I Feel FOR You – HG Tudor on BBC Radio 4

NARCS AND NARCISSISM - HG TUDOR ON BBC RADIO 4

Last October I was interviewed by journalist Jolyon Jenkins at a BBC studio for a programme he was producing and presenting with regard to narcissists and narcissism. It was an engaging interview and Mr Jenkins asked interesting and pertinent questions ; it was a productive discussion. That interview has been cherrypicked along with interviews from other people involved in the ‘world of narcissism and the broadcast ‘I Feel For You – Narcs and Narcissism’ is the result.

Below you will find the description of the programme and a link to listen to it on demand.

I am interested in your observations concerning the programme as a whole, the portrayal of narcissism and awareness of the same and your comments concerning the other people interviewed. I look forward to, as ever, your interesting and thought-provoking comments.

‘At a time when we’re being told we need more empathy, some experts claim that narcissism – empathy’s evil twin – is on the rise. Narcissism has vaulted off the psychotherapist’s couch, sprinted away from the psychiatric ward, and is now squatting in the mainstream of popular conversation. Social media seems obsessed with “narcs”, and with detecting narcissism personality disorder in people. It may or may not be a coincidence that we ended up with an apparent world-class narcissist in the White House at just the time when we seemed to be undergoing a public crisis about narcissism and narcissists. Blogs and books about narcissists are everywhere. Jolyon Jenkins talks to people who make a living from advising the public about narcissists, and a self-confessed celebrity narcissist who offers consultations to people who think they may be living with one of “his kind”. The evidence that there really is more narcissism around seems thin, but that doesn’t mean to say that we shouldn’t take it seriously when it flips into a personality disorder.’

Producer/presenter: Jolyon Jenkins

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00020y4

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232 Comments

  1. I’ve just listened to the interview. Unfortunately, it sounds like NPD is still a very misunderstood disorder (surprise, surprise). There is so much more than vanity, arrogance and a grandiose sense of self to it. I am so, so glad I found this blog. And I am sick of all the supposed NPD experts creating confusion (even though, I have to say, some victims-turned-psychologists seem to have understood the disorder quite well and have written a couple of good books). Finally, I wish I could tell Mr Jenkins that just because HG has altered some of his behaviours as a consequence of the interaction with the good doctors, it does NOT mean narcissists can change -because there can be no change!!!! HG is a completely different story. Read his work!!!!!

  2. Enjoyed this so much ! Very well done .
    I liked your comment about not owing any loyalty to other narcissists .

    The part about cluster B personalties walking freely (un)diagnosed did sound like as if they “we’are” all monsters . It could be true if they feel that way . This interview has been very usefull for both off my personalties . I could be in denial about having BPD or i’m struggeling with no sense of accountability strongly believe i’am a good person . Great thing to work on.

    I did think last week about us using “my” narc etc. Is a bit strange so it made me laugh what was said about people commenting online in this manner.

    I did love the way you speak logical reasoning a littlebit too much ha ! I guess I still have a type and its narcissists so wrong ….

    Much love one off your confused students

  3. This interview was very interesting. Overall, I think it’s great that HG’s name and the subject of narcissism is becoming more mainstream and that the personality disorder is being explained to the general public and that narcissistic traits are being talked about.

    I can understand a lot of the comments here that found the host was downplaying the very real damage of NPD to victims and that he made it sound like some kind of popular way to earn “click-bait” etc. I also objected to that. It’s a serious psychological subject and definitely not some kind of YouTube fad. I think the host’s own personality and tone of voice came across as sounding a bit arrogant and ‘superior’, so perhaps it was his way of trying to stay on top of the subject while not really knowing or understanding how complex it all is. It’s a big topic to try to discuss and understand in half an hour.

    As an “introduction” to narcissism, I think it’s very good. I also think that some of the blanket statements made by the so-called ‘experts’ can be misleading and need more clarification. For instance, I think that as a society, people in general have fewer narcissistic traits as they get older. It becomes less important ‘generally’ to keep up with current fashions, or to look/be a certain way, or do/have certain things. However, a person who has NPD does not get less narcissistic as they get older. If anything, their narcissism becomes more practiced and subtle as they learn how to manipulate and get what they want. I can see how subtle differences in meaning like that could cause confusion in people who don’t know much about narcissism or may jump to a conclusion that wasn’t intended. It’s a broad topic and not easy to explain quickly.

    I remember when I first started learning about the subject several years ago now. At first, I had a lot of unanswered questions and came to many conclusions that I now see were either wrong or not very well thought out. At that time, people were describing narcissists as monsters, reptiles, vampires etc, which was very far-fetched, but when knowledge on the subject is thin on the ground and it’s not widely discussed, those kinds of descriptions are fairly common. I too was guilty of thinking about them as ‘arseholes’ and my own emotional thinking just made me hate them. With knowledge, logic and greater understanding, I realise there’s a lot more to it. The human brain is capable of many unique ways of adapting and there’s many subtle nuances to understand.

    Even now, several years later after reading more and learning a lot all the time, I can see I still have a lot to learn.

    Also,what struck me listening to this video and reading all the various comments is how people seem to need to label things. We need to give a name to types of behaviours, even when the labels themselves may not be that well understood. I think it’s necessary to be able to discuss and understand things and it gives us a form of cognitive assurance to define a person as having NPD or BPD or being co-dependent or being able to tick certain boxes from a list of behaviours. I’m not so sure it’s that clear-cut or easy to define though. I don’t think anyone can be diagnosed by simply ticking a questionnaire, however, it may be a good start if you want to become more mindful of your own thought patterns or preferences etc.

    I think labels have a way of separating us and creating differences that are not that different. If we hear that someone is co-dependent and someone else has BPD, it puts each of those people in separate compartments and draws a line between them. But they both may have some similar behaviours and both can also appear quite ‘normal’ too. So it’s all relative and can get confusing. Understanding is great, but causing prejudices and stigmas due to judgements is not so great.

    Perhaps it would be easier to define what “normal” is first, if it exists at all. Maybe normal is the biggest illusion because it may not even truly exist. If ‘normal’ is the middle of the spectrum, then anything that is either left or right of that could be more easily understood without the need to stigmatise or put people in compartments.

    1. Interesting comment about defining ‘normal,’ Wisernow. My niece is studying neuroscience and one of the things that she told me is that there is great difficulty in defining ‘normalcy’ in the human brain when trying to exclude pathological populations (that is, to delineate what a normal brain vs a pathological one looks like). Normal might indeed be the biggest illusion.

  4. I enjoyed the interview. Ive watched a few vids on the topic of our world becoming more narcissistic and the roots to why this is. Personally i think its the internet and social media. The creators of the internet and social media were antisocial narcissists who spent a lot of time alone and wanted an outlet to live out their fantasy lives and manipulate. The platform of social media was created and i think has moulded people to be more narcissistic. Immediate gratification whenever you need it and creating a facade online of a picture perfect life.
    I think another reason is the disintegration of family units due to the fact everything is inflated in cost and many need 2 or 3 jobs to pay their bills. Childrens parents and examples are on the internet. They learn thru sources that are narcissistic like the music industry and celebrities.
    As well as the lack of spiritualism. People have lost sight of the big picture and zoom in on the here and now and themselves not why they were given life and their role on earth. Its very self serving.
    Loved hearing you HG and wish it wouldve been longer!

  5. HG are you Frankie Boyle?

    I’ve just been listening to him and he appears to hate him as much as you do.

      1. Lol no but frankie is good with his accents.

        Just realised I missed the most important word out of that statement.

        It should have read ‘he hates JC as much as you do’.

        Interesting though…you answered as if you knew what the missing word was! AS2016

  6. HG,

    Like most Beeb broadcasts, this one tries to be ‘neutral’ and ends up completely unhelpful. Of course they should have given you more time.

    One thing that interested me was the east and west Germany study and the possible rise in NPD due to societal changes/contexts (which to your credit you did mention). This kind of confirms what I have been trying to say on that other thread about morality as a relativistic concept. My argument is that in order for the social – and therefore humans – to survive, some behaviors are simply counter-productive.

    Society (a collective of interdependent humans) matters to how personalities (or personality disorders) and moral behaviors manifest, and even to what is recognized as ‘deviant.’ In fact, the problem with the DSM is that it is itself the product of an individualistic ethos. What it contains, what it focuses on, how psychiatry is conducted, etc are all culturally specific.

    It is a battle, if you will, between individualistic interests and social ones. Can individuals pursuing only self interest win in the end? To my mind, they cannot over the long term because people need other people in order to survive as a species. I am not talking about an individual’s lifespan as clearly plenty of narcs are successful, including you, though that might not universally be the case. I am trying to paint a larger picture of social dysfunction of which NPD is a manifestation.

    How it becomes a disorder as opposed to a collection of narcissistic traits is another question altogether but I think today’s society values and amplifies the sorts of characteristics that narcs have in spades. As always, follow the money (and my two cents).

  7. Show of hands…….who here heard Tudor’s interview at the World Narcissistic Abuse Awareness Day telesummit last June? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
    http://www.wnaad.com <——— go visit!

    His interview was MUCH longer than this one, it was much richer in content, NPD wasn’t looked upon as a freakin circus act, or as if it were the “Mental Condition de Jour.” The speakers were damn serious & certainly weren't calling anyone a “celebrity.”
    HG do you still have the interview or the ability to broadcast it again? Or, in its written form? Doubtful I’m sure.
    (And BTW, you’re going to mess around and get your voice recognized. Your ex’s are all over England & I bet some are very interested in knowing more about NPD—they’ll get on YouTube and, oops.)

    Experts from around the world spoke on multiple topics relating to NPD. It was fascinating. Some speakers were more interesting than others but of course we all know who the most interesting was. 😉 Their website even has a store & I bought a T-shirt y’all!
    While wearing my T-shirt out, I’ve had a male and female each stop me in the grocery store to tell me their narc tales. I’m nodding and nodding and meanwhile….my ice cream is melting. It’s all good.

