How could you be so twisted? I gave you absolutely everything. I opened my heart to you and gave you a perfect love which is beyond compare. I let you in to my world and shared everything with you. Nothing was kept from you. I knew that you were the one, the one person who amidst all the treachery and deceit in this cruel, harsh world who would take care of me. I recognised that you would shield me and protect me from the perfidious foes that lurked seeking to destroy me. I gave you everything that I had. I poured my love into our relationship, investing in it because I knew that this time it was my soul mate who stood before me. You made me so happy because you knew what I needed. You gave me what I wanted and also what I needed and you lifted me heavenwards with that beautiful brand of love that only you can possess. Our relationship was built on the firmest of foundations and promised a glittering and marvellous future. We had so much in common. You liked what I liked and I liked what you liked. So many times I would remark to my friends that it was such serendipity that we had found one another. There is so much hurt in the world, so much darkness beyond the front door and we found one another, two shining lights that when combined we burned brightly and brilliantly.

Nobody made me feel the way you did. At times, eloquent and articulate as I am, I struggled to find the words to convey what you did for me. Your selflessness and devotion were breath-taking and naturally I reciprocated. I put you first. From the moment I rose until the moment I let slumber take me, I had you and only you in my thoughts. As our mighty empire grew around us, I planned for us both. I looked forward and constructed a happy, fulfilling and most of all loving future for us both. We had no need to look back at the past. We had both been hurt by those who acted to their own agendas. I suppose that is why we found such a need in one another and one that we could both address. It was as if we had been cut from the same cloth. Two pieces of a fabulous and stunning garment that just needed to be stitched together and once combined cloaked us in magnificence. Our brilliance was never ostentatious. Most definitely other people would look upon us and comment as to our satisfaction, but not smugness. People would remark about how happy we looked and they were genuinely delighted for us, there was no envy in their words or expressions. We had it all. We had found one another and I believed in you, I believed in us. I gave every ounce of my being to you in order to ensure that what we had did not crumble to dust. I strained every sinew, fired every synapse and poured my very essence into us. I could not have given more of myself to you. From the material to the ethereal I ensured it was all directed onto you in order to ensure you knew how deep and perfect my love for you was and is. I melded with you, combined, conjoined and became one because I knew. I knew with a certainty that I had never met before that this time, this time I had found my angel, my muse, my protector and my soul mate. Such was the treasured nature of this find that I knew I had to do everything in my power to maintain that you and I remained as one. There was no hope for anything else. I could never do anything to hurt or harm you and thus spoil this most precious union. Every waking moment was dedicated to preserving our special relationship. Each word, each act and each thought revolved around the concept of us and I wanted more than any desire that I have ever known to keep us together.

Yet you destroyed that. How could you? How could you render into the dirt and ashes what we had? How could you betray me so viciously? How could you twist what we had built together so that it was no longer recognisable? A warped and corrupted image of what had been so magnificent, so perfect and what I thought was so impregnable. You perverted our creation, the poison which flowed so readily and alarmed me with the speed by which you were able to summon it. The toxicity which clouded my vision, stinging my eyes, filling my nose and mouth as I choked on the malevolent fumes. Where did this come from? I had never seen this about you. In all the time we spent together, and we spent a lot of time together, not once did I see anything that would indicate that beneath your beauty and your tenderness lay this vast repository of hatred and malice. How could you be so twisted as to unleash all of this against me after everything that I had done for you, after everything I had done for us? It makes no sense. There is no logic in what you did, no rationale for taking what we had and then rending it apart, pouring acid upon it so it melted into awful shapes, searing it with flame so that it bubbled, cracked and split becoming something terrible and fearsome. So many times I have asked myself why did you do this? We had the world beneath us and then for some incomprehensible reason you wrapped your hands around it and began to dismantle and destroy it. No sane individual would do this would they? Only someone sick would act this way. Someone who has something very wrong with them would let me down in this way, after giving and promising so much, to then cast it all asunder. A twisted and hateful game is what you made the concept of us become and your warped actions have exacted a severe cost to my well-being. You have tried to break and destroy me. Why did you do this after all that I have given you, after everything I have done, after all the love, affection and dedication that I have shown to you? Only someone twisted could behave this way.

Do I speak these words or am I hearing them? Perhaps I speak them as they are spoken to me as I look into the mirror? Are these my words, your words or do they belong to both of us?




