Twisted

 

TWISTED-2

How could you be so twisted? I gave you absolutely everything. I opened my heart to you and gave you a perfect love which is beyond compare. I let you in to my world and shared everything with you. Nothing was kept from you. I knew that you were the one, the one person who amidst all the treachery and deceit in this cruel, harsh world who would take care of me. I recognised that you would shield me and protect me from the perfidious foes that lurked seeking to destroy me. I gave you everything that I had. I poured my love into our relationship, investing in it because I knew that this time it was my soul mate who stood before me. You made me so happy because you knew what I needed. You gave me what I wanted and also what I needed and you lifted me heavenwards with that beautiful brand of love that only you can possess. Our relationship was built on the firmest of foundations and promised a glittering and marvellous future. We had so much in common. You liked what I liked and I liked what you liked. So many times I would remark to my friends that it was such serendipity that we had found one another. There is so much hurt in the world, so much darkness beyond the front door and we found one another, two shining lights that when combined we burned brightly and brilliantly.

Nobody made me feel the way you did. At times, eloquent and articulate as I am, I struggled to find the words to convey what you did for me. Your selflessness and devotion were breath-taking and naturally I reciprocated. I put you first. From the moment I rose until the moment I let slumber take me, I had you and only you in my thoughts. As our mighty empire grew around us, I planned for us both. I looked forward and constructed a happy, fulfilling and most of all loving future for us both. We had no need to look back at the past. We had both been hurt by those who acted to their own agendas. I suppose that is why we found such a need in one another and one that we could both address. It was as if we had been cut from the same cloth. Two pieces of a fabulous and stunning garment that just needed to be stitched together and once combined cloaked us in magnificence. Our brilliance was never ostentatious. Most definitely other people would look upon us and comment as to our satisfaction, but not smugness. People would remark about how happy we looked and they were genuinely delighted for us, there was no envy in their words or expressions. We had it all. We had found one another and I believed in you, I believed in us. I gave every ounce of my being to you in order to ensure that what we had did not crumble to dust. I strained every sinew, fired every synapse and poured my very essence into us. I could not have given more of myself to you. From the material to the ethereal I ensured it was all directed onto you in order to ensure you knew how deep and perfect my love for you was and is. I melded with you, combined, conjoined and became one because I knew. I knew with a certainty that I had never met before that this time, this time I had found my angel, my muse, my protector and my soul mate. Such was the treasured nature of this find that I knew I had to do everything in my power to maintain that you and I remained as one. There was no hope for anything else. I could never do anything to hurt or harm you and thus spoil this most precious union. Every waking moment was dedicated to preserving our special relationship. Each word, each act and each thought revolved around the concept of us and I wanted more than any desire that I have ever known to keep us together.

Yet you destroyed that. How could you? How could you render into the dirt and ashes what we had? How could you betray me so viciously? How could you twist what we had built together so that it was no longer recognisable? A warped and corrupted image of what had been so magnificent, so perfect and what I thought was so impregnable. You perverted our creation, the poison which flowed so readily and alarmed me with the speed by which you were able to summon it. The toxicity which clouded my vision, stinging my eyes, filling my nose and mouth as I choked on the malevolent fumes. Where did this come from? I had never seen this about you. In all the time we spent together, and we spent a lot of time together, not once did I see anything that would indicate that beneath your beauty and your tenderness lay this vast repository of hatred and malice. How could you be so twisted as to unleash all of this against me after everything that I had done for you, after everything I had done for us? It makes no sense. There is no logic in what you did, no rationale for taking what we had and then rending it apart, pouring acid upon it so it melted into awful shapes, searing it with flame so that it bubbled, cracked and split becoming something terrible and fearsome. So many times I have asked myself why did you do this? We had the world beneath us and then for some incomprehensible reason you wrapped your hands around it and began to dismantle and destroy it. No sane individual would do this would they? Only someone sick would act this way. Someone who has something very wrong with them would let me down in this way, after giving and promising so much, to then cast it all asunder. A twisted and hateful game is what you made the concept of us become and your warped actions have exacted a severe cost to my well-being. You have tried to break and destroy me. Why did you do this after all that I have given you, after everything I have done, after all the love, affection and dedication that I have shown to you? Only someone twisted could behave this way.

Do I speak these words or am I hearing them? Perhaps I speak them as they are spoken to me as I look into the mirror? Are these my words, your words or do they belong to both of us?

 

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197 thoughts on “Twisted”

  1. FYC and Mommypino,

    Thank you for all of this information. I have taken the time to read a lot of it and look up every other scientific term! It is eye opening but also somewhat depressing because even though I do believe (and as HG has said) that narcissism is a product of both genetics and environment, one does get the sense that it is impossible to correct once the damage is done (that is, if both the predisposition and the environment are in place).

    HG, has anything changed recently in your dynamic with SM? I am curious if I am reading your posts correctly both on IG and on here.

    1. Hello SMH,

      I understand your perspective, though I remain hopeful. The scientific body of study today only scratches the surface. Much more investigation must be pursued before we can know if any condition can be reversed or altered.

      Currently, interesting progress has been made helping narcissist to develop their cognitive empathy for others by using a technique that reframes experience to the viewpoint of self (the narcissist) versus other. When this is executed, the narcissist can experience actual empathy for self and extend that by way of cognition to the other. HG, as a rare ultra elite, can and does work this out on his own.

      I will share more relevant information in the future. Best regards.

      1. Hi FYC, Thanks for that additional info. It’s good to know that research is being done on this. I look forward to reading more.

        1. Me too, SMH. Given the broad interest in the topic, I believe more studies will be readily funded. The next five years should be interesting.

  2. Witch

    “but there was also valid logic behind it which is that parents have a bias towards their own parenting”

    I never said that this does not happen; in fact I concurred with your point in my second paragraph.

    You simply cannot assume that is always the case.

    1. Yes that is correct.
      However, when someone says their child was born disordered it’s not completely illogical to have my suspicions based on previous experiences of knowing people with similar perspectives.

  3. HG,

    “On the other matter, if a child who has GPD loses their parents (neither of whom are narcissists) when he is say 6 and is thus orphaned, if this environment thereafter is one conducive to the creation of a narcissist, then you have GPD and the LOCE even though there is no narcissist parent invovled and thus a narcissist will still arise in that child.”

    This thought makes me deeply sad.

    But, it also raises a question in my mind – if a five or six year old demonstrates affective empathy (wanting to ‘fix’ interpersonal disputes with peers, seeming empathy towards animals that is not attention seeking, etc.) and then, say, at age eight loses both parents (one of whom is an empath and the other a narc) and finds him/herself in an environment conducive to the creation of a narcissist – could this child develop NPD or simply more narcissistic traits?

    1. In the suggested scenario I would see his empathic resilience being sufficient to tackle the loss of the parents.

      1. HG,

        “…I would see his empathic resilience being sufficient to tackle the loss of the parents.”

        Thank-you for your answer.

  4. Is this an accurate representation of the Narcissistic Personality Dynamic we discuss on this blog?

    180—————————————–0——————————————–180
    Narcissistic Normals Empathic

    1. 180————–90————————————0———————————–90————————————-180
      Empath Grp Empathic NORMAL Narcissistic Narcissist Group

  5. I realise my comments were quite brutal and I made a lot of assumptions. I find it very frustrating when people think their child is just evil.
    I come across a lot of women who are in denial that the domestic abuse their children have witnessed has had any negeative affect on them, they don’t want to make the connection that the emotional neglect that their child has suffered because they had an abusive boyfriend, one after the other had any bearing on why their child is a menance to society. And it’s quite frustrating.
    if your child in living in the same house, they know what’s going on and yes it’s affecting them.

    1. Witch,

      “I come across a lot of women who are in denial that the domestic abuse their children have witnessed has had any negeative affect on them”

      I’m sorry that is the case in your experience; it is saddening and sobering to think that this is a regular phenomenon. You are right; it certainly does happen – but to assume (as you admit) that this is the case in Kel’s comments is a reflection of your own emotional thinking.

      Also, in defense of some parents; it’s complicated why some children turn out the way that they do (as HG’s work highlights) – although no one would say that ‘abuse’ in the formative stages of life has a positive influence. Also, some types of abuse are not ‘obvious’ at the get-go (with or without children in the situation)…if it were obvious; we wouldn’t all be here searching for answers.

      1. I agree, my assumptions were a reflection of my emotional thinking, but there was also valid logic behind it which is that parents have a bias towards their own parenting. Ask the children and you find different answers.

    2. Hi Witch, I have read the exchange. I appreciate that you acknowledged your ET and that you came as very abrasive with the way you delivered your response. It does happen to me too and I’m working on that as well. I can understand where you are coming from. And there is a logical reason behind which got lost in the abrasive delivery. I agree with you to a point but there are also factors that are beyond the primary caregivers’ control. There are instances when the brain of a child is really different from the beginning. One case that I could think of right now is fetal alcohol syndrome and how it affects the child’s temperament for life. The child is not a narcissist but there was damage in the brain resulting from the mother drinking alcohol during pregnancy that exceeded what the fetus can tolerate in terms of its development. My dad had an adopted brother who had temperamental problema from the beginning. Both my grandparents were empaths, just the nicest people who had the best intentions for that kid. They even bought him a bicycle which they purposely didn’t buy my dad one so that the boy would feel that he has something that my dad didn’t have. But none of their efforts helped him. He became alcoholic and went to jail a few times and borrowed money from my grandparents which he never paid. We just can’t control everything. Sometimes there are also outside influences that are very strong such as narcissist grandparents or co-parents who undermine everything that you are trying to teach your kids. All that parents can do is to try their best.

      1. I appreciate your understanding and I understand your example. I agree with you, that there are also outside influences. It probably came across like I was saying “it’s all the mothers fault” and I’m not.
        I’m a big supporter of mothers having witnessed a lot of what single mothers go through.
        There’s also a difference between blame and responsibility. When I’m talking about responsibility sometimes that gets misinterpreted as blame!
        For example, we are not to blame for our experiences with narcissists, which is why we are all here, however we have a responsibility to learn about them and protect ourselves from them now that we know what they are. <—-this is not victim blaming

        1. Hi switch, Thank you for clarifying that you don’t mean to say that it’s all the mother’s fault. It did come across that way. As empaths we tend to be protective of children and sometimes that can lead to emotional reactions. I agree with you about motherhood and how hard it is especially for single moms.

          1. For a long time, ‘cold’ mothers were thought to be the cause of their children’s autism. Of course now we know that is not the case but there is still some guilt about it.

          2. SMH, that’s so true. I remember that. And even up to now, moms of autistic kids still get judged by bystanders who see an unusual behavior and had no idea about the autism. I remember a viral video taken by a bystander of a mom dragging a young child who was screaming and she was man handling him to take him with her. There was so much uproar only for her to come out and say that he’s autistic and told what was really going on.

