Hiding From Yourself
Another session with Dr E. As I sat down in his consulting room I wondered how much had been spent so far with regards to this supposed treatment. A few thousand pounds no doubt and I imagined that both Dr E and Dr O would be more than content to continue these consultations given their lucrative nature. The cynic in my nature pondered that the financial rewards were such that they would string out this course of treatment for as long as they could. That did not concern me. I was not paying and I usually enjoyed my sparring with the good doctors. It entertained me. However as I ruminated on whether the lure of filthy lucre was what motivated Dr E and Dr O, I realised that they at least gave the impression of wanting to help me. I know from the many sessions it was as much about me gaining awareness and insight in order to make informed decisions about what I wanted, rather than a prescriptive approach from these head doctors but I realised that they actually did care. They wanted to help me. This of course was the main reason why I was content to keep turning up and being subjected to their questions ; these two examiners of HG exhibited empathic traits and thus they proved attractive to me. My tolerance for their repeated probing of areas of my life that I preferred to keep shuttered and closed arose because they provided me with the attention that is so vital to my existence. I also knew that there was an admiration there for me as well. It was evident in the way the pair looked at me, especially Dr O. I knew, as academics, they admired the way I was so candid about the way I behaved. I could see how they admired the way I had been created. I knew they did not like it, how does one like something like me given the abuse I dole out as freely as a farmer broadcasting seed, but they had that deep-seated admiration for this efficient machine that had been stripped of all unnecessary emotions and super-charged with certain traits in order to function at maximum effectiveness. Accordingly, even the doctors were providing me with the thing I needed and our relationship might continue ad infinitum. They continued to be fascinated by me and they desired to help me. I, in turn, was content to engage in this relationship as it provided something that I required. The arrangement was a mutually satisfying one, even when the doctors strayed into territories that were best left alone.
“Hello HG how are you?” asked Dr E. I hesitated. He did not normally enquire as to my state of being. Others would trot out such a question rarely interested in the answer but merely performing a social nicety. Dr E did not ask such a question and for him to now do so put me on guard.
“I am excellent well, thank you for your kind enquiry,” I replied with a smile. I did not enquire after his well-being, I was not interested nor did I have to feign such interest.
“Good. Now, straight down to business, who are you?”
“H G Tudor.”
“Indeed you are. Anything else?”
I paused. I see Dr E we were going deep today were we? Very well, let’s flush out where you want to go.
“The question of who I am is something that depends on the context,” I began. Dr E commenced his note-taking.
“How does one define oneself is what I suspect you are really driving at.” I looked to Dr E for a sign of affirmation but there was none.
“Do I have an idea of who I am? How is that arrived at? Do I know who I am or do I look to others to define me? Am I an independent identity that has been shaped by my own decisions or am I a product of others and their experiences? Am I aware of who I am or have I yet to discover all that I am?”
“All interesting questions but let me return to my initial question,” interrupted Dr E, “who are you?”
“Who am I? I am many things to many people. Friend, lover, boss or confidant are labels which are applicable to me. Conqueror, seducer, victim and defiler are others which are equally applicable. Charismatic, urbane, intelligent, interesting, stimulating, successful and alluring are also traits that come together to create who I am.”
“I see. Would you say therefore that you are confident that you know who you are?”
“Yes.”
“Do you think that if I asked this question of your family and friends, your colleagues or even my secretary that they would give similar answers to those you have provided me with?”
I snorted.
“Liars lurk within the ranks of those you have described and they have nothing but ill-will towards me. Their perfidy is so great I can smell its stench as I sit here. By all means ask but you will be given nothing but a litany of lies. Insults and assaults on my good nature.”
“So all of them would insult you?”
“No, not all, there are those who know me for what I am.”
“Might it be said that they all know you for who you are?” pressed Dr E.
“No. There are those who have an agenda to topple me and it is they that think they know me but they have constructed an idea of what I am and it is a false one that is used to serve their nefarious purposes. Others recognise my greatness and they are content to embrace it.”
“But could it not be the case that these categories of people just happen to know different elements of you. Your admirers know the H G that is generous, interesting and charming. Those who you regard as detractors perhaps know a different part of you, the defiler and conqueror that you made reference to, this causing them to regard you in a less positive light?” asked Dr E.
“No. The defiler and conqueror are artifices created by those who seek to harm me. Let them do so and I will be that which they think I am. It is no more than they deserve. They create such a monstrosity through their perfidy and unwarranted attacks, so let them know the beast, let them feel its hot and fetid breath in their faces, the rake of its claws against their yielding skin and the full horror of its power on their being. They create it, let them endure it,” I spat, the mere consideration of those who would do me wrong causing my fury to ignite.
“Could you not possess all of those attributes? Could it not be the case you have them all and people see some over others?”
“No,” I said firmly. Dr E nodded and fell silent.
“What would you think if I said that I think you are hiding from yourself?”
I switched my gaze from Dr E and focussed on a picture on the wall. Not this, don’t start this again. Don’t let him gain a foothold H G. Repel the boarder, eject the intruder, cast him out.
“I do not hide.”
“But might you not realise that you are doing so?”
“No.”
“Could it be that you do not know who you are?”
“No.”
“Could it be that you do know but would prefer not to contemplate it?”
“No.”
“Is this line of discussion making you uncomfortable?”
“No.”
I shifted my gaze back to Dr E. Go on, keep trying to batter through my defences, you will not succeed. I know your game Dr E. I know what you are trying to suggest but I am not going there.
“Very well. Let us go back to how you regard yourself then, elaborate on that,” he invited.
The sense of relief washed over me but I gave no outward sign of its effect. I smiled, elated to have rejected this probing once again and excited by the prospect of talking about my favourite subject in greater detail; me.
216 thoughts on “Hiding From Yourself”
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This got me thinking how does anyone truly know who they are? What builds self awareness and strengthens self identity?
For years i struggled with this and i now know i compartmentalized a lot and lived in an altered state within my own mind. I can understand this part of npd despite not being a narc. I get how an identity can be self manufactured.
The question i think boils down to what do you stand for? What are your beliefs and values in life? When you work those out you start to learn who you are.
With narcs they dont have values and their beliefs fluctuate to whatever they need to be to get them what they want. They dont stand for anything concrete when it comes to others it may look that way but the motivator always comes back to them and their own selfish needs. Always in a perpetual state of self preservation and they can never find out who they are.
Dr e knows about npd and the core issue of fear of the past which is rooted in the core of self identity. That core has been compartmentalized and he is very aware of this but whether you can uncapsulate it is another question.
Dr o i think has her own issues that have clouded her ability to be a good therapist. Shes allowed you to seduce her from what i gather which is a danger flag in her profession. I suspect she needs a therapist of her own.
Dr e knows very much about npd control manipulation and is immune to the mind games. I think he can help if anyone can.
HG I’ve often wondered.
If there was a way – to go from being “self”-less in extreme separation, to “self”-less in unity –
-WITHOUT having to face the creature and all the pain that created it , nor experience cognitive dissonance
In other words , no pain
Would you do it?
What if you could love as you are and have it happen in the last 40 seconds of your life?
(I’ll just say I don’t know of any such way existing , And don’t see it as possible , but just out of curiousity about you)
Thx
*^ LIVE (as you are)
I do not understand what you mean.
I’m not sure I can explain it further
If I can, I’ll pick this back up later 😊
As to now now my therapist actually took out a book to read DSM on narcissists. Enough said. HG is the best.
HG approves.
One more thing my first husband of 6 years was diagnosed as an antisocial. I got 80% custody after fighting him at first unemployed then by myself. He said I was delusional because I accused him of tax evasion and the gun with the cocaine and the affair. He was a multi millionaire. I left his 5000 square foot home and no job despite it all. He said divorce was off the table and “ what more could a wiseman want.” I met plenty who turned their cheek. But I wanted more how sad my ignorance did not allow me to find it. But we have created a loving highly successful girl and we have not spoke in 17.5 years. Not one word. We stuck to an order which I enforced except I paid for things he was court ordered to do. The psychiatrist appointed said anti socials can be good fathers. At first I was sickened but in time I see. As long as you provide the nurturing your kid will be ok. I would say my relationship with him does not matter, you have your own. I mostly raised her but she picked up some good qualities such as business sense and not spreading herself too thin like I do. It’s possible. She is a great kid. Worry about her future… but who knows? Right?
One more thing, whether you believe Jesus was a man as some historians would say or the son of God, there was a thief crucified next to him and a murderer to which he simply said sin no more” and those who persecuted him Jesus said “ Father forgive them as they do not know what they do.” Taking religion aside the person who wrote of him found forgiveness and empathy for narcissists and sociopaths. Might not that be a lesson? To those better educated, I paraphrase. I am not well educated in any theology.
Do you dream HG? Is your subconscious different? I would think you don’t dream. I think I am an empath in that I have always been the one everyone turns to personally and professionally. I have taken numerous people in and the rewards were 10 times the gift. I can read people. I nurture everything from plants to animals to people. My children excel in their calling. I have lost one friend in life. Most friends are forever. I wanted to be a DA to put bad people away and make the world a better place. But the whole actions of those on my side of the table effected as much as the criminals but never as much as the victims. I am trying to end a marriage with a midrange narc. I put boundary after boundary and he ended up going from having no job to his best ever, sober, driving in UK and US after never passing the UK test and married, traveled etc… but I have hit a road block. He did silent treatment after a second time refused therapy or is… and thus I have left him. I love him despite his illness but I have many to love. My real question is my dreams. Unusual since childhood. I am not psychic nor do I believe in it but I have had a few dreams that are unexplainable yet with evidence provable. I have had books written in my dreams. I am no author. I get answers. I even had a dream about who you were. But it was because I felt guilt and some fear talking with someone who is of your type. I have faith. Strong faith but it is private. I respect and embrace all religions. I have founded a children’s charity, saved an elderly neighbor from losing her home, etc… the truth is I feel the one lucky to help another. It is a gift to myself. I love it when a loved one succeeds. Feel happier. I take on and help others. What I found with you is understanding my narc husband. But rather than feel anger, I did some… then felt guilty as I did react at time in a lesser manner… I feel empathy. He had a horrific childhood that no one should have endured. I did not do no contact to protect me but because once a boundary is laid, there is no hope other than prayer or for a higher source. And I must love myself and those around me. My question is the dreams… never understood. And don’t like any unfounded response. Do narcs and empaths dream different?
I do not dream or if I do, I never remember.
My “ narc” only had anxiety dreams is spiders getting him or did not recall. My sociopath ex husband had no recollection. Our brains are different. I think. I have no other narcs in my life but these. I don’t Marry well lol. But now with knowledge I see work associates and some clients in the narc category. My dreams give me only pleasure, wonder and answers.
Hello Kimberly, Like you, I was curious about dreams and I sought to understand them. I have many different types of dreams, from emotional to symbolic to productive dreams where I can complete a project in my sleep. I researched dreams from the psychological to scientific angles. I also found an app that I found to be fairly accurate in terms of insight for dream interpretations. I have spoken to both empaths and narcissists about dreams IRL. Many Ns told me of their dreams in detail. (Or are they entertaining stories to gain fuel? TBD.) Other Ns said they do not dream. Since dreams are often about our emotions associated with thoughts or actions, it may be that the N suppresses these emotions as part of the N construct. I know of no study that has researched the dreams of narcissists; it would be a very interesting aspect of research though.