  1. FYC and Mommypino,

    Thank you for all of this information. I have taken the time to read a lot of it and look up every other scientific term! It is eye opening but also somewhat depressing because even though I do believe (and as HG has said) that narcissism is a product of both genetics and environment, one does get the sense that it is impossible to correct once the damage is done (that is, if both the predisposition and the environment are in place).

    HG, has anything changed recently in your dynamic with SM? I am curious if I am reading your posts correctly both on IG and on here.

    1. Hello SMH,

      I understand your perspective, though I remain hopeful. The scientific body of study today only scratches the surface. Much more investigation must be pursued before we can know if any condition can be reversed or altered.

      Currently, interesting progress has been made helping narcissist to develop their cognitive empathy for others by using a technique that reframes experience to the viewpoint of self (the narcissist) versus other. When this is executed, the narcissist can experience actual empathy for self and extend that by way of cognition to the other. HG, as a rare ultra elite, can and does work this out on his own.

      I will share more relevant information in the future. Best regards.

      1. Hi FYC, Thanks for that additional info. It’s good to know that research is being done on this. I look forward to reading more.

        1. Me too, SMH. Given the broad interest in the topic, I believe more studies will be readily funded. The next five years should be interesting.

  2. Witch

    “but there was also valid logic behind it which is that parents have a bias towards their own parenting”

    I never said that this does not happen; in fact I concurred with your point in my second paragraph.

    You simply cannot assume that is always the case.

    1. Yes that is correct.
      However, when someone says their child was born disordered it’s not completely illogical to have my suspicions based on previous experiences of knowing people with similar perspectives.

  3. HG,

    “On the other matter, if a child who has GPD loses their parents (neither of whom are narcissists) when he is say 6 and is thus orphaned, if this environment thereafter is one conducive to the creation of a narcissist, then you have GPD and the LOCE even though there is no narcissist parent invovled and thus a narcissist will still arise in that child.”

    This thought makes me deeply sad.

    But, it also raises a question in my mind – if a five or six year old demonstrates affective empathy (wanting to ‘fix’ interpersonal disputes with peers, seeming empathy towards animals that is not attention seeking, etc.) and then, say, at age eight loses both parents (one of whom is an empath and the other a narc) and finds him/herself in an environment conducive to the creation of a narcissist – could this child develop NPD or simply more narcissistic traits?

    1. In the suggested scenario I would see his empathic resilience being sufficient to tackle the loss of the parents.

      1. HG,

        “…I would see his empathic resilience being sufficient to tackle the loss of the parents.”

        Thank-you for your answer.

  4. Is this an accurate representation of the Narcissistic Personality Dynamic we discuss on this blog?

    Narcissistic Normals Empathic

    1. 180————–90————————————0———————————–90————————————-180
      Empath Grp Empathic NORMAL Narcissistic Narcissist Group

  5. I realise my comments were quite brutal and I made a lot of assumptions. I find it very frustrating when people think their child is just evil.
    I come across a lot of women who are in denial that the domestic abuse their children have witnessed has had any negeative affect on them, they don’t want to make the connection that the emotional neglect that their child has suffered because they had an abusive boyfriend, one after the other had any bearing on why their child is a menance to society. And it’s quite frustrating.
    if your child in living in the same house, they know what’s going on and yes it’s affecting them.

    1. Witch,

      “I come across a lot of women who are in denial that the domestic abuse their children have witnessed has had any negeative affect on them”

      I’m sorry that is the case in your experience; it is saddening and sobering to think that this is a regular phenomenon. You are right; it certainly does happen – but to assume (as you admit) that this is the case in Kel’s comments is a reflection of your own emotional thinking.

      Also, in defense of some parents; it’s complicated why some children turn out the way that they do (as HG’s work highlights) – although no one would say that ‘abuse’ in the formative stages of life has a positive influence. Also, some types of abuse are not ‘obvious’ at the get-go (with or without children in the situation)…if it were obvious; we wouldn’t all be here searching for answers.

      1. I agree, my assumptions were a reflection of my emotional thinking, but there was also valid logic behind it which is that parents have a bias towards their own parenting. Ask the children and you find different answers.