          3. Hi Mommypino, Yes but then there are also some truly twisted parents out there – like the pair who were just jailed for keeping their 14 kids chained to their beds with no food or showers or the couple who drove their adopted kids off a cliff. Sick, sick, sick. I think sometimes we do not get involved because we are afraid of misstepping. It’s hard to know what to do or how to do it if you do see something that appears to be wrong. Even family members might not know. Only neighbours would know in cases where the children are ‘home schooled.’ Child abuse by parents is rampant.

          4. I’m am very much more of a “man hater”
            I’m bisexual and refuse to date men because I would rather give my intimacy, money etc to my own kind.
            I just have my criticisms of “heterosexual culture” and how the family is constructed under it.
            Ideally i believe we should live a more community based lifestyle, where we help raise each other’s children so that all the pressure is not placed on the mother.
            However, I realise this is just an ideal thought and for a few reasons not practical on a large scale.

            @smh
            Why do a lot of people around here seem to compare autism to personally disorders? Autism is not a personality disorder, it’s a disability.
            Where as how you raise your children does have an impact on whether or not they develop a personality disorder. Experience has an impact on personality disorders, not for autism.

          5. Hi Witch, I know how you raise your children does not have an impact on autism. I was just pointing out that many decades ago mothers were wrongly accused of causing autism and how far science in this area has come.

          6. Hi Witch, I personally don’t understand why some women have become ‘man haters’. That is probably my personal reason why I don’t go around telling people that I’m a feminist. I do support women in my life but I don’t think that I should buy a product because the business owner is a woman. I will buy a product if it’s good. I will not vote for someone because she’s a woman. I will vote for someone if I agree with that person’s platform. I think I’m more of a humanist and not a feminist. I believe that women endure a lot of unequal treatment, but I don’t think that giving a reverse unequal treatment is the answer. We shouldn’t right a wrong with another wrong. There’s no better sex or gender, we are all equal but at the same time different.
            I think that you have a very noble intention about your thoughts in helping raise each other’s children. But I agree that it is not realistic and more of a utopian ideal. I have had my personal criticisms on the ‘it takes a village to raise a child’ philosophy. I think that the primary caregivers are the best people who know and understand the child (in most cases, not all). I think that we can help moms but only to an extent. I think that it is better for children to have a stronger bond with their primary caregivers instead of several people. Children should look up to the primary caregivers as the main authority and source of their identity. And also the support that we should give the moms should be more limited to just empowering them and giving them confidence. I think that a strong and confident mom can do more wonderful things for a child’s self-esteem than an entire village. But that is my personal opinion. I personally don’t want anybody telling me how I should raise my kids. If I need help I will buy a book or ask for advice. One example that I think of where people might disagree with my way is spanking. I do spank my kids. One spank only and as a last resort but it’s super effective. It doesn’t hurt them because it’s just one small spank but when they are testing my authority and the nice mom approach doesn’t work, they immediately behave when I threaten with a spank because they know that I always follow through. And the last thing that I want is an outsider might see that and tell me in front of my kids that I am a mean mom. But I partly agree with you because in the case of children of narcissists, other people like teachers or neighbors showing them love, respect, and support does help a lot and teach them a behavior that they can aim for.

          7. I am against others helping raise my children for obvious reasons and have paid dearly to defend that stance.

            I also suspected for some time my husband had asperger’s. We now have a few books on it.

          8. There is no comparison between the two, by SMH or anyone else, so nothing to get, it’s the understanding of most posters that they don’t know everything they’re looking at. I don’t “get” hating a gender.

          9. Nunya biz, I don’t hate a gender – if that was directed to me. I also don’t know what you mean by there not being any comparison between the two – do you mean narcissism and Aspergers? I have no idea really, having limited experience with both, but they can present in similar ways. There is lots of discussion about this on this and other threads.

          10. No, sorry SMH, it wasn’t directed at you.
            I related to your comments about thinking asperger’s, I thought similar for a long time. Not that they are the same, but that my spouse might be on the spectrum. I had meant to mention you made a good insight about motivation being evident with the detection of manipulation (avoiding responsibility, etc). I think you are right, the difference probably lies in there.

          11. I agree with most of what you said, MP, relating to attachment theory and identity formation. Too many “lead” inputs is confusing at a young age. Also, regarding your spanking philosophy, my opinion is that some details are actually not as important (because it is usually difficult for one way of doing things to be the most right) as trust in consistency and intention, which is in line with what you say about people calling you a “mean mom” (that would be detrimental to the kids to believe that you are). I do have a rule that my kids are not allowed to spend any significant time around anyone who threatens their trust in the parent/child bond with me or who sets on a course of identity confusion. For example I had my daughter removed from a classroom that was poorly run by an N teacher and in which a narrative started where her behavior needed medicating (she was in there for zero more days after that was brought up).

            That being said, her behavior being criticized with reachable goals is a different story. And additionally depending on any gray area I may encourage her to tough through while offering perspective. I also refused to allow her to spend time at someone’s house who called me “crazy” repeatedly. It is incorrect and I won’t allow confusion of her perceptions regarding her primary caregiver.

            This stuff is very instinctive for me and I believe has created a a more stable identity for the kids than would be in spite of other issues. And that is why your individual parenting choices are yours and shouldn’t be judged by “mommy shamers” like we can see on social media.
            Also, I do have anger at some current gender issues and I think women’s issues are not dealt with in the way they should be at all, but I’m hoping for change. Underneath everything I believe that most of what is bad for women is also bad for men. I think men have different issues to manage also. And for sex partners for me it’s kinda like your voting, no politics in the bedroom (power plays, yes please!).
            I’ve been with women though, I’m passionately pro sexual freedom.

            Just rambling thoughts on parenting, I liked your post MP.

        2. Hi Nunya,

          I would be lying if I said I literally hate the opposite sex, because I do not wish to harm them.
          From experience I have less trust and hope in them. So out of compassion for them and myself I choose not to invest in them romantically.
          I am more comfortable with my own kind.
          They are socialised differently so there is a lack of understanding.
          I am jaded but I also think I’m realistic.
          And there have been a few comments flying around saying that narcissists are autistic.

          1. Oh I see. Well as far as the autism question I am not SMH and I don’t have special knowledge of autism nor I do I know what specific comments you are referring to, but I assume it is related to emotional frustration with a perceived lack of intuition toward their feelings for excessive amounts of time.

            As far as trust in the opposite gender it goes back to my desire to avoid community raising of my son. While I make mistakes and cannot have an environment that is perfect in terms of psychological development I feel that manipulation and controlling behavior toward children can take very subtle and insidious forms and prefer to highly manage outside influence and I don’t personally see that as an option, my maternal responses are visceral. The narcissist almost never thinks they are one and usually thinks they know better, which is a paradox only managed by refusal and boundaries.

          2. Nunya Biz, maybe I am misreading but I think you are confusing me with someone else or maybe Witch is confusing me with someone else? I don’t have any deep personal knowledge of autism or Aspergers.

          3. Hi nunya
            Yes I do see your point about the dangers of negeative influences through community raising. This is one of the reasons I thought of as to why it’s not always practical, along with the risk of sexual abuse.
            On the other hand, if the parents are, for whatever reason, unable to meet the needs of the child and they receive appropriate support from a community, that may help to counteract the development of psychological disorders in the child.

          4. No SMH, again I apologize, I was only referring to Witch’s question about what you said about Asperger’s and responding myself. I wasn’t saying you have special knowledge about it, I was saying that I don’t- or that you hate a gender, I was referring to Witch’s comment about her being a “man-hater” type. (She responded with her own explanation).

            I was making my own point about her question to you, that’s why I said “I am not SMH” and “I don’t have special knowledge” …. because I was saying “I am jumping in with an opinion, but I am not the person you asked and my opinion is limited to my experience”.

            None of it really had anything to do with you in my comment, but I was saying that it is actually easy to think someone has a different disorder or disability than the one they actually have. I think it happens all the time and can happen with a variety of disorders, diseases, and disabilities. One thing presents as something else, it doesn’t mean people think the two things are the same, the error is in perception not in definition.

            The reason I was answering the way I was is because of the way I read Witch’s comment. It didn’t strike me exactly as requesting information so much as making an assumption that people should know the difference. If so, I am wary of an assumption like that because it doesn’t seem realistic.

            The point I was trying to make is this…
            I didn’t think that people mentioning asperger’s in terms of the narcissist has anything to do with thinking they are the same condition, but it has to with some overlapping tendencies that can make it hard for someone in an emotional situation to distinguish. Combine that with extreme exasperation and a desire to fix, explain, or even excuse and there is the likely reason. I don’t know enough about it to know about co-morbidity or anything further, but that is all I was trying to say.

            I could be wrong about what other people mean when they say it, but I figured someone would clarify or detail their own reasons because that was Witch’s question. Like I said in another comment, I had the same difficulty with my spouse and thinking he might have asperger’s (I still don’t purport to know everything, so who knows what goes on in other people), so I was just stating my impression of why people would have confusion. But if anyone wants to distinguish their own thoughts in answer to the question as different from mine, please do. I thought you did a good job explaining yourself and I agreed with what you said.

            I made another comment that went to another spot telling you that I understood your comment and related to it, I’m not sure if you saw it.

          5. Hi Nunya Biz, I see now. Thanks for explaining. I think it must be difficult to be married to someone with Aspergers too. And as you say, in an emotional situation, you (or anyone) just wants to know what is wrong and how to ‘fix’ it or if it can be fixed. Either situation (narcissist or Aspergers) would be lonely.

          6. SMH, yes in my case he can be kind, helpful, funny, and very easygoing. Which makes me think I’m crazy for the times I’m unhappy. But I also know that he has truly ignored me in painful ways for periods of time that are mind-boggling to me. As if he has decided that I am a talking head, like he simply cannot relate to what I am saying even though he will to my face nod and agree with me. It could go for months. Loneliness was pervasive for me during those times. He has a few things that made me think of Asperger’s, one is that he sometimes would stand too close to me, another is that he has what almost seems like a mild “echolalia” (repeating what I said back to me or another word) and another is an apparent inability to process complicated auditory input (and HELLO I can really TALK, I am quite articulate). I’m not saying those things are Asperger’s, just that they don’t seem like normal processing.
            The things that made me think narcissism are that he could freeze me out for a very long time and that he is teflon with taking responsibility. Like his role in something doesn’t even register. Sometimes it would make logical sense to him that I was saying something he did and he would acknowledge it, but I learned over many years of repeating the same thing that he does not truly hear me and that anything that registers is temporary. He is very good at faking agreement. I think he actually thinks he’s agreeing. Frequently decisions he has made over the years have been what he thinks is right and do include what he thinks is right for other people and he just never registered that some of it could be under-informed. He just assumes he knows. It’s not aggressive, it’s passive, he just thinks he knows. Part of my difficulty was that he never necessarily had bad intentions. I related somewhat to some of what MB described about her husband.

