A Stolen Love

a-stolen-love

Our victims have many things in common. Those shared traits are why they are chosen and why they become subjected to our incessant manipulations. The evidence of considerable empathic traits is of course one of the pre-requisites to gaining the attention of the narcissist. Exhibit a tendency to care, an ability to see another person’s point of view and a desire to help and you are issuing a neon-lit “Come and get me” to our kind. Your high-scoring on the empathic scale is naturally of considerable value to us. There is, however, another core principle that you all share which is irresistibly attractive to us. This is your devotion to love. You believe in love, you are advocates of the act of loving, you give love and (although not always) you want to be loved in return. Love is all you need, love conquers all and love is a many splendored thing. Love matters. You see that the world can and will be a better place if more love is exhibited. You love with a depth that is beyond many people. You truly give your all. Your love is perfect, selfless and based on a deep-seated notion that loving someone is the best and most wonderful thing one person can do for another. Such noble and laudable sentiments. Your status as a devotee to love means that you will strive to maintain that love once it has been gained. Love may give the appearance of having departed but you know, you believe, you always believe that it can be found and resurrected. That which has become dulled and blunted will be polished and returned to sharpness. That beautiful golden glow will shine again and you are the person to make it happen. You are the healer and the fixer. That which is broken shall be mended by the application of your burgeoning heart. You are a disciple of love and as such there is nothing you can do but act in accordance with the principles of loving. It is second nature to you. You are so full of love you must find ways of allowing it to manifest in the world and of course the pinnacle of doing so is to find that special someone. You want to find the one so that all of this marvellous love can find its true home. You are compelled to find your soul mate, your life partner and your best friend. Only then can your obligation to provide this amazing love be fulfilled and we thank you for being this way. On a daily basis we give thanks that you delicious and beautiful empathic individuals are committed to the promotion, promulgation and practice of love.

We come with the appearance of being that one special person who you can lay all your love upon. That person who will readily accept all of the love you have to offer and we will return it. Some of you would happily give this love in order to ensure there is an elated recipient and amazingly it would not matter to you whether that love was returned or not. Your sacrificial nature is stunning yet even more welcome. We are of course content to reflect your love in order to bring about yet more from you. We understand the transaction and we are happy to oblige because we are giving you absolutely nothing. We have come to take. We have descended on you ready to strip you of every ounce of love that you can provide. We will slurp it from you, nibble it from your straining frame and gulp it down as we devour your love. We will take it away from you time and time again. Do not be mistaken and think that you are providing this love based on a reality. You are doing so on a false premise. You have been conned into giving this love to us because we make you think we are the very thing you want when in reality we are anything but. We are fraudsters and we have come to take your love. If you knew what we truly were you would not offer your perfect love to us but we want it. We want it so much and we always take it. We make you unknown martyrs to the provision of love. We come without warning even though we appear with an explosion, all of it aimed to distract and misdirect so that we may pilfer your love. Our thieving knows no limits or bounds as we take what does not belong to us and use it for our own warped purposes. We keep on stealing your love until you are left spent and wretched, sat amidst the ruins of the relationship which once seemed impregnable and infinite and now is little more than ash streaked across blunted stone. We gorge on your love, gluttons that feed at the banqueting table as you slowly realise that the sumptuous love we appeared to return to you is in fact empty, a puff of air and without any substance. Yet this realisation comes far too late for by then the damage is done. Not only have we helped ourselves to all of your love we have, invariably ripped away and stolen your capacity for further love. Once you finally extricate yourself from our grip and eventually make sense of what has happened to you, even though it may take some considerable time, how often have your kind uttered the sentence,

“I do not think I will ever love any again, how can I after that?”

Words similar to such a question are regularly uttered by those who have been sucked into our malevolent maelstrom. We are the love thieves. We come and take the love to which we are not entitled but we are not done with that. Oh no. We rip out your heart in order to leave you so bereft that you can never love again. We steal your love. We are the love thieves of your past, your present and your future love.

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604 thoughts on “A Stolen Love”

  1. Nunya Biz. my comment did make it down there. ⤵ It was very hard trying to remember what I wrote as I lost it twice. Sorry you to had to endure my hip-hop x 2 HG.

  2. HG, I am curious if you’ve ever experienced a crash to your WP site? I’m obviously not tech-savvy, so I’m curious as to what has happened or would happen? Have you ever lost comments on a thread?

    (How sad is this that I’m asking I.T. questions on V-Day?) Please don’t answer that last question. ☺

      1. 😄 Valid point, Narc Angel. And I do foresee that happening. I mean – he’s a greater narcissist. He is DYING to show us the goods.
        HG, haven’t you considered doing such while you’re still in your prime… with hair and all?

      2. lol BKK. Hair and all. He could show us any picture and we wouldn’t know the difference. I always imagine him as a fat, short bald guy sitting at his basement computer pulling pictures off the internet and making everything up (kidding, HG).

      3. Good point, SMH! 😃
        That basement… he could still live with MatriNarc for all we know!

        I sense HG is itching to show us what he looks like. I wish I weren’t so eager to know, but I’d enjoy seeing what everyone on here looks like… so, natural curiosity – I assume? Even if HG fits your description, I must say that he does have good taste in shoes… from his hiking boots when he was swinging to A-ha’s Take on Me, to his Walking the Plank pair. Those footsteps sounded like my favorite Italian boots when I’m trotting along. HG, will you at least share if those pretty brown shoes were made in England or Italy… or wherever?

      4. BKK, If we keep insisting he looks like a fat, greasy little troll he will show us what he looks like just to prove us wrong :-).

  3. Yo, Nunyang Biz,
    I don’t know what it is.
    But I think they do
    have Anxiety too.

    But I’m 2 skeered 2 say
    if their worries are great.
    But let’s just see.
    Ask the H to the G?

    Any Ang–Zi–eh–Tee
    for homie HG?

    Pretty sure I just gave away that I’m a pasty white girl? Nunya Biz, I can’t say for sure if HG has anxiety like THE REST OF THE WORLD, but you all must have heard somewhere that they don’t, so maybe I should just give up on psychology and stick to rapping? But my typos have been horrible lately! Sorry about misspelling your name earlier. I was really only trying to say that I am your yin to your yang. 😄

    (Tried to post this to your comment below, but I think my anglo-rapping just about caused a crash.)

    1. Hahshaha!
      BKK sounds a little rap star too.
      I won’t try to rhyme it : D Oh thanks for making me laugh.

  4. You’re right BKK. The thread is glitching. I came on to reply to Windstorm and found your comment.

    I know I’d love the US. I’ve been twice. Here are some thoughts about the US.

    Things I love

    The people (kind, honest, straightforward and speak their minds)
    Getting a free Taco at Taco Bell when you buy a wrap (That blew my mind)
    The size of the lobsters available

    Things I didn’t like

    Turning right on a red (WTAF?)
    Not being able to walk anywhere because the distances are too great
    Sports bars – fucking weird

    Things that confused me

    Why has no-one got kettles? Why? How do Pot Noodles work?
    Paying more for an item because of tax at the till. How? How?
    Why people thought I was from Oz – those accents don’t even sound remotely alike! Are all non-Americans by default from Australia?

    You are very welcome to sit next to NA. I will sit opposite her so she can be kept under observation at all times.

    1. Renarde, this literally made me lol. I take the same route home from work everyday. Everyday I take a right at a certain intersection. On Friday they put a sign up that says “no right on red”. WTAF? Dirty bastards!!

      You don’t pay taxes when checking out?

      1. Mercy, Taxes here are sky high (VAT at 20%) but they are built into the price. Just about everything is more expensive (at least in London) but no surprises at the till!

    2. Ha! Great Post.
      Renarde, it is glitching like a cat that’s just been drenched. I wish I could blame the stress we’ve placed on this thread as to why my spell-check seems to prefer narcissist spelled as “narcassist.” Jeez, make one mistake and my phone is like a woman. It won’t forget anything!

      Or it c-o-u-l-d be my voice-to-text; sometimes it struggles to understand my Kentucky accent, so I hear ya, Renarde. See why I need this trip?

      Your observations on the US made me chuckle out loud. 😄 You have a seat on my party bus any time. And since you’ll be traveling the farthest, you get first dips on seating… wherever you like… as long as you keep NA in full view. Whew! It’s nice to know that we got that job covered. Thank you.

      As payment, we’ll ask WS to slide our party bus into the drive-thru at Taco Bell. We’ll ask the clerk to guess where you’re from? If the clerk say, “Renarde is from wherever Crocodile Dundee is from,” your Mexican feast will be on me. 🍅

      Looking forward to some day truly meeting y’all. ❤

      1. I hope that nobody answered my question because they think I’m a horrible mother for saying that. I promise that I love my kids with my whole heart. When I was young, and my parents popped my bottom, I swore that when I grew up, I would never lay a hard on my own children. Back when I went to school, the teachers could still paddle. I remember getting called to the front of the class by my teacher because I didn’t put a “period” at the end of a sentence. Actually, I did, but it was so light Mrs. Teacher couldn’t see it. She swatted my rump so hard that the kids laughed at my reaction. It was humiliating and I swore then, too, that I’d never spank my children.

        And I really much didn’t. But then there would be the occasional knee-jerk reaction when they did something dangerous… start to run into traffic or such. It was almost an instinct to swat at their little hand if it reached for the hot stove. Other than that, I could usually reason with their little minds.

        My youngest is a softy. He doesn’t wish to do anything wrong, so raising him has been a breeze. Sweetest. Kid. Ever.
        And while I love my now grown son just as much, that kid was a live-wire. He was precious, but he was a like trying to tame a wild Mustang. I remember when I bought him a fish tank when he was little. The black Molly had babies, or fry I think they’re called in the aquatic world. ❔ Anyway, I remember watching this Molly who had just given birth swim right up and eat one of the little boogers. Swallowed him whole. I was truly troubled by this. Seriously, it was awful to watch, and I couldn’t understand how any mother could eat her young? I understood wildlife and nature, but really? What kind of a mother could eat her young?

        Then he became a teenager and I understood. It was so bad there for a while, that had I known her back then, I would have considered offering him up to Mommypino for snacks.

        But we got through it, and I’m proud of the young man he is today. So it’s probably best we don’t talk about our childhood traumas. It might inspire me to go over to his house and bop him on the head just for what he put me through all those years ago.

      1. I wondered the same thing NA! You’ve got a “reputation” of being dangerous I suppose? I call it badass. I’m hoping some will rub off on me while it’s my turn to sit beside you. Between my lessons with K and the girls’ trip, there’s hope for me yet!

      2. “What is it that is perceived I need to be watched/observed for?” – Narc Angel

        That’s exactly what we can’t wait to find out!!!

      3. Actually, Narc Angel… we were all “fighting” over who got to sit next to you on the party bus. For the record, I called first dibs. But being the empaths that we are, we decided to take turns. 😇

        Pretty sure what Renarde meant was… we know you’d be a helluva lot of fun. Being a bit of a rebel, we were all wondering … it doesn’t matter. Just appreciate that we all wanted a seat at the popular table. ☺

      4. BKK
        Oh I laughed as I knew it was all in fun. I just wondered why Renarde (or anyone) felt the hairy eyeball on me was required. Was just teasing.

      5. Well Narc Angel, hairy eyeballs or not, Renarde DOES have pretty good instincts.

        I was figuring (hoping) you knew it was all in fun. And I know it’s gonna be a long time before HG will let us all meet. But whether he hosts a Narcsite reunion, or we find ourselves actually embarking down The Bourbon Trail, I will be looking forward to seeing how you kick up those heels IRL.

        Pretty sure we were hoping you’d find a way for us all to get in trouble but without a permanent police record. That’s a fine balancing act you know, one best left for a stealthy catwoman. 🐱

      6. BKK and everybody, I just want to say that I’m not a bad guy. I wouldn’t hurt a fly. Just so everybody knows. I understand the rules and agree to them, but there is way more good than bad on the blog and in real life. It’s unfortunate that the rules put in place to protect us also create separation. That’s just the world we live in today unfortunately. Thank you for allowing our silliness, HG. I feel I have formed some enriching relationships here. If you get hit by a bus or decide to take down the blog, I will lose not only you, but my friends and that saddens me, so I will enjoy them while I have them!

      7. MB, I feel the same way, although the “hit by a bus” outcome is too The Smith’s for me, I was thinking more of those weekends when HG disappears -and we know what he is doing- and I miss you all so much! We have to wait until the master opens the doors of the castle and gives us access to be able to communicate.

      8. SP, it was a metaphorical bus that hit HG. It could be a clincher, murder by an appliance, any number of things. I expressed myself and I was heard. That’s what counts. I don’t let fear control my life.

      9. MB, noooo! It was a song reference! (one of my favorite songs ever btw): “and if a double decker bus/kills the both of us/ to die by your side, is such a heavenly way to die…” The Smiths.
        I was actually agreeing with you that things might happen, not necessarily tragic, and we don’t know if HG would be able to log in tomorrow so we totally depend on him to connect, that was all. But I was typing in bed so I probably didn’t express myself very well.

      10. SP, I don’t know that song but I will look it up now. I “got” that you were agreeing with me though. I didn’t expect to make friends here, but now that it’s happened, I have anxiety around y’all being taken away. And the ominous warning we received yesterday made me feel the need to express that I’m not a bad guy. And even though the friendships are online, I’ve “known” some of you long enough and had enough interaction to trust my own judgement of character. If I meet you in person and you kill me, HG can say I told you so. I am vigilant, but fear does not control me. Just because you are behind a screen doesn’t mean you are trying to hurt me any more than I am trying to hurt you from here behind mine. That’s it.

      11. I would never hurt a fly (take this literally, I don’t even kill mosquitos). I love you MB, and I value all of you so much, and no, I don’t wanna lose this group either. I understand your anxiety, this is the only place where I can open up without fear of being judged or of not being understood. I remember the first time I read comments of other DE and I cried, it was the first time I didn’t feel like a filthy, disgusting human being (ironically that occurred at the same time I discovered I was a dirty empath ha!). So yes, I need everyone here and I hope HG is eternal and never shuts this down.

      12. SP, don’t hold my killing of mosquitoes against me! Damn blood suckers! I only kill the ones that light and begin their feasting though. I love you too and many others here. DEs unite! HG shall be immortal. (In accordance with his status as a god.)

        This all probably seems foreign to him. You see no need for anxiety around us losing touch do you, HG?

      13. Not to mention that sociopaths or psychopaths don’t feel anxiety, am I correct? It must be nice to live without that, I’m anxiety goddess.

      14. I understand what you are saying, Sweetest Perfection. When Persephoneascending first responded to my early rants, I cried like a baby. I had kept so much secret, so once I started posting, I couldn’t stop. I had no idea that HG was the Wizard Behind the Curtain posting my middle-of-the-night thoughts. I will never forget Perse for reaching out to me in the way that she did. It was the most cleansing experience to have finally felt “heard.”

        Like you ladies, I very much appreciate the opportunity to utilize HG’s platform. (Who say narcissists won’t share the stage? They don’t know HG Tudor!)
        There are some incredible people who interact here. So it’s such a dreadful thought… to think about something happening to HG… for many reasons as well as MB’s added insight of (had he not enlisted a contingency plan) where would we all end up? I am guilty of taking this for granted. That “this” will always be here… to pop in for my realignment, available to seek the wisdom I need to stay on course.

        So I feel bad that I’m a bit of a rule-breaker (part of my widening narcissistic streak) because I do understand The Rules, and I respect the reasons why they are set forth. It gives me comfort in knowing we have the protection of Big Daddy… because people really would prey upon us here if word got out that folks were meeting up and such.

        (Although I’m still disappointed that Pops put the squash on my trip, I do appreciate his protective nature. Besides, I think when we’re all old, a reunion is still a possibility.) I better stop, or else I’ll be ordered to the step. Maybe I just should hide out in my room. 🚪
        [But I hear ya sister, on the keys to the castle plan. Maybe once HG ties the knot with Shieldmaiden… when he tells us no, we can ask her next? It’s worked for my kids on a few occasions. 😟]

        I am being serious now. If you were to have children HG, with everything you’ve been through, would you be the type of father to give them a spanking?

        It’s such a controversial topic, so you may not wish to answer. I rarely spanked my own children, but my parents had no problem in warming my ass whenever they thought I stepped out of line.

      15. “Not to mention that sociopaths or psychopaths don’t feel anxiety, am I correct? ”

        Today goes down as the day I was diagnosed as whatever the opposite of a sociopath/psychopath is.
        Oh wait, probably empathy, lol.
        I’ll just go with “has issues”.

      16. Oh. My. Gosh. Another typo. I meant to say never lay a hand* on my children. Please do not read that as it came through.

      17. We have this thread so full, that the comments are going everywhere. I was referring to my post that got put on top… hand* on not hard on. Jeez. That could get Child Protective Services all worked up.

      18. Hi, Nanyang Biz… I don’t know; I would think that they WOULD feel a certain amount of anxiety… through panic over loss of fuel, perhaps a bit of worry over being caught… but I guess some are robotic enough that it’s not much of a concern. ❓

        But a greater/elite like HG, I would guess that he experiences generalized anxiety, perhaps manifesting more as a *drive* to succeed as that understandable fear of something slipping through his fingers or being taken away stirs within his head. But I feel that they take that anxiety and utilize its energy to drive them even closer to acheiving success. (Actually., I think certain narcissists are excellent at utilizing many different energies to gain their needed fuel.)

        I suppose they like to “deny” feeling something so trivial as anxeity… an entity that us commoners also feel, but (whispering) I actually think they feel tons of anxiety. Shhh. Please don’t tell I said so.

        You made me laugh out loud, Nanyang Biz, as I agree … we’ll have whatever they’re NOT having!
        (Now I sit here, hunkered down, waiting for the dispute as I remove all of my jewelry.
        💥⚡💥😨💍💥⚡💥

      19. BKK, you are cracking me up with your posts this morning. Which is very good because I woke up cranky and it is helping.

        I wondered if narcissists experience anxiety and I would think they do and that’s part of why they act out sometimes? And I experience it and it causes reactions so I never thought anxiety negates the possibility of me being an N per se. But I do have that worry that I’ve made a mistake or done something wrong that I assume that N’s have less or none? I want to go with less.
        But socio/psychopath? I don’t think they have much or any anxiety right?

        I’m changing my name to “Nanyang Biz”, it sounds like a rap star.

      20. Well we know at the very least that HG and his kind are safe from the effects of emotional eating.

      21. Ha! So, Narc Angel, you don’t think HG spent Valentine’s at home with a glass of milk and a bag of Oreos?

      22. Yo, Nunyang Biz,
        I don’t know what it is.
        But I think they do
        have Anxiety too.

        But I’m 2 skeered 2 say
        if their worries are great.
        But if he’d say we’d see…

        Any Ang-zi-it-tee
        for homie HG?

        Did I just give away that I’m a pasty white girl? Nunya Biz, I can’t say for sure if HG has anxiety like THE REST OF THE WORLD, but you all must have heard somewhere that they don’t, so maybe I should just give up on psychology and stick to rapping? But my typos have been horrible lately! Sorry about misspelling your name. I was only trying to say that I am your yin to your yang. 😄

      23. Just got done with some more emotional eating. Which is somewhat counter-balanced by the emotional exercising, which is apparently also a thing.

      24. Oh, Nunya Biz… I understand emotional eating. It had to be an empath who planted the first cacao bean. I’ve relied on chocolate so many times, but it’s good that you are also releasing some of those exercise endorphins. Now, if I could just get as addicted to exercise as I am chocolate! But I do think it helps my mood to hit the gym, so I do … even though Narc Angel just mentioning a donut makes me want one. 🍩
        So while we on the subject, Narc Angel, how is it HG is maintaining his build with all that delicious looking food he and SM are eating?

      25. Ya, BKK, I was just having a conversation with the stock boy about the taffy I usually buy, it’s marked down to get rid of it and I told him that I like to have it because I can chew on it for awhile when I want candy and he made a comment that indicated that he thought I was eating the taffy INSTEAD of chocolate and was like

        *what*???

        No, with chocolate, with.

        But yeah I need the gym for sure, better for my mood than chocolate even.

      26. Nunya Biz … 😄 on your story.
        I like taffy as well… Banana Laffy Taffy is hard to beat, but the cinnamon and licorice salt water taffy is nice, too. Oh, and peppermint and orange & cream taffy or … well, sometimes a girl just needs a little sugar.

      27. BKK, I don’t understand this taffy thing. This is something we DO NOT have in common. Banana Laffy Taffy 🤮 Give me chocolate girl!

    3. Renarde
      Turning right on red is on your not like list?!? That’s the best advancement in traffic laws in my lifetime!

      1. I concur. It also irks me when there is a sign “no right turn on red” – that’s total pants.

      2. So that was YOU blowing your horn at me! Did you see me frantically pointing to the sign? That’s why I wasn’t turning!

      3. No right on red anywhere in NYC, just in case you go and decide you want to drive around. Pedestrians there own the crosswalks (and often get hit by cars anyway).

      4. I’m obliged for that information. I would advise readers to stay off the crosswalks (pedestrian crossings) during April.

      5. I wouldn’t drive in NYC for any man’s money! Besides, I’ve heard the cabs are quite the adventure. I would opt for that. I’ve never been there but would like to go. Nobody I know wants to go with. BKK? What do you think? After the KBT? Next trip is NYC?

      6. SMH, you are the first person ever to say to me that driving in NYC is fun! It WOULD be nice to have a local tour guide.

      7. You’re going to be tootling around NYC in a car in April? It’s my favorite place to drive! I love it! If you time the lights correctly, you can make it all the way up any of the avenues without stopping. But NYC drivers are very aggressive and quick, and they lean on their horns, so be careful.

      8. HG, besides our traffic laws, what was one of the things you most enjoyed during your visit to my country?

      9. Ah HG, a fan of the bay. Based on your Gravatar, I’m not surprised that The Sunshine State speaks to you. 🌞 Who doesn’t love the beach, but could you tolerate Disney World? Ever been?

      10. No Disney World for me although I did sort of embrace it when I tracked down the Star Wars Trading Post and picked up some gifts. I was particularly pleased with my sith umbrella which lit up red along the shaft of the umbrella.

      11. Tudor/Narc Angel… you two are cracking me up. 😂 I needed that laugh… and visual.

      12. Jesus. HG and his shaft of the Sith (glowing). What a treat the SM has in store.

        Will she be allowed to touch it HG?

      13. MB, I love NYC, so YES… whenever the party bus gets cleared for takeoff, we can go there too. You’d love it – so much to do! I have driven in NYC, and what SMH is saying about the pedestrians is accurate. As soon as you try to advance your vehicle once the light turns green, swarms of people are still walking.
        👭👬👫👪👫👬👭👪👫👬👭

        Of course, it’s worse in certain areas, but the oblivious pedestrians make it MB, I love NYC, so YES… whenever the party bus gets cleared for takeoff, we can go there too. You’d love it – so much to do! I have driven in NYC, and what SMH is saying about the pedestrians is accurate. As soon as you try to advance your vehicle once the light turns green, swarms of people are still walking.
        👭👬👫👪👫👬👭👪👫👬👭

        Of course, it’s worse in certain areas, but the oblivious pedestrians make itnot coming, we’ll need a third angel. Whaddya say, Charlie?
        I vote SMH since she could show us the ropes; plus can you imagine, MB, the conversations that would come from the front section with SMH riding shotgun?!