    2. Hi Witch, I have read the exchange. I appreciate that you acknowledged your ET and that you came as very abrasive with the way you delivered your response. It does happen to me too and I’m working on that as well. I can understand where you are coming from. And there is a logical reason behind which got lost in the abrasive delivery. I agree with you to a point but there are also factors that are beyond the primary caregivers’ control. There are instances when the brain of a child is really different from the beginning. One case that I could think of right now is fetal alcohol syndrome and how it affects the child’s temperament for life. The child is not a narcissist but there was damage in the brain resulting from the mother drinking alcohol during pregnancy that exceeded what the fetus can tolerate in terms of its development. My dad had an adopted brother who had temperamental problema from the beginning. Both my grandparents were empaths, just the nicest people who had the best intentions for that kid. They even bought him a bicycle which they purposely didn’t buy my dad one so that the boy would feel that he has something that my dad didn’t have. But none of their efforts helped him. He became alcoholic and went to jail a few times and borrowed money from my grandparents which he never paid. We just can’t control everything. Sometimes there are also outside influences that are very strong such as narcissist grandparents or co-parents who undermine everything that you are trying to teach your kids. All that parents can do is to try their best.

      1. I appreciate your understanding and I understand your example. I agree with you, that there are also outside influences. It probably came across like I was saying “it’s all the mothers fault” and I’m not.
        I’m a big supporter of mothers having witnessed a lot of what single mothers go through.
        There’s also a difference between blame and responsibility. When I’m talking about responsibility sometimes that gets misinterpreted as blame!
        For example, we are not to blame for our experiences with narcissists, which is why we are all here, however we have a responsibility to learn about them and protect ourselves from them now that we know what they are. <—-this is not victim blaming

        1. Hi switch, Thank you for clarifying that you don’t mean to say that it’s all the mother’s fault. It did come across that way. As empaths we tend to be protective of children and sometimes that can lead to emotional reactions. I agree with you about motherhood and how hard it is especially for single moms.

          1. For a long time, ‘cold’ mothers were thought to be the cause of their children’s autism. Of course now we know that is not the case but there is still some guilt about it.

          2. SMH, that’s so true. I remember that. And even up to now, moms of autistic kids still get judged by bystanders who see an unusual behavior and had no idea about the autism. I remember a viral video taken by a bystander of a mom dragging a young child who was screaming and she was man handling him to take him with her. There was so much uproar only for her to come out and say that he’s autistic and told what was really going on.

          3. Hi Mommypino, Yes but then there are also some truly twisted parents out there – like the pair who were just jailed for keeping their 14 kids chained to their beds with no food or showers or the couple who drove their adopted kids off a cliff. Sick, sick, sick. I think sometimes we do not get involved because we are afraid of misstepping. It’s hard to know what to do or how to do it if you do see something that appears to be wrong. Even family members might not know. Only neighbours would know in cases where the children are ‘home schooled.’ Child abuse by parents is rampant.

          4. I’m am very much more of a “man hater”
            I’m bisexual and refuse to date men because I would rather give my intimacy, money etc to my own kind.
            I just have my criticisms of “heterosexual culture” and how the family is constructed under it.
            Ideally i believe we should live a more community based lifestyle, where we help raise each other’s children so that all the pressure is not placed on the mother.
            However, I realise this is just an ideal thought and for a few reasons not practical on a large scale.

            Why do a lot of people around here seem to compare autism to personally disorders? Autism is not a personality disorder, it’s a disability.
            Where as how you raise your children does have an impact on whether or not they develop a personality disorder. Experience has an impact on personality disorders, not for autism.

          5. Hi Witch, I know how you raise your children does not have an impact on autism. I was just pointing out that many decades ago mothers were wrongly accused of causing autism and how far science in this area has come.

