victims at that point, they know not to interfere with his seductions of others, or to give him fuel anymore. Their beliefs in truth and rightness is stronger than anything else, and now they see narcissists as weak as they really are. Lesser and mids are less likely to tangle with a super as HG has said. Supers are strong, that’s why they give negative fuel and for so long, until they learn the truth, which they must in order to break free.
Thank you for the reminder about myself as a super empath in relation to ‘my’ narcissist. He’s emailed and texted 3 times in the last 2 days ‘out of the blue’. Baloney texts. Cute emojis, happy holidays and the last one sharing his current location. Trying to suck me back in. You’re right the super empath is absolutely magnetized by the apparent boldness and confidence (audacity!) of the mid-greater narcissist. We like the power and fun. But it’s very bad for us. Thanks for reminding me of my stature and to stay away.
HG
I love this article.
Your insights are wonderful and have pinpoint accuracy.
I would like to read more.
I enjoyed reading “Chained”, I could discuss that with you all day, but I’ll do that another time.
Reading ‘The Super Empath’ today, the last paragraph has reminded me of a previous brief discussion we had with Clarece on another thread. It was about the Law of Diminishing Returns and it’s interplay on the part of the empath within the Narcissist/Empath dynamic.
“…the super empath becoming aware…..unwilling to dedicate further energy to the Narcissist…”
It’s that crucial tipping point for the empath.
She or he weighs up the cost:benefit ratio, and acts accordingly.
It’s very satisfying to read how you have described it. It gives much food for thought, and that is my preferred reading material.
Thank you!
It always amazes me how many think themselves a super empath or want to be that. I have to ask myself why this title is so desirable and i think its a victim shame situation where no one likes to be thought of as weak or enduring abuse. If you keep going back even intermittently than youre just as weak as someone who doesnt break free you still are codependant on the narcissist.
If you decide to play games with the narcissist out of revenge you are just as weak as someone who puts up with their nonesense. You are continuing to engage with the abuse.
Super empath…someone who knows and who goes…permanently anything else is codependancy.
It’s amusing. So let’s see on a Narcissistic abuse blog almost all of the readers are Super Empaths ? I’m yeah no. I have many of fhose qualities but I am a codependent while I sing know, I think mental health professionals would likely find miser super empaths are just another flavor of codependent
Chihuahuamum, there are many that are aware and go but spend years trying to move on and can’t get their ex N out of their head. Do you consider them co-dependant as well? I ask this because many that stay that are aware (I include myself) are trying to work through what they are dealing with just like the ones that escape.
Chihuahuamum, I had another thought. When I was reading about the super empath this time I didn’t see this title as superior to other empaths. I agree that fighting back (when aware) is just as damaging as a co-dep enduring the abuse. I also wonder if this site attracts more of the super empaths. Maybe the percentage of the readers here is higher because of the knowledge we have. Those of us that are here learning are in some way fighting back.
Mercy
I am definitely NOT a super empath. I obviously do not meet the qualifications. But I do have a theory of why so many of us believe that we are one. I think it is purely because of the word “super” that HG used when he invented the term.
People in general want to think well of themselves. Victims or people who have been abused and used by others are particularly in need of raising their own self-concept. Who among us would not like to think of themselves as “super,” as being powerful? Super things are on a whole – good things. We all want to think of ourselves as good.
Contrast that to Standard Empath. Why would anyone want to be a “standard” when they could be “super?” As in my own case, I’m a Contagion. That just sounds horrible any way you consider it. Makes us sound like we’re either a disease others should fear or we’re afflicted with one. I sure wouldn’t choose to be called a “contagion”, if I could choose differently. But I so obviously and irrevocably fit in the contagion category, I have no choice but to accept it. But I sure do wish it had a cooler, more attractive name.
Windstorm, a cooler name is not going to happen. I tried and the boss shot me down. I agree with you on the “super” point you made. I have found that after reading more I focused more on the traits rather than the titles. I think it’s possible to have some traits of all of these categories. I see co-dep as someone that stays in a situation because they are getting something out of it as well even if that something is harmful. I can identify with that somewhat. On the other hand I don’t feel that I can be beat down to the point that I can’t function. I’ll admit that these last few months I was at my lowest but as a result I finally let go. I saw that my need was no longer being fulfilled. As far as super empath, I can relate to being attracted to the strength (illusion) of the narcissist. When he would push I pushed back and I did have boundries that I wouldn’t let him cross. When I realized his strength was a mask the attraction was no longer there for me. Also we spoke of contagion before and I told you of 2 experiences I had that would fit in that category. So with all of that I think I’m pretty standard haha.
