Why The Narcissist Must Reject Intimacy

INTIMACY

Narcissists abhor intimacy.

Why is that? It is an instinctive and necessary response. Intimacy creates attachment. As I have explained in Attachment Is The Seat Of Misery we attach our victims to us, but we do not attach to you. If we became attached to our victims we would not thrive and survive because our fuel needs would not be met as fully as they must be. We must be in a position to move forwards, unhindered, unfettered and unleashed. We must be free of anything which slows us down and prevents us from achieving The Prime Aims .

Our necessity of being able to jettison our appliances in one guillotine action drives this rejection of attachment and thus it follows, we have to reject intimacy. Intimacy creates bonds, it creates links, bridges and couplings – that is all very well when it is done to bind you to us, that is permissible but it must not and cannot be reciprocated.

Take for example a failing Intimate Primary Partner Source (“IPPS”) (a spouse, partner, boyfriend/girlfriend) who is no longer providing us with the requisite fuel, character traits and residual benefits which are necessary to our survival. This person has been idealised, they have been devalued and there has now been a disengagement trigger. We must reject them wholesale, we cannot dally about the task, holding on and keeping them as the IPPS when they are not functioning properly. That is highly likely to cause in all narcissists (save the Greater and even then to us it will still cause problems) a fuel crisis. A fuel crisis would arise because the narcissist would continue to engage with an appliance which is not delivering and the narcissist, if attached in some way, would be dedicating too much time for too little reward. Time would not be available to draw fuel from the secondary and tertiary sources to compensate for the shortcomings of this IPPS. The result would be a fuel crisis or at the least, a reduction in fuel levels which would cause the narcissist to function less effectively and feel the presence more fully of that ever present chasm of oblivion.

The narcissist may have a Candidate IPSS (“Intimate Partner Secondary Source”) waiting in the wings, ready to be crowned IPPS, but because the incumbent IPPS remains, this fresh, functioning appliance cannot yet be locked-on to the narcissist. Thus the narcissist finds themselves in a position of malfunctioning IPPS without being able to draw fully on the bountiful fuel (and other benefits ) of the IPPS-In-Waiting. A terrible state of affairs.

This is the scenario that intimacy threatens to generate. If intimacy is allowed then it will create tendrils that bind us to you and make it all the harder to jettison you at the flick of a switch or push of a button. By rejecting intimacy, the threat of attachment is countered.

Yet, what then of those narcissists that DO exhibit intimacy in the heady days of the seduction, those tender touches burnished with the fiery tinge of the golden period, those hugs, those delicate brushes of skin on skin, the gentle embrace of parted lips upon parted lips? I know many of you will have experienced that and indeed I have exercised such behaviour myself on many occasions – is that not then going to create intimacy and thus risk attachment which will prejudice our existence?

Not all narcissists will exhibit such intimacy. That is a preliminary point. It is far less likely to occur within the Lesser school of narcissist. It will be evident amongst Mid Range and Greater Narcissists. Why does it appear if intimacy is abhorrent to us? Simply, as with all matters ‘narc’, our narcissism causes us to do whatever is necessary to acquire what is required for our existence and supremacy. If that means mirroring your delight in rescuing puppies then we will do it, if that means demonstrating an enthusiasm for Asian fusion cuisine then we will do it, if that means singing along to Celine Dion then… well maybe there are some places we will not go. However, if intimacy is a necessary device (and it invariably is) to securing the seduction of a target then our narcissism drives down and supresses our innate abhorrence of intimacy for the purposes of the greater gain ; namely your seduction and ensnarement.

All well and good so far in using intimacy to ensnare, but where does that then leave us with regard to the risk of attachment and the consequential impact on our needs? Intimacy often appears through seduction. It is not felt, but rather it is administered as a consequence of understanding how the victim desires this, how it is so useful at supporting the illusion and enabling us to bring that victim under control. Of course its application is entirely instinctive (save with added calculation where a Greater is involved) and is achieved through copying what has gone before and is seen elsewhere – between other people, in books, in film, what is spoken of by other people in various forms. The intimacy is manufactured and applied with a skill which causes this counterfeit tenderness to appear genuine – but it is not.

It is superficial and merely a gloss. Yes, it appears to all intents and purposes to be something genuine. It is certainly real because you do not imagine it, but it is not genuine and because, as your emotional thinking surges owing to your repeated and sustained entanglement with us, you do not scratch beneath the surface and accept that what you see is what you are truly getting. Thus, since it is not an emotional response, but a learned one, this renders attachment far less likely. However, our narcissism is not done yet. It must ensure that there is no risk whatsoever of attachment. Accordingly, Stage One is the process of preventing attachment through the application of intimacy in an entirely shallow manner. Stage Two is the process of devaluation.

