The Weapon That Is Infidelity

THE WEAPONTHAT ISINFIDELITY

Infidelity is a given when you are ensnared by one of our kind. We know that it is not pleasant for you to think of us in the arms of another, conjoined in sexual congress as we do things with them that we have done with you and then we return to you. We know that infidelity is something that someone like you abhors. You have a strong moral compass, you behave in an honest and decent fashion and expect us to do the same. That will not happen. You place considerable belief in the question of trust and the concept of monogamy. Our infidelity will manifest in lots of different ways: –

  • Having sexual liaisons with third parties, some of whom will be strangers and others will be prospects who are looking to seduce;
  • Sending and receiving text messages of a sexual content;
  • Describing online what we want to do to someone and they to you;
  • Sexual liaisons with your friends and family members;

Although I know it is scant consolation to you since ultimately it is the breach of trust which causes you the greatest pain, we do not commit acts of infidelity because we want the sex. Admittedly, the physical sensation is enjoyable but that is not the reason we are repeatedly unfaithful. In terms of our attitudes to sex and especially sex with you, read Sex and the Narcissist. For the purposes of this publication it is sufficient to explain that when are unfaithful the sex is not the primary purpose. It is the fact that in your world sex is equated with love, affection and attraction and as a consequence it serves a purpose as a formidable weapon in our hands. We use it to seduce to we can additional fuel from third parties. We use it to seduce a new prospect who will provide us with fuel and will ultimately replace you. Initially we will be covert about our infidelity as we do not wish to damage having you as our primary source and therefore our need to obtain fuel from secondary sources through infidelity will remain covered up. Over time we will continue to use sex with other people as a means of gaining additional fuel but we will also be doing this to seduce your replacement. Eventually when we start our devaluation of you, we will be far less covert concerning our extra-marital affairs and often we will not care if you know or not. Indeed, we may even flaunt a mistress in front of you for the purposes of making you try harder and to provoke you so that you provide us with additional negative fuel.

Infidelity is not about the sex. It is about fuel. It is about control. Being unfaithful to you abuses your trust, it pours scorn on the vows we have taken and makes a mockery of you and what you stand for. It is abusive behaviour and to expect a narcissist to always be faithful is like expecting the tide to stop advancing when you tell it do so. It just will not happen. Infidelity is second nature to us because the weapon that is sex is just too good not to use to gain additional fuel. If there was another device that was so potent we would use it instead. The fact that sex feels enjoyable is just a matter of nerve endings and a pleasant side-effect. For us, sex is all about using it to further our aims; gathering fuel.

We will be unfaithful to you at some point. That is a guarantee. When we are first seducing you, we will be in the process of devaluing someone else leading to his or her discard. We most likely will have withdrawn sex from the victim who we are devaluing and be having sex with you as the new object of our seduction. This does not mean that since you are the apple of our eye we will be faithful to you. We will have intermittent sex with the person who is subjected to the devaluation either as a means of giving them a short golden period again or for the purposes of extracting further fuel by subjecting them to humiliating sexual activities. We will also be courting other prospects also as well as you and therefore there is a strong likelihood we will be bedding that person also. We will, when seducing you, maintain an image of fidelity since that is what you expect. If you are conducting an affair with us, we will assure you that our current partner (whom we are devaluing) never has sex with us, we sleep in separate beds and so on. We will bemoan the fact they never have sex with us in order to draw sympathy from you as the new prospect.

By contrast, we will triangulate you as the new prospect with our current partner. We will drop heavy hints that we are being unfaithful or even actively admit it in order to further the hurt. Our rationale behind this is that monogamy is for the little people and this does not include us. That would make us less special and we cannot have that. We are entitled to seek sex outside of a relationship because this is our inalienable right to enable us to obtain fuel. We feel no guilt in doing this, we do not respect any vows we may have given to remain faithful to you and we have no qualms about coupling with someone else. The reason for this is that we have to do it and in a perverse way, the only reflection on you is that you are not giving us the fuel we need. It is not a reaction to what you look like, what you do, who your friends are or what your interests might happen to be. We will of course use them, as a method of lashing out at you should you try and question us about our infidelity because as I have explained in Manipulated we will deploy blame shifting frequently when we are under attack. It is often the case that when a partner learns of the infidelity of their partner that they will scrutinise their own conduct.

“Is it something I have done?”

This means that you will examine your own behaviour and try to improve in some way because you will want to salvage our relationship. The fact of your addiction means you do not want to let us go. You will be mightily hurt and offended by our infidelity but you will try to find some way of fixing it because that is what you like to do. If our infidelity shows any risk of causing you to depart, we will hastily reinstate the golden period, as a Preventative Hoover, if you will, to stop you departing from us. Most of the time however, because of the way you are, you blame yourselves (often because we warp your way of thinking to do this) and you try to patch things over. Your need to resolve matters results in you clinging to us notwithstanding our fidelity. Indeed, in some instances you want to prove that you are better than the person we committed our infidelity with. You want to fight to retain us and ensure that our relationship triumphs.

We will also use infidelity as a means by which to control you and make you do what we want: –

“If you gave me more attention I would not go elsewhere.”

“If you put out more often I would not have to get it from someone else.”

“Perhaps if you hadn’t let yourself slide I wouldn’t stray would I?”

“If you thought more about me rather than yourself perhaps it would not have happened?”

“I won’t leave you, I should, but I will stay but some things are going to have to change.”

You are the victim. We have committed the transgression but other than when we fear you might leave us and sever our supply of fuel, we will not apologise but pin the blame on you. You will have been subjected to a succession of manipulation wiles in order to browbeat you and lower your resistance so that when we unveil our infidelity we use it as a method of getting what we want from you, namely more fuel and more control.

Infidelity is bad enough in the context of a “normal” relationship. With our kind it will always happen, it will always happen with many people and will do so repeatedly. It is a further black flag of abusive behaviour.

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391 thoughts on “The Weapon That Is Infidelity”

  1. Sarah Jane,

    “Add to that the paranoia and confusion that comes from being entangled”

    I hope you resolve your resultant paranoia and confusion.

  2. Sarah Jane,

    “Oh yes, I know I can be a (skip the next word if you’re easily offended) cunt at times, with or without reason. I’m wrong a hell of a lot, too – which pisses me off because the only true friend I have is my gut instinct.”

    I’m not as easily offended these days (thanks to my learning here) but thank-you kindly for considering my feelings with your preemptive warning.

    I sincerely hope that your gut instinct and you are good company for each other because here, on the blog, you have demonstrated a self-sabotaging way of reaching out to others. Or, as you have said elsewhere; you are your own worst enemy.

    1. Yes. Add to that the paranoia and confusion that comes from being entangled with a Narcissist. I am questioning even the most innocent of things now – and hoping that will fade with time, as I don’t think you’re (general) living life if you go around in an untrusting manner.

      Hope you’re well.

  3. WhoCares,

    Oh yes, I know I can be a (skip the next word if you’re easily offended) cunt at times, with or without reason. I’m wrong a hell of a lot, too – which pisses me off because the only true friend I have is my gut instinct.

  4. Sarah Jane,

    “We were with our narcs for years, not questioning a damn thing, thinking everything was rosy.

    At the time of that comment, I had just had enough of reading praise and NarcAngel just happened to be ‘there’ amidst the mind fog.”

    NarcAngel just happened to be ‘there’, at your moment of clarity in the fog? And the best you came up with was “fuck off?” What a wasted opportunity with such a good sparing partner…

    Did everyone else you’ve lashed out at here just ‘happen’ to be in the way on your road to ‘clarity’ and healing? Not many angry empaths feel the need to cut down others left, right and center to soothe their pain. What a huge sense of entitlement on your part.

  5. Knock knock… is the drama over? I heard somebody said “idiot”, is that true? Damn, I’ve been calling my narc motherfucker since I arrived, I guess I’m gonna burn in hell. Oh, well. Bring the hot on baby!

  6. Wow I don’t know where to comment. This thread is like the narc/empath hit we all needed after HGs 6 day hiatus. People are upset about the word idiot? There are so many disrespectful comments here toward HG. He’s been goaded, called names, his work has been disrespected and when he bites back he gets blamed. It doesn’t make any sense at all. It’s actually a very narcissistic way of thinking.

    1. It’s pretty clear that he can fight his own battles IMHO! I can sometimes fall prey to assisting the underdog, but the underdog is often more needy of help 😉

      1. Narc noob, I wasn’t fighting his battle just making an observation. I read through the entire thread and my head was spinning when I was done. A few of the readers are holding HG to a higher standard than they hold themselves. Some of these comments are very hypocritical. I’m like you, I tend to assist the underdog too, but not when the underdog acts like a bully.

        1. I understand. I was also making observations. Sometimes comments like *idiot* get ignored, other times people are quick to bring back the level playing field. I look on amused mostly but sometimes I am annoyed and feel the need to join in. For some reason whilst I am very grateful for HGs articles at the same time my gratitude doesn’t extend past that. I don’t feel the need to add extra pats on the back, neither do I feel eager to build him up further. Perhaps I see this as lowering the empath and building up the narc. ET? 😉😁

          1. Narc noob, if you look at the original comment HG is being told he is not human, being compared to a demon, accused his writings as being manipulation on a global scale. In return HG calls idiot bringing back the level playing field.

            I get what you are saying about lowering the empath and building up the narc in yourself. There’s nothing wrong with having gratitude at arm’s length. There’s also nothing wrong with expressing gratitude. I don’t see it as a pat on the back, I see it for what it is, gratitude. We express ourselves in a way we are comfortable, both ways being positive.

        2. Some of the things HG has admitted to on this blog could be considered inhumane. As far as being demonized, that’s probably something a narc could take in their stride, but not for us empaths.

          1. So because a narcissist can take it but an empath can’t it makes it ok? That’s like telling a child it’s ok to hit a boy but not a girl. The boy can take it so it’s ok.

        3. Mercy, as one of those commented about the “idiot” term, I was not stating that HG didn’t have the right or if it was correct or not. My comment was that it was a surprise for me. I even acknowledged that it was unfair of me to put him on a pedestal based on how I previously saw his responses. It is not that I expect him to behave better than me; I don’t. Only due to how I have seen him previously respond to insults did I come to recognize his style of response to these. When something different happens, it doesn’t mean it is wrong – it just means it is different from how I learned to expect a response.
          I recognize that many people will insult him due to their emotions. I never expected HG to act as a punching bag and just take it. I just saw that he had a style, unlike any I had seen from anyone. I don’t think any less of HG; the lesson is on me for remembering he is human and does not have a super power.

          1. Getting There, I actually saw your previous comment and thought you stated your opinion tactfully. It was a bit of a surprise from what we are use to.

          2. Perhaps you place him on a pedestal due to him liking to be on one!? Seriously though, I concur with your post and thanks for putting to paper my feelings.

            I think perhaps the part of me that is co-dependent can look to a teacher and see them as anything but human. They inevitably come crashing down though, when they show any sign other than super human. Usually this is when I paint myself black.

            I hear Dr Demartini echoing in my ear at times, people should not be on pedestals or in the pit, but rather in your heart (level playing field).

            Level playing fields are for empaths though, that is not the narcs perspective.

          3. Narc noob, there are times you have posted things I am thinking as well. I have to tell you I read them and think “thank you, Narc noob!” I wish I could push “Like” for comments.

            I had to look up Dr. Demitri quickly and will look into some of his work now as the little I saw seemed interesting. The mantra is great to not put anyone on a pedestal or a pit but to have a level playing field.

            I look at my normal friends and family and wonder if empaths, or at least just me, are not into level playing fields either. I allowed myself to be treated in such extreme ways. As much as I fight over and again for that level field with a narcissist, I now have to wonder about how much I truly want that if I stayed around/came back after the devaluation. If I truly wanted a level playing field, I would have left and never went back, right?

        4. Point noted, Mercy.

          I would like to see the same level playing field, as you have stated, for both the empath and the narc or any normal that comes here. I didn’t see it this round. It doesn’t happen often, thankfully.

          Given the nature of this blog people are sure to come and take the morale high ground toward HG, I am sure he is well aware of this. Once a reader puts time and effort into these articles they will see for themselves the evidence.

          If I reacted with ET on my first introduction here, and received a dressing down, I doubt I would have been strong enough to stay.

      1. Hi K, I thought about you when I commented last night “tone down the ET Mercy or K is going to call you on it”. It’s like I really do have a “Oh K” in my pocket haha.

        I see where blame shifting fits here but I need to go back through and find examples. Some of the comments “feel” like NarcSpeak and that’s when my thoughts start to blur. This will be a good way for me to identify it.

        1. Mercy
          Ha ha ha….ET happens! It is “Oh K” if you respond with ET sometimes; I have loads of it and recognizing it is half the battle.

          HG’s response to PP was appropriate and he has the right to defend himself or correct inaccuracies but marinathemermaid3 conveniently removed all culpability from Paisley Palmer by placing blame on HG and then she invalidated him by ignoring his response (gas lighting).

          Then she pulls an Absent Silent Treatment with this comment.

          marinathemermaid3
          APRIL 5, 2019 AT 19:06
          Ok I’ve had enough. Bye.

          HG responds:

          HG Tudor
          APRIL 5, 2019 AT 19:36
          Unable to object to the clear logic of my response. There’s no shame in actually realising I’m correct in what I’m stating rather than running away.

          If you read MM3’s response to the above comment, she is clearly deflecting and accusing HG of enlisting us to support him, which is an unfounded accusation.

          Who’s the narcissist?!?

          The hypocrisy in this comment below is stunning.

          Paisley palmer
          APRIL 5, 2019 AT 20:14
          Now, now HG! Name calling? Thats so Lesser of you!! I expected better from a Narcissist of your calibur.

          1. K

            If someone is an Empathy and they blame a Narcissist for nothing but the fact they’re a narcissist, (forget content for a moment) that doesn’t make them a gas lighter or a narcotics themselves. Get a grip.

            As I see it, an Empath is 100% likely to blame a Narcissist purely based on what they are. What an Empath doesn’t do, however, is side with a Narcissist over another Empath, regardless.

            Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

          2. An empath can readily side with a narcissist over an empath, it is called being triangulated. It happens repeatedly. Think about :-

            1. Narcissist
            2. Empathic ex (former IPPS)
            3. Current empathic girlfriend (Current IPPS).

            Number 2 approaches number 3 to warn her about number 1. Number 1 has smeared number 2 to number 3. Number 3 believes the smearing and sides with number 1 and indeed may go on to attack number 2 in some way.

          3. Yes, I understand that in a personal live situation, Mr Tudor. But surely it’s different circumstances here.

            You have stood in front of us all, whipped off your clothes and let the rabbit see the snake (I don’t know the proper saying).

          4. It’s let the dog see the rabbit but that means to let someone get on with doing something familiar to them. I don’t think that’s the right phrase for what you are trying to convey.