    Many people are WELL AWARE of NPD and the carnage Narcs leave behind. HG has been a backdoor blessing to us all but lest we not forget….at the end of the day, he’s still a Greater. I pray I never come face to face with one. I’m not stupid; I know therein lies my weakness.

    1. 69Revolver, I listened to most of the speakers. I love when the interviewers express their own epiphanies while conversing with HG. He does not disappoint! Intelligence, charm, civility, confidence are all very attractive, powerful traits that resonate in his interviews. Also, he encourages no question is a “dumb” question. There exists at times only clarification of context and an accurate or inaccurate response.

      1. E&L, that is one thing I observed about HG from the day I first heard him on YouTube (and actually, it was yet ANOTHER interview but I can’t remember the show. It was a nice, long interview and I remember at the end having to take a moment to collect my jaw from off the floor).
        He’s exceptionally patient with the interviewer, he’s not smug or condescending, and he’s thoughtful in his answers. I know in real life, he’s a great listener. !

  8. The broadcast is too short for them to have so many sources commenting. They should have focused on you, and asked you why you think you’ve become so popular even to a celebrity type status. They should have presented the damage it causes to people so listeners could relate it to their own experiences. The part about the college students and full length mirrors, I thought, reinforced the old ideas of people thinking it’s about being conceited. And then saying it’s a youth thing that people grow out of with age completely misses it as being an actual disorder.

    I wish the narcsite blog had been mentioned, so people don’t think you’re just out doing consults. Also they didn’t explain why people have consults with you, and the great progress your followers have achieved because of you.

    I didn’t realize you’re a celebrity there. Are people that widely aware of it over there? Come to America and do an interview- this is the time considering the president as was mentioned in the broadcast. People here would be very interested.

    One thing I would suggest is coming up with a reason why you’re doing this site and helping empaths. I don’t think you should reveal that it’s because it amuses you. To correct people’s misconceptions about narcissism is good – I think you’ve said because this is your legacy which is important to a narcissist’s immortality in living on.

    1. Thank you for your observations Kel. The US is a receptive audience and also has a cultural ethos of embracing self-help and self-improvement without feeling it is ‘gimmicky’. The Brits (largely) are uncomfortable with such approaches (though it is shifting). In broad terms, Americans prefer to ‘talk it out’, Brits shut up shop and suppress.

  9. HG, as always, you were spot on, but the balance of this interview is another example of what seems to vex the psychological and coaching communities. Many of the so-called experts lack a complete or accurate understanding of narcissism (and as a result can unwittingly give poor advice). The lack of clear and accurate definitions for human psychological traits, adaptations and defenses is apparent in many areas of psychology. This is precisely why your work is so different and so important. You take a rather scientific approach in defining the narcissist by school and cadre and further delineate motivations and behaviors by situation. No one else attempts this, nor offers such chillingly accurate accounts of narcissistic behavior. This is why your audience can so identify with your writing. It seems as if you personally know their narc, because without knowing them, you effortlessly identify and even accurately predict their behaviors. Genius approach from one who is self aware and keenly aware of other’s behaviors and motivations. Thank you HG and please do continue to share your interviews. P.S. Your revelation at the end was surprising. I’d love to hope you altered your behavior to benefit others, but I’m guessing you did so to operate even more efficiently?

      1. I have also endorsed you and you didn’t thank me nor have you expressed appreciation to me for doing so. Your lack of neglect is as vulgar as an excess of appreciation.

        1. Have you? Do tell and please do show me where you told me this and if there has been an oversight you may have my gratitude.

      2. You should know I did. So you don’t know everything that is posted on your site. Aha! Use your search functionality or ask your moderator or refer to your librarian. – – K stop laughing dear and go fetch Tudor what he needs. Make haste and take your adjutant Ms. Pastiche with you.

        1. I do, but given there are over 228 000 comments I do not recall them all. I am not searching for it – you assert it is there, identify where it is, otherwise I doubt you actually did. If you can demonstrate you did, I will stand corrected. Over to you.

          1. HG

            You know I read everything here and have found it is a hard habit to break, alongside you are right and I am being pigheaded and stubborn, yet slowly coming around as logic is replacing the emotional kick back I had to deal with.

            Unless Aunt Claira has gone under a different name I have not seen anything and is just trying to provoke you.

            It also seems you have an instigator that is back also full of jealousy and envy to.

          2. It does have that appearance does it not Contagion? We shall see if the evidence is provided…..

  10. Excellent exposure, Hg, kudos on this interview, and thank you for sharing with us.

    I took the opportunity to share with several colleagues, forming a round table of discussion – including psychologists knowledgeable about NPD.
    After listening to the production, we largely agreed on several points.

    The interviewer’s stance was viewing the topic of “narcissism” in general, and as many have said – a mere popular psychology trend, a flippant fad, only briefly mentioning abuse at all, and focusing on the money-making aspect. His reference to everyone except the researchers was by asking – are you qualified, calling sharing knowledge click bait, including you, Hg, asking about the monetary prospect of your consultations, not addressing the apparent need for help it represents.

    Calling the increase in narcissism that Hg cites a “moral panic” about narcissism, and a telling moment – when he acknowledges he fits several of the diagnostic criteria himself…

    He also revealed he tends to see it as “normal bad behaviour” and it is obvious, as you stated, he conflates NPD and narcissism, failing to see the importance of defining abuse, or at the very least, the damage caused in these relationships.

    What I focused on, Hg, was your contribution. You describe your beginning with the good doctors, in past tense – “imposed,” “I didn’t want to be changed” – and then switch to present tense “I see no reason to change” “I am hugely effective at what I do” – and yet there is an indication of.. change? – you state you saw (past tense) your interaction with the good doctors as a game, and yet their aim of finding a way for you to “cope in what society would say is a more accceptable manner” – there has been progress..

    “I have modified certain behaviours.” *I confess I burst into applause at this* – “without hurting an individual” – This is the most monumental statement in the entire interview. A self-aware narcissist attempting to adjust behaviour so as not to hurt… Wow… Dare I say, in your own statement.. that ugly mistress you profess to hate – Hope, has declared her presence by citing your progress… I, am in stunned awe of this herculean achievement, the real reason for admiration among your many accomplishments… I hope you continue. I certainly will do my part to continue to share you.

    1. Thank you NE and I found your observations about the programme most interesting and thoughtfully considered, thank you for articulating them. There is clearly a scepticism about narcissism and that people are utilising it in an opportunist way which of course is entirely inaccurate. I know what I am. I know what I have done to my victims. Those who read here and contribute know just how far-reaching and devastating our behaviours can be to other people. Naturally I do not disclose the full details of consultations for reasons of confidentiality but if I ever sought and was granted permission to use people’s ‘cases’ (obviously anonymised) this would provide clear evidence of a range of cataclysmic outcomes on the lives of victims. It is not something that has been invented to make a quick buck. It is a huge problem for hundreds of millions of people and the testimonials, the e-mails and so forth I receive not only provide evidence of how people are affected by NPD but furthermore demonstrate how effective my work is at clarifying, generating understanding and achieving freedom. To attach a charge to such provision is no crime. Expertise costs and of course, I provide substantial information gratis. That stated, it is useful to have instances such as this – it enables one to gain understanding of prevailing attitudes, the level of understanding (or misunderstanding), a sense check on what needs to be done and in what direction and it has created discussion and girded the loins of many readers and that in itself is a positive outcome. The subject could have been completely ignored and was not and there is nothing wrong with someone advancing a perception – it gives one a chance and a platform to address any misconception and in that build further my work and legacy and in turn assist more and more people. I am also pleased to note that it caused a round table discussion – you should have recorded it for broadcast!

      1. Had you heard the entirety of the discussion, I wonder of your response.. I believe there was plenty of fuel, often challenge fuel..

        Yes, if a person has not experienced the abuse engendered by the narcissist, people hear about a charming person they know and revert to “but he (she) isn’t like that with me, so it couldn’t be that bad.”

        You would have approved of our drinks.. including a certain bubbly I know has pleased your selective palate.

        We raise our glass to future interviews!

      1. Lol i had to laugh bc my lisyen when i get home was to your interview HG not tje narc.
        No i have no interest in his piece on BBC its a segment having to do with a hobby of his. I think its a voluntary thing he set up. He smooshed a lady from there and thats how he got started.

      2. Yes residual benefits. He likes to be a gigalow of sorts and take advantage of what people have to offer. We used to belong to an organization when he lived here and ive seen him make friends just to use them and now they want nothing to do with him.
        He was married briefly and same scenerio..residual benefits. She booted him out and he went back to the UK boo hooing and smearing. He is definitely a midranger!

  11. The BBC 4 interview wasn’t what I had hoped for but that is ok because at least NPD is being discussed.`

    The Host should have given “The Celebrity Narcissist” more air time and I found his statement about how HG managed to leverage his personality disorder to his advantage by turning himself into a Celebrity Narcissist a bit disconcerting and risible. NPD is a serious public health issue and should be treated with the same gravity as cancer, heart disease and depression and it should not be stigmatized. The interviewer fails to realize that NPD is not a choice “to be bad”, there is no choice about it at all.

    Dr. Tennyson Lee made an excellent point about the medical community’s poor understanding of NPD. General practitioners and nurses should all be trained to detect the signs of NPD in their patients.

    And I found the East and West Germany observations interesting, the individuals that I know, who grew up in communist countries, are all narcissists and I think the validity of that test is spurious.

    HG you are doing a tremendous job teaching everyone here about NPD, thank you. I will be contacting the BBC to express my thoughts, as well.

    1. “I think the validity of that test is spurious.”