          6. Hi Witch, I personally don’t understand why some women have become ‘man haters’. That is probably my personal reason why I don’t go around telling people that I’m a feminist. I do support women in my life but I don’t think that I should buy a product because the business owner is a woman. I will buy a product if it’s good. I will not vote for someone because she’s a woman. I will vote for someone if I agree with that person’s platform. I think I’m more of a humanist and not a feminist. I believe that women endure a lot of unequal treatment, but I don’t think that giving a reverse unequal treatment is the answer. We shouldn’t right a wrong with another wrong. There’s no better sex or gender, we are all equal but at the same time different.
            I think that you have a very noble intention about your thoughts in helping raise each other’s children. But I agree that it is not realistic and more of a utopian ideal. I have had my personal criticisms on the ‘it takes a village to raise a child’ philosophy. I think that the primary caregivers are the best people who know and understand the child (in most cases, not all). I think that we can help moms but only to an extent. I think that it is better for children to have a stronger bond with their primary caregivers instead of several people. Children should look up to the primary caregivers as the main authority and source of their identity. And also the support that we should give the moms should be more limited to just empowering them and giving them confidence. I think that a strong and confident mom can do more wonderful things for a child’s self-esteem than an entire village. But that is my personal opinion. I personally don’t want anybody telling me how I should raise my kids. If I need help I will buy a book or ask for advice. One example that I think of where people might disagree with my way is spanking. I do spank my kids. One spank only and as a last resort but it’s super effective. It doesn’t hurt them because it’s just one small spank but when they are testing my authority and the nice mom approach doesn’t work, they immediately behave when I threaten with a spank because they know that I always follow through. And the last thing that I want is an outsider might see that and tell me in front of my kids that I am a mean mom. But I partly agree with you because in the case of children of narcissists, other people like teachers or neighbors showing them love, respect, and support does help a lot and teach them a behavior that they can aim for.

          7. I am against others helping raise my children for obvious reasons and have paid dearly to defend that stance.

            I also suspected for some time my husband had asperger’s. We now have a few books on it.

          8. There is no comparison between the two, by SMH or anyone else, so nothing to get, it’s the understanding of most posters that they don’t know everything they’re looking at. I don’t “get” hating a gender.

          9. Nunya biz, I don’t hate a gender – if that was directed to me. I also don’t know what you mean by there not being any comparison between the two – do you mean narcissism and Aspergers? I have no idea really, having limited experience with both, but they can present in similar ways. There is lots of discussion about this on this and other threads.

          10. No, sorry SMH, it wasn’t directed at you.
            I related to your comments about thinking asperger’s, I thought similar for a long time. Not that they are the same, but that my spouse might be on the spectrum. I had meant to mention you made a good insight about motivation being evident with the detection of manipulation (avoiding responsibility, etc). I think you are right, the difference probably lies in there.

          11. I agree with most of what you said, MP, relating to attachment theory and identity formation. Too many “lead” inputs is confusing at a young age. Also, regarding your spanking philosophy, my opinion is that some details are actually not as important (because it is usually difficult for one way of doing things to be the most right) as trust in consistency and intention, which is in line with what you say about people calling you a “mean mom” (that would be detrimental to the kids to believe that you are). I do have a rule that my kids are not allowed to spend any significant time around anyone who threatens their trust in the parent/child bond with me or who sets on a course of identity confusion. For example I had my daughter removed from a classroom that was poorly run by an N teacher and in which a narrative started where her behavior needed medicating (she was in there for zero more days after that was brought up).

            That being said, her behavior being criticized with reachable goals is a different story. And additionally depending on any gray area I may encourage her to tough through while offering perspective. I also refused to allow her to spend time at someone’s house who called me “crazy” repeatedly. It is incorrect and I won’t allow confusion of her perceptions regarding her primary caregiver.

            This stuff is very instinctive for me and I believe has created a a more stable identity for the kids than would be in spite of other issues. And that is why your individual parenting choices are yours and shouldn’t be judged by “mommy shamers” like we can see on social media.
            Also, I do have anger at some current gender issues and I think women’s issues are not dealt with in the way they should be at all, but I’m hoping for change. Underneath everything I believe that most of what is bad for women is also bad for men. I think men have different issues to manage also. And for sex partners for me it’s kinda like your voting, no politics in the bedroom (power plays, yes please!).
            I’ve been with women though, I’m passionately pro sexual freedom.

            Just rambling thoughts on parenting, I liked your post MP.