            Anyway, he’s improved with some things and I’ve talked to him a lot about empathy, he seems to currently understand he doesn’t really have it the way that I do and that my life experience is different. It is not worth 17 years to explain this to someone and I don’t recommend it. Along with the fact that I’ve always been a somewhat erratic person who needed stability more than anything, the challenges suck, but I can say that I probably never was realistically equipped to avoid these relationship problems. I think it makes sense I ended up in this relationship because it seemed different than what I’d experienced before, like I was making a good decision. The times I feel least lonely with him are when he jokes about himself lately. He made a martyr-ish comment a couple of weeks ago about something he had to do that I would have been happy to help with if he asked, but he has a habit of acting like I’m not there in some ways, so then he saw the impatient look on my face he stopped and said “and then after that I have to nail myself to a cross” and laughed and went back to what he was doing. Sort of relieves the tension of feeling misunderstood.

          7. Nunya Biz,

            It sounds like Aspergers to me. I am no expert but I did read up a lot on it. Your husband’s role doesn’t register because he is mind-blind/lacks empathy. From your description, his behavior overall appears to be due to obliviousness or an inability to sustain (forgetfulness?) rather than mal-intent. I have a psychologist friend who believes that she was married to an Aspie for years. He would do some of the things you describe, and also that my narc would do, for instance leaving a virtual conversation without signing off in any way. I know this guy and I find him completely without malice but also completely self-centered and oblivious.

            Some of what you describe could apply to my MRN too but I also noticed that when he wanted to, for instance, he could write up a storm. When he wanted to, he could and would sit and listen (he also talked a lot and had a good sense of humour). When he wanted to, he would stay in touch. When he wanted to, he would post his own photos on IG without copying IPPS. He never repeated back to me what I said. He could carry on quite normal conversations online and in person.

            A lot of what he did not want to do was out of lack of caring or to assert his control over me, not lack of ability or understanding. He told me whopper lies when we first met (fake name, fake email, fake marital status) and sustained those for quite awhile. That takes a mind more devious than an Aspie would have.

            He was aware there was something wrong with him but not what it was. He knew he lacked emotions, he knew he was superficial (even warned me about it), he knew he seemed like two different people, he knew that people eventually reacted poorly to him. He knew all of this.

            As you point out, this is not normal processing or easy to handle. But it’s the intentionality and deliberate manipulations that make the difference.

            I think there are support groups for women married to Aspies. I noticed them when I was looking for information. That suggests that there are lots of women in your position. Some of them cannot take it anymore but others have learned ways to cope and maybe change some of the partner’s behavior. Might be worth checking out for you, especially if there are good things about your marriage. x

          8. Hi mommypino,
            I don’t believe feminism is about voting for someone because they are female but recognising the injustice that 99.9% of the candidates to vote for are males.
            I understand the emotional response of “man hating” because men and women are socialised differently and while empathy and care giving are valued in females; a male would be viewed as a “sissy” a “wimp” “gay (with a negative view of being gay)” for being highly empathetic.
            They may experience bullying and outcasting from their male peers. Their parents would be anxious that they would turn out to be gay. Their fathers would accuse their mothers of softing the male child by providing “too much” affection.
            Ideologically we are equal, in reality we are not treated that way. Male narcissism is celebrated and encouraged socially, culturally, religiously on a global scale.
            I’d be interested to know how many male narcissists (not narcissistic but narcissists) HG comes across in comparison to female narcissists. Especially the lesser more violent varieties.
            I imagine HG has a very wide ranging dating pool when it comes to finding highly empathetic females and that is not only because their are 8billion people on the planet but it is partly because of gendered socialisation.
            I’ve witnessed a lot of women having to struggle as single parents, while the father believes it’s the duty of the mother to do most of the domestic labour and if they are looking after the children they are “babysitting.” When how are they baby sitting when it’s THEIR KID!? Then they want to use child support as a bargaining chip.
            I don’t have time for it. I understand not all men are like that, but… it’s all too common.
            I do not regret having opted out of that b*****ks.

          9. Thank you SMH, that is really helpful. I think there are things along these lines that are accurate and that there are fine lines in some areas.
            He has done some very hurtful things and has pointedly ignored me when he thinks he should be able to for his own logical reasons. I tend to think it is some mental blindness issue rather than a control issue, but some of the effects are the same. He was adopted by two N parents and has three siblings, two of which are N’s.
            I know what you mean about the mal-intent. I had been with a guy who did what you described, the lying etc… I’ve been with several N’s for sure.
            My husband comes across differently to me, so I’ve never been able to sort it. As it stands we’ve not had sex in a year. I am considering going to counseling with him as he said he wanted to, I just have some major mental blocks. He did fetishize me sexually early on in the marriage and made some choices that alienated me from connecting with him intimately. Some of them I’ve a really hard time getting past. Even recently he withheld information (essentially lying) and I feel my trust has been betrayed too many times. By now I’ve made so many mistakes and compensations myself, but he is there and when we get along I feel like we are friends. He has changed some things recently in a bid to be supportive to me and it means a lot, he is his pleasant, agreeable self. There is only so much I can do though to try to return to a “normal” marriage.

            Yes, he is different from what you describe in that he cannot suddenly “choose” to communicate. I have to sort of knock him into it and it requires me getting into a stressful state. He has NEVER been able to remind me he loves me or what he likes about me or anything like that. Most gifts have been thoughtless. Most people don’t see that as an issue but have never lived with someone like that. He just shows up and walks around.

            “I know this guy and I find him completely without malice but also completely self-centered and oblivious.”

            This is how you would find my husband. The exact same as this and he is very pleasant. But my friend of many years did also until she heard him being awful to me while I was on the phone with her once. She was surprised. He doesn’t get that bad anymore, but in that moment she heard him treating me how he was when he was just “done” with me and didn’t care about my feelings at all (I think MB described some similar type stuff?). I have seen him have a switch that goes on and off, but like I said, he doesn’t do that anymore so obviously, but the obliviousness of course never disappears, so it comes out with some other hurtful thing, for example a year ago we had agreed he would go out one evening and he went, but he knew our electricity had gone out and me and the kids were in the dark. I called him to discuss it and figure out what to do but he was “out” and in his mind he was going to respond when that part of his life was finished. It hurt me but he just didn’t see why because I knew he’d be out and agreed to it.
            Thank you for “listening”, it has helped me to discuss. I will be able to figure it out in my own way, but it is complicated because I feel out of the bounds of normal relationships at this point and it’s hard to get understanding, people like to over simplify or point fingers or something so I just don’t talk about it and there’s usually no empathy for the feelings and emotional needs involved. I really appreciate your comment and will reread it and I may do some online poking around.

  6. HG, If a child is raised by a parent suffering from mental illness, and the other parent died when the child was 8 years old; let’s assume that child has a narcissistic GPD (being that you identified her as a narcissist) then a narcissistic parent is not automatic in the formula for the creation of the narcissistic offspring. So this still satisfies the formula of GPD + LOCE = NPD. Correct? Also, I misread the above response to the creation of an empath. I think you are saying a particular of narcissist is involved, not school of empath?

    1. You do not need a narcissist to be involved to create certain schools of empath.

      On the other matter, if a child who has GPD loses their parents (neither of whom are narcissists) when he is say 6 and is thus orphaned, if this environment thereafter is one conducive to the creation of a narcissist, then you have GPD and the LOCE even though there is no narcissist parent invovled and thus a narcissist will still arise in that child.

  7. Hello all, Since the earlier post this year of “To Control is to Cope”, I have pursued more research on the genetics. Hopefully these summations will be helpful to the commenters discussions below.

    The short answer:

    Genes do not specify behavior directly, but rather encode molecular products that build and govern the functioning of the brain through which behavior is expressed. Brain development, brain activity and behavior depend on both inherited and environmental influences, and there is increasing appreciation that social information can in turn impact brain gene expression and behavior. Furthermore, variation in behavior shapes the evolution of genomic elements that influence social behavior through the feedback of natural selection. (Robinson, et al 2019)

    The specifics:

    On dementia:
    In dementia, researchers found that lack of a gene called “lysine specific histone demethylase 1 (LSD1) triggers brain cell death, leading to cognitive abnormalities comparable to those seen in people with Alzheimer’s disease and frontotemporal dementia (FTD).” (Katz, et al)

    In Alzheimer’s, it is the occurrence of the retention of Beta Amyloid in the brain that attacks the synapses prior to creating plaques and tangles. (For those interested, a new test can determine up to 30 years prior if a person will develop Alzheimers by testing the presence of this protein indicating a lack of the ability to flush this protein effectively.)

    On genetics:
    Chromosomes come in pairs (one from each parent). All cells in the human body (except red blood cells) contain chromosomes. A gene is located on a chromosome. Genes specify certain proteins that make up each cell. Every factor of inheritance is due to a specific gene. Genes contain DNA. DNA is the basis of heredity. Genes contain two pairs of alleles. Alleles are responsible for gene expression. Generally speaking, a child is likely to share 50% of DNA with a parent or full sibling, however, due gene expression, a sibling can have far more or far less shared genes (more unusual). Technically, siblings can even have no shared genes, but this is extremely rare.

    On Paternal Influence:
    With regard to genes, we have more activated genes of the father than the mother.

    On Maternal Influence:
    The mother plays a critical role in gene expression for the child. Lack of loving attunement with a child between the ages of 0-6 has direct influence over the activation of gene expression (igniting the gene alleles). Further, the mother either supports or destroys the infants conceptualization of “true self”. In the absence of acceptance of true self, reliance upon the false self emerges too early and is utilized as a defense mechanism for survival (ie, narcissism and APD are activated).

    At birth, we have all of our brain cells (neurons) that we will have in adulthood, but it is the connections (synapses) between these cells that truly make the brain work. In early childhood, ages 0-5, over a million synapses are created every second. Surprisingly, even higher functions such as self-regulation, motivation, problem solving and communication are developed at the time. It is much harder (not impossible) to develop these skills at a later time. So, at the time we are literally forming the all important skill providing synapses, scientists note that if we have a mother that does not affirm our true self we may actually NOT develop certain synapses.

    On fMRI Scans:
    fMRI scans of narcissists and APD individuals show not a lack of brain cells nor brain death, but a lack of activity upon stimulus. This lack of stimulus may be due to the creation of necessary synapses (as discussed above) or due to a pattern of learned stimulous/response. More research is required to effectively support direct correlations.

    In summation:
    HG is absolutely correct. Science to date confirms BOTH heritability and behavioral influence are required to ignite what is known as Narcissism and APD. If anyone would like links to the above referenced research I would be happy to share them.

    1. FYC thank you very much for taking the time to obtain the evidence in support of what I have repeatedly explained (albeit in more straightforward terms to assist people). I appreciate you doing so. I will be interested to see the response to this careful and credible piece of work from certain readers.

