Hiding From Yourself

HIDING FROM YOURSELF

Another session with Dr E. As I sat down in his consulting room I wondered how much had been spent so far with regards to this supposed treatment. A few thousand pounds no doubt and I imagined that both Dr E and Dr O would be more than content to continue these consultations given their lucrative nature. The cynic in my nature pondered that the financial rewards were such that they would string out this course of treatment for as long as they could. That did not concern me. I was not paying and I usually enjoyed my sparring with the good doctors. It entertained me. However as I ruminated on whether the lure of filthy lucre was what motivated Dr E and Dr O, I realised that they at least gave the impression of wanting to help me. I know from the many sessions it was as much about me gaining awareness and insight in order to make informed decisions about what I wanted, rather than a prescriptive approach from these head doctors but I realised that they actually did care. They wanted to help me. This of course was the main reason why I was content to keep turning up and being subjected to their questions ; these two examiners of HG exhibited empathic traits and thus they proved attractive to me. My tolerance for their repeated probing of areas of my life that I preferred to keep shuttered and closed arose because they provided me with the attention that is so vital to my existence. I also knew that there was an admiration there for me as well. It was evident in the way the pair looked at me, especially Dr O. I knew, as academics, they admired the way I was so candid about the way I behaved. I could see how they admired the way I had been created. I knew they did not like it, how does one like something like me given the abuse I dole out as freely as a farmer broadcasting seed, but they had that deep-seated admiration for this efficient machine that had been stripped of all unnecessary emotions and super-charged with certain traits in order to function at maximum effectiveness. Accordingly, even the doctors were providing me with the thing I needed and our relationship might continue ad infinitum. They continued to be fascinated by me and they desired to help me. I, in turn, was content to engage in this relationship as it provided something that I required. The arrangement was a mutually satisfying one, even when the doctors strayed into territories that were best left alone.

“Hello HG how are you?” asked Dr E. I hesitated. He did not normally enquire as to my state of being. Others would trot out such a question rarely interested in the answer but merely performing a social nicety. Dr E did not ask such a question and for him to  now do so put me on guard.

“I am excellent well, thank you for your kind enquiry,” I replied with a smile. I did not enquire after his well-being, I was not interested nor did I have to feign such interest.

“Good. Now, straight down to business, who are you?”

“H G Tudor.”

“Indeed you are. Anything else?”

I paused. I see Dr E we were going deep today were we? Very well, let’s flush out where you want to go.

“The question of who I am is something that depends on the context,” I began. Dr E commenced his note-taking.

“How does one define oneself is what I suspect you are really driving at.” I looked to Dr E for a sign of affirmation but there was none.

“Do I have an idea of who I am? How is that arrived at? Do I know who I am or do I look to others to define me? Am I an independent identity that has been shaped by my own decisions or am I a product of others and their experiences? Am I aware of who I am or have I yet to discover all that I am?”

“All interesting questions but let me return to my initial question,” interrupted Dr E, “who are you?”

“Who am I? I am many things to many people. Friend, lover, boss or confidant are labels which are applicable to me. Conqueror, seducer, victim and defiler are others which are equally applicable. Charismatic, urbane, intelligent, interesting, stimulating, successful and alluring are also traits that come together to create who I am.”

“I see. Would you say therefore that you are confident that you know who you are?”

“Yes.”

“Do you think that if I asked this question of your family and friends, your colleagues or even my secretary that they would give similar answers to those you have provided me with?”

I snorted.

“Liars lurk within the ranks of those you have described and they have nothing but ill-will towards me. Their perfidy is so great I can smell its stench as I sit here. By all means ask but you will be given nothing but a litany of lies. Insults and assaults on my good nature.”

“So all of them would insult you?”

“No, not all, there are those who know me for what I am.”

“Might it be said that they all know you for who you are?” pressed Dr E.

“No. There are those who have an agenda to topple me and it is they that think they know me but they have constructed an idea of what I am and it is a false one that is used to serve their nefarious purposes. Others recognise my greatness and they are content to embrace it.”

“But could it not be the case that these categories of people just happen to know different elements of you. Your admirers know the H G that is generous, interesting and charming. Those who you regard as detractors perhaps know a different part of you, the defiler and conqueror that you made reference to, this causing them to regard you in a less positive light?” asked Dr E.

“No. The defiler and conqueror are artifices created by those who seek to harm me. Let them do so and I will be that which they think I am. It is no more than they deserve. They create such a monstrosity through their perfidy and unwarranted attacks, so let them know the beast, let them feel its hot and fetid breath in their faces, the rake of its claws against their yielding skin and the full horror of its power on their being. They create it, let them endure it,” I spat, the mere consideration of those who would do me wrong causing my fury to ignite.

“Could you not possess all of those attributes? Could it not be the case you have them all and people see some over others?”

“No,” I said firmly. Dr E nodded and fell silent.

“What would you think if I said that I think you are hiding from yourself?”

I switched my gaze from Dr E and focussed on a picture on the wall. Not this, don’t start this again. Don’t let him gain a foothold H G. Repel the boarder, eject the intruder, cast him out.

“I do not hide.”

“But might you not realise that you are doing so?”

“No.”

“Could it be that you do not know who you are?”

“No.”

“Could it be that you do know but would prefer not to contemplate it?”

“No.”

“Is this line of discussion making you uncomfortable?”

“No.”

I shifted my gaze back to Dr E. Go on, keep trying to batter through my defences, you will not succeed. I know your game Dr E. I know what you are trying to suggest but I am not going there.

“Very well. Let us go back to how you regard yourself then, elaborate on that,” he invited.

The sense of relief washed over me but I gave no outward sign of its effect. I smiled, elated to have rejected this probing once again and excited by the prospect of talking about my favourite subject in greater detail; me.

 

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148 thoughts on “Hiding From Yourself”

  1. When I first read this post when published as Impregnable, I took issue with Dr. E’s approach. This time I take issue with his level of understanding.

    Are we the summation of self and other perceptions? No, we are not. Our perspective of self and other are distorted by the sum of our experiences and our level of awareness. We are never aware of our whole, nor is another. (Again, the Johari window model helps confirm this concept). We may evolve in our awareness and understanding, but we cannot examine that which we do not know that we do not know (the fourth quadrant). Further, we all hide (suspend awareness) from ourselves to some degree to enhance our effectiveness or to protect self.