          12. Thank you NunyaBiz! You have explained what I wanted to explain about parenting better regarding attachment and identity. I think that it is important for kids to have complete trust in their primary caregivers’ abilities and love for them in order for them to feel safe. Feeling safe is extremely important for children in their formative years. Even if the parent is not a narcissist, if the parent is insecure about their abilities or even as a person, it can affect the child’s feeling of safety. I struggled with this as a kid and I didn’t want my kids to experience the same thing. Children depend on their parents for almost everything and if there is someone who diminishes the parent’s abilities to the child either directly or more subtle ways it does affect their feelings of safety. And I agree with you about spanking, it is not the main issue. Parents can decide what kind of culture they want in their homes whether to spank or not to spank or to be religious or atheists etc. The most important thing is that kids feel safe and cares for in their families. And that is my personal beef with people who get too involved in matters that are minor. I sensed that this was going to be a problem with my stepdaughters so I did a GOSO where I told my husband that I don’t want them at our house and he can visit with them without me but I didn’t know that they were narcissists yet so I got hoovered back. Although this time after reading HG’s works my GOSO is for good. The older stepdaughter was opinionated about me having C section and supplementing with formula because my breastmilk supply was not enough for my first child. I didn’t supplement with my second. Although they are both healthy; I really don’t see any difference. I didn’t want my kids to see me being treated by them as inferior and also they glare at my little kids and criticize their looks with the most ridiculous criticisms. It’s just not a healthy environment for my kids for them to be around.
            With gender issues, I am so neutral but I am a little worried for my son’s future for being a young white male. I hope that I don’t trigger anyone; it’s my honest feelings and I don’t want to offend anybody. I find myself siding in what I believe to be the underdogs. I remember debating with my husband recently about Biden because he was defending Biden saying that Biden was probably innocent because he is probably not malicious and he had no idea that the lady would take it the wrong way. I told my husband that it doesn’t matter what Biden thinks because he needs to be aware of other people’s boundaries and if the lady is uncomfortable with the way that he was hugging her or whatever, he should back off. So I was pretty feminist there but I also have a problem when accusations against men are untrue and there’s no due process of law. I had a problem when an activist said regarding Me Too that there will be instances when the man accused is innocent but it’s more like just a casualty because the movement is more important. That is problematic for me because unlike in wars, the soldier at least signed up for the possibility of being a casualty but a guy merely living his life and working or studying gets accused and gets his life destroyed didn’t sign up for any of that IMO.
            Regarding sexual freedom I agree with you. I don’t care about what people do in their bedrooms as long as it is not ilegal. It doesn’t affect me and it’s none of my business. People are free to do whatever makes them happy as long as they don’t cross other people’s boundaries.

        2. Hi Nunya,

          I would be lying if I said I literally hate the opposite sex, because I do not wish to harm them.
          From experience I have less trust and hope in them. So out of compassion for them and myself I choose not to invest in them romantically.
          I am more comfortable with my own kind.
          They are socialised differently so there is a lack of understanding.
          I am jaded but I also think I’m realistic.
          And there have been a few comments flying around saying that narcissists are autistic.

          1. Oh I see. Well as far as the autism question I am not SMH and I don’t have special knowledge of autism nor I do I know what specific comments you are referring to, but I assume it is related to emotional frustration with a perceived lack of intuition toward their feelings for excessive amounts of time.

            As far as trust in the opposite gender it goes back to my desire to avoid community raising of my son. While I make mistakes and cannot have an environment that is perfect in terms of psychological development I feel that manipulation and controlling behavior toward children can take very subtle and insidious forms and prefer to highly manage outside influence and I don’t personally see that as an option, my maternal responses are visceral. The narcissist almost never thinks they are one and usually thinks they know better, which is a paradox only managed by refusal and boundaries.

          2. Nunya Biz, maybe I am misreading but I think you are confusing me with someone else or maybe Witch is confusing me with someone else? I don’t have any deep personal knowledge of autism or Aspergers.

          3. Hi nunya
            Yes I do see your point about the dangers of negeative influences through community raising. This is one of the reasons I thought of as to why it’s not always practical, along with the risk of sexual abuse.
            On the other hand, if the parents are, for whatever reason, unable to meet the needs of the child and they receive appropriate support from a community, that may help to counteract the development of psychological disorders in the child.

          4. No SMH, again I apologize, I was only referring to Witch’s question about what you said about Asperger’s and responding myself. I wasn’t saying you have special knowledge about it, I was saying that I don’t- or that you hate a gender, I was referring to Witch’s comment about her being a “man-hater” type. (She responded with her own explanation).

            I was making my own point about her question to you, that’s why I said “I am not SMH” and “I don’t have special knowledge” …. because I was saying “I am jumping in with an opinion, but I am not the person you asked and my opinion is limited to my experience”.