Generally, our subconscious operates at all times (in all people) and our conscious mind only while we are awake. It is believed that our dreams are our subconscious’ way to work through our feelings with regard to our thoughts and actions (experiences). Scientists believe everyone dreams, but 95% of all dreams are forgotten. Dreams are assumed to last between 5-25 minutes each during REM sleep.
Dreams are symbolic and dream analysts have determined, with consistency, some of the common dream symbols across multiple studies. It is important to note that every dream can be interpreted differently and interpreter bias can play a role. Therefore, it is important that the interpreter be objective and have a clear sense of what may be at issue with the dreamer for a more accurate interpretation.
If you have a dream that is relevant to narcissism (as to stay on topic), I will demonstrate an interpretation just once to show you how to pursue your own analysis.
HG, If this is too far off-topic, simply delete this comment, no worries. Thank you.
Quite alright, do carry on.
FYC & Kimberly Wind,
I’m very interested in this discussion and hope you pursue it (so glad HG gave the go ahead).
I haven’t analysized my dreams (or actually had a dream) in a very long time but have formally, and informally, studied dream analysis.
FYC, interesting idea about studying the dreams of narcissists – but one question: how would you know if they’re giving you an honest retelling for their dream?
(Had to ask!)
Indeed, WC, hence my comment about fuel! This is the problem with self-report research. Perhaps HG could offer some insight here on N subjects and how to obtain accurate feedback (if possible)? Even in the absence of accurate feedback the study would still be very interesting.
FYC,
You did comment about fuel! (I missed that part) as I was excited about the dream discussion. With or without accurate dream reports it would still interesting to compare sleep patterns between narcissists, normals and empaths…i.e., length of REM, other signs of the dream state.
HG, is this an area of narcissism that you want to compile info on – or have you been?
I have not compiled any substantive information on this above that which is anecdotal so if you have something for me to consider, do email it to me. Thank you.
Thank-you HG, I do not have anything specific to consider at this time.
But I find the subject of dreams very interesting (for narcs and empaths alike). My mother (Mmrn) would often report having the same nightmare although she never shared the content of this dream. I didn’t think it was to garner sympathy/fuel and because I tend not pry into people’s privacy I never asked her what it was about but I did register what looked like a genuinely disturbed look to her features when she would mention it some mornings.
HG, you say that you don’t dream; do other schools of narcissists dream or if they supposedly do – is that just based on the anecdotal evidence you referenced?
Thank you for thoughtful and provoking response. It is exciting to meet someone like me. My best ideas come from my dreams for work. I have been to the most beautiful places. I have varied dreams. I have had a few exceptional experiences. I will ask HG when I speak to him next at a consult. My ex mid range did not dream or recall them and was very curious. He occasionally had nightmares. Spiders. Demons. He has trouble sleeping although sex helps lol. Nobody could write a better book on the topic then HG.
Kimberly, This is not enough information to do a dream analysis, but to give a sample, I will use one of the subjects of your N’s dreams: To dream of a spider indicates feeling like an outsider in some circumstance. A spider can be a symbol of an overbearing mother or other female. A spider also symbolisms a powerful force protecting one from self-destructive behaviors (perhaps a N construct?). Every aspect of the dream is a puzzle piece in building a bigger picture. So without the context and dream detail, an accurate interpretation is not possible.
WhoCares, if you know a dream of your N, or your own, I can work with that if you are interested. I do hope some research is done in this area. I suspect the reason why HG does not recall his dreams is owing to his very effective defense and greater awareness of any potential intrusion to his construct. If he did remember his subconscious thoughts, they would likely be dismissed as dreams are usually emotionally based.
Thank you again FYC. Yes his mum is oppressive and definitely has a personality disorder. Her influence has made me wonder if narc traits or learned behavior versus him being a narc. Since you seem educated on the topic I will make myself uncomfortable and make you wonder if I am honest. I am. One of my long life of unusual dreams involved one of my dearest friends. A law school chum. She was pure Beverly Hills elite, I have worked for everything. She was my sunshine. Everyone loved her until… she had scoliosis and an operation and hooked on painkillers. Her father a famous celebrity attorney sent her to Malibu promises where she met a loser who moved in with her. She was killed by him. 40. A light ended. Her sister told me later. There had been 2 hung juries. I was devastated and invited to the third trial. The family was instructed not to contact anyone or discuss anything related to the case. I had a dream. I was in her room. So cold. Wind blowing. Her notebook kept flipping to a name Len Money. Then clocks everywhere 2:17 am. She appeared and put her arms on mine. Said tell my family I am alright. Her arms blended into mine. Then I was at an elevator. His watch said 2:17 and he pounded on the button for the elevator. There was more. I woke up very upset and even asked God to never give me these type of dreams. I went to the trial sat next to the lady from NCIS. But she looked familiar and spoke to me lots about her problems which distracted me. didn’t know her. At break I told her mother and sister about my dream. I brought my journal. I read my dream to them to be accurate. I have since 12 journaled. … Her sister asked if I knew the DA ‘s theory. I did not. It was he “lent her money. “ Len money. Her mother said “thanks” the LA coroner never confirmed her time of death. It was “between 2 and 2:30 am.”He plea bargained 2nd degree and is out now:( I don’t get this or other dreams only a few but equally odd. My atheist friend who is a neuroscientist said “ some things can’t be explained.” And I read empaths dream different after learning the term narcissist and empath two months ago. I am new to all of this but thankful to HG. He keeps me strong. Truth has a ring to it yes? My potentially narc ex did not dream but for a few nightmares about spiders and demons taking him. My ex husband was declared anti social by the courts. He never dreamed. Never. Thank God all my other long term relations were good. But I have not married well. They were always curious. I think that there is something thereto explore. I know Jung wrote a lot about the subconscious as did Freud. But I don’t have the time really to truly analyze anything or the education. Maybe you do? Maybe we should ask a new partner about dreams lol! I am deeply appreciative of your input. I have discreetly not now.. sigh… have asked everyone who could answer about this. Thank you.
Kimberly, I understand. I need some time to respond, but wanted you to know I will soon.
Hello Kimberly, This reply is part one of two. To dream about demons indicates the dreamer may be experiencing or is inflicting fear, emotional distress or physical abuse in his waking life. Demons represent the shadow self. So it sounds like your narcissist ex had some subconscious awareness of his behavior. This does not mean he had/has conscious awareness of the same.
Or you ate strong cheese before bedtime.
HG, hahaha, I did say this stuff is off-topic in advance. Happy to cease if you like.
No, you may continue but expect my cynicism.
HG, I enjoy and appreciate your cynicism. Please do proceed. I prefer hard evidence as well, however, science is always in progress. I have had my own experiences with unexplainable events and therefore remain curious. It is assumed that dreams are the work of the subconscious creating images that help process emotions about certain events. I am not stating any of this is true or accurate, only offering published meanings to common dream symbols. Accuracy is impossible to verify and strong cheese may be a factor, lol. This is for entertainment/interest purposes only. I will end this topic after my responses today, but you are always welcome to end this sooner. Respectfully, FYC.
Hello Kimberly, This reply is part two of two. First let me say I am so sorry to hear about the turn of events in your friend’s life and of her passing at the hands of another. Such a sad and tragic waste of a once promising life.
I am an exceedingly logical person with a strong leaning toward scientific evidence, but I leave room for that which has not yet been established by clear evidence. It may be possible you were contacted by your friend in spirit during your dream. Clearly your details have direct links to elements of the actual case. If you were already aware of these facts, it could be the subconscious at work. If you did not know these pieces of the case and could not have been exposed to them, there is little other explanation for your dream details. In terms of dream symbols here is the corresponding meaning in accordance with the context you provided:
Being in your friends room represents your actual friend. The wind represents life force and energy. The cold indicates you are experiencing a breakthrough in some way. The notebook message represents something overlooked that you need to stay on top of. Len Money may have been a direct reference to lending money to her N as the intent of her murder. Lending money can also mean a loss of self, or in a positive light, can mean a giving of love. Seeing clocks signifies the importance of the time in some waking event. It is common for dying people to dream of a stopped clock, but in this came may point to time of death. Your arms merging represents your care and blended sense of responsibility as you reach out and bond. Your friend’s message is direct. She is seeking to comfort those she loves. An elevator in general represents the ups and downs of a situation, but in this case the significant part seems to be the time on the watch of the person pressing the button. This time on the watch most closely associates with your friend’s life and may represent the significance of it stopping at that time. A watch in a dream can also be a metaphor to “watch out”. The pounding on the button is analogous with demanding attention or action.
All of the above paragraph was taken from a dream symbol dictionary. Let me know if you feel if fits. I would be curious.
Hi kimberly…yes dreams can be very powerful! Its good you journaled them bc they dont always make sense and sometimes for years. I used to dream a lot moreso than now and one in particular id journaled i looked back on and it unfolded before my eyes. At the time it made no sense but fast forward having my kids and how things have worked out with my mother it makes perfect sense.
There is much of our brain thats a mystery. Your friend was reaching out to you and you were open to her messages. They choose those that are spiritual and open to recieving. Im sorry for what happened to her very sad and tragic 🙁 Im glad you were brave enough to share your dream bc it helped with closure something she knew was needed. You were her messenger 🤗
Hi fyc…its interesting the correlation in respects to dreams and narcs. My narc has dreams but crazy ones but i think it may be brought on by a med he takes once a week.
I am curious what tiger or lion dreams mean. For about 20 or so yrs now ive had a reoccuring dream of being in my house and theres a tiger or lion in it which i keep running from room to room to get away from. It never runs but walks after me. I wake up very anxious.
Usually id pass it off as just a dream but ive had it so many times the same dream exact.
Hi ChiMum, To see a tiger in your dream represents power and your ability (or lack of ability) to exert it in various situations. The dream may indicate you need to take a greater leadership role in some issue. Being chased by any animal signifies you are avoiding a situation that you do not believe is conquerable. Seeing a tiger or lion can alternatively can represent unexpressed and unacknowledged anger which is projected on the animal symbol. You may be running from a primal urge or fear or from repressed emotions.
Let me know if any of this rings true to you. I have not used this dream dictionary for others outside this thread, so I am curious.
FYC,
I just saw this now:
“WhoCares, if you know a dream of your N, or your own, I can work with that if you are interested. I do hope some research is done in this area. I suspect the reason why HG does not recall his dreams is owing to his very effective defense and greater awareness of any potential intrusion to his construct. If he did remember his subconscious thoughts, they would likely be dismissed as dreams are usually emotionally based.”
Thank-you for that offer, FYC. I may take you up on that…but as I mentioned; I rarely dream as of late or don’t recall my dreams if I do. Although I used to dream often and write my dreams down.
I wondering if you embrace any particular theory on the purpose of dreams? I’m no longer certain that I put any stock in a particular theory but I am most familiar with Jungian dream interpretation (and post-Jungian theory) and really appreciate that, according him, there are different levels to all the symbolism found in dreams. For example, a particular symbol may have meaning for the individual dreamer, then the same symbol can have cultural meaning and finally there is the universal level (or archetypal). I like the depth of interpretation in this model of dream symbolism. I have also studied (a wee bit) Adler’s view on dreams and simplistically, he believed that dreams could be viewed as a “practice run” or the brain working out potentials.
That is interesting that you say that HG’s subconscious may dismiss dreams (therefore not remembering any) because they are emotionally based.
I wonder, since all learning is emotionally based, if because the narcissist’s emotional repertoire is restricted if this would result in having fewer – if any – dreams.