      K, those observations about East vs West Germany, as interesting as they are, raised some questions, among others as to the (methodological) limitations. I searched for further information because it interests me from my perspective as a native and I would like to provide some information if HG allows. Those methodological limitations are outlined in the study design – the methods for assessing narcissism and self-esteem were based on self-reports which have limited value for assessing personality” [Vater/Moritz/Roepke 2018). Another most interesting point with regards to limitations concerns potential effects/influence that the transition from collectivistic communist to individualistic society may have had on narcissism and self-esteem – the researchers cannot “exclude confounding differences between the East German and West German cohorts”.

      The results, as stated in the study conclusion, are regarded as “preliminary evidence”.

      The study can be found online for more detailed information: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0188287

    2. Good points, K. I find the whole HG = ‘Celeb Narc’ to be undermining and a back handed compliment vis-a-vis what HG has accomplished. It turns him more into pop trivia, in my opinion, which he is not.

      Am I wrong to say that I really don’t care for most others’ opinions on NPD save for HG? I will acknowledge Dr. Sam, because he is a narc and knows his shit, but I put HG as Top Dog and of course, Top Writer Dog.

      I still love telling people that the best site for relationship and emotional health advice is run by a narcissist sociopath.

      ‘I’m serious. He has the best advice out there. Read it. Listen to him. He is great,’ I say.

      Albeit I might as well say I am an alien species from planet Zolton, with the way they look at me. It’s fucking hilarious.

      I have introduced a number of peeps to your site that way. And they do admit it is good shit once they see it. 😛

      HG. He’s got the good shit.

      1. Thank you Bibi
        It seemed like the Host was “Celebritizing” HG while downplaying the seriousness of the disorder. The impact of NPD on the victims is largely ignored, not to mention the lack of proper knowledge about the disorder itself. HG is the best followed by SV so it is up to us to spread the word about narcsite.

        People look at me funny, too, when I mention that I learned all about NPD from a psychopath but who the hell else can do it?!? Only a narcissist knows how a narcissist thinks.

  12. Two things before I launch into a tirade.

    70 for a consultation? Did rates go up?

    HG’s “gothic” writing conveyed what not one single doctor adequately addressed which are the lies and abuse suffered by victims.

    Is narcissism on the rise? Of course it is. With social media we can control our image and reach huge audiences if we choose.

    The hallmarks of NPD were not really addressed, especially by the DSM. Not once were devaluation, discard, love bombing, manipulation, or lack of empathy really brought to light to distinguish between a disorder and narcissism.

    I think the interviewer asked excellent questions – the confusion of psychologists further undermines victims from being able to heal.

    I am even more grateful for HG and his writing after listening to this. I hope much of this is addressed in further interviews.

    1. They did, but you get more words and I pack more into the response so everyone is a winner.

      Jolyon did ask excellent questions and also did so in our extended discussion, I found it stimulating and interesting and we could have continued the discussion for even longer.

  13. HG, good program to be part of, great presentation of yourself.
    I think the program is a good introduction to the subject, with no intention to dive too deep into questions. It was more like a general introduction in the difficulty of the subject. It would be nice if there was more to come, like a series on narcissism for instance.
    I personally vote for an interview between you (personal experience + extended knowledgde) and a pychiatrist/pscyh prof (external observation + extended knowlegde)!

  14. 1. All publicity is good publicity.

    2. HG, you were commanding and by far the most interesting and insightful in providing your holistic perspective.

    3. I posted the following feedback on the BBC Website:

    “Excellent interview with HG Tudor on BBC Radio. More holistically the program lacked depth of a strong victim perspective. HG Tudor despite being a self confessed narcissist represented the impact on empathic individuals and a connection with their experiences very well.

    As a listener I have been left with some concern that the very serious issue of Narcissistic Personality Disorder has been trivialised by some of the judgements and assertions made by the interviewer. Consider inviting Tudor and Dr Todd Grande back to rectify this for victims.”

    The word limit would not allow me to write anything further.

    One final comment would be if an individual walked into the police station and made a confession of murder, would we try and convince them they had caused only grievious bodily harm instead? We should take seriously the assertions of those who provide us with a warning and believe them, the first time.

    P.S. HG, I would absolutely love to see a collaboration in some form with you and Dr Todd Grande – are you familiar with his work?

    1. 1. I agree.

      2. Thank you.

      3. Thank you for doing so and it is important for people to express their views and you have done so in a balanced way with a constructive suggestion.

      I do not know Dr Grande but I have been doing some plotting with regard to potential collaborations.

      1. Having read your work I know how exceptional your plotting is HG – I look forward to seeing the outcome of this in due course.

        HG, you are incredibly busy and in high demand but his you tube video on the difference between a narcissist and a psychopath is very insightful. This is a frequently asked question and often a grey area however his response is enlightening.

  15. Hello HG

    I listened to this a couple of times. I didn’t like the interview, your part was the only part worth listening to. You talk about narcissism and not around it. Your direct and not worried about being blunt, standing out in the crowd, the others have a concern for staying with the crowd because people will pick their opinion apart. With you people can pick it apart and get no where,

    Your style is as unique as you are, anyone from the uneducated to the educated that have been ensnared can understand what and how you describe your kind and the behaviors.

    Many are not going to like what you have to say.
    Not to long ago I dealt with a midranger whom was jealous of you and your popularity. He was a fool, in the end all he could do was threaten me because he couldn’t go against truth of you and your work.

  16. i was on the BBC too recently. I think what HG is doing is brilliant. I will also engage my audience this way by asking them to provide their deep thoughts.

    Fantastic show HG. I really liked it. I emailed my friends at the BBC and told them about your show and how much I would like to have a regular show about narcs. I think there is a lot of value in this. well done HG/

    1. That would be brilliant! That is such a good idea. In fact, you’ve got me thinking. I’m not unconnected either, through several channels in fact. Hmmm!

  17. Meh. I don’t like the interviewer. His skepticism abounds almost till the end. His portrayal of those spreading awareness as using “click bait” and simply wanting attention for themselves is illuminating as to his mindset…

    HG…you speaking off the cuff is one of my favorite things to listen to. Your writing is brilliant and your YouTube videos were, for a time, an addiction of mine but hearing you speak live is stimulating on every level. You were the only one worth hearing.

  18. I am also hoping you will write about the show “you” as I think having a video to watch would be a unique way for your readers to observe a narc in the act.

    1. Dear Jen,
      I’ll second that
      It appears more of Mr Tudors followers are watching the Netflix series “YOU ”
      The “ayes” have for “You” Mr Tudor
      🤣
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. Bubbles, I started watching “You” the other night. We’re it not for work “getting in the way,” I’d binge watch it all. Damn job.
        The only thing that didn’t settle with me is that a Mid-Ranger or Greater would not murder; however, a Lesser absolutely would.
        I’d put Sam near a Greater.
        Now I haven’t gotten far so don’t spoil anything for me! 😉

      2. Dear 69Revolver,
        I’ll try not to precious …. somehow, I think you’re gonna like it
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  19. Maybe it’s just me but it seems like the interviewer is almost making light of narcissistic behavior. Yes there is a difference between narcissistic behavior and a full blown disorder. However, strong narcissistic traits should be a deal breaker too.

  20. I am surprised they did not mention that you have written about Trump’s narcissism. Did you tell them you wrote about Trump?

  21. One thing that gets me is that most people try to almost talk themselves out of the idea that there are a lot of narcissists walking around. It’s almost like people are more comfortable with beliving people are jerks or just sometimes rude when in reality most if not all people who are repeatedly rude are in fact narcissists.

  22. Way to go, H.G., ending the program.. Lol

    I took a lot away from listening to it, but I didn’t take any notes, so I can’t really remember anything that stuck out to me that I want to comment on, other than, somehow, the measures for narcissism use criteria to evaluate self-esteem, and how this could be potentially unreliable because just because someone has a high self-esteem, doesn’t mean they’re narcissistic, and vice versa–namely: just because someone exhibits traits of narcissism, doesn’t mean they authentically have a high self-esteem.. The latter is verryy true and I have witnessed this with my mid-ranger.. He’s the type to suffer from reality gaps and every time I got a chance to witness them throughout the years, his thoughts and expressions of himself and his actions were really revealing..

    But otherwise, this was a good program.. Thanks for informing us about it, H.G. 🙂

      1. I know you did a poll on this and results for it weren’t a winner, but in the future, would you consider posting an article about your analysis of a dynamic between a narcissist and someone with borderline personality disorder?

  23. Dear Mr Tudor,
    Very Interesting
    Excellent feedback here from everyone
    I don’t have total confidence in surveys …questions are usually in favour of the client instigating them and there is generally limited responses for in depth personal feedback, true accuracy is not attained and people lie

    I would’ve like a more personal “one on one” with your good self and Anoushka regarding victim abuse
    The interviewer reminded me of a game show host and quite flippant

    I feel, talking about if you’re a narc or not, could go on forever …..boring …. we know the basics …. they’re plastered all over the place these days…9 steps to being one 😴 It’s empathy or no empathy
    At the end of the day, how your being treated …..determines that

    The others made some snippets of value………however
    You outshone all the others, with your eloquence, confidence, knowledge and credibility
    Thank you for giving us the opportunity for listening and feedback
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    1. Thank you. I have made enquiry to ascertain if the original discussion between Jolyon and me can be sent to me so you can all listen to it.

      1. Dear Mr Tudor,
        The original discussion would be awesome – ta
        You have the best advisors, supporters and critiques right here at your fingertips 💅🏻 🤣
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      2. That would be great, HG. I am interested in listening to the whole interview.
        I wanted to ask the team to publish your interview but I could not find the ‘Contact Us’ link on their page. Do I need to have a BBC account to see it?

        1. I am not sure.

          Unfortunately the whole interview/discussion with me cannot be made available based on the BBC’s policy and guidelines. Jolyon replied promptly and politely to my request and I understand the basis on which the BBC operates. It is disappointing as we had a very good discussion and it really does merit additional exposure as Jolyon asked some good questions and I was able to expand and explain further, so it has considerable value but ultimately it is not a major issue. There are further interviews coming up with people and these will be just me and lengthier.