      1. HG, You are most welcome. Actually, you deserve the credit, as you inspired this research due to your earlier post and our resulting discussion. I am happy to share the result and grateful I acquired the knowledge. Thank you and best regards.

    2. FYC
      Thank you, it was an interesting read and I didn’t fade to black like I usually do with medical information. The most important takeaway was that both genetics and environment are in play in developing narcissism, but interestingly enough I found a few that may have had, or may yet have, an effect on my gene encoding also:

      I’m hoping to avoid dementia due to some experimenting with LSD early on.

      If I share 50% DNA from either parent, and if at birth I had all of the brain cells that I would have as an adult, was 100% fucked from day one.

      1. NarcAngel, you are certainly welcome, and I’m glad it was not too painful a read. I laughed at your final analysis. You are not fucked at all! You may have suffered a fucked up set of circumstances and survived a childhood of serious dysfunctional behavior, but you clearly triumphed. You are strong. You thrive. You give back. And I hope you have healed as well.

        As for your genetics, if I recall correctly, your father (or stepfather?) is NPD and your mother is a coD. So my assumption in your case is you did not get the N gene. Your environment may have contributed to your narcissistic elements, but you put them to good use from what I have read thus far.

      2. NA, you will be relieved to know, I Googled drugs correlated with dementia/Alzheimer’s disease (D/A) and found that current studies show no direct evidence of a link between LSD and D/A. That said, *chronic* use of certain OTC and prescriptive meds do show a positive correlation as a contributing factor to D/A. These include alcohol, tobacco, sleeping aides, opioids, diazepam, diphenhydramine (found in NyQuil and ZzzQuil and Benedryl), cocaine and cannabis, etc. Not sure of the degree to which each influences onset of D/A. Other contributing factors are obisity and high blood pressure.

        1. FYC
          Haha. You got that was a take on your 3rd paragraph re: dementia and LSD1 and came back at me. Love that. In reality I think I’m safe due to all things in moderation.

    3. FYC,
      That is very interesting and informative. Thank you very much for your comment and for doing the research required. It makes me think how complex the subject of “personality” is. There are numerous different biological aspects involved. And that’s before you add the many potential effects of parenting and environmental conditions.

      1. Thank you, WiserNow, and you are very welcome. Actually personality development is a different area and vastly interesting. We are very complex indeed!

        1. FYC
          I am doing very well, thanks. Your research was very thorough and I really appreciate that. When I have the time, I am going to compose a new and improved empath limerick from scratch.

          1. K

            There once was an Empath named K
            A Librarian all through the day
            But at night in Tudor Towers
            She acquired super powers
            And assisted others in finding their way.

          2. NA. Lol. BRAVO. ENCORE. (Roses being thrown) you could do a coffee table book

          3. NarcAngel
            Ha ha ha…that is awesome! I love it and it’s much better than the one I lost, too!

    4. FYC, This is so well written. Thank you for explaining it so well. I just saw this now hours after I commented earlier b I didn’t bother to scroll down. I’m glad that you explained about the gene expression (I used the wrong word-extracted in my comment earlier) because merely carrying the genes doesn’t automatically make one a psychopath or a narcissist. These genes need to be expressed just like what James Fallon explained and the expression of these genes is from the environmental factors. It is so important that you mentioned about the role of the mother and the development of synapses or brain connections (integrations) during the first few years of a child. I have read Brain Rules for Babies written by a neuroscientist and The Whole-Brain Child which cited studies that support how loving touches, soothing calm voice, and caring attention from the caregivers do affect the wiring of the brain of a child.
      I love that you said that it is not about a lack of brain cells because I wanted to comment on that to. It is more about the wiring of the brain; the brain cells are present but there is no activity in certain areas because the person didn’t develop the proper integration or use of those parts. That’s why they evolved into adulthood as someone whose brains function as having no need for love or attachment etc. Even conflict management, resolution, healthy acceptance of emotions are taught by the primary caregiver to a child which wires the child’s brain.

      1. Hello Mommypino, Thank you for sharing your kind and detailed response. I appreciate your contributions as well (and for sharing the pubmed studies you found previously). I find this area of study extremely fascinating and continue to pursue a greater understanding. I think you may enjoy sciencedaily.com. It curates the latest research studies and is user friendly.

        I am currently investigating the scientific underpinnings of empathy. I will post a comment on what I have learned soon.

        1. You’re welcome FYC! I can’t wait to read what you find out about the scientific underpinnings of empathy!

    5. FYC, I like your information, thank you!
      In your summation, you say that science confirms heritability is required to ignite NPD and APD. I was under the assumption that there is considerable speculation and many theories about the causes of NPD. Maybe you referred to a specific research? If so, I would be interested!

      1. Hello Shesaw, You are correct, there are many extant theories on the origins of narcissism. Most are psychological/behavioral theory.

        My comment, “both heritability and behavioral influence are required to ignite what is known as Narcissism and APD,” is in reference to genetic and neuroscientific evidence on the matter.

        I have not saved all studies I have read, but I did provide some of the links I referenced that were directly quoted. If you and other readers are interested, I will save more links and share them as I continue my studies, if this is desirable.

        I would like to hear HG’s thoughts on the matter as I do not want to detract from the far more important purpose of this blog (to recognize narcissists, understand their motivations, learn how to avoid and escape abuse, become F.R.E.E. and remain ever resisting).

        Thank you.

        1. Thank you FYC, knowledge is part of the healing proces, don’t you think? 😉
          The links you provided were all about genetics in general + Alzheimer, not about NPD, hence my curiosity. Thanks anyway!

          1. Yes, shesaw, it certainly is for me.

            I will need to backtrack in my searches. I will offer more links shortly.

  8. “Think of it as a spectrum…”

    Okay. I will try.
    Thank-you for your patience in answering my questions.

  9. HG,

    “Her genetic situation was ineffect close to GPD but not GPD,…”

    I know genetics are complicated however I get stuck on this statement above since, to me, it is like saying “you’re a little bit pregnant” – because either you are pregnant or you are not.

    Thank-you for that explanation though. I do understand the intricacies of baking a cake – and I’m enjoying the irony of ‘baking discussion’ being your chosen example 😀

    1. Think of it as a spectrum rather than a ‘you are or you are not’ scenario. As you know, you can be narcissistic but not be a narcissist.

      1. HG and WhoCares

        I love this exchange. A clear demonstration of articulating and requesting a respectful and concise clarification rather than insulting or challenging, and the resulting considered and clear (with examples) explanation.

        1. Indeed. This is a place for varying ideas, questions and observations. I will often disagree and will explain why. I encourage people to express their views and to do so in a fair-minded and constructive way. Ask all your like and doing so in a respectful manner will result in you getting the best from the experience. Do not be upset or disheartened if/when I disagree and do not be upset/disheartened by my directness and succinct approach – needs must.

        2. NarcAngel,

          Thanks for your observations. I love so many of the ongoing conversations on Narcsite.

          I have learned so much here. Not just with regard to my entanglement (and what the hell that was all about) and a lot about myself. Plus, (I don’t speak a lot about it here because they are such ‘controversial’ topics for some) HG’s work on Narcissism has very much informed and illuminated a lot of questions I’ve had about psychology in general and the phenomenon of religion – both of which I have personal interest in and some formal education in. His understanding of narcissists and narcissism in general is immediately applicable in most people’s lives and has much broader ramifications. Finally, I’ve seen how his work is accurate in my personal life – which makes me a very eager student to learn more!

  10. HG,

    “1. No genetic predisposition (“GPD”) and lack of control environment (“LOCE”) = no narcissist.”

    In Chained you explain a Codependent as one on their way to becoming a narcissist (that assumes a genetic predisposition) and I believe you have stated that your sister is a Codependent.

    In now stating that she would fall under scenario #1; you’re suggesting that she never had a predisposition?

    “Hence I was 3, my brother and sister 1.”

    Have I misunderstood somewhere?

    1. If my sister had a GPD she would have become a narcissist. Her genetic situation was in effect close to GPD but not GPD, hence the formation of narcissism commenced but was arrested/stunted/failed to develop. Think akin to baking a cake – the oven temperature is correct but the ingredients are close but not just right, so the cake does not turn out as it ought to have done.

      You could also have someone who has a GPD to narcissism and the environment causes them to develop towards narcissism but something alters in that environment so the narcissism does not occur. A little akin to baking a cake – the ingredients are right but part way through the oven is switched off so again the cake does not turn out as it ought to have done.

          1. Emp, forgive me for responding in your place, but I can’t resist! Q – “Are you now hungry?!” R – “Always…how many calories does that cake have?”

      1. The baking analogy is helpful to me. I assume it’s about how subtly complex the interplay of several genes as well as epi-gentics is.
        I’m still not understanding some of what makes an empath because it almost seems like you are saying that a person cannot be an empath without some of the elements of narcissism or narcissist exposure?

        1. Your second sentence is absolutely accurate.

          As for the creation of the empath, there does not need to necessarily be narcissist exposure (but if there is, this will result in a particular school of narcissist) for an empath to be created.

          1. HG

            “As for the creation of the empath, there does not need to necessarily be narcissist exposure (but if there is, this will result in a particular school of narcissist) for an empath to be created.”

            Which school of Empath?

            I am actually hesitant to asked this……

          2. E & L, I have a similar guess. Although HG said previously that one doesn’t automatically become a codependent if raised by narcissists. Although I can feel that I have codependent tendencies (I was raised by a narc), I don’t think that I am a codependent. This is another article that I’m looking forward to seeing.

          3. Oh wait, I probably misunderstood. Maybe HG meant that for an empath to be created with exposure to a narcissist, the narcissist that the empath has been exposed to has to come from a particular school. Is it the Mid-range? So that probably means I’m actually a Normal and not an Empath because I was raised by a Lesser? I can’t wait for that article HG!

          4. Mommypino

            I took it that HG was saying an Empath would have to be exposed to a specific narcissist to be created.

  11. I’m sure, and many won’t believe because it’s not what they were taught, that narcissist’s are born. I know this from my own experience with my own newborn. They are born with something missing, a missing connection, and they are born with entitlement, superiority, and a smugness. Narcissism is genetic either way you believe, whether it’s that they were born or that it’s developed in childhood. MRI’s show physical proof amygdala is deficient and abnormal in narcissists. I don’t believe their brain becomes deficient in childhood, but that they were born with this physical defect. Prior to the brain scans discovery, people had theorized that narcissism developed from either childhood abuse or from being spoiled and doted over too much- well that is opposite and pretty much finds a way to cover it from all corners- but it’s not accurate to me.

    A narcissist has a different perception of the way people behave with them than empaths do. And it’s highly likely too that if a person is born with narcissism that there is a good chance there’s a narcissist parent and even grandparents at home with them. An empath endures a lot of mental abuse by that family and is able to keep a level head- they have the same gene pool- but their brains don’t become deficient in amygdala. The narcissist child sees a situation differently than the empath siblings, they are slighted whereas the empaths aren’t, the narcissist feels harshly wounded whereas the empath standing alongside them takes it in stride.