            None of it really had anything to do with you in my comment, but I was saying that it is actually easy to think someone has a different disorder or disability than the one they actually have. I think it happens all the time and can happen with a variety of disorders, diseases, and disabilities. One thing presents as something else, it doesn’t mean people think the two things are the same, the error is in perception not in definition.

            The reason I was answering the way I was is because of the way I read Witch’s comment. It didn’t strike me exactly as requesting information so much as making an assumption that people should know the difference. If so, I am wary of an assumption like that because it doesn’t seem realistic.

            The point I was trying to make is this…
            I didn’t think that people mentioning asperger’s in terms of the narcissist has anything to do with thinking they are the same condition, but it has to with some overlapping tendencies that can make it hard for someone in an emotional situation to distinguish. Combine that with extreme exasperation and a desire to fix, explain, or even excuse and there is the likely reason. I don’t know enough about it to know about co-morbidity or anything further, but that is all I was trying to say.

            I could be wrong about what other people mean when they say it, but I figured someone would clarify or detail their own reasons because that was Witch’s question. Like I said in another comment, I had the same difficulty with my spouse and thinking he might have asperger’s (I still don’t purport to know everything, so who knows what goes on in other people), so I was just stating my impression of why people would have confusion. But if anyone wants to distinguish their own thoughts in answer to the question as different from mine, please do. I thought you did a good job explaining yourself and I agreed with what you said.

            I made another comment that went to another spot telling you that I understood your comment and related to it, I’m not sure if you saw it.

          5. Hi Nunya Biz, I see now. Thanks for explaining. I think it must be difficult to be married to someone with Aspergers too. And as you say, in an emotional situation, you (or anyone) just wants to know what is wrong and how to ‘fix’ it or if it can be fixed. Either situation (narcissist or Aspergers) would be lonely.

          6. SMH, yes in my case he can be kind, helpful, funny, and very easygoing. Which makes me think I’m crazy for the times I’m unhappy. But I also know that he has truly ignored me in painful ways for periods of time that are mind-boggling to me. As if he has decided that I am a talking head, like he simply cannot relate to what I am saying even though he will to my face nod and agree with me. It could go for months. Loneliness was pervasive for me during those times. He has a few things that made me think of Asperger’s, one is that he sometimes would stand too close to me, another is that he has what almost seems like a mild “echolalia” (repeating what I said back to me or another word) and another is an apparent inability to process complicated auditory input (and HELLO I can really TALK, I am quite articulate). I’m not saying those things are Asperger’s, just that they don’t seem like normal processing.
            The things that made me think narcissism are that he could freeze me out for a very long time and that he is teflon with taking responsibility. Like his role in something doesn’t even register. Sometimes it would make logical sense to him that I was saying something he did and he would acknowledge it, but I learned over many years of repeating the same thing that he does not truly hear me and that anything that registers is temporary. He is very good at faking agreement. I think he actually thinks he’s agreeing. Frequently decisions he has made over the years have been what he thinks is right and do include what he thinks is right for other people and he just never registered that some of it could be under-informed. He just assumes he knows. It’s not aggressive, it’s passive, he just thinks he knows. Part of my difficulty was that he never necessarily had bad intentions. I related somewhat to some of what MB described about her husband.

            Anyway, he’s improved with some things and I’ve talked to him a lot about empathy, he seems to currently understand he doesn’t really have it the way that I do and that my life experience is different. It is not worth 17 years to explain this to someone and I don’t recommend it. Along with the fact that I’ve always been a somewhat erratic person who needed stability more than anything, the challenges suck, but I can say that I probably never was realistically equipped to avoid these relationship problems. I think it makes sense I ended up in this relationship because it seemed different than what I’d experienced before, like I was making a good decision. The times I feel least lonely with him are when he jokes about himself lately. He made a martyr-ish comment a couple of weeks ago about something he had to do that I would have been happy to help with if he asked, but he has a habit of acting like I’m not there in some ways, so then he saw the impatient look on my face he stopped and said “and then after that I have to nail myself to a cross” and laughed and went back to what he was doing. Sort of relieves the tension of feeling misunderstood.