          1. I am glad to hear there are new interviews coming up with other people and that it will be just you.
            After registering for an account, I was able to send some feedback to Mr. Jenkins. I hope they ask you for further interviews in the future.

  24. My feedback on the broadcast is that they took a very good interview and extracted the answers to the questions that display your narcissism the most and vilified you. You were almost discounted as having any valuable knowledge at all while the good Dr there took the spotlight. They wasted their opportunity to display your brilliance. As a loyal reader, it angers me.

    However, hopefully many who have not heard of you will google you wanting more as the audience was left hanging in this broadcast. Many people will still discover your work this way and begin to read and learn. Baby steps I suppose.

    Rather than paint you as a freaking “celebrity narcissist” which I DID NOT like, they should’ve painted you as a life saver (which you are). Out there helping real people survive abuse, not handing out fucking surveys to college students! They painted you as an arrogant prick trying to boost your ego and make money off of your disorder.

    Ima stop typing now, my blood pressure is going up!

    1. Hi MB, I perceived it differently (will explain this in the hopes it will help lower your blood pressure 😘). I believe he did a good job presenting himself als the narcissist he is, including the uncomfortable things (pretty consistent with how he presents himself on the internet, which is the best thing to do since people will check up on him).

      He was not granted much speaking time in the program – which is a pity, but he was granted to be the last speaker on the subject and tell about the effort he is making in cooperation with the good doctors to be less hurtful in his interactions with others.

      So after all, I think he portrayed himself in a quite favorable manner: knowledgable, rational, consistent, having high self-awareness and wanting to make adjustments in his behaviours.

      If I wouldn’t have known his blog already, my curiousity would definitely have been raised.

      1. Thank you shesaw. My blood pressure is better today! I’m hoping people got a little nibble of HG and they were left wanting more too and give him a Google.

        1. I regard the programme as interesting, it has stimulated discussion and debate, it has mobilised people to do things, I agree it will cause people to look me and my work up (all publicity is good publicity and all that) and it has been an item on a national radio station so this should be applauded. I appreciate people’s reactions and they are valid and I also acknowledge people’s loyalty and praise for my part in the programme. Let’s see it as a further advancement and recognise there is more to do.

          1. It SHOULD be applauded. The BBC is a big deal! I just wish everybody could see you like we do and it just isn’t happening fast and I got emotional about it yesterday and showed my ass. My apologies.

        2. MB, I thought your comment on your blood pressure was an exaggeration! I’m so sorry and I hope you feel better today! Please, take care of that blood pressure 😘

          1. SP, don’t feel bad. I was playing around about the blood pressure. It’s well controlled!

    2. MB,

      I agree with you regarding declaring HG a ‘celebrity narcissist’ because is it annoying when we think of the shallowness of the term ‘celebrity’ but we here know that he has substance. Yet, if he is going to cut through all the crap out there on narcissism, being deemed a celebrity is a good way to attract attention to his work. More people will come visit his site and decide for themselves whether or not it is celebrity fluff or not.

      1. I for one wish HG was a full blown celebrity narcissist and everyone knew about him , the knowledge would spread faster. If he were a celebrity people would soon realise he’s a celebrity that can back up with the intelligence knowledge and insight. You can be a massive celebrity and be a great singer , great actor , whatever. The quicker he becomes a celebrity the better in my opinion , to spread the word , make him loads of money and keep him fuelled so he’s not getting up to mischief .

          1. Isn’t being a celebrity kind of the opposite of what you want HG? Can a celebrity be anonymous?

            Or is the hallelujah for everybody knowing your work? If that is the case then HALLELUJAH to that!

          2. To people knowing my work. HG Tudor can be a celebrity and well known because that is my pseudonym.

          3. It is me. I can be famous, effective and widespread and still protect my identity. Look at the reach so far.

          4. That is true HG. There is a lot to be said for being a celebrity and still having your privacy. It would be horrible to be followed around by paparazzi.

          5. You could have a reality show like Trump did. “The Celebrity Narcissist’s Minion”

  25. Meh. I think it’s really cool that you were on BBC4, but there should’ve been more of you, and less of the other people talking. It’s just a few crumbs of information. Just reading one of your articles, or watching (listening to) one of your videos, will give people more valuable knowledge than this (messy) interviews. I guess there were a lot of people listening, and I hope they found their way to Narcsite, and your books.

    That being said, I started to binge watch “You” on Netflix, and it’s amazing. I recognize so much of the stuff you write about. I know other readers have discovered it already, but for the ones that didn’t: check it out!
    I also think you could write an even better script, to make a nice European Art House film about narcissism. 👊🏻

        1. Oh how I’d love to be a fly on the wall when the two of you discuss the show (“You”) after you’ve watched it. (Now there’s some irony for you Alanis!)

        2. HG I loved Vikings! May I suggest The Last Kingdom after. The book are so good but I enjoyed the series as well.

          1. I am obliged for the recommendation. I am at an early stage with Vikings so no spoilers!

    1. Haha MB! Let’s add a few lines to Alanis’ lyrics!

      “It’s a black fly, in your Chardonnay, it’s a Narc watching “You”, together with his date”

  26. Needed this today HG. Thank you for providing a welcome distraction.

    It’s been a hard day at the Stick Face. Many sticks were worn down to a veritable ‘nubbin’. Mind you, I’ve been inundated with spoons today so I’m operating on an more or less even parity. I listened and took great interest in the contents of the above program.

    Yeah, I GET it why the presenter is being called a bit of a cock-wipe by a few PP on here. He has a touch of the Radio 4, ‘imbecilic’, (Yah right on, middle class, Archers etc) air about him but actually he’s really fucking switched on and presents his stuff in a way which slides under the radar.

    The reason for this is that as you continue to listen to the program, he acts like a point of focus. He gently dissuades the listener from ascribing NPD itself to N traits and not behaviours. He continually and very gently and subtly twists the narrative to that of HG’s own – that there are cockwombles out there are who are utterly unaware of their own NPD and this distinguishes them from the very few that are aware. That shower of shite which is the NPI is a case in point. Again, the presenter draws attention to this.

    I took notes on the program but actually in the end; others’ have raised very similar points to my own. Excepting these;

    Borderline Personality Disorder and the DSM raise their ugly heads. Utter bunch of tosswipe both of those things are in reality. I want to raise something I have been personally researching for the past few weeks; the diagnostic criteria for a person suffering from BPD; a cluster B personality disorder. Just like NPD. Criteria for a BPD diagnosis are these.

    1 – Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment

    2 – A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by extremes between idealization and devaluation (also known as “splitting”)

    3 – Identity disturbance: Markedly or persistently unstable self-image or sense of self

    4 – Impulsive behavior in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating)

    5 – Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-harming behavior

    6 – Emotional instability in reaction to day-to-day events (e.g., intense episodic sadness, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)

    7 – Chronic feelings of emptiness

    8 – Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)

    9 – Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms

    From https://www.verywellmind.com/borderline-personality-disorder-diagnosis-425174

    For BPD to be diagnosed, more than 5 out of the 9 need to be present.

    I present as having 5 of these symptoms but there are at least three others that I know I could NEVER meet. It’s to those three others that I would very firmly place in the realm of the NPD sufferer plus others besides.

    So in essence, i think, you have the final outcome of how closely BPD and NPD are actually linked (even if indeed, BPD is a thing in itself and is not, as I suspect, the result of years of NPD abuse). Neatly again, you see mirroring between the Ns and the Es and how easy it is to push an abused E away as having a mental disorder when they themselves have been traumatised. How the cycle folds back in on itself leaving the abused to be re-traumatised through lack of self-knowledge and awareness and essentially the NPD sufferer to get away scott-free. Time and time again.

    And no fucker is PROPERLY studying this field as best as I can see. What gives?

  27. Interesting for various reasons.

    Anoushka Martins mentioned she is training to be a doctor and people go to her for help when they realise they are dealing with a person with Narcissism. She identifies that there is a disorder of the ego and distinguishes between normal bad behaviour and narcissistic abuse. When you resonate with what she has to say, you are dealing with a narc. For me, she doesn’t have the credentials I’m looking for to ascertain any validity. She has experience having dealt with and left a narc, but that doesn’t make her an expert in my opinion. I’m really not too sure why she was on the show considering she was in the company of psychologists, psychiatrists and of course HG.

    Jean Twangy a psychologist discusses a narc inventory whereby a high level of leadership and self confidence amongst students excelled indicating higher forms of narcissism amongst that population, does that validate those outstanding achievers as narcs? Or merely a go getting professional in the making?

    Richard Grannin a life couch who I thought was a complete twat! Talks about an interpersonal style – an increase to look good and feel good is an indicator and what grated my tits! Is when he mentioned there are certain narc victim types who are delusional and are obsessed with the lurid – emotionally aroused and are excited by being with a narc. He does not identify why the attraction is there and that it is at a subconscious level to most. How can he possibly life couch anybody by being so misinformed. I reiterate my point again, he’s a twat!

    Dr Tennison Lee is a psychologist and made a few good points, narcissism is a defence mechanism against criticism, incurable and toxic and getting a person with NPD to therapy is a huge issue because they do not think there is a problem or believe they are too important to adhere to appointment times because they are too busy with important matters (cut to HG part where he confirms this can be the case made me laugh). I 100% agreed with Dr Lee’s point in help with diagnosing narcissism using the family and friends contributions as well as the DSM because of the intense manifestation of abuse for individuals who surround the narc.
    Was it him that also mentioned Trump as a stable genius? If so, that really tickled me!

    Brent Roberts is a psychologist as well I think and he focuses on 3 things, entitlement, vanity and leadership believing that age trend narcissism is no greater now than it’s ever been in history and references a Socrates example (I laughed yet again!) the DSM self assessment questionnaire shows a generational increase in narcissism but surely that cannot be accurately relied on. If I have PMT when I fill this out I could annihilate everyone and my narcissism would be sky high! Utter rubbish.