The application of devaluation means that intimacy is withdrawn. Gone are the hugs either in their entirety or they are replaced by brief, card-board stiff interactions. The long, lingering kiss is taken from you and either has no replacement or is substituted with a brief peck on the lips, the cheek or the forehead. No longer will we hold your hand, no longer will we gaze into your eyes, no longer will we allow our fingers to trace the contours of your body making your skin tingle.

The application of devaluation and with it the removal of the false intimacy is a safeguard to ensure that IF there was a slight possibility of intimacy creating attachment, it is totally removed. Devaluation paves the way for an eventual disengagement (if there is a trigger) so that the disengagement is swift, effective and in one fell swoop.

Imagine if you will an escape chute. For this to be effective it must be clear and uncluttered. If vegetation (intimacy) grows across this chute it might block it altogether and prevent a prompt escape or it might be partial and slow and hinder the escape. Thus the false intimacy means that the growth of this vegetation across the chute is minimal, slow and far less likely. Devaluation is the flame thrower which comes along to burn away any encroaching vegetation, so come the point of escape (disengagement) this is totally effective.

Thus, our narcissism rejects true intimacy and applies false intimacy and then removes this false intimacy through devaluation. Accordingly, the rejection of intimacy means that attachment will not happen. Therefore, when our needs dictate you go and are replaced by another or just let go and existing appliances are relied on, the disengagement is swift, absolute and effective. We waste neither time or energy, allowing our resources to be wholly directed towards those prime aims and especially the acquisition of fuel.

Intimacy must be rejected to facilitate our existence and success.

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287 Comments

  1. BKK and Windstorm,

    Well said BKK. I feel the same way about Windstorm. She helps many in her personal and professional life, and here. She is one empath I like having on my side!

    1. Hi, Jenna … Thank you so much. I tried to respond to one of your comments elsewhere, a few days ago. I typed a response and it went “poof,” I went back and tried again yesterday… same thing. It might be that particular spot was so full of data or Jesus was trying to tell me to keep my mouth shut! So I didn’t try for a third time. But it was nothing bad… just narc talk, their characteristics and how I feel like I’ve adopted some of their traits all too easily. Whatever I was trying to say first inorganic your comment, but like plenty that I say… it must not have been that important if I can’t even recall!

      Anyway, that’s sweet of you to say about Windstorm. She does seem to be a pretty special lady.

      I’m not always “here” as I have to pop in and out (due to busy-life-stuff and my occasional need to de-escalate from all this pain) but I haven’t seen you around, so I was also trying to say that it’s good to know you’re well! 😊

      1. Hi BKK,

        Thanks for your reply. It has happened to me too where I will type a comment, a very long one at that, and then the page refreshes and it’s gone! So I do understand what you mean! About acquiring narc traits while with the narc, it happened to me also, that’s why I am determined to lose them. I want to bring happiness and peace to people in my life. It sounds a little sappy but it is a conscious rewiring of the brain that I am aiming towards. So far, so good! I have to admit, it’s a little boring at times, because sometimes I feel like commenting here on certain issues, but I think twice these days, because I am so scared that my comment might hurt someone. That is the last thing that I want to do. I do not want the wiring to reverse. I want the highly empathic pathways to be reinforced and gain high prominence. Not that I was a bad person before lol, but I was overly sensitive for sure.

    1. To provoke you and secure against any risk of potential attachment. Remember, although the intimacy is false, most narcissists do not recognise that (they think it is genuine and therefore that creates a risk which must be removed).

      1. That’s tough to understand HG. So a narcissist hates attachment and rejects intimacy yet they think they have intimacy or express intimacy well? That sounds like they are striving for intimacy. Or ? Something. Are you saying that unaware narcs are just acting blindly yet in a mandatory fashion to achieve the one way attachment (Fuel pump to narc) ?If so how do they stop their own attachment if they think they’re being intimate and vulnerable? Argg – it’s very confusing. Backflow stopper installed is put in place why?
        A healthy normal person will eventually reject false intimacy. So with the new woman are you betting on trauma bonding via intermittent reinforcement?

        1. Their narcissism halts the attachment. Think of it as a ‘host’ which is the narcissist – the Lesser or MidRange unaware of what they are and why they act as they do – with the narcissism acting to protect the host by causing the host to operate in particular ways. By analogy, if you touch something that is hot (not realising it was hot) , your reflex action makes you jerk your hand away – you do not think ‘oh this is hot I had better move my hand’ you just do it. Your reflex action protects you.