Windstorm
When I first heard the term Contagion Empath I assumed that to mean that their empathy was contagious so did not think of it as a bad thing. It will be interesting to read HG’s view on how it fits into the dynamic when that article/book is released.
NarcAngel
I’m looking forward to an article on contagions, too. So far we’ve just had about two paragraphs!
WS, I am somehow trying to describe this too, the “brain filter” factor, but I don’t think I’m doing it right.
I think the word “super” plays a role, but I also think it is because the category reflects some of the anger and arguing that people feel about injustice.
I also think my comments come out in the wrong place again.
Nunya biz
If your comments come out in the wrong place it’s probably the WordPress goblins. Since I like to read every comment on every article that’s especially frustrating when they don’t come thru at all. But again, if that’s the worst thing that happens to me today, then I had a blessed day!
I hadnt thought much of the anger angle on super empaths. That’s one of the things that made me realize I couldn’t be one. It never occurred to me that many people would identify with that. That’s a benefit of hearing other people’s ideas, it can show a different perspective that I hadn’t considered. 😊
Super Empath thoughts…I don’t think you have to be a super empath to fight back. When I’ve had enough, I can lay down the effing law with a vengeance that surprises even me! Those that have witnessed it are dumbfounded as it is completely out of character. I always feel like a worm afterwards and apologize profusely. I don’t consider myself a super empath or those Supernova events. They are just me railing against injustices before I can stop myself.
MB
I totally agree! Everyone of us will fight back if pushed hard enough. I’ve wondered that, too. If some people think they are a super empath because they reached their limit and fought back.
WS, I don’t think every melt down is a Supernova event. Yes, I think that does cause some to believe they are SE’s. It can be confusing.
Correct.
Nunya Biz, we all deal with pain in different ways. For me the anger and hate I feel is a mask for the pain I feel. We all feel the same pain we just show it in different ways.
Hi mercy…ty for your reply. I think anyone who cant let go is codependant and needs to look deep within and learn why they cant let go of the narcissist whether its someone who has stayed or someone who left but is still struggling.
I do think many think the super empath title is like a super hero of empaths. I also think bc HG has mentioned greaters prefer super empaths this has made the classification desirable but theres nothing desirable about being abused whether the abuse is from a lesser or a greater its painful and toxic.
The super empath to a narc is a super fuel source nothing else. None of us victims are special to narcissists aside from what they can get from us.
Chi, you have given me alot to think about with your comments. At first I wanted to reject the fact that we are all Co-dependant in some way but I did alot of reading the last few days
I see Co-Dep the same as you. Not being able to let go as the key factor whether you are in the relationship or have escaped. I think those of us who have been to therapy for this reason would be surprised that Co-dependant is probably written somewhere in our chart as a diagnosis.
I think the confusion comes from the fact that mental health professionals do not accept (at this point) “empath” as a diagnosis. HG has gone even further and broke empaths into 4 categories or schools (none being superior to the other). Many of us have characteristics that fit into all 4 of these schools but 1 being the dominant.
I identify with the super above the other schools because of the explanation HG has provided not because of the name or the fact that greaters are attracted to the super (I actually didn’t know that fact until you pointed it out). I do feel like I have co-dep traits as well. I have let go of BS but I have not let go of the abuse which continues to tie me to him.
Thanks for helping me sort this out. I have started a journal to help me separate schools and cadres. I like the way HG has explained the difference even though the medical field is not on board yet. It’s all very confusing but the more I read the more I learn about myself.
You would not be surprised that codtp is written on your chart. They would tell you and your therapy starts taking that direction. You aren’t there to really talk about the narc. Once you have been a few times and it’s been determined and explained to you that you were with a narcissist and what that it is they don’t let you talk about his problems so much. Mine said we aren’t talking about him anymore because we know exactly what he is. We are here to talk about you and why this happened at least that’s how both the therapist and the shrink were
You will not have a diagnosis and not be told about it. Believe me if you are codependent, you will be told
Lori, I disagree. I don’t think that is always the case. Many therapist will diagnose (because that is their job) but not share the diagnosis unless asked.
In my case the label does not matter to me because it changes nothing. My therapist was very good. She understand this about me and instead of giving me a label (which she knew I would obsess about) she directed the therapy where it needed to go.
I don’t know if you’ve ever tried EMDR but this is one avenue my therapist took with me. I won’t say it cured me but it definitely opened up my mind to things I never thought about before. At some point I will go back and finish.
CM, here’s my long opinion, I hope you don’t mind, it’s only my take.
I don’t read anything in it as “better”, just as another grouping of traits. I don’t even read “greater narcissist” as better than “lesser narcissist”, though HG may disagree, that is because he is a narcissist and of course he defines the categories. I see labels as of very limited use to begin with, but are useful in a way.