      14. BKK, I’m always up for a fun adventure! And don’t worry, I have a lifetime supply of sedatives if necessary for your driving. I would love to visit NYC, but that’s one place I don’t want to go alone. I would probably end up in a bad neighborhood and trust the first guy to offer directions straight to his torture chamber of doom! Maybe we’ll be cleared for takeoff in April. Dinner with HG for one of our evenings? Epic!

        Ps. BKK, I don’t know what you’re on…but can I get some when we board the bus?

      15. What I was trying to say MB…
        The driving there can get crazy. My dad used to tell me that I drive my car like a NYC Taxi cab. 🚕 So if Windstorm ever backs out on driving responsibilities, and I have to behind the wheel… well, we might have to stop beforehand and get you a craft beer … with a sedative.
        🍺 + 🍬
        I don’t know how that previous comment got so jacked up, but I was hoping that since HG is visiting in April, he’d let us ride in the backseat? We could map out the city for our Big Apple trip while he conducts whatever ominous business Greaters … and then thinking about THAT REALLY got my curiosity stirred so… I was asking if the batmobile came in a four-seat family version? 😈😇😇😇 I was trying to say that if Shieldmaiden couldn’t make it, we’d need a fourth Angel. And that’s when I thought of SMH riding shotgun… so we’d be entertained by her and HG’s debating. “Whaddya say Charlie” was just a question to Big Daddy? But.. my comment got ripped to shreds making its way through Cyber Space. It just doesn’t read the way it was originally supposed to, so I’m gonna sulk into a bit of a silent treatment and give this thread a rest… because “Stolen Love” has got to be just about ready to pop. 💥
        (But one more thing: I’m so old, MB, that we used to play Charlie’s Angels on the playground during recess at school. Everybody wanted to be Farrah. I really don’t understand how blondes have all the fun? But I do think we’d make a good Kelly & Sabrina. Just saying.)

      16. BurntKrispyKeen
        Made me laugh! I’M So old, my playground years were long gone before Charlie’s Angels made an appearance!

      17. Windstorm, now that you mention, did it ever occur to you guys that HG is like Charlie, whose face we’ll never see, and we are his empath angels?

      18. Sweetest Perfection
        Ha, ha! I was and am a feminist. I never watched Charlie’s Angels. I found it offensive. You all can be HG’s angels – I’ll pass 😄

      19. Windstorm, I am a very strong feminist too. By the time the show was on TV, however, I was very little. All I remember about the show is that there are three beautiful women (or was it 4?) who obey and adore some dude whom they have never seen, so …

      20. SweetestPerfection
        There’s just something about the words “obey and adore”…..

      21. SweetP
        Exactly with the women obeying and adoring Charlie. It’s been in our face all along and conditioning us to believe it’s not only normal but noble lol.

      22. Sweetest Perfection,

        Re: Charlie’s Angels and this…

        “women…who obey and adore some dude whom they have never seen, so…”

        This made me giggle this morning, thank-you.

      23. BKK, I’m not riding shotgun. No way. If I am in a car with HG, I am in the driver’s seat, especially in NYC!

      24. Oh, my Goodness, MB… did you notice my Freudian slip? I said FOURTH angel.
        I had this:
        😈😇😇😇
        But instead of saying we’d need a third angel, I said fourth.
        I’m too afraid to say what I think that might mean? Awww. 🐇

      25. Ha! MB, I promise that I wasn’t talking really fast over and over in a manic fit in that duplicated text above. I stand firm that we have this thread so full that there’s a glitch in the system… OR, it could be that I hit copy and paste and screwed up the post. ❔ But I promise I’m not on anything! 😉 (Just the love of a narc-free life. 💃) Though as many times as I have spelt Nunya Biz’s name wrong, I can see how one might question my soberness.
        But YES … Doesn’t dinner in NYC sound lovely!? We’ll stick together, so if anyone does take you to the torture chamber, they’ll have two karate-chopping Angels to worry about. 👠💪 But just in case Charlie gets busy popping in and out New York Catholic Churches… if he fails to send in backup, go ahead and bring some extra sedatives so that we can numb ourselves until we feel no pain.
        Who says empaths don’t have contingency plans!

      26. I agree, Sweetest Perfection; whether we want to admit it or not, there are some eerrie similarities. It will crack me up if HG’s real name is Charles.

      27. Windstorm, we also had two boys in our class that called themselves Starsky and Hutch. Would you be willing to play Huggy Bear? (Kidding – but have you ever worn one of those 1970’s furry Sonny Bono vests? Confession: I own one. 😮)
        I miss all of those corny 1970’s shows. As a kid, I also watched Love Boat; Marcus Welby, MD; Fantasy Island; Planet of the Apes; Get Smart; Man from U.N.C.L.E.; Wonder Woman; Bewitched; Emergency and more, but I had the biggest crush on The Six Million Dollar Man. (Lee Majors is holding up well.)
        See – we’ll eventually find a role for everyone. 😄
        I’ll have to look and see if all those shows are from the same network, as only one of the three channels came in crystal clear. I tended to watch that station more, when I wasn’t being made to work in the garden or tend to the hogs… or whatever.
        Thanks to everyone for allowing me to indulge in a bit of silliness; I’ll take any narc-distraction that I can get.

      28. BurntKrispyKeen
        Never watched Starsky n Hutch. And nope. Don’t even remember furry vests. Of the programs you mentioned, I only watched Bewitched and Get Smart. I only really liked science fiction, fantasy or cartoons. Absolutely nothing remotely like real life. I was a big Bugs Bunny and Star Trek fan.

      29. Ms. Windstorm, I typed “spelt” instead of “spelled.” Would that get me kicked out of an American English class? I think the Brits are rubbing off on me.

      30. BurntKrispyKeen
        Ha, ha! Well I was a science teacher, but I’d say in middle school, language arts teachers would probably just be happy to be able to read your handwriting!

  5. Mommypino, I thought about listing several macro-movers who show empathic traits while exhibiting strong leadership skills, but like you implied, we can’t say for certain the true nature of any of these public leaders. Narcasism is best understood up close and personal. We are all too aware of how they conduct themselves under a well-orchestrated persona. Like K says, never forget the facade.

    So I assumed that my list of strong empathic leaders would be demolished as HG, or someone, would proclaim, “No, that highly successful commander plays for MY team – Sorry, you empaths can’t claim ’em.” And it’s true, Renarde – most successful leaders showcase strong narcissistic characteristics. But for me, the best leaders showcase both… specific qualities of narcissism that drives success balanced by the genuine compassion of an empathic soul.
    They do exist, up and down the ladder.

    I think Windstorm brings up a valid point in that perspectives viewed from those living in the UK and US vary a bit. How neat, SMH, that you get to look from both angles! Being a freedom-loving American has certainly skewed my perception in my adamant belief that “everyone” is capable. I’m sure, Renarde, that much of my “hope-loving-language” is because of just that. Still, I enjoyed the ways in how you challenged me. Trust me – freedom of speech is what I thrive on… greatly value, so I love it when intelligent women express themselves.

    I have grown up with success stories all around me. My generation teethed on that stuff. Freedom, the pursuit of happines… that American dream was bred into us. At one of my companies/clients, their president began his career sweeping the floors there. He now makes over $800,000 a year running the local operation. Of course, there are many CEOs/leaders making millions who began their careers in a similar fashion. Making tough decisions along the way, from Rags to Ritches. No way do I believe that they are all narcassists.

    Renarde, since my now lost-in-the-mix facetious comments started this particular debate… by my trying to defend SMH’s stance in her Tudor debate… I’m thinking we already have this thread pretty full. It’s starting to glitch on me and I’ve “lost” a few of my comments in cyberspace.

    So I say that we fuck this shit sky high and pause for a moment… to allow me to invite y’all over for an outing on The Kentucky Bourbon Trail. By the time we get to the last distillery, we’ll all be in agreement over… somethin’ at least.

    If the wise Windstorm doesn’t drink, perhaps she can be our DD with K riding shotgun to help WS with driving directions? We can call K “Alexa” to help conceal her identity. With this many ladies, I can hear us now, “Alexa, where is the nearest restroom?”

    So what do you say Foxy Renarde? I think you’d like it over here. Twilight, you in? SMH can entertain us with more debate ideas. Besides, we need an excuse to celebrate WhoCares new adventure.

    If you ladies will be okay with it, we can ask Mommypino to bring the snacks. I like pork rinds! (And the very best egg rolls I have ever eaten were made by a co-worker of mine who grew up in the Phillipines. I have no doubt that Momny-P will bring delicious, protein-filled treats. ☺

    We’ll have to watch MB though, I bet she can really sprinkle that glitter once she’s had a shot or two of the good stuff. I’ll just bring a broom. The clean-up will be worth it to see her cute-little-self in action.

    So what do y’all say? Everyone else is invited too, but I get to sit next to Narc Angel, okay?

    1. BKK, yasss I’m in! But you’ll have to take turns with me sitting beside Narc Angel. I looked it up. 14 Distilleries in 8 days starting in Louisville. Sounds like a whole bunch of fun! I’m not too far away and I’m always down for a good road trip with some wild n crazy empaths!

      1. 😄 It’s a deal, MB.
        We’ll have to have Renarde bring back a bottle for HG to commemorate his roll in inspiring our girls’ trip.

        And I do believe that we WILL meet… that at some point, society will feel free enough to discuss narcissism so that the need to conceal our identities becomes insignificant.

        I see in our future that HG will someday have Narcsite reunions, and we’ll all get to meet and greet and talk and hug… with a time limit on hugs for HG. 🕛

        Good times are ahead, MB. 🎉

    2. BKK – Hell yeah! To all of that.

      And ‘bourbon trail’? Perfect.

      Cause after reading Renarde’s comment about sports bars – I was like, yes.They are weird. We have them in Canada too – and they are fucking weird.

      Plus, I haven’t been to a decent bar (of any variety) in a dog’s age!

      1. WC & Renard, How are Sports Bars weird? I guess I drank the koolaid (rather the blue cheese dressing) because those are my hunting grounds for the best wings and beer! You can fuck the sports sky high though.

      2. Hahaha MB,

        It doesn’t have to be bourbon – I’d happily join you for wings and beer (as long as it’s not that watered down version of what Americans call beer – I know, I know – those are fighting words, but it is true!)

        As for Sports Bars (I agree with you on the sports part), I don’t know why Renarde finds them weird but they are. I mean what are they trying to be – a bar? …A communal sports watching lounge? …A family restaurant? Some of them try to be all three while being entirely devoid of any warmth or character.

        The last two good bar experiences that I’ve have had were years ago…a small Irish pub in Toronto that was soon to close (like in the week that my ex and I found it) which had an intimate atmosphere and a rich, beautiful old wood interior.

        And the other one was a gay bar on Drag Night – I’m heterosexual but I went with my cousin who had co-workers who frequented this particular bar. I had the best time – and I didn’t even drink! I was pregnant at the time (only I had not yet told my cousin) but still really enjoyed it because I could relax and dance and not feel ‘targeted’ lol. Everyone there just wanted to have fun…

        My cousin thought it was a bit odd that I didn’t want to drink that night – but I covered by saying that I wanted to have my first gay bar experience sober!

      3. WC, I’m not fond of watered down American beer either 🤮. It does need to be cold though and not too hoppy. Bitter beer isn’t my thing. I’ve heard (maybe incorrectly) that Germans like their beer room temperature. I won’t knock it til I’ve tried it though. We have The. Best. Beer (IMO) brewed not too far from where I live. The brewmaster lived and studied with beer makers in Germany. Unfiltered, unpasteurized, no preservatives Bavarian Lager. It can’t be distributed very far because it has to stay refrigerated. It’s soooo good. The health food of beers. They have a tour of the brewery once a week with all you can drink for an hour afterwards. Red Oak is da bomb! Oh, and I like the flats best. If you like the drumettes better, you’re welcome to them. If not, we’ll order all flats with extra blue cheese!

        BKK, see if there’s gay bar we can include in our tour. That sounded like fun.

      4. MB,

        Your favourite Bavarian Lager sounds like a perfect combination of old school beer-making and the modern trend of craft beer-making!

        I’m finding myself getting soooo thirsty suddenly….

        I’m not fussy on flats vs. drumettes – so there will be plenty of each to go around…I’m not a vegetarian but I’m only good for a few wings with a generous helping of fresh carrot and celery sticks with blue cheese dip – in addition to the lager! (Have to save calories somewhere – ha!)

        And as for choice of bar – I’d bet it would be a blast regardless of type: sports bar, gay bar…mosh pit – whatever – it would be fun as long as it’s in the company of you gals!!!

      5. WC, you would not believe how good it is! The brewmaster explains on the tour how it is really good for you, too! All kinds of yummy active cultures. And, just so you know, all food and drink is zero calories on the girls trip! It’s a law!

      6. I know, WhoCares…. Renarde’s post made me laugh out loud. I was at Applebee’s a bit late one night, trying to grab a meal with my son. They had the music cranked up while families were still trying to dine. The patrons at the bar were looking pretty sparse, yet there were several TVs running the sports highlights from earlier games.

        The music was so loud; I gently asked our server if she could turn it down? She said that after nine, they’re supposed to play it at a high volume to help create more of a bar atmosphere. Jeez! You can’t be a family restaurant, sports bar and a disco all crammed into the same small space!

        Still, I have been known to watch a few games at a local sports bar, so what can I say?

        Correct me if I’m wrong WhoCares, but were you referring to “decent/fun” bars in general or did I hear you actually say that you’re past due for a night out to paint the town red? 🎯 If so, I think you might have just stumbled upon a perfect painting partner. 😊
        💥♨👠🍸🎶♨💥

      7. BurntKrispyKeen,

        See! That’s a perfect example; so you do know what I mean about sports bars…but I’d like Renarde’s take as well.

        And, oh dear…

        “did I hear you actually say that you’re past due for a night out to paint the town red? If so, I think you mighy have just stumbled upon a perfect painting partner.”

        BKK, you certainly read between the lines there – didn’t you?! I’m not even sure where I last left my paintbrush…but *that* sounds like a lovely plan.

      8. Hehe, MB 😃 Isn’t it fun whenever you can just throw in a Tudor-saying. It makes you sound so cool. ❄

        I’ll take my bourbon over beer, but I love some good wings! 🍗

        We’ll have to show Renarde and WhoCares a few quality sports bars that are actually fun. Plus, they should make for good empathic Hunting Grounds as literal Sitting Targets will be everywhere… almost as good as at Lowe’s or Home Depot. We’ll just have to over look their beer bellies. 🍺 They always worse when they’re sitting down.

        Still, I’m ready!

      9. Ha! “I wanted to have my first gay bar experience sober!” – WhoCares
        Words to live by.
        (I bet that was fun!)

      10. Omg BKK, I read that while having breakfast with my son…I was giggling out loud so hard, he was demanding to know what’s funny!?!
        I can’t even…

        (It *WAS* fun!)

      11. Oh, and you didn’t offend me, WhoCares. I don’t drink beer. But all of the Americans I know who travel abroad do love European beer, telling me that the Germans have the best.

      12. Okay, I hear you, WhoCares!
        Here in Kentucky, we do have several microbreweries as well as vineyards, surprisingly enough.
        Let’s just say that I will have no trouble finding a variety of libation for anybody on the party bus. 🍸🍺🍷🍹

        Y’all are gettin’ me excited. 😄

      13. Very thoughtful of you, WhoCares…
        Yes – thank you, HG. You are most gracious. I know of not a place where a host interacts with his followers in the manner that you do. (❤)

        I’d send a kiss of appreciation your way, but I don’t want to risk upsetting Shieldmaiden. But really, what would it hurt since my smooch should lose potency as the gesture makes its way across the pond? 💋 Besides HG, I’m pretty sure that you and I are related… So to keep my Kentucky reputation in check, that kiss BETTER land on a forhead or cheek… not the southern cheek as Ive already planted plenty there.

        (Hey, a girls gotta do what a girls gotta do. It ain’t always easy scootin’ your way off the naughty step.)
        Kidding. We will be sending home a bottle for you, HG, via Renarde. Since this trip is one for the girls, we’ll experiment this route first. If the bourbon outing finds us overwhelmed with too much empathetic energy and we all end up sitting around crying, we’re definitely going to ask you come on the next trip… to moderate and ground us, if you’d be up for the challenge? ☺

        Seriously – Thank you, HG, for all that you do for us.

      14. MB, pretty sure we can find a gay bar in Louisville. But if we start there, we might never make it on The Trail!

        It sounds like a blast, so I’m all for spontaneity. Who knows where we could end up. Atlanta or the Carolinas… where will we find Red Oak beer?

      15. BKK, Red Oak Brewery is located at the big ol’crossroads called Whitsett, North Carolina. It is like manna from heaven brewed by the Angels themselves. Oh yeah, and it’s right next to the Flying J so we can grab a burger and get right back on the road!

      16. MB – I feel your excitement! You and WhoCares seem to be quite the connoisseurs of microbrewed beers. I’m impressed. I could definitely learn a thing or two from you ladies.
        I really like North Carolina… and truck-stop burgers. 🍔 I think we’ll all get along just fine. 😊

    3. Thank you for the invite BKK. I have always been wanting to visit South. I would love to oblige with the pork rinds and lumpia. However I would be lying if I say that I am not anxious about nobody wanting to sit by me out of fear of being fried.

      1. I’m not afraid Mommypino. I’ll sit between you and NA. I’m quite the little peacekeeper. *throws sparkly confetti* Party bus…rolling out!

      1. There’s no shame in time alone with pork rinds, SMH.

        At one of my class reunions, a classmate wandered off into a corner. She was drinking Tequila shots. Several of us found ourselves engrossed as she’d lick a bit of salt just before she took each shot. Of course, the guys enjoyed watching her salt-consuming technique. She was completely oblivious to the dancing around her or that my friends and I were standing there captivated by her Party of One. Pretty sure she had the best time of anybody that night.

        I’ll be looking forward to this SMH. ☺

    1. Ha! Marinathemermaid3, you should attend the Kentucky Bourbon Trail event to experience it in person. 😨 I won’t be offended if you bring earplugs.

    2. That’s what my husband tells me all the time. You sound just like him. Are you my husband? Spying on me here? 😳

      1. lol mommypino. My ExH would have said the same. I talk for a living so there you go. Yes, I do like to hear myself talk. No shame in it at all.

      2. Lol SMH, unfortunately for me, I don’t have a good excuse; I’m just a housewife. I just really have a tendency to have the weirdest ideas all the time and I tell my hubby about it and it is torture for him lol. But he says that to me in jest. He still listens because he doesn’t have a choice. 😂🤣

    3. There are a lot and I mean a lot of very intelligent people on here who are debating extremely intresting ideas that are falling naturally out of the concept of ‘awareness’.

      Why don’t you contribute? Or should we just keep on taking about HG’s sexy legs?

      1. You know, Renarde, thinking about those legs is kind of a good diversion tactic.
        HG, you should provide us with more visual aids so that we can practice our distraction techniques… to help us get our minds off our lowly-mid-rangers.

        I mean.. what’s a new body part a week gonna hurt, HG, when you know it’s helping us to heal?

        (Besides, I really don’t know what a red shaft looks like?)
        Please? ☔

      2. BKK
        Some of his body parts may even require 2 or 3 weeks of subsequent exposure to get the whole picture or to properly and fully absorb. No matter – we’re a patient lot.

      3. Red shaft !?! [Gulps]

        Oh you is a BAD BKK! I know EXACTLY where your mind is going with body parts! The only stipulation is that I would formally request that HG does NOT bring up that fucking Hand of Glory avatar again. Creepy McCreep.

      4. Narc Angel, you made me giggle out loud. 😄 But yes, ma’am – we are a patient group indeed… a bit voyeuristic but nonetheless patient.
        You know, Narc Angel, HG did make mention once about some sort of warmth coming up in February. I couldn’t tell if it was to be a tropical vacation or intense flames inspired by V-Day, but both are capable of scorching, right?
        So we’re good.

        I’m w-a-i-t-i-n-g…. patiently, of course.

      5. I know.
        Trust me, Renarde, I’ve been on the naughty step enough to know.
        Actually, I thought about asking Narc Angel if I could borrow her naughty stool cushion, but she uses it quite a bit, so I hate to ask.
        You might not have seen the Narc Angel/Tudor exchange up above, so take a stroll to the top and find where I asked HG if he’s ever been to Disney World, and then read their exchange.
        I just don’t want you to think that NA and I are complete perverts or anything. And it should be noted, Renarde, that Narc Angel and I ARE very patient. We like to think it’s a North American thing.

        So I’m just sitting here waiting.

        Patiently waiting.

        Oh, come on, hurry up… even empaths get bored looking at the same thing. If it’s not “done” just yet, we don’t have to have full-on red, we’ll take it pink.

        Kidding… Just kidding, HG.
        Sorta. And while Renarde cracked me up over the hand, I actually thought you took that image down rather fast. I miss the ole hand.

      6. It was not removed fast. I put it up and then I took it down – there was no timescale associated with it from my side.

      7. Narc Angel, I just now fully caught on to what you were saying. (Like most of my body parts, this brain ain’t what it used to be. Duh!) I was thinking “sun exposure” … for the perfect shade of Star Wars red. 😡

        You meant: Don’t you dare take those pictures down after only one week. We need to marinate in the puzzle a bit to get proper placement of the pieces and all… or somethin’ like that. 😉 So yeah – I’m on board now, NA. We don’t want to be teased with just a glance, HG. Our empathic brains take longer to process certain images, ya know… because we have certain emotions attached to ’em, ya know.

        You’re so generous with your time, HG, that we were only thinking…. well, I’m just saying that you don’t have to stop there if you feel like giving more.
        (Just don’t tell Shieldmaiden we asked; and when you marry her, please delete about half of my posts. Deal?)
        I’m just kidding again.
        Know it’s just natural curiosity of what you look like – We are NOT interested in seeing much more than a glimpse of your face… though I’m sure your Star Wars umbrella is adorable.
        We don’t really want to see its glowing red shaft.

        (Now, I noticed you wear a big watch HG. When that big bolt comes out of the sky, will I need to remove all of my jewelry to reduce conduction time? ⚡ I just want to be prepared.)

      8. To clarify:
        So, just how many lies do I get to tell before I need to duck for cover? For the record, I wasn’t expecting “the bolt” to come out of the sky just because of the picture in question.

        But if that IS the normal progression of events once such image has been released, then I would like to officially change my stance. I really do need to learn more about glowing shafts.