          5. HG, this same situation has happened to me. Am I correct in saying that an empath doesn’t necessarily have to be triangulated in order to side with the narcissist. Example being if I had 2 co-workers. One empath one narcissist. I prefer the narcissist idea over the empaths based on how it will affect work performance. Does this mean I have been triangulated? If so, am I wrong for siding with the narcissist if it is clearly the better choice?

          6. That can happen. You have to be wary of what is causing you to determine that the narcissist is the better choice as you may be influenced by emotional thinking.

          7. Sarah Jane this does not make sense to me. Yes an empath would side with a narcissist over another empath if the other empath is truly in the wrong. To say they wouldn’t is insulting to an empaths intelligence.

          8. I mean on this blog, with everything out in the open, as a general basic neanderthal instinct, character-wise.

            If there were two caves in front of you and rocks were going to fall by the entrance to both, trapping you inside, but you HAD to go inside one of them…

            Would you choose the one with an Empath who told someone to fuck off, or the one with Mr Tudor in (spending the rest of your days with this person in close proximity)?

            This is going to go tits up on me, I can sense it hahaha

          9. Without going too much into detail – let’s just say, for the sake of an argument, there was a hole in the cave just big enough to fit hotdogs through, (with onions) so you wouldn’t starve or anything.

            ?

            *Cue the Countdown music*

          10. Sarah Jane
            Wrong again and you have mistaken me for someone who gives a shit about what you think so put that in your pipe and smoke it.

          11. K
            It’s not limited to just this article. The lashing out without cause, baiting and subsequent victimization is a real snore. I’m left wondering if this is an example/lesson for demonstration purposes, and if so, how much longer we will have to endure it.

          12. NarcAngel
            I have noticed and there are no signs of abatement so I think we should bust out the popcorn for this one and watch and learn.

          13. K, I see where mermaid removed blame from Paisley and placed it on HG. So blame shifting doesn’t necessarily have to be one on one? It can be 3rd party?

            I see deflection in her accusations about murder and how he should be locked up. Actually I didn’t catch that at all at first. I just thought it was her being emotional or irrational. Im not accusing anyone of being a narcissist but I can relate to this now that you pointed it out. When I would fight with BS and he got irrational I would shut down or tune him out. It was the confusion he caused that would win him the argument because to me, it was pointless to argue with him when he acted like that.

          14. Mercy
            It is pointless to argue with a narcissist because we are either providing challenge fuel or pure fuel so shutting down and tuning him out was probably the best thing you could do in those situations.

            My mother use to blame me for my brother’s behaviour, nothing was ever his fault; it was mine and that is scapegoating and deflecting. I don’t think MM3 is a narcissist but I don’t think she is an empath either and I have noticed that apaths and empaths sometimes deflect, blame shift, invalidate or use STs. MM3 kept deflecting by pointing out HG’s behaviour and she even provoked foolme1time. It was interesting to see it play out.

          15. I agree k, there was alot to learn on in the last few days. I took some time to read through last night and saw some of the things you pointed out. It’s interesting how much can be learned through the comments.

        2. Good luck, Columbo. Before you go ma’am, could we have another round of teas please?

          #TheOfficeNerd

          1. Sarah Jane, there are no winners or losers on this blog. This is a place where vulnerability is the greatest measure of courage.

            There are several long term commentators here who notice when we are feeling vulnerable. They are no longer caught up in their own vulnerabilities because they have used their education, learnings at narcsite and personal resources to begin anew. They have my respect and appreciation.

            Your attempt to tear down the pillars of learning and community here and portray them in a negative light has been noted.

            You appear to have negative thoughts about many of us which leads me to my next question. Sarah Jane, are you okay? If you are not the likes of HG, K and NA (just to name a few) are people who will have your back and can help you.

            It’s okay to be vulnerable.

          2. Sarah
            Good points made. I’m honestly not here to troll or primarily start ‘arguments’ with any one. No, I’m not ok (thanks for asking) – that’s why I’m here. You can pretty much guess the details.

            I don’t feel comfortable in an atmosphere that could be cut with a knife. It’s nicer for everyone to not have that, especially under the circumstances.

            We are all a little bit of this and that on occasion – but it doesn’t wholly make us who we are.

          3. Sarah, this is very well said. I think alot of people forget that the long term commenters have a story too. Just because their pain isn’t raw doesn’t mean they haven’t been through hell and back.

          4. Sarah Jane, I think it is the highest form of self respect to admit our errors and make amends for them. You are right, making a mistake is only an error in judgement. It is adhering to mistakes when they are pointed out to you which demonstrates infirmity of character.

            I am sorry you are not okay. You are in the right place. No judgements here – I do appreciate it though when people hold up the mirror for me when I am not in a good space. This place holds us steady when we need it.

            I have found exploring the depth of what I read here fascinating too. I hope you stick around until you get through this. It sure takes a while to come home to yourself after a relationship with a narcissist.

            Sarah

          5. Yes, the blog is too moreish to walk away from right now. And re-reading some of the posts that resonate with your processing/mood is always helpful.

            I’ve left no stone unturned when it comes to the articles. I like the anticipation of the next article (episode) of the blog (your favourite series).

            And it is all very much appreciated – i’d hate to be thought of as ungrateful.
            Enjoy your day, Sarah.

          6. Sarah Jane, may I ask a question? Is it your personal mission to insult almost all of the regulars on NS? If so, congratu-well done!

            Why are you behaving in this manner?

          7. No, it isn’t, Renarde.

            Figure it out for yourself, you sound like you’re ballsy enough.

          8. You are being so very silly Sarah Jane. There are people who can and will help but, as far as I can see, you are just creating chaos and you WILL be called on it.

            Did you not get my logical fallacy link? Being ballsy has nothing to do with intelligence. But you are correct, I am both. But that isn’t what your post says.

            State clearly what you need help with and others will help. Even me.

          9. You are not ‘intelligence’ – you may be ‘intelligent’, but it comes it all forms. Example: I’m not academic, but I’m creative and good with my hands. There comes a euphoric feeling with each talent, survival aside.

            I appear to be developing an O.C.D for cleaning (spritzing areas twice, just to make sure/not being able to go up to bed until that piece of sock fluff has been put in the bin) since my NC has been firmly put in place. Do you think I am subconsciously trying to cleanse him from my mind, body and soul, or trying to take my mind off him too vigorously?

            Other than that, Renarde, I’m just browsing aimlessly tonight.

          10. Ta Mercy – I got a sense that NA was being portrayed as someone who challenges others to prove that she matters. I see it as quite the opposite! NA has earned my respect because she respects others (and because she quotes Shakespeare in a battle of wits). I recognise her ability for disagreeing with someone while still remaining respectful. The narcsite veterans show up and listen to those who need it. I value community here.

    2. Mercy, I couldn’t agree more. Generally I like to stay above the line with my commentary, however I am going to give myself a hall pass and make an exception to this rule. The real question that needs answering is who left the whole bag of idiots open?

        1. I just saw all this banter. I have the week off work so lots of idle time. Does it matter who is what? The only thing that matters to me is that if someone is under duress due to entanglements and they find a place here then so be it. There are plenty of personalities here—mine is quite a mess and I will freely own it. If a narcissist ends up here would it hurt anyone is all I wonder. I’m open to why it would. HG doesn’t permit the exchange of personal information anyway—so we aren’t going to “meet” each other. (And I was late to that rule and own it—I was in a complete fog for months and didn’t read whatever I was supposed to read!) Anyway—For the most part this is absolutely invaluable education and however someone processes it or improves is in my opinion excellence.

  7. Paisley
    Please don’t insult HG like this. I have not been on the blog for some time but when I joined last year , everything HG wrote rang true.
    Everything.
    He was so precise , his explanations of how a narc behaves were eerily accurate in my case and most likely for all his readers..
    Without HG I would still be stuck fast.
    He is not a demon.Even though I don’t think HG would mind that nickname, he is a man and he has helped me.

    Thank you HG

    1. You are welcome Kiki, thank you for your observations. You are correct the label of demon does not bother me as it is negative fuel (the slightest dollop) but as ever it is unfounded, knee-jerk inaccuracy that must be addressed and that is what I do – succinctly and logically.

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  9. So many “flying monkeys” arround here supporting HG!! It’s great to be able to look to the narcissist world from a safe window. I really love it since curiosity is what took me to this point…

    1. Butterfly, they are not Lieutenants ( flying monkeys) because they are independent of me and have not been recruited by me to serve my purposes. Rather, what they do is form an opinion of me based on the evidence they have gathered from an independent scrutiny of my work. Your own comment is an opinion which you are of course entitled to make but it is an inaccurate one because

      1. Just because somebody supports me does not make them a Lieutenant;
      2. A Lieutenant has to be specifically recruited (either instinctively or through calculation) by the narcissist. Not only has that not happened with those who support me, you have no evidence to demonstrate this and therefore you have made an assumption and one which is incorrect.

      You are correct that it is an advantage to be able to look at the world of the narcissist from a safe window, which is precisely the purpose of this place and why so many do support me.

        1. But they are not my creations so unfortunately for you, you are wrong once again.

          I would recommend you desist with your attempts at provocation because you are not succeeding and you are providing material which evidences your contradictory nature.

          1. It’s not provocation, it’s an opinion. You see it as such because you’re a narcissist and it doesn’t coincide with the cool runnings of your blog. If those opinions cease to exist, it will just be a perpetual celebration of Tudorness. We should never stop questioning, especially seeing as you’ve told us what you are.
            The 5 rules are neither here nor there because your pudding contains ingredients that are not taste-proof.

            Yes, your work is magnificent. That’s obvious – and I’ve never read anything so far that captures my interest to such an extent. That bothers me purely because I can’t run from the truth that I wanted so badly. You should understand that you will also be used as a metaphorical punching bag by many Empaths who read your blog. I have no idea whether this is a part of the healing process, my ET, or a genuine, indirect dig, at my NEX being channeled through you.

          2. Your opening paragraph is incorrect.

            You can form an opinion but do so on evidence. For instance if somebody writes
            “I do not like you because I have read about how you have hurt former girlfriends.” then that is an opinion which is based on evidence.
            If somebody writes
            “You only operate this blog for fuel.” That is an opinion also but it has no base or credibility because the evidence demonstrates that
            1. The fuel obtained from this blog is small and of inferior potency (my book Fuel explains why this is the case); and
            2. There is evidence that I operate this blog for different reasons apart from fuel so EVEN IF this blog gave me a lot of fuel, it still is not the only reason for operating it.
            Thus the opinion is of course an opinion but is not well-founded.

            My opinion is that you are being provocative. This is based on evidence of your provocative comments to me and to others and thus is a well-founded opinion.

            I have no issue with being used as a metaphorical punch bag but I only accept this being done based on evidence (witness the first example above) and where the punch bag is sought in circumstances where there is no evidence then I will correct people. It is about addressing the inaccuracy, that is all. I play the argument here, not the person.

          3. Mr Tudor, I can’t argue with that. I bought Fuel several months ago. After reading it, back then, it was something that I can only describe as an eye and mind version of sticking my fingers in my ears and singing la la la, as I didn’t want it to be true. But it is.

          4. The opening paragraph was incorrect, wasn’t it. But what are your thoughts on the paragraph about your work being magnificent?

          5. NA, I say “Bye Felicia!” to the Omarosa wannabe, contrarian provocations. Your commentary is respectful and often adds much needed levity!

          6. E&L
            Thank you. I hate to turn my attention away from someone who has admitted that they want it, but she appears unable to focus and offer anything of value to hold my attention or engage me further.

          7. NarcAngel,
            You appear to be a strong, intelligent person, with some logic to your opinions. If I commented a 5,000 word essay instead of that ‘fuck off’, describing in detail my thoughts, you would still be NarcAngel. Maybe a NarcAngel with a more detailed response yourself.

            Empaths have knee-jerk reactions, too.

          8. Sarah Jane,

            IMO using HG as a metaphorical punching bag is part of the healing process. The way he writes used to trigger me all the time so I kept my engagement with him to a bare minimum. Just today I posted about him shelving us when he disappears without a word for days on end. Those are just two examples of me substituting HG for my narc. But it doesn’t happen nearly as often as it used to. When you’ve started to heal, you won’t feel so much hostility towards HG or commenters you think are coming to his defense. As he says, focus on the argument and not on the person.

            I don’t think it’s right for everyone to pile on when your ET is clearly high.

          9. SMH,
            Yes, that makes sense. Thank you for sharing your experiences from the result of you being here. We are all at different stages with our ET, but Mr Tudor is edging us to drop that to over-come – but isn’t it more important to be with someone deserving of the ET, instead?

          10. Sarah Jane, There was a period when I felt the way you feel too. I was defending ET – there’s nothing wrong with it, I don’t want to be all cold and logical and have to give up my ET!! But I was understanding it all wrong. I think you’ll see that there is a place for both ET and LT. All HG is teaching us is the difference and how important it is to understand that difference. I don’t approach HG with ET anymore. I am just grateful to him and that is based on logic – he has freed me from the shackles of my narc through helping me to understand narc logic and ET. Ironically, that has allowed my ET to flow properly rather than chaotically. It is properly directed towards those I am close to, not towards someone (narc) who is sucking the life out of me. Give it a chance. A lot of what is on here is banter and affection, teasing and jokes. Maybe some people have transferred their attachments to HG. I have not (but for the occasional wobble) but I am still here enjoying myself and learning. I get as much out of chatting with the other commenters as I do out of engaging with HG.

          11. SMH, I’m going to respectfully challenge you here. In the case of ET being high in SJ comments I’m on the fence. It is clear that empaths handle confrontation in different ways. Some will speak their mind and defend themselves and others will wait until everyone has hugged it out to join. I will use you as an example. You are one to speak your mind and will welcome challenge. When you feel something is wrong you state it. You and NA have had words in the past. Your personalities clash and you both stay clear of each other. That is an example of respecting each other’s boundries even though you may not care for each other. You don’t hijack one of NAs comments by randomly telling her to fuck off. That’s exactly what SJ has done, unprovoked, and has done to other readers. Is this ET? Or is this an attempt to purposely start chaos? When empaths with high narc traits comment, it’s still clear they are empaths. When you make strong statements I still see empathy in your comments. In the comments on this thread by SJ I question empathy exist. 

          12. Utter bollocks Mercy about thinking I’m narcissistic. You don’t know jack about me and are obviously only focusing on my fuck off posts.

            Leave any diagnosis’ to Mr Tudor and don’t give up your day job.

          13. Sarah Jane, I did not diagnose you I said I question your empathy based on your comments.

          14. Mercy,
            You insinuated (in your mind) that I was a narcissist, to provoke me. But written down, in front of everyone, you’re ‘merely’ just this and that-ing it aren’t you. Ok.

          15. Sarah Jane, no I actually had no intentions in provoking you at all. I would speak directly to you if that was the case.

          16. Mercy
            Sort of. To be clear, (to those reading who are not aware), SMH previously requested that I not interact with her (not the other way around) and I agreed to respect that, but she did interject with her negative opinions about me and attempted to escalate a misunderstanding that occurred between MommyPino and I subsequent to that. It now appears she has not dispensed with anti-NA campaign by choosing to support Sarah Jane’s random (and without giving reason) attack on me, while adding that others are “piling on” by addressing her behaviour. I doubt it appears as coincidence to anyone. I thought it only fair that I be able to voice that given that your response indicated there is fairness in recognizing boundaries on both sides. I don’t find that to be the case.