Scientifically, REM periods (also associated with dreaming) are longest during the sleep cycles of children (indicating the brain processing all the new information the child as absorbed) and that the REM of the elderly are the shortest (please note I have not revisited any of these scientific studies – or new research – but am going on memory) because there is less new learning or information for their brains to process. Also, as we have learned here, empaths can apply new knowledge and change behaviours/curb their addiction to narcs. Whereas narcissists resist change or are completely unable to change – maybe this also partly why they dream less – since most really cannot self-reflect and process new perspectives, etc…I think further studies on REM sleep would shed some light on this – if it’s not already being done.
Hello WhoCares, I will respond to you later in the day as I have a prior appointment and your answer will involve more theory on narcissism as well. Stay tuned. I’ll finish today.
HI WC, My view is the subconscious operates at all times, but takes center stage when we sleep. During waking hours, the conscious mind is center stage. During lucid dreams, a hybrid state of consciousness and subconsciousness occurs (with measurable differences from waking consciousness and from REM sleep in prefrontal areas of the brain). I believe dreams serve a purpose of providing the subconscious mind a way to interpret emotions we experience that are ignored, suppressed, unresolved, or unaddressed (or perhaps we are unaware or in denial of and therefore do not consciously process).
I have not studied dreams via standard psychology theorists. Most of my reading was from a variety of scholarly articles from the last decade that appear in ScienceDaily.com (which compiles data from a variety of sources). I recommend a search there. I also reviewed dream references for common dream symbols (many are based upon Jungian theory, e.g. water symbolizes emotion) and found them interesting and one fairly insightful for analysis. That said, they are not scientific, nor rigorously tested for accuracy (and I am not sure how that could be accomplished).
Since our original comments here, I searched dream recall. It turns out people with “high dream recall (while awake and asleep) show stronger spontaneous brain activity in the medial prefrontal cortex (area of the brain associated with thinking about ourselves) and in the TPJ (temporo-parietal junction of the brain involved in attention toward external stimuli). Interestingly, the MPFC (medial prefrontal cortex) also mediates empathy.
Chester, et al, 2015, studied the density of white matter tracts between the MPFC and the VS (ventral striatum area of the brain associated with reward and feeling good). The more highly subjects scored on narcissism, the less connectivity they had between the MPFC and VS. Since the MPFC is involved in dreams and dream recall, could it be that the affected areas of the brain reduce recall or possibly even dream activity? It would be interesting to know. I’d also like to know if how this loss of dream activity affects a person.
Ruby, et al, 2013 found high dream recallers are more reactive to environmental stimuli, awaken more during sleep, and thus better encode dreams in memory than low dream recallers. The sleeping brain is not capable of memorizing new information; it needs to awaken to do that. I recall HG saying in several places he has no problem with sleep and sleeps deeply. So maybe HG’s lack of dream recall is due to his ability to engage in deep sleep and REM sleep without waking. Or, perhaps his reduced dream activity affords him more continuous sleep cycles.
I think dreams will remain a mystery for some time to come, but more study would definitely be interesting.
FYC on August 11, 2019 at 04:55
FYC,
Thank you for taking the time to reply.
“My view is the subconscious operates at all times, but takes center stage when we sleep.”
I agree with you that the unconscious (Jung’s term, Freud used ‘subconscious’ and it was a slightly different designation) is always registering information that our conscious mind does not acknowledge. And I think dreams can be manifestations of the mind making that sense of that information or bringing it into conscious awareness conscious…it only comes through when the conscious mind is at rest.
“During waking hours, the conscious mind is center stage. During lucid dreams, a hybrid state of consciousness and subconsciousness occurs (with measurable differences from waking consciousness and from REM sleep in prefrontal areas of the brain).”
Lucid dreaming is such an interesting phenomenon. I have never experienced it but I know of individuals who say that they have had lucid dreams.
“I believe dreams serve a purpose of providing the subconscious mind a way to interpret emotions we experience that are ignored, suppressed, unresolved, or unaddressed (or perhaps we are unaware or in denial of and therefore do not consciously process).”
The practitioner that I learned from believed that the more attention you give to your dreams the more you’ll dream…(I found this to be accurate.) He advocated writing down/recording dreams immediately after having them (in the middle of the night) because the more physical movement you engage in, the faster a dream becomes a fleeting, half remembered occurence. I wonder if this potentially plays into a narcissist’s lack of memory for dreams since nearly every waking moment is spent seeking fuel – so who has time to reflect on one’s internal dreams?
Thank-you FYC, for the science references on dreams – definitely an area I would like to educate myself on further.
You are most welcome, WC, and thank you for the clarification in terminology. I guess I’ll say non-conscious since I follow neither Freud or Jung. 🙂 I often have lucid dreams, I actually assumed everyone has them and they may, but do not remember. I think the interesting part of the research was the point that one must wake momentarily to remember a dream. I also found the brain region of activity during dreams of interest. Maybe one day we will see some interesting research on narcissism and dreams. It would also be interesting to see a study on any correlations between the suppressed true self and the unconscious for Ns. Thanks for your thoughts and for the interesting discussion, WC!
FYC,
I only mention the clarification between Freud’s and Jung’s terminology because to some it matters. I know what you mean regardless of which term you chose 🙂… it’s a little bit like the difference between ‘supply’ and ‘fuel’.
I don’t follow Jung or post-Jungians but I have spent (significant) time in the past learning about his theories. My interest in this area stems from a fascination with universal symbols that cross cultures (despite some cultures having no contact with others having the same symbol), religion, mythology, stories, dreams etc… Jung’s work lends itself to this subject. I also found Jung’s personality types of interest; however, for me, no one has illuminated human behaviour better than HG.
That is fascinating that you can lucid dream – are you simply “aware” that you are in dream state or do you direct the dream itself with your conscious mind?
Re: a study on any correlations between the suppressed true self and the unconscious for Ns…do you believe that the brain wiring would change if N’s actively worked to bring to light what you describe as “the suppressed true self”?
This is what Jung believed in a nutshell: that we just need to make conscious and acknowledge the shadow parts of ourselves to become whole or to “individuate” or we are doomed to project these qualities on to others. There is a bit of truth to this: empaths can benefit from getting in touch with their narcissistic qualities while, seemingly, narcissists would benefit (or at least WE would benefit) from them getting in touch with their ’empathic’ qualities… only difficult part of the equation is that narcs can’t do this.
It’s only possible for them to work on their cognitive empathy – and then, even that is only possible for a given few.
FYC – do you believe in the plasticity of the brain and that unsupressing the ‘true self’ will result in actually result in changes in the brain wiring of narcissists?
(HG – I am not entertaining the idea that narcissists can change but just ‘theoretical’ discussion with FYC.)
WC, I love how your mind works. I think it is wonderful you have an interest in universal symbols. You have sparked my interest as well.
As for my lucid dreams, I am aware I am in a dream, and I can gently direct the course of the dream in an exploratory way. If I become too forceful in my ‘direction’ I will wake. For example, if I am having a pleasant dream and want it to continue in a certain direction or explore more than one outcome, it will work for a while, but if too much conscious thought occurs, I wake up. If I’m in a troubling dream, I cannot seem to alter course, but I can rewind as if looking for answers. If I have a work dream and recognize I am dreaming, I can complete work while I sleep which has been useful at times. My dreams are vivid like a movie. I gain a lot of insight from my dreams.
As for the true self/unconscious self theory, I would say that we all naturally suppress elements of our true self in order to effectively function with others (the definition of the false self is one of accommodation to facilitate outcomes).
For the N, I see this differently. Due to GDP and LOC, I believe profound changes take place psychologically and physiologically during the most critical brain and psychological growth periods. I believe the original (and repetitive) injury/pain is so significant, and the effects so complete, that the N construct is created as a defensive means of *survival*. This cannot be taken lightly.
I believe during this process, neural pathway development is altered. I believe this because this takes place during the most significant brain growth phase (creation of synapses, etc.) and when environment has the greatest effect on alleles to ignite the genes. For this reason, I believe the N is forever altered.
My personal nature is optimistic, determined and tenacious, so I do believe, in general, we can become aware, make changes and create new neural pathways. But with N’s this process is not straightforward and is thwarted by the survival aspect of the construct. Does this happen because of the brain structure? Probably in part. But the absolute nature of the defense, I believe is due to the perceived necessity of the construct for survival and the complete acceptance that the construct offers a superior way of life to the N. If I knew of any way to alter this, I would certainly share it will all, but in all of my research (reading extant studies) I have found no successful example of healing/changing a N. Therefore, HG’s excellent works apply in full.
Just jumping in to say I lucid dream on the regular and always looking for others to meet up with . Pick a regular spot you go to and describe it and I’ll try to find you.
Never know.
Also Ive had shared dreams.
Also one time all the dream characters froze and my dead mother visited. Of course I’ve had a million dreams about her since she died but this one was different because of the dream characters freezing in place and I could feel her essence. I mean if I had to leave money on it I’d say it was an actual visit but who knows.
Also I’ve always had dreams about performing exorcisms. so that’s fun .
I came up upon a particularly unpleasant entity Irl couple of decades ago -would not care to revisit THAT, thank you
But in the dream state it’s all good- just call in the white light – the whole scene. 😆 idfk man, I got some stuff goin on THATS fo sho
FYC we keep meeting. I feel lucky. I had a dream last week my narc was dressed in a black hood. The hood dropped and all I could see was eyes bearing into me with desperation. I turned but the eyes bore into me. I think I understand this one lol. I have read empaths have different brain structures. HG knows this as he believes it’s a DNA gene. I agree. My father’s side from Friesland is filled with empaths who happen to be creative too. I attended a lecture by Don Hahn today who spoke as an executive and top producer of Disney films. He described the training process of its animators. Walt got top fine artists and art schools involved. Even Frank Lyloyd Wright to train them. There were Five requirements. Empathy was one of them. So bravo to us as we can make money and succeed with our gift. Narcs aside we have purpose.
Contagious, The black hood represents his deceit and cloaking true nature and intentions. The eyes reflect your desire to break free of the intrusion of his unblinking stare (no doubt your desire to break free in general). It is interesting you state Disney looked for empathy in his staff. Some have written that Disney was a N. If he was, he was HG-like in his insight with regards to empaths.
Disney went globe trotting for fine artists. Put his animators in a fine art school. Models. Animals. Study of anatomy. Brought in people like Frank Lloyd Wright to provide input. (paraphrased) Walt says “ people love old songs, stories … “ sentimental.” Frank replied, Dead people. Yes we can be compassionate to them while we build their caskets. But the future is modern!” Walt had 5 requirements … of course practice was one. The fifth was empathy. Think Dumbo with his mother. I asked Don Hahn why like porn (lol got his attention) that when something is Disney…”we know it when we see it “but it’s hard to define. Do they have a secret board that censors anything Disney? Don said that of course working there decades there is an understanding but the answer: sincerity. That is and was the answer. Empathy cannot exist without it. I don’t know if Walt was a N, empath or normal. He was a genius. His success is built on empathy!
Very interesting information on Disney, thank you Contagious. I have no idea if Disney was an empath or N, but I do know he was a Mason. His somewhat secret Club 33 was a nod to this association. Disney was a visionary and left a legacy of joy for children (and adults) everywhere. It is a shame Eisner (former CEO) had such a negative impact during his tenure with his merciless focus on the bottom line (and not at all in keeping with Disney’s original vision).
