The Caretaker

THECARETAKER

I would like to tell you about one of my ex-girlfriends, Karen. Karen, this is directed to you out of recognition of how spectacular your supply of fuel was. It was one of, if not the best.

Using my legendary powers of empathy detection I was able to pick you out like a pig sniffing for truffles. Some might suggest that it quite an apt analogy. I identified that you are a caretaker. You are a passionate, caring and strong individual. How best might I harness the sweet, sweet fuel that you would be bound to supply to me? I decided that rather than love bomb you I would apply a different technique. Yes I was polite, complimentary and took an interest in you so you were drawn to me, but I did not bombard you in the way that I ordinarily might. No instead I decided that I needed to test you. I reasoned that you would see me as a challenge. Most of my victims apply their caretaking instincts when I start to devalue, demean and belittle them. They want to fix me in order to return to the golden period. I opted in your case to start testing you from near the beginning.

You were never allowed to contact me first. You had to wait until I made contact and then you had to respond within one minute. If you did not you clearly did not care about me. I would wait hours in the day before I made the approach to you. Was I denying myself fuel in this way? Yes and no. Of course I was not receiving the usual blitz of telephone calls and texts that I ordinarily would when I would love bomb. This way however I knew you were always thinking of me, wondering when I might call or send a text message. I knew you would be repeatedly checking your phone and be in a state of readiness to respond. Knowing that I was ever present gave me a different kind of fuel at a different stage of our relationship to how it usually would be. When that first reply came, the power that surged me from having you waiting and ready, was intense.

I would insist that you refrain from eating before me, even when we were apart, to ensure that your hunger pangs reminded you that you were doing this at my say so. You would agree because you wanted to prove to me how much you loved me, how passionate you felt about me and that you would not be beaten. You readily became a co-conspirator in this game. I devised new and harder challenges, pushing you each time and always you rose to the challenge and indeed you would often surpass my expectations.

As ever, I was several steps ahead of you. When I grew tired of this and starting to demean you, the conditioning that I had subjected you to in our golden period was so strong that you went above and beyond to try and please me. No matter how fruitless this seemed you never gave in. You showed immense reserves of discipline and strength, your depth of character was startling and it was all being used up on me.

I may tell you how my relationship with Karen ended at some point.

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208 thoughts on “The Caretaker”

  1. I never got a golden period. My situation sounds similar, so I’d like to hear more.
    Also ” I devised knew and harder challenges” should be “new”

  2. Quite the apt title for this post, HG. I just finished with court this week, to reverse an RO that the mid-range (I believe) narc in my life put on me for “abusing an elderly disabled man” when I was supposed to be his “caretaker.” (he’s 63 and has a very old back injury from football in high school).

    I am a woman of strong faith in Jesus Christ who believed him to be the same from the 2 years of contact/personal discussions we had online studying the bible together. He is extremely intelligent and knowledgeable about the deeper things of the bible and that is what hooked me. That along with last spring he turned things romantic and really turned on the love bombing in a very personally tailored way, again using Christ/the bible to do it with.

    After the ending of my 31 year marriage, I also sought to become a more “meek, gentle woman” of Christ of which he was more than happy to lead me in. Thus ensued the “Golden Dream.” I ended up moving 6 states away to be with him. Over time, he got me to see him “as Christ” and became the sole determiner of what traits/behaviors were acceptable and what needed to “die in the waters of baptism.” The love bombing was replaced by constant, low level, hard to pinpoint criticism, sometimes with just a look whenever he disapproved of something in me. My role was to only focus on him, caretaking him in every way. Nothing else.

    One of the things he suggested I do was to sign up with the county to become an official home care worker (aka caretaker) so that I (we) could receive money for doing what I was already doing for him as his “wife.” (we were never married but he thought so spiritually).

    I had just started the process of applying for this when his mask came flying off (for finally saying no to him obsessively touching/stroking me all the time) over a 5 day period in a display so deeply disturbing and dark that I am still reeling from it 5 months later, I escaped him and went NC. He then filed the RO saying I “violated my caretaking duties” (even though I was never licensed before I left him) and accused me of the most heinous things including raping him!

    The irony, is when called to prove it last week in court when I contested the order, he could come up with nothing except “proof” (using past email writings of mine etc) that I was a narcissist! LOL! A covert chameleon one to be specific and that he filed the order to “get me to repent” of my “sin” of this. (perfect mirror of projection, perhaps? Telling on himself)?

    Needless to say, he made a total fool of himself and the order was dismissed. This really surprises me….why he would put himself on such display like that, did he REALLY think he would convince them? He completely exposed himself to everyone in that small town and has now lost his “perfect Christian man” image with his neighbors (several that were there with ME in court to testify on my behalf), some of his family and also local authorities whom he was very intimidated/afraid of otherwise. Could he be self combusting in his older years? The only contact he has now is with 2 tertiary supplies; 1. a young recovering meth addict who does odd jobs around his house and an old alcoholic man who “brings him news of what is going on in the town” once a week. Otherwise, he has become very isolated and now never leaves his house at all. He also lost a LOT of weight and looks gaunt. This may be the closest he’s ever come to having his “supply matrix” depleted.

    He did actually use this occasion in court though to pass on to me a whole packet of his “evidence” (emails and writings by me) because he knew that a copy had to go to my attorney and my attorney gave me a copy. On it, he wrote a bunch of hand written notes, complete with very personal trigger words/phrases, that he knew would crush me. He very convincingly laid out in order our whole 2 years of email/chat exchanges and painted them in a such an ugly light that really did seem to make ME look like the predator aka narcissist. The mirror was stunningly perfect in how he put it together…….and for me to refute him in any way would “prove” it….total double bind. I am now working to dismantle the tentacles of this latest “brain worm” he’s infected me with…..

    I would like to see an article written by you regarding the “spiritual narcissist” (specifically ones who use the bible). It baffles me to this day that he had SO much knowledge (that even now, I cannot refute his understandings), and yet be so bereft of the Truth. This, in addition to what I witnessed from him in those last 5 days, causes me to think there is truly a darker component to narcissism that goes well beyond being just a “personality disorder.”

  3. “the destruction of the entire fuel matrix”

    Hm. I don’t think it possible to destroy a narc’s entire fuel matrix – especially in this day and age with access to technology all around us. However, I do believe it’s possible to so severely limit a narcissist’s ability to access his fuel matrix that he is forced into Chaos Mode.

  4. H G what did you say to her to convince her she needed to do this for you? I’m referring to her waiting to eat. I know she wanted to prove her love for you but there must be more to it.

    1. She did it out of compassion for what I had to experience with regard to behaviour at meal times with MatriNarc.

      1. It now makes more sense as to why she would not eat. Compassion for you! Empaths and there compassion! Of course I would of done the same thing, there is no doubt in my mind! 🤦🏼‍♀️

        1. Indeed FM1T, tapping into and corrupting compassion for our own uses is a key method of control. Aided and abetted by your own ET which wants you to keep engaging with us.

          1. Of course HG. Nothing was more important to me then him being able to have that one person who loved and supported him. The empath is always honest and loyal. We said we would always be there for them, so now it was a given. No matter how crazy it may sound to some, I would do anything not to let him down like so many others in his life have always done. I’m still learning HG! Thank you!

          2. I thought and acted that way too, FM1T, but then I did let him down and even tried to kick him when he was down just for good measure. I wouldn’t call him a cockroach but I did want to smush him. I was petrified of him at the end (post-escape) because I did not know how to manage without giving him fuel, which he kept trying to get. When he finally succeeded, it was negative rather than positive fuel.

          3. You are a good soul FM1T. I hope you find someone who truly appreciates the gifts of your kind heart.

          4. FYC, Thank you so much! After a lifetime of narcissists I really do not ever want to give my heart away again. I just do not have the strength left in me anymore. 😘

          5. FM1T, I understand. So don’t give your heart away. It is your treasure. Just share it with one who is deserving. Make sure they do the same. That way you will both end up with more love than you started with and no regrets.

            We were hurt in our relationships with narcissists because only one heart was able to give love freely. The other heart was encased long ago. Only the narcissist has the key, but sees no reason to unlock it.

            HG has given you the armor of knowledge and wisdom. You will never un-know what you now know. People always reveal themselves. Observe carefully. You will know. You deserve happiness wherever you go from here.