          17. NA, Please. I am respecting your boundaries and mine. If Sarah Jane had said fuck off to anyone I would have done the same. You could have waited to see how I responded to Mercy but you jumped in without reading what I had to say. I am not hiding anything, I am not being devious, I am not out to get you and you know I have also defended you. Okay, I will shut up now and not interact because it’s pointless. I thought we could have a thaw but we simply do not understand each other, so let’s leave it at that.

          18. SMH

            Evidence:
            You inserted yourself into a misunderstanding between MommyPino and I by telling her that I was giving a back-handed apology and that you knew that she could clearly see this. And then telling her that you had problems with me also.
            Is that respecting boundaries? It appears more like recruiting and interference to me.

            Evidence:
            You say to Mercy that you read our conversation (Sarah Jane and I) but don’t know who started it? I’ll clear it up: I made a comment to someone other than Sarah Jane. She responded with: NarcAngel: Fuck (and I cannot stress this enough) off. Funny that your empathy and defence went straight to Sarah Jane and not to the person attacked. Then when people did address her about her behaviour you referred to them as “piling on”.

            You did not like something I had to say about your situation early on and thats fair, but you then accused me of having an agenda and repeated it to others. That is a false perception on your part. I do not. People can hate me and some do. Recruiting others to join you seems unnecessary and a bit beneath you.

            Having said all that (because I think it’s fair both parties get to air their view and you have certainly made yours known of me), I still have no issue with you interacting with me, but I will respect your wish that I do not with you. In fact I have “liked” several of your comments. I read that you have been able to control your emotional thinking more and I’m glad that has helped you and that you enjoy yourself with others here. If that is not yet (or ever) extended to me I understand.

            NA

          19. NarcAngel,

            I am not recruiting anyone!! I know you think I am being disingenous and/or you are hurt, but I honestly do not spend my time here trying to create drama. I am drawn to things I find interesting.

            I did not accuse you of having a vendetta that I can recall. Why would I when I don’t think you have one? I only recall talking to you directly. Yes I did make that mommypino comment but it was minor, I was in a flippant mood and (sort of) apologized. I am sorry again if that helps. I also defended your letter to the narc. But this bean counting is not helpful!! It is just frustrating.

            I saw Sarah Jane basically screaming for help. I am sorry that she went off on you but that really had nothing to do with why I spoke to her. She went off on lots of people and I did not mention you to her directly. I only mentioned you after Mercy weighed in (I don’t mind Mercy – no worries). I was not trying to get SJ on ‘my’ side or anyone else for that matter. I just saw something in her that I could relate to, and felt that I understood what she was reacting to (which I think was more HG than you per se – the blog has been very busy today). But it seems if I speak to her then I am automaticaly speaking against you?? Not true. It is not about you. It is about her and why she is so reactive.

            SJ has started to tell her story and maybe I can help her out of the hole she is in by putting HG’s lessons and my own experiences to work. You also try to help people. Your way works for some and not for others. My way works for some and not for others. Maybe some people respond to both of us. We are both ‘friends’ with plenty of people on here so clearly many can accept both of us. We just don’t seem able to accept each other.

            I appreciate that you’ve liked some of my comments. Thank you. I cannot tell because I don’t use WordPress. This also means that I cannot ‘like’ comments. I can only respond. I don’t respond to yours because there are too many misunderstandings, I fear you will misread me or disagree with me and then hold it against me, or I cannot crack a joke because you will take it the wrong way as we do not have the same sense of humour. You are also very serious and I am really not so serious. My whole purpose in life is to have fun. I am even laughing as I write this – not at you but at myself and the position of arguing with an anonymous person on a blog about narcissists.

            If you want to try openly interacting again, it is fine with me. Up to you. But let’s respect that we are both very strong willed, have different personalities, different experiences and different approaches. And let’s start by not criticizing each other.

            SMH

          20. SMH
            HG does like inaccuracies. Neither do I.

            Do you really not see it? You keep perpetuating this myth that WE have a problem with each other.

            SMH: I thought we could have a thaw but we simply do not understand each other.
            NA: says who? I never said I didn’t understand you. You asked me not to interact with you because you did not understand me or my motives/agenda.

            SMH: Yes, I did make that mommypino comment but it was minor. I was in a flippant mood and (sort of) apologized).
            NA: So you acknowledge not respecting the boundary YOU set but then announce it as minor. You justify it by saying you were in a “flippant mood” and no, you did not apologize for interfering (not that I was looking for one). You responded to mommypino (when she stated she hated to be wrong but acknowledged there had been a misunderstanding), that you didn’t really remember all that much about it as you had been swamped with work but that you also hate to be wrong but that you were half right and half wrong). Is that what you refer to as an apology?

            SMH: Your way works for some. My way works for some. We just don’t seem able to accept each other.
            NA: i am interested to know what this differentiation in styles looks like to you. I think we are more similar than you care to acknowledge. Who decided I am unable to accept you? Not me.

            SMH: I don’t respond to your comments because there are too many misunderstandings. I fear you will misread me or disagree with me then hold it against me, or I cannot crack a joke because you will take it the wrong way as we do not have the same sense of humour.
            NA: Funny, I thought you were not responding (aside from when you did) because of YOUR request we not interact. What fear? I have disagreed with many people in my time here including HG and I still interact with everyone and don’t hold it against them. You are no different. Show me where you have made a joke and I have taken it the wrong way please. You have indicated in a comment previously that you enjoy my “zingers”. That indicates you may be of similar humour in some cases (no one is in all cases).

            This has to be my favourite though:

            SMH: You are also very serious and I am really not so serious. My whole purpose in life is to have fun.
            NA: WTF??!!! Are you really saying that I am not known for having a sense of humour? Also, insinuating that my purpose is not to have fun?

            Then incredulously you end with:

            SMH: Let’s respect that we are both very srong willed, have different personalities, different experiences, and different approaches. And lets start by not criticizing each other.
            NA: Yeah, I was, and remain clear that we are both narcissistic but not narcissists and that our experiences may be somewhat different (not entirely). I’m not sure our approaches are as different as you seem to think. And then you end by perpetuating the myth that we criticize each other. You have been critical of me in comments not only to me but to others and in indicated that fully by asking me not to interact with you. Show me where I have done this to you and I will consider it.

            Can you still read all of that objectively and not own up to your part in perpetuating this myth that WE do not get along?

            My door has always been open to you (and to everyone) and remains so. This is my way of showing you there is always another perspective besides our own.

            NA

          21. NA, I’m not going to go back through every interaction and every comment – I don’t have the energy. If you cannot let sleeping dogs lie, cannot start over, and need to pick apart everything I write, then I guess it is best that we continue to not engage. I don’t feel angry. I don’t feel hurt. I don’t feel anything, really.

          22. HG
            My apologies. I meant to write HG does NOT like inaccuracies. Big difference

          23. NA, I did witness the comment with mommypino. I was trying to tiptoe through a touchy subject but it was unfair that omitted it in my last comment. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

          24. Mercy, No, I agree with you. I have had words with NA and we do stay clear of each other. Maybe that will change one day but that is why I am trying to see where Sarah Jane is coming from. I did notice their whole conversation, of course, but I am not on anyone’s side and I don’t know who ‘started’ it. I just think that I can see in Sarah Jane the same anger that I myself have had in the past so it is my way of trying to help. HG and NA have both triggered me but I am also willing to defend both of them if I see something that I think is unfair (eg when everyone piled on NA after she published her Letter to the N). I see what I see. Maybe I will be proven wrong about Sarah Jane but when people feel like they are being attacked, the claws can come out, so it’s worth asking why someone is communicating the way they are rather than making assumptions about what sort of person they are. Sometimes it is just oil and water – a personality clash – but sometimes it is because someone is feeling particularly raw.

          25. SMH
            I like you because you speak a lot of sense in my opinion. And you also possess a high amount of empathy and understanding (that is clear).
            Your knowledge seems very balanced and well-rounded and you understand. You understand with an open mind even though you were hurting/have been hurt. The apparent lack of this in others via their style of articulation will obviously cause questions. Sometimes, it just looks like they’re trying to impress Mr Tudor and forgetting their own true beliefs.

          26. I think you mean, I like you SMH because you are being nice to me, whereas other people have questioned me so I do not like them!

          27. It’s not like that, Mr Tudor.
            I just think there’s an air of superiority amongst the words of some and IMO no-one is better than any one else (apart from you, of course). We should be here in union with one another.

          28. Laudable sentiments Sarah Jane, so what is behind you lack of unity in some of the comments you have made to people? Do you know what caused this?

          29. I’m not used to being praised (for anything really), so I’m finding myself awkwardly and uncomfortably questioning your nice comment as a possible sarcastic one. But if it’s not – thank you.

            My father is a Narcissist and my mother is (from what I now gather) a co-dependant Empath. Your blog has opened up some apparent wounds of past abuse, what would have otherwise appeared like a ‘normal’ childhood to me. I have only known Narcissists outside of my family life, which I have now escaped from.

            I’m not sure if I’m seeing/feeling some of that abuse that they caused, along with my father, through the words of some people via this blog and lashing out wrongfully.

          30. It was neither nice nor sarcastic, it was merely a straight forward question.

            Your reply is noted. Thank you for responding.

          31. HG
            Thank you for asking what is behind the lack of unity in Sarah Jane’s comments and what she thinks has caused this. I am truly interested in her response but did not pose it myself for obvious reasons.

          32. NarcAngel
            Do you like butter on your popcorn? This thread just keeps getting better and better.

          33. K, I think I’m going to take a seat today too. I’m still holding on to hope that 2 of the participants will make peace.

          34. I am feeling very peaceful, Mercy. I am more curious now about what HG will say about logical thinking. I don’t care to get into heated arguments on this site or worry about personalities because it’s not the reason I am here. I am here to learn about narcissistic abuse.

          35. Mercy
            Perfect, there’s plenty of popcorn. This thread just has some Clash of the Titans action going on and it will work itself out. It’s all good.

          36. NarcAngel
            True, but there have been and always will be other Titans posting here and, don’t forget, sometimes the demigods, mortals, gorgons and krakens can clash, as well. It is quite fascinating to see it unfold.

          37. Sarah Jane, HG reminds me of my own narc (Excel). I find both to be funny, curt, and sometimes infuriating. The difference is that HG is a Greater and Excel a Mid-Ranger, so really a world of difference. It took me awhile to realize that – at first HG seemed just like Excel, so I steered clear of him if I didn’t have a direct question. But now I trust HG because I see the difference.

          38. Understandable SMH. And I can relate to that. He reminds me of mine so much, just more refined and intelligent. Truth is a major thing and I can’t stand it when blatant lies are being told behind reptilian smiles – it sickens me.

          39. Yeah, Sarah Jane, I know the feeling. But like HG, mine mostly hid behind a keyboard when he was manipulating me. Only once did I confront him with a lie. It is funny to think about now but he denied it and dodged it, thus lying about a lie.

          40. lol HG. Just like my narc, you pick up the smallest thing about yourself and respond only to that. I meant the keyboard part with respect to you, not the manipulating part.

          41. Hi Lou, HG doesn’t mind if we go off on tangents every once in awhile (thanks for putting the comment through, HG). The party was great, thanks. Best one I have thrown (I do it once or twice a year). Lots of people from different parts of my life and different parts of the world, but everyone made new connections – I like putting all my different friend groups together and making the world a smaller place. One of my very old (British) friends is hard to get on with, and she even managed to antagonize a few new people! hahaha. The main downside was that it was cold so the garden was pretty much out. I am laying low this week – shopping, hanging out, no work and lots of sleep! Hope you are having a good week!

          42. SMH, I am glad your party was a success. I like your concept of making the world a smaller place and also give your difficult British friend the opportunity to antagonize new people. Lol.
            My week has been rather busy so far, but it will get calmer soon. Tomorrow I am having lunch with a friend I have not seen in a long time and I am looking forward to it.
            Enjoy the rest of your week, SMH.

          43. Lou, Hahaha. Everyone loves her but no one can stand her. Iol. Funny but sad. I learned awhile ago to only go to the movies with her and not try to talk about anything too deep. Have a wonderful time with your friend and a relaxing rest of your week!

          44. There’s lot’s of entanglements over keyboards, these days – especially on dating sites. People can slide over to their desks or sit on their ‘phones unshaven, with bird nest hair, sporting a onesie and ‘cop off’ with someone or just merely flirt. It’s the future! It lowers the pregnancy, STD and embarrassing rejection rates (ha).

          45. Sarah Jane
            No one is better than anyone else here. I certainly don’t believe that I am if I am one of those you are referring to. If you perceive that to be the case you could question or state what specifically makes you feel that way if you really want to explore and expose that. Behaving like a shit-slinging monkey only exposes your behaviour.

          46. No thanks NA, I think I’ll just accept that not everyone gets along here.

          47. lol HG. I just think her ET was high and she got triggered.

            Sarah Jane, I learned a lot from HG and from the other people here. It pays to work on the logical thinking. There are all sorts of personalities, some of which I am not very good with. I tend to be impatient, for instance, and also self-absorbed. I am aware of my own shortcomings so maybe it is that introspection that helps. I also thought I kind of instinctively felt where you were coming from (maybe I was right – I think so), which is not the case with everyone here. Some people I feel I can relate to and some I cannot but I think that is true of everyone.

            It is funny but it is like a small anonymous community here – not really a cult because it is easy enough to leave by closing your laptop (I only come here on my computer – phone would drive me crazy). But because there are so many different people and posts, there is something useful to everyone, no matter what their situation. You can also just read and not comment at all, which a lot of people must do. I wasn’t hesitant about commenting because I had been on another blog for awhile (one of those Empath Support groups or however you described empaths in one of your previous posts) but this is only the second blog I have ever commented on. Also, I was desperate and astonished, so I had to say something!

          48. SMH & NA, ugh I have a feeling HG is going to let you guys hash it out before he lets my comment through. I’m sorry to both of you for bringing up a sore subject. SMH you know I value the friendship we’ve formed on this site so please don’t take offense. I see the clash in your personalities as being due to the fact that you both are so much alike. SMH I think you might have a smidge more hardheadedness in you. I’ve seen NA leave the door open on several occasions in case you want to bury this. I hope you guys do because you are both respected and have alot to offer.

            You guys can tell me to fuck off if you want. I don’t stay mad.

          49. Mercy,

            I don’t stay mad either and have no reason to tell you to fuck off. I hadn’t noticed NA leaving the door open – maybe because I don’t use WordPress – not sure. But I tried to open it yesterday so hopefully NA and I will have a good outcome.

            It is good you brought this up, actually, because I am pretty oblivious to any underlying tension on the site or anywhere really – I kind of dive in where I want to and ignore the rest (also because I have had a really busy few months work-wise and many demands on my attention, though I am now on a break).

