Dealing With The Evidence
Proof. The empathic individual has certain traits which mean gathering proof and exhibiting that proof to the narcissist and other parties is highly important. An empathic person is honest, decent, believes in the truth and has to have the truth known. This is not done from any sense of gloating or about showing how clever and virtuous the empathic person is. The empath operates this way because: –
- They want the truth to be known by third parties;
- They want to demonstrate that they are correct;
- They want to preserve their self-worth by showing the truth of the situation;
- They want to show other people that the narcissist is in the wrong;
- They want to demonstrate to the narcissist that what the narcissist has done or said is wrong. This is often done to try to help the narcissist, to heal and to fix, rather than engage in point scoring;
- It is done to preserve their sanity in the face of the false reality and all its manipulations which are deployed by our kind.
It often takes an empathic person a considerable amount of time to realise that merely explaining what has happened to our kind gets them absolutely nowhere. You may know precisely what has happened but if your recollection of events, no matter how accurate, does not accord with what we require, challenges us, stops us achieving our aims or worst of all constitutes a criticism, we will do anything and everything we can to distort your truth.
I use the phrase ‘your truth’ because it is always important to keep in mind that with each and every situation there is the Empathic Perspective and there is the Narcissistic Perspective. For example, you serve food for everybody and you start with the person nearest to you and this results in our kind being served last. From the Empathic Perspective, you regard this action as the most practical and the politest. From the Narcissistic Perspective, we view this as a criticism; we should have been served first. This criticism results in us being wounded, this causes the ignition of our fury and we may storm out of the dining room through our cold fury or we may fling the plate at the wall as a manifestation of heated fury, either actions occurring in order to draw fuel to heal the wound that has been created by your criticism of us.
Thus, you have the same event but two different perspectives. If you tried to explain to us that you had served people ahead of us because of practicality all you would be doing is repeating the criticism to us and igniting the fury once again. We will only have regard to our perspective and in the ensuing conversation we would engage in deflection, projection, blame-shifting, word salad and other manipulations to reject what you are asserting. From your perspective it appears innocuous, an over-reaction on our part, but from our perspective our response is completely justified.
What of a situation whereby you suspect we have been cheating with somebody else? Let us assume you have followed us and saw us pick up another woman who we embrace in our car and then head off to some secluded spot, a hotel or another location for the purposes of the tryst. You do not confront us but observe and then wait for our return that evening. You decide to remain calm and when we walk in through the door you state,
“You are cheating on me with a blonde-haired woman. I saw you pick her up this afternoon, kiss her and then I followed you to The Happy Ending Motel and saw you go in a room together.”
If you said this angrily, we would draw fuel from your reaction. We would recognize that this is an opportunity to gain more fuel from you and therefore we would look for ways to provoke you further. You are also challenging us. Whilst it does not manifest as a criticism, we still do not appreciate you trying to challenge our superiority and our entitlement to do as we please.
If you made this comment in a calm and neutral manner, you do not provide us with any fuel. You are also criticising us.
You have seen what has happened. It is not hearsay but you have witnessed our behaviour and you have told us so, providing sufficient detail to confirm its legitimacy. What might you hear in response? There are many different replies.
Denial “No I haven’t. I have been at work all afternoon.” Yes, we will be this brazen. Lies come easily to us.
Deflection. “Yes I was dropping a colleague off. She is staying there for a few days and we needed to talk about a project. You know the new plans for the development in the Old Quarter, well we are involved in that now and we need to put a proposal together in a very short time.” On we go talking about something else.
Projection. “I wasn’t doing anything wrong, not like you and that fellow, what is he called, Mike, I saw you getting close to him last week when you went for coffee.” This may or may not be true, it does not matter. It serves to draw a reaction from you and allows us to move the conversation away from what we have done.
Blame-Shift. “Who do you think you are following me? Who gives you the right to do that? There is something wrong with you. I am sick of you trying to control me.”
Blame-Shift. “So what if I am seeing somebody else, if you put out more than once in a blue moon, I wouldn’t have to go elsewhere would I? I am sick of working hard and coming in to this kind of crap.”
Disappearance – we just turn around and walk back out and disappear to some bolt hole for a few days.