      9. Oh, Gawd… I’m just gonna have to give in and go out with one of those guys I’m not very attracted to… just to get this out of my system… before I completely embarrass myself here.

        Seriously, HG, when you get married… two things: I expect an invite to the wedding, and part of your gift will be a list of my posts to delete. Trust me… It will be one of the best wedding gifts you’ll ever receive. (Though I have a suspicion clean-up else where will be of greater concern. 😮)

        But to ease my mind, I will help you clean up the site so that it’s squeaky clean by the time you return from your honeymoon.

        See, Narc Angel… I was right when I said Renarde has good instincts.
        I is a bad BKK. 🙈🙉🙊

      10. “BKK – Two things:
        1. You think he gave me a cushion??!!!
        2. I am a complete pervert.” – Narc Angel

        Narc Angel, I love you. ❤
        Need I say more!
        I am working from home today, but I can’t seem to pull myself off Narcsite. This is w-a-a-a-y more fun than work!

        Renarde, I needed that scolding. I really did. I’m just an old woman, but I’m at that age. Well, you know… there’s a reason men peak around 18 – 20 years-old and we women hit that mark later. I think it’s so we don’t hurt ’em (at least one partner is biologically slowed down) and it’s God’s funny little joke for what they out us through in thrir youth… they’re winding down as we’re winding up!

        I haven’t officially dated since my narc encounter/divorce and I’m afraid it’s showing up here. So there’s another reason to add to the “pros” of HG’s rules. I am not usually this forward IRL. It’s so much easier hiding behind my purple wreath. (Not that I’m not nasty IRL, but you know what I mean.)

        Renarde, my sister tells me that I need one of those little (well hopefully not too little) tools that your narcissist is jealous of. I don’t have one. In your opinion, is my BAD bad enough that I should seek one out immediately?

  6. Oh this thread is awesome 🤪. I don’t have time to read it all through properly right now. But, I have an initial thought. Regarding the managing of relationships between Ns and Es. That there most definitely is the capacity for a N to adapt in order to gain their fuel. If they could take the major step of revealing themselves. If there was a recognised and safe way to do so? Who knows? It could happen at some point in our evolution. 🤭🤣

    1. Most Ns will just never do that. They can never be aware and are thus doomed to keep on pinging off the edges. Evermore. There are ways for an E to facilitate better behaviour from an N but I think it depends where you sit in the matrix. I also am careful that a tiger remains a tiger and needs to be treated with respect (unless you’re a MMR in which case, let the games begin! Useless cunts).

      I think all Ns are very adaptive by their nature.

    2. Hi, Louise… I agree with you, and I enjoy your optimism. 😊 Sure, I understand what Renarde is saying that most narcissists will never change, but if we just nonchalantly accept that, then we’re just giving narcissists a free pass to do as they please. They’ve been on that free ride long enough!

      Now, in no way am I trying to marginalize the significance of NPD as being a real and serious disorder. I’ve got the scars to prove just how severe this disorder is! But we humans are incredibly capable beings. And even though I believe in a Creator, we humans most certainly evolve. We adjust, we adapt and we adopt better ways once we’ve been taught.

      “That there most definitely is the capacity for a N to adapt in order to gain their fuel. If they could take the major step of revealing themselves. If there was a recognised and safe way to do so? Who knows? It could happen at some point in our evolution.” – Louise

      Yes. Yes. Yes, Louise! My heart has to believe this. My brain knows it to be true.

      We are discovering so much about brain plasticity. The human genome is complex, dynamic and very exciting in regards to the possibilities of just how much “control” we have over making the best out of nature’s generosity.

      This fairly recent gene discovery is fascinating to me. We all have this one particular gene that, when “turned on” … can help our brains build more neurons and synapses. Wow, right?! This gene can be activated thorough periods of fasting and exercise. How exciting is this! Who couldn’t use more neurons and synapses?

      How many of you remember being taught that “humans only have so many brain cells and when they die off, that’s it?” I was much younger the first time I was taught that so-called fact. And even then, in my young mind, I thought that sounded like bullshit. It just didn’t make sense to me. So I refused to believe it.

      Now, of course, we realize that our capabilites are greater than once accepted. So I have to hold onto the hope that our possibilities are endless. Without this hope (hope paired with great effort) we wouldn’t be where we are today. With continued creative planning and scientific interventions, we can and will become better… at least those who are willing to try.

      And yes… I realize that’s the key, Renarde. They have to be aware enough to be willing, but it can happen. (I’m not blinded by my hope. 👀 In my eyes, my narcassist remains an asshole. 💩 😡 But if he’d stop getting his way through being an asshole, like Louise implied, he would find improved ways to obtain fuel that didn’t destroy the source.) They’re crafty little bastards. They can and will adjust (somewhat) when forced to. We just need to force their hand a bit… No Contact – I got it, but more can be done! I’m mainly referring to hope for future generations. I want a better world. 🌏

  7. “People do things largely because they are afraid of the repercussions of NOT doing their job. Most toe the party line. Yes, there are genuine honest and decent people out there but they are in the minority. Most people just do ‘enough’.”

    Unfortunately I would agree with you on that. But it doesn’t take away from the fact that empaths contribute so much because they don’t just do ‘enough’, they go out of their way. Just imagine how horrible it would have been if all of the doctors and nurses are like what you described. When my dad was hospitalized I noticed that so much. The doctors and nurses who obviously didn’t care and would just give him the shots and check his vitals and leave. Compared to the empathic nurse who joked with him and us and noticed that his feet were cold so she went out to look for socks and put the socks on him and tucked him in so lovingly even though it was just her job.

    I did not understand your comment about me putting my faith on the wrong people.

    Also, I don’t understand why my examples of historical figures are irrelevant. I was commenting in your assertion that Ns are running society in the macro level and these people have affected change in the macro level. They were not elected leaders but they were leaders nonetheless with how they inspired people in the macro level and were able to inspire ‘movement’ in the macro level.

    Another example of a macro level leader was the empath former president of the Philippines Cory Aquino. She was the first female president of the Philippines. She has succeeded a Greater narcissist dictator Ferdinand Marcos who had her husband assassinated for challenging him. She was a total empath, I think a Standard empath. She ran against dictator Marcos and she was cheated and she inspired the People Power revolution without blood shed and she was able to oust Marcos out of power. I think that with the right circumstances and right motivation, empaths can make such dynamic and huge difference and they can be great leaders on the macro stage.

    1. Empaths are drawn to vocational professions and of course they make a difference. But that isn’t on a macro level.It’s possible, though highly improbable that an Empath could make it to the top job. However, they are still only one person and most developed government have a group of people – in the UK the cabinet – around them. A party leader is really controlled by the party itself. It must be otherwise how would they get legislation passed? Party leaders are largely figureheads who are under the dictats of whatever way ‘the party’ wants to go. This is why many are now questioning the usual two party system. Especially when places such as NZ appear to run rainbow coalitions.

      The only exception that it standing out to me of an Empath in power is QE2 and of course she was born into it. Of course, the Queen has no political power but she can advise and she does have enormous presence on the world stage.

      The UK is about to sail into some very choppy waters because she cannot live forever. When she goes the nation will be sent into a tailspin, not just with her death but the crowning of Charles. God help us.

      1. Renarde,

        I just gave an example of an Empath that became a president of a nation, Cory Aquino. She was there in the macro stage even though her country was not as powerful as the UK. And just like what I have said before, we have no idea how many empaths are already world leaders and running society in the macro level because we don’t know each of them to a great extent that we can diagnose them. We just don’t have reliable statistics to be able to say that. There might be a lot of empaths running society in the macro level but it is not very obvious because they are exhibiting high narcissistic traits in order to get in power and stay in power because they truly believe that that power will allow or allows them to create a difference for the greater good. They could be sheeps hiding in wolves’ clothing. 😉

        “Loving how you’ve conflated Trump with other other developing or dictatorial nations! Speaks volumes!

        Ah, Trump would love to be a dictator. But he’s not.

        I’m taking your point on the higher functioning ones but that does rather imply a sliding scale. Of course we know that it’s not. There is a clear boundary between being aware and not being aware. It is important to be precise, I think.”

        I’m not trying to debate on whether Trump is good or not. It’s a matter of opinion. I was just commenting on the original statement that you made that Ns are running society. So I said that Ns are probably overrepresented in politics but they are the higher functioning ones. Then you said that the Greaters are, the mid rangers would like to think that they are but they’re not. Then I said that I know some Upper Lessers as well that run countries, Trump, Duterte of the Philippines, and other presidents of developing or dictatorial countries. I just wanted to point out that we also have a lot of Upper Lessers running society in the macro level. I was not saying that they are doing a good job. I was commenting about the presence of their representation in the macro level as well.

        NA – How did you know that I love pork rinds? 😂

        Who Cares. – Pork rinds would be really good to eat with lentil soup. 😉

      2. It’s a good example but again, still begs the question is she really in charge?

        Maybe I need to be more specific and say ‘not in charge’ of which there can obviously be levels but who is in ultimate charge?

      3. Hi Renarde,

        I was trying to imply that she had great power running her nation when I described the way the Philippine government runs. I just didn’t do a better job at being direct with saying it. She had more power with being in charge of her country than Trump has in his country because the Philippine government is centralized. The state governments in the US excercise so much autonomy that the federal government doesn’t really affect it as much as it would like to. She didn’t have to deal with any of that because her government is centralized. She also had more power in her country than the prime minister of England has because she can only be ousted through impeachment at the legislature branch or through people power revolution which only happens when it gets really really bad. She dictates to her party what their vision is and the politicians at the legislative branch try to help her attain their goals. Of course though, at the world stage the US president and the UK prime minister has more power in affecting things in the global area because their countries are more powerful.

        Anyway, thank you Renarde for the discussion and for putting up with my typos and wrong grammar. I’ll just keep milking the English is my second language excuse. Also my autocorrect is off because it messes up with me when I type in a different language. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your ideas and I agree with a lot of them but I just prefer to live in my bubble where there are sheeps hiding in wolves’ clothing lol. 😂

      4. Oh no worries! I love a good autocorrect fail – I’m sure we all remember with great fondness the recent ‘hole-gate’ thread. BTW, until you just told me, I would never have guessed that English wasn’t your first language.

        I really don’t know enough about the Philippines situation to comment. I had thought though (possibly erroneously) that it was as corrupt as fuck. But I could stand corrected on that one.

        I don;t blame you on wanting to be inside the bubble, I don’t blame you at all…

      5. MommyPino
        I used to have that problem with the autocorrect, but now I download a separate keyboard for each language. That way as long as I use the appropriate keyboard, the autocorrect is for the right language. Don’t know if that will work for you.

      6. MommyPino
        No. It’s in your setting. You can choose keyboards, like you can choose languages.

      7. Mommypino,

        “Pork rinds would be really good to eat with lentil soup.”
        Hehehehe.

        And re: Empaths at the macro level of society…
        “They could be sheeps hiding in wolves’ clothing. 😉”
        I like that possibility.

      8. “It’s possible, though highly improbable that an Empath could make it to the top job. However, they are still only one person and most developed government have a group of people – in the UK the cabinet – around them. A party leader is really controlled by the party itself. It must be otherwise how would they get legislation passed? Party leaders are largely figureheads who are under the dictats of whatever way ‘the party’ wants to go. This is why many are now questioning the usual two party system. Especially when places such as NZ appear to run rainbow coalitions.”

        The Philippines have designed their form of government from the US model because the US colonized the Philippines after the US-Spanish war. We are a small country so we didn’t have federal and state governments, we have it more centralized. We have the executive, legislature and judiciary branches as well for checks and balance so the President nor the legislature does not possess complete power. It’s not a parliamentary system like in the UK. People in the Phils. elect their president democratically through elections. Like in the US, the presidential candidate belongs to a party because they share the same vision but the party doesn’t tell the president what to do and the party cannot oust the president. President can only be ousted through impeachment or a revolution.

      9. Renarde,

        you’re right about it being as corrupt as fuck in the Philippines. The president that Cory Aquino replaced was a Greater narc I believe. When he was in law school he assassinated his dad’s political opponent (he was a sharp shooter). He went to jail for it and inside the jail, he studied for his bar exams and topped the bar exams while he was in jail. The idiotic president at that time gave him a presidential pardon because he said that this guy is too smart and the country needs his talents (and also because his politician dad lobbied for the pardon). He got out of jail and got in politics. Married a former beauty queen Imelda (infamous for her shoe collection). When he became president, he wanted to be a dictator so he orchestrated assassinations, bombings, ambushes, and all kinds of violence through out the country. He blamed all of it to a socialist rebel group. He convinced the legislative branch to declare Martial Law that gave him absolute power. The senators and congressmen supported him because a lot of them have been ambushed or bombed, some of them were killed. When he got Martial Law, he controlled the media, everything, it was almost like North Korea. He stayed in power for 20 years or so. There were elections but he always cheated easily so he kept on winning. Cory Aquino’s husband spoke against him and even went to the US to go to universities and tell American students about Marcos. When he came back to the Philippines, he was assassinated as he was stepping out of the airplane. And Cory Aquino ran against Marcos and she lost because he cheated her and people was just so fed up they went on the streets and marched. It was the People Power revolution and it was so unique because there was no blood shed. Just people marching on the streets to the presidential palace with their rosaries. This info is not mainstream history info but there was an interview where somebody that was there in the palace at that time said that representatives from the US were meeting with Marcos inside the presidential palace and they told him that Reagan said that if there will be bloodshed, the US will turn against him and they will provide military support to the generals who deflected and joine the People Power. He was offered by the US a secret escape to Hawaii if he will leave peacefully and not kill anyone.

        But it’s still as corrupt as fuck. We now have a Lesser narc Duterte who encourages killing drug addicts and pushers and other criminals vigilante style to fix the crime problems. But he has all kinds of fans.

    1. My narcish stepdaughters here in California love to use the “don’t get offended but…”. So I’m not just subjected to character assassination, I’m also told how I should feel ahead of time.

  8. Oh, and sorry about misspelling Shieldmaiden.* I almost typed Iron Maiden, so I guess that would have been worse? But my grammatical faux pas did start a bit of hope… that you’ll avoid “The Evil That Men Do” so she doesn’t “Run to the Hills.”

    So if you need any advice on this, HG, you can book a consultation with me, taking into consideration Central Standard Time. I will be happy to do that for you… reveal the needed requirements to make this relationship most successful… from the female perspective, of course. 😊

    For her, I hope the folks at church don’t ask “what’s a Shieldmaiden” when I add her to the prayer list.

    I’m only teasing. You know that I’m a hopeless romantic full of hope. And I’m aware that this will only be what you give it be.
    Give wisely, my advisor… my friend. ❤

    Sincerely… I wish you the best here, HG.

  9. I was eating breakfast in Nashville when I heard the most disgusting sound. I looked behind me to find an adorable Japanese couple. She was reading the newspaper as his lips were pressed against his spoon. He was sucking up the remaining milk from his cereal bowl. I had honestly never heard such a vulgar sound while dining out, yet I knew this horrible slurp was considered polite within the Japanese culture. I smiled at them both and turned around, suddenly unbothered by the noise.

    HG is right. Perception is everything.

    SMH is right, too! I’ve often wondered what this world would be like without someone to care for the sick… or to care in general? Certainly SMH relayed it well. Empathic people adhere to a standard that is vital for our cohesive existence.

    I happen to believe in a higher power. Many narcissists claim to be agnostic if not atheist, yet they masterfully utilize the probability that the rest of us will “do the right thing.” Without our compliance to the codes, they aren’t nearly as effective. We need each other… sure. Yet I contend that the narcissist needs the empath more so. Empaths could peacefully survive, assigning those with special skills and unique talents to the betterment of the group. No worry about somebody saying they added wood to the fire but instead be found taking a nap. Nope, not in Care-meglio-ville.

    Narcissists would likely all kill each other without our enforcement of peace and order. Plus, the gas stations would quickly run out of fuel without an empathic, endless supply. They’d be stuck in their tracks, stealing and cheating until all resources were extinguished. Yikes!
    We sure are needed, SMH.
    Regardless to whom sets forth “the rules,” basic human decency (my perspective of decency, HG 😉) surely helps this world run more smoothly. I have said it before… my dream is for us to find a way to maximize the talents of BOTH the empath and the narcissist… especially since I’m inherently attracted to narcs.. and their accents. So I have to believe in an improved coexistence… without all of the pain. And it can be done!

    I understand this disorder better now (thank you, HG) but I still refuse to believe that the narcissist isn’t capable of change… at least to some degree. At times, I’ve certainly had to go against my empathic nature to survive, or else this world would have devoured me years ago. So I hope to someday see a discussion on this (brace for it HG) … on this Hope for Change. Perhaps this Shieldmadion will inspire something? (I am not up to par on this new lady interest and would greatly appreciate a heads up from our favorite resident librarian on where to learn more? 💗)

    Speaking of school, after reading through all of these comments, I feel as though I should earn an honorary degree! The HG/SMH debate was fantastic and the exchange between MB and WS was heartwarming. Deep stuff folks. Many of the other comments here are also thought-provoking.

    (Side note: Though “we” might have deserved it when our own governor called us soft for cancelling school… in my neck of the woods, I do not know of ANY first-cousin marriages. Just sayin’ – Though I do realize it’s a thing. I felt compelled to let y’all know that it’s not entirely like that everywhere. Besides, pretty sure we learned it from The Royals – long ago. Still, it is NOT something that I personally see as a frequent occurrence. Gosh, I hope that’s not because I am personally involved and just don’t know it! 😮)

    Regardless, I still feel like I earned a degree in this comment section. So I’m hoping there will be a reception after the graduation ceremony. If so, can we have BBQ ribs and potato soup? I’m now okay with any slurping sounds those items might inspire. 😊
    Again, thanks to all for the education. ❤

    1. BurntKrispyKeen,

      Great post – and I agree with all this:

      “I have said it before… my dream is for us to find a way to maximize the talents of BOTH the empath and the narcissist…especially since I’m inherently attracted to narcs.. and their accents. So I have to believe in an improved coexistence… without all of the pain.”

      Personally, I don’t have much hope in the realm of romantic entanglements (and I agree with HG that it is dangerous for some to cling to hope in that arena). But even in the depths of my devaluation I could see glimpses of prosocial behaviour by my narc – but he couldn’t sustain them because due to chronic fuel shortages he had no choice but to try provoke negative fuel.

      It would take a very unique situation for it to work in an intimate relationship…but overall as narcissists’ behaviour becomes more transparent and less tolerable – they will be forced to endeavor to become more prosocial in how they interact with other members of society.

      And yes, on a personal note – damn narcs and their accents!!!

      1. Thank you, Who Cares. I understand your view, as it is the romantic involvement with a narcissist that was most devastating for me. Of course, having a narcissist as a parent would likely be the most damaging. (I am blessed to have escaped that dynamic, so I hope that I didn’t belittle the horrors of those who had to grow up with narcasism by saying that. But there is something about being entangled with one romantically that rips your heart out like nothing else.)

        I was able to reasonably manage other narcissists throughout my life…. a narcissist for a boss, a sister-in-law with very selfish ways, and a friend with a huge narcissistic streak (though she is actually probably more histrionic). Combined, they were easier to manage than the one romantic narcissist who turned my world upside-down.

        But it is fascinating how narcissists adjust their behaviors… how they’ll do to one, something they wouldn’t dare try on another. While this disorder is multifaceted, deeply-layered and misunderstood, I do believe that narcissists are like everybody else in that they’ll do whatever they can get away with. So much of temper tantrums/violent outbursts, etc. is a learned behavior. When people get away with something, they tend to do it again.

        I also believe more would be prosocial, as you say, if the consequences to their negative behaviors were greater. I want to believe that if we all stick together (especially empaths) and not allow them to do as they please, more would adhere… realize the benefits of catching more flies with honey.

        Who Cares, that was a great point you shared with me. I realize that change for any of us is a rare occurrence. But I have to believe it is possible.

        They might be wired differently, but they’re brains aren’t concrete… though they are hard-headed. Ha! 😃 But as we learn more and more about the plasticity of the brain… I have to hold onto hope. I had done a little research on the way a so-called sociopath’s brain “lights-up” under scans, and interestingly enough, some so-called normal people have brains that exhibited the same patterns. One was a professor who, while viewed as a bit distant/aloof, didn’t exhibit sociopathic behaviors… even though his brain scan did.

        So while I do believe that their brains ARE different, I think much of their behaviors comes from a deep-seated primal fear. (And that’s a whole other discussion.) But if they want to do better, they will. Because they can. They own that power.

        I ajways enjoy reading your posts, Who Cares. So thank you for responding to me. I know that few people believe in my hope.

        Narcissism isn’t a choice, but what one does with it is.

      2. BurntKrispyKeen,

        Yes, agreed: the romantic entanglement was the most devastating for me as well. And through it I learned that my mother is a narcissist; so I guess I could lay blame there and say it was most devastating because it set me up to interact with my narc down the road – but that isn’t truly how I feel. And although I can’t speak for others; I don’t feel that my experience was belittled in anyway by your comment. Also, I recognize that some would take the stance that there is absolutely no way one can work with a narcissist – at any level. The fact is we interact with them all the time in various ways.

        I would agree with you in saying that it is fascinating how narcissists adjust their behaviours…and will try to see what negative behaviours they can get away with (of course! especially if negative fuel is the most delicious.)
        We surely know that they are good at being ‘bad.’ Wouldn’t it be fascinating to see narcissists adjust their behaviours in a positive way? During the worst of my devaluation I recall my narc, surprising even himself (because he was forced to engage in prosocial behaviours), by the things he was doing and learning and he would say, in disbelief, reflecting on the activity at hand: “You know I’ve never done this for myself or anyone!” And so, while you couldn’t call it a rekindling of the golden period, he would still get a positive response from me acknowledging the truth of what he was saying.

        I think you’re right about the consequences to their behaviour – if they were more severe it would impact their behaviour – because, of course, they are often quite aware of how breaking the law or transgressing certain social boundaries will damage their facade. But in reflecting on my own narc: if the rewards for prosocial behaviour were also made to outweigh the hit of receiving negative fuel (my narc wasn’t even getting much negative fuel because I had nearly emotionally shut down) then they’ll take what they can get…all mine could get from me at the time was some positive reinforcement for prosocial tasks..

        So while ‘punishing’ them for bad behaviour sounds like a plan – negative attention for behaviours is just as favourable to them as positive attention – in fact, more favourable. Knowing what we know here from HG’s teachings it would be better to somehow only give positive fuel and starve them of negative fuel.

        Regarding plasticity of the brain – yes, I have been reading up on that and it is fascinating stuff!

        I really enjoy your posts as well BKK! And – cheers to hope where we can find it 🙂

      3. I just wanted to note that in my earlier comment to BKK – I was not in anyway suggesting that someone should experiment with eliminating negative fuel and only giving positive fuel within their entanglement…noooo.
        My observations with regard to my narc were from a situation that was akin to being in enforced isolation with my narc. It was not a good situation overall and I would *not* recommend it to anyone…I’m just able to objectively reflect back on it now.