    I say this from my own personal experience with a child that was born disconnected and independent, not cuddly huggy, that was entitled, defiant and manipulative as a toddler. Here I am an empath, but we were at my narcissist’s mother’s house temporarily at the time, and like something out of Children of the Corn, this toddler instinctively knew how to get her way -with a sneer on her face no less- using my mother, and my mother in turn ensnared her for her own purposes. No – there was no child abuse going on to create her and no excessive doting over.

    You can have your own opinions from what you’ve been taught in the past or googled and all the old theories, but I’m an empath mother and I know what I’ve experienced first hand, which was long before the MRI proof of a narcissist’s amygdala.

    When my narcissist brother came out of the closet and we were discussing his homosexuality, I asked him if it was a choice. He flared up: Of course it’s not a choice, why would I choose this? I think the same is true of narcissism. My cerebral brother and I grew up in the same home with the same gene pool, my brain didn’t lose its amygdala and I’m pretty sure I’ve got a good dollop of healthy narcissism in me despite the overriding empath traits. My brother and I usually had the same opinions on issues, we were on the same wavelength, but he was a narcissist and I wasn’t.

    My daughter to this day is a hypochondriac. She’s angered doctors who have told her outright that she is. She can’t believe them. I’ve talked to her about my mother’s narcissism since she’s living with her, now that mom has dementia, and she completely understands it and can see it in her grandmother. Knowing about it has helped her deal with my mother much better without being wounded by her as harshly. I think every narcissist knows there’s something up with them. They don’t explore it to try to figure it out. They are a little puzzled by it but they ignore it, and continue on blindly with their narcissism.

    1. Kel

      I agree with you.
      I believe it is genetic and why they all operate from the same book is due to learning the behaviors from someone close to them which in turn develops the narcissist.
      I don’t believe they all develop into a narcissist thou. Environment has an effect on things to.

      1. I agree Twilight, I think you can lessen their narcissistic tendencies by the way you raise them. You can’t fill in those missing brain cells that give us empathy, but you can teach them cognitive empathy.

        1. Kel

          I think it is more teaching them different ways that are constructive vs destructive in acquiring their fuel. Cognitive empathy is needed so they understand, so I see your point.

      2. Twilight, if a narcissist is genetics only, are you saying that a narcissist child born than taken away from their narcissist parent and raised in a healthy environment will never develop narcissist behavior?

        1. Mercy

          No I believe they will develop better coping mechanism and the genetic disposition of narcissism will never develop the narcissistic self defense mechanism.

        2. Sorry Mercy, I know your message was meant for Twilight but I hope you don’t mind me commenting?

          Your question (from my experience), would be yes. They are born Narcissists, no matter what. Whoever looks after them will not change who they are. If Mr Tudor was given up for adoption to two Empathic loving parents with healthy personalities, he would still be who he is today because of his biological genetics.

          The different environment and lack of abuse (from his mother, in this case) would possibly just change the way he deals with situations and maybe given him a happier outlook. But this is only an assumption based on Psychopathic/killer documentaries I’ve seen, that mainly focuses on the family dynamic of ‘what makes a killer’.

          1. Wrong.

            Narcissists occur as a consequence of genetic predisposition AND environmental impact.

          2. That’s what I’m trying to say Mr Tudor. I agree with you. It is both.

            If you ‘had’ been brought up by two empathic non-biological parents, what differences do you think there would be from the person you are today?

          3. HG,
            I agree with you that a ‘narcissist’ is the product of both genetic predisposition and environmental impact. Having said that, it’s also possible that Kel and other commenters are describing ‘narcissistic’ tendencies in babies and childhood. At that young age, a child would not be a full-blown ‘narcissist’, however, it would be possible to detect ‘narcissistic’ traits in them.

          4. Sarah Jane

            I agree and am relieved someone else has experienced it too. I know that Windstorm has said she noticed differences in her narcissist baby as well. We can’t change them, we don’t create them, their brains don’t change composition after they are born. The only thing I can think is if my unhappiness during my daughters pregnancy had anything to do with her brain development – I know my father told me at the time that being unhappy can make the baby unhappy. If people noticed that in the old days and it got forgotten with the progress of modern medicine, then maybe it’s something worth looking into.

            HG, until the day you carry a child, give birth to it, and try to bond with someone who’s got something missing, you don’t know. Do you really believe your brain can lose mass in your toddler to 10 years? Or do you just have to blame your narcissism on your mother. No doubt there was abuse in your household with a narcissist mother and so many relatives with it. Your empath siblings suffered from the abuse too, and very badly from what happened to your brother with Leslie(?) or “it”.

            Brain mass can shrink over a lifetime and cause dementia – not really the amygdala, a stroke can deprive oxygen to the brain. Many people are physically and mentally abused and have the same narcissist gene pool, but don’t lose their amygdala as children. It makes a lot more sense that someone is born with that missing in their brain, than someone who actually loses it at such a young age, and it is something I and other women have experience in our babies. Toddlers have empathy, it is manners and being polite to others that they learn at a young age.

          5. No, you are failing to understand.

            You are not born a narcissist. You are born with a genetic predisposition towards narcissism and it is ‘activated’ by the environment in which one is raised.

            Thus :-

            1. No genetic predisposition (“GPD”) and lack of control environment (“LOCE”) = no narcissist.
            2. GPD but no LOCE = no narcissist
            3. GPD plus LOCE = narcissist.

            Hence I was 3, my brother and sister 1.

          6. Yes, I get this. It’s just the difference between ‘ic’ and ‘t’. Ok, so the toddler IS narcissistIC – and with a LOCE ‘becomes’ a Narcissist.

          7. Agreed on the majority there, Kel.

            Interesting point. But I’m not so sure that (after conception) changes in our brain would affect the baby’s brain emotion-wise. Something to ponder on there for me. An outer foreign force, like cocaine for example proves that to be the case, so why not attachment emotion? Hmm. Is it possible for a newborn to ‘crave’ positive vibes from having suffered mutual negative ones (from the mother) in the womb, like it would crave the absent cocaine kick, I wonder?

            I’m not even sure what I’m trying to say myself – there’s an obvious ‘cut-off’ point to my upstairs (ha).

          8. HG

            I do understand what you are saying – You are not listening or considering what I am saying. How do you know that what people have theorized is correct – how do you know they won’t prove that people are actually born with those cells missing – which makes more scientific sense than losing those cells so quickly in life? It takes a lifetime for cells to shrink in dementia.

            Do you really think you lost brain cells in your amygdala when you were a child?

          9. It is nothing to do with losing cells in later life. I have explained how we are created previously.

            What do you think the genetic predisposition is?

          10. All I know about the amygdala is that it can be ‘hijacked’ and cause violent outbreaks in people who have suffered abuse for years – sometimes leading to murder. So, it would appear that the amygdala is what gets damaged/altered/affected when the Empathic side of things deteriorates through abuse – because this is the part of the brain which is stunted/damaged in Narcissists.

          11. HG
            I think it means the gene runs in your family, one sibling might get it and the other not. You didn’t address the MRI proof of the amygdala, which, incidentally, I learned about from one of your comments early on.
            But I’m happy to just have my observations and thoughts posted.

    2. Kel

      I totally agree with you, as I live this experience too. I believe it is genetic, totally – but with persuasive tendencies to be more or less violent/angrier depending on what kind of person nurtures them. Upbringing will always play a part (example: 2 Narcissists each from different families – both void of empathy, game playing entitled attitudes, but one ends up a murderer due to the neglect and abuse suffered at the hands of their care-giver plus negative experiences whilst growing up. There’s always ‘trigger points’ and moments that can be described as ‘traumas’ when it comes to a murderer’s past).

      How strong a person you must be, Kel, (for what so many people do not understand or comprehend, even in this day and age) to live, bringing up a child with love and unconditionally, when faced with so much adversity. Not every child fits into the circular wooden toy hole of society – some of them ate triangular or square, but nevertheless accepted, as it should be. I live with this too, as an Empath. It is bloody hard.

      Having had a child who is from half Empath, half Narcissist (like myself) is a very lonely, isolated thing to experience and it proves difficult to inbed the love and affection I have into my Son. You cannot make these things happen if it is genetic because that’s who they are. I have cried many tears because of this and expect there’ll be many more to come.

      My Son has been diagnosed with ASD, which is on the Autistic spectrum/Aspergers. He has many Narcissistic traits. I still believe the Lesser and the Mid-Range Narcs ARE actually Autistic as they are unaware and don’t calculate their ‘games’ as they’re more instinctive. The Greaters (to me) are Psychopaths/Sociopaths.

      1. Hi sarah jane…my sons on the spectrum too but autism and npd are two different things. Autism is a disability and npd is a personality disorder. Both have some similarities and have the same area in the brain affected where empathy is but they are very different as well. Lessers and midrangers can still read body language and nuances. They have certain social skills maybe depending on where someone is on the spectrum with autism wouldnt. Narcissists know a lot about manipulation and psychology. Lessers and mids arent aware what they are but they still have that skill of manipulation. Someone with autism lacks that or in the same way in fact they struggle socially and would be taken advantage of by a lesser or mid. Two different things autism and npd.

        1. Hi Chihuahuamum

          Thank you for clarifying this. I know Narcissists would certainly not want to be ‘labelled’ as having a disability – maybe that’s the difference too because an Autistic child perhaps doesn’t mind or might not be aware of in-depth diagnosis’.

          There are a lot similarities I’ve noticed, too. My Son is 14 and high functioning. Very clever with the building of websites, editing videos and has a creative mind. However, his social skills have always been lacking, or rather stunted, because some parts are developing at a slower rate than that of his sister. He will ask “Are you ok?” if his sister falls over, but I believe this to be mimicking the things that I’ve said, rather than it being an Empathic concern. He certainly doesn’t see the dangers in everyday life. I have also seen the smile/smirk he gives me (I refuse to call it reptilian because he’s still my first-born little boy in my eyes) when he has lied/played a game with me). So, this indicates he’s aware of what he is doing. The answers to a bunch of general questions that professionals have tasked him with also proved to be very much revolved around him and what he gets out of things.

      2. Sarah Jane,

        I went back and forth for a long time about whether MRN was a narcissist or had Aspergers. I read up a lot on both before I found this blog and even once asked him if he was on the spectrum (he said he did not know what I meant). Eventually, I settled on narcissism precisely because he was manipulative, a liar, and did calculate his games. Some of it was instinctive but that was more what HG describes as the narcissistic defense that, for instance, made MRN deny something when the evidence was right there.

        The very last time I saw him, after I had already called him a psychopath (this was all post-escape), I said, ‘for a long time I thought you had Aspergers.’ He said, ‘I might.’ I said, ‘you don’t, you have a personality disorder.’