  2. Gabrielle,

    I hope you see this…I lost your last reply comment to me/reply link with it. A flood of thread comments came into my inbox, & your reply got accidentally deleted, when I actually meant to save it.

    I read what you said about your birthday party. Timing is everything sometimes, so if you would like, give me a reply back after your party/tell me how you’re feeling subsequent to that…and I still may have a few specific thoughts to share with you.

    For now, I think “silence is silver” (not saying “golden,” as that now reminds us of narcissists!) — and I’m also not giving you the “silent treatment,”; instead, I’m giving you extra time to reflect inwardly. Sometimes things transpire that have a way of helping someone see something important, all by themselves – and your birthday may be one of those times.

    Enjoy your party & friends. Smile/laugh lots, and do not rely on anyone for your joy that special day. You can bring your inner joy forth, for yourself.

    XO,
    Caroline

    1. Hi Caroline. I did not see any previous comments from you other than the original one which I replied to, but I am seeing this one, so I wanted to reply. Yes my birthday and my party are both this weekend. Piano boy still has not told me yet whether he will be in attendance or not. He seems to be dragging it out until the last minute. I have no idea what is going to happen but then again that’s usually how these things work out. This is his indirect way of making sure the spotlight is focused on him and his decision. Although he would never view it that way because he such a good person. 🙄
      I am always willing to listen to whatever you would like to say to me, whenever you feel like saying it. Despite the desire I have in hoping for his presence at my party, I promise you I will do the best I can do ensure that I enjoy my day no matter what and not let it be about his decision to attend or not.

      1. Gabrielle,

        That-a-girl!

        This was my only other reply to you — because I really want you to focus on your party now, not him! But we can go back-and-forth after your party~just send me a reply any ol’ place on the blog. BTW, I just love your emoji faces – they’re so spot-on & never fail to make me laugh. :-)

        Okay, so here’s the plan:
        -Do not expect “Piano Boy” to show.
        -Please, no piano at your party!
        -Have a blast & enjoy all your blessings — and deal with the narcissistic junk another day!

        XO!

  3. Thank you Kathleen. I would like to know nothing about devaluation but being with a narcissist you can’t avoid this haha.

  4. Oh the old approach/avoid thing again. You are afraid of being hurt, as we all are. Be brave with Shieldmaiden but not to the extent that you have to sing along to Celine Dion – ewww. If she has asked you to, you should dump her now!! Norwegians are not known for their musical taste.

    Have you read any of Karl Ove Knausgard’s autobiography? I only made it through the first volume (about his father mostly) but I liked it a lot.

      1. If fictionalized (?) memoir interests you, read at least the first volume. Distant parents, death, the mundane. I’d be curious to hear what you think.

    1. SMH,
      I remember you posting here in the past about attachment styles. I have been reading more about them and can now see that narcissists are dismissive avoidant by definition. I’m still confused about myself. I seem to be anxious preoccupied in romantic relationships, but very avoidant in family and friendship….no idea why that would be. I’ll be talking to my therapist about it shortly.
      I also have been reading that the approach-avoid pattern in attachment styles is probably the most destructive relationship pattern that exists….but for me it also feels familiar, as that is how I remember my mother being. Mostly ignoring my existence altogether, but once in a while being very affectionate and depending on me for her validation (likely when my dad wasn’t around).
      The psychology of all of this is exhausting, and I’m so very tired of dealing with it. I just wish I could be normal, and not feel anxious all the time.

      1. Supernova DE, I have the same problem. A mother who was/is dismissive avoidant, except when she needs attention. I like to think I have a healthy attachment style but I really do not. I can be very avoidant too though not so dismissive – maybe more fearful avoidant?

        I am not a psychologist but it seems to me that attachment, even in adulthood, partly depends on the style of the other person. Narc was of course also an avoidant (though maybe fearful like me rather than dismissive like my mother? hard to know). But my mother is fairly predictable and narc had this rapid approach/avoid thing – hour to hour, week to week. It made me very anxious, just like yours, but I am not normally anxious, even in romantic relationships.

        I used to talk to narc about it – I’d say ‘why am I acting like a toddler with her mother? It’s not as if my mother abandoned me’ etc. I was pretty fascinated by it all, even though it was painful. I probably tolerated it because, like you, I was somewhat conditioned. I have also learned here how to better deal with my mother.

        Are you anxious with your husband? If not, that is probably a healthy attachment and your anxiety will disappear once the N is out of your life. It is exhausting, I agree. But it’s not YOU. It’s relational.