      4. I understood how you meant that, WhoCares, in regard to positive/negative fuel. Unfortunately, I gave plenty of both. My narcissist was the most charming individual… such a gentleman. He would get angry but controlled it well. He never laid a harmful hand on me. I never saw him get physically violent, but I always sensed that he could.

        In regards to fuel, he was all over the map there. Sure, he’d take negative fuel all day long over being ignored. But if I was wounding him with my words… when I spewed that negative/challenge fuel with projectile force, he’d shut down and go silent… like a typical mid-ranger.

        He tried very hard to keep his liaisons secret from me, but as I discovered more, he’d bounce from being upset, trying to downplay my discovery, to soaking up my pain with an excitement that he struggled to hide.

        It was as if I could see my tears fill his empty soul.

        Once I started to realize his secrets, he’d bounce all over the place from sheer anger at my discovery to… the very next minute… simple glee at seeing how much I cared. If I discovered that he had visited his ex-girlfriend/attorney, he’d portray it as “all business.” If I cried because I searched to discover that he had spent time with her, he’d passionately kiss me, telling me that I was the only woman he wanted… the one… that she was only helping him with legal matters, nothing more. He claimed that he would NEVER consider going back to her as she made him miserable.

        He loved tears and grovelling, of course, but personal insults seemed to truly hurt him. IDK – it was odd, WhoCares. Sometimes he’d relish in a verbal lashing like I’d expect a greater would. Other times, he’d retreat. When he sent me his email exchanges between 30 plus women, I told him that I was relieved to know that my assumptions were right… that he was indeed a narcissistic sociopath. He replied, “Oh, honey.”

        When I told him that what usually happens in these cases is the women befriend each other and then turn on the man. I asked him what he would do if we women decided to all get together? He replied, “It would have to be a big room.”

        Yet, he’d retreat and whimper like a whipped pup if I insulted him or found a way to belittle his perceived superiority, especially if he was returning to attempt a hoover. I can’t remember what HG calls them, but he gave those little “test hoovers.” Then, he’d chuckle the next time a conflict occurred as if he was totally unbothered by anything I did or said, telling me that I could never make him jealous. But I could tell by his tiny microexpressions that he could indeed become jealous. Those millisecond glitches in that stone-cold face told me so.

        When his mask finally fell to the floor, he confessed that “people are just objects to be used,” I told him that I already knew his stance. He proclaimed that he was only trying to protect me from himself. He asked if I believed that he was capable of harming another… of causing death? I told him, “Potentially, yes.”
        He replied, “Smart girl.”

        I made so many mistakes, WhoCares.
        But I knew that there was no winning with him, because he’d never be authentic enough to show his vulnerabilities to me. I finally realized that we would never be able to grow.. to learn to trust… to ever share genuine love. Because he would never allow it. He was too busy trying to win a battle that only he was fighting.

        So sad.

      5. BurntKrispyKeen,

        Thank-you for telling me some of your story regarding your entanglement; I recall only reading bits and pieces here and there that you shared.

        Ah, infidelities…I’m sorry you endured that. Now I suspect that my narc must have unfaithful but he would have had to work it into his work/study/online habits etc. but there was no overt sign of it that I could see at the time. But he excels at being very secretive and compartmentalizing things. Now some things come to light that reveal he was cheating but I now that I understand how narcissism manifests itself I no longer care. (In fact, towards the end of our relationship I suspected him of doing so despite having no proof and I truly didn’t care because I had mostly withdrawn all physical attention and emotional resources from him.) I know that I could likely consult with HG and put all the pieces of the puzzle together but I don’t need to – it is enough to know that it’s likely – and the reason is: because he is a narcissist. I won’t waste any further time and money on figuring him out.

        You’re right: it is sad. And I made so many mistakes as well…at least we have the capability to learn from them, right BKK?

      6. WhoCares, if you don’t mind my asking… what in particular about your romantic entanglement with your narcissist helped you to learn/discover that your mother was also one?

      7. That’s kind of a long story but I will try to shorten it. I always thought my mom was the way she was due to the circumstances of her life – and health. I had always had a tense relationship with her in some regards but lived my own life (often out of town from her) so it was something I couldn’t see until I started making the connections between similarities in my narc’s behaviour and her behaviours.

        When I was trying to pick up the pieces of my life following the end of the formal relationship with my ex, I made a choice that put me in close contact with her (I recall that I felt like I had ‘gone from the frying pan into the fire’ but ignored the feeling because I was so stressed and didn’t believe I had a lot of options given the fallout of my entanglement.) But what happened was like an instant repeat of what I just come out of: I was getting the exact same messages from her that I got from my narc (when things were not going right). Essentially that everything was all my fault, I was to blame for things not working – and that I needed to do more. I realized that only these two people in my life were the ones making me feel this way – when *I* knew and *others* around me knew that the reality was that I was working my *ass* off to set things right. There were other red flags but I was too worn down to see them. But one day I put my suspicions to the test and I could see that I was right…so I went no contact and consulted with HG later to confirm that she is a narcissist. I still didn’t believe it (I had to email HG to again tell me her school and cadre because of my disbelief). And I know that others would not believe me because her facade, from a certain perspective, is so awesome.
        I would even entertain maintaining extremely limited contact with her because I still care – but I realized that I am much too damaged to endure any attempts on her part to provoke negative fuel. I am still no contact with her but have ways of finding about her health etc., and would step in if she absolutely had no one else.
        But, honestly, she’ll get better quality fuel from using the fact that her daughter doesn’t speak to her and garnering whatever sympathy she can get from that by choosing to tell other people whatever she wants about me because I really do not care. So really, I am doing her a favour.

        Sorry about the lengthy response BKK!

      8. Oh, no need to apologize to ME, WhoCares, regarding a lengthy response! At one time, I was fearful that HG was going to start charging me rent. 💰 Sometimes I take up way more real estate than necessary to get my point across. So know that you do way better there than I do.

        I like your style, WhoCares and have long felt that you and I were kindred spirits. Expressing ourselves… well, it’s what we empaths do. I love the way you take the time to explain such in a way that reads easily and is always, I might add, well-written. 💖

        Anyway, back on point…. I can only imagine what you went through and how difficult that discovery must have been. When HG confirmed my suspicions, that my narcissist was indeed a narcissist… I was relieved but at the same time, I hated to hear it! I knew what it meant.

        I knew that little bit of *hope* I was so desperately holding onto to would have to be tucked away. That was a hard adjustment for someone like me to let go of hope. Actually, I didnt let “go” of it entirely… just put it on the proverbial shelf where there would be plenty of random empathic IPSSs to look after it for me.

        Now, it seems to me as if you have long been a strong, independent woman. I’m sorry that you have had to endure two up-close-and-personal narcissists in your life. But I can’t say that they took from you what you think they did. I think they helped to mold you into this, wise, well-balanced, eloquent woman. At least that’s I how see it. (And I have already established in other posts that I find my perspective to be spot-on, so I’m pretty sure you can hang your hat on my assessment. 😆)

        Thank you for sharing, WhoCares. 😊

      9. Dear BurntKrispyKeen,

        I like your style too!

        Thank-you for taking the time to write that; you have no idea the weight your words carry at this particular time…when I first started reading the blog your comments were some of the main ones that drew me in to want to join the conversation. I have found your perspective one that I admire – and often share.

        “That was a hard adjustment for someone like me to let go of hope. Actually, I didnt let “go” of it entirely… just put it on the proverbial shelf where there would be plenty of random empathic IPSSs to look after it for me.”

        This made me chuckle – it is a good thing that we can still find things to feel hope over – even if we have to suspend it for a while and in spite of having our hopes dashed to the ground – it is, in part, what makes us the resilient empaths that we are.

        Your words are very timely; I so needed to hear them…I’m currently at a juncture where a real opportunity to improve my situation has presented itself (in the midst of life also throwing more than one curve ball) and I’m terrified. I don’t have a really good track record for ‘starting over’ and I’m not sure what energy I’ll have let if this doesn’t work…I literally feel like I’m back on the road that lead me to first escaping my narc and thoughts of “I hope I don’t die trying.” I don’t mean literal death but I’m terrified of committing to something in the event that I let people down – because (thanks to my narcs having ingrained this so deep) ‘letting people down’ is worse than death. At least if you’re dead, you have a good excuse for letting people down!

        Despite my fears, I still went ahead and put forth my best bid for this opportunity – because if I didn’t at least try, I would be letting myself down. (It’s an opportunity to use my writing skills as well – so I’ll take that compliment!)

        Thank-you for your words BKK, I greatly appreciate your contributions here. <3

      10. Ooohh… I have a feeling that you are about to embark on a very exciting adventure! 😊 That fear… that self-doubt is actually a good thing. We all share that, but it’s how we allow it to manifest that most matters.

        A lady of your character will utilize that fear as a driving force to succeed. I have no doubt of this, WhoCares.

        Your communication style is lovely; your writing skills are a gift.

        Girl, you got this! Knock it out of the park and do keep us posted on how far it goes. Best wishes to you, WhoCares! ❤

      11. BurntKrispyKeen,

        You’re right; it could be an adventure! And sometimes I think I could really use *less* adventure…but in many ways the timing is right (or as right as it’s ever going to be) and I feel like I’m in more control of how this adventure pans out 😉

        Thank-you for your well wishes!

        By the way, I haven’t been able to keep up on many threads – but I loved your story of Ruby! Very insightful into her nature – and yours <3

    2. BurntKrispyKeen
      These threads cover the new dynamic and check out HG’s instagram, as well. There are 467 comments on bridging the gap and 146 on ice cold with Alex.

      Use control+F or command+F (mac) and type: new dynamic into the search bar on the upper right and then use the keyword: ShieldMaiden.
      That should make it easier for you to find the relevant comments.

      https://narcsite.com/2019/01/15/bridging-the-gap-2/#comments
      https://narcsite.com/2019/01/19/ice-cold-with-alex-3/#comments

      Use keyword: new dynamic on this thread (106 comments).
      https://narcsite.com/2019/01/23/the-asylum-of-the-grotesque-3/#comments

      1. K, I haven’t seen your knitted mittens around on IG. I’ve been keeping my eyes peeled for you!

      2. MB
        Ha ha ha…I am so focused on learning cognitive narcissism that I am neglecting the IG. Maybe I will make an appearance in the near future.

      3. Thank you, ma’am. Please know that your instruction is much appreciated. I will definitely check out those links.

        Before I was able to have your above guidance, I did see where MB commented on two wine glasses. So I went to Instagram. I’m not on social media, so I was pleased to see that I was able to read the comments as an outside observer.

        I must say – it was a bit of a guilty pleasure… peeking in on a new romance as it unfolds. Instagram is pretty cool. I felt like Gladys Kravitz without having to hide behind the curtains.

        I must add, Shieldmaiden seems like a lovely lady… noticeable even through the tiny snippets shared. (Or maybe I just sense such, knowing HG wouldn’t be so excited if she weren’t someone special.) But what guy wouldn’t be excited over a leggy Norwegian blonde?

        I have so many thoughts twirling in my head about this budding romance, especially knowing this union is unfolding between an empath and a greater. But my posts are long enough as is, so I’ll spare you.

        Again, thank you for your help K. This type of service makes me wish you were available IRL. ❤

      4. My pleasure BurntKrispyKeen
        IRL is so much better. Nothing beats a cuppa and a good conversation in real time. I think HG is infatuated over the leggy Norwegian blonde’s special fuel output, as well as, her character traits and residual benefits.

        It will very interesting to see how the romance all unfolds.

      5. I agree, K… There is no doubt that Shieldmaiden is impressing him with more than just her physical attributes.
        While I think that HG still intends to adamantly protect his identity, I’m pretty certain that I feel a little itch… of HG wanting to pop out…
        Hello World!

        Perhaps if he ever does, it will inspire the rest of us… and we can just have a good old-fashioned reunion, conversing over that warm cup of coffee (or hot tea for me)…. or better yet, a get-together with a little bourbon sipping. 🍻
        I would love to meet y’all IRL. 💖

        HG, in part, is it hard to not want to share with Shieldmaiden this empire that you’ve built? I mean… when you see her books, is it hard to suppress the desire of wanting to say, “Well, darling, I’m quite the accomplished author myself?”

      6. I assume you mean when I see The Shieldmaiden’s library of books (as she is not a writer at least not in terms of profession, she does write and does so most eloquently) do I want to tell her that I am an author? Absolutely, I have to bite my tongue, especially when I see a copy of ‘Fuel’ tucked between Wuthering Heights and the Count of Monte Cristo.

      7. Seriously HG, she has a copy of Fuel within her collection?
        If so she knows “of you” yet “knows not she is with you”.

      8. HG, were you the first person to use the term “Fuel” as opposed to narcissistic supply?

        I ask because I have heard it referenced by many others including psychiatric professionals.

      9. Yes, I was. It is of course entirely gratifying to have others use my lexicon, so long as they do not claim to have devised the lexicon themselves.

      10. Not only the lexicon, but the concept of ‘fuel’ is completely unique, and it is ‘fuel’ that underpins Narcissistic behaviour. HG is the world’s leading pioneer and expert on Narcissism.

      11. Ha! 😄 HG, pardon the expression, but I bet you’d shit a brick sideways if you saw one of your books in her collection. 💩

        But seriously, when I saw that stack of books, I sensed that she’d be the type of lady impressed by your delivery… your gift of conveyance. Let’s just say that I’m sure she finds herself “transported” when you pepper her with your verbal blandishments. So, I had already imagined how many times you’ve had to bite that silver tongue of yours!

        No doubt… it is taking extreme control for a greater to resist the urge to brag about accomplishments in an area he is trying to keep hidden. I have so many thoughts here, HG. There are so many layers to peel back. In all due respect, do you think you’re ready?

        Ready for what it takes?

      12. Ha ha, I would not shit a brick sideways if I saw one of my works in The Shieldmaiden’s collection, it would entertain me.

        It takes a degree of control to not reveal my accomplishments, however, I am blessed owing to the fact that I have plenty of other accomplishments that I can tell her about and show her, I have many strings to my bow.

      13. Oh, and HG… I had once heard that the term “with due respect” can be taken wrong by the Brits. I’m not sure if that is correct, so I switched to “in due respect,” hoping that you would know that I was trying to relay my question in a respectable manner, considering the delicate nature of this new dynamic.

        Am I making any sense here? Do the folks from the UK find that phrase facetious or insulting, or was I misinformed?

        Or, better yet… overthinking like a typical empath??? 😨

      14. In Britain if you say ‘with respect’ or ‘with due respect’ it generally means ‘I am about to say something you will not like/be insulting.”

      15. MB
        I’ve always taken ‘bless your heart’ as a passive aggressive ‘you’re too stupid to respond to’ (with a mental pat to the top of the head). Is that correct?

      16. Yes NA. “Bless your heart” or “Bless his heart or hers” is very much passive-aggressive. That’s why I said a scathing remark can be negated by using the phrase. It doesn’t really. It can also be used in a condescending way. I don’t use the phrase except jokingly.

      17. Bless her heart. 😂 JK, I’m trying to learn some passive aggressiveness instead.

      18. MB, I think the first lesson in badassery K is gonna give you will be to quit quoting Spongebob lol.

      19. Sweetest Perfection
        Ha ha ha…yeah, quoting Sponge Bob might not be a good idea when you are in the Bad Lands trying to look tough.

      20. Ha ha, I can picture a sketchy bar in the middle of nowhere in the South full of bikers and thugs and cutie pie MB quoting Sponge Bob. I’m sure they would love her empathic cuteness, but not sounding very badass to me. MB, you are adorable, you don’t need to change to badass!

      21. SP, I guess I have a long way to go in the badassery department! Hopefully K is up for the challenge.

      22. MB
        Perfect, we will start with How to Lose the Guilt in Three Easy Steps and How to Be a Wise-ass before proceeding to Moral Flexibility and Rule Breaking.

      23. K, I’ve already started on the Moral Flexibility 😜 If you can teach me how to lose the guilt, I’ll pay good money!

      24. MB
        Perfect, I don’t have time to debate morality. And my lessons are free, we will start with compartmentalization and work our way up from there.

      25. MB
        Ha ha ha…pack some brass knuckles (we won’t be using them; it’s just for show). We will use piloerection to appear intimidating and aggressive.
        Fake it till you make it.

      26. Sweetest Perfection
        Ha ha ha….thanks for the laugh! I am either straight up fuel or challenge fuel.

      27. NarcAngel
        Yep. You’ve nailed “bless your heart.” And “bless his/her heart” is the same

      28. HG,
        Have any of your former or current sources suspected you as the author of this site? Or does anyone outside of the good doctors and family know but still maintain your secret? If not, your secretive skills on such a large scale are truly amazing.

      29. I have no doubt, HG, that you have plenty of accomplishments in which to impress the new lady.

      30. BurntKrispyKeen
        Ha ha ha…thanks! K was denied and someone already had theletterafterj so I had to settle for theletterbeforel.

    3. Narcissists would likely all kill each other without our enforcement of peace and order.

      Question. Whom do you think is actually running society? Clue; it’s not the Es and nor are they about maintaining the balance either. The most Es can do is to smooth it out at the edges and restore some parity but usually only at a micro-level and not at a macro one.

      This is why HG’s asserting NPD is at 1:6 is so VERY significant.

      1. With all due respect (😉) I disagree, Renarde. Of course, I was trying to make a point in a facetious manner… trying to make my imaginary village better than Fuletania… or wherever HG was going to put us non-blondes.

        Obviously, I agree with you, Renarde, in the fact that many narcissists are very talented and capable. And since we all have narcissistic qualities, I wouldn’t be surprised if HG’s estimation of NP @ 1:6 isn’t close to accurate. Absolutely, we all benefit from CERTAIN narcissistic characteristics.

        I wouldn’t be here seeking HG’s advice if I didn’t respect him. But I do disagree with the statement that “the most Es can do is to smooth it out at the edges and restore some parity but usually only at a micro-level and not at a macro one.” – Renarde

        I know MANY empathic men and women who are quite skilled and successful, who exhibit strong leadership in micro and macro aspects of life. I sense many of those talented folks are followers of this blog. I truly “see” such strength and intelligence in these men and women… in my profession, in my personal life, and most certainly here at Narcsite.

        I “love” all people, Renarde. So if my tongue-in-cheek addition to the SMH/Tudor debate insulted you… all I can say is… bless your heart… I sure didn’t mean it that way.

      2. Hey there. No, not offended at all (those days are long gone that I would vent openly) and I relish the opportunity to really get to the heart of what’s going on.

        It strikes me that there is a very good opportunity for an intelligent debate here which I would like the opportunity to carry on?

        I need to define what I mean by ‘micro’ and ‘macro’ and I’ll start with macro first. Macro is the ability to set policy at a national and global level. These are laws, rules, policies and procedures that bind us all to the ‘straight and narrow’. For example, a recent case in the media had an extremely strong medical case attested to by numerous Drs, have his disability claim refused. It hit the headlines. What on earth is actually happening? It’s meddling.

        I place myself (as an ex scientist and engineer and more importantly an educator) as an empath who has worked for decades as a professional.
        You do indeed see normals and some emps in positions of ‘micro’ power. they can effect change but only on a restricted, local level. That is not ‘real’ power; it’s the smoothing out effect. or to put it another way; the parable of the three wise monkeys.
        Again, I want to be clear on the 1:6 stat. It is my perception that this is not about traits, it’s about people who are suffering from NPD. That is very sigificant as it means ~17% hold no affective empathy.

        How can society effectively stand by and utterly ignore monumental abuses of power. Ref: Various Catholic Church scandals, endemic corruption in the highest levels of government (Chilcot, Iraq 2 and the ‘Dodgy Dossier’). Hell, even Trump getting into power. I postulate this; society itself displays utterly avoidant behaviours. That’s human nature itself. I do it. I know I do it. We all do it so a certain extent.

        Most Ns can never be aware of their own true nature. Genuinely perceiving themselves to be ‘decent’. They hold micro and sometimes macro positons of power within the system itself. The system is all of us of course with set models of behaviour so that the system always rights itselfs. or as I wonder; folds back in on itself. Just like a MMR will do as they desperately try to prove to their conscience that they are ‘good people’ Most do a very good job of hiding it from themselves and from other external observers.

        It’s the Greaters we should be worying about because some of them are operating as ’eminence grises’ and wielding the true power behind the throne. Utterly unencumbered by empathy and being not only content with this but deploying manipulations with a long term plan and methodology, it’s they would should be concerning us. Distraction.

        Alas with your last phrase, that you love all? I hope that my SEM credentials are fully attested to now (good god, that’s an open invitation!) that as one E to another, I cannot agree with you. I am free to love who I please. It’s not a yoke around my neck.
        I truly belive in the concept of unconditional love but when it becomes clear that I am being abused, that my precious gift is scorned than I can and will withdraw. Some of that love will linger but it becomes very hard to love your own abuser when it becomes so blatantly obvious. Love indeed can be condiotnal on behaviours. To love blindly is not a great place to be in. Love can and sometimes will die. I do know that I hold unconditional love for my children and that will never die.
        I can feel and empathise with NPD sufferers but it doesn’t mean to say that I am required to help or heal them in any way.
        I think this is a really important point as it helps with our own healing.

        Fundamentally, this is why ‘conscious raising’ is so important. It’s already happening thank God. Hopefully, it will continue.

      3. I understand your original post better now, Renarde. Thank you for taking the time to explain in such detail. You offered many valid situations where our world has been affected by this abuse of power. Know that I stand with you in your concerns.

        I still see empaths as having a greater role in the betterment of this world, however, even on a corporate, law-making level. But you are correct. If I’m understanding you right… in that most highly empathic individuals don’t have the guts for the nitty-gritty dirty work that’s often required… I agree.
        It just ain’t our thing.
        But it can be.

        On only a minimal-micro-level, I had an encounter that represents this dog-eat-dog world. Last summer, my neighbors were riding bikes down my winding, country road with their family dog tagging along. To make a long story short, the neighbor’s dog came all the way up my driveway in effort to continue to bark at my dog. My poor dog, Ruby, kept sitting down, turning her back as if to say, “I dont want to fight you.” The neighbor’s dog wouldn’t back up, coming deeper into my yard

        I ordered my dog onto the porch. When the neighbor’s dog got close to my porch, Ruby stood her ground. So… the little bitch came up onto my porch and tried to bite my dog. Then it was game on! It was like in the movie, The Matrix. Ruby and the bitch went up into the air and locked-up tight. The neighbors were screaming for me to get my dog. Their kids were all crying. The neighbor took my broom and started hitting my dog, but Ruby was too focused to notice. My neighbors were frantic, turning on my water hose to spray the dogs, which was ineffective, completely unnoticed by the brawling animals. Teeth seemed to be everywhere and blood was a slingin’. Out of everyone in the yard, who was the one brave enough to get in between two fighting dogs?