      2. What in the world did she do at mealtime? I cant help but be curious. She even f’d that up too?

          1. Thanks, HG. I should have known better, shouldn’t I?
            I had to ask though, it is a small piece of my own puzzle.
            Thank you.

  5. Hi HG,
    1. You have said in one of your responses to your commenters on IG that the way Shield Maiden engages with you reduces the risks associated with the previous interactions (with former IPPS). Since Shield Maiden is a Super Empath and Karen being a codependent, did Karen’s extreme empathic and martyr-like tendency exacerbated you smelling the blood and getting negative fuel from her?
    2. Can we adopt the way Shield Maiden engages with you towards the narcissists that we encounter to avoid a toxic dynamic with them or does it only work for you because you are extremely aware of yourself and highly intelligent and educated about narcissism?
    3. Has she encountered other narcissists in her life and was she able to avoid abuse from the narc?
    4. Do you still plan on revealing what happened to Karen?
    5. Was Karen ever painted black?
    6. Would you say that you wish or hope that Karen is happy right now wherever she is?

    Thank you for the chance to ask questions HG. I worry when I don’t see new posts from you but I am happy to think that you are just having way too much fun with Shield Maiden in Dubai. Safe and happy travels!!

    1. 1. In part.
      2. No, do not ever think that because there is a SO FAR successful interaction between SM and I, you can replicate that. You cannot control the narcissist. SM cannot control me. Only I can control me owing to my ability, awareness and intelligence (a unique triumvirate) and it remains to be seen whether this will remain the case. Other narcissists do not know what they are therefore cannot be controlled and the Greaters who do know what they are revel in being uncontrollable and she no need to alter behaviours.
      3. She has. No.

      4. Yes.
      5. Yes.

      6. I have no interest.

      1. Thank you so much HG! Very interesting responses. I can’t wait to read the revelation about Karen and I hope that your relationship with Shieldmaiden continues to be a success.

  6. HG – Do mid rangers remember some exes as having been better fuel sources than others? How would they think of this if they have no concept of what fuel is? Would they just think that ex was better?

    1. The narcissist would consider an individual as better for conscious reasons linked to that person being painted white
      “She was really good looking.” or ” She had a very high-paid job and was very good at it.” Of course those traits would be dismissed/devalued when the appliance is painted black.
      The appliance is ‘ranked’ owing to how they fulfil the Prime Aims (but this is unconscious).

  7. Hi Mr Tudor 🙂 Thank you so much for your work 🙂 I read your blog and I watch your videos on You Tube. I’m from Poland.
    I know that all you write is true, because me ex was like that. I suppose he was a Greater but I’m not sure.
    I exposed him. I said: “You are an abuser, you take delight in abusing me, how can you treat people like that? Do you think that you’re superior? No! You’re not!” I think that I wounded him so much that was the reason why he discarded me. It was 2 years ago and I had no idea what narcissism is. He probably realized that I know who he is and found another primary source of fuel. Later I was filled with remorse and I apologised him but he said:” Leave me alone, I want be single, After all you said I want be single” he didn’t hoover.
    There was a smear campaign against me and people thought that I was an abuser, that i hurt him, and that I was crazy and mentally ill. I exposed him but I didn’t talk about his nasty behaviour to other people. I didn’t want gossips. But his colleagues started to be nasty to me. We worked together. In hindsight I think that I was stupid. I should have realised earlier. There were many red flags. For example : Love bombing, text messages every day, but he rejected intimacy didn’t want to kiss or snuggle up. I saw him with other woman but he said that it was just his friend. How could I be so naive?
    I talked about it with my Psychologist and she said that my ex had been probably wronged by a woman before that was the reason why he tried to control me. I know it is very difficult to find a good Psychologist.
    They say that I’m too sensitive. They don’t understand.
    I think that it is better to visit this site and read 🙂 Greetings from Poland. Have a nice day 🙂

  8. It seems a bit crazy that someone would actually wait to eat before their boyfriend even when you are apart. I seriously doubt I would do such a thing.

      1. Claire and Candace, That was my first thought too. But I think it’s easy for all of us to say from our perches here that we would never wait to eat when most of us have not been ensared by a Greater N. I think it shows how vulnerable Karen was.

        1. I always waited to eat until my father did. Once upon a time, I would’ve considered this a “soul-mate romantic notion.” 🤣🤣🤣. Silly rabbit 🐇, tricks are for kids!

        2. That is accurate. What I ended up putting up with is something astonishing to others and vice versa. Although, I’m certain that I have tremendous reflection on why I landed where I did. It was me ultimately that allowed it/participated.

          1. Claire, yes, we know in retrospect but in the moment it is possible to think that we have full control when we do not or that we are not in any danger because it’s just this one quirk, then two, and before we know it, we’re down the rabbit hole.

          2. Absolutely correct. It amazes me. But food, omg. Eating is my favorite hobby.

          3. lol, Claire. I have a healthy relationship to food but my narc did not seem to. We never ate together but he would make negative comments every time I told him about something I ate, even if it was totally inoccuous and I was joking around (I had ice cream today – too cold for ice cream; I live on ramen noodles – yuk, soup?; I am on the sofa eating cherries – I am allergic to cherries; they ran out of dessert at Sunday pub dinner – dead silence). It was weird. I think he either had an eating disorder or he was jealous of anything other than him that entered my mouth!

          4. Mhm… now you mention it, SMH …. the exnarc was a bit like that, too. Obsessed with gaining a single gram of weight, obsessed with different food things, and supplements, diets, but never eating much. Ate loads of salad when I met him.

            Also complained when I started dinner without him. Sure, why would I be hungry after waiting for him to appear for four hours …

          5. Ava101, My ExH Lesser was like that. Definite eating and digestive disorders and obsessed about his weight, though he was trim. I’m not sure about MR Excel because I never asked him and we never ate together but I suspect his food choices were fairly limited from what I do know about what he would eat. I have no idea really – only the horribly dry looking Xmas turkey I once saw on IG, eggs he would mention (the perfect food), dislike of fruit. Hard to piece together but I think because it was such an issue for him and he didn’t want me to know.

    1. At first, I thought the same thing Candacemarie1212. “How could an intelligent woman with “depth of character” agree to eat only after someone else does, even though she’s hungry??” It doesn’t make sense.

      But then I thought of the way I was manipulated into doing things and thinking in certain ways, even though now, I ask myself, how didn’t I “see” more clearly at the time? It might not have been a case of waiting to eat, but it was a case of putting up with other things or being manipulated in different ways.

      Now I think it’s not very helpful to judge, even though it’s easy to judge. People can fall into different traps even when the trap looks obvious to someone else.

      1. WiserNow, I agree. Karen obviously had no idea that she was being manipulated when she refrained from eating so that they can eat together. I know that I would never do such things for someone whom I know have been manipulating me. But I also know that I have done similar sacrifices for people that I really love. For example when my husband works overtime until midnight and he asks me to not wait for him because he will be really late I still do just so I can kiss him goodnight. Or refraining from eating when until my dad was done with his doctor’s visit so we could both eat together. So many things that we just do for people that we love and with all of the ET going on, how is someone able to see that the person that those loving sacrifices were directed to was just being manipulative in order to get fuel? I think that it is possible and it can happen to any of us with just the right manipulations. Also, Karen being a codependent means she has much more empathic traits than standard empaths.

        1. I know exactly what you mean mommypino. If you look at a situation only with logic and without any knowledge of the history or relationship between the people involved, it’s very easy to judge and misunderstand. We have HG’s perspective in this article, so we see it through his eyes. If we had Karen’s version of the same article, we’d probably see that her actions had loving and supportive reasons behind them that were understandable from her perspective. The sad thing is that Karen was tricked into having love for HG and being compassionate towards him. It’s sad because her feelings of wanting to show him love were real to her.