    HG, it seems to me you are keenly aware of the positive and negative traits and behaviors of others. You then paint others black or white based upon how each is currently serving your needs. It’s not that you do not see or understand, it is that you believe there is no useful purpose to choosing a gray position as it would not serve your needs.
    Is this a correct analysis?

    As for hiding from yourself (denial), we all practice this coping mechanism, empath and narcissist alike. Yet, for the narcissistic, it seems it is perceived that a constant state of defense must be maintained for survival.
    Is this correct?

    Thanks in advance.

    1. YOu are correct FYC. I straddle two worlds but my response is governed by

      1. What I need;
      2. The absence of factors such as guilt, remorse, conscience ; and
      3. The fact that there are still elements to my behaviour which are instinctive and I am blind to.

      1. I appreciate your detailed reply, HG. I had not considered the influence of your second point. Thank you.

  2. A383,

    I enjoyed your comment; very thought provoking.

    “As for love….. you admit that it is impossible for you to feel love, so what’s the point in even trying at this stage in your life. What’s in it for you really.”

    When I read this though, aside from the conclusion that a narc is in a relationship for his own needs – is that any different than anyone else?

    I can’t help thinking it must be lonely at the top.

  3. HG, I’ve been watching a therapy program where celebs are in therapy, one of them the guitarist from the sex pistols, he’s a very good example at the age of 61 of what you write in the fading narcissist. He’s completely open about his life and is looking for answers but does not know he’s a narcissist. The therapist at no time mentions narcissism and appears to be unaware but maybe that is just a word he would not put onto a client ? I’ve watched a few of these celeb therapy programs with different therapists and quite a few but not all clients are narcissists but it’s not ever mentioned . Would you say therapists avoid labelling clients narcissists as it may in some way sound bad or critical of the client , like saying your a bad person or something like that , some therapists do discuss inner child but not many , the closet to it was one therapist saying arrested development . This particular celeb is now struggling at 61 to continue to fill the void (his words), he’s obviously a somatic narcissist but has been diagnosed as a sex addict 🙄 Every thing he says is basically a narsissist, can’t sustain relationships , alcohol problem and Jekyll and Hyde personality it goes on and on. Right down to the girl at age 18 that got away that he loved but it was never consummated !!!!!!!!!
    Prefers sex with strangers feels nothing for women in relationships it’s just sex but bores of that and needs variety. Also some Madonna Whore thing going on.
    My point is if myself and other readers of your work can learn to spot them with no formal training just reading, how can the mental health profession not have access to this type of disorder information during their studies before they qualify ?? I don’t understand that , the information is out there and in that profession they should be looking for it and learning it ? How do they qualify without knowing this stuff ?

    1. Some do not have access to it, some focus on other areas and do not have enough exposure to the information to create expertise, some arrogantly dismiss it thinking they know better.

    2. Hi

      I would just caution against diagnosing people narcs.
      Unless you have one on one experience with that person I would doubt we can diagnose so easily .HG prob can but for the rest of us I’d use caution here.Everyone has narc tendencies but may not be a narcissist.
      We are not qualified to judge people from TV programmes.
      Just my opinion.

      1. Kiki
        I agree. I see people who I think are confusing narcissistic traits in someone as being a narcissist quite often. Someone can come across to others as unemotional, opinionated, rude, selfish, arrogant……the list goes on, but that doesn’t mean they don’t still possess empathy, or that their intention is to cause harm. Haha, I should know. I mean it is just as easy to label someone as overly insensitve, soft, or weak, but that does not make it true and does not seem to be thrown around as much.

        HG’s article Narcissistic or Narcissist is an excellent listen to help sort this.

        1. Thanks Narc Angel

          I do see a lot of he/she is a narc thrown around.
          For me personally and this is just my opinion,I could be incorrect here , we never know the narc lurking underneath until it’s too late and they have fully ensnared us .
          It is very very difficult to spot as true narcs keep it well hidden until we are emotionally invested.
          They are stealth movers.

          Kiki

  4. Thanks NarcAngel and Foolme1time for your lovely comments. They were very helpful and so very truthful.
    Luckily my ex lives on another continent so I have limited access to him. It’s my children whom I worry about.

    And thanks HG – your insight has helped me immeasurably.

  5. K and Mercy, I remember the first time I commented on this blog I was the one saying “ Don’t you all see what he is!” and so on and so on. It took a very long time for me to believe him even with the five rules in place. But then all of a sudden something clicks and all that he says is truth. He gives the answers that we are all searching for. He gives us the knowledge that leads to the protection that it will never happen again. If that is not enough he then gives you the courage to go on and not take your own life which is the only possible way you can find to stop it from happening over and over again! All the while I believe he is helping me learn about narcissist and then discover he is also helping me learn about myself. Ok! That’s enough of of that ET! NA hows the 🦜?🙃

    1. FM1T
      The parrot is good. Busy learning new phrases that save me time. The current phrase it utters is “I smell bullshit”, so now when I detect it I can just point to the bird.

    2. FM1T, oddly I’ve never been angry at HG. When I first found this site I saw it for what it was. It became the place I went to when things were bad in my relationship. HG provides the answers we need but we have to make the decision to change our lives. It doesn’t just happen by reading. I think the “click” you talk about is accepting responsibility.

    3. foolme1time
      I called him a lowly smack dealer and a trafficker of human souls. Then time passes and something does click and we start to understand the narcissistic perspective and we even learn to understand ourselves better, too. The experience is surreal.

      1. Hahaha K, I can’t imagine that. I’m sure he replied with something infuriating like “from your perspective”

      2. K
        Haha. You were a fucking riot when you arrived here (you still are). There was something about your anger that was different. I thought: this chick is letting it out but can harness it in a healthy way (toward both HG and others). Inquisitive, explains her position, and is not afraid of her dark side.

          1. K

            Haha I love this!! Through your rage you stop and analyze yourself. “I think I’m going through the anger stage of grief”

          2. Mercy
            Ha ha ha…thanks, I needed a good laugh this morning! I think I was trying to take a step back and be objective. I was so fucking mad that I wanted to lop off heads but now I can just look back and laugh at it. My motto is: when you feel an emotion, just express it. Let it all out. Ha ha ha…hold nothing back.