    The last woman at the end who talked about to East versus West Germany was interesting because she also talked about community. The East, a collective society with higher levels of self esteem showed lower levels of narcissism. The West, higher as they had lower levels of self esteem due to volatility. She also mentioned that when things are going good and are harmonious, self esteem and self image is high, and when not, it’s a crisis.

    Lastly, HG. You are the only one who identified empaths in a narc society. When he focused on your gothic vocabulary to verbalise your blog and books, I disliked his shoddy attempt at trivialising your work. I respect the others in their different approaches, but there is nobody who represents or knows narc victims or indeed narcissism as much as you. You live it. And you have identified your targets as empaths. Regardless of your background, if I need knowledge, an expert, someone to help dissect the abuse and why it happened. There is only one choice. Thank you for all you do.

    PS, if this was posted before my consultation last night I would have bottled it! Celebrity HG confirmed.

  28. HG, do you not ever worry that your voice could be recognised.and your anonymity blown? Someone out there knows you and may come across stuff on u tube and radio! Do narcissists suffer paranoia as a part of the disorder? Do you think you have covered yourself adequately by putting your voice out there, photos of scenery on IG you been to recently, and the tales of your previous victims on here. Those ladies although names have been changed would recognise themselves if they came across this blog, not everyone would have Alex’s story or daffs spelling whore on their lawns.. Take care Mr. 🙂

    1. I appreciate your concern. I have embraced a lifetime of not being identified through my professional work and those who thought they knew who I was in my private life did not really know who I was.

      1. Oh, now it makes sense! HG is able to spend so much time on the blog due to being furloughed by the US government.

      2. Ah? Wha?? I thought?? Wait… I must catch my breath for a moment… I thought that MaryLee knew you inside and out??!!! I mean, the dear thing knows your favorite flavor of Marmalade for goodness’ sake! I… I… I… where are my smelling salts…???!!! This is really all too much for me. I mean, she has been your sidekick for what has seemed like years, now! How can this be??? Has there been a split?

  29. As a whole, I did not like the interview as they sort of made Narcissism sound trivial and as if it is some sort of trend, instead of the long-standing, seriously dangerous personality disorder in which it is. I liked you part, though. I am not just saying that, I really did. It was fun to hear you talk so fast in a British accent. I cannot imagine being able to do this!

      1. Shame on WordPress for not notifying Nika of this “thank you” that was received. I wonder what else she might not have ever seen.

          1. NarcAngel,

            I had to switch over from my Pinterest account to my WordPress Account to make sure my reply went through to you, so I will answer, again, just to make sure.

            Yes, sometimes WordPress is unreliable in giving us our notifications. I have heard others say the same thing. Oh, well.

            Thank you kindly for your reply.

  30. I listened to it! It is the first time I have ever heard you speak rapidly, and though you speak clearly, I am not used to the British accent, so I could not understand certain words until I listened, again.

    I did not know you were so famous in Britain.

    I like that you do not get excited when you are called a “celebrity”, but rather, you simply know it to be true, and seem to take it as “this is the way it should be”. I find this very attractive and level-headed.

    In general, I am glad that the Narcissism subject is becoming more popular because whether a particular site gives accurate enlightenment, or bogus information, people will eventually get an overall idea that NPD is a serious issue, and that people need to be alert, learn the Red Flags, and become further educated on it- even in grade school (especially due to its insidious nature)!

    Single behaviors do not qualify individuals as Narcissists, but rather, patterns- as in most any personality disorder. And it is these ongoing behaviors that become patterns that are so harmful to empaths.

    (Ex: Being gaslighted a few times will not ruin a person, but being gaslighted over, and over, can make a person think they are truly going crazy…(this is just a flimsy example, and everything that NPD can ruin others with is really more complex).

    I hope this makes sense. I am waiting for them to refill my ADHD meds, and until they do, I tend to be all over the place.

  31. It was disappointing to hear a Psychology Professor’s views about narcissism. He seems to ignore differences among Lessers, MRNs and GNs.
    From what I have seen and experienced, people with a NPD get worse with age, unless they have physical or mental problems which prevent them from showing previous narcissistic behaviours. Not the other way round. Healthy MRNs learn to manipulate and take advantage of others with age. They become more subtle but not less manipulative. They have learnt and practised how to get what they want without others noticing it for years.
    I agree with their observations about the differences between people born and brought up in West and East Germany, though.
    I wish they had published the whole interview with HG instead.

    1. Yes I found the West and East Germany observation interesting.

      It should be shouldn’t it, you know what to do.

    2. I get what you are saying but my observations (which are limited in this respect and must be taken as speculation right now) tend to suggest that Ns suffer from episodic behaviours which are entirely due to having not having shored up their fuel matricies in the first place. I mean whilst younger.

      So, I perceive that younger Ns (20’s/into 30s) won’t really yet have figured out THE most fuel efficient way of abusing their victims/gaining fuel etcs. Late 30’s/40’s/50s – yeah – most of them have it nailed and in most cases are operating at peak efficiency..

      Going further onwards it just depends. I imagine that a Greater, for example, with a well maintained network and careful use of resources and a solid IPPS in place plus the usual, could last indefinitely as long as it is coupled with behaviours which aren’t too malignant.

      However, I have witnessed fuel collapses before in the elderly and it really isn’t fucking pretty. I would imagine to an unweaponised E (or a neutral), the behaviour is so abhorrent (but entirely predictable to the aware E) that the person is left with a very serious dilemma in which do they keep on helping that person or do they now decide on a LC/NC simply to protect their own emotional and physical well being? Even tougher if children are involved.

      .

      1. Hello Renarde,
        re “I perceive that younger Ns (20’s/into 30s) won’t really yet have figured out THE most fuel efficient way of abusing their victims/gaining fuel etcs. Late 30’s/40’s/50s – yeah – most of them have it nailed and in most cases are operating at peak efficiency..”

        This is what I meant. They get better at manipulating people to hide themselves behind a façade of decency but I disagree with what they said that older people are less narcissistic than younger people, that traits like entitlement, vanity and leadership go down over time because I have witnessed the opposite. A narcissist’s sense of entitlement can get worse over time, especially in societies where the elderly are supposed to be respected for their wisdom or whatever that allegedly comes with age. For example, ACONs are expected to care for their abusive NPD parents in need or NPD grandparents are free to physically, emotionally and psychologically punish their grandchildren whenever they want, just because they are older and are suppossed to have more power and entitlement in society than the younger generations. NPDs and highly narcissistic people take advantage of this belief system about the elderly in society while empathetic people do not.

        1. Ohh now, you have a point. I hadn’t considered it from that angle.

          Its possibly why when I write about NPD I always take the western point of view. That’s really intriguing!

  32. My take on this program was that it was mainly debating whether or not narcissism was a problem in society, and that it concluded it was not. There seemed to be much emphasis on how tests don’t show a high percentage of narcs in society.

    There was practically no focus on harm to victims of narcissists and it seemed to imply that narcissism may just be a “non-constant self-esteem.” I don’t dispute that, but I felt the way they described narcissism made it seem like an obscure problem only for the narcissists (of which there are few) and trivialized it as a problem for their families and others with whom narcissists interact.

    You did an excellent and professional job as always, of course, HG.

    1. Thank you WS.

      I would advocate that readers voice their strong opinions in this regard to the relevant people and bring about change.

  33. Hi HG, thank you for sharing this with us and congrats for being on BBC4.
    Now for my long rant.
    The fact that the word narcissism is now being spoken much more frequently in general terms , in my opinion is a hinderance to the actual understanding of it.
    Yes I do believe that society in general is creating a very narcissistic culture but every time Trump is mentioned it just drives home yet again what a narc is going to look like. The Kardashians the selfie culture the obsession with looks and youth and popularity and having more things is of course all encouraging narcissistic behaviour But yet again it deflects away from what people should be looking for and at.
    The mention of self esteem, I think was very valid and that Narcissists lack self esteem not the other way around , an important point.
    To gage whether Trump is happy , ridiculous , of course his disorder works for him he’s so successful so again it’s linked to glamour , success, wealth , vanity bla bla, misleading .
    Borderline was mentioned and i’m probably going to get lynched for this one but in my opinion borderlines are narcissists , Yes it might be a different type , but it’s a Narc as far as i’m concerned and they can cry all they want No we are not we have Empathy , Really ?? Do they …….
    It’s also very common for Narcs to somehow be ok admitting to having BPD as if that’s not quite as evil or in bad taste as being the N word .
    They are Narcs and I think this is how women diagnosed with this go under the radar in the statistics of Narcs being male.
    Even before I found you HG, I read about the male borderline also referred to as the Cassanova Male and the female borderline referred to as the Waif, very good female phycologist has a blog, her name is Sheri something or Shari, american lady, she’s very good, google borderline cassonova male !!!
    A lot of good stuff on there about codependants as well.
    Anyway some interesting points , i’m pleased your a Celeb HG about time!!
    The interviewer sounded like an old school pompous ass and a bit patronising in general, could be a Narc 😜

    What about the non ambitious introvert narcs that don’t care about success or wealth, the wife beaters , the losers down the pub every saturday night , the ones that don’t stand out in a crowd , under the radar.
    If i knew nothing about narcissism that radio program would have gone right over my head and it would have really had no meaning to me, i’d have seen it as ,
    Is the world becoming more obsessed with fame fortune and materialism .
    Your bit was different but if i heard you speak without knowing everything from you that i know it wouldn’t have sunk in , in any meaningful way to me.
    By the way my point about BPD is that if they stopped separating that from NPD then it would take out some of the check list people are looking for when thinking someone is or isn’t a narc.
    I’m probably going to get slaughtered for this BPD stuff .

    1. I think Bpd is way worse than Narcissim because not only do they exhibit marcissistuc traits, they are just bat shit crazy on top of that

      1. Lori, however BPD *CAN* be treated, NPD cannot. Yes, BPDs are batshit crazy but they can actually get that crap under control.