            I am very capable of wiping things and people clean out of my life, especially if I feel backed into a corner. Kind of like a narc leaving a trail of destruction and stepping right out of it. That is not such a great thing about me but it is more because of my limited attention span or quick shifts of focus than because I deliberately set out to destroy anyone (my attempts to destroy Excel were an exception and came after years of abuse). It might come across as hardheadedness but as I said, I did not notice NA leaving a door open. I don’t hold grudges and can be a softie too. I am an optimist and always think everything will turn out just fine. Excel knew a lot of this about me instinctively, which is exactly how I got ensnared!! He just overstepped and miscalculated.

          50. Mercy
            Haha. I don’t anticipate ever saying that to you (or anyone else here). You did nothing wrong. I only adressed it because it has been mentioned other places that SMH and I “do not get along” and I did not want that myth to become truth merely by having it repeated. I had no issue with SMH. She asked me not to interact with her. I complied. I believe part of the problem is as you have pointed out – that she is more like me than she cares to acknowledge. My door was never closed. It has never been closed to anyone. I just wanted that clear.

          51. NarcAngel,

            A couple of things:

            I am not more like you than I care to acknowledge. Yes we are both hardheaded (if that’s what Mercy said) and we are both smart (probably) but beyond that, I hadn’t really thought about it so how could I be refusing to acknowledge it? None of us knows each other, so how could we even know if we were alike?

            If I do think about what you are like, I’d say you are more direct than I am, more explicit, quicker off the mark, with more organized thoughts. I also think you are more sure of yourself, more judgmental, and more hurt by what has happened to you in your life than I am by what has happened to me in mine. That is all I can say. I don’t know what you do for a living, how old you are, how you look, how you wear your hair, how you dress, how you carry yourself, what your tastes are, how you sound, who you love, what your interests are, who you hang out with, etc. In HG controlled cyberspace only HG has a voice (plus some very tanned legs and pictures of his travels, food tastes and SM’s hair).

            There are tons of things I do not know about you or anyone else on here, so I find it very odd for people to be making judgments about what other people are ‘really’ like when they only have words on a blog to go by. I can speculate but I suspect we would all be a bit taken aback were we to match the pictures in our heads with who people actually are deep down. The real life dynamic would be quite different from what happens on here.

            I can identify people I enjoy interacting with but I wouldn’t go so far as to analyse why that is the case. Mood I am in, mood they are in, the topic, a joke, a moment’s connection when we are in the same headspace, similar experiences – could be any number of things. There are people I’ve had extended conversations with and then never engaged again for no particular reason. And then there are people I have engaged with superficially over and over. And then there is everything in between.

            If you want me to say that it was me who decided not to engage with you, I will. It was me! I made that decision for reasons that I was quite clear about but I will add that it was a long time coming. You were very judgmental – not supportive – when I was trying to decide whether or not to tell IPPS only a month or two after I arrived on this blog, so I was wary of you pretty much from the get go.

            You wouldn’t have known that my sister was dying at the same time because I didn’t discuss it until long after it happened. But that is an example of not knowing what someone else is like or what they are going through just from this blog. I did do what was best for me. I switched narc to the off position by telling IPPS. I was then able to focus, fly home, be my sister’s caregiver, and spend the last 10 terrible days of her life with her and my now orphaned niece without having to worry that narc would contact me or I would contact him. But I think you decided that I was someone to be taken down a peg or two because I contradicted what you believed to be right. You were not such a saviour to me.

            Tomorrow I am celebrating with a party that I have made it to the age my sister had just achieved 6 months before she died. I too might be dead in 6 months or maybe sooner – maybe by my NC anniversary in a few weeks! (No, I am not suicidal for anyone reading this.) The last thing I care about is what you think of me or who I am. I am not here for you. I am here for me.

            One more thing – you are way more popular here than I am. I don’t mind because, as I said, I am here for myself. But I simply do not understand why you care that I don’t engage when you have plenty of other company.

          52. SMH
            More alike in posessing more narcissistic traits than some is what I meant. It shows in your comments (apparently to others as well so that is not a slight). Other than that, as you point out – I don’t know, and those things (jobs, hair, tastes, etc) I don’t think matter I’m sorry that you felt I was judgemental in my response to your request for opinions on telling your Narc’s IPPS, but let’s be honest, wouldn’t anyone telling you other than what you planned to do feel judgemental? You are right that I did not know about your sister, (just as anyone else here when we all comment). I am sorry that you experienced that and I relayed that to you in a comment subsequent. I did not think you needed to be brought down a peg or two. That is your perception. I questioned that you may have had some denial about your motives in telling IPPS. You could have said that was not the case instead of carrying this grudge that you have not until now admitted to. I don’t care if you engage with me. I only care that people do not get the idea that it was mutual and therefore think that if they engage with me and we do not agree that it would result in blocking. It will not. I genuinely hope you enjoy your party and enjoy many more years to come narc free.

          53. NA, When I explained that I do not want to engage anymore I did say why. You and someone else can say the same thing but I will not react to them the way I do to you – so yes, I can take criticism. You seem unable to however because you are not accepting that the way you express yourself, at least to me, irritates me and I do not come here to be irritated by another poster. It doesn’t matter what you write – it is how you write it (something I have said before). It is not a question of a grudge. It is a question of simply realizing that it doesn’t matter what you say – which is exactly what I told you when I asked that we not engage. If someone said the same to me, I would leave them alone because I wouldn’t know what is going on with them or if my narc traits were triggering them or if deep down I was in fact trying to give them a hard time for my own twisted reasons. But I can usually sense when someone does not want to engage with me, so it normally does not get that far. If it were a real life friend and I cared (important point there, the caring part), I would take a look at myself, and we could hash it out in real life, but you and I are not real life friends, and this blog is not real life. Obviously I am an exception here but I am an exception everywhere 😇.

            Anyhoo, let’s not take ourselves too seriously. The party was fantastic, I am in a good mood, everything is peaceful and calm (but for a possible hoover attempt yesterday) and there are flower explosions everywhere.🌺🌸🌼 I hope things are going well for you. Peace out.✌️

    2. I, for one, am NOT HG’s Lieutenant. And neither do I perceive others to be.

      The majority of us are independent, free thinkers.

  10. Can’t let it go. H.G. By everything that you’ve admitted to you should be behind bars. You’ve let us all glimpse into the inner workings of a sociopath, but I still cannot join the ranks of your army just because you’ve been honest about your crimes. I can’t believe that you’ve enlisted women who would be your very victims in your daily life to support you in your endeavors. It truly would be like Clarice Starting letting Hannibal Lecter off the hook. “I just can’t do it anymore “.

    1. MM3
      To suggest that people are “enlisted” rather than merely differing in opinion to yours, have the intelligence, understanding, and ability to decide what they believe and their level of involvement here is insulting. Add to that that you are apparently the only one intelligent enough to see it clearly for what it really is and continue to bang on your pot to warn others………well, the grandiosity is staggering.

    2. Hi Marina

      We are not HG s army .
      You must remember many of us here have been deeply wounded ,it is natural to cling to HG and maybe treat him a bit like the mysterious anti hereo.That is not a crime or anything to be ashamed of.
      It does not keep us stuck moving from one narc to another because HG does not allow that to happen.He does not flirt or encourage adoration .
      If it happens it’s the posters own issues and responsibility.

      HG is very firm with us and keeps the boundaries strong between his posters and himself ,in no way does he abuse that trust.

      To understand it you must have been involved with a real narc.
      Yes damage has been to many of us Ladies clinging to HG is not a crime ,it may help some to disassociate a bit from their real life narc.

      1. Kiki, Very well put! If there was ever such a thing as a safe narcissist, for me, that would be HG! He keeps logic in place and is always ( unless you insult him) professional, both here and also with his consults. So many of us have been hurt, some beyond repair. We can’t trust anymore, simply because when we do we are crushed by lies and deceit. HG is someone we can trust and not be hurt by, clinging and learning from him keeps me and my heart safe. If some do not agree with that, so be it; that is there opinion in which they are entitled too, however that does not give them the right to attack those on here that may desperately need HG to keep them from reaching the end of their rope.

  11. HG – Paisley is saying the same thing my x did. I told him I had consulted a narcissist and that he had warned me about him….my x said “Maybe he is getting fuel by telling lies to everyone and splitting up families and couples”? that was a typical narcissist statement. I have found HG to be enlightening. He helped me to think rationally and get away from verbal, mental, emotional and even physical abuse for nearly 30 years. So I am grateful.

    I was just going to ask one question HG…..

    My X said back in 1993 that during a study weekend away for work – that he stayed in a girls room, someone he did not previously know, (who was also on the course) because there was no other room available. ( I can hear you laughing!!!) And he saw her in her underwear, but he slept on the settee and swore that nothing happened, he would have had NO room to stay in if it wasn’t for her kind gesture. Now, my X SWORE he would never, ever ever be unfaithful to me as his dad had been unfaithful to his own beloved mother early on in their marriage. He had many faults he said, but he would NEVER be unfaithful. Do you think that in this case he was telling the truth? And if he wasn’t – why bother to tell me?

    Thanks HG for listening!

      1. He Swore he could never, ever be unfaithful to me. Never.
        But I always had doubts.
        He must have got off on that for years.

        thanks HG for replying.

  12. SMH, That would explain why the Master did not correct either one of us! 😊 They truly are that magnetic, I always find for myself addictive is the better word for me. This last ( please be the last) one was the most addicting, but then so was his school. I think I would of probably would have done anything for him. 😪

    1. Yup, FM1T, Master knows. And I agree about the addiction but I went into Act II fully aware because we talked about it at length and he really went out of his way to persuade me (that was the magnetic part). We had not seen each other for 8 months when the affair started and had barely been in touch for half of that. When we saw each other it was as if no time had passed, which I found weird. But now I understand that to him I was simply shelved. Never in the clear!

      1. SMH, I find it strange though even for us (the victims) when we do see and talk to them it’s as if no time has passed and if we haven’t found HG by this time usually this is when ET comes out and all we hear ourselves saying is “ oh! It must be true love” or “Everything happens for a reason” or this one, “ We have been connected from the very beginning “ we feed right into it! 🥰

        1. FM1T, This just happened to me today. A friend of mine, with whom I cut ties back in 2011 because she was more interested in communicating with my husband rather than me, just texted my husband an hour ago. My husband and I married in 2010. We all went to high school together and she could have given a rat’s ass about my husband back then. I am not in the least bit “jealous” of her attention towards him, it was the asking him questions about me and the lack of interest in communicating directly with me. For example, if my husband and I had written a joint email, only my husband was acknowledged in the response, she never gave me her cell phone number, only a land-line home phone number, and if I ever called she only called back when she felt like it. If my husband called she picked up immediately. No hard feelings, I’m positive of that. Just the need to hear my own internal conversation validate my response, which was to let go of the relationship. But, when that fucking text came in, I swear…my first thought was…she must miss me. Now that is some pathetic ET!!!

          1. E&L

            A warning here; there is something odd going on between your husband and that ‘friend’. I may be wrong but something doesn’t smell right.

            I would do some digging if I were you…

          2. Renarde, Thanks for the heads up! This is the kind of behavior that resulted in me walking away from the “friendship”.

        2. FM1T,

          Exactly. I did that so many times (I left him five or six times). It feels so right blah blah blah. I hadn’t a clue. I even told him towards the end (my final escape, though I hadn’t yet found HG) that we must be in love with each other! lol. He didn’t deny it of course. At that point, we had not seen each other for 6 months but he was hoovering me the whole time, which I also thought must mean that he missed me.

          Other people would tell me that too!! Oh if you keep finding your way back to each other it must mean something profound. In normal-land we would be correctly reading the clues but in narc-land we are not.

          Story: a friend’s narc dumped her very abruptly and cruelly over a year ago. A year passes and this guy comes creeping back into her life. She finally lets him see her and he proposes marriage!! To her credit, she turned him down but she is trying to ‘normalize’ the relationship, even though both her therapist and I have warned her over and over.

          A few days ago she said ‘I’ll be at your party and S (the narc) says he’s coming that weekend so I am bringing him.’ I said oh, that’s nice (I’ve never met him). Yesterday she tells me that he had something come up and can’t come. All seemingly normal except she added – ‘I am alright – it doesn’t bother me.’ I didn’t respond to that part but of course it bothers her or she wouldn’t have said it. He already has her re-ensnared and she’s only seen him once in the past year!! He texts, calls, makes plans and breaks them, etc.

          I cannot say anything because she is still in that space where she thinks hers is a special case. But none of us is special to a narc.

          You are not alone!!

        3. Hey foolme. What’s your take on H.G. Ice cold with Alex? Are you ok with our hero ruining some poor girl’s career? I guess it’s ok because you know, he’s provided us with so much insight. To me it’s similar to torturing animals for human welfare. It’s an experiment, so no matter if some living creatures suffer, it benefits the whole yes?

          1. MM3, To answer your question, He will always be my hero! I read this post many times! I didn’t care about her career then and I don’t care about it now! I knew what he was when I started reading his work. To be surprised by his behavior when he tells everyone exactly what he is makes no sense to me. He is an elite greater! The most dangerous narcissist out there and yet your surprised by the things he does? Please no one is that naive!

        4. FM1T
          I can’t stand myself when I fall into that “we’ve been connected forever” etc BS. And even though I’ve made great strides in managing my ET, that type of romantic, emotion-driven thinking will still bubble up from time to time 😡

  13. FM1T and Bubbles, Just to be pedantic and to get myself on this thread, ‘enrol’ is British English and ‘enroll’ is American English. You are both correct :-).

    As for infidelity, Excel never said he was not sleeping with IPPS. In fact, at the beginning of the affair part (which I refer to as Act II), he was quite open about it. It wasn’t great sex with IPPS, but it was sex.

    I didn’t really care at first but then I began to find it gross that he was putting his cock into (at least) two different people. Man-whore. I was about to leave him for that reason only (no ultimatums or anything – I just found it yucky). But then we had an argument about something else, which became the beginning of the end – it was all part of coming out of the fog.

    For the record, this is the only time I have knowingly ‘shared’ anyone sexually. That is how magnetic he was (to me).

  14. HG, can empaths have Borderline Personality Disorder? Do you think Borderline PD at its core is similar to narcissism (Cluster B)?

  15. Interesting thoughts on the demonic business. This is just a part of life that needs understood really. I’m quite melancholy in reflection of how impactful this has been for me/others. I’m exhausted from it and the education offers a reprieve. If I entangle with another narcissistic partner I have one person to look at and blame. No one else has it spelled out so well for the signs to be so apparent.

  16. Below comment for H.G.
    The “idiot ” comment sounded like a bit of narc rage rearing its ugly head. Is that against the rules of your blog?

      1. I’ll actually not insult you today but do better.. After much discussion with a dear friend and a “forensic” non-embittered review of the male/female narcissist debate that I ranted about previously I’ll concede that you may be correct. Perhaps there are just as many female narcissists. Just lots more cold fury and facade management happening I think.. Don’t let it go to your head!