  6. I hope you all burn in in hell. You steal and corrupt everything you touch. The infection runs so deep, the feeling of not being worthy or loved. You made me feel panicked and provoked.

    I fucking hate you!!!

    I sit here with tears running down from all you did, all you forced me to endure, all you force me to hold within, fuck you all to hell and back.

    All I want is to rip you limb from limb…..I hate you! I fucking hate you!

    I want the pain to stop, why won’t it stop…..

    1. DFA,
      If it helps, keep writing out your feelings here. This is a safe place and everyone is incredibly supportive. I don’t know your personal story but we have all experienced what you are feeling right now on some level. It will take time but you will heal from this by learning, asking questions, reading the articles, consulting with HG and interacting with all of us. I’m sure that trusting others is something that you are struggling with a lot, at this time, rightfully so, but at least trust yourself that you found your way here which just shows how strong and resourceful you already are.
      And take a little time everyday to do something loving just for you because YOU ARE WORTH IT💜

    2. Dearest DFA,
      I’m devastated you are hurting so much right now
      The majority of us here have all probably uttered your exact same words and felt the same excruciating pain

      Please let us in and help you
      Trust me ….. you are loving and worthy
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. Hello Bubbles

        DFA was/is the name I go by when I am deeply troubled. DFA was my original “name” before my ex figured out who I was here and subtle threaten me by hacking into my account and posting under my name, it was a poem I had written when I was a teenager and added to the end. I took things to HG when I saw it. HG believed me at a time I didn’t believe anyone else would here.

        I no longer worry about my ex coming for me…..he holds no power over me. If i chose to speak I shall do so.

        The day I made that comment I was dealing with an issue that deals with my husbands family. I hold an incredible amount of anger towards them for the things they have done and those close to me that have been affected.

        1. Dearest Twilight,
          Thank you lovely ..your comment is very much appreciated …. I didn’t realise that was you
          Sometimes you just need some support to get back on track
          Sadly, anger goes with the narc territory ..but in the long run, they don’t warrant that satisfaction
          Never forget Twilight, you’re worth more than all of them put together
          Hugs to you beautiful
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  7. Are the details of the GD being revealed to us relatively shortly after they occur or are you talking to us about a distant past event?

    I assume that being a GEN means you have thought of everything in terms of secrecy, privacy and carnage that occurs through online hackers?

  8. HG,

    I’ll be honest with you, I can’t see why you would want to change. Not now.

    You appear to have a fabulous life: great job, money and you’re a highly intelligent man with an amazing gift for writing.

    You’ve always, and probably always will be able to attract women, even as you age.

    You’re more than capable of hoodwinking the good doctors into signing you off so to speak as ‘much improved’ at the very least, and your mother will be dead soon enough and then you will be head of the family.

    Also, aren’t you worried you’ll lose your ‘mojo’ just a touch with all this pro social approach – what attracts most people to narcissists you may lose because you’re so busy slowing your thinking down you won’t know if you’re coming or going.

    Also, narcissism is on the rise. You’re the poster boy.
    How will it play out to a larger, uneducated audience if you are, for example, married and settled but have to keep constantly telling people (especially people only discovering NPD) … ‘now remember, I’m a Greater, my dynamic with SM is unique.’
    All of us here understand it cause we’ve been here for years (!!) but a wider audience simply won’t understand or accept it….. ‘my narc is unique too, he can change, just like that HG Tudor guy.’

    As for love….. you admit that it is impossible for you to feel love, so what’s the point in even trying at this stage in your life. What’s in it for you really.
    Plus, what is love anyway. Everyone is different.
    You don’t suffer the heartbreak that most have here. You’re lucky in that respect, I believe.
    As for the void, it’s not only narcissists that have them, codependents do too and for many, only a narcissist will do. That’s the truth!

    Finally, I can’t see how any person with the traits you require would be able to accept a life with you long term. You may be able to modify your behaviour for SM somewhat (especially during the GP) but surely eventually the narcissism will seep through and she’ll see it in the treatment of others round about you… her family etc. She may be able to put up with it… but maybe not.

    It’s a tough one for you HG.

    Best wishes as always. x

    1. Hello A383,

      1. I am not concerned about losing my mojo. I understand your point and it is a fair question, but I am a man of considerable talent, the garnish of pro sociability notwithstanding, and therefore I have no concerns in that regard.
      2. The caveat with regard to my dynamic with the SM is a valid one. On the one hand people want to know about me, my progress and my interactions with others but then there is the risk you identify and therefore one considers whether this new relationship should continue to be mentioned. That stated, I do know that my dynamic is only a very small percentage of Reasons Why The Victim Thinks They Should Keep Going With The Narcissist – nobody has ever mentioned it for example in consultation with me, it is the other reasons which are well rehearsed and you are familiar with, which are raised far more often (those being manifestations of ET) and it is those which I tackle also.

      1. Thanks for replying.

        I wonder if I may ask, if it’s not too personal a question HG, but would you, given the chance, trade your seemingly perfect adult life for a mother who loved, nurtured and protected you as a child?

        x

      2. The only reason for change that would directly serve HG (as there are many reasons that could serve others) is this:

        As an Ultra Elite, HG has the rare opportunity to retain every arrow in his quiver, while no longer feeling compelled to chase a target.

        In theory, if it were possible to heal the original narcissistic wound, the void created by the false self would greatly diminish. HG would be driven by free choice instead of need for fuel, affording him many more options (while not excluding current options). Further, it would conserve personal energy, as it takes a great deal more energy to remain highly defended.

        HG’s excellent intelligence, vast knowledge and experience, his skill sets, appearance, wit and humor, wealth, etc., would remain unaffected.

        So if power and control are desired, why not seek change?

        Besides, there’s the added benefit that comes from really knowing your true worth, versus being haunted by the lie that you are not enough.

    2. A383

      I enjoyed your post and the thoughtful questions you presented. I think unknowingly you were asking for many. I do not understand the point of the prospect of marriage for him that some people have raised for instance. Not in this day and age and given that he has no religious reason or affiliation and narcs claim they own you anyway. But I suppose it adds to the facade and they do love a party that focuses on them. And if he’s going to do it, he’s not getting any younger. Best he do it while the wedding photos show he still has hair (like Prince William and Matt Lauer did lol).