          1. I agree WiserNow. For HG it was like a game of monopoly, as he was conditioning her he was acquiring real estate and property so that eventually he has monopoly of her fuel. For her, it was a mutual relationship based on unconditional love. She had no idea that she was being conditioned. If we really think about it, we have all probably found ourselves willing to do similar things for the people that we love and who are not manipulating us. How much more if we found someone who has been calculating and conditioning us. This is why they are drawn to empaths, because we are more susceptible to surrendering our power to them faster because we trust. It’s easier for us to trust because we ourselves are trustworthy. Like you said, this is HG’s mindset that we are reading. We didn’t know how exactly he conditioned her. It might be that she ate without him and when he asked her if she ate already and she said yes, he had a sad face and it made her want to fix that by waiting for him. And Karen is also a special case because she’s a codependent. And I want to clarify that when I said that Codependents have more empathic traits than us, what I really mean is Codependents are well known for putting up with more shit than us. But I’m not trying to say that they are saints. It’s just that they are willing to tolerate more and strive harder than us.

          2. Yes, it’s really a case of seeing the same thing from very different perspectives. It reminds me of the saying that you can’t judge a person until you have walked two moons in their moccasins. It also makes me think of how we all project our own feelings or assumptions onto other people. Initially, we think that our own perspective is the ‘right’ one or the one that should be adopted by others as well.

            I also understand what you mean when you describe codependents. I think of my own father, and he does tolerate more and for longer periods of time without pushing back. Sometimes I feel like I need to ‘fix’ him by telling him to be more ‘narcissistic’ by not tolerating so much. But that’s who he is, and it’s true that you can’t change someone else – they need to come to that realisation by themselves.

            Thank you for your comments mommypino. It’s very interesting to think of these aspects from other perspectives and it helps to hear from other people about their life experiences 🙂

          3. Thank you WiserNow! I love what you said about how we can’t change people and they are the ones who need to come to that realization by themselves. It is absolutely true.

  9. HG your blog is enlightening. And your honesty is refreshing! Why Karen and not some young employee at work or something similar? When you engaged with Karen, were there possibly any clues to your true motives? And lastly, does any part of desire the love given by another like Karen, or just the fuel it gives you?

  10. I think Aleister Crowley was no more than narcissistic filth and a grade A idiot. However, an empath can even soak up lessons on life from a cockroach. I find a lot of parallels in his writings with Tudor’s, especially regarding ego, the creature and the abyss. Crowley’s writings are a lot about himself and attempting to understand his narcissism and how to control people. (though he of course does not call it that). His writings can be of use to anyone wanting to study narcissists on a DEEP level.

    An example: Crowley refers to a “demon” he calls Choronzon

    “is Existential Self at the last gasp…Beyond Choronzon we are no longer our Self. The “personality” on the brink of the Abyss will do anything, say anything and find any excuse to avoid taking this disintegrating step into “non-being.”
    (Please remember empaths, think 🤔 of this material somewhat metaphorically!). Tudor, have you ever studied any of Crowley’s writings?

    1. It Depends..’even an empath can soak up lessons from a cockroach’…true.
      And given the percentage of suicides post breakup,I wonder just how many had been involved with a narcissist? Murderers then in that respect.Apropos ‘abuse’, I also wonder how a Narcissistic parent would view a sexual abuser if his/her child were the victim of such a perpetrator? If Mr HG Tudors’ sterile response would be ‘fuel’, then that is all the proof I need that evil pervades their soul.It sickens me that some feel it a game to attempt to outsmart the minds of these sick individuals on here….would anyone think similarly of having an interchange with the likes of JImmy Saville,Ian Brady,Ted Bundy et al albeit those examples are no longer alive.But if what HG tells us that his ‘kind have no boundaries’, then this level of depravity could well be his and other N’s mindset.Perhaps in time with more transparency and understanding of this vile ‘personality disorder’and criminal investigative progress, we shall see more of these ‘cockroaches’ behind bars until their death.I for one would gladly pay tax to ensure this.
      ( I speak both as a parent and victim of N abuse….abuse results in suicide! Fact!! )

      1. Evil does not pervade their soul. They destroyed their soul by their own choices. (The words we use for concepts like “soul” are very lacking in the English language. Grrrr). On the positive side, the use of our soul’s by-products, joy, happiness, energy, passion, optimism, love, peace, contentment, etc., is what they feed off of. Emotion fused attention: Fuel. We are essentially, pouring our “souls” into their empty husks. On the negative side, even our anger, frustration, bewilderment, etc., is STILL infused with the by-products of having a soul. The reason why our “fuel” is AMPLIFIED when we are angry and upset is because we are basically putting out tons of emotional energy as a mixture of love and righteous anger. Not anger. “Righteous” anger. There is a difference. People have defined evil in a myriad of different ways. I define evil as an absence of love, conscience and empathy. This means “evil” people ARE capable of anything. The only thing that keeps them partially in check is threats to their fuel being cut by things like jail. You’re not gonna find a ton of empaths in jail. And yes, I agree, they contribute to many suicides.

    2. I don’t like the term cockroach. Maybe for a lower lesser but.. I really am just starting to feel this is a disposition for some. It’s not as overly complicated as it felt months ago when I stumbled upon the truth of my hurtful entanglements.

      1. You’re right. I just insulted all the cockroaches of the world. Their character surpasses that of a narcissist! 🤣🤣🤣

          1. Haha 😂So True!!! They are persistent in their survival…for now. We did learn how to get rid of one!

          2. I legitimately don’t do bugs. I have a super situation if I see one. HG is sort of an exterminator.

      2. I agree with you Claire. I don’t really like any sort of dehumanising description of them, even though I can understand why people call them things like cockroaches, demons, reptiles, a**holes, etc etc.

        When I’m angry, stressed or feeling much less generous, I think of them in those terms too because they’re so difficult to deal with, but at the same time, we all have narcissistic traits to some degree. Narcissists are still people, however, their narcissistic dial is turned up much higher on the scale and they lack emotional empathy.

        In the long run, understanding them (which is not the same thing as staying in contact or lowering your guard) is easier for your own peace of mind and positive outlook than hating them or ridiculing them.

        1. I don’t think of my ex as a quite a cockroach! He was/is actually quite dashing at times. His behavior often irritates me but HG makes it less confounding because I understand it is ultimately a means of coping. I can’t even totally despise his comrades (girlfriend included)/family for buying into his smear campaign. My friends and family don’t care much for him either. It goes both ways. His behavior is so predictable that it isn’t unique or baffling.

        2. I do not hate. I have spent half my life, making myself to understand what they are and face the brutal truth of what they are. You, obviously have not. Keep studying. These are the child rapers and attempters at the destruction of souls. You have much to learn.

    3. Why would you read C.’s writings, It Depends?
      Though I’d be the last person to call C. ‘spiritual’ and I agree on his character – the concept about the ego in the tradition he _should_ have stood in (and whose writings he stole and based some of his stuff on), is hugely different. HG and C. both have inverted or perverted the meanings etc. (HG possesses abilities or character traits one would strive for, if those weren’t used and based on on the opposite of what one wished for in a spiritual sense, inverted, aiming at ego enhancement, not overcoming it.)

      He or his disciples had/have one practice though, HG would never attempt: to face all inner demons and ego wishes, and to destructure / destroy old patterns vehemently and in a forced way. By locking themselves in by themselves with nothing, for days. By questioning everything within themselves, their personalities, in a very harsh way and by really facing their worst fears. Not choosing the easiest way as narcs do.
      Also, he used drugs to access the hidden parts of his mind in a not-so-fluffy way.

      One of the adepts who opposed C. back then has written that a true rosicrucian possesses empathy. That this was the first and most important character trait of a truly spiritual person. He spoke of ego driven individuals in a clear condemning way, but back then, one didn’t speak of PDs, he referred to it as psychosis.

      Others, too, left the GD when C. was there, such as W.B. Yeats, showing clearly that his practises had nothing to do with the spiritual tradition. In other words, why would one read that … yes, C. abused others (also substances, church candles, … ) to “develop” his “self”. BUT he did have a concept of surpassing old patterns and of self development — HG or narcs in general do not. They see no need for that and don’t face dark (shadow) parts of themselves. I also can’t imagine HG channeling other voices than his own. ;D

      The exnarc liked Nietzsche, too, has read Crowley, liked the ideas of becoming god and of being an Übermensch very much, also another ex-boyfriend of mine. Neither did the work though, they thought they just were like that already and entitled.

      Some themeletic people I have met are the most impressive individuals I have ever met, those who did work on themselves daily, and gave up earthly possessions, etc. for this.