I relate to the traits of *all* of the categories HG has described, so I really couldn’t say about myself, but I do think there is some discussion in the article that explains some behavior that is relate-able. It communicates the argument that happens between right and wrong that some people get tangled into and that can very much INCREASE the painful enmeshment acutely for a time, into crescendo of difficulty, rather than making the better decision to simply sever a bond.
The other thing that I would say is that I didn’t read any supernova event leanings as something where the person “knows” per se. It seems to me it is that the empath sees something very wrong, doesn’t fully understand what is happening, and becomes hell-bent on correcting the miscommunication, the misinterpretation, the injustice….
because they still inherently see some positive or good in the narcissist and believe it possible-
it says “fix”. That interaction I have participated in and I fully agree, I see it as a codependent thought process. It is hard to recognize until one studies codependency.
I think it is unconscious, not known, and then even if it becomes “known” so to speak, those behaviors and reactions are somewhat engrained so that it takes some effort to alter behavior patterns, it seems to me that is understood- that changing ones codependent patterns is an effort and sometimes nearly impossible.
Anyway, I relate to some of the ideas, but I don’t think I especially attract greaters, etc, so some ideas I don’t. It also makes no difference to me, the categories I look at as a curiosity and I think that understanding any personality categories from different philosophies can be helpful in self-reflection but only as a limited tool, it can be easy to bogged down in semantics and definitions, life rarely fits neatly, imo. As far as “better”, in some sense I would see a codependent as stronger if they are less inclined to argue, it’s something I’ve struggled with, because as you are alluding to- why stay if you think something’s wrong and are going to argue? And I think arguing is damaging to one’s self.
In my case I once spent a year arguing something that was very upsetting to me, I simply could not fathom it, and I was certain that being my honest self could convince anyone in the world that yes, I am flawed, but I am good. It is extraordinarily painful to face what a narcissist is and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone, not anyone, and I don’t think the article talks about a specific type of person getting a free pass from pain. There is no statement in the explanation that says a super empath is not used to fighting the bad behavior of a messed up parent and that their heart doesn’t get wrenched into pieces. My experience was very scarring and now I have some insight, whether it is from this article or other ones.
It says “more likely to make a bid for escape and leave the narcissist with a cessation problem.”
What a cold ass, logical way of describing a hellish experience from the point of view of a disordered individual.
If it helps anyone understand how to leave easier, I’m for it, but most people come here after they’ve already been head-fucked. Maybe some people never got tangled into this particular dynamic, but a worse one, and will somehow avoid this one next time (NO NEXT TIME).
Just traits, I’d see a super empath (whomever that may be) as less likely to be a long term stepford wife, but that doesn’t necessarily look better either. It’s just another product of a collection of traits, such as taking longer to numb and more likely to escape.
What a person should WANT to do is to disengage, not get involved, detach.
It’s an interesting topic:
The Super Empath
and the supernova.
For myself, I have some of the described traits but I have never seen any reason to go into supernova mode. I am not one to scream or yell however. I mostly work off my anger privately, so I can confront calmly.
In all of my N-relationships, it has been clear at some point that I’m not listened to or respected, and so once the tipping point comes, where the N triggers their own devaluation by the Law of Diminishing Returns, I just close down and leave.
With the female N-friends I had, those relationships ended with heated arguments and stand off, and me just saying goodbye later via a calmly written letter.
I don’t have any N-friends now.
The ex-Ns were all tall and strong, and could easily pick me up, so when it became clear that I wasn’t being heard or respected by them, I wasn’t going to do anything that might provoke physical harm. I closed down and left, every time. None of my romantic relationships with Ns have lasted more than a year.
Perhaps having a Lesser N-mother and Lesser N-grandfather taught me to close down for protection. I hated screaming and unbridled rage being exhibited in my presence, or directed at me.
There was never any point trying to out-scream or out-argue anyone. In my Mum’s family, the one who shouted down the others and verbally trampled the others won, and I despised it.
With regard to a supernova, I have never been married, so maybe that situation would provide opportunities for a supernova? I can’t imagine under what conditions it would play out and be effective.
Even with the Greater ex-N who became so over the top malicious when I ended things, I wouldn’t engage with him. I’d hang up. It was too terrifying. So no supernova there either.
Perhaps my experience with the psychiatrically disturbed in an inpatient acute setting has contributed to me closing down and not reacting when I’m threatened, or when someone is acting bizarrely.
Perhaps it’s just my personality.
If you’re not respected or listened to, then priorities surely become
#1 maintaining safety,
#2 maintaining dignity, and
#3 maintaining self control/calm.