        Me… the emotional empath.
        And let me add that it took a bit of courage as I thought my odds of avoiding a few bites would be slim to none. But I calmly walked up to the baring-teeth canines and broke up the fight. I got bloody in the process, but the job got done.

        Of course, once freed…. they were right back at it again. And let me add that this girl-fight was more intense than any two males I’ve ever seen. I wanted to let the dogs fight it out a bit, as I knew that once my dog had the aggressive dog pinned down… in the death hold, with teeth tightly around her neck, that it would earn Ruby a bit of respect. (“Don’t come up my long driveway and attack me on my porch with my owner standing right there!”) But everybody was screaming and crying. The little kids were obviously being traumatized, so I got in there again… did the job that nobody else wanted to do. And I like to think that I did it with the precision of a narcissist. Thank. You. Very. Much. 😆😞

        Definitely not a macro-example… but I believe that everyone is capable of stepping up to the plate. Of course, narcissists WOULD survive without us. I was only teasing in my previous post. Back when we humans were trying to establish civilization, I’d say most of our ancestors were high on the narcissistic scale… probably a 1:2 ratio then… We sorta had to be to survive, to a certain extinct.

        I have more to say on the “love” topic too, but I gotta get back to work. Still, I will get back with you, Renarde. It was interesting reading your post, and I look forward to learning more about your views.

        Until I can return, have a good day (or evening if that suits your current time zone). Take Care…

      4. If I’m understanding you right… in that most highly empathic individuals don’t have the guts for the nitty-gritty dirty work that’s often required… I agree.

        Possibly a combination of not having the stomach for it and also being mired down in their personal lives because they are being abused. A lot of Es will have children, I’d suspect as a ratio it’s higher than the normals group itself. That is just speculation but it’s an intriguing one, no? Out of that, one can also draw more conclusions as to why an E would be reluctant to get involved.

        Can everyone step up to the plate? I don’t think so, sadly. Not everyone. I think a certain school would find it really hard actually. Let’s ponder which school that might be…

        Looking forward to hearing your views on love there.

      5. Renarde

        “Can everyone step up to the plate? I don’t think so, sadly. Not everyone. I think a certain school would find it really hard actually. Let’s ponder which school that might be…”

        Which school do you believe would find it really hard?

      6. Oh, and I realized that you were actually referring to NPD (the disorder) in your ratio – 1:6 / 16.6666… %. My “N” must have been auto-kicked out of there as I see that I only listed NP. I didn’t mean to just assume narcasism or high narcissistic traits in general… because God only knows how high that percentage is?!

        TTYL ☺

      7. Renarde,

        I think that it is an oversimplification to say the Ns are running our society and the most Es can do is to smooth it out at the edges at a micro-level. We can’t forget that majority of people are actually Normals, some are highly narcissistic and those narcissistic traits that are still on the healthy side that helped get them to leadership roles. Ns are probably overrepresented in the macro level of politics but that doesn’t mean that they are running society. Society will not function if we do not have honest law enforcers, teachers, doctors etc. who really care. Trump may be my president and he is a narcissist but he only affects my life marginally. I mostly depend on other members of my society to have a good quality of life. I depend on the nurse and pediatrician who take care of my kids; the empathic day care owner who watches my kids some days of the week, etc. Also, the Ns in politics are the higher functioning one, a lot of Ns are so debilitated with their personality disorder that they end up living lives that are basically just wasted.
        Also we cannot say with full certainty that empaths do not make an impact in the macro level as we do not personally know a lot of these historical figures or leaders to be able to really asses whether they are empaths or not. Rosa Parks, Gandhi, Malala etc. have narcissistic traits that are high enough for them to believe that what they did matters significantly (at least to themselves before people saw what they did) but are we to say that the narcissistic trait was high enough to be NPD? I don’t think so.

      8. We can’t forget that majority of people are actually Normals, some are highly narcissistic and those narcissistic traits that are still on the healthy side that helped get them to leadership roles.

        They have N traits but they still have affective empathy which will create ET and reign in malignant behaviours. This will effectively ‘cap’ them in their career at some point.

        Ns are probably overrepresented in the macro level of politics but that doesn’t mean that they are running society.

        They aren’t: the Greaters are. Middles just think they are. A difference.

        Society will not function if we do not have honest law enforcers, teachers, doctors etc. who really care.

        This is a dangerous concept. People do things largely because they are afraid of the repercussions of NOT doing their job. Most toe the party line. Yes, there are genuine honest and decent people out there but they are in the minority. Most people just do ‘enough’.

        Trump may be my president and he is a narcissist but he only affects my life marginally.

        Yeah…Good luck with that one!

        I mostly depend on other members of my society to have a good quality of life. I depend on the nurse and pediatrician who take care of my kids; the empathic day care owner who watches my kids some days of the week, etc.

        I’d say, there is a great risk of putting your faith in the wrong people.

        Also, the Ns in politics are the higher functioning one

        Agreed by the very definition of the concept.

        Also we cannot say with full certainty that empaths do not make an impact in the macro level as we do not personally know a lot of these historical figures or leaders to be able to really asses whether they are empaths or not. Rosa Parks, Gandhi, Malala etc. have narcissistic traits that are high enough for them to believe that what they did matters significantly (at least to themselves before people saw what they did) but are we to say that the narcissistic trait was high enough to be NPD? I don’t think so.

        I think it’s irrelevant if those figures reference are N, norm or E. This are displaying the concept of affective empathy even if they do not possess it.

        There was a discussion on here that was fascinating about what we perceive morality as. I don’t want to rehash it. Largely, most of the time, society does what it expected of it rather than doing it because it’s the right thing to do.

        This concept nearly broke me, which is probably why I didn’t chip in even though I wanted to. That there are so many people out there who are simply in it for as much as they can get and everyone else can go fuck themselves. It was like nails down a blackboard as it jarred utterly with my own perception of doing the right thing, using a moral compass, being decent, helping others with no thought for oneself. Justice.

        Took me months to get that one. In the end, I realised the way to end this cognitive dissonance, remove this prison I was in, was to simply to walk out of the door and accept it as fact. Strangely, the door had been open all along…

      9. Renarde
        It is all about the facade, the ultimate manipulation that allows these people to function in places of power. It is fucking brilliant.

      10. Renarde
        Enlightenment is blinding, however, very few people are enlightened so they are completely fooled by the facade.

        The BTK killer was a family man, went to church, was a scout leader and worked full time at ADT Security Services. People were shocked when he was arrested for murdering ten people. I think he will be portrayed on the next season of Mindhunter (netflix).

      11. The damage to my eyes is slowly being repaired. Tricksy though, that one!

        I utterly take our point on BTK and of course it’s all just going on under the surface. Bundys’ another one. UK had Dennis Neilson of course and the Yorkshire Ripper evaded capture for years.

      12. Renarde, I might not be the best person for you to debate! Sometimes I don’t even make sense to myself! I meant to say that I left the “D” out of NPD not the “N” and I should have stated … to a certain extent* not extinct. Not sure if that was autocorrect or some sort of Freudian slip as I do wonder if our “ways” will eventually cause our own extinction? I just wish I could put my typos on the endangered species list. (Pretty sure my multi-tasking ways don’t help to improve that matter.)

        And I know it probably seemed like I went way off course with my doggy story. 🐕 You’re probably thinking, “That’ll be the last time I question that rambling chick on anything she says!” 😯

        But I had a point in mind. I really did… Even a docile dog who doesn’t wish to fight will easily engage once the circumstances are right. I think that’s the possibility of both the empath and the narcissist… that we are capable to behave outside of our ordinary when needed. So despite my inability to successfully relay my sarcastic tendencies through text, I really wasn’t trying to come off as E vs. N and we’re gonna stomp their…
        Well, maybe I was a little. 😔
        But how I truly feel is… an exclusive society of both would likely survive just fine without the other. We both would adapt and adopt new behaviors accordingly. The world just wouldn’t be as effective or exciting without the mix.

        [I have a lot of thoughts about love and will address that when I can focus more as it’s been a long, busy day. But I certainly understand your views there and respect the healthy way you approach matters of the heart. So please give me an extension on that discussion? ☺]

      13. Hi Renarde,

        You have raised a lot of interesting points, and I agree with some of them.

        “They have N traits but they still have affective empathy which will create ET and reign in malignant behaviours. This will effectively ‘cap’ them in their career at some point.”

        I am having a hard time agreeing with you on this one. I will agree on the part that narcissists have an edge in politics over empaths because they are unique that their disorder actually uses negative attention to fuel them whereas negative attention/press/criticisms would be problematic or painful for empaths and cause them to disengage. But I believe that there are empaths who could be so invested and passionate about something that they believe is more important than themselves, a greater good, that will make them choose to sacrifice themselves and stay and keep fighting. And if it is meant to be, meaning the circumstances are just perfect, that empathy could succeed and get into power in the macro stage.

        To a certain extent, empathy can cap or put limitations into what we are willing to do. Myself for example, since I am now relating almost everything to narcissism, I was imagining if I was at the wagon train expedition of the Donner party, if I would be willing to eat the remains of my loved ones to survive. My answer is no. I would rather starve and die. The dignity of the remains of my loved ones are too important for me, more important than my own survival. So in that hypothetical instance, the empathy or ET has limited my ability to survive. It doesn’t mean that I will not survive. I will probably try hard to find other ways to eat and maybe I will make it. But my chances are reduced. But I can see myself killing someone who would try to harm my loved ones in order to protect them. I don’t think that I would even think twice. I might even fry that person after killing that person and me and my loved ones can eat him. In that instance, my empathy is suspended because in my mind, killing is necessary for the greater good.

        My father for example, I believe that he was an empathy, he was a sniper during WW2 and he killed a lot of Nazis when they were defending Italy. He actually pointed his gun and killed as many as he could. He killed a Nazi sniper as well who was shooting at them. He said that they had to go through a dark tunnel full of dead bodies and they were literally stepping on the dead bodies. When they came out he realized that one of them was missing so he went back and found this 18 yr old soldier just crying and looked like he lost his mind so my dad carried him out of that tunnel. I think those were moments were an empath was able to suspend E.T. and commit acts that were not empathic in order for the greater good to prevail.

        I just don’t believe that there is a limitation to what a person can achieve when that person really puts his mind and heart to it. But again, this is probably just my E.T. talking.

        I think I have other thoughts that I want to add but I need to go.

        Also, I would like to ask, what is ‘conscious raising’?

      14. Thank you for you comment.

        But I’m going to disagree. Any area in the workplace is part of the system itself. The system always folds back to protect itself; kind of like a hive mind. This is part of the reason that why a few years ago, positive discrimination was all the rage. Get quotas for minorities such as non-whites/women etcs. Don’t want to debate the right’s and wrongs of PD here though.

        I think there are two things here; what we wish the world to be – a Utopian paradise where a beggar on the streets has the same chance of becoming President as an Ivy League graduate and what the reality of the system is. The notion that with a little bit of hard work and application, we can achieve anything is one that FDR was largely responsible for in the depression of the ’30s. It also illustrates perhaps the difference in thinking between the US and the UK.

        The limitation is not what we can perceive we can do in our heads it’s what others’ allow us to do. Someone is always in control.

        Empaths whilst by our nature are very easily mannipulated will often bite back and hard against another who tries to make them cross their morale code. There are exceptions to this which are perfectly illustrated in the Empath poll with DE/DLS’s coming out in extraordinarily high numbers.

        Political office is rarely about how ethically sound someone is but how unethically sound someone is. Or to put it another way, how easy it is to blackmail someone. If you can blackmail them; you control their sorry arses.

        It’s really quite difficult to get an Empath to do something which would warrant being a blackmail risk so that too will be a driver in if they are selected to run for office. There are also other factors such as the ‘Old Boys Network’ which are at play.

        That’s why it is so hard for Empaths to get into these top areas and affect real change. Even if they could, they would literally be the ‘lone sheep’.

        Sorry for typo on conscious raising, should be ‘consciousness raising’. This is things such as #metoo – big ideas which spread at grassroots level. So an example is of course this site where it’s being screamed out that 1 in 6 people are narcs.

      15. Renarde
        I understand your argument and see much truth in it. I do wonder, however, how the culture difference here in the US affects it. I suspect, although I could be wrong, that Americans are more oppositional by nature than the British. That we are often more distrusting of government and any leaders or bosses. And that we cling very stubbornly to our own beliefs and ways of life, with little regard to others opinions. That is certainly how people are where I live. Narcs may be in power and making the rules, but we are the ones who chose whether or not to follow them. And very often we chose not.

      16. I take your point on that there may well be differences between the US and the UK mentalities.

        I’m not sure I am following the ‘very often we don’t follow the rules’ as there would be anarchy? Surely?

      17. Renarde
        As to the comment that very often we don’t follow the rules, I was referring to the common practice of viewing laws more like guidelines – suggestions more than actual rules. While many people may abide by all laws of which they are aware, I doubt the majority do. Certainly not here where I live.

        For instance, I would consider myself a very law abiding person. The maximum speed limit on most roads here is 55 mph. I routinely drive up to 70-72 in many places. In my county, the sheriff isn’t going to risk alienating registered voters by giving speeding tickets.
        Bootlegging alcohol (purchasing alcohol is illegal here) is left alone. Illegal cock fighting goes on, illegal drug sales, illegal gambling of all kinds. Basically we do what we want in our county and thumb our nose at laws that come from Frankfort (our state capital).

        Further many states resent federal laws and rules from Washington. They may be enforced, but if they can be evaded, they will be by many. “What does the government in Washington know about what’s best for our situation anyway?” is often the point of view. And it is a true one, because the United States is so large and diverse, with so many totally different mini cultures and geographical differences. A law that works well in Miami, Florida may be totally stupid in rural Nebraska. And if it is, I guarantee you that many Nebraskans will ignore that law, if possible.

        I guess the bottom line is this: 1. Do you believe this law is important? Or 2. Do you believe something really bad will happen to you if you break this law?
        If you answer yes to either of those, then you will probably follow the law, but if you don’t? Why follow rules/laws that are stupid and have no real consequence if you break them? That doesn’t make sense to a lot of people.

        Does this result in anarchy? I don’t think so. Maybe you would. I do believe it results in a lot of independence, personal freedom and personal responsibility.

      18. Dear Windstorm

        Thank you for your clarification on your own culture. I honestly hadn’t thought that ideology had become so entrenched. What you describe is un-good and I’m sure you can see that? I do not mean this to sound as if I’m judging, I’m not but I am asking you to step outside of the narrative and consider a few differing scenarios.

        Fact of the matter is, a lot of laws are actually quite sensible when you get down to brass tacks. Most reasonable people accept the rule of law because it makes sense.

        Take speeding. I have been known to have got the odd ticket -all discharged (I hasten to add) because I learned my lesson; it was dangerous.

        When I got caught; I was annoyed because my speeding fines were very much 34/35 in a 30 zone. All of them. I was annoyed with myself. But actually it was a really important lesson. The chances of life or death to a pedestrian who is hit by a car between 30 and 40 mph are life changing. Hit them at above 50 mph and they are fucked. Usually.

        That such a little difference, 1 mph could mean probably living but with permanent and critical damage is a very sobering thought indeed.

        If we apply this to your situation, where people are arbitrarily obeying laws because they know the Sheriff is bent; then you my friend, are teetering.

        Habeas corpus has long since been able to be applied. You are a whiskers’ width away from disaloution. Frightening.

        Anarchy is bubbling under the surface. If we cannot trust the people to enforce the will of the proletariat then we are really fucked.

        A vacuum always sucks in. Who will be sucked into the vortex next? I’m sure we have been here before….

        5

      19. Renarde
        No, I really don’t see a problem. And anarchy may well be bubbling under the surface. But that’s just the nature of a country that is populated by people and their descendants who left their home countries because they were dissatisfied with their government. It is only natural that these people will retain and teach their children to constantly question the government and defy it when needed.

        “If we cannot trust the people to enforce the will of the proletariat then we are really fucked.”

        I think we differ here on “will of the proletariat.” We dont necessarily see laws as expressing the will of all workers. Many laws are knee-jerk reactions resultant from a catastrophic event or result from an irrational or narrow-minded faction of congress who gained power long enough to enact them. And then there are the many laws who’s purpose no longer exists or address a problem not present in all areas.

        Back to the speeding laws. Your example of one mph making a life-changing difference in an accident may well be true in a highly urban area where many people are pedestrians. I, however, live in a very rural area where I can drive the roads everyday for months and never see a single pedestrian. I daily drive for many miles at a stretch and never see another car. Was the speed limit law created for such driving conditions- no. Blindly following laws that don’t apply to one’s current situation serves no one.

        Americans don’t really see the government as a benevolent representation of the people’s best interest. We see the government as a powerful force that must be constantly watched and monitored to keep it in line.

        “ Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom.” The government can never just be trusted implicitly, because it is composed of ordinary people like you and me. Ordinary people make mistakes, they misunderstand situations, they don’t always foresee consequences – and since that’s who makes up the government, it’s subject to these same shortcomings. Blindly following anyone or their rules and laws is quite frankly – unAmerican.

      20. WS, you said it beautifully. America is the land of the FREE and the home of the BRAVE! 🇺🇸

      21. Thank you, WhoCares! I think we just think very differently here in America than people do in other countries. Our system may scandalize them, but theirs would probably scandalize us, too! I can’t imagine living somewhere I was expected to blindly follow someone else’s rules. Skepticism and individual thought are far too ingrained in my character.

      22. Windstorm,

        “Skepticism and individual thought are far too ingrained in my character.”

        It’s definitely part of the Canadian identity too – we’re just happy to let our neighbors to the south have more attention for being that way 😉

      23. Many laws are knee-jerk reactions resultant from a catastrophic event or result from an irrational or narrow-minded faction of congress who gained power long enough to enact them.

        Yeah – we see that too. Some of the legislation (both real and proposed) coming out of the states is dreadful and shameful. Then again, you also are can be extremely progressive.

        As to speeding, the 30/40 mph zone is true wherever you are (unless the laws of physics have changed). I do take your point that the geography between the US and the UK is utterly different. However, the logical conclusion to your argument is that if I’m not being watched, it’s OK to break that law. Actually, ethically, it isn’t OK. Why bother having them in the first place?

        Problem with having a law enforcer, let’s call him Sheriff Bob in place who is not only bent as a nine bob note everyone knows he’s bent as well, is that Bob is following a different moral and ethical code.

        Bob likes doughnuts.

        Bob has a nephew called Cleetis. Cleetis is a LVN and one day, the target he had been drooling over for about a week goes missing. Everyone suspects Cleetis. Cleetis is indeed guilty.

        Cleetis buys off Bob with a couple of dozen Krispy Kremes. Bob frigs the murder investigation (why should he care, he’s been getting away with shonky shit for all of his life). Everyone knows, the town is heartbroken and there is not justice for the girl or her family.

        The town willfully turned a blind eye to the breaking of laws when it was in their best interests. Now that it isn’t; their uproar.

        Do you see my point? I’m sure that pretty much everyone has broken a law from time to time and most of us don’t get caught. That’s not the issue, it’s tolerating the corrupt ones in office. This is three wise monkeys and is part of how people who abuse get away with it.

      24. Renarde
        Corrupt politicians can be voted out. If the people in Sheriff Bob’s county don’t like his actions, they can and will vote him out. In such a case as you describe, the family would hit the news media. KY State Police will be called in.

        But for minor law breaking that the majority of people in the county don’t mind, it is ignored. But that’s the point. The majority of the people don’t mind. We run off general opinion. While 35mph may statistically seem safest, if anyone drove that slow on the open road, they would be a traffic hazard. Even people driving the speed limit are driving hazards, because people behind them get so frustrated and angry. Everyone will be passing them, some dangerously because of their frustration and more accidents will happen.

        Corrupt people in office are tolerated because the majority of what they do is what the majority of the people in their district want done. If that changes and people no longer want them, they are voted out.

      25. Corrupt people in office are tolerated because the majority of what they do is what the majority of the people in their district want done. If that changes and people no longer want them, they are voted out.,/em>

        I largely agree with this except it’s another example of the system folding back in on itself. What if the nest one is just as bad. And so on.

      26. Renarde.
        Then you vote him out and try another. It’s certainly not a perfect system, to be sure. It is very obnoxious to be stuck with an incompetent idiot until his term expires. I’m on a 12 hr car drive and can’t look it up, but didn’t Churchill have a good quote about democracy being a terrible flawed system except that it was better than all the other systems?

        Enjoyed talking with you. Hope you have a good day. I need to focus on the road.

      27. MB
        Ha, ha. It’s deer I have to watch out for. That’s who’s likely to be in my road!

      28. WS
        Exactly different perspectives AND moral flexibility, now who wants to go to a cock fight?

      29. Windstorm, I agree about the differences. The other difference – maybe connected – is that the US political system is extremely decentralized, which perhaps goes with the ethos of individualism that is much more prominent there than in the UK, where the system is very centralized (I live in both places). In the UK I am seen as very oppositional but really feel that I am just a normal American. I have problems because people do not understand my manner (very direct) or my way of being (do not ask me to do something that is a waste of my friggin’ time) and get annoyed when I question things. But I don’t care because I am American and couldn’t give two shits what anyone thinks 🙂

      30. Is anyone else concerned about Mommypino’s obsession with cannabalism? All I know is – I wouldn’t eat the pork rinds at her house, and those lamp shades might not be parchment……

      31. NA – you slay me!

        Wait – I wonder if I taste good with lentils..?

        PahahahHAha!

      32. Hahaha MB – you’re so right re: glitter in the teeth…glitter-free food would be the first preference – see; you have special defenses and didn’t even know it! Glitter Power!

      33. Whocares
        You probably taste OF lentils. Will you instruct that your ashes be scattered (over soup) at Tim Hortons?

      34. Hahaha NA,

        People already wonder what Timmy’s puts in their coffee to make it so ‘addictive’… now they’ll be wondering…’What’s that new seasoning in your lentil soup…it’s…different.’

      35. Mommypino, I agree with much of what you said. I appreciate the “help” as you did a fine job of relaying the argument for leaders who make tough decisions while also exhibiting empathic qualities.

        I had many of your same thoughs, Mommypino…. but I could sense that if I threw out point after point, that Renarde would break it down, Tudor-style, and would likely disagree…. Tudor-style. ☺

        So I opted to tell a story, my wannabe parable, if you will, hoping my point of how we all can show strength and aggression when provoked (Ruby) would stir up a little empathic respect. While a sensitive soul might not start a fight, beware that she might be more than capable of ending it. (Ruby vs. Bitch. Please know I’m referring to a real bitch – 🐕)

        I was also trying to show how blubbering empaths can pull their shit together and often be the most calm, clear-headed one in the group (Me 🏆😊… at least that one summer day).