        1. SMH,
          I think my baseline style is fearful avoidant.
          When I first met my husband I was this way, he used to make many comments about it being very hard to get to know me and that I wouldn’t let him in.
          I am absolutely like that with every single person I meet. My husband is probably the only person on this earth who knows the real me. The narc and maybe two or three close friends know me fairly well, but I just generally can’t go all in…ever…and I have no problem with that and no desire to change it.
          Though it is sometimes difficult for me to tell what is avoidant attachment style and what is introversion, because I am very introverted as well, and don’t like talking to people all that much. Oddly, I talk to people ALL DAY at my job haha.

          But once I let my husband (and narc) in, I am more anxiously attached. I am a very confident person, I acknowledge I am smart and fun to talk to, have interesting opinions, and am physically/sexually attractive. I don’t feel I have self esteem issues.
          Despite that, with my husband, when life gets busy and we do not have time to have good talks or we haven’t had sex in a week or whatever, I need a lot of reassurance from him to feel that the relationship is still on track. It irritates him, but we have figured out over time how to work it out.
          Obviously, when I wanted the reassurance from narc when he was actually pulling away, that’s when all the problems starting arising….cue my manipulations, his counter-manipulations, and all the chaos and crazy making that ensued.

          1. That’s interesting, Supernova DE. I don’t think I could be with someone I was anxious with (cue huge problems with MRN because of my anxiety). I think normally I put walls up/pull away so that I don’t find myself in that position. I’ve done it in just about every relationship, and just about every guy I have ever been with has 1) told me I do whatever I want regardless of them and 2) my work gets in the way because I am very single-minded and dedicated to it. Several times I have upped and moved to another country in the middle of a relationship. Or I will lock myself up for days while I am working on something. I am happiest in long distance relationships and would have been happy that way with MRN too. It was just his inconsistency that I could not handle.

            I don’t think my normal behavior is caused by anxiety. It rather makes me anxious to be too close, which I think is the mark of a true avoidant. I had this problem with ExH, who was very anxiously attached. The more anxious he got, the more avoidant I got. Kind of the opposite of what happened with MRN, though MRN and I did talk about it and he responded postively (like your husband), at least for awhile.

            I am very extroverted, which does not sound like you. Maybe you are anxiously attached as a rule? I don’t know how that would be connected to self-esteem as I never put the two together. I think of myself as having normal or even high self-esteem but I think people with high esteem can be extroverted avoidants or be introverted and have some anxiety in intimate relationships. I think these are all self-protective things that we do – and narcs do them too – they just are not self-aware and don’t care to examine their own behavior because their needs get met whereas ours don’t, which is why we question everything.

            It seems to me that if you and your husband have open communication, you should be able to resolve the problem if he understands your attachment issues. Maybe it is worth seeing a therapist about? At least to have a better idea of what the dynamic is and whether you can fix it? It would be much more relaxing for you because as you said, this all is very exhausting! I did not figure any of this out until I split up with exH, and that was just before I met MRN, so it is all jumbled together in my head! I wasn’t much interested in the psychology of all of this until recently.

          2. Just want to add, Supernova DE, that my problems with MRN were similar to yours – but it was a repeating pattern. I would get anxious and he would pull away (except for during one period when he very consciously stayed connected for a whole month). But then I would pull away because I couldn’t take the anxiety, and he would approach again when I had calmed down. I would return to him, he would make me anxious, I would pull away, he would pull me back etc – that is why I said I think we are both fearful avoidants. He didn’t try to make things worse when I would pull away – he would be really sweet whenever I would come back, but then the whole cycle would repeat. It was like we both needed breaks all the time to calm down, which is why this period of NC might seem like just another break to him (not to me though).

          3. SMH,
            I can see in myself that I am avoidant at all times and that the anxious pattern comes about In two scenarios: when I feel on the brink of being abandoned (cue issues from dismissive mother) or when I am expected to open up and be vulnerable.
            This layers with my introversion (or is the introversion a result of the avoidance?) so that I don’t have close friends, or close relationships with my family. That does not bother me in the least.
            The situation with MMRN was perfect. Long distance, text and phone etc. There is only so much intimacy that can be gained in that situation and I found relief in that. But our pattern was EXACTLY as you describe and each of us needed breaks frequently, but for slightly different reasons. Of course at the time I felt abandonment in his needing a break and it spiraled for me.
            My husband and I have been together so long and genuinely love each other so we have worked out the kinks in these attachment styles over time with open and honest communication….something you can’t do with a narc.

      1. Thaks Hg !
        I hope you dedicate something for us, the relations with our type is not similar during and at the end of the society with the narcissist although it fulfills the beginnings already identified by you.
        recommended reading?
        Bona nite!