        The only therapy that is efficacious for BPD is DBT (Dialectical Behavioral Therapy). For those Borderlines WILLING to do the work (“willing” the operative word here), it can work damn near miracles. I lead a DBT group at work & ive witness a *monumental* transformation within 2-mos in one particular patient. I actually look forward to seeing her each week! Lol

      1. Thank you K
        I said this on here about 2 years ago and was vilified by people telling me they are not due to check list criterias etc etc and it being completely different bla bla.
        Anyway I don’t agree and I don’t believe these things can be put in a tidy check list.
        Having a relationship with a person suffering from BPD is a complete nightmare for people, I think they are a type of victim narc.
        Cluster B – is put together as a group for a reason although of course the spectrum is huge.
        The difficulty with these tests is there’s always a question about how you deal with break ups and if you’ve ever suffered suicidal thoughts or bad depression due to break ups , they stick people in the BPD group very often. These people could actually be codependent, it’s very complicated, no wonder the professionals have such a difficult time diagnosing these things.
        That’s why HG is coming from a different perspective and the professionals should be taking notes from him.

      2. Yes, indeed. Let’s forget that there are low, middle, and high functioning BPD’s. Princess Diana was supposedly BPD, and an Idealist. There are many BPD’s never even diagnosed because they are high functioning. But, stereotyping is always a rather fun art form on a self-proclaimed, evil Sociopath’s blog site.

    2. Hi Lisa,
      re “I read about the male borderline also referred to as the Cassanova Male and the female borderline referred to as the Waif,”
      Unfortunately, empathetic people with a (C)-PTSD are misdiagnosed with a BPD while full-blown NPDs are misdiagnosed with a BPD, OCD, ADD and even with Cluster C (!) disorders which does not make any sense at all. But then they say that only *qualified* people (“Doctors”) are allowed to diagnosed others.

      1. EB, interesting that you should mention Cluster C because that’s exactly what my ex narc was diagnosed as , from his one session and the doctor was actually googling things while diagnosing. I actually said to the doctor , He is a Narcissist the doctor said No it’s Cluster C. At this point i had been reading for 3 years and had had email and phone consultations with HG and had read loads of other stuff. Many times in the first year i thought , no maybe he isn’t one but i knew after 3 years he was def a narc.
        I remember saying to HG in the first year maybe he isn’t one or maybe he’s a borderline, HG simply said yes maybe but I thing your entangled with a narcissist .
        Took me 3 years to fully understand it and see it, him seeing a doctor actually made it worse because all his family and flying monkeys thought , Oh look he’s really trying he really loves her he really wants a relationship. Plus narc was never mentioned because the asshole presented like a humble little victim that was vulnerable and scared of emotions.

        1. Hello Lisa,

          I am afraid his doctor does not seem to know the basics concerning Cluster B and C. Unfortunately, there are still therapists and psychologists who do not seem to understand basic facts. Since they are qualified to diagnose people, they can do a lot of harm, especially to victims of those with a Cluster B disorder. I am glad you found this blog and that HG told you what he is.

          Cluster B and C are opposites. While the first one is about people with manipulative, exploitative, abusive behaviours, the latter includes people who are fearful and suffer from anxiety. It is not possible that somebody with a Cluster B disorder has a Cluster C as well. Just to have an example, there is an interesting video by Todd Grande on YouTube called ‘What is the difference between Avoidant Personality Disorder and Narcissistic Personality Disorder?’

      2. Yes, the article by Sharon (whatever her last name is) gives all BPD’s a very bad stigma. Many have said that she got her license from Dollar Tree, and is just shooting off her ignorance.

        She is one person on the Internet that people are getting information from, and then going around and stigmatizing BPD as nearly evil in nature, such as Lori.

        Sharon is probably a Narcissist who hates Borderlines because she found one that challenged her intelligence (which probably wasn’t difficult to do seeing as though it was Sharon who was being challenged).

        1. Tamara
          I understand that you feel insulted. As with most things, we relate what we have experienced, and usually from a limited number of engagements with a person, so the view can be extremely narrow (especially if our experience was bad). If you would like to provide something that would help us with more understanding I would appreciate it and certainly be willing to listen/read.

          1. NarcAngel,

            Thank you for your kind reply. I wish I could “tag” myself so that I could find this comment later this evening when I have more time to better reply to give a wider understanding on this subject matter as I have studied this condition quite a lot.

            It is immensely courteous of you to allow me to share my view, and I am touched by your consideration, and it makes my day that much brighter to find such thoughtfulness.

            I do have this particular thread in my Pinterest board, so I should be able to find it, again, and I will try to do so this evening. But, if I miss the opportunity, since I am going swimming with friends tonight, please excuse me for not returning until I remember to do so, again.

            And really, even if I get distracted (I have ADHD), and forget to return at a later date, just the fact that you even asked me to share with you was enough, in itself, for me to understand what you said in that sometimes people just have limited experiences with it. 😊

    3. You are welcome lisa
      There are two females that I know (who I think have NPD) but they have been diagnosed as BPD, they are in treatment and on meds. Typical mid-range behaviour.

      It is very complicated but, once you have a firm grasp of NPD, it is very easy to see it in people. I just follow the iterative pattern of behaviour over time and the result is usually NPD.

  34. I’ve spotted a few things that can generate confusion here, maybe on purpose? First of all, it seems to me they focused a lot on this idea that there’s some kind of pandemia, like narcissism being the Black Death of the 21st century, to later on discuss behaviors that are not necessarily traits of someone with a personality disorder, but just a person that is vain, competitive, individualistic, and even narcissistic, but not a narcissist. They don’t seem to make that distinction clear and that is problematic. The fact that they define narcissism as “the evil twin of empathy” and the sarcastic mentioning to vampires or Gothic terminology makes it lose credibility and sound like we are watching an episode of Twilight. I personally believe the criteria used to determine whether a person has NPD or not fails from the moment they create a questionnaire and give it to the person in isolation without determining what the person’s interactions with friends and family are on a daily basis by interviewing these people, not the patient. The reason why I love HG’s books and blog is precisely the fact that, as he states in the interview, he is aware his actions hurt people, and that’s the main difference between his contribution in this interview and the other participants. He knows a personality disorder does not hurt the person more than the people that interact with this person, but the other interviewees totally ignore the effects that narcissism have on the people that surround the narcissist. Therefore, it bothered me a little they didn’t dedicate more time to talk about your work with victims of narcissists and how important it has been for many of us. I agree with you on the fact that the way society is progressing, more narcissistic practices are being adopted, the pharmaceutical and health system in the USA are very clear examples of that. Anyway it was interesting and I loved knowing we interact with a celebrity, congrats on the interview.

    1. Thank you and you make entirely valid points. I find the NPI questionnaire hilarious because if you gave that to a narcissist to answer he would answer in a way which actually not show him to be a narcissist because the narcissism blinds the lesser and mid ranger to the behaviours so they will not ‘connect’ with the comments. Ironically, the people who would connect are people with a mix of empathy and narcissistic traits who then are worried they are narcissists – their honesty and insight into their behaviour means they are more likely to ‘self-diagnose’ How many times do we read on the blog about people writing ‘I think I am a narcissist or ‘god HG I do a lot of these things you have described.’ The diagnosis must arise from external observation and over time. If a Mid Range narcissist goes to therapy because his partner suspects the disorder, the narcissism protects itself by boosting the façade, manipulating the therapist etc to cause the therapist to miss NPD and even suggest the true victim is the abuser. That is how effective narcissism is at defending itself. The Lesser would not respond in such a subtle manner but of course he or she does not need to, he or she would not be at the appointment in the first place.

      1. I completely agree, HG. I have encountered several online references that say that the surest way to tell that you are a narcissist is if you suspect that you are one. Narcissists always know what they are. Which of course is ludicrous, as you just explained.

        1. Indeed it is horse shit. If you think you are a narcissist (and not because someone has said that to you) you won’t be one. The Greater of course does not think, he or she knows.

      2. You are spot on about narcs going to therapy , mine went and i went with him, the fact that he willing and volunteered to go immediately (it was part of a hoover as he knew i was done)
        it was seen as he can’t be a narc they don’t go to therapy and they never admit they are at fault.
        Oh yes they do as part of manipulation , some do as you have always said HG, then when they get there they admit mistakes always backed up with BUT it’s not my fault it’s this , this and this . The fact they are seeking help and admitting a problem is then seen as Oh maybe they are not a Narc, they have trouble with sustaining emotions , they are afraid of getting hurt they have commitment issues , oh it’s OCD , it’s depression .
        It’s a HOOVER , a manipulation and a pity play for the IPPS, surrounding family members and friends to witness, just incase anyone has noticed that it’s ground hog day yet again and the Narc has been dumped by another evil partner !!! A cycle in my narcs life that had been repeating for 30 years !!!
        The check list is a joke.
        HG you should be doing the checklist.
        BPD was also mentioned to my narc, he even let slip many months later maybe by accident maybe not , that it was handy having that assessment because it’s on his medical record now and good for him if he ever wants to take time of work he can use those reasons.
        He had one appointment and never went back, why didn’t he go back because i started seeing him again, hoover worked , handy to skive off work with that medical record , job done.

          1. Sorry but i need to have another rant now about something else that really pisses me off , about everything i hear about NPD, they never look at how serious it is.

            The lady at the start of the interview mentions that not all mental people are locked up, they walk amongst us.
            I wish they would stop talking about Trump and Selfies , narcissism isn’t new , it’s just through a different medium now, computers and reality TV to mention a couple , what about old Hollywood when it began or during wars or Kings and Queens or a million other things that could be mentioned in history about grandiosity , entitlement bla bla

            A narc or possible psychopath is running the States and it’s a problem but nobody thought that when JFK or Clinton were in or Obama.

            I would like the subject of objectifying other human beings and animals brought to peoples attention, when you actually get your head around this and it took me a while , it is in my opinion the root of most cruelty and this obviously is applicable to victims of narcissists , whether it’s your parents , your boss , your romantic partner.