Well I envy your clam, Caroline. Most places I am extremely pleasant and I enjoy it. One of my motivations here us reducing exposure to Ns as much as possible, females as well, to relieve the feeling of pressure I experience.
As far as family, I do remember attempting to punch my mother once when she tried to hit me.
Very graceful descriptions, I am teaching myself to disengage, it is really helpful, I need to understand better to do it consistently. And simultaneously to be less patient, not more. It is interesting. I get most angry when I feel stuck or hurt.
I don’t think there’s winning with an N unless you leave. I think you are right, not respected or listened to is the cue.
Btw, experience with psychiatric inpatient sounds absolutely fascinating.
I love your 1, 2, 3 suggestions.
Nunya Biz
Did you mean you envy Carolines’s calm? Because if we’re judging clams I would have spruced mine up a bit with some notice. Just sayin.
I saw the clam comment too NA. You made me laugh out loud for real!
NA, ha! Clam contest!
Great thoughts on supers on here.
Yes, ws, the goblins, I’m not complaining, hg is an excellent mod/boss and I am appreciative.
Fwiw my temper developed later to some extent and I mostly don’t have or express it. I agree, for me it is 100% pain coping.
With regard to Codeoendency, I am one of the few if not only diagnosed Codepebdents on here , so I feel somewhat qualified to weigh in on this. As I have stated before, not all Codependents look the same. The same way Narcs don’t. I didn’t even suspect narc 2 was a narc because he was so different from Narc 1. Codependents come in flavors like Narcs do and it’s also dependent upon the relational dynamic. Codependency tends to come out more with certain relationships more than others. A codependent may be the doormat in on relationship and the controller in another. I can have a very strong dominant personality or I can be a habitual pleaser when in a relationship with a narc. I am very out going and I’m very comfortable commanding and receiving attention and believe me it had bothered both Narcs in the end and it ends up being a competition. At first, they like it because they think it makes them look good, but in the end they hate you for cause there can only be one star of the show. There is no such thing as co stars to them.
The one thing that all Codependents all share is looking outside the self for validation and confirmation of worth. I am of the opinion that if you have multiple narc romantic relationships you likely have codependency issues but that my opinion. Codependency while not prevalent in all relationships usually shows up in some other areas of your life as well example work which is definitely my case as I have had a narc boss for years. When I first started working with him, he said you are very good at this and I always want fhe best on my team but why do I always feel like I’m fighting with you for control ? Yep that was said before I ever knew what Codependency was or let alone diagnosed. That was dialogue between Narcissist and a Codependent and neither knew what they were at the time well at least I didn’t
Hi Lori,
You’re not the only one.
I am Codependent too.
That all makes perfect sense to me, Lori. I have some of what you describe, but I think definitely not other parts.
It does remind me of a good friend of mine who can get very controlling and perfectionist but who I do not see as a narcissist. She tends to butt heads with narc bosses at work and she married one (now divorced). She tends to get taken advantage of and tends to overwork somewhat.
Nunya
The person you describe is me. I have to be considered the best at my job. If I even make a mistake I beat myself up about it. I hate any sort of criticism regarding my work. I often do way more and feel way more responsibility than I should. I both thrive and resent being needed
Ha, I would ask if you were her, but last time I saw her was a couple of weeks ago and I told her about codependency. She was unsure. She is seeing a therapist and I tried to encourage her toward additional avenues. She very much wants everything done properly! In fact I left the lunch annoyed because she explained something to me in assertive detail, mostly correctly, when I wasn’t ready to hear it and really just needed to be supported. She puts herself second way too much and takes responsibility for everything and then draws a hard line about certain things (thank god or there’d be nothing left). She hates making mistakes.
Anyway, I adore her.
That is me. While I’m not a particularly detailed person and I would even say I’m disorganized but what I am very good at is solving problems. I’m extremely good at leveraging my resources and getting things done that were thought couldn’t be done or being extremely knowledgeable in my line of work. To put it simply, I make sure I know more than everyone else. I create dependency on me in others but fhen resent that people need me so much and will feel under appreciated. If I make a significant mistake, it will consume my thoughts. I almost can’t even tolerate it. I often forfeit fine off and often seem like a martyr. I am often paired with the most difficult people because I seem to be the kinky one who can handle them.
It’s exhausting
NunyaBiz
did you survive being snowed in?
Did you have to snowshoe to the gym?
I was completely stir crazy from being housebound after two weeks of torrential tropical rain one year. I totally get that.
So many interesting points were raised in your comments. I’m still thinking about those, and Lori’s, and Chihuahuamum’s.