        Now Renarde, please don’t take my statement above wrong. I love the way you are very analytical. I love (❤) thinkers and your intelligence is apparant. I appreciate the manner in which you express your opinions. It reminds me so much of the way HG spouts off his thoughts… numbering his concise, direct answers. (I need to earn a thing or two about that style.)

        Renarde, we both already established that we agree that we all have narcissistic traits. When I said “only God knows” how high that number would be, I was thinking of those high on the narcissistic scale… basically narcissists shy of the disorder.

        But if we truly are at roughly 17% NPD (got the “D” in there that time, Renarde ☺) then it is hard for me to assume that 83% of society is just passing through the motions, waiting for instruction from the all-powerful Narcs.

        (I just now heard the scrapping sound all the way over here… of HG’s eyeballs rolling inside his head as he mutters to himself that he has a school full of empaths who do just that! And we do. We depend on his instruction as HG is needed, but please bear with me as I try to make my point.)

        Like Mommypino implied… how do we know which leaders exhibit which traits… between normals and the remaining empaths as on any given day, we might show one trait more than the other? Renarde, you say that it doesn’t matter as showing any empathy would basically group us together. I think that makes the point of the 83% even more solid… that “they/us” by sheer force of numbers, are having a huge impact on society, even on a “macro” level. As Mommy-P stated…. I don’t think that just because an individual isn’t a president or a king… it doesn’t mean their impact isn’t huge. Actually, it’s often a grassroots movement that move things the most.

        What I’m trying to say is… we ALL matter. (Not that you were trying to say we don’t, Renarde.) But keep in mind that so much about these disorders are based upon the subject that got this whole debate started… PERCEPTION.

        Basically, all humans can experience anxiety, but what makes it a disorder for some… a medical diagnosis requiring therapy or medication? In part, it’s how it manifests… how it affects our activities of daily living… how it is perceived by the individual who is affected, and more often, how it affects those who have to “live” with the affected individual?! Our opinions vary so greatly because that’s what perception does…

        It makes me say that I feel “right” since my perception is exactly as I see it. 👀😄

        And K is right… don’t forget the facade…

        Of course narcissists want us to think that THEY are the best leaders… They are, after all, highly narcissistic! 😃

      36. But if we truly are at roughly 17% NPD (got the “D” in there that time, Renarde ☺) then it is hard for me to assume that 83% of society is just passing through the motions, waiting for instruction from the all-powerful Narcs.

        There it is. Precisely. All of us are under control. It’s everywhere. Can we say, with any certainty, that our own thoughts are actually our own and are not manifestations of someone else’s desires?

        For example, take two manipulations, the love bomb and the gaslight. You know that the initial premise of these is actually really quite clumsy, both are so so obvious. They work because the aim is in accordance with the Es desires. They want it to be true so they belive it to be so.

        All of us on here are by definition ‘weaponised’. So, how many of us have had a conversation with a narc, let’s say one of a high cognitive function. Ever noticed how sometimes this ‘shift’ a conversation into an area they have control over or maybe turn the conversation onto another topic. Not all are skilled at this but some are and it happens very very subtly indeed. If you are not watching for it you might well miss it.

        Yes, we are in the majority but 17% is an extremely sizable minority. THIS is the illusion itself; that democracy works (it doesn’t the system is already loaded). People really want to believe that the vote matters. It doesn’t, never has. The government always get’s in. Who is the government? Why, it’s the civil service.

      37. Perspective* not perception… not that it doesn’t also apply.

        See Renarde, I warned you I’m not very good at this.

      38. “MP- Ns are probably overrepresented in the macro level of politics but that doesn’t mean that they are running society.

        R- They aren’t: the Greaters are. Middles just think they are. A difference.”

        I said Ns because I was reacting to your statement that Ns are running society, but I really meant the higher functioning ones. In fact I did say that the Ns in politics are the higher functioning ones. Although we also have Upper Lessers that reach the top such as Trump and the current president of the Philippines and also other countries in other developing or dictatorial nations.

      39. Loving how you’ve conflated Trump with other other developing or dictatorial nations! Speaks volumes!

        Ah, Trump would love to be a dictator. But he’s not.

        I’m taking your point on the higher functioning ones but that does rather imply a sliding scale. Of course we know that it’s not. There is a clear boundary between being aware and not being aware. It is important to be precise, I think.

      40. I want to read over this entire discussion as I’ve only caught pieces, but I really wanted to say I agree with your post about rules, WS. I tend to rebel against anything that smacks of dogma instinctively, though it can sneak by me, and I hate rules that are merely paternalistic and restrict my freedom to fuck up.

      41. “For example, take two manipulations, the love bomb and the gaslight. You know that the initial premise of these is actually really quite clumsy, both are so so obvious. They work because the aim is in accordance with the Es desires. They want it to be true so they belive it to be so.”

        Yes, BUT…
        Huge but, and something I’ve frequently contemplated as it is the very source of my fatal error…

        It IS so.
        In it’s own way. This is where I think the difference must be understood by everyone, every person, everywhere.

        They do it because they do “like” you, want you around, want to be near you. They need you. HG also talks about “jealousy”.
        The need to devalue is inevitable due to a completely different mechanism of prioritization revolving around control. So your needs cannot be met while theirs can.

        My mistake has always been being convinced of the underlying “fact” that even though they might be “doing it wrong” or “making mistakes” they are doing so because they are clearly interested in being there and care enough about me to try to be around which is somewhat true, I’m not a fool for thinking so, and which since I am not a narcissist, can be satisfying to me because I’m not an ego-maniac and I don’t wish to hurt anyone really. Once I’m attached they can then go on to increase the hurtful actions that don’t at all interfere with their needs being met and I end up paying while it makes perfect sense to them that as an object I would fall in line. And then anything I do to stop myself from being hurt, having my will, needs and desires ignored, is called out by them as selfish for my interfering with their needs being met.

        I’ve thought about it because I definitely think people behaving co-dependently have some defense in saying that they weren’t simply/only projecting, there really is some truth in believing that attention and love bombing indicate desire and “care”. We just really have to understand that they are focusing on things for entirely different reasons and it can only end badly because we do care differently in ways that are tied to not being selfish and objectifying, we believe that ultimately what’s best for someone else is important.

        Just thinking, I think it is somewhat related to how laws are decided and implemented, etc as well.
        Of course I certainly don’t support cock-fighting : P.

  10. Windstorm,

    I think you can argue a lot things are right or wrong depending on the perspective. But the only examples I can think of to illustrate this are too emotionally charged.

    I laughed at your confirmation that ethics where you are would sound exactly like MB’s description! I live in a fairly religious community – although nothing like the bible belt I’m sure – and I do not share my personal views widely where I live.

    Also, I probably shouldn’t have laughed so hard at MB’s red neck comment because I live amongst many who might fit that description…

    1. WC and WS, nothing wrong with a redneck! They are some of the best and nicest people I know. Just don’t take them to the theater with you! They will get you thrown out for being uncouth.

      1. MB,

        I try not to judge a book by it’s cover. And where I am you may well find someone who looks like a red neck in attendance at the theater (it’s quite an eclectic community) and they are better behaved and more appreciative than some who consider themselves ‘cultured.’

  11. With my online narc, I always knew it wasn’t a classic, healthy love. However, to me, it felt like a form of love. Very twisted, hot, sometimes even demeaning love, but also I felt accepted and wanted and desired. I loved how he made me feel, until I realized I was feeling bad and devalued and humiliated more than good. The highs were so far apart. During sexting, he used to throw in little things like “I want to ruin you for any other man.” This was hot because I wanted a lover who was that attentive and memorable. However, since ghosting him my sex drive has shut down. There was a brief window last year where it returned as my husband started WANTING sex and seemed to be raging less. When the raging got bad again at our dog, I realized that nothing has changed at all, and now sex repulses me. How messed up is that? I know HG’s post is about love, but this is part of the equation of intimate love.

    Mary

  12. All interesting viewpoints on morality here…I feel like I am back in my university philosophy class!

  13. HG Tudor
    January 23, 2019 at 11:41

    Time to play some Hadaway!

    I remember some other music and bands you’ve made a reference to, like Amanda and her crush on Simon le Bon from Duran Duran.
    If I had to make an educated guess I’d say you were born around 1970. How far off am I? Will he tell?

  14. I have to say I am truly disappointed in the responses from the “empaths”. Is that all LOVE is to you, infatuation and fairytale romance? Wait, let me guess. Most of you are under the age of 30?

    1. Dearest marinathemermaid3,
      Mr Bubbles n I have known each other for over 50 years… happily married…. we “liked” each other first
      We’re basically retired, although Mr Bubbles dabbles in his work,… he luvs what he does and I care for my nearly 90 yo mum
      For us….” respect ” is paramount and a sense of humour
      Love is just a word
      It’s how you treat your partner that shows how much you care
      Respect for privacy, support, encouragement, building each other up not tearing them down, listening, being happy for them, no jealousy, sharing interests, similar values n morals, compatibility and we compliment each other in very positive ways and we always have “time” for each other
      We also agree to disagree, respectfully
      Even after half a century …. we still look forward to seeing each other when one walks thru the door
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  15. My love was never stolen because I never loved him. I never fully trusted him. Not even in the beginning.

    1. Mercy,

      What is love anyway? I am not sure that I know, despite what I wrote above. Sometimes I think I did love him and sometimes I think that if I do think I loved him then I don’t know what love is! I think he wanted me to love him because he once asked me if I had loved someone from my past I then spent 17 years not speaking to. I said I did not love that person. It was just infatuation.

      The closest I ever got to saying anything about it to MRN was that I thought we were in love with each other and then modifying that to say that I thought we were in love with THINGS about each other (this was in my more naive period). I have no idea if it was love or not on my end. I don’t think I am a love devotee but I am a fix it devotee.

      This post made me think of Lucinda Williams’ Steal Your Love, which always makes me think of MRN. ‘Did they lay down a law and lock up your heart – I’m gonna have to steal your love.’

      1. SMH, don’t get me started on “what is love”. Apparently I have strong opinions and didn’t even know. Ive been in 3 serious relationships. The first, my kids dad who is a lesser. I did not love him. I stayed because I was young and had three small children and thought I needed his help. Turns out I did better on my own. My second relationship was not with a narcissist. It was love but more of a friendship. Just something safe and comfortable. My third you know about. I remember sitting in my car in my driveway and getting a sweet text from him. I thought to myself “I love him”. I quickly squashed that thought. “you do not love this man”. How can you love someone that you cant trust? When every day you’re with him you wonder if it will be the last. Even before I knew about the other women, I didn’t trust him.

        “Sometimes I think I did love him and sometimes I think that if I do think I loved him then I don’t know what love it”. Love isn’t that complicated. It shouldn’t be a riddle. You shouldn’t have to guess and wonder. He was selfish by deceiving you into thinking you were the only one. Your feeling were based on lies. He never considered what his lies would do to you. He never considered your feelings at all.

        “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth”

        Now I’m quoting the Bible. My father would be so proud…haha I have to get off this subject.

        Maybe we need to blame love so that we don’t have to face the uncomfortable truth that we were thoroughly mind fuck!

      2. Ah Mercy,

        If I told you about all of my serious relationships you might be shocked. I am pretty sure I am a true serial monogamist but I only figured this out when I was with MRN. I can be in love/infatuated but transitioning to real love is another thing altogether. I think love is very complicated and I also think I value freedom and honesty over everything else. Maybe now I only purely love my kid (now kids).

        I was honest with MRN and he was not honest with me, but we are both fucked up, just in different ways. I don’t blame him for everything. A lot of people do ‘safe and comfortable’ but I don’t (for long) and it seems that you don’t either. That is okay. You didn’t do anything wrong by taking a risk and neither did I. The trick is to survive the fallout.

        Anyway, this is what I think today! Who knows what tomorrow will bring :).

        xo

      3. SMH, I love your attitude and I don’t you could shock me with your relationship stories.

        Speaking of love/infatuation I had a very cute guy randomly message me on Facebook last night. My first thought was “hmm I wonder what’s wrong with you” and I ignored. What is my problem?? I can’t get past the road block!

      4. Mercy, Every step is a step in the right direction unless he was completely random. Was he a fake? I had someone try to friend me and message me. He was a friend of a friend and he had already gone through all my photos that he could see. He said something about it in his message and I was totally weirded out! But then he wasn’t cute! Go for it just for the practice.

      5. SMH, nope he wasn’t fake, we have a lot of mutual friends, but yes random. I like the idea of practice though. What holds me back is that BS used fb to get his women. His favorite was the Happy Birthday private message.

      6. Mercy, Maybe even more reason to practice – so you stop associating BS with Facebook?

      7. LOVE is an idea or concept. People have wildy different ideas and concepts. To pretend to be able to define it as something agreeable to everyone is beyond narcissistic – it’s delusional.

      8. Haha I agree NarcAngle and this is something I have learned right here in the last couple days through discussion. Love is defined by our own self.

      9. If I could have one wish for this blog, it would be for WordPress to stop being such an asshole in how it ranks the comments. Cripes I wanted to respond to SMH but then I lost it, found it, then didn’t know where to interject. Oy.

        Anyway, I agree with what you say, SMH. When you wrote this: “It also reminds me of the lies my narc did tell me, including about his name, and the secretive way in which he behaved. I felt buried and suffocated and tired of being treated like a child.”

        I was amazed to see you also had a narc do a fake name! Now, going back to perspective, the Mid Ranger never thought he did anything wrong and tried to pass it off as his: ‘It’s my mother’s maiden name,’ etc. even though no one knew him by that name. He was a pathological liar. That’s not perspective but fact. He just flat out made shit up.

        He was SO secretive about everything. I never knew what was up, then when I would withdraw b/c I would call him out on his BS he accused me of ‘abandoning him.’ I could not win.

        He went on about my intellect and talent in the beginning but by the end he was speaking to me like I was a moron child. (Not moon child, but moron child. Haha.)

      10. Bibi,

        Sometimes I cannot find the reply thing either but if I put the person’s moniker in the message they usually find it. I often search on ‘SMH’ to find things (though some people write SMH because they really are shaking their heads).

        A few of us have had narcs lie about their names. It’s complicated how I figured out who mine was but I did. He didn’t lie about much else as far as I know, except about being divorced (just a small thing).

        I sent him an email with his real name to his fake emal, so I would have proof of who was behind the fake email – this was early on and I was already plotting and collecting evidence before I even knew there was an IPPS. He didn’t react at all except to apologize. He had a plausible excuse.

        I asked him if he wanted to know how I figured it out and he said no! Maybe because it would have wounded him.

        Once I pointed out that he was lying to both me and to IPPS and treating both of us like children and he said ‘how am I lying to my wife?’ Talk about deluded. To him, lies of ommission were not lies. Only lies of commission were lies.

        I would leave him all the time too (5 times to be precise) but he would hoover directly or indirectly until I broke NC.

        But we also had very good rapport – he is very, very smart, calm, excellent sense of humour, never criticized my personal qualities and our chemistry was off the charts, so there is that!!

        I had a trigger today and almost broke NC after 9 months…

  16. How do I get my heart back when the one who stole it no longer exists? How do I get back on track when I feel I can’t even direct my own heart where to go? Today is sad day 🙁

    1. It will mend. Your heart will knit itself back. Just like a cut on your body, over time it regenerates and the area is fresh and new.
      Your heart will be new. No, not the old heart but, do you really want it back considering what he’s done to it? You get to make the regrowth with what YOU want. Fill your heart with love, compassion and resilience. It will grow back even mightier than it was before!

      1. Thank you, 69Revolver. It’s just taking so long 🙁 Of course, I should probably stop picking the scab…

      1. Marinathemermaid3, that’s exactly what I’m trying to do. Trying to love my husband and redirect my affections and loyalty and everything important back to him. But it’s as if there’s no heart IN me now. Or it’s at least not working properly to be able to give love to the one who I should.

      2. Joanne, I went through that feeling at first. Mine’s actually more embarrassing because I didn’t even have a relationship with the narc, it was just crush. I didn’t even get a golden whoopie from the narc. And yet my loyalty and devotion to my husband all of a sudden shifted to this narc. It was like my heart was stolen. So I tried to look at my husband the way I saw him when I had the biggest crush on him and it wasn’t working. Then I started realizing that i have had quite a bit of burried down resentments with my husband. So I started confronting him about those, we had fights and I demanded that I wanted couple’s therapy and even threatened with the “D” word. His alpha personality used to invalidate my complains that I was just too sensitive but the “D” word scared him so he listened and now he has changed and we’re back to our own version of our Golden Period. We are so happy and in love again. Maybe you need to look into your marriage and see if there was something hat was missing before the narc came. And maybe you can work on that with your husband.

      3. mommypino
        I can completely understand your situation with your narc, even if it was only a crush. These feelings are so powerful. I would never expect something that lasted 2 months would have me this spun up. It seems completely ridiculous. And your description on how your loyalty and devotion shifted is just how I feel. Even though it’s over, I feel like that is where my feelings remain (in some bizarre way). It’s good that you were able to identify issues within your marriage that led you in this direction – at least you could repair it. Outside of the normal, little, irritating things a spouse can do, mine does nothing wrong. He is an amazing guy who treats me well. I certainly was not looking for this narc’s attention (or anyone’s attention) but once it was there it was so hard to look away. I’m trying to force myself out of this haze and start appreciating what I have once again before it’s too late. I’m hopeful things will get better once I’ve moved on from the narc. I hate that our marital connection just feels broken now and I’m going through the motions.

      4. Joanne,

        It’s so true about how powerful that narcy pull is. And I was not looking or even thinking about an affair either but the narc was so persistent and brazen with his flirtations that it was so hard for me to not develop any feelings for him.

        My husband is an amazing guys as well and he treats me well too. But we had a few issues that didn’t get resolved and got burried inside. Trying to bring up conflicts with my husband was also my way of making him up his game. I needed to be completely happy with our marriage and my connection with him felt broken like exactly what you described. My husband had no idea that I was making him compete against the narc inside my mind. Thankfully he did the things that I told him I needed him to do and he was able to win my heart back again.

        You will eventually get out of that haze as long as you keep No Contact. And the articles here were very helpful to me in losing my appetite and attraction to the narc. Also do more intimate stuff with your husband. Little things like holding hands more often and going out to dates more often or going on a vacation together helps strengthen your bond back. Also maybe look at your old family photographs together will brong back happy memories with your husband. Hopefully some of these can help. 💕

    2. Joanne,
      I have got through many stages. I have been feeling better lately trying to imagine that he is happy with his new life as I try to be with mine because I loved him and I wish him well as I always did. When I focus on his bad aspects I feel hopeless and untrusting because there is no way of getting closure when you concentrate on having been betrayed as the wound will keep bleeding because of the need of getting answers about the motivations behind his actions when they were more or less provoked by his instinct. My feelings for him were pure and very profound, I didn’t failed, he did (from my perspective) but not because he is evil but because of his mental disorder that is totally out of his control. I’m glad I got the opportunity to experience the depths of my emotions, the positive and the negative ones. I scaped though so that means I was conscious of what he was and of leaving him was better/healthier for me before I left. Acceptance of the situation is the key because it is a fact that to have a healthy relationship with a narc is not possible and therefore it is better to let them go.
      I hope you feel better today! 🤗

      1. AJ, thank you so much for sharing this perspective! I really struggle with those feelings of hopelessness and lack of closure. It is very difficult at times not to focus on the betrayal, as this narc is someone I’ve known since I was a child. I keep circling back to “how could he target ME, shouldn’t I have been off limits owing to us having this childhood history together?” But your point is so valid – his motivations were provoked by instinct, and when I pull together everything I’ve learned here, this is what I can summarize:

        1. He is a MRN
        2. He targeted me based on the empathic qualities I’ve shown him over time (plus the added “benefit” of me being married thus easy prey)
        3. When he began his pursuit, he truly believed I was “the one” / he believed all the things he was telling me IN THOSE MOMENTS
        4. When I failed to provide consistent potent fuel, his attention went elsewhere/shifted to another source in his matrix
        5. When confronted on why he changed, he honestly didn’t feel that he changed OR was to blame
        6. As a MRN he fully believes he is a good person, did not do me any wrong
        7. He has a disorder that will prevent him from having a normal/healthy relationship with me and anyone else, and it is beyond his control

        It’s interesting to me that you say you’re glad to have experienced the depth of your emotions. I feel this too, in that I ask myself if I would do this all over again if I could, and the answer should be a resounding “NO,” but I go back and forth. In my case, things ended before they really began, so as hurt as I feel, I did not go through the full cycle (was shelved without devaluation, etc). He was never DIRECTLY cruel to me. He just kind of…withdrew, turned off his firehouse of affection overnight… So when I think back to those high highs, I sometimes feel like, yes, I would definitely do this all again. I’ve never felt so high before. I was lovesick – didn’t need to eat, drink, sleep. All I needed was him. The last time I saw him, I left him feeling every cell in my body buzzing for hours, and we were hardly intimate! Of course, the low was a hell unlike anything I’d experienced either. But it’s been an interesting exploration of my own psychology, emotions and life in general. Not to mention all that I’ve learned about narcissism in general. It was/is an experience like none other.

        I’m happy to hear you’re able to wish him well. Such a huge key in coming to acceptance. Just reading your comment made me feel lighter… I am going to screenshot and save it to look back on when I need a reset on my logical thinking (which is often) <3

      2. Believe me, I know what you are talking about, Joanne because my experience was pretty much the same as yours in essence. I agree with your points but I think there is a tricky part on point 3 that keeps you deceiving yourself. Yes, he believed his feelings during the golden period were true but yet he chose you because you were already on a relationship and knew he would not need to invest on you or even need to get “serious”. It is pretty cynical and very demonstrative of his real self.
        I also relate with the way you describe your feelings during the golden period, they were surreal so unbelievable that I recall telling my self that it couldn’t be true and still I stayed.
        That you knew him from your childhood only makes more sense of why you ended having a relationship with him at the moment that suited him best. It is painful to accept, I know how horrible it is to detach oneself from that special person. Our mistake as emphatic people is to try to neglect our feelings because it’s like denying our nature. It’s definitely better to accept our love and, at the same time, the reality of needing to stay away for our own good.
        I saw his wound from the very beginning and I even told him I was going to take care of him until he felt recovered. Now I know it was a mistake but my wishes for him to feel good are still genuine.
        Give you time. I’m sure you will heal. You are wiser already 😉

      3. AJ, you are definitely right on my #3. As much as he future faked us being married someday, our kids being “best friends” and so on, he started this knowing exactly what my situation was and I can’t overlook that. And as for you telling your narc you’d take care of him — I had that same thought toward mine. Just wanting to soothe and help him and love his pain away. I never had the opportunity to actually say it to him but I would have. Mistake or not, whether they deserve it or not, I think it’s just part of our nature to need to be true to ourselves. Thank you again ❤️

      4. “What is life? A madness.
        What is life? An illusion, a shadow, a story.
        And the greatest good is little enough; for all life is a dream, and dreams themselves are only dreams.”