          7. Nunya Biz,

            It sounds like Aspergers to me. I am no expert but I did read up a lot on it. Your husband’s role doesn’t register because he is mind-blind/lacks empathy. From your description, his behavior overall appears to be due to obliviousness or an inability to sustain (forgetfulness?) rather than mal-intent. I have a psychologist friend who believes that she was married to an Aspie for years. He would do some of the things you describe, and also that my narc would do, for instance leaving a virtual conversation without signing off in any way. I know this guy and I find him completely without malice but also completely self-centered and oblivious.

            Some of what you describe could apply to my MRN too but I also noticed that when he wanted to, for instance, he could write up a storm. When he wanted to, he could and would sit and listen (he also talked a lot and had a good sense of humour). When he wanted to, he would stay in touch. When he wanted to, he would post his own photos on IG without copying IPPS. He never repeated back to me what I said. He could carry on quite normal conversations online and in person.

            A lot of what he did not want to do was out of lack of caring or to assert his control over me, not lack of ability or understanding. He told me whopper lies when we first met (fake name, fake email, fake marital status) and sustained those for quite awhile. That takes a mind more devious than an Aspie would have.

            He was aware there was something wrong with him but not what it was. He knew he lacked emotions, he knew he was superficial (even warned me about it), he knew he seemed like two different people, he knew that people eventually reacted poorly to him. He knew all of this.

            As you point out, this is not normal processing or easy to handle. But it’s the intentionality and deliberate manipulations that make the difference.

            I think there are support groups for women married to Aspies. I noticed them when I was looking for information. That suggests that there are lots of women in your position. Some of them cannot take it anymore but others have learned ways to cope and maybe change some of the partner’s behavior. Might be worth checking out for you, especially if there are good things about your marriage. x

          8. Hi mommypino,
            I don’t believe feminism is about voting for someone because they are female but recognising the injustice that 99.9% of the candidates to vote for are males.
            I understand the emotional response of “man hating” because men and women are socialised differently and while empathy and care giving are valued in females; a male would be viewed as a “sissy” a “wimp” “gay (with a negative view of being gay)” for being highly empathetic.
            They may experience bullying and outcasting from their male peers. Their parents would be anxious that they would turn out to be gay. Their fathers would accuse their mothers of softing the male child by providing “too much” affection.
            Ideologically we are equal, in reality we are not treated that way. Male narcissism is celebrated and encouraged socially, culturally, religiously on a global scale.
            I’d be interested to know how many male narcissists (not narcissistic but narcissists) HG comes across in comparison to female narcissists. Especially the lesser more violent varieties.
            I imagine HG has a very wide ranging dating pool when it comes to finding highly empathetic females and that is not only because their are 8billion people on the planet but it is partly because of gendered socialisation.
            I’ve witnessed a lot of women having to struggle as single parents, while the father believes it’s the duty of the mother to do most of the domestic labour and if they are looking after the children they are “babysitting.” When how are they baby sitting when it’s THEIR KID!? Then they want to use child support as a bargaining chip.
            I don’t have time for it. I understand not all men are like that, but… it’s all too common.
            I do not regret having opted out of that b*****ks.

          9. Hi Witch, I understand what you meant about feminism now and I agree that there should be equal treatment. Probably a big reason why we still haven’t had a female president here in the US is because there aren’t many women who run and so there aren’t that many options. I just had an emotional response with ‘not dating a man just because of his gender’. I would understand that if you are not attracted to them because of your sexuality but I don’t understand discriminating against them even if you can be attracted to them just because you have put them all in a box. And I had an emotional statement to NunyaBiz that I just made and still not moderated that I am already feeling guilty of and regret saying that I am worrying about my son’s future because he’s a young white male. That was a careless exaggeration because we’re upper middle class so he does have a lot of opportunity in life. I just think that people shouldn’t be put in a box before we are able to get to know them personally. I see ads saying support businesses owned by women and I am thinking why? Why do I have to support it just because the owner is a woman? There are women who lived a privileged and wealthy life and now owns a business and I have to support her business over a single dad who grew up in poverty and has to pay college debts?
            I agree that men and women are socialized differently but I don’t see one as good or bad, they are just different. With my kids, my boy is actually much more empathic than my daughter who is also an empath but she seems to have a much more impulsive and assertive temperament. She’s only two but she can make her five yr older brother cry and she hates saying sorry. I don’t think that my son is weak for being empathic, I actually love that about him. But I understand what you are saying and that is so unfortunate because people should be accepted for who they are regardless of their genders. My son’s temperament has always been like that since he was born and it’s the same with my daughter. They have been different from day one but equally precious. I grew up in the Philippines so it’s actually even worse there with the macho culture. I think it gets really bad when the father is a narcissist and views the son as an extension of himself. I agree with you Witch.