Denial and Projection “I think you are mistaken, are you imagining things again? You keep doing this.”
Deflection and Gas Lighting “Oh that, nothing to worry about there, she is new to the company and I was showing her to where she is staying until her new apartment is ready. I know her from the Southern Office, so I greeted her with a kiss, that was all. Anyway, I told you I was doing this last week, don’t you remember? Yes, I told you all about it over dinner, you must have forgotten again. You seem to be doing that a lot recently.”
Verbal assault “Who do you fucking think you are? You are a miserable old cow. Creeping around watching what I am doing. Jesus, you are so fucking sad, I am sick of you. Look at the state of you.” Cue a tirade of insults which may escalate into breaking things and even attacking you.
No matter how you try to point out to us that you have seen us, you know what you saw, you know what the other woman looks like we will not hear what you are saying.
If you keep going and do so in an emotional manner, all we focus on is the fuel that we are giving you and continuing to provoke you to get more fuel.
If you do it without providing fuel, all we hear is the criticism. This wounds us and forces us to seek fuel from you (or if you continue not to provide it we will be forced to withdraw and seek fuel elsewhere).
We will not accept what you are saying, no matter how convincing you are and no matter how much detail you provide. You will be accused of making it up, reading something into nothing, taking it the wrong way, being confused, being mistaken along with all and more of the other manipulations mentioned above.
What about providing some independent evidence to us? What if you have evidence from our phone, in a document, an e-mail, a sound recording or a video? You decide to show us a video of what we did that afternoon in the hope and expectation that we must surely accept what we have done. It is there, recorded and on the screen. How will we respond?
Once again, depending on the way you have conveyed this to us, you will have either provided fuel (telling us there is more) and you have challenged us or you have criticised us. Our perspective means we need fuel, we want fuel, we need to assert our superiority, we need to maintain control, we need to keep you submissive and manipulated. Astonishing as it may seem, you can expect reactions akin to those above and these as well: –
- We will tell you the footage has been edited to make us look bad;
- We will say that the footage does not show the whole picture and is taken out of context;
- We will say it is somebody who looks like us but isn’t us;
- We will try to delete the footage;
- We will damage the device on which the footage is held;
- We will produce some different evidence which points to some imagined transgression on your part and focus on that instead;
If you have independent evidence of any kind, its production engenders the same response as detailed above because we look at it from an entirely different perspective. You can expect the independent evidence to be attacked, tampered with or destroyed along with the plethora of manipulations that have been described above.
You may think that showing our kind definitive proof of our wrongdoing would cause us to hold our hands up and admit we have been caught. It does not work with our kind in that way. We have been designed to see things in a different way so that we will respond to protect ourselves from your criticism (or to draw more fuel and head off your challenge) and that is what we see and hear – criticism and/or fuel. These devices and manipulations occur because: –
- We are never at fault;
- We are superior to you;
- We must be in control;
- We are omnipotent;
- You are inferior;
- We are entitled to do what we want;
- We need fuel; and
- We hate criticism.
Save your independent evidence for the third parties. Save your breath and your sanity.
The only thing you will ever prove is how predictable, as narcissists, we are, when are confronted with proof.
25 thoughts on “Dealing With The Evidence”
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Whenever I would present evidence I would just get stonewalled. He would essentially just hang up on me with no warning.
JACQUELINE
Presenting evidence in an unemotional manner is wounding or challenge fuel, if it was delivered with emotion. He deployed the Narcissist’s Twin Lines of Defense and used the second line: Distraction and Deflection.
The stonewalling and hang ups were Silent Treatments and they were done to assert control, draw fuel and to reinforce his need for superiority and self-worth.
I have kept my evidence. Years of stuff I’ve collected. I have no desire to use it against him but I’ve kept it in case I need it. He knows I could destroy his reputation and I think thats why I’ve been able to keep a little control over some of his tactics. As long as I’m silent I won’t be subject to the smear campaigns that I’ve witnessed him do to others.
As far as telling others ,there’s no point. The ones that are entangled with him will only believe his lies. I figure if one of his victims come to me it’s because they are starting to see who he is. Even then, they probably would choose not to believe.