        1. Claire, Not go to his head?! Yeah right! I have a bridge I’d like to sell you in NYC. 😂

      2. I’ve been reading your blog for about 6 months now and one of the things that has kept me coming back is that you’ve always exercised restraint at insulting your readers or retaliating in any way at negative comments. I think I myself have called you a criminal and a monster. I had a deep admiration and respect for your self control in this regard, especially as you are a raging sociopath. Now…not so much.

        1. Believe me, I was restrained and as you acknowledge I’ve maintained restraint in the face of provocation and insult. I do so in the instances I explained in my earlier reply.

          Answer this – do you think it is acceptable for someone to insult me without foundation or a misplaced foundation?

          Answer this – am I not correct in regarding someone as an idiot for hurling around insults which are not based on evidence? That strikes me as idiotic behaviour. I didn’t just state what I stated without a basis.

          1. Yes ladies and gentlemen, that previous comment was made without one misspelled word! It was also all grammatically correct! Hear Hear HG.

          2. Yes I do. You have portrayed yourself as a complete sociopath that is actually capable of murder if you think you can get away with it and it suits your needs. You have a post wherein you ruined a gymnast’s career by hiding ice that she needed to recuperate so she could continue her competition. You deny you are a demon then? I’ve never heard anything more demonic in my life and I’ve always thought your army of empaths was a bit beyond weird. You ARE, by your own admission in devastating detail, our enemy.

          3. It’s different when you’re the one being attacked repeatedly and usually as proxy for someone else as opposed to just reading about it and thinking it’s a one off or they have thick skin so it’s no big deal. It can be cumulative. Usually it isn’t a big deal, but sometimes you just think: who the fuck are you that you can just make up anything you want and hurl it and not expect a response? All the while calling yourself an empath and thinking you’re entitled to pull the superiority card and while exhibiting the very same behaviour you are accusing this person of. Especially when you feel you are offering something of yourself that most seem to have the intelligence to appreciate is offered with good intention. Everyone has a day when they are less receptive to having bullshit slung at them for just being who they are because no matter the affliction – we are all still human. That includes narcs. Sure, vent your spleen indeed, but don’t be shocked if you receive a response of equal force.

          4. To add to my previous comment:

            If you hurl shit and attack someone and don’t receive back a response of equal force, instead of feeling entitled, consider it your lucky day and know that you could have.

          5. HG, I can’t speak for MTM3. As for me, I was surprised you added the “idiot” part in your comment. It is not a matter of “correct” or not; or even if you have the right to assess and comment in whatever fashion you deem as this is your blog. My surprise is that I have seen many comments insulting you, to include by new individuals who are reacting emotionally, and I have been impressed with how much above reacting I have seen in your response. It has been impressive as it is not what I would expect of a narcissist, a normal, or even empaths; and I have recognized that I would probably react to some comments you receive in a way where “idiot” and other comments would arise. While I may read some of your comments and think “ouch, that could have been said nicer,” I recognize that although you had the right, you didn’t “stoop” to the words many of us could expect in a similar situation from a non-HG person. It was like some super power you had. The “normal HG” response to these kind of comments, of which I have grown accustomed, is either silence or everything except the “idiot” part where it still expresses a logical challenge to the comment you received.
            Maybe I have missed some of your other comments similar to adding “idiot.” It was unfair of me to previously assess the type of responses you made to similar emotional comments to you and put you on a pedestal.

          6. do you recommend HG in using that type of phrases when we are in the middle of a smear campaign?
            Like telling the others: “Answer this – am I not correct in regarding someone as an idiot for hurling around insults which are not based on evidence? That strikes me as idiotic behaviour. I didn’t just state what I stated without a basis.”

            Great phrases

    1. So it’s permissible for me to be insulted without foundation but it’s wrong for me to question such behaviour in a logical manner and thus conclude someone to be an idiot? If Paisley responds accepting it was an emotional outburst, he or she hasn’t read my work, realises what was written was not based on evidence but was a knee jerk response I am perfectly content to recognise he or she is not an idiot and it was a misplaced, Ill- founded emotional outburst.

      Do not come to my blog insulting me and doing so without having read my work and based your view on the evidence. If you do, you can expect a forensic take down. Believe me, I was restrained.

      If you write, ‘I’ve read your work and it’s clear you can be a nasty individual at times HG and I hate you’ that’s fair enough, you’ve reviewed the evidence and formed an opinion.

      If you write ‘I’ve read your work for some while and it’s the best information avail although I’m glad i will never meet you HG as you’re horrible at times’ again, that’s fair enough.

      Do not come here insulting me when it’s clear the work has not been read or understood.

        1. Unable to object to the clear logic of my response. There’s no shame in actually realising I’m correct in what I’m stating rather than running away.

          1. I Have read your work and you Are a sociopath capable by his own admission of murder if it suits you. Is this illogical? This is not emotional thinking. I don’t know you from a hole in the wall but the things that you’ve confessed to are criminal. I guess the other empaths on this blog consider your behavior ok because you provide them with insight, but I don’t condone your behavior. In reality, you should be incarcerated.

          2. MTM3

            The Chuckle Brothers were supposed to be incarcerated, but they had their own TV show.

            A little UK tid bit from me to you…
            To you, to me.

        2. marinathemermaid3
          I have been here for quite a while and I have read plenty of insults and baseless accusations leveled at HG and he has shown more patience and restraint than some of the empaths that have posted here.

          Did you read Paisley Palmer’s comment? Put yourself in HG’s shoes. How would you like it if someone wrote that about you without even getting to know you or what your blog is about.

          Paisley Palmer comes across as a fucking fruit loop.

          1. Put yourself in his shoes?? Lol, he’s a narc and wouldn’t care two hoots! Really?

          2. Narc noob
            I am an empath so I am wired for decency and understanding
            and I can put myself in another’s shoes so I can see his point of view, unlike you and marinathemermaid3. Also, I don’t discriminate or bully others because they are disordered, something they have no control over and didn’t do to themselves because that is akin to ableism.

          3. I read that one comment and reacted to figuratively wearing Ns shoes. I have now read your whole post realise that jumping in like that wasn’t such a wise idea.

            I am not sure how you can accurately determine whether or not I am an empath based on this post?

            We as empaths know that it hurts to be called crazy or mentally unstable.

          4. Narc noob
            It is perfectly fine to jump in and comment but it is also important to try and see someone else’s point of view.

            If an individual, irrespective of personality, makes an incendiary or inaccurate remark/assumption then they should expect flak, feedback or a correction. I wasn’t surprised by HG’s use of the word: idiot and I understand why he used it. PP’s comment reflected poorly on her and PP shouldn’t dish it out if she can’t take it.

            Based on the contents of MM3’s comments, I don’t think she is an empath, however, I think you may be an one.

          5. Just to follow up with K’s comment and re: putting in shoes.

            I completely sympathize with the idea of someone merely making assumptions about another without reading one’s work, as HG described.

            This has happened to me on many occasions, in fact. I am an artist myself with many strong opinions. I’ve gotten better at tempering my emotional thinking via reading this blog in addressing how to handle it.

            As example, a while back on a FB post I remarked that a certain female artist was not any good. Mediocre technique, just a display of suffering, and no real ideas.

            I had someone call me a ‘female misogynist’ which pissed me off, and to top it off, I was now ‘unsympathetic or unempathetic’ to said artist’s suffering.

            Had this person replied with, ‘I disagree because her form blah blah and there is more than mere suffering blah blah…’ and given logical reasons I would have disagreed but could accept that.

            But this person used emotional thinking to imbue malice into me simply because I don’t recognize or see what she sees in this painter’s work.

            Sorry, but I am not going to give a free pass to what I see as ostentatious attention seeking simply because someone suffered.

            This happens a lot online and it is manipulative. Then when you call said person out on such, they sanctimoniously play the victim and claim you’re the bully (or the female misogynist). What nonsense.

            I am not saying that is what happened here, just telling my story.

            Anyway, long story short. I have gotten better at curbing my emotional reactivity b/c I know that is what this sort of person wants. In this case, this individual wanted to seem like the ‘hero’ for calling someone out on something that wasn’t even part of the equation.

            I have watched how HG has handled matters and tried to emulate that, as strange as it sounds. Just to the point, professional and if needed a slight sting.

            In the past I have used words like ‘idiot’ out of reaction to someone’s shit. HG is still human (sorry HG but you are) so he reacted as such.

            No need to leave, Paisley. No one is against you. This is by far the kindest and most welcoming blog I have ever come across, but that doesn’t mean that disagreements don’t arise on occasion.

          6. Your own response is valid with regard to the unmerited observation made by another elsewhere. I am pleased you find the blog constructive, that is its aim. People will disagree, that is fine, but they should do so based on evidence, not inaccurate broad brush assertions. When the latter hammers, HG brings the hammer!

          7. K
            Paisley, Narc Noob and everyone else who’s paying attention do know him – from this blog and all that he tells us about his behaviour and thoughts in his private life. If a random Empath decides to read just ONE (although I would recommend all) of his articles tomorrow, they would know him too. Like Narc Noob pointed out – he couldn’t give two hoots about your expressional displays of empathy towards him. He fights his own battles at a greater rate than a thousand ton skip full of Empaths could all put together.

            K and Mr Tudor in a tree…
            Kay
            Eye
            Ess
            Ess
            Eye
            En
            Gee

        3. Mermaid3
          You don’t have to pull the delicate flower and leave. You have to admit you’ve had some pretty strong opinions and comments here yourself. Tomorrow is another day for everyone. Your choice.

      1. I have read your work. I own 2 of your books. Of course I had foundation for my opinion. Which was just that. An opinion. You say I hurled insults at you but by your own admission throughout your works, your kind seeks to do nothing but hurt and destroy. Is that not the same purpose of demons?

        “What is the purpose of demons? Satan and his demons are bent on the besmirching of God’s name in the earth and the destruction and deception of all those who love and serve Him”

        Again, by your own admission, you deceive through the seduction. The only goodness you bestow is deceptive. It is only to ensnare. Then you proceed to destroy through manipulations and mascinations.

        Am I incorrect in stating this? Have I misread or misunderstood your writings? If I have and stand to be corrected, then please, by all means, set me straight

          1. Ha ha! I was just saying to Mercy that you would most likely take that insult in your stride, it’s just the empath that takes it to heart.

          2. HG, you are not demonic or evil. You may choose to behave in cruel and abusive ways to gain negative fuel, but that is not driven by an ‘evil spirit’ or a desire to besmirch God. It is driven by narcissism and psychopathy. End of story.

            I do not mean to annoy anyone, but I take issue with inflammatory terms like evil, demonic or satanic. They serve no useful purpose. They also diminish personal responsibility and deflect the actual reason narcissists do anything–for themselves!

            Although I attempted to logically appeal to Paisley on her own grounds (scripture), in truth, I think we are better off not entertaining such ridiculous parallels.

            Thanks in advance for your consideration. I apologize for my frustration.

            As always, you are very much appreciated.

  17. Hell HG,

    Thank you for this post. I think it is important for victims to understand the behavior is never personal (although…. it could not feel anything but).

    I have a question. Is it possible that a narcissist doe NOT have a IPPS? I ask because the (self confessed) narcissist I dated worked very hard at trying to hide all of his conquests. The only reason I knew there was others was because he dated a co worker of mine (also a narcissist) for a year before he dated me, I only know about that relationship because she would often tell me details about it, but he worked very hard at trying to conceal it from everyone at work (including me) until I told him that I knew because she discussed it often. He then triangulated me with her and milked that for all it was worth. But there was never anyone he posted publicly, it seems as though he was content to have a few IPSS on the go at once. Is this common?

  18. Hello HG,

    I have been researching this subject for months now after leaving a self confessed narcissist. I have found your blog very helpful, but this post in particular has really struck a chord with me as it reaffirmed my mantra that what happened… wasn’t personal. This is going to be the fate of all of his victims. Not just me.

    I do have a question though. Is it possible for a narcissist to NOT have an IPPS and just a bunch of IPSS that he uses? My narcissist has worked very hard to leave no evidence of any of his relationships via online or otherwise, he works very hard at keeping everyone hidden. I could provide more detail to this if you need but it was something I always found very interesting.

    Thanks

    1. Some narcissists do not have an IPPS :-

      1. Greaters who use a range of IPSSs instead. It is rare to come across such an arrangement;
      2. Mid Range or Lesser who have no IPPS but have a NIPPs instead; or
      3. There is an IPPS but you just do not know – this is more common than people realise.

      1. This is my situation my narc i feel is a lower greater or on the cusp of being a greater only bc of his awareness of his npd. He has no primary. Only secondaries and this im 100% sure of. I could see how this suits him bc he doesnt have someone looking over his shoulder constantly or have to commit to the way you would a primary.

        1. Chihuahuamum, In my experience, mid-rangers (maybe upper mid) are able to have an IPPS, live with her, and evade her surveillance. Mine sure did.

          1. I dont feel my narc is a midranger for two reasons …one he hates sympathy or pity. He never wants to be the victim and two bc he knows damn well what he does and takes pride in it.
            I agree many types of narcs can have secondaries and hide it or lie about it to the primary.

          2. CM, Mine liked sympathy and pity. He knew there was something wrong with him but not what it was. Definitely a MR.

          3. I think mine is a MR victim, because pity plays o’plenty, has the smirks of calculations, but will apologise to benefit himself.

          4. SJ,

            Yup, yup , yup. A lot of us on here have thought that perhaps we were with the same person.

            I have figured out that for a long time every man I have been involved with has been either a narc or had strong narc traits, and many pity/victim traits. I was married to Lesser N (not my son’s father), Dead N died last year, I dated Irish N all last autumn, Work N I was recently drawn to, and Excel/MRN was there through much of it. He is also the most damaged and most important to me. Hmmm. That is about me, not about him or them.

            Part of this personal puzzle: every single one had kids but only daughters. No sons in the lot of them. I only have a son (apart from niece, but that is recent). I think there is something about my having mothered a boy (not a narc but he was once a toddler and a teenager) that led these men with only daughters to be attracted to me and me to them. I have seen no theories about this but men with only daughters are now a huge red flag for me.

          5. Hi SMH
            I’m not so sure it’s anything to do with what genders they produce, as the narcs I’ve been involved with have either had mixed or just boys. My MR (the one that’s fucked me up) doesn’t have kids. But the father of my kids is a narc and he has a kid from a previous relationship who has Aspergers (and so does my son). My daughter is an Empath – both have the same father.

            I am left wondering if the father to my kids has Aspergers AND my MR does too. It’s confusing to me because a child diagnosed with Aspergers (a professional isn’t going to diagnose them as a Narcissist) is more innocent and you don’t want to label your own flesh and blood as being one. But as adults (people we’re involved with and talking about on here) it’s harder to distinguish as there’s similar qualities in Narcissists and Aspergers/Autism.

            I don’t think it matters to me – it’s just always going to be a shock that I ignored the red flags and that I’ve been living with and around people who just don’t care the same way as I do.