        In general, I think Chihuahuamum’s description of the differences is accurate. But on one of these threads where we had a similar discussion, someone mentioned that some narcs use Aspergers to deflect. I also wonder if the two conditions can be comorbid.

        1. Hi SMH

          I’d have loved to be a fly on the wall when you asked him if he was on the spectrum. It made me laugh, because it’s what I also did towards the end. The ONLY one time (in 10 years) I got him worked up enough to throw himself towards me at speed and shout at the top of his voice (inches from my face) was when I picked up a hammer and threatened to smash his PC to bits, because I was trying to point out that he loved that more than he loved me. I then slapped his face, hard, and he stormed out of the house.

          Turns out I was right.

          1. You were right, SJ. I think it’s funny that you slapped him, though I am sure it was not funny for you at the time!

            Mine was also preternaturally calm and so attached to his device that early on I accused him of only wanting virtual sex, which he kept denying even though I never brought it up again (sore point).

            We actually had a really nice time when we were together and I was fine as IPSS, which is why the twistedness was so hard for me to understand. I thought we would be together forever.

            Nothing I said – good or bad – had any effect until one busy day post-escape I called him a man-baby and sent him a gif of Trump in a baby bonnet with the words ‘I just want attention.’ His dead silence is when I knew that I had wounded him and became convinced that he was a narc. I didn’t even do it in anger. lol.

            I still laugh that I walked on eggshells for years. Only when we were trying to be ‘friends’ did I seriously misstep.

          2. SMH
            Hahaha Trump. Funny. You obviously ignited some cold fury that day, from the silence.

            No – it wasn’t funny at the time. That day, I felt like my LMR dad, with his knee-jerk instincts (the way he used to smack us as kids). I had never hit anyone or been in a fight previous to that face slap. It scared me, that he had brought that out in me. I have so much love and patience.

          3. Yes cold fury, SJ. Second time but neither time were we physically together. This is when I started my verbal assault, however, because he had never given me an ST before and the punishment was totally disproportionate to the crime. I apologized (not profusely) but also told him he was like glass – nothing to hang onto but a pebble could shatter him into a million pieces.

            My father smacked us around too, though he is not a narc. As an adult, I have never laid a finger on anyone but I can easily see how one could lash out the way you did – out of frustration. They bring out the best and the worst. Those highs and lows are exhausting and also keep us hooked. Truly like a drug addiction.

          4. Hi SMH,
            Like glass. Perfect description.
            I can understand the verbal assaults – they just bring out the worst in you (and falsely, the best).

            Mr Tudor, is a slap around the chops fuel or would it just cause heated fury? (both?) I did it with high emotion.

          5. Girl!

            Good question. It derived from an inadvertent wounding, which I guess produces cold fury but not fuel?

            In any case, the wounding proved that his masculinity was fragile and that he broke more easily than I did, so I told him I was rubber and he was glass. He could bend me but not break me.

            To his credit, he never insulted me verbally and that was a nice thing about him. He just made me lash out due to his behavior post-escape when he was hoovering me and I felt that he was ignoring my boundaries (I did not have any before then).

      1. Lisk

        Lol, I agree narc are childish!

        Buttt I’ve seen empathy in very young toddlers, who are only in their first year. I think what we teach toddlers, or what they learn at that age, is Manners and being polite to others.

        1. Kel,
          – I wasn’t comfortable being hugged when/ever since I was a baby (my mom told me)
          – I was more independent
          – I preferred silences over speaking often, which must have given me an air of superiority,
          – I loved to dissapear instead of interacting with my family (I went for walks, listen to music for hours on end with headphones on, even as a 3 yr old. Interacting with my family was not what I wanted, since I felt like they didn’t understand me.

          What I know now:
          My parents wanted me to behave. I wanted to explore. I protested but I was met with discouragement. The door was closed. I couldn’t be me. My toddler- and pre-teen behaviour was a way of protest against that.
          I am not a narcissist (missing the genes, I think!). As a kid, I was in silent rebellion. Sometimes that’s all you can do as a child.

          1. Shesaw! Thank you! This is what I’ve been trying to say! The perspective of the parents is sometimes flawed! they had expectations of a child that were flawed but told you there was something wrong with you.

          2. Hi Witch, I was mainly trying to illustrate that though I may have presented with ‘adult-like-NPD symptoms’ when I was a child, I was far from being ‘a narcissist’ at that time. I was simply in need of being seen and validated. My parents couldn’t provide me with that – there was indeed too much of a mismatch between my temperament and needs and their expectations and abilities at that time.

          3. Shesaw, I understand what you’re saying completely.
            My nephew has feminine traits, he likes dolls and babies. Whilst most parents would stifle him and make him “man up,” I encouraged my sister to let him be and accept him. She doesn’t have a problem with it. She understands the beauty in it and hopes her son will be empathetic through looking after dolls/babies.
            When a child is different parents often do not see the gift that this is, and they try to dumb the child down.

          4. Shesaw

            Quiet is different than bored with an air of superiority. She was resistant to bonding. I don’t view it negatively, but I noticed traits in her is all I’m saying.

          5. Kel, I am sorry. I know how hard it is for a mother not to be able to bond with her child, no matter what the cause is.

            I know the other side, too. I wasn’t able to bond with my mother (my father was mostly away). I tried to bond. I tried very hard. My mother did, too. But it didn’t happen. We didn’t know how to get close to one another. We both accepted in the end, though she, as a mother, kept trying. I know I would do the same with my kids. She didn’t give up on me. She didn’t think negative of me. Something was locked between us. There were little irritations, not big enough to be discussed, but big enough to keep the wall intact. She couldn’t reach me. I couldn’t reach her.

            I didn’t want to say that parents are flawed. That was someone elses point. I wanted to share an experience as a daughter who was not able to bond, and who has felt alone in a family of seven most of the time until she was old enough to understand. I felt like it was MY fault. It was a burden.

            I wrote this because I want you to know that there is this chance that your daughter tries too. Just like you do. And that sometimes it just doesn’t work.

          6. Hi Shesaw
            Me saying that the perception that some parents have of their children are flawed, is just me keeping it real and stating a fact. They have their reasons, that we can be understanding of but sometimes their perception was flawed. It’s a fact.
            I’ve come to the point in my life that it’s okay for me to be angry and grieve my childhood and that it doesnt make me ungrateful, it doesn’t make me a bitch, it doesn’t mean I hate my parents and don’t have empathy for them. what it means is that I’m no longer suppressing my feelings to protect their egos. I understand they did their best within their limited abilities but equally I can own my feelings.

          7. Witch, I’ll explain my irritation. You hijacked my individual story (my previous comments) to make your general point about parental flaws, meaning you took my comments, linked them to your opinions, and made it a stone to throw at Kel.

            What you are trying to say is very different from what I am saying, so please stop using my comments for your own agenda.

          8. It wasn’t a stone to throw at kel as an individual, this is bigger than kel, my comments are not just about kel. Individual experiences are often symptoms of bigger social issues. Mainly attitudes towards children…
            But carry on

      2. A narcissist toddler and an empath toddler do not behave the same way. An empath toddler is loving, cuddles and hugs, they show empathy although they aren’t experts at it, and are starting to learn please, thank you, sharing, and so on.

        A narcissist toddler isn’t comfortable being hugged, they are more independent, they actually might not be bothered by things empath children would be, they have an air of superiority and boredom-say when interacting with their family isn’t what’s on their mind because maybe they’d rather be sleeping – they aren’t acting grumpy/sleepy – they’re acting bored with everyone and not responding, they instinctively know how to manipulate to get what they want. Disciplining them doesn’t have the same effect on them that it has on an empath, they aren’t bothered as much by it – they just sort of ignore it – whereas an empath child’s feelings would be hurt.

          1. Your insatiable appetite for knowledge seems seems close minded to me. I will graciously concede, and thank you for posting my observations.

          2. Well that is a graceful comment Kel and I shall acknowledge that. It may indeed appear closed-minded to you but that is because I do not agree with you and I do not accept what you are explaining as accurate. I understand our kind and our formation and do so from a lot of detail but I do not write it here owing to time constraints and also from the point of trying to keep the concept simple for people to understand. I appreciate people like to discuss the ‘ins and outs’ of it and they can do so, but I have a clear position taken from my own involvement, discussions and research. FYC has kindly provided an expanded basis that underpins what I am explaining and has saved my fingers. I acknowledge your differing viewpoint, which you are of course welcome to articulate and likewise I thank you for doing so in a constructive manner.

          3. Thank you HG. I do not think I will share my thoughts any further as I don’t like unpleasant replies from another commenter. I shared some personal things from my own experiences, and should not have. Thank you for everything you’ve helped me with.

          4. Kel
            I wish you would continue to share and ignore that person’s hurtful and thoughtless comments. They cannot know the bond between you and your child like you do and analyze it from a few comments. It just showed their lack of ability to discuss intelligently.

          5. Dear Kel,

            Please don’t feel that you should not have shared your personal experience and beliefs. Your comments were very insightful and interesting and I can “feel” your truth. I believe that babies and toddlers can have different personalities and a mother would be the best placed person to see that and know that. Even though HG and others may not agree with you or voice their objections, that does not mean that your views are wrong or unappreciated overall. I for one believe you and I welcome your observations with interest.

            This blog is incredibly valuable for many reasons, however, I also feel that it has a kind of schizophrenic quality about it. There are mixed messages and overtones that can be difficult to reconcile at times.

            On the one hand, non-narcissists are given a big “warning” sign and told to “get out, stay out”, seize the power, go no contact, learn the signs to stay safe and immune, etc etc etc. Empathic people suffering serious mental anguish are given a place of safety, support and practical advice to help them recover from what they’ve been subjected to and they are given a voice to share their valuable experiences.

            On the other hand, the “narcissistic perspective” is continually defended and praised, sometimes obsessively, to the point where the empathic person with credible life experience feels forced to back down or refrain from further debate in the interest of not offending HG or not causing some kind of uncomfortable conflict that overshadows constructive debate on the blog.

            If the narcissistic perspective was that wonderful, why the need for a “group therapy” blog in the first place??

            HG is correct many times and has the ultimate power in moderating our comments, however, he is not God. Also, he is not an empathic mother.

            Kel,
            Please ignore the negative comments made to you. Your views are welcome here and add much insight and credibility. Please feel free and comfortable to keep sharing and articulating your views and experiences. Your observations are needed and wanted xx

          6. Kel
            FWIW. I found your thoughts and observations interesting. Sarah Janes, FYC, and ChiMum’s on this topic and on the Autistic and Aspergers as well.

          7. That would suggest it’s not genetic. The ‘predisposition’ is genetic. So, the toddler is a Narcissist. It’s only the added ingredients after that (in the form of nurture), that determines how tasty that cake will be.

          8. Thank you NA.

            I meant it as something I noticed, and not as a challenge to anyone. I enjoyed the discussion too and wished it had been more.