        Pedro Calderón de la Barca, Life is a Dream

  17. This speaks to me. I once told him in a positive way at a point where it was meant to be over (it wasn’t) that I would never be able to be with anyone else – that I would never allow another man to touch me (we did not utter the word love until the very end). At the time, I believed it. I was completely sincere. But it turned out not to be true because within months of my final escape a year after this I met someone else and I allowed him to touch me and I even fell a little bit in love with him. There is a future. Love replenishes itself.

  18. “I do not think I will ever love any again, how can I after that?”

    I do think I can love again, but I will love differently. I will love someone out of want, not out of need.

  19. Wrong wrong and wrong!!! I can’t seem to let this go! How completely wrong your perception of LOVE is! The more I learn about your kind, and that involves being one of your “victims “(although I don’t really subscribe to that viewpoint because none of us are ever truly victims in this life. That viewpoint just gives your kind seemingly more power), the more Love I have for you and the more i want to find a way to heal you. There is no draining of unconditional Love. It is unconditional. It has no need for fuel. It feeds itself. It is self perpetuating. It is the glue that binds everyone together. My ex narc didn’t like it at all when I told him what truly loving him meant. It meant that I didn’t need anything from him. That I was just happy to know he existed. There is no way anyone can drain that. The supply is limitless.

    1. There is no right or wrong. This is a perception which is right for us. It is not your perception so you label it as wrong, you are entitled to do so, but that does not make it wrong in itself because there is no grand arbiter that states ‘this is right’ and ‘that is wrong’.

      1. Maybe this should be one of the Narcissistic Truths:

        My perspective is that your perspective is wrong from our perspective.

      2. I disagree. There is a right and wrong. There is a moral code that most people live by. I’m not talking about romantic love,which I think is just an illusion, a mirroring if you will. But there is a “do unto others ” code that most decent people live by.

      3. No. The moral code is based on perspective. My moral code is based on my perspective and differs from yours because you have a different perspective. There is no objective test of right or wrong, only a majority view which arises from certain agreement between a majority who share a similar perspective because they have evolved in a similar way. The majority impose the moral code which a legal system is then based on. It arises from the imposition of majority intent – there is no objective standard against which the majority’s viewpoint can be measured.

        Let us say in a fictional country Fuelatania there is a law whereby anybody with green hair has to go and live on the island of Ostracise. That law arose from the relevant statute, enacted through a democratic system of voting by relevant representatives. Those representatives were elected through a democratic election process and the governing party had this policy as part of its manifesto. The majority of the country wanted this policy because they find green-haired people strange and untrustworthy (are they strange and untrustworthy – well they are to the majority who perceive them that way). Thus a moral code that green haired people are untrustworthy has arisen. The legal framework is based on this moral code and thus becomes the law and off to the island goes anybody with green hair. Nobody protests about this because they see it as an appropriate response to protect the population as a whole (who are either blue or purple haired) and the green hairers can’t protest as they are shipped off at birth and stuck on an island and disenfranchised. You would probably think such a law to be unfair, discriminatory and wrong based on your perspective but the majority of Fueltania see it as a good thing and following democracy it becomes law representing the prevailing will and the moral code.

        Thus there is no inherent good or bad thing, it is all about persepctive.

      4. There are morally correct and incorrect things if we accept the proposition that society has to perpetuate itself. We don’t all live on mountain tops. If everyone kills everyone else, well there goes society. If everyone lies to everyone else all the time, well there goes social cohesion. If people do not share, many will do without and die. There are other near universal morals – incest for one is universally prohibited between parents and children and usually between siblings. There are things that one therefore rightfully expects from another individual – safety (not to be murdered) and honesty (not to be lied to). Narcs provide neither. Therefore they can be morally condemned. Yes, you are bad person, HG. It is not that your perspective is different. It is that you do not adhere to basic moral principles that allow healthy social relationships to develop. Those relationships are the building blocks of society. If everyone acted like you, the world would be a sorry place. Well, the world is a sorry place because a lot of people do act like you.

        Don’t get me wrong – I like you. But I find your loosey goosey morality problematic. Just because the majority decided democratically that condemning green haired people to an island is morally right, that doesn’t make it morally right. It is one thing to understand why people act the way they do. It is quite another thing to accept their actions. One can understand why people behave a certain way without condoning or excusing the behavior because it falls under a different moral code. I understand why honor killings happen. That doesn’t mean I think they are morally justifiable just because X society decides that they are.

      5. Thankyou SMH I know you advance your observations having given them consideration and you don’t need to caveat your comment with regard to liking me, but I acknowledge the sentiment.

        My position is that the majority view (form a roughly shared perspective) forms the moral framework and from that follows rules, laws etc. Thus the concept of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ is generated from this.

        You have not explained in what you have written what the basis for your moral code comes from. You state that I do not adhere to basic moral principles that allow healthy and social relationships to develop – what are those principles and how are they generated? They come from a prevailing majority view – they are not a universally accepted fact in the universe but instead they arise from the way humans have evolved and their majority view creates what is deemed as right and wrong. Your reference to me again fails to acknowledge differing perspectives. You automatically assume my behaviour is ‘bad’ and it is not ‘healthy’ – bit for who? Bad for the victim – agreed. Bad for me? No. Healthy for the victim? No. Healthy for me? Yes. Do you see – just because you do not approve because of your perspective you fall into the trap (as empaths do) of assuming your perspective is the only one which can be deemed right. No, it is right for you, but not for me – why, because my perspective is different.

        You state that incest is universally prohibited between parents and children and between siblings (I am sure WS will explain how this does not always apply in Kentucky – couldn’t resist WS!!) – yes because the evolution of humans and their perspective deemds that to be a ‘bad’ thing. You could go to another planet where incest is not outlawed because they have evolved differently and they could be amazed and stunned that on earth sexual familial relations are outlawed. In that society on another planet, their society may well function with incest being acceptable and not morally (or legally) unacceptable. Might problems arise from that – possibly, there may be certain advantages that occur in that society because of it.

        You say the world is a sorry place because of a lot of people do act like you. Again you are asserting this standpoint from your perspective. Yes it seems sorry to you because people are hurt, upset, financially ruined, manipulated and so forth. However, there are also a lot of our kind who are not in a sorry place because of being a narcisisst (I accept this does not apply to all narcisissts) but many of our kind wield power, influence, go where they wish, create and build, succeed and win in sport, drama, industry, academia, become wealthy. Do they see their world as sorry? Of course not. Why? becuase of perspective. You would say well they may be well-off, have a big house, influence politics etc but they are morally bankrupt but again that is your perspective, not ours.

        It is an interesting debate and I appreciate your constructive input.

      6. Incest is all too common here. Sort of like cock fighting – against the law but still going on out of sight. Everyone does not see it as necessarily bad.

        Reminded me of a story. Years ago a social studies teacher was having all her students research and draw out their family tree. One girl came up to me and said, “look Ms Windstorm! My family tree comes back together at the top!”
        I am not making that up. I looked and it did. 😳

      7. Lol, Windstorm. Actually, first cousin marriage is quite common throughout the world. It is not illegal in the US, though most people would find it yucky. Did you read about that MAGA hat wearing Catholic kid confronting that native American guy? Apparently, right before that a bunch of Black Hebrew Israelites (whatever those are) were insulting the Catholic kids who are from Kentucky, calling them ‘dumb ass crackers’ and ‘incest kids.’

      8. SMH
        You don’t have to tell me about how common first cousin marriage is. It’s been really common in rural counties here. Some communities nearly everyone there has the same last name.

        Yeah the thing with the Catholic kids has been in the news a lot.
        “Dumb ass crackers”! Shows how dumb he is. Crackers are from Florida or Georgia. It’s always sad to me whenever someone tries to make themselves feel better by trying to pull others down.

      9. SMH
        Just to be clear, that wasn’t an insult to Floridians and Georgians. They call themselves crackers. It’s a good thing.

      10. I’m enjoying this debate. I want to point out that empaths are debating moral code when next door “dirty empath infidelity” is winning the poll…I’m just gonna leave that there.

      11. Not really. Infidelity is quite common everywhere. It is more a question of what is acceptable/accepted in a given society.

      12. Mercy, I explained in my ongoing debate with HG that in fact there are not that many moral universals. What we call cheating is actually quite common throughout the world and the definition of fidelity varies. Multiple wives, French mistresses, la casa chica, all common. I wouldn’t identify fidelity in intimate relationships as a moral universal. However, I would identify honesty as one!

      13. SMH, I think that brings us back full circle to what HG says. Morals are ones prospective. Don’t get me wrong, I’m in the side of moral code. I may cheat but that doesn’t mean I think it’s morally right. To error is human. I meant what I said that I was enjoying the debate. Both made valid points and both written perfectly. I accept HGs prospective but that doesn’t mean I agree. This is one of those situations where logic cannot sway my opinion.

      14. And I was just thinking every time I see a “W” notification on my phone I feel like a Winner…Thanks HG, I wish I could blame spell check.

      15. Professor Tudor, If you spend all of your time correcting spelling mistakes and the like we will never get to our lessons. But I am impressed to see that you read everything so carefully. I do not know how you do it.

      16. In fairness, I generally do not do so even when I see typos and wrong words used but since that appeared twice and might be misunderstood (after all many readers do not have English as a first language although often you would never know owing to the impeccable standard demonstrated). I largely refrain from such corrections because I know typos and autocorrect can occur.

      17. HG just to be clear, English is my first language. I just suck at spelling! You will be happy to know I will never spell it wrong again.

      18. Mercy, Maybe it is semantics and HG’s use of the word ‘moral.’ I fully accept that there are different perspectives. i just do not believe that a perspective or a different reality is automatically right just because it exists.

      19. Again, there is no such thing as objectively right. it is subjective. What is right or good for me, may not be right or good for you.

      20. HG, In general I would agree but again you are confusing two kinds of relativism. Moral rightness is objective. Perspectival rightness is subjective. You are describing the latter, not the former, and we do gain a lot here from your insights into the narc tribe.

        There are not many things that are objectively right, but that doesn’t mean they do not exist or are not important. One objectively right thing is honesty – that is, not deceiving someone for your own ends. You do not lie to us and that is one reason why we gain so much from your insights. What you do here is a good thing, in great part because you do not deceive or obfuscate or dissemble. But you are dishonest with Shieldmaiden. If she were one of us, your advice to her would be to GOSO, right?

        You are now in a bind because you know what you are so you do not have the excuse of a Lesser or a Mid-ranger. If you change so much that you are no longer a narc and can maintain that relationship, it would weaken your position as a spokesperson for NPD. You would no longer be a Greater. If you do not change, you are continuing to be dishonest with Shieldmaiden. You are violating a moral code as well as building a relationship based on lies. You are therefore in a hypocritical position. If I were you, I would tell her what you are and what you do. In other words, I would be honest and not keep her in the dark. Let her in and let her make her own decisions and come along for the ride if she wants to. Do you have any plans to come clean?

      21. No. Honesty is not linked to an objective standard either. The Mid Range narcissist believes he IS honest because of his perspective. The victim believes the narcissist is not honest because of his or her perspective. The MR narcissist does not see it as a lie owing to a differing perspective, the victim does, because of a differing perspective. It is the same as asking ‘ what is the colour red’ – to one person their red may well be another’s green and to another their version of blue – there is no way to objectively determine that because it is based on perspective caused by the interpretation of the brain.

      22. Again I would argue that you are confusing two things. Just because the narc believes that he is not lying does not mean that he is not lying. Yes it is important for us to understand that the narc believes he is not lying. But he is nevertheless lying even if he believes that he isn’t.

        Just because someone sees a red wall when the wall is blue doesn’t mean that the wall is actually in reality red, even if the person sees it as red (or believes that what is objectively blue is what most of us call red). Visual perception does indeed vary (though most people would agree on the colour) but there is something called a spectrophotometer (I just looked it up!!) that does indeed objectively measure color. Colorimetry is the science of objective color measurement.

        Perception and perspective do matter of course, and they are crucial to understanding someone else’s worldview and behavior. But that does not negate the fact that some things are true and real and other things are not. Let’s take as an example witchcraft. Plenty of people in the world believe in witchcraft of one sort or another, and they act accordingly – including killing those they believe to be witches (or child snatchers or whatever). If one wants to understand why some people behave in certain ways, one might need to understand their witchcraft belief system. But that doesn’t mean witchcraft objectively exists outside of that belief system. It might, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that it does.

        If you are getting tired of this discussion, just let me know. My position will not change. I am simply trying to clarify a few issues that I think might be misleading.

      23. HG, I appreciate your input too. I think we disagree on where the moral framework comes from. I think it comes from the necessity of living in groups – people are fundamentally social and just about everything they do involves sociality and its maintenance – group cohesion.

        I also think you are confusing moral or ethical relativism with cultural relativism. The latter, yes, it is necessary to take a relativistic perspective to understand that people do things differently in different places for their own historical and cultural reasons. Maybe it works for them (some of them – I doubt women killed for reasons of honour acquiesce at the moment of their death) and it is important to understand why people do things the way they do, which is what you are teaching us here and which I very much appreciate. It is like reading about an exotic tribe called narcs.

        Moral relativism is a completely different animal. As I said, just because a culture engages in honour killings or banishes green haired people to an island does not make it okay. We can understand it from their perspective but we do not have to – and should not – condone it. In other words, I do believe there are a few moral absolutes. This does not keep me from understanding other people’s perspectives but in the end I do feel able to say what is right and what is wrong, universally, which is why I struggled so much about whether to tell IPPS (I can relate all of this to my own behavior as well – I don’t claim to be morally superior – only to think about these things a lot). I am not judgmental because I don’t believe in this regard that there are that many things that are universally right or wrong. Most things fall into a grey area – not good or bad. Not everything matters that much or is easily categorized. But maybe if you substitute gay people or a minority religion for your green haired people it will make more sense. Just because a majority of a society votes to banish gay people to an island, that does not make it morally acceptable.

        You’d better get your correct shoes on unless you plan to do the two left feet dance!

      24. Why thank you, MB. I do think HG is confusing two things. Yes he is teaching us a different perspective – a different belief system, a different way of doing things – and those teachings are very valuable, including for understanding our own dirty streaks. But that doesn’t make narc clulture morally acceptable.

      25. Not morally acceptable to you, but morally acceptable to me – again you keep thinking that there is an objective moral standard – there is not. There is only one arising from a subjective one, which is subjective to a majority and thus it prevails.

        Consider this. I am choosing something which is about what is considered good/acceptable/polite behaviour which is on the same wavelength as morals.

        If you go to watch a play at the theatre, do you talk to your friend who has joined you at your usual conversational volume or whisper or stay silent? Do you get up and down when you want to use the bathroom, buy a snack, make a call or do you remain in your seat until the intermission? Do you join in with the singing (if there is any) or remain silent? Do you call out towards the actors at any point or just watch? I should imagine you sit quietly, remain in your seat and observe. If you talked you would get shushed, if you kept getting up and down you would attract tuts and mutters, if you sang loudly you might be shushed and glared at, if you called out at the actors you would attract disdain and properly be asked to leave and even ejected. The perceived and accepted standard of behaviour at a theatre when watching a play is to sit quietly and unobtrusively and to do otherwise is seen as bad behaviour. Why? That is what the majority have deemed to be acceptable.

        Go back a hundred years or more and at a theatre you would experience the audience to talk to one another in a normal conversational manner, frequently and without whispering, the audience would move around as they pleased, they would shout out at the actors, sing heartily and they would even be sat on the same stage as the actors. Nobody complained. Why? This was the prevailing majority view and was deemed acceptable..

        Humans attended as the audience. One set of behaviours was perfectly fine but has become unacceptable – why? Not because there is any objective behaviour or moral standard to theatre attendance but because it is shaped by what is deemed as acceptable by the majority because of what they perceive as acceptable. The fluidity of that acceptability reinforces there is no objective moral or behavioural standard, it is shaped by the majority and their perception.

      26. HG, Again, you are confusing two things: cultural relativism (your theatre example) with moral relativism. The majority sets the standard for acceptable/appropriate and taken for granted behavior, but they do not set the standard for what is morally right or wrong because morality is based on a different set of criteria – the survival of social groups as a whole and over the long term. Survival is impossible if the majority decides that it’s okay for everyone to, say, murder each other. The Holocaust and the Rwandan genocides were not okay just because the majority decided that they were. Apartheid was not okay just because the majority said it was. Yes we want to understand why these things happen, but we do not condone them. They are objectively wrong. Again, moral absolutes are few but they do exist and they have nothing to do with how people behave in a theatre (unless they are about to assassinate Lincoln). That behavior is a cultural issue and the past is a foreign country.

      27. If it is based on the survival of social groups that does not work, because our form of survival (based on this differing perspective) is different to yours – we survive (we are still here) and you survive (your ‘group’ is still here) so if both sets remain, how can one form of survival be deemed morally superior to the other? That does not work,

      28. I’m not trying to make a case for the moral superiority of one group or another. I am simply saying that some behaviors run counter to the survival of the human race and that is why they are universally condemned. You yourself have said that two narcs do not make a good pair. What if everyone were a narc? How would you ever procreate? How would you raise children together? You wouldn’t be able to stand each other. (Somewhat tongue in cheek but I could extend it to argue that narc behavior is actually counter-productive in a social sense.)

        But really let’s look at this a bit more because you do bring up an interesting point. We are all still here. Why are we all still here? Because we all live in societies that place checks on people’s behavior. You have said that you have killed someone but most people have no killed anyone. Maybe they would do if killing people were not universally condemned, maybe we would all have to think all the time about being pushed onto the tube tracks just because people feel that they can kill whoever they want whenever they want. Even most narcs don’t do that. Even most narcs have brakes. Why? Because society puts a lot of pressure even on narcs to behave in ways that are socially acceptable. That is why you are in treatment, after all. You are a member of society too. There is always pressure from other people – the people around you, the wider culture, to behave in ways that accord with what is deemed acceptable, as your theatre example showed very clearly. Embedded in that social pressure is the imperative to not kill (which I am using as my example). But that imperative to not take another life (there are exceptions as I have explained with my honor killings example, though that doesn’t take into account the perspectives of the victims of honor killings who probably do not want to be killed) is universal and therefore objectively wrong. There are not too many moral universals as I said at the beginning of all of this. I just think your argument that everything is subjective and nothing is right or wrong, is wrong-headed. Most things are indeed subjectively right or wrong, but not everything is.

      29. HG, I just want to emphasize that what you do here is very valuable and I am not trying to destroy your arguments. I just think it is a disservice to lead people on this blog to believe that ‘nothing is right or wrong.’ There are right things and wrong things in life, but that does not detract from what you are doing here. I just wish you would shift your vocabulary a bit so as not to confuse moral behavior with cultural behavior. The two are not entirely equivalent. There is some overlap – what is considered moral in one place might not be in another, but there are also aspects of morality that are outside of any particular set of behaviors/ beliefs in any given place. We do want to understand narc codes and we do understand that the narc has a very different belief system and set of needs than the empath, but that does not make both perspectives ‘correct’ in a moral sense. It just means that they are different.

      30. No, you do not understand. There is a right and a wrong, but it depends on perspective. I am explaining that there is no such thing as an objective standard for what is right or wrong – they exist, but as values created from perspective. I have invited you to explain where the objective standard of right and wrong comes from. I have explained right and wrong come from perspective, but that is not objective. It is not a disservice at all, quite the opposite, by explaining that these concepts rest on a subjective perspective I am assisting people in enabling them to understand the basis on which our behaviour is founded and thus enable them to make sense of many of our behaviours which flow from this foundation perspective.

      31. Yes I understand that you are explaining that subjectively speaking, narc behavior follows different codes than empath behavior – that the two perspectives are different and the behavor follows those different perspectives/needs/belief systems, if you will. I do not dispute that at all and you are very good at explaining it. The tribe of narc is fascinating. But that does not mean there are no objectively wrong behaviors that violate universal moral codes.

      32. SMH, I was blown away by your intelligent and well thought out response to HGs green hairs. I’ve enjoyed this discussion for the sake of seeing people with actual brain cells debate. Sometimes, I can feel my IQ draining IRL! Here, I get the opposite effect.

        I really don’t have an opinion one way or the other which sounds kind of spineless, but I truly do live and let live. I rarely have strong opinions about anything and when I voice them, I always end up apologizing anyway!

        I have a philosophy about life that is always true. “If it wasn’t meant to happen, it wouldn’t have happened.” Things always turn out the way they were meant to even if it isn’t the outcome we thought we wanted.

        Can anybody debate that?

      33. Balls. That’s just a defeatist platitude MB – shape your own life! You have brain cells too you know.

      34. I do have brain cells. Most of the time they just remain under stimulated, however. That’s why I appreciate you and all the good readers here.

        I think we CAN choose certain behaviors over others that do shape our lives to an extent. I can choose to work hard everyday toward reaching my goals or I can choose to lie in bed all day and watch television.

        But for the most part, we have no control over what happens in our lives. And when something happens, it’s a fact. You can’t argue with a fact. Some people do the best they can and work hard everyday and never realize their dreams while there are others whose success and fortune practically falls into their laps. Outcomes happen regardless of our intent sometimes.

      35. I think one can have brain cells and shape one’s own life while also taking the position that things will turn out the way they were meant to be! How is that for a compromise?

      36. SMH, compromise. Now you’re speaking my language! Sometimes there really is no middle ground and honestly, the debates where the participants just have to agree to disagree are the most interesting.

      37. MB, I think you are confusing having no opinion with not judging others opinions (or at least not judging them for having an opinion) which is the basis for a healthy debate. You have demonstrated that you have valid opinions.

      38. Thank you Mercy, that makes sense. If I don’t challenge anybody on their opinions, there really is nothing to debate. (And therefore no “conflict”) You may have hit the nail on the head.

      39. I think I am in one of those debates with HG, MB! But I also think he will eventually come around when he gives it more thought 🙂 (because I am right haha)

      40. Only to your point that you do not have an opinion either way. You do, it’s just that your fear of offending someone overrides your desire to voice it.

      41. NA, I really don’t feel like I do on this debate. Do you think that it could be a subconscious fear?

      42. MB
        I misunderstood. I thought you meant you don’t have strong opinions generally, not just with regard to the debate here.

      43. NA, you didn’t misunderstand. I DON’T have strong opinions generally. After I read your comment last night I began to look at my views on the issues that are normally inflammatory.

        Abortion: personal choice. I’m not judging yours, don’t judge mine.
        Death penalty: ok with me as long as I don’t have to do it and you’re sure they’re guilty.
        Organ donor: you won’t need it after you’re dead, and I don’t care if you take them with you (personal choice) but if you don’t want to share, don’t take one from somebody else that did
        Religion: you do you, I’ll do me. Nobody knows for sure what happens when we die. There’s no point arguing about it.

        See the pattern here? I truly am a live and let live person. I will not be told what to think though. I will listen to what you have to say and make my own decision which is always subject to change as I learn more and see other perspectives. I hope that doesn’t make me sound like a spineless jellyfish. I just don’t feel the need to try and convince people that my point of view is correct. It might be, it might not be, or there may not be one that is correct at all.