  5. By the way, HG, does this kind of mean, that the ex narc told the truth for once, when he said that he wasn’t intimacy phobic … ??
    And he did it on purpose?!

  6. Mr. HG:
    1. How does love look from your eyes? (Great Narcissist Major)
    2. Why is your new relationship different for you? Could you share key points that cover / fill your new partner to feel that your needs are covered?
    Thks!

  7. I do not feel love for the narcissist. I never did. It was always addiction, infatuation and Trama binding.

  8. So, if a woman never stopped being un-enthusiastic with a narc, he would still have to devaluate her, unless she reached his idea of perfection? Has any woman come close? What is the longest golden period has any woman been blessed with, that anyone knows of?

  9. Is a narcissistic able to feel a closeness with perhaps friends from primary school? Or is that also feigned? I noticed that narc seems more natural and himself with old friends.

    1. That is the product of the greater sense of control, the reduced challenge to the narcissist’s sense of superiority and the fuel provision.

  10. I think the best outcome is a person that stays in the dysfunctional for a long long time. This relationship caused me to face my “need for approval or need for love from unavailable people “ and to face why I’d stay in something so effed up- when I had all the means to walk(friends, good job, etc)
    Inthink the garden variety mid ranger narc flourished in a conflict based relationship where they continually pull the strings. Only a very low self esteem/ or disadvantaged or trapped person would stay. I think like – trophy wife or golddigger as ultimate negative example.
    And I mean absolutely no insult to anyone who got involved with a narcissist and gotten trapped and stayed for decades. I’m not claiming to understand everyone’s circumstances. But to soothe my own mind about understanding these people- I kind of think of a typical situation would be an older wealthy man -who is a narcissist assist as well-manipulating a much younger girl(or boy) Before that younger person has been able to establish their identity or has been able to secure their own financial support. Anyway I’m rambling off topic thank you

  11. HG, genuine intimacy would involve giving of your ‘true self’ and being deeply vulnerable with another person, something that is impossible for the narcissist due to childhood abuse. You were never shown love and affection as a child therefore your brain was not wired correctly and now as an adult can never be rewired – no empathy.

    Therefore, everyone must be kept at a distance regardless of where they sit in the fuel matrix – control, power, chaos and everyone at arms length. No one can ever be allowed to see the real HG. Even you don’t know who you are.
    Is that correct?

    So…… are you destined to wander through life never truly connecting with another living soul. Never, ever, feeling truly loved and cherished just for being ‘you’ despite all the women who have probably expressed their deep love for ‘you’ over the years.

    May I also ask, despite what looks like another exciting GP for you and your new friend, is the desire to remove ‘the mask’ any stronger this time.
    (Hope that’s not too personal).

    Thanks for your time. Best wishes to you as always x

      1. Irrelevant, really?

        Sorry, but you told me once on this blog that you didn’t even know who ‘you’ are.

        Just trying to understand the intimacy thing on a deeper level HG. No offence to you.

        Thanks for you time. xx

        1. No offence taken, the point is one has needs, so long as those needs are addressed the manner by which that is achieved is ultimately irrelevant.

      2. HG, NA this touches on the love vs addiction topic. How can you say she truly loves you HG? Might it be that she is only addicted? Her brain and body flooded by the chemicals of infatuation?

      3. HG, it IS relevant!
        Honeysuckle, please… listen to me… I have no doubt that Shieldmaiden cherishes you (you – the aspects of the man that is real as well as what is feigned). You have her hooked. And if you were to reveal to her a portion of your secrets, she won’t stop loving you. She’s in too deep right now.

        Even if she is well-read on NPD, no one TRULY understands this disorder until she/he has been intimately involved and then discarded… so at this point, SM would likely accept your disorder with love and understanding.
        It’s what we empaths do.
        She might be cautious, more guarded, taken aback,… but if you’ve weaseled your way into her heart (or if this actually unfolded a bit more naturally) once you’re granted a place inside the heart of a true empath, we still love you… even when we hate you. (Now for the rare few who reach true indifference, that’s another story, but we’re nowhere to that point yet here.)

        Now, I am NOT encouraging you to reveal yourself to her at this juncture. I am only saying that whether she is a.) trying to slowly build a romantic relationship with you that started as a friendship or b.) you two are simply colleagues who have an FWB (hated to say fuckbuddy) type of agreement or c.) if she truly is “The One” and you are doing your best to have pure intentions here… she is already enmeshed. (What am I saying – you’re the greater who made sure of that?)