            I’m just not open to ugly comments calling me and my family “eww” and so forth. This site has been like therapy for me, but I’m not comfortable anymore, even anonymously, if someone’s going to just say things to hurt me. I don’t need that, and I’m strong enough now.

            I’m grateful for the discussions here since last summer, and all the help and support I’ve gotten from everyone!

          9. WiserNow

            When I grow up, I want to be as well articulated as you and NarcAngel are – you’re both gifted! You explained the sensitivities of this site exactly right. The blog’s incredibly helpful, even necessary, therapy though. I don’t know how I would’ve not only discovered narcissism but also recovered from it without it.

            I’m so happy that you were open to exploring my comments on this thread. I liked your comment that a toddler could be narcissistic, not yet a narcissist. I think you’re right.

            Posting on here can take a lot of time, and it may be aiding and abetting my chronic procrastination anyway. So out of my comfort zone here and off to the new!

            Thank you so much for your kindness, and all your help.

          10. You’re welcome Kel, and thank you for your kind comment too. I think you are already well articulated and I relate very much to your comments. They are measured and respectful and demonstrate your thoughtful observations of your children’s behaviours.

            In real life and here on the blog, it irritates me that the sensitive and considered thoughts and actions of empathic people are either ignored, trampled on, or dismissed by people with less sensitivity and consideration, simply because those dismissive people are louder or bolder or more arrogant. They don’t have the sensitivity to truly understand and consider what you’re saying, so they either rail against it, dismiss it, or laugh it off as being wrong or weak or unimportant. Then the sensitive or thoughtful person has no avenue to continue on and finds it more productive to stay quiet. It boils my blood. That’s why I’m inclined to bite back sometimes 😉

            Anyway, you do what you feel is best for you regarding staying on the blog or not. If you ever want to comment on anything, feel free and I think you will be more than welcome. Best wishes to you 🙂

        1. Hello Kel, I want to add that I shared the above research to note what science has uncovered to date on narcissism. I have found it very helpful. In direct response to your comment above about two toddler behavior sets, the ‘huggable’ one may be demonstrating either a healthy or a anxious preoccupied attachment style, the ‘unhuggable’ one would be demonstrating an avoidant attachment style. Attachment styles are created between the ages of 0-3. Therefore, it is possible for a child to be avoidant and not (yet) a narcissist. If the child becomes a narcissist, it might be falsely attributed to attachment style behavior at an earlier age. As adults, an avoidantly attached person is often dismissive and remains ‘unhugable’, yet does not have NPD (or they can coexist). Both attachment style and NPD tests can reveal which is at play.

          Lastly, mothers who love their children can unintentionally lack attunement with their child—not due to abuse—but due to differing perceptions of necessary attunement or inconsistent feedback. I also recall research on the important influence grandparents have on their grandchildren’s self concept. This may have been a complicating factor in your child’s development.

          I hope you find this information useful. I certainly do not judge you.

          1. Fyc

            Thank you for looking up things. I was actually being progressive. I know what’s already documented, but I wanted to explore a new point of view for possibly future findings.

            It would be nice if you would assume I was attuned with my child and intelligent enough to know what I’m talking about, and to actually consider what I’m saying from that viewpoint is what I was looking for – discussion of the possibilities and the what if’s.

            Wishing you the best

          2. Kel, I have no way of knowing your attunement or lack thereof and assumed neither. I also made no assumption regarding your level of intelligence. I was attempting to further the research-based aspect of the discussion, not to offend. I apologize if I did.

    3. I’m not a mother but tbh I find it kind of disturbing you would out right label a small child a narcissist…
      Children have tantrums and can be manipulative to get their own way, my nephew is 3 and yes if he sees a toy in the shop he wants he may kick up a fuss to get it. This is normal behaviour for most children and they grow out of it.
      it’s down to the parents to manage it in a loving way but also assert firm boundaries.
      My mother would compare me to my sister and basically imply I was the better child because I was more obedient and docile. This actually made my sister worse not better as she felt unloved. Yes my sister was more hyper and outgoing than I was so she was probably more of a hand full but she needed loving guidance not scorn and criticism for having a more lively personality. The truth is my mother has PTSD/depression/anxiety so she was easily overwhelmed and lacked the necessary parenting skills to manage-it wasn’t the fault of the children why she couldn’t deal with it.

    4. The more I read your comments Kel, the more I’m like “ewww”
      Your mother, your brother, your child etc are all narcissists but you were such a fine upstanding mother, it could not have possibly been anything to do with you or the father why your daughter is a brat right!?
      It wasnt because you exaggerated her childlike immature behaviour that is normal for a child and labelled it as “evil” … it wasn’t because you expected a 3 year old to behave like a 30 year old… no.. your daughter was just born evil… Yeah right!

        1. There’s no point in splitting hairs… you said she was born a narcissist. Narcissists are remorseless abusers. Therefore evil.
          It’s very typical of parents to avoid any responsibility of how they failed to protect for whatever reason, so they don’t have to deal with the guilt.
          You will find that all of these troublesome children with capacity (not talking about disabled children), were neglected, witnessed domestic abuse, were sexually abused etc. They have attachment issues because of their upbringing and experiences of abuse.
          I recommend reading “the boy who was raised as a dog” by Bruce Perry

          1. Witch,

            I find it “kind of disturbing” that you have read Kel’s well-explained comment regarding babies and their personalities and you have gone on a wild tangent so far removed from what Kel said that it’s frankly laughable.

            Kel DID NOT mention evil, not even once. She did not talk about neglect, disabled children, domestic abuse, brats, sexual abuse or attachment issues.

            Seriously, where on earth did you learn to read? It sounds like you need to attend a reading and comprehension course because you have made wildly inaccurate assumptions after reading a clearly described comment. Any form of nuance or subtlety is completely lost on you. Or are you trying to create drama and attention for yourself?

            If you think that “asserting boundaries” is all that’s needed in order to avoid raising narcissistic or empathic children, my guess is that you don’t actually know the effects of being involved with a narcissist and don’t have the kind of understanding of “evil” in the way it’s discussed on this blog.

          2. I agree, WiserNow, and not only that, as far as environment:
            the assumption or expectation that a mother has all retroactive and/or current control over the narcissists in their life and environment (which in SOME cases is literally ALL the people around them) because they become pregnant by a narcissist looks very much like victim blaming. Nothing to do with kel, I don’t know her entire situation, but this kind of removal of “nuance” and “subtlety” as you so brilliantly point out can be damaging.
            Narcissists defy control and detection, brainwash, manipulate and prevent clarity of thought at all turns.
            Which is why therapists are frequently useless.

      1. Hello Witch,

        Firstly, I’ll say this:
        To a certain extent, your points raised regarding Kel and her child are so irritating I’ve been forced to comment. If you are not a mother, wind your neck in. If you think that just placing a child on the scene (in your head) is ‘as simple as that’ in order to make you believe you have even a smidgeon of an idea of what it’s like to be a mother – you’re mistaken.

        You’re entitled to an opinion, but to say something so personal like that, (when you’re probably someone who spoils their niece for a few hours and then says goodbye) is das-gus-tang (in a Scottish accent).

        Tsk.

          1. I’m not sure if you mean me? But only because I’m emotional and sometimes say things in a crass way doesn’t mean that there isn’t anything reasonable about what I’m saying, unless the only thing that marks intelligence is diction?
            And I wasn’t saying kel or her family is “eww”
            I said “eww” regarding her comments that some children are born abusers.
            I find parents often describe their children as “they have always been like that, that’s just them, they have always tested me, they always went against me” as a way to avoid any kind responsibility.
            Never said parenthood isn’t hard/challenging/draining. I’m saying there is always a lot more to the story and I’m not falling for scapegoating a child as “the problem.”

          2. No, I wasn’t referring to you. You are welcome to express your opinion like anybody else so long as it avoids any form of ad hominem attack.

          3. Well, that told me.

            There have been people in my life (who are not mothers) try to dictate or suggest what others (and myself) should be doing in order for this that and the other outcome, when they truly have no idea. I wouldn’t dream of suggesting how a farmer should grows his crops because I’ve read an article on it. Some things you just have to experience, in order to then give an example of your own ‘take’ Mr Tudor.

        1. Sarah, I wasn’t saying being a mother isn’t hard.
          My contention with kels comments was with her belief that children are born remorseless narcissists (evil.) and that it hasn’t got anything to do with the child’s upbringing as to whether or not they are empathetic.
          I find a shallow interpretation of her child’s childhood to be telling that there are probably more skeletons in the closet. A lot of parents are not the best at honest reflection and have a tendency to minimise their child’s experiences in order to protect their own reputation.
          It would be interesting to find out the child’s perspective, which would probably be more inspectful than they were simply born evil.
          My dads parents would probably say my dad was just stupid and incompetent. When I asked my dad what it was like having the parents he had, he said they were very unbalanced, he was timid as a child and they didn’t help him, his dad was a strict Christian and would hit him if he got an answer wrong during bible study. This allowed me to understand why my dad was not mature, more so than asking his mum who would have had a bias towards herself rather than admit the dysfunction in her household.

          1. Wisenow…
            I understand children have different personalities. I understand personality types.
            That is not what kel was saying… she was saying there are narc babies and empath babies and I find that laughable

          2. Witch,
            There is a huge difference between the meaning of ‘narcissist’ and ‘narcissistic’. When I read Kel’s comment describing the personalities of babies, the way I understood her description of a ‘narcissist’ baby was more in line with saying a ‘narcissistic’ baby.

            Babies are too young to be ‘narcissists’. Common sense kind of tells you that a baby or toddler or even a child up to ten will not know how to manipulate and deceive the way a grown person would, no matter how they are raised or treated. So it doesn’t make sense to call a baby or small child a ‘narcissist’.

            Kel’s description was about personality traits or tendencies. She wasn’t labelling babies as “remorseless abusers” or saying they were evil like you described. It was an observation of the different behaviours that can be seen even in babies and small children.

            By the way, HG posted a great YouTube video last week on the difference between ‘narcissist’ and ‘narcissistic’. It gave me a clear understanding of the difference and it helped to understand the meanings in contexts like the one in this thread.

          3. Wisenow,
            She literally said there are narcissist babies, they are born that way and it has nothing to do with their upbringing… so I’m not sure what you mean?
            I understand that someone can have narcissistic traits that are a problem, but not be a narcissist. That’s not what she was talking about though.

          4. Sarah, I never said anything about what you should personally be doing with your child.
            I see the dangers in stating that children are born abusers and it has nothing to do with their environment.
            There are reasons children do not get diagnosed as narcissists… it’s because professionals know the impact socialisation has on a child and so its unethical to label the child as “the problem” “the narcissist” without first addressing the dysfunction in the environment.
            If I believe a child is a psychopath from the jump, I will start behaving a certain way with them and they will sense that I believe they are a “problem child.” This will impact on how they see themselves and their relationship with me.
            I don’t need to be a mother to know this.