        But there is some validity in your observation. I HATE HATE HATE conflict. I don’t like to offend people. I do want everybody to think I’m “nice”. Maybe these defense mechanisms are what drive my views and subconsciously, that is why I don’t have strong opinions.

        I will stand up for somebody else in a heartbeat. And I will stand up for myself (not in a heartbeat) but only when I’ve had enough and there’s no other way to peacefully put a halt to it. I’ll try everything else first to avoid it getting ugly.

      44. MB
        When someone says they don’t have an opinion I think of the person who when faced with a question, decision, or opinion, always defers or says “oh I don’t know”, whatever you decide”, or “you know best”. They think they appear as being easy going, but it comes across (to me) as either low self esteem or not wanting to be judged or held accountable (in their mind) for their decision, opinion, etc.

        You gave opinions in your example. You just didn’t expand on them, but you did bring up something else that people differ in opinion on: what constitutes discussion or debate and what people consider as conflict or “getting ugly” as you put it.

        When people expand on their opinion they are only stating why they believe it or how they arrived at that opinion. When done constructively, (as here when HG engages in debate) the people involved are not asking others to accept their opinion as their own. They are merely exchanging ideas and concepts that helped them arrive at theirs and airing it. I love debate (both involved and as an observer) because I always take something new away from it. I love to hear what other people think. I find it fascinating how we can all look at something and see something different. Sometimes opinions are very strong yes, that shows passion and I love to see that people have passion also. Some people view any differing discussion as an argument or as personal, and they feel angst and want it to stop and just have everyone agree. Even when giving an observation, it is just that. The person is telling you what they see. Now you can just mutter fuck you under your breath if you don’t like it, realize it has been taken the wrong way and provide additional information, or you may think: I didn’t realize I gave that impression. It is up to you what you do with that information. It was just an observation.

        HG has always encouraged constructive discussion and debate. It is stimulating and a learning opportunity for all (engaged or observing) and I believe it is one of the reasons this site is so successful. It should not be viewed (my opinion) as an excercise in ‘winning’ but of course there are always those who view it as such. Different story when someone just flies in and starts dropping bombs with nothing to substantiate and won’t engage in discussion. That speaks for itself and nothing is gained there.

        Back to you. You have opinions. Don’t be afraid to offer them or expand on them. Not everyone will love them or you, and that’s life. World won’t end.

      45. NA, I’m so glad you replied! As you know, I respect you and enjoy hearing your perspective on things. From the feedback I’ve received, I am disappointed in myself. I feel like you and WS are speaking about somebody else, because I don’t feel like that girl and that’s not what I want the world to see. Must be some kind of reality gap and through my honesty here, you see the real me. The one I don’t want to be. Anyway, it’s no secret that my self-esteem is in the toilet. That is a fact and something I have always and believe I will always struggle with. It is difficult to ascertain the personality of a person with only snippets, but if I’m being honest with myself, you guys probably have a pretty good idea. I’ve shared more here than anywhere, ever. Those that know me in real life “pick” at me in an endearing way about always wanting to keep the peace and seeing every situation through rose colored glasses and finding something good in everything and everybody. However, they follow me. I have always been a leader as long as I can remember. People listen to me and trust that I have their best interests at heart. In any situation, I am always nudged toward the helm by the group whether that is my official role or not. It has always been that way. I think that is why it is difficult for me to hear that you guys see me as basically a dish rag!

        Thank you for reading all of that and I ask that you stay with me on this next part and give your honest feedback, please. This is a real-life example of MB in action from the blog today. A look inside of me if you will (don’t get scared! ha ha)

        It involves the mermaid and her comments about “The Tudorettes” as well as the attack on K, which I don’t remember was mermaid or AC. Doesn’t matter either way. Logically, I know these comments are about the person that expressed them and not about K or me as she/he doesn’t know either of us. Could be any number of reasons. Jealously, rawness, contempt toward us by proxy at her replacement? I don’t know, but I know it isn’t really about me or any of the other people on the blog.

        However, my shame tells me otherwise. I have been criticized albeit by someone that has never met me and it hurts in my gut. My shame has been activated by being judged. I feel small, insignificant, and bad. “Worshipping” HG is wrong and I have made a complete fool of myself. How could I be so stupid? She is right to say that about me.

        As soon as I saw the belittlement of K’s contributions here, my face got hot. I got angry. My emotions almost made me lash out at said commentator. In fact, I typed out several replies and did not send them. I am one that will stand up for other people as I saw this as an injustice. In this particular case. My logic took hold I decided that I didn’t want to play into the hands of this person (who is obviously trying to get a rise out of somebody, anybody) and if K wanted to respond, she is way better at taking up for herself than I could ever be and starting a conflict with this person would feel bad and I would end up feeling ashamed by my behavior and what I said as I did about the BBC broadcast.

        I was also disappointed that HG didn’t “stand up” for K. She is an asset of his after all and the belittlement of her was uncalled for and I wanted him to protect her. Initially, my heart sank that he did not. Then I considered that he doesn’t do emotional responses (he keeps a cool head). And just because someone said that doesn’t mean it is true. He also didn’t want (and shouldn’t) involve himself in such a petty and unproductive use of his time. So, that has been let go and my disgusting worship of HG is once again on display to be judged and I am humiliated in public for my ignorance and naivety.

        So there you go. My thought process and my emotions as best as I can articulate right now through my tears of shame.

      46. I did not need to defend K, she (and many other readers) know that I appreciate her contributions. The comment attacking did not merit a response.

      47. Yes, I know HG. That is why it did not get a response from me either. It was not a criticism of you, but an example of my thought process. Fucked up as it is.

      48. That person is a loser and will definitely not be invited to our party, whereas K on the other hand, will be made guest of honor. Now, it seems to me it will be held in my place because that Bible Belt thing sounds like not my kind of party, MB. No offense …

      49. MB
        Girl! I want to start this off by saying that yes, NarcAngel and I see you for the person you are. But that is a beautiful person. A kind and funny person. A person who cares about others and constantly reaches out with empathy. The MB we see is NOT “a dish rag” and there is NO reason that her self esteem should be in the toilet. She is strong. I have no doubt she is a leader that others instinctively follow.

        Do not be disappointed in yourself. You’ve got no more reason than any of the others of us to feel that way. I try to understand where all this negative self-talk in you comes from, but I struggle with it. All I can figure is for some reason you’re stuck with that image of being shameful in your head and can’t see past it to reality. But it’s just an illusion, MB. An illusion only you are seeing. You are in reality an awesome lady. And that awesome person is who we see.

        I’m unsure why you’d think I see you as a dishrag. Because I disagree with you on some things? I’m an off-the-wall nutcase! I disagree with tons of people on all kinds of things. Usually I stay quiet like you do to keep from making waves and stirring up anger and resentment because that would cause me pain from feeling all those emotions. If you’re referring to the “meant to be” debate, I thought you threw that out there to get other’s opinions? I don’t judge you for not agreeing with me, I was just laying out my opinions and reasoning.

        Ugly comments meant to denigrate and hurt people blow thru the blog periodically. Sometimes they’re made by visiting narcs, sometimes by people with strong narc traits and their empathy shut off. Sometimes probably for other reasons. They can hurt, especially when we feel targeted.

        My way of handling this is to pray for whoever was hurtful that they find the inner peace that they are obviously lacking. Other people’s words often hurt me initially, but I never let other people’s words make me feel bad about myself. What other people think about me has no impact on who I am and it has no impact on who you are either.

        For words to hurt us, we have to give them that power. Don’t give so much power to other people’s words, MB. Seize that power for yourself! Seize that power and blast glitter all over anyone who tries to make you feel ashamed!

        Your constant and loyal friend,
        Windstorm ❤️

      50. Two of the most respected women on this site and they refer to themselves as a dish rag and off-the-wall nut case. Im a glass half full kind of person. MB I just bought beautiful emerald dishrags to match my kitchen chairs and windstorm I surround myself with off the wall thinkers. Life would be boring if we conform to the same way if thinking.

      51. Windstorm, as always thank you for your kind words and encouragement. I don’t know why my inner voice hates me so much and torments me either. It is a bit more muffled today and is tolerable. I would like to explore the issue of my octane of “fuel” that abates these feelings. External validation does seems to help. (Which scares me as that sounds narcissistic.) I don’t know what self love is and have no idea where to start looking. I honestly feel like it’s too late in my life and I need to focus on coping mechanisms more than trying to “heal”.

        And you are not a nutcase! I think very highly of you and respect you very much. I would love to meet you and your Pretzel one day! I’m serious.

        Your constant and loyal friend, MB ❤️

      52. MB
        It’s never too late to heal. I’m nearly 20 years older than you and I’m still working in it.

        Not a nutcase? The culture where you live is very similar to here. What would your neighbors think of an old woman who isolates herself, practices things from several non-Christian religions, is a bleeding-heart liberal Democrat, thinks all truth is relative and marches to the beat of a drummer only she can hear? 😝

        I’ve never gotten much from external validation, other than a momentary pleasure. Interpersonal interactions are a mine-field for me. When I need fuel I go outside alone and open myself to nature and the universe.

        I’d be interested to hear what kind of interactions fuel you, if you wanted to share. Or what type pull you down. Maybe trying to explain it to me would help you make sense of it as well. But that’s totally your call.

        I usually get a pretty journal and write out all my feelings rather than sharing them. My deep personal feelings are so “out there,” I don’t want to give anyone who cares about me nightmares, or have them staying up at night praying for my soul. I’ve always felt it was sad how many people only want to hear things they believe and agree with.

      53. Windstorm

        “I’ve always felt it was sad how many people only want to hear things they believe and agree with.”

        I agree. I think living insular is not really living at all.

      54. NarcAngel
        One of the things my father taught me that is central to my outlook was to always keep an open mind. One of the side effects of keeping an open mind is needing to search out new ideas and data to compare with what you already have. I do love being around people who agree with me, don’t get me wrong. But to feel alive I need to always be acquiring new info. Picking apart other people’s opinions for new info and new perspectives helps keep life from being boring.

      55. WS, I ruminated on this for 24ish hours. First of all, all of the things you mentioned don’t make you a nutcase. They make you unique. You are one of a kind. I’ve always had a great deal of respect for a person that forms their own beliefs and opinions. And yes, the culture here is similar to where you live. People judge, but that doesn’t make you a nutcase. That makes them close minded.

        This is the part I ruminated on. I’ve always known that certain interactions put me on “cloud nine” and others make me feel weak and disgusting. I hesitate to use the word fuel. I think that is reserved for narcissists. First, for what hurts me the most. Being called down/judged for my behavior. HG talks about the fuel matrix and proximity and frequency. These are the applicable here to an extent as well. My shame at being called down/judged is intensified by the following: if it’s in front of a group, if it’s in front of witness (especially a subordinate), if it’s by an authority figure, if it’s by a man and the number one intensifier is if it is due to trying to meet my own needs. Keep in mind that I can feel “called down/judged” by nearly anything. Everyday example: I’m turning into a restaurant parking lot. I have to stop and wait for oncoming traffic. The man behind me in his fancy sports car lays on the horn and makes gestures I can see in the mirror (obviously a narc). I feel ashamed that I am holding him up from whatever he needs to do because I’m waiting to turn to go into a restaurant because I need to eat. Why couldn’t I have picked a different restaurant? Why couldn’t I have turned around and come back so I would be on the correct side and not have to wait on traffic? It’s times like this that I want to disappear. I’ve been known to get out of his way and choose another restaurant. True story.

        As far as what puts me on cloud nine, I’ll put that in another post.

      56. MB
        Every opinion is just someone’s perspective. When I say I am a nutcase, I mean part of my society considers me a nutcase (not all of it). It has absolutely nothing to do with how I view myself. If anything I draw a perverse sort of pride from not “fitting in.” I value being unique and different, of being who I want to be regardless of what anyone else thinks.

        So I’m trying to understand your example of being “called down/judged” – am I right in thinking that the facts are irrelevant? It doesn’t matter whether you have actually done anything wrong? Because in your example you have not. You didn’t cut him off, you’re not making an illegal turn. You’re just driving normally and doing what anyone would do.

        So feeling judged shames you even when it’s obvious that you’re being judged unfairly? Do you realize at the time that it is unfair? Do you assume that whenever someone strongly disagrees with you that they must be right and you be wrong?

        Sorry for so many questions and don’t feel obligated to answer if you’d rather not. I’m just trying to understand. I really appreciate you trying to explain it to me. 😊

      57. WS, I really appreciate you asking me the questions that make me think about it. Yes, the facts are irrelevant. Everybody’s needs come before mine and I always feel wrong when somebody disagrees with me. I always feel “in the way”. But it goes beyond feeling wrong. I feel I am bad, worthless. Guilt is: I did something bad. Shame is: I am something bad. I am shame bound. This is way beyond guilt.

      58. MB
        Maybe that’s why it’s so hard for me to understand. I understand guilt, but I’m not so familiar with shame. I haven’t really felt shame since I was young. Now it’s my turn for introspection to see if I can remember how I got beyond shame.

        I’m pretty sure the main tactic I used was to search for evidence outside my home (where ideas of shame abounded). I analyzed how my colleagues and teachers viewed me, my achievements, my grade point average, things I’d accomplished. I used these to build up my self-image. They were empirical evidence that I was not the shameful person my mother seemed to think I was.

        There was an adversarial aspect to it, though. Me against her. It was obvious to me where my shameful feelings originated. Do you know where yours came from? Can you remember the earliest things that made you feel shame? I’d bet money someone systematically taught you to feel shame.

        If you can pinpoint who it was, then maybe you can analyse and figure out why they did it. Might help you in overcoming it now. Once you understand how/why it happened, you can begin to gather evidence to disprove them. Just a thought.

      59. WS, my theory of my shame is this. My baby sister was born when I was 14 months old. I was breastfed to the cup. Never took a bottle. 14-16 months is a critical window of a child’s development whereby they are beginning to see themselves as a separate being. It is when they learn that if mom leaves the room, she can be trusted to come back. That she is still there even though you can’t see her. I was no longer the baby. I had been replaced at my mother’s bosom by this more worthy being. I was essentially abandoned. My authentic self was deemed flawed and unlovable and had to be separated from in order to survive. If my primary caregiver rejected me, I am bad and cannot be allowed to exist. At this point, I could’ve become a narcissist or I could’ve become what I am. As we’ve been talking, I remembered hating my baby sister. She didn’t do anything to me. I could look at her and my vision would blur and I swear I could’ve killed her such was my rage. My next baby sister born the next year after was also held in utter contempt through no fault of her own. I never had these feelings about my older sister who of course existed before I came along. When I was very young, I was physically violent towards the two younger ones. At age 6 or 7 after an attack on my youngest sister where she was actually injured by me, I remember making the conscious decision that I must not let my temper get out of control like that again. It felt uncomfortable. Since then, the only times I have felt that level of rage was when I was unmedicated. It makes me wonder if I was testing the self defense mechanisms that I had available to me to keep my lost self from surfacing. Since my mother was not narcissistic, that behavior was not modeled to me. I think I dodged the bullet of narcissism. Had she been a narcissist, I could’ve been a monster.

        As for my excellent grades, my achievements, etc. They were not for building my self image and they did not do so. They were to make me lovable and acceptable. People pleasing reduces the chances of being criticized which is what focuses my awareness to the existence of that flawed, unlovable, useless self that must be kept locked away. I cannot bear for that to be all there is to me and I will do almost anything to avoid that horrible feeling. I am at the mercy of that lost self as much as the narcissist. It’s just that my self defense mechanism hurts me and theirs hurts others. As an empath, obviously I’d rather have it that way.

        Just my theory. I’ve done no therapy and don’t plan to. I’d rather be the me I want to be. I’ve survived this long as I am. As I’ve said before. I don’t want to look upon the nothing that I’d be if all the layers were pulled back. I wouldn’t exist.

      60. MB
        “People pleasing reduces the chances of being criticized”

        That was not my experience. Maybe because I lived with narcissists. People pleasing was just another cause for ridicule and denigration.

        Being an only child, I don’t know how I would have viewed a sister. I’m sure my mother would have triangulated and tried to make us hate each other. Certainly if I’d had a brother he’d have been her golden child and I’d have been thrown on the trash heap.

        I think about my daughter’s kids, though – 6, 4, 3, 1 and the new baby coming in February. And also my kids who were 2 & 1 when my daughter was born. There was never any jealousy. New babies were special gifts for the whole family. But that doesn’t just happen naturally.

        This wasn’t because my daughter’s children are superior in any way. This was because my daughter works very hard to move the last baby on the the next stage in all aspects (sleeping, feeding, toys, ect.) before the new baby arrives, so they don’t feel like they are supplanted in any way.

        The older baby is taught to take an active role as “big helper” from the beginning – fetching diapers and toys, soothing the baby – because it’s his/her new baby, too. My daughter often tells the older baby how much the new baby loves them and looks up to them because they will always be the baby’s big sister. I did the same with my children. Older women explained that I had to do this to keep the previous baby from being jealous and resentful or I’d not have known how important this is.

        I know you’ve said that your mother was very young. Maybe she didn’t know how to do this or understand why it was important? But if you can understand the cause of why you felt shame and felt inferior, do you not also see that it was a natural reaction on your part?

        Just because your sisters reacted differently means nothing. Anyone with multiple children knows that children are all different. They each come with specific needs and fears. Your needs sound like they were not met when you were very small. But not having your needs met was not your fault and is no reflection of who you were inside – then or now.

      61. WS, people pleasing is my self defense. It’s what I know and what works for me. Make no mistake, I stand up if I need to. It just works for me to stay out of the way and choose my battles. The upside is, if I get mad, people pay attention! Believe me!

        Yes, my mother was very young. She had just turned 19 when I was born and already had a one year old. Her upbringing was far from sufficient. Her father was a narcissist. My father has some highly narcissistic traits, but doesn’t have full blown NPD as far as I can determine from my HG education. His upbringing had “issues” although they were only whispered about so I’m not sure of the full extent. I think they did the best they could with the modeling that they had and with the limited resources that were available. The family was quite poor at that time. I don’t blame either of them, but I absolutely did not have my emotional needs met by my family of origin.

        Forming a theory of what I think happened helps, but it doesn’t help me get that lost self back. She will never realize what she could have been if her seeds of self had been nurtured. She will forever be that rotten kernel in the pit of my stomach that wasn’t good enough to deserve love. I fear I will spend the rest of my life being sure she isn’t seen, heard or felt by me or by others. It’s in my DNA at this point. That which never grew into existence cannot be resurrected. I hate to sound so stubborn, but I really don’t think it is treatable as there is nothing worth having there. It’s stunted. Arrested. Frozen in time. Maybe that’s just my emotional thinking talking because I’m afraid. Either way, I’ll just keep taking my meds, people pleasing, avoiding confrontation, and craving the opportunities to help people so that I can feel worthy, not empty. I’ve worked hard for 45 years to be the MB I want the world to see. I can’t stop now. 🙂

        Thank you for listening. I’ve enjoyed the attention and the opportunity to be heard. (Even if you aren’t a man! Ha ha) I feel like I can exist here. It’s the perfect mix between being invisible and being able to explore.

        PS: WS, you can friend me on Insta if you want to. It’s not a “real” account. I’m MB on there too. I’ve only posted a couple of pics. But if I knew you would see them, I might post more for my treasured friend. I almost took a picture of a crow eating at my bird feeder for you over the weekend, but he left too fast!

        Thank you HG! For allowing us this outlet. As I’ve said many times, this is a special place. Thank you for moderating all my crazy! I don’t know if any of my theories hold water. My best friend told me there has got to be more to it than that. You must have been horribly abused to feel the way you do. I really don’t think so. I’m good at stuffing, but I think I would know if that was the case.

      62. MB
        It would only be an audience to you. I’m never trusting IG in my photos!! I know FB is not trustworthy and they own IG.

        Almost no one has memories from less than 3 yrs old.

      63. I’m glad you said that about the spawning vat HG. When she said almost no one had memories before 3 years while she was talking about not trusting IG. That threw me off. I thought she was afraid the pictures would vanish at the 3 year mark or something. No worries, I’m with y’all now. Must be my ditzy dust!

      64. WS, if I can trust a narc with my photos, IG is nothing! Ha! You don’t have to, obviously. It was just a thought. I like the idea of connecting on there just in case narcsite…well I don’t want to think about that. HG is immortal.

        Although we don’t have memories before age three doesn’t mean we aren’t affected developmentally by our experiences. Or were you saying there may have been abuse that I wouldn’t remember? My feeling is that if there was, it would have continued.

      65. Yes, I meant you would not remember the abuse. It might not have continued if it had been a product of particular stress for your parents at the time. Plus, we do all learn. I imagine your parents became better parents with experience.

        But if they were barely holding things together with you and your older sister, having a third baby so soon might have been too much for inexperienced, young parents. By the time your next sister came along, they may have gotten things figured out better.

        Yeah, I know what you mean about liking connections outside the blog. I’ve given up trying to connect with NarcAngel thru her blog. She probably doesn’t even check it. And I’m sure not going to cast any stones at someone who wants to stay hidden.

      66. Windstorm
        You’re right – I don’t check my blog. It was only opened because I thought it was necessary to ‘like’ comments. There is no content. I don’t know how (or trust my tech skills) to accept some requests and be sure it is closed to others. Also to be honest, I don’t know that I can share outside of here. This has been the only place I have ever trusted to release some of my information. I have never spoken of these things aloud even to my husband. Sometimes I look at what I have shared and feel it’s even too much and yet it is only the tip of the iceberg. Know this though – if I am ever to let anyone in (and I never say never), I would accept your request.

      67. NarcAngel
        It’s difficult to imagine you keep all this concealed from everyone IRL. Maybe because I always used speaking out openly as a defense method (works well with midrangers who’re worried about their façade.)

        You’ll appreciate this. They’ve closed all the schools for several counties around today because we got 1/2 inch of snow and it’s 10 degrees (-12C). 😄

      68. Windstorm
        I’m sure people know there is something behind the way that I am, but they get no details from me. My husband can gather (from comments that have been made to and from my family in his presence, and from the way that I react to some things) his own conclusions, but again, no details from me. I have never trusted anyone not to use them against me. He knows that I spend time blogging but no details. I have discussed narcissism with others (friends, co-workers) and referred only to my Stepfather as being one and directed them to HG’s articles. Because no one knows any details they would not know who I am here (or at least none of them have raised it). Other little girls had doll houses. I can my own Compartment building and I was a security concious landlord lol.

        Bunch of pussies down there. It’s -37 tonight here (no dogs barking thank god). I remember when the Mayor of Toronto called in the army once to clear snow (but it was a couple feet of snow and affecting many things) and people were both incensed and amused. This is Canada! Lol. I thought it was not a bad plan – it’s not like they were doing anything anyway.

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