      ** Ducks at flying debris **

  9. Hello, H.G.Tudor.
    A psychologist asks me who I am? and I wouldn’t be too sure if I knew what to answer.
    After a while thinking this would be my answer…
    I could answer that I am a consciousness within a body, with emotional traits that has acquired a series of experiences throughout its existence. Some positive and some negative. And this acquisition of experiences defines me as what I am. But with free will to choose in the future what I will be, based on the experiences and my feelings. I am an entity, with free will of choice, I can choose what I want to be, what I want to have, what I want to suffer or what I want to leave behind … In short for what I see an excellent fuel supplier, quality AAA+++ and a wonderful being, hahaha.
    “I’m what I learned during this transit.”
    Possibly the question has its complexity at the time of answering, but in my case this is what I am and so I have told you.
    How am I?
    What do I feel?
    How do I see myself in relation to other people ?
    I will leave it for another occasion…
    I really believe that the psychologist’s question would have had to ask more specifically for:
    What was it?
    And HG would have answered: a fuel aspirator, without blinking.

    1. Hello, H.G.Tudor.
      A psychologist asks me who I am? and I wouldn’t be too sure if I knew what to answer.
      After a while thinking this would be my answer…
      I could answer that I am a consciousness within a body, with emotional traits that has acquired a series of experiences throughout its existence. Some positive and some negative. And this acquisition of experiences defines me as what I am. But with free will to choose in the future what I will be, based on the experiences and my feelings. I am an entity, with free will of choice, I can choose what I want to be, what I want to have, what I want to suffer or what I want to leave behind … In short for what I see an excellent fuel supplier, quality AAA+++ and a wonderful being, hahaha.
      “I’m what I learned during this transit.”
      Possibly the question has its complexity at the time of answering, but in my case this is what I am and so I have told you.
      How am I?
      What do I feel?
      How do I see myself in relation to other people ?
      I will leave it for another occasion…
      I really believe that the psychologist’s question would have had to ask more specifically for:
      What are you?
      And HG would have answered: a fuel aspirator, without blinking.

  10. Once again interesting very suspenseful…question hg when the good doctors are asking you questions are they asking in a fuel free fashion or are they asking and providing you fuel?

    1. They provide fuel, it is a proximate engagement therefore whilst their tone may not always provide fuel and sometimes the word used will not provide fuel, there is body language, facial expression, look in the eyes and therefore they will nearly always provide me with fuel (either Pure Fuel or Challenge Fuel)

  11. This breaks my heart reading this, but also makes me so angry. I wish you had the courage to really answer their questions – because it is courage that is needed here. You know exactly what you are and the abuse that you inflict upon others and you have the chance to actually explore that, but refuse. As noted, most narcissists don’t have insight into their behaviour, but you do. I know it’s not so simple from your point of view, but it appears that fear rules your life.

    You are confident to the extreme, yet lack courage.

    I suppose I can’t expect a narcissist to behave any different. The abuse and damage that your ilk inflict on innocent, kind and compassionate souls is just heartbreaking and will affect generations to come.

    Just let the beast out – completely. Just try. You won’t die if you do.

    I see you love bombing the Shieldmaiden – it sickens me. The fact that you don’t care one iota for her and your abuse will damage her for years to come, means absolutely nothing to you. I just wish some of your followers would stop spurring you on as they are part of the problem.

    Yes my anger stems from being married to a man for 20 years – during the divorce the diagnosis finally came and my world fell apart – my innocent children now suffer his manipulation against their mother – my teen is now in therapy because of this damage. Rather just cut yourself off from people and live a life of solitude in order to protect others from your abuse. The monster will have no choice then but to come out of its hole.

    The truth is that I do root for you to somehow improve yourself and then I read this post and it hits home once again, that there is no hope – for you, my ex husband and the millions llike you out there.

    1. I appreciate your honesty in what you have written.

      How do you know I am love bombing the Shield Maiden? Please set out the evidence of me doing so.

      How do you know I will abuse her. I accept that it is a risk based on previous behaviours, but do you also accept that there is potential it may not happen owing to a unique dynamic. I have never stated it will not happen, but that it could happen (i.e. work) and we have to wait and see.

      What you do not understand (and I acknowledge you are not in full possession of the facts) is that my conduct is driven by a higher principle of securing the Grand Design. One of the doctors (and thus the others will be tainted by association) is a Lieutenant of one of the narcissists who abused me. Hence I must play the games with them otherwise they will win and that cannot happen.

      1. The mere fact that you are splashing your pics and constantly mentioning her name on IG, and asking your followers should you ask her to marry you – whether this is said in jest or not – it is an indication that you are in some stage of love bombing. I cannot ever know for certain as you can merely state that I am wrong.

        Yes you may not abuse her, but the fact is you are using her. By sharing her with your followers is not right – this is her privacy – although we don’t know who she is, it’s still wrong. I know if it were me, I would be extremely hurt knowing that hundreds of your followers knew about her, yet she is totally in the dark about who you are and the fact that you have people commenting about her, without her knowledge.

        With regards to you securing The Grand Design – be brave, give up your inheritance and save yourself from the narcissist who abused you and still controls you. That would mean that you have strength and courage and basically telling her/him to fcuk off. BUT you won’t. That is so desperately sad.

        Your fear of losing the game means that you will never be free. You will be tied to your abuser for as long as he/she is alive – that means they are in actual fact winning the game, but you cannot see it. They are still in control.

        1. Very accurate , it takes strength and courage to say F off to someone who has you bound.
          Why don’t you do it HG ? We can help you .
          You need to rid yourself of the narc who made you one.

          1. I think HG has some ET going on! Is he lying to himself?

            Perhaps this blog is his revenge on the Greater Matrinarc. I wish!

        2. Why is it so absurd so give Matrinarc the birdy by creating this blog and in doing so reveal her kind – exposing her at the same time?

          Did I hear you say ET! Lol

          1. Thank you HG. I know you can not go into detail at this time so I will not ask anymore. Apologies if this shows up twice, WordPress is acting up again.

          2. Is Shieldmaiden aware of her participation/assistance in advancing your Grand Design?

            She seems a highly capable person to willingly assist from the limited information you have supplied. Given she is a magnet super empath who loves you, her motivation would be for your good, and the greater good of course.