          5. Hello Witch,
            Fair points. Everyone has their own story and perspective of what’s real (to them), and it’s understandable that wires do/will get crossed when the whole debate is out on the table, when everyone involved is present at the same time. You’re right in that sense – no-one can tell a story and speak for everyone.

            It’s just that I can relate to Kel’s mother/child dynamic of knowing you’ve done the best you can and still not feeling good about it. You can’t tamper with genetics. I, personally, don’t like the term ‘evil’ when it comes to Narcissistic traits. I have a hard time giving serial killers the label. ‘Satan’ (although non-existent) would be the closest thing to evil – I mean, who purposefully waits around to torture a strange dead person for the hell of it? (ha).

          6. Hi Sarah,
            I realise that I did say things that were out of line because I was triggered by the relationship with my own parents.
            My mother could not handle the negative emotions in her children. My eldest sister was naturally a bit jealous of me because she was the eldest… instead of my mother trying to soothe things between us; because she couldn’t manage my sister, she would just say “your sister is jealous of you!”
            My sister admits she was jealous but that she does love me and I believe she does.

      2. Witch

        I never in my life felt I was perfect or better than anyone, in fact opposite of that as is the pitfalls of an empath in a narcissistic family. It would be interesting to have comments from HG’s empath siblings from growing up in the same household.

        Per your other comments you seemed to be speaking to abused mothers or those who take things out on their own children. I wasn’t a battered wife. I did insist we move closer to family as my husband and I argued too much and wouldn’t be good for the baby, that’s why we were temporarily living with my parents at the time. I divorced him and did not ask for child support for safety reasons to keep them from visiting him out of state. I gave up everything for my kids, and no I’m no angel at all, but I tried my best to make life happy and that they were raised right.

        I’m actually very close to my daughter. I’m very proud of her, and her accomplishments. I don’t view narcissism in black and white, as I’ve explained in other comment threads- I’m amazed and put to shame all the good narcissist’s do.

        Wish you the best with whatever reason brings you here.

        1. I guess I don’t know what you mean when you say your daughter was born a narcissist and I don’t understand it. I also don’t agree that people are born that way. My gf hears voices which means that she probably had a genetic predisposition to hearing voices, but trauma triggered this.
          I was quiet as a child and some adults assumed I was just rude. I was shy and I didn’t always understand what was expected of me socially. I still don’t understand why people expect everyone they meet to say “good morning” to them and ask how they are out of politeness when deep down they really don’t want to know how the other person is doing… it’s not logical to me, but apparently that’s rude.
          Your daughter may not have felt superior to others and you may have just assumed that’s what she was feeling.

    5. Hi Kel, This is a very interesting hypothesis that you have brought up. I agree with HG because what he says goes with all of the scientific researches already made about narcissism and even psychopathy.
      From what I have read, there is NOT SINGLE GENE that makes a person a psychopath. They are studying a few genes that contribute in making someone a psychopath. One of these genes related to psychopathy is the MAO-A (violence genes) can only be passed on from the mother because it’s only in the X chromosome. Fallon (neuroscientist) explained this well. “It’s on the X chromosome. And so in this way you can only get it from your mother. And in fact this is probably why mostly men, boys, are psychopathic killers, or are very aggressive. Because a daughter can get one X from the father, one X from the mother, it’s kind of diluted out. But for a son, he can only get the X chromosome from his mother. ”. So a gender even plays a role on your susceptibility of inheriting these genes and that is probably why HG got the paychopathy from his mother but his sister didn’t because their empath father diluted the X chromosome that his sister got. I am hypothesizing that the genes to narcissism is similar where it is a combination of genes and some of them are attached only to a specific chromosome so it is like a lottery on which genes you can get. And this is also probably why most female narcissists are non-violent mid-rangers because females have a lower tendency to get a concentrated MAO-A gene.

      Now in the same presentation, Fallon explained that this MAO-A gene IS NOT EXTRACTED unless there is an exposure to trauma. “Theoretically what this means is that in order to express this gene, in a violent way, very early on, before puberty, you have to be involved in something that is really traumatic — not a little stress, not being spanked or something, but really seeing violence, or being involved in it, in 3D. Right? That’s how the mirror neuron system works.“

      So it goes very similarly with HG’s genetic predisposition + environment. The seed and the soil.

      1. Hi Mommypino,

        Thank you for your comment on psychopathy. You may find this study of interest on psychopaths:

        “When highly psychopathic participants imagined pain to themselves, they showed a typical neural response within the brain regions involved in empathy for pain, including the anterior insula, the anterior midcingulate cortex, somatosensory cortex, and the right amygdala. The increase in brain activity in these regions was unusually pronounced, suggesting that psychopathic people are sensitive to the thought of pain.

        But when participants imagined pain to others, these regions failed to become active in high psychopaths. Moreover, psychopaths showed an increased response in the ventral striatum, an area known to be involved in pleasure, when imagining others in pain.” (Decety, 2013)

        I have not studied psychopathy specifically, but came across this during my research on empathy. It seems to indicate the psychopath’s brain structure is intact and that self empathy is fully functional; it is the psychopath’s other orientation to empathy that is reduced or eliminated due to degree of psychopathy. Their pleasure response to others’ pain goes well beyond the simple lack of other oriented empathy. Perhaps this is due to the specific genes you discuss and of course due to their expression as a result of environmental influences (abuse/trauma).

        1. Wow, thank you FYC, that is really interesting! I wonder what causes those regions in the brain involved in empathy to only be active when it comes to hurt towards self but not others even though some of them have cognitive empathy. The MAO-A gene (sometimes called the warrior gene or violence gene) I could imagine was very much needed for survival when people were still hunting and gathering and even during those times when wars or battles were a way of life. It must be carried by humans to ensure that the species will survive. So a psychopath with the expressed warrior gene is basically in perpetual survival mode. But there are also many other genes that is related to psychopathy and I was just looking at the 5-HTTLPR gene which they call the serotonin transporter. I don’t know if this will help you with your research on empaths. They say that it affects us depending on which alleles we inherit from our parents. Since we get one allele from each parent, we can get a combination of long-long, short-short and long-short alleles. People with one or two short alleles are in greater risk for developing depression, PTSD, alcoholism and/or anxiety because people with short alleles are more prone to higher amygdala response to threats or stress. People with long-long alleles are more associated with calmer amygdala response but they are also associated with narcissism, leadership qualities and psychopathy. One article that I have read said that people with one short alleles respond more intensely or sensitively to stress, but when they live without stress in their lives they actually have lower stress levels (happier?) than people with long-long alleles who are also not in a stressful or threatening situation. But then another article said that it depends on what type of stress. Short alleles seem to do better with acute stress but have problems with chronic or prolonged stress. Another article said that short alleles are found mostly in Asians, less in Caucasians and the lowest in those of African decent.

          1. Hi Mommypino, Thank you so much for your insights. I have not narrowed my focus to specific gene review as of yet because they do not dictate behavior and may never become expressed. Given your interesting input, I will take a closer look and get back to you. Your review of short and long alleles is quite interesting and I will follow this lead as well. I will try to save and share relevant studies more often as I further my research for greater understanding. I hope you do too. Thank you again, MP. I hope you have a wonderful day!

          2. Thank you FYC! I thoroughly enjoyed talking to you about these topics and loved reading the things that you found. By the way, I looked at my 23 and me and was shocked to find out that I have five variants of the MAO-A gene. I looked them up and thankfully none of the MAO-A variants that I have are linked to the warrior genes attributed to psychopathy. Apparently we all carry MAO-A genes but only certain variants are linked to aggression.

          3. Lol Mommypino! I don’t need to see your 23 and me results to know that! You are always kind and gracious!

          4. Oh, I’m so curious about that MP. Maybe I’ll look into that test soon, maybe I’ll do it next month. I know someone who had their life saved by it.

          5. Hi NunyaBiz, the 23andMe is awesome. Aside from ancestry reports it also has some health reports regarding your genetic predisposition towards certain ailments like Alzheimer’s. I checked if it has one for dementia but it doesn’t as of now. I did it last year but they keep updating for new reports which they send me on my email account. Like a month or so ago I got an email that they have a new health risk report for Hereditary Amyloidosis (TTR-Related) which they didn’t have before. I just logged in to see if I have a genetic predisposition to it or none. They also have reports if you are a carrier of something that will not affect you but may affect your offsprings. They also have reports on traits and wellness. It was entertaining because it was able to predict that I have brown hair, eyes, fair skin and even my freckles. And in the traits reports they were able to predict my fear of heights and my inability to match a musical pitch! One funny thing is my MRE sister used to smear me to our relatives from our dad by saying that I’m not really his biological daughter and our dad just supported me financially as his way of adopting me. I have caught her introducing me as adopted twice and one of my aunts (an ex wife of my dad’s cousin) is pretty tactless that she used to allude to it like one time we visited her and I dressed up nicely because I got my inheritance so I got a few nice clothes and she said, “Wow you’re starting to look like a Smith now!” (not my real family name) or she would say in the conversations about our ancestors from my dad her (my MRE sister’s) grandfather etc. and had an awkward silence when I referred to them as mine. Well 23andMe connects you to your DNA relatives and it connected me to her son as my second cousin who took the 23andMe test also. She called me and told me that her son found me there and now she was referring to my ancestors from dad as ‘your great grandmother etc.’ So I thought that was awesome. 😊

          6. Mommypino, have you come across specific gene regulators of NPD/APD? If yes, please provide a link.

            I’m trying to go back in time for shesaw to find a study I read on the topic and can’t seem to locate this, because I read it on my iPad (I have to clear history due to malware I have not yet eradicated).

            Thanks in advance!

          7. Ugh, MP, I want to punch your aunt in the face.

            Well, you’ve sold me on it, I will do it soon. FYI I also have a massive fear of heights and zero musical voice : ).
            I’m so curious about how fear of heights is genetic and what traits it might be related to.

            My husband’s mother likes to differentiate her related by blood grandchildren, my husband is adopted. I’ve mentioned it before my mother in law brought up to my husband the number of “natural” grandchildren she has with pride. She definitely did it to hurt but felt could get away with it easily looking innocent. The messed up part is that in her count of natural grandchildren she purposely included 4 grandchildren that we know are not blood related to her either making it seem like our two children were the only ones who were “different” even though she knew otherwise. So she purposely and knowingly lied to make our family feel ostracized, it wasn’t even true. She didn’t know we knew and he called her on it immediately.
            What a bitch.

  12. Hello, H.G.Tudor.
    These words really belong to both sides.
    First, because the empathic neglects his attention to the narcissist, reducing his fuel or not supplying the right quantity and good quality. This generated a massive critique of the narcissist.
    For this reason the narcissist began his de-idealization, emotional disassociation and devaluation towards the empathetic. But really the real cause was, the pathological fear of suffering a possible abandonment, by the desired object, the empathic.

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