      But yes, I hate C., too, totally, I just wanted to say that I don’t think that narcs and HG are just like him and that it’s not the same concept.

      I never got over the fact that JImmy Page bought C.’s house …. :/

      1. Ah, a smart person! I’ll answer you and some others later today or tomorrow when I have more time.

      2. Ava101,

        You have clearly done your homework. Your question is not a simple one to answer but i will try. Why would I read C’s writings? Well, the short answer would be, I am a truth seeker. I will read any writing that I deem intelligent (even if only in part) and worthy of the most precious commodity on earth, my time.

        Concerning your statement: “(HG possesses abilities or character traits one would strive for, if those weren’t used and based on on the opposite of what one wished for in a spiritual sense, inverted, aiming at ego enhancement, not overcoming it.)”………This has to be adressed from several points of logic. First, narcissists, on their own, with no “fuel,” and character traits, surreptitiously obtained from others and especially empaths, do not really have much in the way of abilities and character traits. This is part of the shards and pieces they get from others to build their construct. It looks real but scratch the surface and you’ll discover how false and hollow it truly is. It is not real. Tudor would argue that if it looks and feels like the real thing, what’s the difference? Typical narcissist thinking. In my world, there is a HUGE difference between reality and mirror worlds. Even a greaters apparent level of charm is a by-product of “FUEL.” Take all fuel from them for an extended period of time (and especially if you couple this with sustained use of narcissistic injury (just the honest truth) and you will see, they do not actually possess charm from within themselves. It is illusions, propped up by fuel.

        C’s life actions proved him to be a narcissist. You are correct about what C “proclaimed” at times about himself but let’s examine words vs. true motives.

        You said this………”He or his disciples had/have one practice though, HG would never attempt: to face all inner demons and ego wishes, and to destructure / destroy old patterns vehemently and in a forced way. By locking themselves in by themselves with nothing, for days. By questioning everything within themselves, their personalities, in a very harsh way and by really facing their worst fears. Not choosing the easiest way as narcs do.”………

        Narcissists have NO connection to spirituality. It is not possible. That connection requires both empathy and a conscience. But some, DESPERATELY wish to figure out what empaths (for lack of better terminology in the English language) “know” and “experience” that they can’t. The quite simple experience of astounding “synchronicities” is a curious thing to an intelligent and curious narcissist. (Usually a greater) Someone like C (and I don’t put down the GD (Golden Dawn) or others, I haven’t studied them enough yet to form a solid opinion) is a narcissist obsessed with power and control of others. Half of what he did was con-man flim-flam. The other half was trying these different “routes” to increase his power and control over others, ATTEMPTING to use the power and energies of the “spiritual world” that he has no access to. He “CONVINCED” many people he had this access but as you said, he was good at stealing others material AND he was a VERY accomplished con-artist by nature of him greater awareness of himself and his narcissistic nature. (though again, he did not use such terminology)

        This is the same reason why princes, kings and queens get obsessed with people like Edward Kelly and John Dee. They somehow know (and it bugs the HECK out of me, not knowing HOW they know this!!!) there is “more” than what they can access (and they know the strong empaths do have access to this) and they become easy prey to accomplished charlatans and hucksters.

        My opinion, is that (and I will change it with a better presentation of logic) is that Crowley and Tudor are both narcissists acting and presenting their narcissism in uniquely different ways.

        Back around to the deeper answer of, “Why would I study Crowley’s work? He walked among honest deep thinkers and truth seekers. Some of it, he picked up and put into his “construct.” I am wise enough to see that and find the tiny nuggets of truth. That, and he telegraphed insights into himself (a narcissist) much like Tudor. These glimpses into the narcissistic “self” is something I find very helpful on my journey of truth and the destruction of the lies that we, as empaths, have been fed, over the centuries. I sincerely hope this adequately answers your questions!

        1. Perhaps one could argue they have some idea of charm… being what they deem of themselves? One only has to read the many pats on the back HG gives himself here. He sounds like he believes he is invincible, yet also claims to be incurable. Interesting indeed.

          1. Interesting. You are most correct. He is outstandingly charming. But again, it can only be sustained as long as he can get the ” fuel” from outside himself…to sustain it.

        2. Oh, and this is another reason they hunt empaths. Their connection to (again, lack of better English words of description) the spiritual world that provides life and physical energy and unbounded potential, is completely non-existent and unreachable to them without a dumb mediator. They literally CAN NOT meaningfully exist without empaths because of their inherent “evil” nature that is cursed with always being hungry, walking the earth, never able to be satisfied. Their curse for choosing power/control/hate over love.

          1. It Depends:
            Hm …… you kind of reach the conclusion what Hinduism says then … that there are people walking the earth, who have no souls, empty beings ….

            I will need some days to answer in length, as I need to do some work.

            (But why not read the work of the “good” ex-GD members then??? W. B. Yeats, Paul Foster Case, Dion Fortune …. and the original works, C. had stolen [like .. literally …]?)

          2. Ava101

            I believe they do not start out as empty souls. I believe that as a young child, they choose power/hate/control/selfishness……this means more to them than loving and being loved. Over time, this severs their “spiritual” connection which in turn means they become empty husks. In essence, they kill their own “soul.” I suspect there is a genetic component from past genetic tampering but I still trying to nail that theory down with good facts that are near impossible to find so it is still just a theory. (Think of the genetic tampering of plants and animals mentioned in the Book of Enoch). Such thoughts should not have been possible to an ancient writer without modern scientific knowledge. Greaters have managed to hide so much…and they continue to get away with OUTRAGEOUS lies and deceptions in plain view of humanity who for the most part believes it all and never questions what is obvious to some of us.

            Btw, I do read the works of the “good” ex-GD members! 😎

      3. Oh, and by the way, to slightly illustrate my aforementioned points with subtlety, narcissists are surgeons……not code breakers.

      1. This is an emotional response and is thus fuel. The narcissist would need to witness/know about it however.

        The potency is as a consequence of the appliance’s place in the fuel matrix.
        The frequency is the duration – so if the narcissist watched in person the self-harming for say 10 minutes then the frequency is constant for 10 minutes. If the victim wrote ‘I am going to cut myself’ in a text, that is a one-off dollop of fuel for a very short duration.
        The amount depends on the conveyance of the emotion. If the narcissist witnesses the self-harming that is a massive amount of fuel. If the self-harming is conveyed in a text as detailed above, the amount is small.

        1. The rest of the story. If you allow a narc to harm you in such a way…their fuel is off the charts.

  11. Are you really THAT alluring?? I must say, I would like to judge this for myself. I believe it COULD be true but I have never come across someone SO alluring as to get away with such shenanigans. Are you perhaps a reptilian shape shifter??

    1. Shape shifting is indeed what is done.. Lifting character traits to appeal to the one targeted. I remember my ex wanted to jog with me. Made sense—he looked in shape. He was in shape from weights but almost died running! It was ridiculous looking back.
      I now know he was copying me—it’s actually quite sad to be that broken because he wasn’t bright enough or self aware enough to realize his own behavior.

    2. My perception is, it is not about the degree of charm. It is an intrinsic polarity between the narcissist and the codependent. Both are actually codependent in the relationship. One needs to borrow the emotions of the other and the other needs to love and fix the one. Think of it as a yin/yang of dysfunctional interdependence. This is also described as a ‘fantasy bond’. A ‘normal’ person would not find a narcissist alluring long enough to engage or remain in a relationship. But, a codependent and narcissist are naturally drawn together and both willingly do the dance, yet each have different views of the outcome.

      My understanding is, both the narcissist and the codependent are injured people, but they developed very different defense and coping mechanisms to survive in life. When subjected to neglect and abuse between the ages of 0-6, the narcissist subconsciously adopted the belief that attachment, love or any vulnerability threatens their very survival. Therefore, they seek control and power to reach equilibrium. Conversely, the codependent, subconsciously adopted the belief that applying more accommodation, love, and approval seeking would ensure their survival and one day help them attain what they long for from their primary caregiver. These patterns are repeated ongoing.

      Hope this was helpful.

  12. Yes, this is how my Narc Ex operated/operates. There was no love bombing in the usual sense.

    Instead I received carefully titrated doses of attention that got me right where he wanted me.

    I kind of sensed it at the time, but I liked it. How could I not? He observed me, figured me out, and gave me what I signaled that I wanted or needed.