          6. Hi GTGM,

            I don’t think it’s anything to do with what they produce – heck my mother is a narc and she had both boys and girls. I was just trying to describe a personal dynamic between me and these men, and the mystery of why it seems to be the same pattern over and over.

            One of MRN’s kids (grown now) has ‘social relational’ problems. He never gave it a label but it fed into my ‘it must be Aspergers’ narrative.

            On the other hand, my son is totally normal but he has an autistic half-brother from his father.

            It’s all pretty mysterious but yes, shocking to realize that all the red flags are there and that people really do have fundamentally different brains!

          7. I do wonder if a narc can be a greater but not an elite? Cant remember what was written about this. My narc is not an elite hes more a follower of an elite.

          8. Hmmm. Good question, CM. Mine was not elite or Greater. He would talk about his boss(es) occasionally as if they controlled him and he was competing with them. I am guessing that an elite would not do that. He was not conscious of his narcissism and so not a Greater. I’d say an UMN.

      2. Empath101,

        Mine had an IPPS that I did not know about for many months. He might have had other IPSSs, though I’ve no idea when he would have found the time. I also intimated that I would out him to IPPS if I found out that he’d slept with anyone else.

      3. This is a strange (?) question—what happens if someone is so flagrantly unattractive to secure a primary source? Could this explain a lingering depression and lack of energy. I know a man that is very overweight and he is just chronically depressed, although when he did secure a woman on two occasions he devalued them terribly.

        1. Remember, narcissists come in different schools and cadres and a physically unattractive narcissist can secure a primary source either from a family member or if an IPPS from a victim that is not bothered by physical appearance (see Sitting Target for the different hunting grounds where these victims would be found).
          If the individual you refer to is a narcissist, his lack of energy and depression may result from a fuel crisis because he has been unable to secure a suitable primary source (having lost one) and his inability may be in part hampered by his lack of physical appeal but there will be victims available for him (possibly less in number, but there nonetheless).

          1. HG,
            It is interesting, what separates your work from the others, is the different schools and cadres. Therefore, I was able to unlock the patterns for my own personal relationships, and why I failed at that. I didnt realize at the time, but I dated narcissist all throughout my 20s and early 30s. Instead of identifying that they were narcissist, I would bounce back and forth between cerebral narcissist and somatic narcissist thinking that I found someone different than the last person, therefore they will not hurt me. The truth is, I didnt get to know these narcissist well enough before I put them on a pedastool, and didnt really know myself enough. Right now, I know my daughters father was the last Narcissist I had a “serious relationship” with. He is very somatic, with a little elite. Therefore, my addiction to narcissist, has me gravitated towards cerebrals since. Right now, I am working on a few projects, that puts me in the area of cerebral hunting ground as well, and I know to proceed with caution with my interactions, even if I they are the most brilliant and clever person I have ever met.

      4. On #3 – There is an IPPS but it’s hidden

        Too fucking true. In the latest twist of fuck my life, turns out that PN had a IPSS on the go for 5 years. She believed he was single. When she found out about the IPPS (Mum) she disengaged.

        I mean, five years! Wow!

        Cunning bastard.

      5. My MRN definitely didn’t have an IPPS, unless it was me – but I fit the bill as a DLS. A DLS who took up most of his time and energy, with how often he stayed here, called me etc. I just never stayed at the place he shared with a male friend because we had more privacy here.

  19. Paisley,
    You are entitled to your opinion about HG writings, and your theories about what Narcissist are. I do not agree with the idea that Narcissist are demons reincarnate, but I did read a book once that supports your claim, and i thought it was highly fascinating. Nevertheless, most signs for how to heal from narcissist points towards self healing, no reaction to narcissist, and what HG calls “ceasing the power”. If HG’s work isn’t for you, than there are other writings, healing modalities, and theories out there. It’s your life, explore on your own.

          1. “Know” he does not correct you at every chance he gets FM1T! 😉

            By the way; it’s lovely to see you being more talkative on the blog – and seeing your personality come out ♡

          2. WC, He must of been half asleep when he missed that one! Shhh 🤫don’t tell him. Thank you, I go in spurts at times on the blog depending on how I’m working, some days I only have time to read the comments very quickly and I don’t have time to write. Honestly though I prefer to just follow along most of the time. 😘

          3. WC, I usually just type and hit send. I never reread what I’ve written. 🤣 Even if I did I’m sure old eagle eyes would catch something wrong. 🙃

          4. Half asleep? I’m unsure FM1T…perhaps he ‘missed’ it purposely to prove a point?
            Or perhaps he is busy and distracted in anticipation of some *fresh* fuel during his wordly travels? Who knows…

            “I go in spurts at times on the blog depending on how I’m working, some days I only have time to read the comments very quickly and I don’t have time to write. Honestly though I prefer to just follow along most of the time.”

            Yes, it is the same for me, at times, but I do love the intelligent conversations here! And the company ♡

            I am going to have to go into ‘lurk mode’ myself; just have too many very practical matters to sort out in my life at the moment.
            But I’ll probably be following along and checking in when there are new articles, etc.

            Take care FM1T!

          5. Dear foolme1time,
            English classes filling quickly, enrol now, be quick, don’t miss out
            🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          6. *Sigh* Nooo, not that time FM1T…after we get ‘your/you’re’ sorted out for you…and for Bubbles’; ‘here here/hear hear’…I’m not sure there’s any help for me; unless there is some auto correct assistance that can help my stumbling fingers and brain work in better unison – until there is a mind reading device for that: *as well…

            You did mean the omitted word, right FM1T? (See; can’t even trust my own brain these days)

            Omitted words are my downfall when braining too fast.

          7. FM1T,

            “Unfortunately for your last question, I forget?!”

            I can’t remember either…neither..??
            Okay, HG – where are ya now?

          8. Pah! ‘braining’…as in; overworking the poor little hamster at the wheel upstairs…not ‘braining’ as in hitting someone over the head…education all around, huh?

          9. Dear foolme1time,
            I’m his new town crier for the English class
            Hear Ye, hear Ye
            🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          10. foolme1time
            I am open to being corrected, because of the blog I finally understand the difference between effect and affect and use it correctly, most of the time.

          11. K, You are the best! Being corrected in a constructive way is something I have had to work very hard at recognizing! I’m trying however and feel as though HG realizes that. At least I hope he does? To many years of so much abuse and negativity flying at me has caused my skin to grow thin. 🤗🥰

          12. K,

            Ha – ‘effect and affect’…it bugs me if I don’t get those correct! I literally have to say “Hey, psst…hamster – stop your spinning for a sec and tell me which is the right option here?”

            No wonder we get so bogged down so much – why do we even care?! Especially when talking to empaths – because they’ll let us off the hook…

            Seriously, it’s just another way that we are our own enemies.

            Narcissists aren’t alone in being their own worst enemy!

          13. K, I’m trying to find a post anywhere from October 2015 to I believe December of 2015, where HG and I had are first dance. I also think this might of been the first time I actually commented to HG instead of just following along. How would I go about finding it? 😊

          14. I’m afraid you make it too easy, nothing to do with my being an ass. I’ve kindly avoided pointing another one out!

          15. That’s very kind of you Sir! Go ahead make fun of me all you want, I’m really quite use too it now.

          16. K, I still have to look those two up or I rely on Word’s grammar magic to catch it for me.

          17. SMH
            I still have to double check the meanings sometime. Effect can be a verb or a noun and the same with affect. Also, then/than and in itself/in and of itself are both tricky and the Rule: i before e, except after c is another royal pain-in-the-ass.

          18. foolme1time
            Type: narcsite, into the Google bar, then type the words you used in the comment into the search bar and hit enter.

            It should pull up the article(s). Enjoy the search!

          19. WhoCares
            Ha ha ha…effect and affect were always a pain-in-the ass until I came here. I am not a grammar nazi but I try to make an effort to be clear, however, I auto-correct as I read so I miss things like: the the dog is black and white or take it to to the dry cleaners.

            Then there is: too, to, two, there, their, they’re, heir, hare, here, hear, hear!

          20. Lol, You and HG are a comedy team. Love you guys! HG makes a more accurate and funny editor than auto correct! We all make typos and every hamster stumbles on the wheel. It’s all good!

          21. FYC, Yes we are the next Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis! Guess which one I am? HG makes a better Martin anyhow with just his alcohol consumption alone! 🤣🤣🤣. Glad we could bring a smile to your face!😘 Next show is at? I don’t know? When is the next show HG? 🙃😝

          22. lol you guys! Who’s on first? Must be HG because he’s always on first (unless he hits a homer). Oh wait, that’s Abbott and Costello…and of course a baseball joke for an Englishman. I know, lame.

        1. Dear WhoCares, foolme1time and SMH,
          I can very much relate to your ” hampster wheel ”
          My brain races ahead so much, what comes out of my mouth is mostly shorthand and sometimes reversed
          It obviously attracts narcs 🤣
          Thank you SMH… I didn’t know that, I was brought up British English and we spell it “enrol”
          I have so much trouble with auto correct I need another auto correct to correct the first one
          At least we have our own fabulous private English professor to give us free tuition …..ooooops…. I shouldn’t have said that, he might start charging.
          🤣
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Bubbles, I have to write in both British and American English. Sometimes I rely on Word to do it for me, sometimes I decide to wear my British or American, depending on my mood and what I am writing, and sometimes I confuse the two.

  20. I have heard these three

    “Perhaps if you hadn’t let yourself slide I wouldn’t stray would I?”

    “If you thought more about me rather than yourself perhaps it would not have happened?”

    “I won’t leave you, I should, but I will stay but some things are going to have to change.”

    ( in a less eloquent way) a few times; once when I caught him messaging sexual content and other times during a rage when I stopped performing to his expectation. Through your teachings H. G. I have identified him as a mid-range narcissist. I finally know what he is and I am done with him. Of course, it helps that I just found out the real reason why my youngest son broke off contact with me for the past three years. I won’t bore you with the details suffice it to say it is unforgivable. Thank you.
    R.S.

  21. Demonic. Your kind are not human. I am convinced you are all demons incarnate.
    You.. writing your articles and books as though you expect us to trust what you say as the truth. Its just manipulation on a global scale. Its completely contradictory. You are empowering the same people you admittidly seek out and targer? That’s so very UNnarcissistic of you.
    I call bullshit.

    1. Have you actually read my work? Have you understood it? Have you read the testimonials? Have you read the comments demonstrating the liberation my work has brought or have you just jumped in with a knee jerk response without actually considering the evidence.

      So according to you I’m manipulating on a global scale but then I’m empowering victims which is unnarcissistic. So which is it?

      Show me a considered, rational response founded on evidence. Until you do – I call idiot.

      1. We don’t have to do or prove anything to you.

        You’re a narcissist.

        Your website portrays their thoughts to be a lot worse than they actually are, to make people suffer more than they already have. That is your job here.

        You will never heal an Empath. Ever.

        And if your dedicated followers continue, they will forever be stuck in your wicked Web of lies and deceit.

        Empaths – save your emotional reactions for a box of chocolates. Or a child’s smile (A non-reptilian one).

        1. “Your website portrays their thoughts to be a lot worse than they actually are,”

          Where is your evidence for this please?

          1. Chewy is a narcissist. He has described in great detail (here and on other outlets) that he lies, manipulates, abuses, gaslights and coerces his ‘victims’.

            There.

            It’s an assumption, based on that – similar to someone ‘assuming’ and accusing their partner of cheating because you know they’ve done it before. You then concentrate on the reaction(s) to further (or blow up) your theories.

          2. You fail to distinguish however that :-

            1. Those admissions are in relation to my private life and not the blog;
            2. There is no evidence here of manipulation over several years of operating this blog and I mean actual evidence, not assumption;
            3. The rules operate against such behaviour; and
            4. There is no need for manipulation here – my work explains why that is the case. Read and digest the work and you will then understand precisely why it does not occur and moreover I am not a stupid narcissist, hence I do not commit an act where it is contrary to my interests.

          3. I see. Then I shall not accuse you of such things in future, seeing as there is no evidence that you have lied to anyone here.

          4. Good God woman! Chewy, is HG right?

            But you still have not answered my question. Do I really need to send you a link about logical fallacies? I guess I do…

          5. Yes, it’s an affectionate name I (maybe inappropriately) use.

            I thought logic in itself was a fluid concept, to each individual.

      2. Now, now HG! Name calling? Thats so Lesser of you!! I expected better from a Narcissist of your calibur.

        I am going to respond to you as soon as time permits, as my response will be lengthy. I apologize for the delay. You shoul know I subscribe to this site, getting little dollups of Narcissism in my email almost daily. Yes, Sir Tudor, Ive read every single one. Some of them, Ive listened to for greater ( no pun intended) effect.

        1. It was not a gratuitous name call but rather a comment based on the evidence before me. As I mentioned in another comment, if you demonstrate to me a considered approach actually based on the evidence (and later comments which have come after your above show you are capable of this) I am content to regard the initial comment as idiotic and that you are not actually an idiot. I actually would prefer that to be the case as I don’t want idiots amongst my readers, since the vast majority are not.

      3. I have commented previously but I suppose you didnt like those comments either because I dont see them posted.

        Its been said that the Devil will not come to you with red face, cloven hoof and tail. He will come as everything you have ever wanted.

        You have stated that Narcissists do convince their victims that they are just that during the seduction… everything they have ever wanted in a lover.

        Also, the people you target, Empaths, Lightworkers and the like, are supposedly here to do Gods work by meeting up with their twin flames which in turn is supposed to flood the world with love, if you believe in that sort of thing.
        We all know that extended entanglement with a Narcissist can lead to complete distruction of an empaths loving and caring nature. The very thing needed to find and connect with their twin flame. In essence preventing them from being able to fufill their “heavenly” purpose.
        So from a Biblical stand point it would appear that Narcissists are demons sent to Earth to destroy Empaths in order to keep God from reclaiming Earth.

        If you believe that sort of thing, that is.

        1. Your supposition is incorrect Paisley.

          The previous comment is in moderation. See the rules and you will understand why that is. I have also been away which means there is no moderation because I am the only one who undertakes the moderation, so there will be periods when no moderation takes place because I am busy about other matters, just like how you do not comment all of the time because you have other matters to deal with. Or should I be sending you comments complaining that you are not commenting because you must not like my work!?

          I understand how from a biblical viewpoint we might be seen as demons but the main problem with such a comment, which you rightly acknowledge yourself, is that this is you believe that sort of thing. We are not demons – there are no such things, but one can understand how we might be view to behave in a demonic fashion.

        2. Sorry, Paisley, but you are not arriving at your emotional conclusions based upon scripture. The Bible does dot reference ‘twin flames’ as this is a new age term sprung from mysticism. The term empath is also not present in the Bible. You conflate narcissists and demons yet the Bible does not support this. Narcissists are humans, not demons. And neither human nor demon has the ability to keep God from anything.

          The Bible notes satan was a fallen angel and that he is the author of confusion. On that last note I could see a comparison drawn to the narcissistic traits of deception and confusion used to further their selfish aims in procuring fuel, but the comparison would end there.