I met Eisner at a private opening party for Downtown Disney. He was very aloof. Tall! Don Hahn must be an empath. He spent whatever time the audience member wanted answering questions, making them feel good, respectful and attentive, listened, and gentle. His voice was hoarse, you could tell he was tired but his integrity. You know he does not need to go to this extent. You know an executive at Disney who produced Maleficant, the Lion King, Beauty and the Beast is not doing events at small museums just for the money. He was “ sincere.” Lol
Contagious, that also fits with other accounts I have heard. I am glad you enjoyed your time. You are very observant.
Ok new one master. I had a dream my Mid-Range somantic elite ( had test) had a heart attack. I felt his cold feverish body. I held his spinning out of control heart. Then I was in some living room my dad who is kind and dead who rarely appears in my dreams sat next to him. There was sports on tv. My dad who would not look at me but kept his hand on my hubby said, “ I will care for him. It’s not your time. Go.” I woke up. My kind of ex hubby with a heart condition is ok as my dad has got this.
Okay Contagious, last one: Dreaming your ex is having a heart attack and holding his heart refers to his lack of love and support and your sudden realization of loss of love too. Holding his cold, feverish body represents your breakthrough in your awareness with regard to him. The living room is a symbolic boundary between your personal self and your public self; in this case, what you feel about your ex and what you portray about what you feel. The TV reflects how you are processing your thoughts and feelings. The sports on the TV represent two opposing viewpoints or opinions. Perhaps you are making sense of what you felt and what you now know. Seeing your father in this context symbolizes protection. He is taking the burden of this experience away from your consciousness to relieve you of both the pain and lingering concern and to assure you that you will go on; you can let go.
By the way I am truly sorry if you felt any obligation to help. I find dream analysis fun and you are very good. I promise not to ask again. I wanted to again express my gratitude. Best wishes always!!!
Contagious, Please do not be offended, I am sensitive to the fact that dream analysis is off-topic, so I feel I should not continue. Fortunately, your dream was relevant and on topic so no worries.
Also excellent interpretation. You have a talent, a gift!
When I first read this post when published as Impregnable, I took issue with Dr. E’s approach. This time I take issue with his level of understanding.
Are we the summation of self and other perceptions? No, we are not. Our perspective of self and other are distorted by the sum of our experiences and our level of awareness. We are never aware of our whole, nor is another. (Again, the Johari window model helps confirm this concept). We may evolve in our awareness and understanding, but we cannot examine that which we do not know that we do not know (the fourth quadrant). Further, we all hide (suspend awareness) from ourselves to some degree to enhance our effectiveness or to protect self.
HG, it seems to me you are keenly aware of the positive and negative traits and behaviors of others. You then paint others black or white based upon how each is currently serving your needs. It’s not that you do not see or understand, it is that you believe there is no useful purpose to choosing a gray position as it would not serve your needs.
Is this a correct analysis?
As for hiding from yourself (denial), we all practice this coping mechanism, empath and narcissist alike. Yet, for the narcissistic, it seems it is perceived that a constant state of defense must be maintained for survival.
Is this correct?
Thanks in advance.
YOu are correct FYC. I straddle two worlds but my response is governed by
1. What I need;
2. The absence of factors such as guilt, remorse, conscience ; and
3. The fact that there are still elements to my behaviour which are instinctive and I am blind to.
I appreciate your detailed reply, HG. I had not considered the influence of your second point. Thank you.
You are welcome.
FYC: I find your detailed response both educational, and fascinating. I think you are on to something. If empaths and narc’s have different subconscious and obvious conscious and you can locate differences in brain function. Brain function. Chemical? Neurological? Could there be a scientific explanation? Then I wonder about scientific assistance to narcs. ??? I have always had lucid dreams. I do the same as you direct my dreams , work on trials in my dreams. Like I said dream journals and journals since 12. Interesting you are open to spirit contact. I have no idea at all. Your interpretation felt dead on. I loved her. She used to say if she were a man she would marry me, she was pure sunlight. I believe yet another victim of opiate addiction. It’s surpassed car accidents in US. Ok FYC… deep gratitude… another… I was a partner in a law firm traveled between California and Nevada.. ended a 4 year relation with a trust fund baby… and had a fling with a Cuban model…was coming home from airport exhausted .. thought I had a blood disease… nope doc said pregnant. Before I found out I had all these dreams of Marlon Brando but not young hot sexy Marlon, grandpa Marlon who had died, we were sitting on benches, kissing, holding hands having long talks by the beach… and I told my friend I had a grandpa complex! I told many as so frequent. Filled up my journal. Speed ahead. I quit my lucrative job to be a mom, kept my baby, 30. But I had a premie. My water broke 1.5 months early. I refused epidermal and 18 hours of incredible induced pain my son was born… healthy. 6 pounds. High scoring. Home next day. Single mom. But you have to know my anguish for 18 hours…would he be ok? The next day I go home. Soon after. Being who I am I put baby next to treadmill. I pick up magazine. It says Happy birthday Marlon! Jack was born on his birthday. Coincidence perhaps but I have so many of these…. not all my dreams. I am no psychic. Don’t believe in that. But so many… and your input about how empaths and lucid dreaming makes me wonder what is all about. My ex husband was diagnosed an anti social. Believe it or not a good dad. I provided the empathy of course. But never dreamed. I had a friend who I know is a narcissist. She never had dreamed. My second husband either has narc traits or is a mid ranger only has nightmares. Maybe as part of the test… we ask our potential partner about their dreams? If they say I never remember my dreams or I don’t dream. Red flag. What do you think my new friend. And thanks. I was afraid of being judged a liar or lune. And you gave respect. I never shared anything outside religious leaders or close friends and for fun new age types. But you rang the most true. As you understand. Wonder what percent are like us. I don’t meet many. Not my family except my brother to some extent as an artist who does IT for $$ and not my friends. Truth your the first. By the way, I was worried about having a consult with HG. Then I had a dream the night before where I saw him blurry but saw his eyes and got lots of information. I won’t share unless HG says ok. HG will probably laugh. And it would be fun to test my subconscious. But we learn a lot here so it is probably more explainable anyway. Unlike jennis time of death or jacks birthday. HG has helped me more than anyone in my life. Whether he is a narc, abuse is not ok. He helped my escape and strategized with me. I expect a separation agreement Monday which waived spousal support and right to assets. HG is brilliant! Wish he could pick my juries or go into law enforcement as a consult on cases. He is the real deal!!!
I also want to pay my respect and gratitude to chihuahuamum and who cares. Btw I have dreams of feeding tigers and lions lol. Empath/narc. True. But my dreams involve feeding many. My odd dreams I have shared two. Most are seeing beautiful places and seeing deceased loved ones. But this site is not about my dreams. If you hit wiki dreams we’re spiritual in all societies. But going to science, I have no education except to say I plan to ask any future mate about his dreams lol. On a funny note I saw this French film called Jules and Jim last night it was about a female definite narc and her two men. Talk about a triangle. I can’t read a book or watch a movie now without seeing. HG has changed my life in this regard in a good way. I would like to believe that with science and understanding that if explored narcs could keep their “superiority”, relentless ambition with having some degree of empathy. My ex husband never understood joy and hated death which I welcome as a joy and transition. Not that I want to die. But in my pain of a desertion from my second narc hubby… a few days after I decided enough is enough…my daughter said at lunch“ mom you seem fine.” I said not true but that’s because a butterfly gave me joy today. “ she laughed. There’s always LIFE… and despite the pain from narc treatment, joy emerges in many forms. Not just content, not just happiness… joy. I think someone needs to tackle this subject with pedigree. I wonder HG if you could be who you are but experience joy…wouldn’t you want it? No clue but someone should explore it. Our world has collective subconscious too. I saw a Russian writer discuss it at a library event. She was the writer that did a book on pussy galore and many others. A dissident and lesbian. The research could go beyond differences in brain functioning to a wider impact. ????
A383,
I enjoyed your comment; very thought provoking.
“As for love….. you admit that it is impossible for you to feel love, so what’s the point in even trying at this stage in your life. What’s in it for you really.”
When I read this though, aside from the conclusion that a narc is in a relationship for his own needs – is that any different than anyone else?
I can’t help thinking it must be lonely at the top.
WhoCares, thank you….x
I like the image you used here very much HG.
HG, I’ve been watching a therapy program where celebs are in therapy, one of them the guitarist from the sex pistols, he’s a very good example at the age of 61 of what you write in the fading narcissist. He’s completely open about his life and is looking for answers but does not know he’s a narcissist. The therapist at no time mentions narcissism and appears to be unaware but maybe that is just a word he would not put onto a client ? I’ve watched a few of these celeb therapy programs with different therapists and quite a few but not all clients are narcissists but it’s not ever mentioned . Would you say therapists avoid labelling clients narcissists as it may in some way sound bad or critical of the client , like saying your a bad person or something like that , some therapists do discuss inner child but not many , the closet to it was one therapist saying arrested development . This particular celeb is now struggling at 61 to continue to fill the void (his words), he’s obviously a somatic narcissist but has been diagnosed as a sex addict 🙄 Every thing he says is basically a narsissist, can’t sustain relationships , alcohol problem and Jekyll and Hyde personality it goes on and on. Right down to the girl at age 18 that got away that he loved but it was never consummated !!!!!!!!!
Prefers sex with strangers feels nothing for women in relationships it’s just sex but bores of that and needs variety. Also some Madonna Whore thing going on.
My point is if myself and other readers of your work can learn to spot them with no formal training just reading, how can the mental health profession not have access to this type of disorder information during their studies before they qualify ?? I don’t understand that , the information is out there and in that profession they should be looking for it and learning it ? How do they qualify without knowing this stuff ?
Some do not have access to it, some focus on other areas and do not have enough exposure to the information to create expertise, some arrogantly dismiss it thinking they know better.
Hi
I would just caution against diagnosing people narcs.
Unless you have one on one experience with that person I would doubt we can diagnose so easily .HG prob can but for the rest of us I’d use caution here.Everyone has narc tendencies but may not be a narcissist.
We are not qualified to judge people from TV programmes.
Just my opinion.
Valid observation.
I agree with you, Kiki
Kiki
I agree. I see people who I think are confusing narcissistic traits in someone as being a narcissist quite often. Someone can come across to others as unemotional, opinionated, rude, selfish, arrogant……the list goes on, but that doesn’t mean they don’t still possess empathy, or that their intention is to cause harm. Haha, I should know. I mean it is just as easy to label someone as overly insensitve, soft, or weak, but that does not make it true and does not seem to be thrown around as much.
HG’s article Narcissistic or Narcissist is an excellent listen to help sort this.
Thanks Narc Angel
I do see a lot of he/she is a narc thrown around.
For me personally and this is just my opinion,I could be incorrect here , we never know the narc lurking underneath until it’s too late and they have fully ensnared us .
It is very very difficult to spot as true narcs keep it well hidden until we are emotionally invested.
They are stealth movers.
Kiki
Thanks NarcAngel and Foolme1time for your lovely comments. They were very helpful and so very truthful.
Luckily my ex lives on another continent so I have limited access to him. It’s my children whom I worry about.
And thanks HG – your insight has helped me immeasurably.
Pleasure.
Hg, do you know of any narcs on your dads side of the family? If so, who?
I do not know of any.