Caroline, I decided to take the four wheel drive out after it stopped snowing but it was a dubious decision. The roads were still worse than I thought, it was fine though. It was late and I prefer to go to the gym in the eariler part of the day, so I just went to get something to eat. A little stir crazy because of the holidays interfering with my normal momentum. I try to keep up with the exercise routine at the least because it helps my mood a lot.
I thought your post was very insightful also. Btw…
regarding being married and supernova… my situation with my husband is very confusing to me. I consider us sort of half-separated in a way at the moment. We’re *mostly* getting along ok but there is no physical relationship. He is a very emotionally detached person and that used to come out more malevolently sometimes because he didn’t understand himself and would detach and focus anger outwardly in a passive way quite often and couldn’t interact with me emotionally. It’s hard for me to explain. Sometimes he would feel a bit vengeful. Sometimes he could just shut down completely. I was always reactive, hurt and confused by it because he has a calm, mostly passive, even tempered, well-intended core demeanor. I think some of the problem is that he was the adopted first child of a sociopathic narcissist (I think I finally firmly made her blacklist this year where she’d let me believe I wasn’t before and I just don’t care anymore to bother with it). He still goes on what I call “auto-pilot” mode sometimes where he talks in circles and I have a hard time snapping him out. But my point is, there has been a lot of fighting, not supernova. I spent a long long long time talking through and developing my perspective and feelings until I got him to a reasonable place so that my hope is that if we do split up that he will be reasonable and we can stay on good terms. When he was first blaming me for everything years ago he would threaten to out me as a terrible person and to take everything away (I have no family support).
He is also tall and strong and could smash me, but he has very low tendency toward physical violence.
I love your thing about a goodbye letter to friends, I respect that I think it is considerate, direct and brave. I have had several female N friends throughout my life. I end up feeling like I’m being taken along for some ride I don’t want to be on.
Lori, that’s the thing about my friend too I think she exhausts herself. Luckily she tells me some things her therapist says and my impression is that her therapist is good and has her best interest in mind (I have seen some terrible ones that cause damage). I was recommending intensive CBT to her but it is hard to find the time, probably not feasible for her. She said she may try EMDR.
I hope you have some activities that are relaxing and pleasurable for you. For her I think she compromises her physical health, it doesn’t sound like the case with you. Ha, she is also a neat freak I’d say.
Nunya
I’m kinda odd in that I’m a perfectionist I’m done aspects of my life and not at all in others. I am not a neat freak at all actually quite the opposite and I tend to be disorganized but I am pro at certain things particularly things like reading people and the best way to approach them or sway their opinion. I am also hyper focused on the way others view me. I can’t tolerate making mistakes they often cause me panic attacks which I believe all of this is rooted in shame. Codependency is a shame based dysfunction and I seem to have a healthy dose of shame. If I do something wrong I feel like everyone is judging me for it and feel humiliated and will blow things completely out of proportion, I can go long periods where everything is fine and then something happens st work or what ever and I can’t cope and then here come the panic attacks. It really does suck to be like this. I have made small improvements but I still suffer with panic attacks that come every 2 or 3 years. They are the worst because they are completely debilitating and I go from complete confidence to zero confidence just like that
It is exhausting
Lori, bless you, have you looked into EMDR? I don’t know where you are at, but where I am we have a sort of psych-based wellness center that takes multiple approaches to these kinds of things. It is a very non-judgmental place that acts as a support system for multiple issues and they are very welcoming and very outcome focused in a practical way. I have heard the EMDR is highly effective, which means to me that a person can experience a real tangible life improvement in a short period of time and I would not let that opportunity slip by if you are having difficulty that could be remedied even 25%. I think we tend to think in terms of “fix” and “solve” when really “improve” even by small amounts can produce much success and relief. We forget that.
You remind me of my friend so much. But I really do also relate to what you say about shame and panic attacks. I used to experience what you are describing in a debilitating way when I was younger, it was a big problem. I know exactly what you mean. My mother was hypercritical constantly and my father could be hypercritical at random and neither gave me a reliable method for being productive or handling difficulty. In high school I had massive panic attacks and tried to get help but my father literally prevented me from doing so. Even after being called into my school to help me he argued against me that I didn’t need it. He never handled well anything that might indicate he wasn’t doing an amazing job as a parent, it couldn’t be discussed. I related to what NA was saying about narcs opening their home to “help people” also, because I’ve seen the dynamic she describes in a few ways, and my school counselor was trying to get the my father to address the fact that we had a known child sex abuser living with us at the time.