          Paisley, I understand you are or have experienced real pain, and I hope you heal and become stronger in the process as many of us have. Yet in order to be free from your pain you must learn the truth. Jesus said the truth shall set you free. You may not like the fact that the truth here is delivered by a narcissist, but that is precisely why it is so brutally authentic and accurate. Further, HG knows from his own experience that GOSO and NC are the only way to get free and stay free from narcissistic abuse.

          Truth, regardless the source of delivery, stands firm and is unimpeachable. Use the truth delivered here to set you free from further narcissistic abuse. Instead of demonizing humans that suffer from narcissism, understand that their original abuse caused deep pain. Pain begets anger and anger begets the creation of more pain for self and others. Let us end this cycle.

          As for the Bible’s solution? Try these quotes:

          “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”
          Romans 12:21

          “For the protection of wisdom is like the protection of money, and the advantage of knowledge is that wisdom preserves the life of him who has it.”
          Ecclesiastes 7:12

    2. Paisley P
      He doesn’t expect anything. Especially not for us to trust at first because he knows what we’ve been up against previously with his kind. He writes about what his kind think and do, and if you continue to read further you will be able to confirm for yourself and through the experiences of others commenting he is accurate. You will also find out that he is not doing this to be charitable. He does it for his own reasons, but that does not mean that you cannot benefit from the information. Would you not take information from a criminal on how to better protect yourself and safeguard your home and valuables? Read further and see for yourself. Or not. As always, it is completely up to you.

        1. Sarah Jane
          Haha. Sorry, no can do. If you don’t want to be annoyed by my presence you will have to be the one to leave. I guess that is likely since your previous comment warns of the dangers of remaining here “stuck in the web of lies and deceit” and you would not want that to happen to you. I would happily afford you the attention you crave and engage you further in a battle of wits but it is apparent that you are unarmed. Take care.

          1. Try to follow the direction of my comment being said to someone who you think was deserving of it and I’ll bet it changes your whole perspective.

            You’re right – I do want your attention. We’ve established this.

        2. Did you seriously tell the voice of reason to fuck off?

          I have been on this website for a year. I’m not just on here for one narc or just HG’s writings. I’m on here for a multitude of reasons – primarily for the comments.

          I’m on here because I’m not alone and because I have a fucking voice amongst the chaos. Despite all the cerebral jokes and banter that I cannot penetrate I’m here.

          She doesn’t need a defender but even I’m not that goddamn stupid.

          1. Did you seriously tell me that I’m stupid? (Interesting)

            Just because someone’s been here longer and adhered to the premise that ‘being nice’ is the way forward, here on this blog, does not mean a thing.

            Example: We were with our narcs for years, not questioning a damn thing, thinking everything was rosy.

            At the time of that comment, I had just had enough of reading praise and NarcAngel just happened to be ‘there’ amidst the mind fog.

            Fog. I love that word. It sounds like something you would name a silly-looking cuddly toy.

      1. NarcAngel, i appreciate your input. Thank you. However if you’ve read Sir Tudors works then you know, that Narcissists almost never do anything “just because”. It’s not in their nature. Their lives are like a game of chess. Strategically executed from Pawn to King. Expecting to gain the prime aim.

        Do we just ignore these facts because it appears that he is being helpful? Isnt it possible that this is just part of his facade? Thought fuel is abundant here, wouldnt you say?

        Not insulting Sir Tudor. He’s a very talented writer and indeed I have gained enormous amounts of knowledge from reading his works. I am grateful i stumbled upon his YouTube videos.

        But let us not forget, he IS a Narcissist.

        1. That is a more considered response than your original outburst and is based on evidence to form an opinion. I have no issue with that.

          For the sake of accuracy, do remember that whilst all is done for a purpose (as you rightly point out) it is only Greaters who actively calculate and the execution by Mid Range and Lesser is instinctive as opposed to strategically planned.

          You do not have to ignore the facts of my behaviour to form a view. You can regard my work as extremely helpful and dislike me, I have no issue with that.

          I would also clarify that fuel is not abundant here. I have explained why this is the case many times, so I will let you apply my work to ascertain why that is the case.

        2. Nicely done, Paisley – articulated slander. I’ve been known to practice that on occasion too – but, like Mr Tudor, I prefer the contrast of a good old fashioned ‘fuck off’ every now and again.

          I think this blog brings about good and bad in us Empaths. Yin and yang.

          I think the channeling of our negative emotions are us trying to claim back the power we lost to our ex narcs, through Mr Tudor.

      2. Good response, NA. No one is being forced here or forced to read HG, for that matter. But I CAN say that HG offers the best and most thorough and accurate info on narcissism that one is going to find.

        There are so many screwy channels out there by so called ‘experts’ who don’t have a clue what they are talking about.

        Not to mention all the comments HG wades through and answering questions. This is a treasure of information.

        1. Oh I quite agree Bibi. When I stumble across other sites that claim to have understood NPD, I always ALWAYS wonder if there is a Narc behind them.

          I’m not a narc but it has been leveled at me too.

          At least HG has the balls to say he is and what he’s done.

    3. Paisley, That sounds like some serious emotional thinking. You could not be more wrong. Perhaps you are in pain because you cannot discern the truth? Narcissists do lie, but here, HG is brutally honest, intelligent and supportive to his readers. His works are exceptional and helped me beyond measure. As an empath, I am all the better for knowing the works of HG and I am deeply grateful. Please actually read these works and understand their purpose before calling someone a demon and burning them on the proverbial stake. Wishing you recovery.

    4. Spot on Paisley.

      Empaths – you will NEVER heal while you’re on this site. Narcissists do not heal. They are liars. They are evil. Leave them to it and break yourself free.

      GOSO!

        1. What, right now Mercy? Because WordPress sent me a notification.

          In general? For the exact same reason as all the other Empaths that read Mr Tudor’s blog. Curiosity. Truth. To witness the works of a fantastic writer.

          If thought-provoking questions and statements that are ‘out of the box’ are allowed to penetrate our mind (like a sperm to an egg), we create better versions of ourselves.

          1. Sarah Jane, unfortunately your comments haven’t been thought provoking. They are just emotional jabs to cause a reaction.

          2. Then, as an Empath, you should understand the reasons behind why I said them at the time. I’m not perfect and we all lash out from time to time.

            Of course people will defend themselves and put their opinions of said comments forward, but I’m not here to provoke. I think I’m realising that any kind of ‘closure’ is futile here – but that’s a mindset I’m hoping to change.

          3. SJ, I do understand why an empath lashes out. That is why I question your comments. An empath will lash out when they are backed in a corner. They will lash out in defense of themselves or someone else. An empath doesn’t attack unprovoked.

            If it is closure you are truly seeking here, you are the one fighting against it. It doesn’t just happen. You have to do the work with the tools given. You can’t come in guns blazing and expect support.

          4. Why not? Bruce Willis did in Die Hard 2.7666 recurring.

            Do I need to purchase a white vest?

            You are right though, I am my own worst enemy. I sincerely mean no harm to any one here.

          5. Mercy, That is what I mean and why I stepped in – seeing through the person’s pain to give some good advice and support, which you have done. Sometimes people feel provoked even if it is not obvious that they are being provoked. Narcs can make empaths paranoid.

          6. SMH, I am open to what you are saying. It is true that we are left paranoid when the relationship ends. Time will tell I guess.

          7. Good God, logical fallacy alert #eleventybillion

            Mercy is correct – why are you here? Unless it’s too troll. And no, your opinions are not thought provoking.

            You should read my upcoming work on ‘Bubble theory’. Blowing my own trumpet but that IS thought provoking.

            Couldn’t have done it without HG though!

          8. Unless it’s ‘to’ troll. I’ll just have to trust that your upcoming work is fabulous unless you have a link for it?

            No, I’m not here to troll at all. Why are you provoking me?

          9. Of course it’s fabulous. I wrote it. Or rather I should say, I’m about to. I write things in my head, you see.

            Provoking? Really? Do us all a favour? I haven’t even taken my gloves off.

            Au contraire, it is you who are continually proving others. It has been seen and noted.

            Are you feel anxious, Sarah Jane? Is it in your chest? Does it feel panicky and tight? Do tell. We await with baited breath.

      1. Sarah Jane, I have been on this site for about a year now. I was kind of a mess when I arrived – very confused! – but now I am about as healed as I can be, thanks to HG and the other people here. Maybe I am not an empath? In any case, some of us need logic to heal and that is what HG gives us in spades. We know what he says is the truth because it makes sense, even if it does come from a narc’s mouth. No word salad here. I imagine that Instagram and YouTube are more fun, and HG can sell his books there too. But he still gives a lot here with little reward for himself.

        1. Thank you, SMH – I do understand this. I also have difficulty wrapping my head around it all and that it’s narrow-minded, arrogant and selfish of me to presume we are/should be all similarly alike. We’re not.
          But, the brutality of how it’s conveyed disturbs me. I didn’t come here expecting to read sugar-coated shit, have a cup of tea with lots of sugar for the shock (in the form of other Empathic soothers) and then slowly begin to feel good about myself – I knew it would be harsh, but I needed it. We all did.

          1. Sarah Jane, I call myself ‘SMH’ (shaking my head) because when I arrived I could not believe what I was reading. Not only was it brutal, but it was spot on. It was as if HG knew my narc. If you stay here for awhile and then go to other blogs that help with sociopaths and narcs, you will see that the Empath Soothers send you around in circles and the moderators cannot answer detailed questions the way HG does. The others are kind and good to vent to, but not all that helpful. I find this blog a breath of fresh air. Also, if you don’t like someone you can just skip their comments and not engage. A lot depends on where you are in the narc cycle. What are you dealing with right now? Maybe we can help.

          2. SMH, It is incorrect to accuse other commenters of “piling on”. They are offering her an opportunity to elevate her understanding and evolve her perspective.

          3. Shaking My Head. I like it 🙂

            Oh, it is totally spot on! That’s the lure of it all. We have always wanted to be inside the mind of our narcs, but in the context of something more innocent, maybe. Now, after reading what’s actually in it, you want to read more. Knowing the root cause and affect is satisfying, but it also gets us secretively closer to the narc (I hate using the word ‘narc’) and knowing that you know what they don’t know that you know is (please don’t judge) sexy. Ha. Sorry, but it is.

            I’m coming to terms with being a DLS to a Mid-Ranger for the last 10 years. I have escaped after several attempts, due to my ET being unable to resist his hoovers. Currently NC for 3 months, despite his hoovering attempts which have been ignored. Yes, I know, it’s not NC if his messages can still reach me – but I am changing my number soon.
            So, foggy blurry days thus far. Anger. Resentment. Focusing on the bad points of our ‘relationship’ rather than the good to keep me well away.

            What is your story if you don’t mind me asking?

          4. Sarah Jane,

            I was SIPSS to a mid-ranger for 2 years. I also had to attempt escape several times before I was successful. I have been NC for a year now.

            I found HG’s blog post-escape when I had fallen for ‘friend’ hoovers and the same shit happened as when we were in the FR (minus the sex, though he did try). In the end, I made him come to my house and watched him delete our 3000 emails in his email account using my computer. I don’t know that they are gone, gone but that step, which HG helped me to navigate, freed me, as did telling IPPS. I also do not know the fallout from that because I have not tried to find out (no stalking social media etc). The hoovers continue intermittently but they are indirect. Narc (‘Excel’) and I are in different countries now, which helps a lot.

            Whether or not my tactics were effective, in my own mind, I took back power and control, which it sounds like you are doing too. I totally understand the foggy, blurry days, the anger, resentment and confusion. I promise it will get better, especially as it sounds like you are well on your way.

          5. SMH,
            Thanks for sharing. And good for you – a year is a long time for NC so I imagine you’re in a totally different place ET/LT wise and a lot stronger-minded (I hope so). The intermittent hoovers after a year of ignoring them must be frustrating as they would surely just keep reminding you of the ever presence/memories thing,
            unless you have found a way to not let that bother you any more?

            I believe there comes a right time for each of us, after finding this blog – to just say enough is enough. It’s only been 3 months for me, but my energy levels are better and I do NOT miss the confusion and exhaustion that comes with him being around.

            Enjoy your freedom!

          6. Sarah Jane,

            They do still bother me — things like fake FB friend requests that I have to decipher (he leaves small clues). Or anonymous visits to my LinkedIn page. They don’t happen that often now – everything has been quiet for at least a month. I really only think about him and very clinically when I come here. Nothing in the real world triggers me much anymore. And as you say, remembering the energy and exhaustion make me more determined to stay away.

            I’ve been interested in other men since it ended, so the hold Excel had on my brain has loosened. I am also lucky in the sense that we live far apart now and there is no chance that we will run into each other. We don’t know anyone in common either. So it has been a more or less clean break. Not everyone is that fortunate.

            Nevertheless, I do still feel this deep connection to him (I have not really bonded with anyone else) and I am not sure how strong minded I am because I do not know how I would react if he hoovered directly – so, say, en emal popped up in my in-box. Like you, I am not completely NC and really cannot be because my work email is public and of course he has my personal one as well as my phone number (though I highly doubt he would call me).

            Anyway, it takes awhile to get your bearings. I certainly did not have mine after three months and our FR was not as long as yours. Do come here if you are in crisis or just want to talk, and hope that HG has not shelved us for a week :-).

          7. Hello SMH,

            Yes, I can see how the ‘closure’ that we want seems impossible at times – but that’s for us to deal with in our own way, as it’s not something they can give. The alone thing from the private/personal abuse they gave is the worst part, literally leaving you to sort it all out and it’s not easy. My FR was longer, yes, but I don’t really see that as anything major to go by because my hurt is not ‘better’ than yours. It’s all valid.

            I haven’t been interested in other men. I don’t think I ever want to be again, either. My ET is HIGH and right now I just see those cardboard Alan Partridge face masks on every man walking, but it’s the photo of my NEX. That’s great news for your GOSO that you have a massive distance and no mutual friends either.
            Have fun mingling amongst others with your new-found outlook and best wishes to you.

            The curtains are drawn here and the dark Sith Lord will have his work cut out trying to penetrate the fabric because they’re from Dunhelm (double-lined). Ha.

          8. Sarah Jane, I think we all go through a period of self-isolation. I certainly did.

            I wanted to say something about logical thinking, because I saw your other comment about it. It confused me too at first. But I think I have learned that the narc perspective is what HG refers to as logical thinking. When HG asks us to think logically, he really means ‘think the way a narcissist’ would think, which is by definition unemotional because narcs have a very limited emotional range. For instance, I noticed about Excel way before I knew that he was a narc, that he was never very happy or very sad. He never got excited, he never got exhausted, he had no fear or joy. His anger was only expressed as cold fury (mid-ranger) and then very rarely. He was extraordinarily calm. He was not motivated by emotions, the way empaths are. In fact, he would say that he did not understand other people’s emotions and that he had a very limited range himself. He was aware that he was different, but not why. I did not know what motivated him at the time, and he couldn’t tell me, but now I do know – actions that would result in the greatest fuel. That’s the basis of logical thinking here.