            Then you have child abuse , domestic violence , animal abuse , this is recognised to a degree when talking about psychopaths and profiling a muderer but they are at one far end of this spectrum, while the everyday abuse continues just because it’s not Ted Bundy style.

            They need to stop talking about bloody selfies and get to the bottom of this detachment and objectifying of people, children for example in sexual abuse . Maybe some more hard hitting subjects will wake society up to this epidemic of mental health.

            To understand that you are an object and therefore your child is an object and so is your pet , is to start to understand the depth of what your dealing with.

      3. I’m really glad HG that you posted the above because it’s something I touched on a few months ago in one of my blogs. The NPI questionnaire and this 4% stat which is bandied around. However, writing that piece coincided with a ‘Dark Night of the Soul’ for me, in which I became seriously concerned that I was a N who was continually bouncing back off the bubble edge so to speak and was always seek to reinforce the status quo; that I’m not a narc. However, I got out of that bear trap and I am happy that I’m not a N. I’m just not. Nor do I feel the need to prove it. Not now based on what I know.

        It seriously bothered me at the time and it really hurt. Suffice it so say, there were occasions in my past where I did experience affective empathy and slowly I began to regain my own confidence. It had left me badly shaken when I considered the implications of what I thought I might be.

        Going back to the NPI questionnaire, I understand now that I got the reality gap completely wrong and therefore the writing needs to be updated. I thought it was a ‘fuzzy boundary’ and for unaware NPD sufferers, it isn’t. It’s a hard stop. You taught me that. Thank you.

      4. Dear Mr Tudor,
        So true. The weasel would go to a pysch apt and keep presenting himself as a PTSD sufferer for the monetary benefits (he bragged to me about it and admitted he took great delight in psyching the psych)
        He believes those around him are the problem, not him (except those who are beneficial to him ) He mentioned he’d been to psychs with his ex partners, the diagnose was …..the issue was more “her” than him …..she needs to be more understanding and let him be himself After association with him, his exes and all his kids have pysch issues
        Narcissism definitely protects itself big time
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      5. Dear Mr Tudor,
        So is “hermetically sealed” for a narcissist …. natural, premeditated or a mentally pre conditioned disorder or something else, because the weasel sure as hell knew what he was doing ?
        With thanks
        Bubbles xx 😘

        1. It is instinctive for Lesser and Mid Range, instinctive and calculated for Greater. Victims often (understandably) think they see calculated behaviour but actually it is instinctive.

  35. It’s baffling to me that supposed medical “experts” still do not understand the damage someone with NPD causes to others. Like the woman who was speaking at the beginning of the program, you know when you’ve been exposed to a narcissist when the information “resonates.” The first time I saw a video on narcissism it was like a kick to the face it resonated so much. Anyone who has experienced narcissistic abuse knows the difference between someone with NPD and someone with merely narcissistic traits. Why the research into narcissism doesn’t include the narratives of the many many victims who have very very similar experiences is beyond me. I’ve read so many accounts from different victims and the stories of things that they’ve experienced are sometimes so identical to my own it gives me chills. If the medical community wants to understand NPD and determine its prevalence they need to start talking to the people that understand it the best, the victims/survivors.

    1. True the victims do have plenty to offer with regard to understanding the impact and how the behaviours manifest. Of course the person they really need to speak to is me.

      1. I agree. And it was clear that he hadn’t spent any real time reading your writing other than to point out some of your phraseology like “dark arts” which seemed to trivialize what you do, IMO. Where the victims are vital though is that we’ve seen both sides. We’ve seen the facade and what happens when the mask drops behind closed doors. The part that most people never see. As you said, the protective nature of NPD allows those with NPD to evade detection even by trained “experts” because they too get conned by the charming facade. If you haven’t seen the two sides firsthand, the cognitive dissonance is usually too much for someone to deal with, even for therapists.

    2. Vera, I agree that the impact it has on the victims could create awareness but I think only to other victims. How many times has it been said that “nobody understands”. It is hard to describe the damage to someone that has not been exposed.

      Understanding what a narcissist truly is can only come from observing one. Unfortunately it’s not possible in most cases because 1. Most narcissist don’t know they are narcissist and 2. They will not accept or feel they need therapy.

      HG is the answer in this case. I was not happy with this interviewer. There was no depth to his program. If I knew nothing about narcissism and listened to this I’d still know nothing. I would however be intrigued by HG and I would look him up.

      HG I hope we get to hear the rest if it!

      1. It is worth remembering that narcissism is a massive subject. I conducted another interview late this afternoon and it ran for two hours and we could have gone on for four more easily. The impact of our behaviour on victims is a significant and central element of the topic of narcissism and I suspect that the programme was not actually produced to address that element and thus it was omitted which naturally has generated concern and upset, for obvious reasons. The subject would benefit from a series of programmes addressing it to allow the breadth of coverage which a one episode programme naturally cannot achieve with such a huge subject. I think, from comments and feedback, that there was a perspective to the programme which was not ‘What is Narcissism and How Does Affect Narcissist and their Victims?’ but rather ‘Is Narcissism a Current Trend?’ which of course is a valid question but the incorrect answer may have been arrived at. As we know, narcissism has been around for centuries but it is obscured by euphemisms, incorrect labelling and misunderstanding. I think some have a viewpoint that narcissism has suddenly sprung up as some kind of buzzword in the last 25 years or so and really it just another word for an arsehole – which of course it is not, it is something far more pervasive and harmful. It is akin to suggesting PTSD has only really manifested in the last 30 years and nobody had it beforehand because everyone was more stoic, robust and latter generations are pampered, ‘snowflakes’ etc. Of course PTSD has always existed but would not be recognised by that label. There will always be sceptics who suggest that advances in understanding of psychological issues are just trends, buzzwords and industry-creation because psychological issues are harder to ‘see’. The classic example is depression – people can be dismissive about it ‘oh he is putting it on’ – ‘he needs to stop feeling sorry for himself and get out and about’ – ‘turn that frown up and down, positive mental attitude is needed’ – ‘she’s not depressed she is just using it as an excuse to scrounge benefits’ Whereas with a broken leg, you can see the leg is broken. Just because something is becoming better understood does not mean is has suddenly sprung into existence. It will always have been there, but often less noticed and/or by a different (sometimes inaccurate) name.

          1. MB
            “Just shake it off” is a good one. “Stop wallowing in self-pity” “Get a grip on yourself”. “Everybody’s life is hard, toughen up.” And my mother’s favorite, “Stop being such a ‘hot-house’ flower.”

          2. WS, I’ve never heard the hot house flower before. It sure would be nice if it could just be shaken off, eh?

          3. MB
            Yes, it would be nice. “Hot house flower” was one of Mama’s favorite insults. As in: unable to live out in the world, weak, constantly requiring other people to take care of you, impractical, extravagant, wilts easily, can’t take abuse – she could go on and on.

          4. Not one ounce of depression since Mr. Asshole moved out. Like a freaking miracle to get rid of the nonsense!

          5. Thanks MB. I swear it was a deranged form of Stockholm syndrome. All of it. I’ve decided to do the consult with HG re, my foibles and why I end up with only narcissistic people. I would have stayed in that marriage until I was dead if he hadn’t left. There was a time I lost like 30 pounds in 6 weeks (?) because I couldn’t eat.

        1. This reminds me of a recent discussion I had with one of my cousins who was attributing my super narc grand father”s behavior to his generation”s mentality. I had to stop her and say “no, it was a personality disorder that has been running in this family for many generations”. I wanted to add “Your father had it too” but I kept it for myself.

        2. I will not stop to be amazed by your level of introspection “is something far more pervasive and harmful.“ How awesome it is you can self-recognize that? I may be throwing a very simplistic opinion, but it seems to me the medical community at large seems to dismiss a lot of maladies that do not have a quick physical explanation, such as the ones you mentioned before or others like fibromyalgia, for example. I believe in holistic medicine, because I somatize all of my anxieties and the doctors usually tell me I don’t have anything visible and I should be feeling alright. Certain economic practices also help in the equation: if the disease doesn’t have an easy pill to mitigate the effects, it’s all in your mind. Sorry, I know this is a strong opinion, but I have seen so much…

          1. I have spent a long time with what I am and a considerable time increasing my awareness with the involvement of others. I am an intelligent man and further more, my traits of pride, superiority and the desire to be number one drive me to focus on such matters for the betterment of my standing, knowledge and legacy. I recognise the pervasiveness and harm because of feedback and I have a different perspective as a Greater – I see the harm, I see the effects but it does not trouble me because I am not burdened by remorse, compassion, guilt etc. I see it but remain unmoved but I can recognise and acknowledge it.

          2. This creates an existential conundrum. As empaths (or normals even), we can identify bad actions and their effects; but we tend to find ways to justify when we make mistakes, humanize our action, try to forgive ourselves… you don’t. It’s most likely due to that ability to observe objectively without feeling remorse and identify your actions, but I thought that being a narcissist you would deflect blame. But you don’t. You actually accept you commit hurtful actions on others. It’s like you are watching yourself from a different body, like an astral projection experience (I know you don’t like esoteric terminology, neither do I, but you get the image).

          3. HG, this is the point I was trying to make and as usual you have put words to what I could not say. As a greater with the ability to recognize the actions of a narcissist and the effects on victims your prospective is needed. You give the example of depression “he needs to stop feeling sorry for himself” and a narcissist being the new buzzword. A victim of your kind is often dismissed as “a frivolous girl” that can’t get over a guy.

            Your prospective is our voice, even if that is not your intention. We need the industry to take notice of this subject and not dismiss it as the latest trend because your kind causes severe damage.