One of the reasons my panic and anxiety reduced to a manageable level is because my husband has given me some shelter and stability in my life and I have been able to experience some growth in confidence, but I still have a lot to work on. A lot. Most people I meet perceive me as outgoing, friendly and confident though, and it’s been said to me. Other issues manifested in my relationship and self, that is why I went through CBT, which helped me a great deal. If you are trying to take on everything yourself I really hope you have support because you should and you deserve to take care of yourself.
Hi Chihuahuamom, I think this ‘title’ is more desirable because of the prefix, the ‘super’ part. Who wouldn’t want to be ‘above’?
I have to admit that the first time I read the article I was hoping to recognise myself in it. But no. Standard empath (who, for some reason, seems more empathic than she really is). The narcissistic traits are well hidden…
great point. there is something empowering about being a super empath. I do think there are weakeness. I feel I am one but I don’t think it’s a good thing. because I can get involved in stupid causes that are not mine. I need to learn to focus on what matters and I cannot save the whole world.
I couldn’t resist! I had to do the maths!
OK, so I Googled the population of the UK. In 2017, it was 66.02 million. For ease of argument, I’m going with 66,000,000.
Another GEN I know puts the amount of true Empaths (defined as having more cognitive and affective empathy than the general population) at about 2/3%. I’m picking 3% as best case.
HG states that SE is 5% of that. So the true numbers are these.
In the UK,
1,980,000 are Empaths as defined above
of these,
99,000 belong to the SE school.
This is then
0.0015% of the general population
As to the ratios?
Based on the EXACT numbers I’ve given above the answer is [drum roll]
1 in 666.6 recurring….
The Devils’ Number
How. Fucking. Strange.
But then, it’s Christmas and where would we all be without a really good ghost story???
Bwah ha ha!
x
P.S Don’t have nightmares!
P.P.S I so miss Christopher Lee with his dark, rich baritone narrating a ghost story on the BBC. Good times.
Renarde
It is not 5% of an areas population. Your looking at a small picture and not the bigger picture. Your numbers are wrong.
Nope, I’m not lovely. It’s 5% of the total emps which in form only 3% of the entire population.
Renarde
I would question your “3% empath” number. Is that not just a guestimation you heard from someone else? Although I will admit, there are far less actual empaths out there than we tend to assume.
“Normal,” by its very name, refers to the largest, most prevalent part of the population. But here on the blog we seem to divide people into narcs and empaths as if normals were rare. A lot of people are either empathic normals or narcissistic normals depending on where they fall on either side of the center line between empath and narc.
Correct.
HG
What of the Contagion? I am curious to your view compared to the SE.
What of the contagion, Twilight?
I agree on the 3%, it’s uncorroborated but from another GEN. I must admit I was shocked when he told me that. Then shocked again at HG saying 5%.
I misread your comment.
So I’m confused would you consider a Codependent normal?
Interesting. Thank you for providing that clarification.
HG, I’m still trying to imagine what a Super Empath is. I’m shocked that it’s only 5% of empaths. Is it someone who is saintly like Pope John Paul 2 who is just imbued with strength of character and goodness? Or is it a requirement that they have a high status on society? Do Super Empaths have alpha type of personality? Can you give a name of a popular person who is a Super Empath?
They need not have a high status. It is having particular robust traits which result in a position of “this is enough” but before being placed in a “do or die” position. Many people think they are super empaths and went super nova because they fought back but that’s usually the “do or die” moment. I will be writing about the distinction in a future article.
Thank you HG! I am looking forward to more future articles about SE. I really appreciate your clarification.
You are welcome.
It helps clear things up some, I really want to read the article also.
I still have no idea of any of the categories. I do think I have a sadistic-ish streak that scares me and I’ve wondered about, but absolutely only with N behavior and I have morality lines I’d never cross and have done zero times.
Well, reading over some of the articles again I have developed some further ideas and I see some overlap.
I am snowed in and it’s driving me crazy. I’m about to snowshoe to the gym if I have to. And my Kindle cloud reader seems to keep going on the fritz lately.
HG
“They need not have a high status. It is having particular robust traits which result in a position of “this is enough” but before being placed in a “do or die” position. Many people think they are super empaths and went super nova because they fought back but that’s usually the “do or die” moment. I will be writing about the distinction in a future article.”
This answered what I wanted to know dealing with a Contagion. I was comparing an SE and a Contagion in this aspect.
You are welcome, Twilight.
Twilight
Well that makes me curious. What conclusion did you make about contagions and super empaths
Windstorm
Both SE and Contagion (from my understanding of HGs comment) reach a “this is enough” then the “do or die”. The difference in this especially the “do or die” is an SE uses their energy to “fight” against the narcissist, a Contagion uses the narcissist energy and not theirs to “fight”. The contagion also has an advantage the SE doesn’t she actually “feels” the narcissist, it puts the narcissist at an extreme disadvantage if they do not truly understand what they are up against, if the narcissist understands then they know they must trigger the contagion anger to keep the upper hand, that is hard to do.