K and Mercy, I remember the first time I commented on this blog I was the one saying “ Don’t you all see what he is!” and so on and so on. It took a very long time for me to believe him even with the five rules in place. But then all of a sudden something clicks and all that he says is truth. He gives the answers that we are all searching for. He gives us the knowledge that leads to the protection that it will never happen again. If that is not enough he then gives you the courage to go on and not take your own life which is the only possible way you can find to stop it from happening over and over again! All the while I believe he is helping me learn about narcissist and then discover he is also helping me learn about myself. Ok! That’s enough of of that ET! NA hows the 🦜?🙃
FM1T
The parrot is good. Busy learning new phrases that save me time. The current phrase it utters is “I smell bullshit”, so now when I detect it I can just point to the bird.
FM1T, oddly I’ve never been angry at HG. When I first found this site I saw it for what it was. It became the place I went to when things were bad in my relationship. HG provides the answers we need but we have to make the decision to change our lives. It doesn’t just happen by reading. I think the “click” you talk about is accepting responsibility.
Beautifully stated, FM1T.
foolme1time
I called him a lowly smack dealer and a trafficker of human souls. Then time passes and something does click and we start to understand the narcissistic perspective and we even learn to understand ourselves better, too. The experience is surreal.
Hahaha K, I can’t imagine that. I’m sure he replied with something infuriating like “from your perspective”
Mercy
Ha ha ha…he didn’t respond; he just let me vent my spleen!
K
Haha. You were a fucking riot when you arrived here (you still are). There was something about your anger that was different. I thought: this chick is letting it out but can harness it in a healthy way (toward both HG and others). Inquisitive, explains her position, and is not afraid of her dark side.
Thank you NarcAngel
Ha ha ha…I was so fucking pissed! I wanted to blow them up with TNT, ship them all off on Death Stars, use them for skeet AND zyklon B them all.
1 Death Star can hold approximately 873,000 passengers. We are gonna need 1,145 Death Stars.
Ha ha ha…..I really love my dark side.
https://narcsite.com/2017/07/23/the-mid-range-narcissist-five-facts-2/
K
Haha I love this!! Through your rage you stop and analyze yourself. “I think I’m going through the anger stage of grief”
Mercy
Ha ha ha…thanks, I needed a good laugh this morning! I think I was trying to take a step back and be objective. I was so fucking mad that I wanted to lop off heads but now I can just look back and laugh at it. My motto is: when you feel an emotion, just express it. Let it all out. Ha ha ha…hold nothing back.
I hope you all burn in in hell. You steal and corrupt everything you touch. The infection runs so deep, the feeling of not being worthy or loved. You made me feel panicked and provoked.
I fucking hate you!!!
I sit here with tears running down from all you did, all you forced me to endure, all you force me to hold within, fuck you all to hell and back.
All I want is to rip you limb from limb…..I hate you! I fucking hate you!
I want the pain to stop, why won’t it stop…..
DFA, I’ve been there. Sometimes you just gotta let it out.
Me too, Mercy. It is an awful place to be.
It sure is K. I’ll never forget those moments.
Your comment made me cry.
DFA,
If it helps, keep writing out your feelings here. This is a safe place and everyone is incredibly supportive. I don’t know your personal story but we have all experienced what you are feeling right now on some level. It will take time but you will heal from this by learning, asking questions, reading the articles, consulting with HG and interacting with all of us. I’m sure that trusting others is something that you are struggling with a lot, at this time, rightfully so, but at least trust yourself that you found your way here which just shows how strong and resourceful you already are.
And take a little time everyday to do something loving just for you because YOU ARE WORTH IT💜
Dearest DFA,
I’m devastated you are hurting so much right now
The majority of us here have all probably uttered your exact same words and felt the same excruciating pain
Please let us in and help you
Trust me ….. you are loving and worthy
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Hello Bubbles
DFA was/is the name I go by when I am deeply troubled. DFA was my original “name” before my ex figured out who I was here and subtle threaten me by hacking into my account and posting under my name, it was a poem I had written when I was a teenager and added to the end. I took things to HG when I saw it. HG believed me at a time I didn’t believe anyone else would here.
I no longer worry about my ex coming for me…..he holds no power over me. If i chose to speak I shall do so.
The day I made that comment I was dealing with an issue that deals with my husbands family. I hold an incredible amount of anger towards them for the things they have done and those close to me that have been affected.
Dearest Twilight,
Thank you lovely ..your comment is very much appreciated …. I didn’t realise that was you
Sometimes you just need some support to get back on track
Sadly, anger goes with the narc territory ..but in the long run, they don’t warrant that satisfaction
Never forget Twilight, you’re worth more than all of them put together
Hugs to you beautiful
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
HG, is this is before you’re diagnosis?
No Mercy, it is not.
Thank you HG and thanks for not calling me out on the “you’re”
You’re welcome.
Are the details of the GD being revealed to us relatively shortly after they occur or are you talking to us about a distant past event?
I assume that being a GEN means you have thought of everything in terms of secrecy, privacy and carnage that occurs through online hackers?
HG,
I’ll be honest with you, I can’t see why you would want to change. Not now.
You appear to have a fabulous life: great job, money and you’re a highly intelligent man with an amazing gift for writing.
You’ve always, and probably always will be able to attract women, even as you age.
You’re more than capable of hoodwinking the good doctors into signing you off so to speak as ‘much improved’ at the very least, and your mother will be dead soon enough and then you will be head of the family.
Also, aren’t you worried you’ll lose your ‘mojo’ just a touch with all this pro social approach – what attracts most people to narcissists you may lose because you’re so busy slowing your thinking down you won’t know if you’re coming or going.
Also, narcissism is on the rise. You’re the poster boy.
How will it play out to a larger, uneducated audience if you are, for example, married and settled but have to keep constantly telling people (especially people only discovering NPD) … ‘now remember, I’m a Greater, my dynamic with SM is unique.’
All of us here understand it cause we’ve been here for years (!!) but a wider audience simply won’t understand or accept it….. ‘my narc is unique too, he can change, just like that HG Tudor guy.’
As for love….. you admit that it is impossible for you to feel love, so what’s the point in even trying at this stage in your life. What’s in it for you really.
Plus, what is love anyway. Everyone is different.
You don’t suffer the heartbreak that most have here. You’re lucky in that respect, I believe.
As for the void, it’s not only narcissists that have them, codependents do too and for many, only a narcissist will do. That’s the truth!
Finally, I can’t see how any person with the traits you require would be able to accept a life with you long term. You may be able to modify your behaviour for SM somewhat (especially during the GP) but surely eventually the narcissism will seep through and she’ll see it in the treatment of others round about you… her family etc. She may be able to put up with it… but maybe not.
It’s a tough one for you HG.
Best wishes as always. x
Hello A383,
1. I am not concerned about losing my mojo. I understand your point and it is a fair question, but I am a man of considerable talent, the garnish of pro sociability notwithstanding, and therefore I have no concerns in that regard.
2. The caveat with regard to my dynamic with the SM is a valid one. On the one hand people want to know about me, my progress and my interactions with others but then there is the risk you identify and therefore one considers whether this new relationship should continue to be mentioned. That stated, I do know that my dynamic is only a very small percentage of Reasons Why The Victim Thinks They Should Keep Going With The Narcissist – nobody has ever mentioned it for example in consultation with me, it is the other reasons which are well rehearsed and you are familiar with, which are raised far more often (those being manifestations of ET) and it is those which I tackle also.
Thanks for replying.
I wonder if I may ask, if it’s not too personal a question HG, but would you, given the chance, trade your seemingly perfect adult life for a mother who loved, nurtured and protected you as a child?
x
No.
Thank you x
The only reason for change that would directly serve HG (as there are many reasons that could serve others) is this:
As an Ultra Elite, HG has the rare opportunity to retain every arrow in his quiver, while no longer feeling compelled to chase a target.
In theory, if it were possible to heal the original narcissistic wound, the void created by the false self would greatly diminish. HG would be driven by free choice instead of need for fuel, affording him many more options (while not excluding current options). Further, it would conserve personal energy, as it takes a great deal more energy to remain highly defended.
HG’s excellent intelligence, vast knowledge and experience, his skill sets, appearance, wit and humor, wealth, etc., would remain unaffected.
So if power and control are desired, why not seek change?
Besides, there’s the added benefit that comes from really knowing your true worth, versus being haunted by the lie that you are not enough.
A383
I enjoyed your post and the thoughtful questions you presented. I think unknowingly you were asking for many. I do not understand the point of the prospect of marriage for him that some people have raised for instance. Not in this day and age and given that he has no religious reason or affiliation and narcs claim they own you anyway. But I suppose it adds to the facade and they do love a party that focuses on them. And if he’s going to do it, he’s not getting any younger. Best he do it while the wedding photos show he still has hair (like Prince William and Matt Lauer did lol).
** Ducks at flying debris **
Hello, H.G.Tudor.
A psychologist asks me who I am? and I wouldn’t be too sure if I knew what to answer.
After a while thinking this would be my answer…
I could answer that I am a consciousness within a body, with emotional traits that has acquired a series of experiences throughout its existence. Some positive and some negative. And this acquisition of experiences defines me as what I am. But with free will to choose in the future what I will be, based on the experiences and my feelings. I am an entity, with free will of choice, I can choose what I want to be, what I want to have, what I want to suffer or what I want to leave behind … In short for what I see an excellent fuel supplier, quality AAA+++ and a wonderful being, hahaha.
“I’m what I learned during this transit.”
Possibly the question has its complexity at the time of answering, but in my case this is what I am and so I have told you.
How am I?
What do I feel?
How do I see myself in relation to other people ?
I will leave it for another occasion…
I really believe that the psychologist’s question would have had to ask more specifically for:
What was it?
And HG would have answered: a fuel aspirator, without blinking.
Hello, H.G.Tudor.
A psychologist asks me who I am? and I wouldn’t be too sure if I knew what to answer.
After a while thinking this would be my answer…
I could answer that I am a consciousness within a body, with emotional traits that has acquired a series of experiences throughout its existence. Some positive and some negative. And this acquisition of experiences defines me as what I am. But with free will to choose in the future what I will be, based on the experiences and my feelings. I am an entity, with free will of choice, I can choose what I want to be, what I want to have, what I want to suffer or what I want to leave behind … In short for what I see an excellent fuel supplier, quality AAA+++ and a wonderful being, hahaha.
“I’m what I learned during this transit.”
Possibly the question has its complexity at the time of answering, but in my case this is what I am and so I have told you.
How am I?
What do I feel?
How do I see myself in relation to other people ?
I will leave it for another occasion…
I really believe that the psychologist’s question would have had to ask more specifically for:
What are you?
And HG would have answered: a fuel aspirator, without blinking.
Once again interesting very suspenseful…question hg when the good doctors are asking you questions are they asking in a fuel free fashion or are they asking and providing you fuel?
They provide fuel, it is a proximate engagement therefore whilst their tone may not always provide fuel and sometimes the word used will not provide fuel, there is body language, facial expression, look in the eyes and therefore they will nearly always provide me with fuel (either Pure Fuel or Challenge Fuel)
Christopher
Great question. Don’t think I’ve ever seen that asked previous.
This breaks my heart reading this, but also makes me so angry. I wish you had the courage to really answer their questions – because it is courage that is needed here. You know exactly what you are and the abuse that you inflict upon others and you have the chance to actually explore that, but refuse. As noted, most narcissists don’t have insight into their behaviour, but you do. I know it’s not so simple from your point of view, but it appears that fear rules your life.
You are confident to the extreme, yet lack courage.