    Now enlightened via HG’s work, I am not only more aware of how narcs operate. I am also much more aware of my own signals, my wants, and my needs.

    May I never be targeted by a narc again!

  13. Down right cruel. That’s all I have to say about this short story. Wait one more thing. “Mind control” = torture.

  14. HG, wild guess here: Karen committed suicide. Either your family or her family or both blamed you – maybe even accused you of giving her the means to do it. Hence being blamed for a crime you did not commit and ending up in therapy. Am I warm?

    1. HG, I think I am right about Karen committing suicide because you did not respond to my question and also at one point you said ‘no’ when someone asked if you would ever hear from or speak to her again. If she were alive you wouldn’t know that for sure or answer so definitively. If she did commit suicide, we are into some very serious territory here. I don’t think one can be responsible for someone else’s suicide but your treatment of her was still horrifying. I mean honestly, if you don’t have respect for someone, just leave. Don’t ground them into nothingness just to prove that you can ‘win,’ especially if she did nothing to you. I hope you can just leave SM if the time comes and not take her apart piece by piece until she feels that she is nothing. That is what you should be working on with your doctors. How to leave a relationship without destroying the other person.

        1. I am sometimes flabbergasted 😮 considering the “correct” information you’ve provided them. They STILL refuse to understand what you are. EVEN after you’ve explained to them in-depthly!!! Cognitive dissonance on a cosmic scale!!!!!!!!!

          1. Emotional thinking is very powerful indeed and so powerful that when it has someone in its grasp they are unable to see it.

          2. Are you always logical or do you have pieces of emotional thinking? I assume so—instinctive responses?

          3. I am a narcissist therefore I do have some emotional thinking, not a lot, but some. I also do operate instinctively, although mainly through calculation. Mid Range and Lesser Narcissists operate always with instinct and they have higher levels of emotional thinking.

          4. I seem polluted with it. I wonder what borderlines go through though.. Seems it would be nearly uncomfortable at times. When is your BPD writing coming about?

          5. You are so very correct. It just still blows my mind how, in a brief moment of honesty, that you tell them that your kind are “evil” (Even wrote a book 📖 by that title!) and they somehow still seem sympathetic to you and your kind. Do they think you use such a term lightly and without forethought? Do they not understand the true degree of calculation, self-reflection and intellectual insight that a greater is capable of? It’s almost an insult to your intelligence to not understand what you are telling them in plain truth and plain language. We all have moments of cognitive dissonance. The “degree” of such cognitive dissonance with some people, is just overwhelming to me at times. There are actually people on your board, who would love to date you. It is insanity after what you’ve told them!

          6. Your response is understandable ID and to an extent accurate. There is of course a difference between understanding and applying. People understand what I tell them, what they often struggle with is the application of that understanding. Why is that? Not because they are stupid, not because they do not understand, but it is as a consequence of the power of emotional thinking and the fight that it puts up to maintain interaction between the narcissist and them, in whatever form.

          7. Your response is understandable ID and to an extent accurate. There is of course a difference between understanding and applying. People understand what I tell them, what they often struggle with is the application of that understanding. Why is that? Not because they are stupid, not because they do not understand, but it is as a consequence of the power of emotional thinking and the fight that it puts up to maintain interaction between the narcissist and them, in whatever form.

            I can attest too this. I know I need to get out. When I do not hear from him in a day or 2 I go into “what the hell are you doing Kim” mode. My logical thinking is still there but my ET is still winning. I will one day break way…………….but for now to keep the anxiety at bay I stay involved in my golden period. (this statement brought to you by pure ET)

          8. Kim E
            Just wanted to say hello back to your previous comment (that I couldn’t find again). I’m glad to hear your logic is edging in against your ET and of your resolve to one day break away. We are here for you.

          9. NA. Thanks for the kind words. And please play nice with the others in Tudorland. I would hate to have to open my empath rage on them if they hurt you

          10. Kim E
            Haha. Thank you for your sentiment but there is no need for rage. I play as nice as the behaviour I am afforded (often nicer), but people here dont hurt me.

          11. I agree—people would indeed want to meet and have a romantic entanglement with HG. I think it’s reflective of a sensitive place for someone and certainly a brand of idealization/weary sense of self. (Not saying they are “bad”—just in need of understanding and tons of support if ever admitted to.) I’m sure HG is aware of people having “crushes” on someone (him) in a helping position. I tend to view him as a professor of sorts? It’s like I’m in class. I would love to meet HG in a group (conference style) setting one day if he ever comes out of the anonymity he currently chooses. I essentially idealize the intellectual component??

          12. Kim, I agree that this emotional thinking is a tough one to beat, initially. It took me about a year to truly absorb the concept “they can not EVER change.” It was the hardest concept for me to internalize. All I ever wanted to do was help them and I thought unconditional love could do this if I loved them “hard enough.” My “Christian” background preprogrammed me that everyone could be “saved.” This is what I think of as an intentional organized lie. On the good side, I am very happy you at least “know” what you’re dealing with. Some, like those raising narcissist children, live miserable lives because they have no idea “what” they’re dealing with or how to somewhat manage the situation. Good luck in your emotional thinking 🤔 battle!!!

          13. ID, I’m curious as to how your preprogrammed Christian worldviews have changed since you encountered your N and the many hrs of research?

          14. I cannot GOSO because of Emotional Thinking. I loved him. He was fun. And also he put me down so much, now I question myself. He did a lot of manipulations that I was unaware of until HG (the hero) outlined them on the Narc Detector service. Only thing that deterred me from him was another Narcissist. I am messed up now. Before this I was in a normal relationship for 13 years. Now I’m obsessed with the Narc.

          15. Does it feel like you’re not fulfilling your aim of convincing people to stay away when they throw themselves? Or does the fuel of it pacify you to not minding?

          1. Hello again SMH,

            I read in an article tonight (back in 2015) that someone else commented with the same idea however HG pointed out that would be less fuel and that’s not the best outcome.

            What I have found confusing is lack or fuel equates to lack of control and isn’t an applicance that lacks obedience in need of some corrective therapy by some N standards?.

          2. Hello Narc Noob, I think HG says that suicide is not the objective and does not serve the narc well, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen inadvertently.

            If I am understanding your last part correctly, I believe Karen was obedient until the end (HG correct me if I am wrong) but HG got bored – it’s that strawberry ice cream thing – and so he devalued her in order to get some negative fuel, which can be a lot more intense than positive, but she rose above it, so he had to try harder. It wasn’t that Karen’s fuel ran out, per se. It was rather that HG wanted to shake things up, so to speak.

          3. SMH, I hope that you’re wrong about Karen too. I have such a soft spot for her.

      1. I’m surprised but agree with your post.

        Suicide is what some of them encourage. Nothing should surprise us, but we continue to be nonetheless. Me, anyway.

        1. Narc Noob, HG has said that suicide is not the point since that would neutralize the fuel source, so if that is what happened, I don’t think he directly goaded her to commit suicide. But as I said elsewhere, it’s the obliviousness that I think is the problem – the narc’s lack of awareness about how other people are feeling. Hell, HG’s own mother displays that obliviousness. Of course it is tied to empathy but still, HG has cognitive empathy even if he does not have the feeling kind.

          1. Thanks SMH. I agree with your assessment here.

            I guess I was thinking more when a fuel source isn’t obedient. When they do retract and dislodge the bullet putting into place NC. This could be problematic for some? HG says the N will invariably look elsewhere but if the E has the power to take down the Ns fascade, along with their whole fuel matrix, they could be seen as a threat. Getting rid of the (lack) of fuel source might be an option.

            Always enjoy reading what you have to say here, must be your clear writing style. 😊

          2. It is extremely unlikely that an empath can dismantle the entirety of a narcissist’s fuel matrix. Of course an escaped primary source causes significant problems for a narcissist, most notably Lesser or Mid Range and this combined with damage to the façade makes for a heady brew of problems for the narcissist, but the destruction of the entire fuel matrix is pretty much impossible.

          3. Yeah, I sure tried to destroy the fuel matrix but I know I was not successful.

          4. Thank you, Narc Noob. Sometimes I just put stuff out there – the way I understand things and sometimes HG tells me I am wrong!