An SE is roughly 5%
A Contagion is roughly 1%
Twilight
That is very interesting. I know it is very difficult to trigger my anger. When my Pretzel was his most abusive at the nadir of his alcoholism, still I never got angry. Hurt, worried, confused, frightened – lots of things, but not angry. It was sort of like I was quietly working undercover of his anger to set everything up to move out on my own. When I left he was just quiet and watching and I could feel he was unsure what response would be best.
HG
I have been thinking a lot about this article and I would love to hear your further thoughts and insights on ‘The Super Empath’.
What do you think are the differences between the SE with an extroverted personality type, compared with an introverted one?
How does her upbringing in respect of the type of N she was subjected to in her formative years impact on the type of SE she is?
What is the impact on her if she was the product of two N-parents, compared with only one?
If it was a Lesser parent? A Victim-N parent?
A Mid-Ranger, or a Greater?
I feel sure that the ferocity of rage exhibited in my family had direct bearing on my behavior.
Which scenario out of the above is likely to squash a fledgling SE and cause her to become a ‘late bloomer’?
What are your thoughts on the formation and later behavior of a SE with regard to being subjected to sexual abuse? Emotional abuse compared with the addition of physical violence? Emotional neglect and therefore emotional abandonment?
What are your thoughts on how the SE is formed in relation to how many siblings she has, and her birth order? An only child compared with the middle child? Being the eldest daughter compared with the ‘baby’ of the family? Are there any youngest child SEs?
What do you think?
(apologies to any male SEs, just working the female angle today)
There will be more material on the Super Empath, Caroline, which will answer many of the questions you have posed, when I publish the various books which deal with the schools an cadres of empaths.
Twilight, that is interesting. I’m not sure I understand completely, but it is fascinating.
I kept going extreme negative with someone and I did keep commenting that I could feel negative energy and it was bothering me (a lot). It felt so bad to me. Simultaneously I was arguing some huge wrong I felt in the world. It was definitely, looking back, regarding narcissism, which I eventually figured out. I couldn’t identify the collection of behaviors that was bothering me, it appeared too random for me to put a fine point on what my problem was (probably because most descriptions don’t address the truth like HG’s). It is a process of disengaging from that very strong reaction I was having, but understanding what my problem was very specifically has helped me to
1. calm down
2. improve my response and overall behavior
But I wanted to tell you that when I read the descriptions of “super” and “contagion” I did see and feel some overlap, so it is very perceptive the way you’ve put it, I see something in what you are saying.
HG
Thank you for replying!
I’ve had many more thoughts about the subject since, and have many more things I’d love to hear your opinion on.
Time doesn’t permit for either of us at present.
For now I’ll be content to wait for more printed offerings par excellence from ‘Evil Lair Publications Inc’.
Caroline R, those are excellent questions! I am so looking forward to those books and articles. I think that we are all super in our different ways because we overcame so much on our lives and we learned to cope with these hardships and survived. Our different situations have affected the way that we needed to cope and thus our traits as well. I have also been wondering what kind of upbringing or factors creates a Lesser, Mid-ranger, and Greater. I think that HG is so advanced in categorizing narcs by their characteristics and it would serve the world so much good of they would invest in studying these more and what causes.
mommypino
Thank you for your thoughts. At the moment, my mind is so drawn to this subject, and it’s turning it every which way and considering it from every angle.
I so enjoyed our discussion with WiserNow about our mothers. I’ve thought about you both everyday since.
I’ve read some of your comments with Windstorm on the ‘Doormat’ post, VERY INTERESTING, and it’s gotten me thinking about that too. I’ve been considering so many of the layers of that subject, and what factors are necessary to produce a daughter in that role.
There’s so much to read, ask about and ponder.
I hope you’re well.
Do you listen to Citizen Way, Tauren Wells, King and Country, Colton Dixon or Hawk Nelson? I have them on my playlist.
Hi Caroline, I’m guessing that they are country singers? I’m not familiar with country artists. I don’t hate it but I’m more into classic rock although country music is really big where I live. I will check them out though.
I’m glad that you enjoyed our discussions. Sometimes I was wondering if I was out of line with aome of my questions and comments. Deep self introspection is never really my forte. The questions that you ask me are making me think deeper though, but I feel like I can’t really get deep enough. I might be afraid of it too. I was thinking that with my chaotic matrinarc I didn’t really do a lot of self evaluation or introspection to cope because I didn’t have a lot of alone or quiet time from her. Instead I found something else to do or read to tune her out and distract myself.