I suppose I can’t expect a narcissist to behave any different. The abuse and damage that your ilk inflict on innocent, kind and compassionate souls is just heartbreaking and will affect generations to come.
Just let the beast out – completely. Just try. You won’t die if you do.
I see you love bombing the Shieldmaiden – it sickens me. The fact that you don’t care one iota for her and your abuse will damage her for years to come, means absolutely nothing to you. I just wish some of your followers would stop spurring you on as they are part of the problem.
Yes my anger stems from being married to a man for 20 years – during the divorce the diagnosis finally came and my world fell apart – my innocent children now suffer his manipulation against their mother – my teen is now in therapy because of this damage. Rather just cut yourself off from people and live a life of solitude in order to protect others from your abuse. The monster will have no choice then but to come out of its hole.
The truth is that I do root for you to somehow improve yourself and then I read this post and it hits home once again, that there is no hope – for you, my ex husband and the millions llike you out there.
I appreciate your honesty in what you have written.
How do you know I am love bombing the Shield Maiden? Please set out the evidence of me doing so.
How do you know I will abuse her. I accept that it is a risk based on previous behaviours, but do you also accept that there is potential it may not happen owing to a unique dynamic. I have never stated it will not happen, but that it could happen (i.e. work) and we have to wait and see.
What you do not understand (and I acknowledge you are not in full possession of the facts) is that my conduct is driven by a higher principle of securing the Grand Design. One of the doctors (and thus the others will be tainted by association) is a Lieutenant of one of the narcissists who abused me. Hence I must play the games with them otherwise they will win and that cannot happen.
Oh no ☹️☹️☹️ Lieutenant Dr
The mere fact that you are splashing your pics and constantly mentioning her name on IG, and asking your followers should you ask her to marry you – whether this is said in jest or not – it is an indication that you are in some stage of love bombing. I cannot ever know for certain as you can merely state that I am wrong.
Yes you may not abuse her, but the fact is you are using her. By sharing her with your followers is not right – this is her privacy – although we don’t know who she is, it’s still wrong. I know if it were me, I would be extremely hurt knowing that hundreds of your followers knew about her, yet she is totally in the dark about who you are and the fact that you have people commenting about her, without her knowledge.
With regards to you securing The Grand Design – be brave, give up your inheritance and save yourself from the narcissist who abused you and still controls you. That would mean that you have strength and courage and basically telling her/him to fcuk off. BUT you won’t. That is so desperately sad.
Your fear of losing the game means that you will never be free. You will be tied to your abuser for as long as he/she is alive – that means they are in actual fact winning the game, but you cannot see it. They are still in control.
Very accurate , it takes strength and courage to say F off to someone who has you bound.
Why don’t you do it HG ? We can help you .
You need to rid yourself of the narc who made you one.
I am not bound to her.
I think HG has some ET going on! Is he lying to himself?
Perhaps this blog is his revenge on the Greater Matrinarc. I wish!
Nonsense.
Why is it so absurd so give Matrinarc the birdy by creating this blog and in doing so reveal her kind – exposing her at the same time?
Did I hear you say ET! Lol
HG is SM also part of your grand design?
No, but she has become part of it as she will assist in advancing it.
Thank you HG. I know you can not go into detail at this time so I will not ask anymore. Apologies if this shows up twice, WordPress is acting up again.
Is Shieldmaiden aware of her participation/assistance in advancing your Grand Design?
She seems a highly capable person to willingly assist from the limited information you have supplied. Given she is a magnet super empath who loves you, her motivation would be for your good, and the greater good of course.
Hello QQ, no she is not aware.
Your second paragraph is accurate.
HG, I do not want to go round and round with you, which is what happened when I entered this territory once before. I simply want to ask a question where I’m hoping you will be able to answer with a simple yes or no. Since SM is now part of your grand design and helping you in advancing it, when the grand design is complete and the world knows of it, will you allow SM to stand next to as your equal and receive the same credit and awards as you yourself does?
No.
Thank you HG.
HG, Thank you for your reply. I am hoping with your new dynamic and the compatibility you share with Shieldmaiden, that she may one day become aware–if it is in the best interest for you both.
HG, you say one of the narcissists who abused you. Is this narcissist whom the lieutenant reports to your Auntie?
No.
Thank you HG
foolme1time
My money is on MatriNarc.
Hmmmmm….MatriNarc’s brother, perhaps.
K, The reason I didn’t think it was MatriNarc was the way he commented. As you know are fearless leader at times speaks in riddles! Which leaves us scrambling and asking even more questions. Which I fell right into!
foolme1time
I love riddles and the process of elimination; it keeps us on our toes.
It is like the game Clue. Professor Tudor did it in the study with the Gruffalo.
Matrinarc holds the power over his inheritance.
FYC, I know that she does. I think it was the way he worded that comment “one of the narcissists” that’s what caused me to ask that question. I was a bit confused by the way it sounded as if it were more then just Matrinarc.
It’s not MatriNarc
So you even have more narcissists in your family then your Mother, Aunt, and Uncle HG?!
Yes, hence why I know so much.
You’ve probably gotten to study almost every school just in your own family HG. Do you think it was your intelligence that caused you to become a greater? We have not heard you (as of yet) speak of another greater in your family.
I didn’t think it was HG simply by the way you wrote that comment. But of course we won’t find out until the book is finished! Lol
HG, That is surprising! I apologize for my incorrect assumption.
FM1T, Good point. I assumed Matrinarc without realizing all of the narcissist involved too. My apologies!
No need to apologise.
Noted. Thank you, HG.
Oh dear.. so you are playing along with the manipulations and letting the narc think they are controlling you, while plotting your own thing.. I’d hazard a guess that the narc is paying for these doctors.. and another guess who it is. (but could be wrong) I asked on another post about confidentiality and how come someone knew something.. but won’t go into it. Hope you get your check mate. 🙂
I see from other comments now that I would guess wrong! I thought it was matrinarc:-)
When you say Grand Design – Stephen Hawkings quantum physics … ? I just gave my former step daughter a book about Design. Why interested;)
Not sure if my reply went through… Great Design? Stephen Hawkings? Just gave my step daughter a book on Design last month….
Shield maidens stood side by side male warriors in myth. History details that they existed. Viking culture demonstrates women shared equal rights such as owning land, divorce, and leadership… not as many in battle but there have been them unburied in Sweden. Image the beasts they stood next too and encountered. If true, I am not worried about SM… or HG … lol…
I realize this is an old post… And I have since seen you retract such statements with something more reasonable and accurate…
But you can’t seriously be offended that someone would point out the fact you Love Bomb your Girlfriend and then will end up abusing her… That’s the entire basis of your work… It is offensive to everyone’s intelligence on the site to challenge a statement like that when it is made.
The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. I believe you yourself have said that you agree with that statement.
This is why I have no respect for your kind. answers such as this.
I stand by my earlier response but you again missed the point of what I was writing. I was referring to the provision of evidence. Yes, earlier behaviour is a very good predictor of future behaviour when applied to the majority of narcissists, however, in the instance referred to, this was with regard to a new dynamic utilised by me as an ultra-aware individual. It is not offensive at all to challenge an inaccurate statement. I repeatedly state to people to look to the evidence rather than rely on bold assertions governed by emotional thinking.
It is not emotional thinking to state that a narcissist is love bombing their partner. The evidence (as she pointed out) is all over your IG account.
No, it is not emotional thinking to state that a narcissist love bombs, but emotional thinking does cause individuals to fail to have regard to the actual evidence.
You refer to my IG account. You have immediately made a mistake there because you have made a number of assumptions. I will point out three, although there are more.
What evidence? Evidence of meals in restaurants – do you know who is at each meal, do you know who pays for it, do you know who books the restaurant? No.
Evidence of travel – do you know who organises that travel, do you know if it is personal or work-based, do you know who pays for it or how it is paid for? No.
Evidence of gifts – have you observed that there are gifts in both directions? Do you know the basis on which gifts have been bought – do you know if it relates to a birthday, an anniversary or an achievement which merits the gift? You do not.
The amorphous comment “the evidence is all over your IG account” is not specific and is precisely the kind of blanket comment which arises from emotional thinking.
You are consistently dismissing what are logical opinions with this idea that we do not possess enough evidence.
You control the output of what comes on this sight, what you post on Instagram and what we are able to see. If you don’t want readers to make logical assumptions (based off of YOUR work) then perhaps you should provide more details in your posts.
Most women would see that as love bombing because men are not typically so lavish when courting. That is why they would come to that conclusion. If it’s not.. then it’s not. My narc did not love bomb all his victims (but that meant he didn’t really do anything… no gifts no dates etc) he love bombed me with his words. So he tailored it to victims like you would.
However, when it come to evidence of whether you will abuse her or not…My evidence is your work. Which I happen to believe in. And where in your work does it state a narcissist is capable of change? Where? It is repeatedly stated that is impossible. Perhaps in the moment when you wrote that you felt some belief that it may not be the case this time around. But your work repeatedly enforces the fact that it is not. Therefore it is insulting to say to a reader that that is thier emotinal thinking taking over when they are applying your work to come to the conclusion.
What you also fail to see is the evidence is in your articles all over this blog. Your entire blog is about no contact and GOSO and the reasons why.
I’m coming in on this 3 years after the fact and am aware that Shieldmaiden may or may not even still be in the picture. But, can I ask HG, if your relationship with SM as depicted in this discussion was not during the love bombing stage .. then was it a respite period after sustained devaluation had begun?
I’ll pretty sure we empaths see the monster? Obviously it’s a different kind of monster than he might endure should it find its way out but that’s because it’s directed toward him, instead of away.
Jeannine,
I respect you being forthright in your opinion and recognize the level of damage sustained by you and your family as a result of your ex-husband’s behaviour.
But I have to draw attention to this statement:
“I suppose I can’t expect a narcissist to behave any different. The abuse and damage that your ilk inflict on innocent, kind and compassionate souls is just heartbreaking and will affect generations to come.”
HG has already demonstrated here, through his work, that a narcissist can indeed behave differently (if it works in favour of his needs) and the resulting insight will (and does) positively affect the innocent, the kind and the compassionate – for generations to come.
WhoCares – thanks for your comment. HG has said previously that this interaction with others is part of his treatment with the good doctors. Do you think that he would have done this out of the goodness of his heart?
Please don’t for one moment think I am not grateful to HG for the information that he has provided. I have thanked him on two occasions already. I have tremendous compassion for Narcissists – those created out of neglect and abuse (my ex being one of them) hence my reasons for staying in my marriage for so many years desperately trying to help my husband – three psychologists and two psychiatrists later and still no improvement. I too have compassion for HG – I can only imagine the pain that he lives with each day.
I still have great compassion for my ex, even though he treats me very badly at times – I do understand why he is the way he is – I have been told that he more than likely is not aware of the damage that he inflicts (I believe him to be a Mid range narc). HG, on the other hand is aware of what he is, so he has an advantage above other narcs.
Let’s be honest, by the time people learn about HG and his blog, the damage is already done by our own narcissists, hence the reason we find ourselves here. He is able to finally make us understand what has happened to us and gives us clarity on the behaviour of the person who damaged us. BUT the damage is done – it does allow us to not enter into future relationships with Narcissists, so yes that does help us.
But we still have to remember that no matter how much we respect HG and the information he provides us with, he still abuses. maybe not here, but elsewhere. That is, for me anyway, very difficult to get my head around.