          3. HG, I do not want to go round and round with you, which is what happened when I entered this territory once before. I simply want to ask a question where I’m hoping you will be able to answer with a simple yes or no. Since SM is now part of your grand design and helping you in advancing it, when the grand design is complete and the world knows of it, will you allow SM to stand next to as your equal and receive the same credit and awards as you yourself does?

          4. HG, Thank you for your reply. I am hoping with your new dynamic and the compatibility you share with Shieldmaiden, that she may one day become aware–if it is in the best interest for you both.

          1. K, The reason I didn’t think it was MatriNarc was the way he commented. As you know are fearless leader at times speaks in riddles! Which leaves us scrambling and asking even more questions. Which I fell right into!

          2. foolme1time
            I love riddles and the process of elimination; it keeps us on our toes.
            It is like the game Clue. Professor Tudor did it in the study with the Gruffalo.

          1. FYC, I know that she does. I think it was the way he worded that comment “one of the narcissists” that’s what caused me to ask that question. I was a bit confused by the way it sounded as if it were more then just Matrinarc.

          2. You’ve probably gotten to study almost every school just in your own family HG. Do you think it was your intelligence that caused you to become a greater? We have not heard you (as of yet) speak of another greater in your family.

          3. I didn’t think it was HG simply by the way you wrote that comment. But of course we won’t find out until the book is finished! Lol

          4. HG, That is surprising! I apologize for my incorrect assumption.

            FM1T, Good point. I assumed Matrinarc without realizing all of the narcissist involved too. My apologies!

      2. Oh dear.. so you are playing along with the manipulations and letting the narc think they are controlling you, while plotting your own thing.. I’d hazard a guess that the narc is paying for these doctors.. and another guess who it is. (but could be wrong) I asked on another post about confidentiality and how come someone knew something.. but won’t go into it. Hope you get your check mate. 🙂

        1. I see from other comments now that I would guess wrong! I thought it was matrinarc:-)

    2. I’ll pretty sure we empaths see the monster? Obviously it’s a different kind of monster than he might endure should it find its way out but that’s because it’s directed toward him, instead of away.

    3. Jeannine,

      I respect you being forthright in your opinion and recognize the level of damage sustained by you and your family as a result of your ex-husband’s behaviour.

      But I have to draw attention to this statement:

      “I suppose I can’t expect a narcissist to behave any different. The abuse and damage that your ilk inflict on innocent, kind and compassionate souls is just heartbreaking and will affect generations to come.”

      HG has already demonstrated here, through his work, that a narcissist can indeed behave differently (if it works in favour of his needs) and the resulting insight will (and does) positively affect the innocent, the kind and the compassionate – for generations to come.

      1. WhoCares – thanks for your comment. HG has said previously that this interaction with others is part of his treatment with the good doctors. Do you think that he would have done this out of the goodness of his heart?

        Please don’t for one moment think I am not grateful to HG for the information that he has provided. I have thanked him on two occasions already. I have tremendous compassion for Narcissists – those created out of neglect and abuse (my ex being one of them) hence my reasons for staying in my marriage for so many years desperately trying to help my husband – three psychologists and two psychiatrists later and still no improvement. I too have compassion for HG – I can only imagine the pain that he lives with each day.

        I still have great compassion for my ex, even though he treats me very badly at times – I do understand why he is the way he is – I have been told that he more than likely is not aware of the damage that he inflicts (I believe him to be a Mid range narc). HG, on the other hand is aware of what he is, so he has an advantage above other narcs.

        Let’s be honest, by the time people learn about HG and his blog, the damage is already done by our own narcissists, hence the reason we find ourselves here. He is able to finally make us understand what has happened to us and gives us clarity on the behaviour of the person who damaged us. BUT the damage is done – it does allow us to not enter into future relationships with Narcissists, so yes that does help us.

        But we still have to remember that no matter how much we respect HG and the information he provides us with, he still abuses. maybe not here, but elsewhere. That is, for me anyway, very difficult to get my head around.

        1. Jeannine

          I understand your conflict as I have some myself. I would add this though about the fact that HG abuses elsewhere:

          He would be doing that anyway and there would be nothing I, you, or anyone else could do about it. I wouldn’t even know about them if he didn’t write about them. I don’t believe there is any amount of words, logic, or emotion that people offer (professional or otherwise) that will affect him. He decides. So what I’m left with is the opportunity to take advantage of the narcissist for once. To use the information he provides that is helpful to me and to spread it for the generations to come. In this way we can give his victims a voice. That is my only concern and I recognize all that I can effect.

          1. NarcAngel – thanks for your comment. I agree with you 100%. That’s the reason why I very seldom comment – I normally read what I need, learn from it and move on.

            I am also to my own detriment a very emotional woman and sometimes a post will hit home and I feel compelled to comment.

            I think the truth is that I still sadly am holding out for my ex to become a better man. From this post I lose faith and see it won’t happen – a man like HG who has insight has no desire to change, therefore there is zero hope for my ex who has little insight into his behaviour.

            Could do with the fact that my ex has arrived in my country to spend time with our children- his presence obviously irks me and I battle to contain my emotions.

            HG knows I hope that I am grateful for his insight.

          2. Jeannine, Myself also being very emotional at times I have had a lot of issues with what HG has done and obviously still does to his victims. However I have learned over time that as NA says we will not change him nor does he want to change. I started looking at in this way, this is my opportunity to get back at all the narcissists in my life, to use HG ( apologies HG) for his knowledge to give me the answers I desperately needed. Which I would of never gotten from any of them. Do I feel bad that he may be hurting someone else? I honestly don’t think about it anymore. For once I’ve made something about me. That’s what this is. A learning tool for me to protect myself and my family from ever being hurt by a narcissist again. It took a lot for me to get to this way of thinking, but to protect what is near and dear to my heart I will do what I have to do when I have to do it! I’m sure with your ex in the area your ET is way off the charts. I’m sure mine would be. Take care dear.

          3. I’ve no issue with being ‘used’ in that way, this is part of the reason for this place to exist.

          4. Jeannine
            I understand. The reminder and realization that there will be no change can bring intense emotional reaction. I think its helpful for you to get it out when you feel compelled to comment. We are all emotional at times but I stil believe its better out than in (here – not with the narcissist). I hope you have zero or as limited contact as possible with your ex during his visit as you are aware already that it is affecting you. Take care of yourself.