I used to take a piece of evidence, even a shard of one, and wave it in my then-narc’s face, “SEE! I got you!”
I now see how naive I was. Not only did he explain it away with a big bowl of word salad, but he’d improve his tactics of deception.
Now, when I find old evidence (in my journals or texts or emails) or if I happen upon new evidence, I say nothing.
In remaining silent, evidence collects and builds upon itself without the narc being aware of it at all, so his tactics remain the same.
I’m finding that I feel better holding these evidence cards close to my chest.
I believe I have enough of them to serve cold revenge.
But I don’t even want revenge anymore. It’s fun having all this evidence and doing absolutely nothing with it.
lisk
This is an excellent example of challenge fuel: wave it in my then-narc’s face, “SEE! I got you!”. Your gesture of waving the evidence is fuel, as well as, your words, tone and facial expressions. Lots of fuel surrounded your challenge so he wasn’t wounded.
However, any challenge to his control requires a defensive response, which comes in two distinct forms: The first line is Denial. The second line is Distract and Deflect (Narc’s Twin Lines of Defence).
It looks like he skipped the first line: Denial, because you were waving the evidence in his face so he deployed the second line: Distract and Deflect. He used a word salad to provoke you into giving him more fuel, to assert control and reassert superiority. Your rebellion was squashed and all is well in his world. Based on his response (word salad) I think he is an MMRN.
Remaining silent is the best course of action. Have fun with the evidence!
HG Tudor
SEPTEMBER 28, 2018 AT 14:3
No, the only way to win the battle is not enter onto our battlefield.
My husband does stuff like this all the time but he is simultaneously a passive personality type and lacks the aggressive parts so it come across differently. One thing I have repeatedly said to him over the years “how do you choose the words you are using and what order to put them in?”.
I assume he doesn’t word salad at all at work, but that is with concrete numbers and figures that don’t ask questions.
Also frequently I can ask a question and he answers a completely different question, but I don’t know what intentional purpose that would serve when it could be something simple like “what do you want for dinner?” and the answer would be “I have to go to the bank in a little while” or something as an example, with no thought to ever answer the actual question. Or answer something in a half sentence leaving key information out. So it doesn’t seem related or intentional, but just makes me think that my need to have a question answered doesn’t register. I don’t even want to get into how that parlays into larger life decisions.
And yes, most times I would say something he did that bothered me some past entirely different example of something I did would be brought up so therefore I couldn’t possibly be having a feeling about it AND if I said something good that I did it was something he has done also.
Sometimes I am fine but there have been times I’ve been red faced with rage screaming at him that he is gaslighting me and I think I’m going to pass out.
When you point out the narc is lying, cheating or treating you like droppings. He will say your harassing him. Like a commenter mentioned. God forbid you tell the truth. They just fabricate some crazy story. That’s absolutely ludicrous to everyone and the lieutenants.
You have plainly presented the predictable narcissistic responses for years (so consistent, it’s as if they have a script). Your writings grabbed my attention in 2016. What once was a revelation and insight into the psyche of one malign narcissist targeting me, is now a playbook to consult since I see that most people in my world (the “closest” ones) are narcissists. Thankfully, only one is malign, but I (and my husband & children) have happily settled for no contact. We fight to maintain it. One of our kids is empathic, saddened by this. The MN triangulates him with gifts in the mail (and “you are our favorite”, etc). Geez,I need to block those things coming in the mail…
Have you written about the attraction between borderline personality disorder and narcissism? I can’t find hits thru the search function. Perhaps one of your kind liutenants can point me in the right direction? It’s unfathomable, trying to imagne how one keeps up with so many followers. Ya can’t exactly hire an assistant to answer all the Qs (unless you have a pocket full of spare malign narcs at the ready, who you trust to respond as you would). ha!
*lieutenants
No I have not written about that BO. Yes, it is only me that moderates and answers the questions. I would not want to hire anybody else for many reasons such as identity protection and the preservation of the excellent quality of information alongside the readers want HG, not HG Lite, so I remain that Army of One.