Jeannine
I understand your conflict as I have some myself. I would add this though about the fact that HG abuses elsewhere:
He would be doing that anyway and there would be nothing I, you, or anyone else could do about it. I wouldn’t even know about them if he didn’t write about them. I don’t believe there is any amount of words, logic, or emotion that people offer (professional or otherwise) that will affect him. He decides. So what I’m left with is the opportunity to take advantage of the narcissist for once. To use the information he provides that is helpful to me and to spread it for the generations to come. In this way we can give his victims a voice. That is my only concern and I recognize all that I can effect.
Logic. Pure, cold and effective.
NarcAngel – thanks for your comment. I agree with you 100%. That’s the reason why I very seldom comment – I normally read what I need, learn from it and move on.
I am also to my own detriment a very emotional woman and sometimes a post will hit home and I feel compelled to comment.
I think the truth is that I still sadly am holding out for my ex to become a better man. From this post I lose faith and see it won’t happen – a man like HG who has insight has no desire to change, therefore there is zero hope for my ex who has little insight into his behaviour.
Could do with the fact that my ex has arrived in my country to spend time with our children- his presence obviously irks me and I battle to contain my emotions.
HG knows I hope that I am grateful for his insight.
Jeannine, Myself also being very emotional at times I have had a lot of issues with what HG has done and obviously still does to his victims. However I have learned over time that as NA says we will not change him nor does he want to change. I started looking at in this way, this is my opportunity to get back at all the narcissists in my life, to use HG ( apologies HG) for his knowledge to give me the answers I desperately needed. Which I would of never gotten from any of them. Do I feel bad that he may be hurting someone else? I honestly don’t think about it anymore. For once I’ve made something about me. That’s what this is. A learning tool for me to protect myself and my family from ever being hurt by a narcissist again. It took a lot for me to get to this way of thinking, but to protect what is near and dear to my heart I will do what I have to do when I have to do it! I’m sure with your ex in the area your ET is way off the charts. I’m sure mine would be. Take care dear.
I’ve no issue with being ‘used’ in that way, this is part of the reason for this place to exist.
Thank you HG, I know that. The empath in me is still not use to using anyone, even you.
Jeannine
I understand. The reminder and realization that there will be no change can bring intense emotional reaction. I think its helpful for you to get it out when you feel compelled to comment. We are all emotional at times but I stil believe its better out than in (here – not with the narcissist). I hope you have zero or as limited contact as possible with your ex during his visit as you are aware already that it is affecting you. Take care of yourself.
Jeanine,
Thank-you for replying back.
HG is forthright in saying that he doesn’t do any of this out of the goodness of his heart.
And I would never label you as ungrateful for expressing your opinions.
I had compassion for my narcissist as well for a long time; but I had to put a stopper on that because he literally has no choice but to exploit it. I gave every ounce of compassion to him. They cannot stop themselves from taking; the only choice (for me) is to stop giving.
It sounds as though you’ve been down the road to hell and back with your narcissist. I’m sorry for your pain and the duration of time spent in attempting to help your husband.
Yes, you are correct by the time we find HG’s work the damage is done. But further damage can be prevented. And the fallout of us stopping the cycle of abuse, in applying what we know here, means that our children (and others exposed to HG’s work when they need it) may not have to suffer as we did – or they have access to insight and the *choice* whether or not to continue engaging their narc.
I don’t ever forget that people have suffered at the hands of HG – but you know what? That’s partly because he keeps reminding us himself – due diligence on his part.
But if you think about it (without emotion – and this is the difficult part for many) most of the insightful endeavours and pursuits that we benefit from (including the fields of medicine and psychology; if one educates themselves) have been brought to fruition through the suffering of *someone* (don’t jump down my throat by suggesting that I’m condoning abuse). It is a reality of any longstanding practice, yes, now psychology experiments have to go through an ethics board and such…but the very people who you seek out (psychologists and psychiatrists) in effort to help your husband are using insights that were often procured from the suffering of animals – and people. I’m not going to provide examples because they are out there for anyone to educate themselves on.
At least HG is not hiding under the guise of being a ‘helping professional’ that has only the ‘best interests of humanity’ at heart. He doesn’t care; but the result is some of us get to live a more humane life as a result.
Jeanine: the top psychologist told me when my daughter was 4 and gave me 80% custody after years of a fight and thousands spent and my multimillionaire narc ex … he wanted full custody: it takes one. She will be ok. And she is now almost 18 and an EMPATHETIC high achieving girl. She actually got good traits from both of us. The anti social and empathy. She sees his cold business logic, avoids my need to care take, and has vast empathy. It takes one. Great work. Great stength. I haven’t talked to him once since I walked out. But court orders were enforced. Your children will be ok if you are an empty and do the work.
Agree they only need one parental figure who’s present and empathic. But they might need double the emotional comfort – that’s ok.
Both mine are empaths flat out no doubt.
Could a MMRN or UMRN read your blog and learn more about themselves? I assume a LN would write it off but the MR may actually dabble.
If logical thinking is what the Ns do, and your articles are well written, factual and logical, surely they could easily marry your terminology against their behaviour?
What do you mean by MRN like to piggy back off a greater?
No.
Their narcissism blinds them to it.
Hang onto their coat tails.
I’m pretty sure your coat tails are dragging!
Noob,
Personality disorders are egosyntonic, meaning that the person with a personality disorder doesn’t know he has one. They experience their own behavior as consistent with who they are.
By contrast, someone with an egodystonic disorder will know something is wrong without having to be told. For example, people with obsessive compulsive disorder experience their obsession, be it hand washing excessively, checking that the lights are turned off excessively, whatever, as inconsistent with who they are. Depression and anxiety, assuming they are not better explained as part of a personality disorder, are also egodystonic.
Thanks WR.
No problem! I’ve responded to our conversations on other forums but HG is policing my comments.
I’m not trying to take you down, HG. I challenge your ideas because it helps me understand them more thoroughly. I challenge everything written by anyone in my field. I’m a fan of yours, albeit a reluctant one
Read the Rules – yours are not the only comments in moderation. All comments are policed, not just yours, that’s the nature of moderation.
Any delay in posting is for the reasons explained in the rules and nothing to do with apparently being challenged.
Got it. Thank you for your responses HG and answering my questions.
I’m going to block myself from viewing this site on my iPhone because I can’t stop looking and it’s upsetting. I don’t like leaving convos up in the air and I’ve enjoyed the conversation but this blog is not good for me.
It is triggering as hell and is giving me nightmares and insomnia. Sincerely happy for the many people who find help here
WR, I saw a lot of what you said and enjoyed our interaction. I’m sorry if you leave. More sorry about the nightmares and you feeling out of place but be assured that you aren’t the only one.
Getting my head about the fact some have run from one N to another (mr included) reading abusive material that has somewhat a gleeful energy and getting the low-down that the N always wins is a heavy pill to swallow. I wish you all the best.
Wendy. I have observed that what is considered a disorder in one century is praised in another, in one country versus another, in one class versus another, in one field versus another. Many of these psychiatric /psychological definitions of disorders have failed. Many people have to suppress what is natural and not wrong in order to fit into a given society’s rules in order to be deemed orderly. While many rules in society are actually psychotic and abnormal, those that violate them, or do not agree with them, are considered psychotic and criminalistic, and antisocial and even jailed, like in China (one child policy), in the United States (past prohibition against alcohol), In Western Society (one wife at a time, never together), the assault on Perfectionism while praising mediocrity, radical Feminism, Athletic energy versus stillness in children (psychotic ritalin drug solutions prescribed for the energetic child). etc. etc. A lot of madness is carried out by leaders in society upon the people. Those that try to fit in, but can not, or will not, to what is called behaviorally normal, at any given time and era, can be considered to have a disorder and to be in need of rehabilitation/re-education therapy or treatments. I agree wholeheartedly that disorders exist, like Charles Manson and his fairy tale believing playmates, very disorderly, for example, and there are many other examples, but it is a minefield to navigate a lot of what is called a disorder, at any given time, and from many conflicting initial hypotheses of what is and what is not normal.
I hear you. Definitions of health and disorder definitely change radically with the times.
Freud said that health is the ability to work and to love, which, while not comprehensive, I find to be a pretty good indicator of presence of a disorder
Wendy, You lost me at: Freud said…..
I am so sorry. Reading this was heartbreaking. Every question your doctor asked I could freely answer. But you cannot. You twist and turn and wriggle free of every question. You do not state who or what you are the way you do on here. Why?
Wounded. Even people considered normal do not like many of the questions that these people ask. Many of these doctors are voyeurs, as well. Mental voyeurs. It is a field that wants to be considered a science, but the Doctors themselves have difficulty getting out of their own way, since they are part of the laboratory with their own world view and prejudices and needs and goals, and unfortunately they can not sterilize themselves and move themselves out of the laboratory by putting themselves in a clean room. The mind is vast. It contains worlds, and unexplored regions. Who can know it? So, we just go along and do what we can, when we are in circumstances that put us in the psyche world and its practitioners. Also, many of their theories are out of date, and they know it. Also, talk therapy is not a solution for everyone nor for everything, and they know it. Psyche drugs and talk therapy have failed many, and they know it. Also, anything you say can and will be used against you. Remember that. Doctor Patient Confidentiality is a myth perpetuated by TV serials. But, it is what it is, in that profession. Buyer Beware (even if someone else has paid).
I think any profession has a myriad of talented, or untalented imperfect souls. We are afterall just humans walking this Earth one day at a time. I think the key would be to find the right fit. And if “ ordered” how can that be? Think Goodwill Hunting …
I am happy to stand alone, but I think it unwise to enable exploration and the possible acceptance of the ‘who’ you really are during therapy with a narcissistic psychopath.
The most dangerous liaisons occur when a dark reality is brought to life for the first time, be it murder, rape, infidelity, corruption etc. If a behaviour is known and accepted by oneself, it can be knowingly repeated, only this time it is conscious and therefore more powerful and targeted.
The chilling thing about the Greater narcissist is that they are self aware. In normal terms, we consider self awareness a great thing. I am sure it is a wonderful tool for the narcissist themselves, but it yields significant consequences for the rest of us. Self awareness when it comes to malignant behaviour is dangerous. Lacking self awareness is also dangerous. A narcissist’s motivation to maintain the fascade perhaps poses immediate danger to the individual engaged with them in the formal relationship, however it is a safety gate for society at large.
I have noted HG advocates for GOSO rather than lead your narcissistic psychopath to therapy. If I were the ‘Good Doctors’ common sense in the sheer boldness and lack of emotionality of HG’s confessions would make me think twice (possibly even thrice) about intervention.
“Muddy waters are best cleared by leaving them alone” – Alan Walls.
Very sensible.
Thanks HG.
My premise is you can’t change someone who doesn’t see an issue in their actions.
True.
I can see how my actions have an issue for others, but that is not an issue for me. Hence, why change?
Exactly – the narcissistic perspective and the very reason we need to educate our emotions here.
Sarah
You do not stand alone. I have often thought when people encourage HG (in particular because he is discussed here, but really any Greater narcissist) to investigate the creature, that it may not have the effect they expect or desire. That it may be a case of him actually knowing best why he keeps it buried. That we may prefer him to keep it that way if only we knew it like he does.
NarcAngel
Correct. Let sleeping dogs lie.
NA, I have thought of it in many different ways over the years. One of those ways is that HG through treatment that his Mother has demanded is just another way for him to improve on what he has already become. So by her forcing this on him she is actually creating a more dangerous version of himself! Especially because of his awareness and intelligence.