I would also agree with this and I would liken it to what HG refers to as ‘Hot’ and ‘Cold’ Fury.
Just my own thoughts but I liken ‘Hot’ Fury as to a sudden and almost near complete loss of control, which I suspect falls largely in the realm of both sexes of the lesser school. Truly, the so-called ‘red mist descending’. Much like a lot of a documentary I saw the other night on the V2 weapon and how the Germans seriously struggled to get the damn thing pointing in the right direction and THEN hitting the targets successfully. It’s always baffling to me why others think humans can suddenly explode with rage and then it can be rationally contained and directed? Maybe some can. I think most often, others intervene. Or not.
Cold Fury though, whether N or E based is different beast. It’s the nuclear missile, absolutly on target. Again, this is only from my perspective. When I have entered into cold fury or supernova itself, it is a blackness that descends. It doesn’t come right away though, there is thinky time. Time to accept or reject. Flight or fight, essentially outmanoeuvre. Point is; there is a choice.
So, when it happened to me recently it was the total and utter temporary removal of my affective empathy but not either the contagion or cognitive strands. Well, it’s bizarre. Sight, sensing and hearing are heightened. Thoughts that form are now focused entirely on the swiftest conclusion to the situation and NOT the most sadistic one but if the two outcomes should happily coincide and the SE is of the right stuff then anything may be possible. Anything.
For an E though, there are consequences and I’m calling this Emotional Howlback. You will pay, emotionally and it will hurt. Therefore it is good that you do get that brief moment before you enter into the SN because there are consequences from hysteria to catatonia and everything in between.
It’s to that end that I do ask if HG would ever consider writing an article about the monumental injustice meted out to Ruth Ellis. From ALL the significant men and women in her life and of course the legal system itself.
It would be really great if you could do this.
Cold and hot fury are explained extensively in, wait for it, ‘Fury’.
Renarde
Love your term “emotional howl-back.” The mental image it provokes is very apt.
Thank you Windstorm!
“They are drawn to our kind less because of the co-dependent’s need to seek validation of identity through a narcissist, but more because they are initially attracted to the apparent emotional output of the narcissist. ”
It is indeed false, and therefore not reflective of reality or fact.
Nunya biz, this is what we talked about the other day. I was drawn to his strength and now I see him as weak. The attraction is gone. I love it when I have a moment of clarity and then I see confirmation in what HG has written.
Dearest Vivacious Ninja Blender,
They walk among us. Their hypocrisy knows no bounds. And yet somehow their weakness is shored up by external means.
And then…. I really think that if you can eliminate/drastically reduce their influence and the gravitational suck of extreme energetic deprivation you can float a bit sometimes. I just want to be able to tell the difference. A lack of illogical, self-important, black and white, chess piece arranging, inhuman, ever-judging, self-aggrandizing without self-reflecting HAZE of irrational greed with absolutely no charitable notions to speak of IS JUST ONE SMALL HINT at what lies beneath, which is essentially nothing.
Spending time around people with something to genuinely give is life affirming. GOSO/no contact is it, but not just as a matter of difficult restraint, more as a matter of embracing life and love.
Nunya Biz, waking up and checking my notifications the first thing I see is you calling me vivacious. Haha that doesn’t happen every day and its a perfect example of the point you make about spending time with people that genuinely give. Thanks for starting my day with a laugh even though HG says I can’t keep the title.
Well I enjoy your vivacious posts!
HG. How many Empaths fall into the SE school?
5% roughly.
Wow! That’s a lot smaller than I’d anticipated.
Thanks for answering and hope you had a good Christmas.
This clears up a few things for me. From your explanation, I can rule out co-dependant. I’m still on the fence if I am super empath just because of the explanation about the wallet and homeless person. I would help but it would be directing them to someone else. Possibly a social worker.
Well, the way I see it, it’s about the difference between helping someone when the only benefit you will receive is their gratitude and may in some cases actually put out, to the ones who fight (in any arena) for others because it’s really and truly what they believe in. Both qualities are needed in this world. The N mimicking qualities of the SE make them ideally suited as they will sense other Ns trying to manipulate.
Depending on the SE’s awareness, well I guess directs how well manipulations are defeated or better still, sidestepped without engagement.
I know, Mercy. I have never figured out what I am, in regards to the codependent, empath, super. People do always mention that I am way more empathic than the normal person, I believe I am too. But I wouldn’t put it past me to rob a bank if push came to shove,
Anm, what I’m taking from this is that the title doesn’t matter as long as I’m comfortable with who I am.
I’m gathering from your last couple sentences that if there is a Zombie apocalypse I’m going to want you around haha
Anm I’m with you on that!!!