          5. SMH, interesting.

            Was it trying to take down Excel matrix or someone else’s?

            I seem to recall seeing something about you taking 2 years to sort an issue but I may be getting my wires crossed with someone else here. Did HG know about this?

          6. Narc Noob, Excel’s matrix. Really I just wanted him out of my life at that moment and that seemed to be the only way to do it. As always, I believe he survived. Yes HG did know and told me the possible repercussions as well as the futility, but I did it anyway because I needed to. I would do it again, but better this time!! It’s the kind of thing that takes practice but who has that sort of experience? Not me.

          7. Thanks SMH. I concur. No experience here either. Would prefer if things were different though. All the best xo

      2. There are stories where a whole group of narcissists has ground someone down until they kill themselves and then they continue to devalue the person after that even. I think especially this can happen in the military where I’ve read stories of women being persecuted after reporting sex assault or else someone is simply targeted due to perceived weakness.

      3. Also, just thinking, I have used continuous vicious devaluing statements directly at narcissists, I can see it as a valid counter-measure that is self-protective. I have done it after a certain level of repeated smothering, life-oppressing, instinctively superiority instilling maneuvers on the part of the narcissist. I feel that prior to that they simply cannot fathom that I would lose respect for them from being continually, blindly and brainlessly objectified. I realize why HG teaches not to mirror, I’ve done it out of instinct. Better is to recognize narcissism in advance and not get to such an invested and upsetting point.

        It is wild to me that a narcissist will paint someone black to such a level with flimsy, strictly self-centered rationalizations. Watching a known narcissist maneuver back and forth mentally and then settle on devaluation is just insane.
        “This is this, and that is that.”
        And now you are “that”. Good luck.

    2. SMH, I hope though that Karen said to him (or thought about him) in the end: “Look HG, I have tried everything to make you happy but there really is no end to it, you keep moving the finish line. I do love you very much but I have only 1 life and you got so much of me already. I know when I have done enough.”
      Inventing history can be so empowering 🙂

      1. (Sorry, that smiley I inserted is kinda ugly here. It should have been 🙁 since she will never have said or thought that, and we learn that this is what we have to say from her tragic story)

        1. Yes, Shesaw it is sad. What you wrote is basically what I did say during my escape: ‘You are unhappy but I am not the cause of your unhappiness so I cannot fix it.’

  15. HG, there is a fondness in the way you tell this story that does not exist when you speak of other IPPSs. I am very interested in finding out how you and Karen parted ways and look forward to the big reveal.

    Karen (as subject to your manipulations) used her compliance through exercising restraint to fuel you (unbeknownst to her of course). Three questions if I may to satisfy my curiosity:
    1. Did this approach meet your fuel requirements in the same way as the usual Golden Period with more frequent contact?
    2. What was it about Karen that made you employ this particular strategy to draw fuel from her?
    3. What if any impact did the strategy have on your interaction with your broader fuel matrix e.g., did you need more supplementary fuel from your IPSS’s or have more frequent contact with them to fill in time?

    Thank you HG.

      1. “Without Karen, I decide against having the lamps gently bloom and instead prefer the gathering darkness“………Telling indeed…The name Karen, for anyone who cares to know, means “pure.”

        1. “the destruction of the entire fuel matrix is pretty much impossible.”………WRONG!!!!

          1. Come on then, let’s have the explanation as to why I am wrong. I am ready to be entertained.

          2. HG
            I have to say this will be interesting to read. One can not take an entire fuel matrix down.

          3. tudor

            First, the caveat. Taking down a narc’s entire fuel matrix requires a TON of time and energy. In almost all instances, this is a waste of an empaths time and energy and will leave you drained, for quite a long time. Except in very rare circumstance, I do not recommend anyone attempt this. It is also one of the times when a narcissist is at their most dangerous.

            First, I don’t consider tertiary sources in this discussion because it is not enough to “sustain” a narcissist. Admittedly, you can’t cut off this fuel source. Cutting off a narcs fuel matrix requires you to mirror them. Do what a greater does, when they devalue, taking great care to do everything legally and with plausible deniability. Relentlessly attack their eight pillars. Give out as much emotionless narc injury as possible to keep them in a weakened state, less able to fight back. Zap their energy as if you were battling for your very life. Go after the secondary sources first, they are the easiest to confront. Pick out the least loyal to the narcissist. Start with that one and work them down one at a time. As the less loyal ones are “seduced” by you (remember, use the mirror) (seduce with fuel, not sexually) and begin to jump ship the others will see it and it creates somewhat of a domino effect. This requires much daily, logical and VERY focused planning. When the primaries witness all the secondary sources turning against the narcissist, this is the seed of doubt that you then use with the primaries. I won’t detail how I have done so because tactics will be uniquely different to each person and you either instinctively know how to use the narc mirror or you don’t. You must mirror how they isolate their victims from friends and family. Narcs don’t do it in a week and you won’t either. It takes time and energy. But it most certainly is NOT impossible. It usually ends with them leaving town and relocating to have to start all over in new hunting grounds where no one knows them. And, admittedly, it is not possible to dismantle the fuel matrix of “all” narcs. Some have fuel matrices that are just too extensive to take down.

          4. I stopped reading at this point

            “First, I don’t consider tertiary sources in this discussion because it is not enough to “sustain” a narcissist. Admittedly, you can’t cut off this fuel source. ”

            So you concede you cannot destroy the fuel matrix of a narcissist which is what I stated.

            Readers, you cannot destroy the fuel matrix of narcissist because you cannot control the narcissist. You can control yourself, which is why you implement GOSO. Thinking you can destroy the fuel matrix of a narcissist is either :-

            1. The grandiosity and magical thinking of a Lesser or Mid Range Narcissist ; or
            2. The impact of emotional thinking hijacking the empathic trait of justice and narcissistic trait of pride in order to make you engage further with the narcissist to continue feeding the innate addiction the victim has to the narcissist.

          5. HG

            I read this taking down a fuel matrix and the only thought I was left with was they took down the Empath and not the narcissist.

            Tertiary sources can not support an Empath due to either not caring or the influence of others can sway their perspective of things against the Empath so of course they wouldn’t matter.

            In reality it just came across as one slowly stripping the support network of an Empath and not the slow destruction of a fuel matrix.

            Who the hell would put this much time and energy into taking a fuel matrix out, you go in help the Empath and leave.

            Even what I did to John had to be done a specific way yet never did I think I would change his fuel matrix in the end that was my mistake not taking in consideration of his fuel matrix yet it was the lack of understanding it in the manner I do now. I would never have attempted what I did if I did. It was a foolish move on my part and one I won’t make again with a Greater.

          6. If you are going into battle with a narcissist you are doing so in contravention of the first golden rule of freedom and therefore you are being governed by your emotional thinking. Thus you are indeed gambling and you will lose.

          7. I was thinking similarly when I first posed this to HG earlier. Of course ET was high when I thought “justice” had to prevail.

            BUT I also had another perspective in mind. Given a certain Ns fuel matrix dynamic, It’s not what I’d call the normal fuel gaining route, and probably a notch up as it allows for N to gauge better when it’s Hoover time, discard and devaluation. A tool that any N would love to add to their toolkit I would imagine. Esp that of a lesser.

            Secondary and tertiary sources, there’s no way to gauge that elimination or exposure. The world is FULL of combustion material.

          8. I lose a few rounds here and there but I always win the table. I made a sport out of extreme perseverance! 😎

          9. No, I do not concede. Once again, we are different creatures looking at the situation from perspectives that are incongruent. Let the readers decide for themselves.

  16. Hello HG. I was conversing with my husband about a recent hoover from an old friend. I stated to him, “I got her message that she just wasn’t that interested in my life (very little time and attention invested, parceled sharing of thoughts, feelings, events, etc.) so I just walked away. She is disappointed in me from some 30 years ago or just thinks I am trash.” He responded back to my claims “No , she doesn’t feel anything about you. Trash is something you throw away. You are not trash to her, you are FUEL. Fuel is something you burn. She needed fuel. Remember what HG says!” Well your message is spreading far and wide. Thank you.