        Anyway, what I am trying to say is… yes, you are right, she is getting what she needs by believing your GP image and you are definitely getting what you need by being fueled. But for ANY relationship to last… to get past that inevitable itchy period of, “I’m starting to get a little bored here.” … there has to be some form of real intimacy. A genuine bond needs to have been formed.

      4. So are you mirroring her like usual or are you trying the “new method ” set in by the good doctors?

      5. I am very proud of you, HG… for allowing me to call you Honeysuckle and for your efforts regarding Shieldmaiden.

        Seriously, this effort is groundbreaking, and I wouldn’t be an empath if it didn’t warm my heart. But one day at a time, right? (It sure ain’t gonna be easy.)

        Still, hang in there, sir. If anybody can do it, it will be you.

      6. Dear Mr Tudor,
        My female tuition is feeling this …. “something, hmmmmm” …. about you and lady L
        I’m not sure what it is, but ?????? …. we shall see
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    1. A383, Hope you dont mind the intrusion of a third party”s observations:
      You speak in absolute assertions, yet objective research (Ill avoid references to keep this brief) has shown that narcissism is likely created as a coping mechanism to lack of attunement (demonstratable love, affection, care, meeting of needs, being seen and heard and responded to accordingly.). We all have coping mechanisms, but not all rise to the level of a personality disorder.

      Coping mechanisms and personality disorders can change, but require a sustained desire to do so, self awareness and intelligence to learn and choose different behaviors and the willingness to risk trying something that may trigger fears. New neural pathways can be created. Behavior can be modified. Change is possible.

      I think HG has been exceptionally candid in revealing himself on this blog and in his other works. He is known here and loved (not romantically, but loved unconditionally none-the-less). As for his relationship with Shieldmaiden, I have no doubt he is loved and adored and cherished by her. If she came to know of his narcissism, she may come to understand it and choose to stay or choose to go, yet still love him. Love is a complex experience and defined differently by everyone. Even the same individual will come to a different understanding of love over time.

      I do not know HG beyond his works, but I agree with BKK, if anyone can alter their behavior, HG can. More impressively, he has expressed a desire to do so. My hope is that HG will find his new endeavors a worthwhile experience and continue to explore less hurtful ways to meet his needs.

      Lastly the concept of ones self is ever evolving.

      Hope this was helpful.

        1. HG, have you ever considered what you’d do should SM decide to break up with you after you tell her about your psychopathy? Or you are sure she will stay?
          Sorry if someone has asked this already.

          1. LOL. I know. I was just trying to see if you had considered that scenario. Thanks for answering my question.

          2. You are welcome. The key will be to ensuring no such adverse reaction. I am confident that will be achieved.

          3. Hi HG,

            What do you think of showing her narcsite and asking her opinion of hg tudor? Then you will have some idea of what she thinks. Although I don’t know how she would not have heard of you considering you’re on youtube too. “A psychopath” – I almost forgot you’re a psychopath. I hope people don’t shorten it to ‘psycho’ lol!

          4. Oh I am sure you will present things in a way that will avoid a negative reaction from her (you big smoothie)
            Will you let us know how it went when you finally tell her?

          5. Well, if you can’t and won’t attach to SM, it would be good if she doesn’t attach to you either. Don’t you think? It would be better if she entered the relationship more with her head than her heart.
            But I guess that, if she is a CEO earning 7 figures, she must be the kind of woman that doesn’t lose her head.

          6. Lou
            Ha, it’s all good. I was going to say in that case I’d never find out, unless someone gets a message to my naughty stool.

          7. Yes, I was thinking of the naughty stool when I wrote my comment.
            But there are also the ones in the dungeon.

      1. FYC – thanks for your input and thanks for keeping it brief!

        It wasn’t really helpful if I’m being honest.

        First off, you are correct, you and I do not know HG – thankfully many would say… however, I believe I am correct in my assertions having been raised in a narcissistic household myself and entangled with many over the years.

        Unfortunately, for me, I feel HG skirted over the real issue of why intimacy is to be avoided – and I was perhaps trying to push him further to reveal more – i.e. “it’s because my mother never loved me properly and now I have to take it out on everyone else…. especially women.”

        I agree with you when you say narcissism is a coping mechanism due to abuse suffered during childhood but let’s be clear – and every expert in the world would say the same thing – THERE IS NO CURE FOR NPD.

        Yes, sure, they can perhaps adapt their behaviours somewhat (Sam Vaknin himself only recently said this in one of Richard Grannon’s videos) but only for short periods and only if there’s “something in it for them in the short term.”

        But real … REAL change is not possible – “give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man!” Aristole/Jesuits.

        But perhaps you know different FYC.

        Sorry HG… them’s the breaks!