Sarah and NarcAngel, Thank you for your insightful comments. Your views are supported by research as well. An empathetic approach has been documented as having the best results in narcissists for affecting behavior in a prosicial direction. No one can change another person full stop. We can only change ourselves. HG has noted his ongoing efforts toward a new dynamic—highly commendable.
FYC He keeps writing about this change in his dynamic. Do you think it is possible that he has figured out by changing his reaction to certain situations that it benefits him? Not that he is going to change, only that he will change his behavior which has brought negative attention to him in the past? Which could actually make him even more dangerous?
Hi FM1T, I don’t know. Perhaps.
My feeling is he is newly inspired. Possibly by Shieldmaiden and his Grand Design. Or possibly because he wants less visible blow back while pursuing his interests and prime aims. It seems he values efficiency.
FYC I don’t know either. You just seemed to have a better grasp of where this was all leading then I do. Thank you for replying. 🤗
FM1T, You are very kind, but I do not. Only HG knows his own goals and desires. I have observed comments by HG to others that made me believe he is truly sincere for his own reasons. It seems like he wants to achieve something greater. At present, I feel HG is inspired and will pursue his new dynamic. I believe Shieldmaiden is a part of that inspiration or at least a furtherance of it. I only hope he does not become discouraged or frustrated sufficiently to abandon the new dynamic. We all endeavor change from a reward basis (even if the reward is pain avoidance). I wish HG, and all of the narcissists I know, could truly know their full value so that it would be unnecessary to seek fuel from others as a distraction from what they fear. The fear is a lie and begets more pain (even if the false self believes otherwise).
FM1T, I was distracted in other areas and was delayed in responding unintentionally. I appreciate and enjoy your comments.
FYC It’s ok! I always get distracted one way or another. I also wish they would see there full value. But we know that is something they can not do. At this time and forever, the only narcissist I wish good things for is HG! He definitely does not know how truly special he is! 🥰
Hi FM1T, I think HG may intellectually know how amazing he is in very many ways. After reading about gene expression, I’m more convinced that if loved and nurtured to know their inherent value, a child is far less likely to become a narcissist/psychopath. A puppy becomes a guard dog due to highly activated and trained defenses.
FYC, I sure hope he does! God he hates that four letter word! Oh well! 🥰
Thanks for your comments FYC.
It took me some time to work out we cannot change another person. Once we do, we will put our energy into more fruitful life experiences and pursuits. It is a skill to invest and direct your energies and time where they can be best used. Watering dead plants is futile.
Hi Sarah. I only learned this valuable lesson after making a sincere effort to positively change a familial victim narcissist many years ago. Needless to say it failed completely. Changing yourself is doable, but not always easy, yet so worthwhile.
Here here NA.
Sarah, that is interesting: ‘better let them maintain the facade’ for the sake of safeness of society. It is quite an assumption. I can see there is benefit in ignoring them on a personal level in case of an entanglement (GOSO it is). But as a psychiatrist? Why not be damned interested? AND damned cautious? If anyone has been trained at doing this, it’s them.
On the other hand, did you consider the opposite viewpoint: an intact facade will make it possible for them to keep destroying people behind closed doors? Without questioning since we are afraid of their malice?
What’s worse?
I don’t have an instant answer either. I think it is essential to reduce fear instead of raising it. What if the creature is only a narrative? If nobody wants to examine it (even HG doesn’t) then it has a very high potential of coming across far more dangerous than it actually is. We may take it for the devil itself, while the devil him/herself is actually ruining lives in another compartment.
“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.” (CG Jung)
Edit:
‘them’ in 1st paragraph = psychiatrists
‘ them’ in 2nd paragraph = narcissists/psychopaths
(srry for the confusion)
Hi Shesaw,
Thanks for leading us to some interesting debate and discussion.
I recognise my view may seem radical to some. I apologise if it creates unease or unrest.
A little bit of background about me may assist with an understanding of my viewpoint. My formal education is in law and psychology and I work in the government sector, so I have a particular focus on the impact of decision making on the public interest.
I concur with your level of concern for individuals impacted by narcissistic or psychopathic behaviour under the veil of the fascade. Yes, I was one of these victims and the impact on my health and well-being was significant. The fascade kept me in a situation I shouldn’t have been in for far too long.
The narcissistic fascade disguises abusive behaviour. However the concept of a fascade is not unique to a narcissist, it can be helpful to many of us. Empaths may also rely on a fascade to feed their addiction to a narcissist e.g., underneath he is a kind, caring person, he is ‘the one’ etc. Empaths may need this fascade because the reality of accepting a person is incapable of loving them is too painful to fathom. What would it mean for them, if a narcissist cannot feel genuine love for them, are they unlovable?
Any fascade serves a functional purpose. A narcissist’s fascade helps them to perpetuate abuse against others, this is a sad truth.
However, when I imagine a world where Narcissists and psychopaths do not attempt to maintain the fascade, I fear for everyone’s safety. The mid-ranger believes he is a good person, this belief leads him to minimise the level of destruction he causes by having a faux sense of consideration for others. The Greater is dangerous because he knows and accepts what he is and he is exceptional at what he does and yields great rewards from this. It is naive to think that therapy can change his level of toxic thinking, behaviour or the impact of this on society.
At times, harm minimisation is our only option as difficult to accept as this can be. Harm minimisation is the Greater being aware (through consequential thinking) that by modifying their behaviour they will comply with rules, laws and societal expectations. A Greater does not need to go to therapy to realise this, they are an intelligent beast.
The majority of psychopaths in treatment are those in prison. So, we give them a label and an understanding of what they are so they can draw parallels between themselves and more noteworthy or well known criminals. There is the danger that this label makes them feel more powerful as they understand why people have been so forgiving of their indiscretions in the past and continue to let the psychopath abuse them.
If we avoid, ignore and shelve toxic people their behaviours become ineffective and so do they. I don’t want to give these behaviours any more attention. We cannot cure them and research tells us we can definitely make them worse. Strong rules, strong boundaries, careful parenting and early identification of problems and concerns are important to our safety. I would argue when considering the broader public interest, so is the fascade.
Hi Sara, thanks for your reply. Sorry to respond in delay.
I don’t know much about law and psychology in public organisations, its interesting to read that your background is in that field.
Your distinction between private and public confused me. I found myself thinking in circles when I was trying to respond. I think that is because narcissism generally is about the confusion between private and public. Public politeness and courtesy hides private abuse/unnoticed malice. I can’t advocate for the façade for that reason. The façade IS the problem.
Your reply raised a few questions, if you would mind to enlighten me 🙂 :
– What kind of narcissists (mostly) end up in jail?
– What does therapy for narcissists look like (generally speaking)? What’s the main goal?
– Does law give up on narcissists (or maybe only on greaters) because ‘we don’t know what to do’? (I’m asking you this because your reasoning leads to GOSO as the only solution, since you state that therapy will not work and ‘society’ is best served by the narcissistic façade).
I would love to read your answers, but feel no obligation. I ask all kinds of questions without having or getting answers. It helps to keep an open mind and to never stop studying 🙂 Thanks!
Sarah and Shesaw,
This is a very interesting and thought-provoking conversation. Thank you both for sharing your views. I can see the merits of both sides.
Perhaps it is safer to let sleeping dogs lie, and to thereby minimise the potential harm of psychopathic behaviour. Who knows what will happen if we unleash the ‘creature’ and enable it to have greater powers?
The problem is though, that in general, most non-narcissistic people will not “avoid, ignore and shelve toxic people” if they don’t know or are not aware of the underlying reasons and dangers of narcissistic behaviours. So, knowledge is necessary to be able to “get out, stay out” and to become immune.
Once the knowledge is ‘out there’, who is going to draw the line in the sand and say, “you can’t go further than this”?. Once the knowledge starts spreading, it’s very hard to stop it. People ask questions and want to delve further and further into the subject in order to know more.
Overall, I agree with Shesaw. I think knowledge is essential to reduce fear and to increase logical thinking. I don’t see narcissists or psychopaths as ‘evil’ or ‘demonic’, however, there are many people who do. It is very difficult to educate people to think logically when they are convinced of such unrealistic beliefs.
Knowledge and ‘scientific’ study is necessary to open people’s eyes and reduce their ignorance and their ‘other-worldly’ kind of attitudes and to increase awareness. It is also necessary to reduce “emotional thinking” on a wider scale.
I agree that ‘facades’ can be necessary and helpful for social interaction and positive behaviours, but not at the expense of knowledge and objective understanding.
Also, it is not only their “facade” that enables narcissists to harm others. They actively seek power and once they have power, they are capable of being dangerous, even when people can see through their facade. In powerful positions, they are able to get their way regardless of the effectiveness of their facade. For instance, the CEO of a company, the parents of a child, the president of a country, the majority attitudes of a society.
Some of us with awareness can see through these “facades” before their power takes irreversible hold, but it’s the difficulty of making the fraudulently powerful look clearly harmful on a wider scale that gives them greater and ongoing power.
If it was easier to make such “striving for harmful power” transparent on a wider scale, it would be easier to prevent and overturn.
Sarah given your background do you think there is a “ spectrum.” For example not all psychopaths are killers although they do lie cheat and steal without remorse, they are selfish like Anti socials. All have a Compromised or damaged conscience. HG creates a sort of spectrum with low, mid, high but it not really a spectrum … the common thread seems to be zero empathy equally. Interesting too empaths don’t seem to fall in a spectrum of low to high empathy but variations …. I have often wondered if psychologists struggle with identification … if some of the traits fit. Others don’t. What is a Normal selfish cheater versus a personality disorder? What is the line? How do you yell if there is a total Lack of empathy exist. Ok Gacy, Bundt etc… obvious. But are there those just low on empAthy but not narcissistic? And how does one know 100%? HG yes. For example my suspected narc is highly empathetic with animals. He will sacrifice time, money and is a love devotee to his dog. I have seen him cry over the dog. But his “ friends.” He has discarded. People more than things need to be reclaimed and redeemed. I have found my husband to have definite mid range narc traits but I have seen empathy at least as to dogs and homeless. He gives always. His “ compassion” was very attractive to me. But I was not as lucky as his dog, lol
There is a spectrum. Empaths, empathic, normal, narcissistic and then narcissists. Narcissists are to the far right of the spectrum and then there is a spectrum within the narcissists.
I don’t have the answer either, Shesaw. I think that we need to take each N, case by case, in order to determine what should be done regarding the facade and the betterment of society.
I know this isn’t the same but I liken my restlessness to that of the Ns creature. I have learned that in order to tame it (somewhat) I must stare it in the face, feel it. Whilst running from it means a better outcome temporarily, welcoming it has helped longer term. But we are back at the beginning of the circle once again… Ns can’t change!. 😏
Well it turns out then it’s not the doctors stretching out your treatment to make more money. It’s their patient stretching it out by avoiding topics for the day. A long process taking one step forward and one step back. You both are doing a good job of getting there, patiently and understandingly, and respectfully.
You tell us, your readers, everything, but it’s anonymously. This blog must be good therapy for you too, like it is for us.
“…even when the doctors strayed into territories that were best left alone.” I would like to know more about these territories, the juicy parts.
“…I will be that which they think I am.” Nice line.
There are so many great intelligent women on this site! We have conflicting opinions, but I love you all!
marinathemermaid3
Like! All the smart people are here.
I like this one a lot.