          1. I never said you were lacking likability! I like you just fine. I don’t like my ex. It’s all a matter of personal experiences. Some people adore my ex. They haven’t had the unfortunate existence of being his primary (source) beating post. Same with you—you’ve said many adore you because there has been no malice or misbehavior directed their way. I’ve been paying attention HG. It all makes excellent sense. Talk about a learning curve though—I thought I hated the tedious nature of statistics.

          2. I never said you were lacking likability! I like you just fine. I don’t like my ex. It’s all a matter of personal experiences. Some people adore my ex. They haven’t had the unfortunate existence of being his primary (source) beating post. Same with you—you’ve said many adore you because there has been no malice or misbehavior directed their way. I’ve been paying attention HG. It all makes excellent sense. Talk about a learning curve though—I thought I hated the tedious nature of statistics

        1. Yeah, I suspected that about Woody too. I think he is my second preferred narc, after you Mr Tudor.

    1. No offense meant to his fans but I can’t stand Woody Allen. I believe his adopted daughter’s story that he raped her when she was a child.

      1. I don’t believe that daughter at all. There is zero evidence and a judge dismissed the case on zero evidence.

        In this instance, I believe Mia coerced her. Mia is a manipulator herself. That daughter never wipes her tears during her interviews. Scott Peterson did the same when faking his sadness over his wife he murdered. That family is severely fucked up.

        Woody is a narc, but a great filmmaker. He constructs some of the bests narcissists ever put to film. And a Bergman fan to boot!

        1. Hi Bibi, I have not seen Dylan in an interview but I have read her open letter and reading her words convinced me that she was telling the truth. I felt it in the way that she told her story. The image of her staring at that toy train and focusing on it while she was being raped was very vivid. Her anger to the people in Hollywood who knew her since she was a child and applauded WA when he received a lifetime achievement award says to me that she felt betrayed by all of them. I think we all can relate to how that feels when someone who was evil to you is celebrated by people that are benign to you and you even respect. It does hurt and that’s what she felt which convinced me that her story was really important to her and not just made up. There are red flags for lying and one of that is when someone is trying extra hard to be convincing, such as not wiping the tears so that everybody can see the tears. I remember I was in the same position when I had in a big fight with my stepkids and I felt that nobody from their family except my husband understands me I noticed that I was saying phrases like: honest to God, I swear to God, I’m telling the truth, etc. which I know are actually red flags for lying but I wasn’t lying, I was just desperate to be believed. The same thing when they smeared me to their special needs brother and I was trying to convince him that what they said my motives are are not true.
          It is also telling that Ronan Farrow, which I personally find highly trustworthy and respectable, said that he believes Dylan’s story and that Woody Allen offered him a bribe in exchange of speaking against his mom Mia. But like I said, I have never seen a video of Dylan’s interview. I will try to find one and I may or may not change my opinion after seeing it.

          1. MP:

            Ronan Farrow is a slimeball. He is even more of a narc than Woody. The other kid, Moses is his name, sides with Woody and says that Mia was regularly manipulative and would coerce their kids to be against Woody. Mia and the daughter have since cut Moses from the family. Moses claims that the incident could not have occurred, due to logistics of that day. It is all gossip and no facts.

            I trust Ronan as much as I do Trump. It’s rumored that he is actually Frank Sanatra’s kid (he looks like him) yet I don’t personally care because I can’t know what happened. I also don’t believe castigating an artist on pure hearsay and speculation and no evidence.

            Soon-Yi was never Woody’s adopted daughter and I wish people would stop saying this. He was Mia’s adopted daughter but they were not married. What he did was fucked up and hurtful, but there comes a point where one has to let it go. Mia continually Tweets about Woody and yet has no problem having her images used in his films.

            Whatever. It’s been 25 yrs now. No contact needs to be enforced for a reason.

            I do not believe the daughter. That doesn’t mean I don’t think Woody is a narc, but from what I heard the story does not add up. And his films are too great and important for me to worry about his personal life. Many artists had fucked up lives. Picasso was a misogynist. Caravaggio was a murderer. Polanski actually DID rape a young girl. Yet I still own many of his DVDs.

            I am not going to turn away the good from someone who might have done bad. It’s not my business. Believe me, I already had an army of feminists attack me for this, but evidence is evidence. Unless it is there, I won’t believe on speculation.

          2. Hi Bibi, I don’t know a lot about Ronan Farrow but I thought that he was admirable when he pursued to write about Weinstein and give voice to his victims before it was hip. Nobody wanted to touch Weinstein but he persisted. Of course the Weinstein scandal didn’t get real traction until Ashley Judd turned on him. But before Ashley Judd there was Ronan Farrow working hard and silently to break that story. He didn’t get enough credit for that. I don’t think his biological father, whoever he may be, affects who Ronan is as a person. I think that he should just be thankful that he didn’t end up looking like Woody Allen. I know I would if I was him. 😜. I can see that Ronan is highly narcissistic, but he doesn’t look like a narcissist to me.

        2. Hi Bibi,
          I forgot to mention, the rape accusation was never tried in court. There was no judge that dismissed it because there was never any hearing.

      2. MP, no offense taken. I am used to hearing “how can you like WA? Yuck!” And saying his my second favorite narc was a little exaggeration too.
        I must say my appreciation of Woody Allen is purely based on his work and humor. I like his films. I don’t know much about his private life. I know he had a relationship with Mia’s adoptive daughter and ended up marrying her, probably just to calm the public opinion and preserve a more “decent” public image. I did not like this story and it did change my appreciation for WA as a man.
        I guess we come to the already discussed question whether or not one should judge the work of a narcissist by the way they live their life. Sometimes it is easy for me to do this because I don’t like the narcissist’s work anyway, so it is easy for me to dislike that artist wholly. In the case of Allen, I can appreciate his films while keeping a more critical mind towards the man. But in general I must say I have a hard time seeing people in black or white. I always see different shades of gray. So it is hard for me to condemn someone completely, more so if that person’s work has a positive influence on me, or I find value in it.
        As I said, I don’t know much about Allen’s private life (not interested in it). I have not heard anything about this rape case you’re mentioning. Rape is serious and, if true (will I ever really know though?), it would definitely affect the opinion I have of him.

        1. Lou
          I’m with you. I can separate and appreciate the talent and/or any benefit gained from the narcissist. I like black and white when tasked with something specific, but find gray is much more flexible when dealing with people.

          1. NA, yes, I think that shows my self serving side, which most human beings have one way or another. If Allen is guilty of rape, I certainly won’t like him as a person (never really have) and will condemn him for it. However, I still will think that some of his films are entertaining and witty.

          2. Also Lou, I just want to add that just because I believe that WA really did it doesn’t mean I expect everybody to believe it. We all see stories from different perspectives and the fact remains that he was not convicted of it and he wasn’t even tried for it. So I totally understand that.

          3. Hi NA and Lou, I agree about the gray area when it comes to people. But for me there are certain behavior that make me paint a person black in my mind. Hitler is painted black to me. I don’t care that he wrote amazing speeches, I have no desire to read them. Chris Watts is painted black. Child milestones are painted black too.

          4. Mommypino
            Yes, of course there are exceptions where you can find no (or almost no) benefit and those people are painted black (but even then honestly I might find something). I was speaking more of gray in where we may be limited in facts or due to the skewing of media etc. It’s shocking when we find out after a trial for instance that there was evidence the jury was not allowed to hear that in our minds might have had them come to a different conclusion.

          5. Hi NA and Lou, I agree with you totally. And this is where our different perspectives come to play. I have comments that are still waiting to be moderated which explained why I believe that WA really did what his daughter accused him of which in my mind makes him a child molester which in my standard is an extremely bad behavior. And I totally respect that other people see things differently. Mia Farrow made a decision to not press charges against him because of the trauma it has been causing Dylan Farrow at that time who was just a child so nothing was proven. But Dylan is an adult now and her story is still so important to her which makes me find it believable that it wasn’t just Mia Farrow dictating her to smear Woody Allen. And Ronan Farrow also believes that his sister was molested and I personally find Ronan Farrow to be highly credible especially when he pursued writing and investigating about Weinstein’s sexual misconducts despite being discouraged by the network that he was working for. I have these two links of articles that support my belief. But like I said in a comment that is still waiting for approval, I don’t think that everybody should agree with my perspective. I believe that we are all entitled to our own perspectives. It’s just the devil’s advocate in me that brings this stuff up whenever I see Woody Allen or even Jim Carrey being praised. I present the other side but I respect that people do not have to agree with me. 💕

            https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanityfair.com/news/2014/02/woody-allen-sex-abuse-10-facts/amp

            https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/my-father-woody-allen-danger-892572

          6. Mommypino
            Different perspectives lead to interesting discussion I think, and the ability to give them and not expect them to have to be accepted by the other party shows maturity and intelligence. Also having emotional thinking somewhat under control is necessary. I see nothing wrong with Devil’s advocate. It can allow people to stretch and challenge their thinking. That is how I have learned many things (including many things here on the blog). Unfortunately many people view discussions like that as confrontations. I appreciate your approach. I await your comments in moderation. For now, I will just say that I believe praising someone such as Allen or Carrey as people is much different than being able to appreciate the art/talent they have provided. I wonder given the number of narcissists in the field of entertainment if we would be left with much to enjoy or appreciate if we could not separate the two.