            Our emotional thinking clouds our judgment and is not safe to access around a narc. This doesn’t mean that there isn’t a place for it, but narc-land is not that place. However, we are ‘weak’ in the sense that a lot of what we do and the way we think depends on emotions, which is why HG advises us to GOSO.

          9. No, I do not mean by logical thinking, think the way a narcissist would think, not at all.

          10. HG, I was hoping you would weigh in. So what do you mean then? Because that is how I understand it.

          11. Logical as in you’ve showed us the truth so we need to lose the personal bond with that person, in order for the reality to sink in.

          12. SMH
            Oh yes, definitely hear you on the happy/sad thing. Mine (he is not really anybodys’) once made my sister cry and looking back, (because my sister has a much higher level of narcissistic traits/but is still empathic) I should have seen that for more than it was at the time. With hindsight, I now realise why.
            Out of the three of us siblings (my sister/brother/me), growing up, I was the one without boundaries. I would befriend the ‘weird’, the ‘rude’, the ‘social outcasts’, the ‘loners’. And I would let them treat me however they wanted to, without question. I’d be used as a last resort friend, the one who they could tell sordid, freakish things to without the judgemental attitudes of the others finding out – yet still be the one of ridicule in a group. I would cling to them, breathe in deep of their being, thinking I was a whole-accepting do-gooder, thinking I was what ‘this shitty place’ needed.
            A neighbourhood boy I had befriended spat in my sister’s face and I still continued to be his friend, because my sister would hit me and push me around indoors. Like my dad, she would join in with name-calling and belittling me too.

          13. Sarah Jane,

            The ridicule and belittling are sad but I think you are being hard on yourself. My older sister was mean to me too but she was standoffish and quick to react with lots of people. I was watching something the other night – Fleabag. The older sister says to the younger one, ‘we are not friends. We are sisters.’ That hit home. Strangely enough, the niece that I am now entrusted with caring for (because my sister passed away last year), is very much like me. I barely knew her because my sister kept her away from most of the family but we are like two peas in a pod. I read her very well because she is so much like me – much more so than my own kid, with whom I also close but who is very much like his dad. Some of this stuff is genetic, just like with narcs.

            I have no idea what sort of empath I am (or even if I am one) because I am/was more interested in what sort of narc my narc is. But when I was in the thick of things I feared narc had turned me into a narc too (this was on another blog). As Mercy says, we all have narc traits and that is not a bad thing. Lots of people worry about it and self-isolate and do all the things we are talking about here. The comfort in finding a place like this is that you don’t have to think you are weird anymore and you don’t have to try to explain to friends who have never been through this what has happened.

            You obviously have a risk-taking streak. I do too. Not just with narc but also in other parts of my life. So does narc. That is one thing that drew us to each other. He exploited it of course but so did I exploit that in him. I would still look for that risk-taker in someone because to me, boredom is death. You will find yourself again – changed, but still there. Keep moving forward.

          14. Hi SMH,

            I LOVE Fleabag 😛 and yes, she said it straight after their ‘women’s femenine group’ their dad sends them too (if I remember correctly). It’s so true.

            Aw, that is so sweet that your niece takes after you – and that you take care of your niece. Sorry for your loss. It must bring about a kind of sanctuary for you in the sense you didn’t get on with your sister, but perhaps the lovely bond you have with her daughter makes up for that now?

            A few narcissistic traits I could handle, otherwise we would just be floating jellyfish. Conflict has and always will be a part of life. It’s nice sharing stories with people in-the-know here it and it does make it a little less lonely. But right now…

            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aNO6yd66PpA

            Thanks, SMH – you too x

          15. Ha another Fleabag fan. Great, SJ. The Olivia Colman character reminds me of someone I know (it’s an English type, innit). Catastrophe is in the same vein if you need something else to binge.

            Luckily my niece is very focused and independent, as is my son, and they get along really well (though we are all in different countries for the next few months). Let’s just hope I don’t die too anytime soon.

            And yes, we all must have an addiction to the crack that is narcissism, though MRN/Excel put me off other narcs for now. I have taken a pass on the last two or three – the attraction is there but then I realize what I am dealing with and lose interest. Your ‘right now’ will be behind you one day. x

          16. Narcissists and Empaths alike, I presume, can/have a lack of boundaries but in a different context – I think. Or rather hope.

            I honestly don’t know what I am. But, the thought that I may have a lot of narcissistic traits or be narcissistic terrifies me – because it would be something (before now) I was totally unaware of. I only know one thing – that I’ve never deliberately tried to hurt anyone and that I do not play games with people’s minds. Also, that might be two things if you read the last sentence again.

          17. Sarah jane, you should do a consult with HG. I’m not criticizing you when I say this, you’re all over the place. Having narc traits isn’t a bad thing, we all have them and some more than others. Part of getting over the relationship with the narc is learning who we are. When it ends we are left confused and in some cases it’s as if we’ve lost our identity. Talking to HG will clear up some of that confusion and give you the focus you need to recover.

          18. Thank you, Mercy. It does make sense to know ourselves better, in order to deal with it all. I’d rather pay and find out what Empath (if any) I am on the spectrum line than discover what specific kind my NEX is because I’m already pretty sure he’s a Mid-Range after months of reading this blog.

            I am very curious as to what I am, so this week I’m going for the Empath Detector (because it appeals to my fun, quizzy side). And if I don’t come out the other side of it being enamoured with Mr Tudor, it will be a fucking miracle.

          19. Do let us know what school you are when you do the test? I’m interested 😊

            I haven’t done it yet. I think I’m a carrier with a small amount of super, normal and contagion thrown in. A lot of Ns traits also, or what I deem to be more selfish in nature. I don’t fit the co-dep description and have loathed when a few of my family members who fit that description didn’t stand up for themself. I hate conflict but I’d rather run than fight and feel as though I had a little say that way.

          20. I will do, NarcNoob – and you’ll have to let us know if you have it done (much better than having a boob job or your gnashers whitened – never been high maintenance ha). It’s interesting to hear what others think they might be, too.

            I’m expecting an audio back of Ann Robinson’s voice, saying ‘you are the weakest link, goodbye’.

          21. Narc Noob, I think I was co-d for awhile when I was with my narc but HG says that cannot be – one is what one is, and I know that I am not a co-d. So much for that theory too, though I am not sure why one can have narc traits and not be a narc but not have co-d traits without being a co-d. HG – if an empath can have narc traits without being a narc, can she also have co-d traits without being a co-d?

        2. Thanks for clearing up the logical thinking, HG chimed in and set us both straight. I’m relieved!

        3. SMH, sorry if you have already told me, but what empath school/ cadre did you get? I can only recall Mercy, Who cares, K and FYC.

          1. Narc Noob, I don’t know – or I only know from reading the posts, not from being diagnosed. I haven’t really been interested in what I am – always more interested in what Excel is.

            But just from my reading, I think I am an SE (as do many of us here and maybe we are or we wouldn’t be here) because I have strong narc traits and had a supernova explosion, turning the screws as tightly as I could, though that happened post-escape. Escaping itself – my first very firm no that I did not back down from, was very civilized. But it empowered me to go that extra mile and try my best to really fuck Excel up when he wouldn’t respect my boundaries. It was pretty bad. That is when I found HG.

            As for cadre, I don’t know that either. I can be a Saviour for awhile but again, I reach the end of my patience and then what am I? Maybe I have some Geyser traits but I am not terribly romantic and rarely cry. Maybe I have Magnet traits because people confide in me, I am very optimistic and bouncy and shiny and bright (kidding there), and I was very susceptible to hoovers, but I don’t particularly like the limelight. Maybe I have some Carrier traits as I do like to problem solve, but I am not that stoical and won’t take a bullet for a full grown adult, only for a child. Hard to say.

            Did you have a consult about it? What did you get it?

    5. Paisley
      I’ve no doubt you’ve been deeply hurt by the narcissist in your life and are left with a ton of emotions. The idea of seeking answers or help from a self proclaimed narcissist seems completely outlandish. I would encourage you to give it a chance. You’ll see something, at least one thing, from each article that will help you connect the dots.

      Yes, HG does make money off his books and his consultations. I’m not even mad about it. Good on him for being able to monetize his writing skills along with his keen self awareness and ability to analyze and describe others of his kind AND our kind. But the majority of the information is all within this blog, available for free. Just by reading here you’ll gain so much understanding as to what it is you experienced. There is no pretense that he’s doing this out of the kindness of his heart to help others. If you choose to consult with him, he’s not going to pat your hand and pass you the tissues. What you’ll get is an honest analysis of what you’ve experienced and a go forward plan.

      If you want more details as to “why” he has established this site, there is an interview on YouTube where he explains why he entered therapy and how this blog became part of the terms of his treatment. I’ll try to find that link. I wish you the best.

    6. I call angry. For the record it does get better. As far as your caveats about HG – his motivations have always been clear.

      We are trading the devil we know for the one we don’t.

      Welcome to our hell.

    7. If it was not for HG’s information and explanations regarding narcissism, we would never understand – It has helped me so much more than a therapist ever could. The information is scaringly accurate and helped me understand not just the (perspective of the) narcissists in my life, but gave me a better understanding of my self, as well.

      I understand that you might have lost your ability to trust, hope that through reading HG’s work you will gain both insight and ability to trust, again. Good luck to you!

      1. I came to this site because I found H. G. Tudor’s books several years ago while trying to understand and escape my narcissistic ex-husband. I have since become involved with another, perhaps even more devious narcissist, yet I am not able to let him go. From previously reading the books, I recognized this newer man for what he was immediately. I’ve even been able to outsmart him and actually predict his behaviors. I keep thinking I can live with this. I am strong enough and smart enough to handle the cycles and to recognize the manipulation without letting it bother me. We’ve “ended it” many times over the course of a year and a half, but I never get upset, because I know he will be back if I pretend not to care and just do no contact for a few days. How sick is this? It’s gotten so that relationships with normal men bore me. I guess I’m addicted to the drama. I grew up with a narc father. This is all I know.
        Thoughts? I’m on the inside and need an outside perspective. Am I a narcissist?

        1. No you are not. Your ET makes you think normal men are boring. Lower that ET and you will find that normal men are not boring at all.

          1. Exactly the same set up as Ramblings of a Ginger here. Yet I’m a narcissist, apparently.

    8. One more attribute of the demon Dear Paisley.. I am staying at a lovely Airbnb and of course had to locate all my “stuff” in bags.. This may seem trivial but it occurred to me that it’s not just the “big things” that this frees one of—but the sum of the little things. I was befuddled trying to locate my two soaps, my two hair oils, my makeup and various high maintenance stuff that has always been “me.” I was in such condition I didn’t get my hair done for a year! It was in a ponytail and I was drinking daily. Not fine wine. I am not saying the depressed state would not have naturally abated without HG’s clarity—but the confusion would have persisted on a substantial scale. Very substantial. I’ll hush now because there is a cute fine wine shop I’m headed into. And I don’t have to guzzle the entire bottle.

    9. Contradictions don’t exist in reality, they can only “appear” to exist. Yes, the hidden metaphorical meaning behind the stories of “demons” is about narcissists. Remember, “Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.”……Some people can see the hidden meanings of metaphors, narcissists however, can not see or understand what an empath can hide in plain sight. His “empowering” empaths feeds his sense of power and control. He “makes it all about benefiting the empaths” so he can attempt to take all the credit with what they will ingenuously do with his limited and at times flawed, information. He also gathers lots of his other “prime aims” as well. In the end, the empaths will change the world for the good. But as usual, intelligent narcissists must try, in their last desperate attempts at immortality, to try to take all the credit despite their minuscule input of information that has been intentionally hidden from empaths for a very long time. It was hidden from us by the greaters for a reason. They know what the empaths are capable of. That is also why the greaters are so maliciously and pathological envious of ALL empaths. When we become self-aware and learn to combine understanding with logic, we take the all the power (fake power) that the narcissists are only able to wield, so long as an empath remains ignorant of what they are truly dealing with and…how to respond to narcissists appropriately and effectively.

      1. I hate to disabuse you It Depends, of your clearly empathic fantasy that good will always triumph but you are wrong.

        We are not winning and it is likely that we will never win. So many abusers get away with their crimes and for a very good reason; that is the way the system works. This is the essence of my ‘Bubble theory’.

        What empowered empaths can do is look down on the system from outside of the bubble. Outside of the bubble is also where the Greaters sit.

        In that respect, Greaters and empowered Empaths are very similar but to think we can overturn it is fantasy thinking.

        1. I’d rather live in “fantasy” than sit on my ass, hopeless, doing nothing to “try” and change the world. I may not make one difference but it will never be because I did not have enough tenacity to try because I was too much of a coward to attempt the seemingly impossible.

      2. ItDepends
        Mind-blowing GOODNESS!

        This is a more in-depth, intelligenterer (deliberate error) version of something I ponder, but could never convey as good as this.

        I’m with you
        #NotAvrilLavigne

        1. Sarah, thank you. Never give up hope!!! We will win. I’d LOVE to hear your pondering! 🤔

    10. Admittedly, there is more to his story of “why he does what he does” but the base reason is…In his words, “he makes it all about us so he can attempt to make it all about him.”

    11. I just had a wonderful idea I intend to start pursuing in the first part of next year. Implantation of a state approved college course in as many colleges in Texas as possible…to start with. “Detecting Narcissistic Personality Disorder 101”

    12. Paisley, I understand completely where you are coming from. I have often refered to the narc-ass in my life as being demonic. In different times or culture I would be seeking an exorcist. In fact one of my neighbours actually mentioned one day about the fact that we live by a churchyard with graves and in his country that would be explored..
      I also understand the contraction bit and it doesn’t make sense.. narcs don’t make sense and are full of contradictions, I’ve read that on articles here.
      I also understand when people stumble across this blog they probably have been hurt by a narc and are angry. The blog can be a way to find the work of HG.
      The invitation to comment also says ‘vent your spleen!’ How tempting is that!
      Strangely enough though , the knowledge gained here does empower and give so much insight to oneself and the dynamics of narcissists, that really do help and it’s the best on the internet because it’s written by an expert that can actually explain how a narc really thinks. This is a great help for dealing with them and trying to ‘outwit’ them to preserve ones sanity. Take what you can from it, despite the contradictions and reasons why the knowledge is here. H G s insight and writings here are so spot on that you know it’s the truth if you have a narc in your life too. No doubt there is an alterior motive that serves him, but get what you can out of it.

  22. Wow! I figured this out way long ago, but continued to stay! Like an addict as you say. My drug of choice, trying to fix all of it.. Because I’m soo nice.. Blah blah blah! I am happy to have gotten out alive, very damaged, but OUT! Thank you for writing this, so if someone else doesnt see it, this may turn on the lightbulb.. I never understood him! It never made sense.. And I feel I am still a meat of prey, I can see the vultures, but, boundaries have served me well! Enlightenment, and loving myself more than I love the game!

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