        2. Jeanine,

          Thank-you for replying back.
          HG is forthright in saying that he doesn’t do any of this out of the goodness of his heart.
          And I would never label you as ungrateful for expressing your opinions.

          I had compassion for my narcissist as well for a long time; but I had to put a stopper on that because he literally has no choice but to exploit it. I gave every ounce of compassion to him. They cannot stop themselves from taking; the only choice (for me) is to stop giving.

          It sounds as though you’ve been down the road to hell and back with your narcissist. I’m sorry for your pain and the duration of time spent in attempting to help your husband.

          Yes, you are correct by the time we find HG’s work the damage is done. But further damage can be prevented. And the fallout of us stopping the cycle of abuse, in applying what we know here, means that our children (and others exposed to HG’s work when they need it) may not have to suffer as we did – or they have access to insight and the *choice* whether or not to continue engaging their narc.

          I don’t ever forget that people have suffered at the hands of HG – but you know what? That’s partly because he keeps reminding us himself – due diligence on his part.

          But if you think about it (without emotion – and this is the difficult part for many) most of the insightful endeavours and pursuits that we benefit from (including the fields of medicine and psychology; if one educates themselves) have been brought to fruition through the suffering of *someone* (don’t jump down my throat by suggesting that I’m condoning abuse). It is a reality of any longstanding practice, yes, now psychology experiments have to go through an ethics board and such…but the very people who you seek out (psychologists and psychiatrists) in effort to help your husband are using insights that were often procured from the suffering of animals – and people. I’m not going to provide examples because they are out there for anyone to educate themselves on.

          At least HG is not hiding under the guise of being a ‘helping professional’ that has only the ‘best interests of humanity’ at heart. He doesn’t care; but the result is some of us get to live a more humane life as a result.

  12. Could a MMRN or UMRN read your blog and learn more about themselves? I assume a LN would write it off but the MR may actually dabble.

    If logical thinking is what the Ns do, and your articles are well written, factual and logical, surely they could easily marry your terminology against their behaviour?

    What do you mean by MRN like to piggy back off a greater?

    1. Noob,

      Personality disorders are egosyntonic, meaning that the person with a personality disorder doesn’t know he has one. They experience their own behavior as consistent with who they are.

      By contrast, someone with an egodystonic disorder will know something is wrong without having to be told. For example, people with obsessive compulsive disorder experience their obsession, be it hand washing excessively, checking that the lights are turned off excessively, whatever, as inconsistent with who they are. Depression and anxiety, assuming they are not better explained as part of a personality disorder, are also egodystonic.

        1. No problem! I’ve responded to our conversations on other forums but HG is policing my comments.

          I’m not trying to take you down, HG. I challenge your ideas because it helps me understand them more thoroughly. I challenge everything written by anyone in my field. I’m a fan of yours, albeit a reluctant one

          1. Read the Rules – yours are not the only comments in moderation. All comments are policed, not just yours, that’s the nature of moderation.
            Any delay in posting is for the reasons explained in the rules and nothing to do with apparently being challenged.

          2. Got it. Thank you for your responses HG and answering my questions.

            I’m going to block myself from viewing this site on my iPhone because I can’t stop looking and it’s upsetting. I don’t like leaving convos up in the air and I’ve enjoyed the conversation but this blog is not good for me.

            It is triggering as hell and is giving me nightmares and insomnia. Sincerely happy for the many people who find help here

          3. WR, I saw a lot of what you said and enjoyed our interaction. I’m sorry if you leave. More sorry about the nightmares and you feeling out of place but be assured that you aren’t the only one.

            Getting my head about the fact some have run from one N to another (mr included) reading abusive material that has somewhat a gleeful energy and getting the low-down that the N always wins is a heavy pill to swallow. I wish you all the best.

      1. Wendy. I have observed that what is considered a disorder in one century is praised in another, in one country versus another, in one class versus another, in one field versus another. Many of these psychiatric /psychological definitions of disorders have failed. Many people have to suppress what is natural and not wrong in order to fit into a given society’s rules in order to be deemed orderly. While many rules in society are actually psychotic and abnormal, those that violate them, or do not agree with them, are considered psychotic and criminalistic, and antisocial and even jailed, like in China (one child policy), in the United States (past prohibition against alcohol), In Western Society (one wife at a time, never together), the assault on Perfectionism while praising mediocrity, radical Feminism, Athletic energy versus stillness in children (psychotic ritalin drug solutions prescribed for the energetic child). etc. etc. A lot of madness is carried out by leaders in society upon the people. Those that try to fit in, but can not, or will not, to what is called behaviorally normal, at any given time and era, can be considered to have a disorder and to be in need of rehabilitation/re-education therapy or treatments. I agree wholeheartedly that disorders exist, like Charles Manson and his fairy tale believing playmates, very disorderly, for example, and there are many other examples, but it is a minefield to navigate a lot of what is called a disorder, at any given time, and from many conflicting initial hypotheses of what is and what is not normal.

        1. I hear you. Definitions of health and disorder definitely change radically with the times.

          Freud said that health is the ability to work and to love, which, while not comprehensive, I find to be a pretty good indicator of presence of a disorder

  13. I am so sorry. Reading this was heartbreaking. Every question your doctor asked I could freely answer. But you cannot. You twist and turn and wriggle free of every question. You do not state who or what you are the way you do on here. Why?

    1. Wounded. Even people considered normal do not like many of the questions that these people ask. Many of these doctors are voyeurs, as well. Mental voyeurs. It is a field that wants to be considered a science, but the Doctors themselves have difficulty getting out of their own way, since they are part of the laboratory with their own world view and prejudices and needs and goals, and unfortunately they can not sterilize themselves and move themselves out of the laboratory by putting themselves in a clean room. The mind is vast. It contains worlds, and unexplored regions. Who can know it? So, we just go along and do what we can, when we are in circumstances that put us in the psyche world and its practitioners. Also, many of their theories are out of date, and they know it. Also, talk therapy is not a solution for everyone nor for everything, and they know it. Psyche drugs and talk therapy have failed many, and they know it. Also, anything you say can and will be used against you. Remember that. Doctor Patient Confidentiality is a myth perpetuated by TV serials. But, it is what it is, in that profession. Buyer Beware (even if someone else has paid).