        Most of the people on this blog – not all – are merely willing HG to change because he helped them (including myself)… “so why can’t he help himself.”

        I’ve yet to read anyone here (despite all the super empaths who were ensnared by greaters allegedly here amongst us) or on any other blog or forum relating to NPD for that matter, say “I was the lucky one, my narcissist managed to adapt his behaviour and now everything is great.”

        Unfortunately, for most sufferers of NPD, including my own father, death will be their only escape from this dreadful disorder.

        That will also include HG’s mother – herself a victim of childhood abuse (I believe HG revealed that) but yet, very little empathy displayed on this blog for her… is it because she’s a woman I wonder.. mmmm!

        But hey .. the IG pictures are great! Might as well have some fun meantime.

        Best wishes FYC and to you of course HG. x

        1. No, the behaviour of MatriNarc is not the sole cause of the rejection of intimacy. The rejection of intimacy arises as part of narcissism, which as I have repeatedly and consistently explained is a self-defence mechanism first and foremost. Narcissism arises as a consequence of genetic predisposition and environmental factors (here is where one includes the behaviour of MatriNarc but that behaviour is intermingled with other factors).

      2. A383, Thank you for your expanded perspective. I have researched this area for a few years and do not claim to be an authority. I do however try to take a meta analysis from existing data from a variety of sources in an effort to understand and form an opinion.

        I am not trying to create false hope. I am suggesting, current psychological journals do note change is possible. It is not possible for another to change (i.e. “fix” or “heal”) another person. Change is only possible if an individual strongly desires to embark on such an endeavor; gains an understanding of the contributing factors (via the cortical brain), learns how to affect said changes through behavioral modification creating new outcomes and thereby offering the individual an opportunity for a different experience. These efforts would need to be sustained by the individuals ongoing. There are many hard-wired elements that influence this process as previously outlined.

        Most people do not seek real change. It is a significant undertaking. My understanding of coping mechanisms is they remain because their perceived reward is greater than the risk of confronting the fears/experience/injury that created the coping mechanism at an early stage of brain development (limbic brain and brain stem). Further, these memory tracks are laid down as experienced as a child. So as an adult we can comprehend the issues but struggle to address the original emotional injury. But there are techniques to do so for the rare person that pursues this.

        I apologize in advance if this waxed too nerdy but I am trying to be precise because of the importance of this topic. As for HG’s comment about a genetic predisposition, it has been speculated and some assert such a link has been identified, however this remains contested by other researchers not definitively proven. I certainly do not know what is empirically correct. And, I too am influenced by my own experience with narcs (familial and otherwise) and my emphatic traits so you are correct that I cannot be objective.

        The changes HG has chosen to pursue will not be easy, but I believe possible given his unique set of circumstances.

        I hope you find the answers you seek and appreciate the discussion.

      3. FYC and A383

        I enjoyed reading both of your individual views and points and will keep them in mind as I observe. Thank you for offering them.

      4. “You are welcome. The key will be to ensuring no such adverse reaction. I am confident that will be achieved.”

        She probably is a strong person that can handle the truth, but, like most of us before discovering narcsite, doesn’t know about narcissism. Even if you’re doing your best to treat her the best you can, I can imagine it will be very hard for her to accept/understand that you will never love her the way she loves you. Of course, you are the one with all the knowledge to explain her everything, but, do you think you’ll also visit your doctors together? Or another neutral person? Or is that a very strange thought?
        I mean, it might be a bit shocking for her to just start reading your books. I’m probably thinking too far ahead.🤔

      5. NA, You are certainly welcome. I enjoy reading your comments as well. I especially appreciated your comment on the costs—perfectly stated.

      6. Thank you, FYC.
        See, HG,… See….
        FYC said it well. We aren’t making this shit up because we’re mushy empaths. There’s some (albeit relatively new) science behind it.
        Now for my disclaimer on science:
        The incredible edible egg was seriuosly studied at least 17 times…
        Good for you; bad for you; good for you, bad… until science decided that eggs are GOOD for us. (Woo-hoo – I love eggs. 🐣) Most people can safely consume 1 – 3 eggs per day without greatly affecting their cholesterol or increasing heart disease.
        So I’m just warning that science seemingly “changes” everyday with new studies. So who knows where anything will eventually go?

        But FYC is right about laying down new neural pathways. Say I have OCD (which I don’t, but I do… meaning no official diagnosis, but sometimes I feel as if this form of anxiety hits me with certain issues) … Hypothetically, say I have one of the stereotypical version of OCD in that I can’t leave my home without going back to check and see if I left the iron on. The more I go back and check the iron, the more those neural pathways are going to strengthen… like a well-worn path in the carpet… only I’m talking getting stronger not wearing down.
        You got our drift.