I’d be interested in reading your thoughts about the relationship between narcissism and borderline personalities. Many children of narcissists develop bpd, while others gravitate towards npd. There appears to be some similarities between the two, although the differences are too stark to lump them together. (guilt being one)
A recovered bpd author writes that a person with bpd THINKS they are empathic, but that their feelings of “absorbing” others’ moods is actually self-gratifying (? comparison made: ppl see sad movies to experience the absorbed emotions, but that does not create true empathy).
I keep wondering how, within the same household/genetic field, one child becomes/is a narc while others develop bpd, both pretty set in by age 3. And they seemto have a polar magnetism (bpd and npd).
I’d be interested in your thoughts on this.
Will the real slim shady please
Stand up!
Hi K
when this was posted in April 2018, you commented on it
That you thought your mum was an idiot before realising different types of gas lighting ?
could you give an example of what your comment means ?
thanks
Hello lisa
Here are several examples:
1. When I was a child she would deny my sister’s blatant drug abuse, drug dealing and overdoses by pretending it wasn’t happening.
2. Lightening struck the house causing an electrical fire in the wall but she refused to call 911 even though flames were shooting out of the wall. I ended up making the call.
3. We had a mouse infestation and, when I told her I saw mice, she responded by calling me a fucking liar.
4. My brother lit one of his classmates on fire but that never happened.
5. My brother was building bombs in the cellar but that wasn’t happening either.
I thought she was fucking cuckoo! But now I realize she is just a narcissist.
Wow K, that’s some pretty extreme stuff, how awful for you , I’m so sorry you experienced those things and thank you for taking the time to respond.
So would you say that this complete denial of problems is a refusal to take any accountability for her parenting or lack of ? Or is it just lack of caring ?
K
Never a dull moment at your house growing up, was there? 😄
These are horrific abuses! #s 4 & 5: what did your brother do when he heard these?!
WS
Ha ha ha…no, there was never a dull moment in my childhood, ever. The police were often involved and it was quite violent.
Becoming Observant
My mother deleted everything.
The school called my mother in for a meeting and suspended my brother. The Brothers (catholic school) realized after meeting my mother that she was clearly abusive and they felt bad for my brother and took pity on him. I only found out about it through my empath sister and my MMRN who was in the same class when my brother lit the kid on fire. Other students doused out the flames and there was minimal damage to his classmate. Thank God!
The bomb was very interesting because I told my mother what he was up to and she completely ignored me, so I was like WTF!?! and I dropped it.
Later on when he was testing his bomb out (outside), he charred the side of the house all the way up to the second floor. Thank God the house was sided with asbestos shingles.
From my POV, it was like living in a Loony Bin but from their POV, that was normal.
You are welcome lisa
And, thank you for your kind words. Honestly, I think my mother is just a lower lesser narcissist and that is how she functioned in her reality.
So, she displays the typical lack of accountability, entitlement, caring and empathy, as well as, gas lighting, triangulation (my twin was golden; I was scapegoated) and control (rewriting history).
On a positive note, I am not as angry at her, or my twin, as I once was.
Oops, it should read: lack of caring and empathy.
I have played that movie many times very very efficiently . I am a great detective – I find so many things. I should say … I found.
I no longer get in that evidence game that always ends up biting me back.
Now it’s like when I meditate and my mind start wandering … I say « oh my mind is wandering « and I go back to my mantra.
When I see an evidence or the blink of an evidence … i just say « oh – that’s an evidence « and I go back to my life.
I truly depleted myself with the evidenced and showing him how smart I was – how brilliant my mind was – etc … no more – there will be evidences , inevitably so why bother ???
Always avoid multi-point evidence in any correspondence. They will lump them all together and dismiss them all, and if you ever bring it up again, you are “beating a dead horse.” Responses I’ve heard: “you can say this and that, but YOU…” or “I din’t complain when YOU do the same thing.” (I have never done that!/happens all the time/when?/all the time/name one time/stop harassing me I will not address this again… ad nauseum)
BO ! I knew I would end up running in someone here that is with the same Narc as I 🙂 text book what I got – dead horse etc
OMJ
Thats a great way to look at it. Shifting your focus away from that which once was. Yes you will uncover evidence, but that is only good in the beginning to understand what you are dealing with. Once you know – it is just twisting the knife in yourself and changes nothing.