      2. I agree with what HG said that the program was not designed to include the impact on victims. It is indeed a massive subject.
        But Mercy, I think the import of someone actually looking at the stories of all of the victims should not be dismissed. I myself have been amazed at all of the stories I’ve read of others’ experiences and have been blown away by how much overlap there is between someone else’s story and mine. I think someone who has never experienced narcissistic abuse literally needs to be bombarded with how much damage NPD actually causes to others. One person’s account will not have that much impact, but would 100? 1000? Each story adding an additional overlapping layer until it happens enough that a clear pattern appears and people start to get it. When you look at the overlap of survivor accounts, after a certain number, the damage caused becomes undeniable, even to someone who hasn’t experienced it firsthand. There’s clearly a growing community of survivors that are speaking out. But the majority of the talking, at least that I see, is to other survivors and people that already “get it.” The victim/survivor discussion needs to be brought into the mainstream. IMO.

        1. Vera, I couldn’t agree more. What I was trying to say is exactly that. Victims talk to victims because we get it. I can only speak from my own experience. On my search of recovery I came across the word narcissist. This word fit so I searched narcissist and was directed to many sites for victims. Guess who ran these sites…victims! It was a good start for me and it did help to know there were other people experiencing what I was. It got to a point where I felt I was wallowing in the victim pool (haha I got in trouble for saying that phrase once). It wasn’t until I found this site ran by a narcissist that I was able to understand the logic behind it all.

          That’s why I said that we needed the doctors to take notice of the narcissist who has studied extensively the subject of narcissism . Maybe a new prospective will give the victims a new avenue to be heard.

  36. Well done. The point about there being little to no inclusion of the effects on others as part of the diagnosis was interesting. It could have used more HG, and you have a new moniker “celebrity narcissist”!

    1. Thank you. Yes, I agree. I have some ideas arising from this and will be contacting Jolyon to push them forward. The moniker made me laugh but I have ordered a huge sign proclaiming it to be placed on a billboard.

    2. HG, I think the label “celebrity” cheapened and diminished your extraordinary contribution to the field of the human psyche and mind. Perhaps, it was not intended that way but his label should be used in a game of “pin the tail on the Narsecyst”. You offer much more than a big ass, good looks, fame and fortune.

      1. Ha ha nicely put and thank you. It is clearly a perception based on an particular viewpoint with regard to narcissism. It is incorrect but a perception nevertheless. It entertained me actually. It does show that more needs to be done though doesn’t it?

  37. Hi HG. I was very disappointed with this program. Your interview, as always, was valuable. But, the tone of the program was such as to suggest that the behavioral dynamic of narcissism is a facade being bandied about by a bunch of cry-baby snowflakes. You have sincerely validated the experiences of so many, across the spectrum of personalities. Perhaps the interviewer should have shut up and really listened better, with an open mind!

    1. Indeed and thank you. Whilst the discussion was interesting (and of course he and I spoke for an hour and only a small part of that appears in the programme that has been broadcast) I did form the view that he saw narcissism as a byword for being a twat when of course the behaviour is twattish to the victims BUT it is far more serious and such a view does cause this flippancy towards what is a serious and devastating disorder to the victims. I think it is a consequence of

      1. Mainstream media euphemising the behaviour (the SATC problem if you will), ill-informed ‘relationship experts’ using ‘softer’ terms which dilute what is actually happening so it is shrugged off (she is high maintenance/he is just not into you/he is a commitment phobe/ she is an office politician/ he’s a cry baby/ he has anger issues/ she is a sex addict) ;
      2. A viewpoint that certain demographics (millennials and generation z) need to get a backbone and stop whining and being self-absorbed (which means actual narcissists who act this way (mid Range) go unnoticed and are dismissed (as are their victims) and it cultivates a breeding ground for our kind); and

      3. A consequence of attaching a label to every form of human behaviour so that is becomes a disorder/ condition/ syndrome. For example, some might say a child with ADHD is just a little brat who needs some discipline, thus the recognised condition is rejected and people become fed-up with the psychological categorisation of behaviours so when it occurs in a truly serious way (NPD) it is not addressed properly. Now, there might be some merit in the ‘softer’ conditions not really requiring a label but it is a difficult path with dangerous consequences – think World War one – soldiers were shot for cowardice when actually they were suffering from PTSD but this was not recognised.

      Thus this reinforces the need for the Tudorites to keep spreading my work and keep banging on the doors of the various platforms to cause a shift in views, consequences and perceptions.

      1. Hg, While “piecemealing” the program to suit the masters’ narrative or agenda, your savvier audience will be able ascertain the importance of acknowledging the spectrum of human personality. Just listen to K’s response, we are not interested in a dog and pony show…just truth, understanding of and from, and authenticity. When I was seeing a therapist in August of 2017, I mentioned that I believed my sibling had a personality disorder. She was very dismissive of my attempt to approach this possibility, and reacted as if I were “out of my lane”. She sucked and I stopped seeing her. It is only your consult and writings that have allowed me some comfort in “knowing” that my experience was real and there exists a solution when engaging with difficult people. Also, any interview you do is valuable to the audience. There are no words to adequately convey the appreciation probably most of your readers feel about the gift of wisdom you have given us. You may not feel it, but that is Love…to You and from You.

        1. E&L
          They completely ignore the impact of the psychological, sexual, physical and financial abuse/violence of NPD, as well as, the long term and deleterious effects it has on the population as a whole.

          I am not surprised that your therapist dismissed you and did the right thing by disengaging with her.

      2. I sent feedback to the BBC about the broadcast saying how fascinated I was with you and what an excellent speaker you are but there just wasn’t enough of you featured and I want more. I also told them that I looked forward to hearing more from you across ALL BBC channels as a regular contributor.

        Tudorites Unite and Conquer!

  38. I am listening.
    You do NOT have to be a qualified doctor to recognize the signs of NPD.
    Anyone, including children, can recognize a narcissist.

    1. The APA and the DSM sucks! They do not discuss the horrific and long term impact of NPD abuse on the population. They are useless!

      1. The DSM is for diagnostic purposes only. It wouldn’t go into the fallout that NPD victims suffer.

          1. When the DSM V was released we all discovered, to our great chagrin, that every subtype under the Autism “umbrella” had been *completely* wiped out. Now, there’s only “ASD,” Autism Spectrum Disorder. The five dx that we knew were now down to only one. “ASD” says nothing about the severity, required treatment type, level of functioning, etc of someone with Autism. The dx is just….. ASD. Good luck with that there.
            HOWEVER, you yourself have referred to Narcissism as on a spectrum as well; one end Empath, the other end Narcissist. Most neurotypical folks fall somewhere in the middle I suppose? Perhaps knowing subtypes isn’t that important after all? Up for discussion.

            And you’re correct, narcissists don’t have subtypes in the DSM V either. You’re under the Cluster B umbrella and that’s all you get. As in, you’re different from a Borderline because you don’t have an attachment disorder. Those are the nuances. Diagnostic reliability & validity must be proven for a Greater, Mid-Ranger, Lesser, Malignant, Covert, etc. to be included as subtypes. The holier-than-thou White Coats aren’t interested in any of that. How would knowing the subtypes of Narcissists be useful anyhow? In addition, Narcissists aren’t exactly known for their willingness to be test subjects. Most don’t even know they are narcs (except for you….thank you) so it would be impossible at best to mete out the subtypes.

            Do you feel that if a psychiatrist knew whether the patient was a Greater, Mid-Ranger, or Lesser it would make a difference in their dx? It’s not as if the doc needs the correct dx in order to dispense the most efficacious psychotropic meds. There’s no cure & meds don’t help. Now, a THERAPIST knowing the difference…..there’s the golden ticket!

            I’m not being a know-it-all. It’s just that I have to know the DSM because it’s my job (as in my paying job). And I will tell you, many could not have been more disappointed in the DSM V when it was released. It was a major overhaul that many of us deemed unnecessary but…….it is what it is. At least homosexuality is no longer considered a “sexual disorder.” Oh happy day, thanks oh holy psychiatrists. 🙄

          2. 69Revolver, this is very interesting. Would you consider that narcissists don’t have an attachment disorder ? Unlike borderlines as you said in your comment. I personally think narcs do have an attachment disorder.

          3. 69Revolver,

            Thank-you for sharing your experience with the DSM. I found that very helpful.

            HG notes that the DSM fails to appreciate differing types of narcissists.

            You pointed out that the DSM V version replaced subtypes of Autism with a spectrum.

            I think that some people fail to appreciate that the DSM is not written in stone and that it is an evolving document that is informed by a select group of professionals, their particular research and cultural.

            As you noted, homosexuality is no longer considered a sexual disorder.

            I think the DSM needs to get up to speed in other ways as well.

          4. WhoCares, exactly! These “experts” made a lot of changes in the 5 and we thought, “Who says?” Who decides that Autism is now a spectrum disorder? That’s really different.
            Yes, it’s a living document. Who knows what changes will come next. At least it won’t be for a long while.

          5. 69Revolver,

            Just saw now that you replied. I find the whole area of the history of psychology interesting and how the definition and classification of ‘mental disorder’ and illness has evolved. And, moving forward, it will be interesting to see how it changes further.

      2. I agree with you 69 revolver. I don’t know that sub typed matter to the mental health community only to the extent of which behaviors might be more prevalent in each sub type. In the end it all plays out the same it’s just that one sub type may exhibit one particular behavior more than another. It really only matters to the victim as they try to understand what happened to them.

        Do all of the sub types matter to a Narc ? Nope. They don’t think they are a Narc and it rare that they go to therapy anyway. Should they land in therapy they stay just long enough to get what or whom they have lost back then it’s right back to how they were. Rinse and repeat

        1. HG, you are on fire today! I can’t keep up and do my job as I normally am able. It’s too bad my job is getting in the way! I’ll never catch up on the blog now…

        2. Hi K,
          I felt the same. It makes me angry and also helpless when people do not take this subject seriously. I think they prefer to live in denial because they are afraid of seeing and confronting the truth.

          1. Hello E. B.
            It is like we are living in a sugar coated fairy land. Let’s pretend it isn’t happening or minimize it. It makes my piss boil!

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