        Nothing about changing anything is easy, especially when we are speaking of the inner core of who we are. And I appreciate that most narcissists see absolutely no need to adjust their way of coping, so we’re not taking about turning a toad into a prince. We’re just talking about Prince Charming exhibiting repeated behaviors that will strengthen his neural pathways.

        This part will be familiar to any narcissist: Fake it ’til you make it. So much of our behaviors is learned. Just look at how much more narcissistic I’ve become since being entangled with my narcissist. People adjust to their environment. We humans are well-designed to adapt.

        Like FYC said, you are loved here HG.
        L-O-V-E-D. (And I’m taking in a sisterly way that has nothing to do with your Star Wars collection. You know how we mean that. I know you know.)

        Whew! By the way, nice to meet you, FYC!😊 I wish I had stumbled upon you sooner. Just curious, are the initials personal or For your consideration/convenience? I completely respect if you rather not say.
        (And HG, don’t worry about false hope; at this point, most of us can’t stand our narcissists anyway.)

      7. A383, I acknowledge your viewpoint and definitely agree with much of what you wrote. NPD is a serious and complex condition, and I accept that I will never fully understand it. No matter how much I study, it will never fully make sense to me. There’s no need for me to carry on about such since FYC did a very nice, and I feel, accurate job in explaining.

        I certainly don’t see my narcissist ever changing. First, he is not yet aware enough to even try to modify behaivors and he is very set in his ways. While anything is possible, that is definitely not probable.

        And to be honest, the odds aren’t in HG’s favor either. But we wouldn’t be having this conversation if he weren’t already acutely aware, thoroughly educated and most importantly willing. Sure, we don’t personally know HG, so our ability to ascertain his willingness is a guess. And it’s easy to see that what enthusiasm he does have is clouded by his own Golden Period with the lovely Shieldmaiden.

        But I do sense a sincerity in HG. I might be off, but I “feel” (just had to throw that in there 😉) that this man, our host, has made strides in his awareness unlike any other. Sure, he still throws out jokes and comments that indicate he is not ready to peel back the layers. And it appears that he is going to approach this relationship more from an angle of self-modification regarding the behaviors he need to showcase…. well, an extended Golden Period, if you will. So only time will tell. We understand the rarity of this. Hell, most relationships between healthy normals don’t last. Perhaps all that I am really trying to say is… more is possible if we’ll only do our best to allow it.

      8. Hello BKK, Thank you for your personal insights I enjoyed your egg example and smiled because this type of flip flop is constant in the pursuit of “science” (there is a reason medicine is called a practice). It is very difficult if not impossible to find absolutes in anything.

        There are countless variables within and without an object of study. There, too, are research biases that seem rampant. Not to mention, ego driven “research” that asserts a conclusive “result” and poses it at fact (narcissistic approach—“I believe this, therefore I will create a study that supports my opinion and conclude it as fact).

        There is much scholarly research that approaches behavioral change. Yes, it is possible. But, as you outline so well, it must be the desire of the subject to achieve said change. To expand, they must be self aware (high self monitor helps); possess an internal locus of control; be willing to face difficult fears that feel emotionally devastating; be equipped or assisted in addressing their original injury and defenses and resultant coping mechanisms; and they must be open and willing to accept and internalize a new perspective and pursue any change ongoing (first to create new neural pathways and ongoing to reinforce old coping mechanisms are not necessary.

        Your anxiety/OCD example is a good one. Another is substance abuse. It is intellectually understood that such abuse is detrimental, but emotionally, when stress arises (or any other trigger) addicts often return to there coping mechanism
        . I think HG does an excellent job in describing this type of faulty emotional experience when he discusses the emotional sea (part one). (e.g. We love a narcissist; the narcissist behaves as a narcissist; we are disengaged—but instead of relying on logic of what happened (thank to HG’s writings) we instead hold on to false hope that the Golden Period was real love and as such hope it will return. Never mind the fact that if we had known all facts before we let ourselves love, a precious few of us would have selected the narcissistc behaviors from the relationship menu! We would choose a different place to dine that offers a menu of good food with wholesome ingredients.

        Yes, FYC is for your consideration. I use others as well to maintain anonymity.

        Thank you again for inviting further discussion. I believe it is very important to support others’ healthy endeavors and refrain from absolute judgements. That said, I do not suggest anyone hold on to misguided, false hope. I feel for A383’s pain and resignation. But, life is not black and white. Change does happen. I have seen it. If we remain undaunted, it is amazing what can be achieved.