  14. I am happy to stand alone, but I think it unwise to enable exploration and the possible acceptance of the ‘who’ you really are during therapy with a narcissistic psychopath.

    The most dangerous liaisons occur when a dark reality is brought to life for the first time, be it murder, rape, infidelity, corruption etc. If a behaviour is known and accepted by oneself, it can be knowingly repeated, only this time it is conscious and therefore more powerful and targeted.

    The chilling thing about the Greater narcissist is that they are self aware. In normal terms, we consider self awareness a great thing. I am sure it is a wonderful tool for the narcissist themselves, but it yields significant consequences for the rest of us. Self awareness when it comes to malignant behaviour is dangerous. Lacking self awareness is also dangerous. A narcissist’s motivation to maintain the fascade perhaps poses immediate danger to the individual engaged with them in the formal relationship, however it is a safety gate for society at large.

    I have noted HG advocates for GOSO rather than lead your narcissistic psychopath to therapy. If I were the ‘Good Doctors’ common sense in the sheer boldness and lack of emotionality of HG’s confessions would make me think twice (possibly even thrice) about intervention.

    “Muddy waters are best cleared by leaving them alone” – Alan Walls.

      1. Thanks HG.
        My premise is you can’t change someone who doesn’t see an issue in their actions.

        1. True.

          I can see how my actions have an issue for others, but that is not an issue for me. Hence, why change?

          1. Exactly – the narcissistic perspective and the very reason we need to educate our emotions here.

    1. Sarah
      You do not stand alone. I have often thought when people encourage HG (in particular because he is discussed here, but really any Greater narcissist) to investigate the creature, that it may not have the effect they expect or desire. That it may be a case of him actually knowing best why he keeps it buried. That we may prefer him to keep it that way if only we knew it like he does.

      1. NA, I have thought of it in many different ways over the years. One of those ways is that HG through treatment that his Mother has demanded is just another way for him to improve on what he has already become. So by her forcing this on him she is actually creating a more dangerous version of himself! Especially because of his awareness and intelligence.

      2. Sarah and NarcAngel, Thank you for your insightful comments. Your views are supported by research as well. An empathetic approach has been documented as having the best results in narcissists for affecting behavior in a prosicial direction. No one can change another person full stop. We can only change ourselves. HG has noted his ongoing efforts toward a new dynamic—highly commendable.

        1. FYC He keeps writing about this change in his dynamic. Do you think it is possible that he has figured out by changing his reaction to certain situations that it benefits him? Not that he is going to change, only that he will change his behavior which has brought negative attention to him in the past? Which could actually make him even more dangerous?

          1. Hi FM1T, I don’t know. Perhaps.

            My feeling is he is newly inspired. Possibly by Shieldmaiden and his Grand Design. Or possibly because he wants less visible blow back while pursuing his interests and prime aims. It seems he values efficiency.

          2. FYC I don’t know either. You just seemed to have a better grasp of where this was all leading then I do. Thank you for replying. 🤗

          3. FM1T, You are very kind, but I do not. Only HG knows his own goals and desires. I have observed comments by HG to others that made me believe he is truly sincere for his own reasons. It seems like he wants to achieve something greater. At present, I feel HG is inspired and will pursue his new dynamic. I believe Shieldmaiden is a part of that inspiration or at least a furtherance of it. I only hope he does not become discouraged or frustrated sufficiently to abandon the new dynamic. We all endeavor change from a reward basis (even if the reward is pain avoidance). I wish HG, and all of the narcissists I know, could truly know their full value so that it would be unnecessary to seek fuel from others as a distraction from what they fear. The fear is a lie and begets more pain (even if the false self believes otherwise).

            FM1T, I was distracted in other areas and was delayed in responding unintentionally. I appreciate and enjoy your comments.

          4. FYC It’s ok! I always get distracted one way or another. I also wish they would see there full value. But we know that is something they can not do. At this time and forever, the only narcissist I wish good things for is HG! He definitely does not know how truly special he is! 🥰

          5. Hi FM1T, I think HG may intellectually know how amazing he is in very many ways. After reading about gene expression, I’m more convinced that if loved and nurtured to know their inherent value, a child is far less likely to become a narcissist/psychopath. A puppy becomes a guard dog due to highly activated and trained defenses.

        2. Thanks for your comments FYC.

          It took me some time to work out we cannot change another person. Once we do, we will put our energy into more fruitful life experiences and pursuits. It is a skill to invest and direct your energies and time where they can be best used. Watering dead plants is futile.

          1. Hi Sarah. I only learned this valuable lesson after making a sincere effort to positively change a familial victim narcissist many years ago. Needless to say it failed completely. Changing yourself is doable, but not always easy, yet so worthwhile.

    2. Sarah, that is interesting: ‘better let them maintain the facade’ for the sake of safeness of society. It is quite an assumption. I can see there is benefit in ignoring them on a personal level in case of an entanglement (GOSO it is). But as a psychiatrist? Why not be damned interested? AND damned cautious? If anyone has been trained at doing this, it’s them.

      On the other hand, did you consider the opposite viewpoint: an intact facade will make it possible for them to keep destroying people behind closed doors? Without questioning since we are afraid of their malice?

      What’s worse?

      I don’t have an instant answer either. I think it is essential to reduce fear instead of raising it. What if the creature is only a narrative? If nobody wants to examine it (even HG doesn’t) then it has a very high potential of coming across far more dangerous than it actually is. We may take it for the devil itself, while the devil him/herself is actually ruining lives in another compartment.