          7. Thank you NA for your kind words. I agree with all that you said. I don’t dismiss someone for being a narc or even abusive unless it reaches my personal threshold of what is unacceptable. I am a big fan of HG for example and we have read the horrible things that he has done to his exes but I can accept that this is all part of his disorder and how he knows to survive. He maintains a personal ethics such as not hurting animals and not dating or targeting anyone below a certain age etc. All of his victims even though damaged and have susceptibility to stick with him despite his abusive behavior have free will to leave but have chosen to stay. He does not abuse a helpless animal or a child. IMO his behavior does not reach my personal threshold of being pure evil with zero redeeming value. So I recognize his brilliance and recommend him to people who will benefit from his gifts. I think that these are all very subjective to each of us and even the varying perspectives on whether Woody Allen’s accusers are telling the truth or not are very unique to each of us. For example the way Bibi interpreted Dylan Farrow’s not wiping her tears was based on her past experience of watching Scott Peterson lie. I on the other hand have a different perspective because I had a different experience to base my perspective from.

          8. Thanks for the links! MP. I think you’re right to react to my comment about WA being my second favorite narc. Your opinion of him is based on this sexual assault allegation, which I hadn’t heard of, whereas mine is based on his films, at least the ones I have seen. I understand your position towards him.
            Do I think he deserves to go to jail and die there if he’s guilty of sexual assault on a child? Oh yes.
            Will I think less of his films (the ones I like)? I don’t know.
            I was reflecting on this since yesterday (Picasso also came to mind), but I am having kind of a strange day today and my mind is somewhere else.

          9. MP, I was not thinking of such extreme cases when I said I have a hard time painting people completely black or completely white. You are right, those people are painted black in my mind too. When I said I see different shades of grey everywhere, I was thinking more of the people I deal or have dealt with directly or undirectly in my life.

          10. Chris Watts has absolutely nothing brilliant to offer the world anyway. I believe HG suggested his cognitive function was that of a piss ant. He’s useless in all regards so I’m
            ok with some black/white thinking toward him! This is interesting discussion.

          11. I agree Claire, It’s too bad that there’s a moratorium on death penalty herenin Cali. He will never have remorse no matter how long he sits in jail. People will keep giving him fuel for interviews or write a book about him just like Casey Anthony. Taxpayers are even going to pay for his meals and healthcare. He is a narcissist psychopath with very little cognitive abilities.

            As for WA’s brilliance, I can honestly say that I can survive my life without watching his movies. And if his movies are all of similar caliber to Blue Jasmine, in my opinion they are pathetic, boring and excessively self-indulgent. Not my cup of tea.

          12. That Casey Anthony was a piece of work. Wonder what she and Watts would do to each other? The two of them combined only have enough fuel to power a Yugo for about 5 miles.

          13. Casey Anthony , I followed that story from beginning to end. It makes me sick to think that baby killer is free. I know there was a lot of talk about her being a Narcissist when it first happened. It certainly would not surprise me if she was.

        2. Thank you Lou, I totally understand it. I am the same way with politics anyway. My own friends hate Trump and they still like me even though they know that I’m a Trumphead. I think what makes me not like WA is because I believe that he raped a child and it makes me not like him that he didn’t pay for what he did. He never served time. It is true that people should be presumed innocent until they are proven guilty and it is true that the case never even went into court. It was just pure allegations by Dylan. But we know that there are lots of criminals who are able to get away with it vector their charm, power, status and money. And IMO he is one of them.
          I know that his movies are different and widely-acclaimed. I have only watched one movie of his—Blue Jasmine, and I hated it. It was so depressing and her antics and mannerisms are so similar to my MRE sister that it frustrated me to waste my time watching this woman who is unable to get her shit together. It was long, boring and over-indulgent. It didn’t have substance. I thought that the movie was garbage and I wasted that time of my life watching it and finishing it hoping that it will get better (just like my relationships with the narcs in my life). I can love drama-comedies too but not Blue Jasmine. Right now, a really good drama-comedy that comes to my mind is ‘Philomena’ which is much more amazingly better than Blue Jasmine. Judi Dench was amazing at her portrayal of an empath who’s son was taken from her and still had the power to forgive the evil perpetrators. Now THAT is a movie that has real substance. If you want to have an idea of how my MRE sister acted like, just watch Blue Jasmine and Cate Blanchett totally looked like her. But WA probable has better movies.

          1. Thank you all for this wonderful discussion on Woody. I really enjoyed it. Thank you =]

          2. MP, I think I didn’t even finish watching Blue Jasmine. It was in a flight and just turned it off. So I understand your dislike for WA.
            I haven’t seen Philomena yet. I am avoiding watching tv and movies for the moment.

          3. Actually I don’t want to see Philomena again. It is a great movie but it made me cry for about three days. It was really depressing. But at the same time I greatly admire the character that Judi Dench played.

  17. Pingback: The Caretaker ⋆ NarcTopia | NarcTopia
  18. On a subject that’s unrelated to this article, has anyone heard from Windstorm lately? She hasn’t commented on the blog for a while now.

    1. She is busy about other matters but emailed me to ask me to let anybody asking after her that she is well and will be back.

      1. Thanks for the information HG. If you hear from her again, please give her my regards. I miss her caring and insightful presence here.

        1. Dear WiserNow,
          Me too, my sentiments exactly
          Would you kindly please add my name to that list dear Mr Tudor😊
          Thank you muchly
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    2. Dearest WiserNow,
      Thank you for asking gorgeous
      I thought perhaps she was on holidays again (like when she went to Japan)
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. You’re welcome Bubbles. Thank you for your kind messages too xx
        Yes, she may be travelling. Otherwise, I don’t think she would just stop commenting on the site. Windstorm is a longstanding ‘regular’ here.

  19. “You showed immense reserves of discipline and strength, your depth of character was startling and it was all being used up on me.”

    Karen sounds like a strong and intelligent woman, so it makes me wonder how a woman like that would agree (in an intimate, seemingly ‘equal’ relationship) to always wait to be contacted before initiating a call herself and then to respond within one minute of being called. Or to refrain from eating before someone else eats, even though she is hungry.

    Doing these sorts of things in a close or romantic relationship without questioning why or without being resentful of such control seems strange for someone who has “depth of character”.

    HG, what school and cadre of empath did Karen belong to?

  20. Just please admit that you’ve stated you are capable of murder, or am I blocked from this site now?

      1. You said previously on another thread that you were involved with one. The blogger was asking what you felt… the answer was a no- brainer (for those who know you have no empathy)

        1. Killing and murder are two different things. People are killed in war and when committing crimes, etc. Murder implies malicious intent. It is my recollection that HG killed another in his line of duty, not murder. HG made the reference not on a thread, but a live Q & A.

          HG or K, please correct me if I am wrong.

        2. Narc noob

          The question was did he get fuel from taking someone’s life, and if so was it high potency or low grade. He said it was not the highest grade. It was a public service, not a murder. He’s a hero, I imagine.

  21. My Nex did this to me. Would a mid ranger know how to manipulate like this? I mean It’s basic psychology but would they be that calculating or think that far ahead? It’s definitely not instinctual. When I called him on it he just laughed it off, so he knew what he was doing.

  22. Well… that’s just a disgusting display of exploitation.
    Been there.
    Got the T-Shirt

    Exploited By A Narcissist
    – Peaceful

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