      “Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.” (CG Jung)

      1. Edit:
        ‘them’ in 1st paragraph = psychiatrists

        ‘ them’ in 2nd paragraph = narcissists/psychopaths

        (srry for the confusion)

        1. Hi Shesaw,
          Thanks for leading us to some interesting debate and discussion.
          I recognise my view may seem radical to some. I apologise if it creates unease or unrest.
          A little bit of background about me may assist with an understanding of my viewpoint. My formal education is in law and psychology and I work in the government sector, so I have a particular focus on the impact of decision making on the public interest.
          I concur with your level of concern for individuals impacted by narcissistic or psychopathic behaviour under the veil of the fascade. Yes, I was one of these victims and the impact on my health and well-being was significant. The fascade kept me in a situation I shouldn’t have been in for far too long.
          The narcissistic fascade disguises abusive behaviour. However the concept of a fascade is not unique to a narcissist, it can be helpful to many of us. Empaths may also rely on a fascade to feed their addiction to a narcissist e.g., underneath he is a kind, caring person, he is ‘the one’ etc. Empaths may need this fascade because the reality of accepting a person is incapable of loving them is too painful to fathom. What would it mean for them, if a narcissist cannot feel genuine love for them, are they unlovable?
          Any fascade serves a functional purpose. A narcissist’s fascade helps them to perpetuate abuse against others, this is a sad truth.
          However, when I imagine a world where Narcissists and psychopaths do not attempt to maintain the fascade, I fear for everyone’s safety. The mid-ranger believes he is a good person, this belief leads him to minimise the level of destruction he causes by having a faux sense of consideration for others. The Greater is dangerous because he knows and accepts what he is and he is exceptional at what he does and yields great rewards from this. It is naive to think that therapy can change his level of toxic thinking, behaviour or the impact of this on society.
          At times, harm minimisation is our only option as difficult to accept as this can be. Harm minimisation is the Greater being aware (through consequential thinking) that by modifying their behaviour they will comply with rules, laws and societal expectations. A Greater does not need to go to therapy to realise this, they are an intelligent beast.
          The majority of psychopaths in treatment are those in prison. So, we give them a label and an understanding of what they are so they can draw parallels between themselves and more noteworthy or well known criminals. There is the danger that this label makes them feel more powerful as they understand why people have been so forgiving of their indiscretions in the past and continue to let the psychopath abuse them.
          If we avoid, ignore and shelve toxic people their behaviours become ineffective and so do they. I don’t want to give these behaviours any more attention. We cannot cure them and research tells us we can definitely make them worse. Strong rules, strong boundaries, careful parenting and early identification of problems and concerns are important to our safety. I would argue when considering the broader public interest, so is the fascade.

          1. Hi Sara, thanks for your reply. Sorry to respond in delay.

            I don’t know much about law and psychology in public organisations, its interesting to read that your background is in that field.

            Your distinction between private and public confused me. I found myself thinking in circles when I was trying to respond. I think that is because narcissism generally is about the confusion between private and public. Public politeness and courtesy hides private abuse/unnoticed malice. I can’t advocate for the façade for that reason. The façade IS the problem.

            Your reply raised a few questions, if you would mind to enlighten me 🙂 :
            – What kind of narcissists (mostly) end up in jail?
            – What does therapy for narcissists look like (generally speaking)? What’s the main goal?
            – Does law give up on narcissists (or maybe only on greaters) because ‘we don’t know what to do’? (I’m asking you this because your reasoning leads to GOSO as the only solution, since you state that therapy will not work and ‘society’ is best served by the narcissistic façade).

            I would love to read your answers, but feel no obligation. I ask all kinds of questions without having or getting answers. It helps to keep an open mind and to never stop studying 🙂 Thanks!

          2. Sarah and Shesaw,
            This is a very interesting and thought-provoking conversation. Thank you both for sharing your views. I can see the merits of both sides.

            Perhaps it is safer to let sleeping dogs lie, and to thereby minimise the potential harm of psychopathic behaviour. Who knows what will happen if we unleash the ‘creature’ and enable it to have greater powers?

            The problem is though, that in general, most non-narcissistic people will not “avoid, ignore and shelve toxic people” if they don’t know or are not aware of the underlying reasons and dangers of narcissistic behaviours. So, knowledge is necessary to be able to “get out, stay out” and to become immune.

            Once the knowledge is ‘out there’, who is going to draw the line in the sand and say, “you can’t go further than this”?. Once the knowledge starts spreading, it’s very hard to stop it. People ask questions and want to delve further and further into the subject in order to know more.

            Overall, I agree with Shesaw. I think knowledge is essential to reduce fear and to increase logical thinking. I don’t see narcissists or psychopaths as ‘evil’ or ‘demonic’, however, there are many people who do. It is very difficult to educate people to think logically when they are convinced of such unrealistic beliefs.

            Knowledge and ‘scientific’ study is necessary to open people’s eyes and reduce their ignorance and their ‘other-worldly’ kind of attitudes and to increase awareness. It is also necessary to reduce “emotional thinking” on a wider scale.

            I agree that ‘facades’ can be necessary and helpful for social interaction and positive behaviours, but not at the expense of knowledge and objective understanding.

            Also, it is not only their “facade” that enables narcissists to harm others. They actively seek power and once they have power, they are capable of being dangerous, even when people can see through their facade. In powerful positions, they are able to get their way regardless of the effectiveness of their facade. For instance, the CEO of a company, the parents of a child, the president of a country, the majority attitudes of a society.

            Some of us with awareness can see through these “facades” before their power takes irreversible hold, but it’s the difficulty of making the fraudulently powerful look clearly harmful on a wider scale that gives them greater and ongoing power.

            If it was easier to make such “striving for harmful power” transparent on a wider scale, it would be easier to prevent and overturn.

      2. I don’t have the answer either, Shesaw. I think that we need to take each N, case by case, in order to determine what should be done regarding the facade and the betterment of society.

        I know this isn’t the same but I liken my restlessness to that of the Ns creature. I have learned that in order to tame it (somewhat) I must stare it in the face, feel it. Whilst running from it means a better outcome temporarily, welcoming it has helped longer term. But we are back at the beginning of the circle once again… Ns can’t change!. 😏

  15. Pingback: Hiding From Yourself ⋆ NarcTopia | NarcTopia
  16. Well it turns out then it’s not the doctors stretching out your treatment to make more money. It’s their patient stretching it out by avoiding topics for the day. A long process taking one step forward and one step back. You both are doing a good job of getting there, patiently and understandingly, and respectfully.

    You tell us, your readers, everything, but it’s anonymously. This blog must be good therapy for you too, like it is for us.

  17. “…even when the doctors strayed into territories that were best left alone.” I would like to know more about these territories, the juicy parts.

    “…I will be that which they think I am.” Nice line.

  18. There are so many great intelligent women on this site! We have conflicting opinions, but I love you all!

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