          10. Thank you SMH, that is really helpful. I think there are things along these lines that are accurate and that there are fine lines in some areas.
            He has done some very hurtful things and has pointedly ignored me when he thinks he should be able to for his own logical reasons. I tend to think it is some mental blindness issue rather than a control issue, but some of the effects are the same. He was adopted by two N parents and has three siblings, two of which are N’s.
            I know what you mean about the mal-intent. I had been with a guy who did what you described, the lying etc… I’ve been with several N’s for sure.
            My husband comes across differently to me, so I’ve never been able to sort it. As it stands we’ve not had sex in a year. I am considering going to counseling with him as he said he wanted to, I just have some major mental blocks. He did fetishize me sexually early on in the marriage and made some choices that alienated me from connecting with him intimately. Some of them I’ve a really hard time getting past. Even recently he withheld information (essentially lying) and I feel my trust has been betrayed too many times. By now I’ve made so many mistakes and compensations myself, but he is there and when we get along I feel like we are friends. He has changed some things recently in a bid to be supportive to me and it means a lot, he is his pleasant, agreeable self. There is only so much I can do though to try to return to a “normal” marriage.

            Yes, he is different from what you describe in that he cannot suddenly “choose” to communicate. I have to sort of knock him into it and it requires me getting into a stressful state. He has NEVER been able to remind me he loves me or what he likes about me or anything like that. Most gifts have been thoughtless. Most people don’t see that as an issue but have never lived with someone like that. He just shows up and walks around.

            “I know this guy and I find him completely without malice but also completely self-centered and oblivious.”

            This is how you would find my husband. The exact same as this and he is very pleasant. But my friend of many years did also until she heard him being awful to me while I was on the phone with her once. She was surprised. He doesn’t get that bad anymore, but in that moment she heard him treating me how he was when he was just “done” with me and didn’t care about my feelings at all (I think MB described some similar type stuff?). I have seen him have a switch that goes on and off, but like I said, he doesn’t do that anymore so obviously, but the obliviousness of course never disappears, so it comes out with some other hurtful thing, for example a year ago we had agreed he would go out one evening and he went, but he knew our electricity had gone out and me and the kids were in the dark. I called him to discuss it and figure out what to do but he was “out” and in his mind he was going to respond when that part of his life was finished. It hurt me but he just didn’t see why because I knew he’d be out and agreed to it.
            Thank you for “listening”, it has helped me to discuss. I will be able to figure it out in my own way, but it is complicated because I feel out of the bounds of normal relationships at this point and it’s hard to get understanding, people like to over simplify or point fingers or something so I just don’t talk about it and there’s usually no empathy for the feelings and emotional needs involved. I really appreciate your comment and will reread it and I may do some online poking around.

          11. Hi Nunya Biz,

            Glad I could be of some help. I think there are things that people do – withholding information or getting angry with each other – that can also be a part of a relationship between two normals, so it is all very difficult to sort out what is hurtful, why, what can be changed, what cannot be changed, etc.

            It still sounds to me like your husband has Aspergers and not narcissism. Even your example of him going out and leaving you all in the dark appears to be a kind of tunnel vision and not deliberately malicious. Narcs come across as insensitive but they are really hyper-sensitive or intuitive. They have to be in order to get the fuel and control that they need. Your husband just sounds like he is not sensitive.

            I don’t know what I would do in your situation but you know your situation best and, as you say, you will be able to figure it out.

            In any case, I have some good links because I bookmarked everything when I was doing my sleuthing/research (I was particularly interested in language processing at the time). Assuming HG doesn’t mind, I am posting a few here for you. The last one especially is for partners of people with Aspergers. Maybe you will find something helpful. x




          12. SMH,
            Thank you for your reply. I partially shared things that point to asperger’s intentionally, and have more specifics about things that absolutely show malice as well. Including him stating that when the electric went out he was mad at me, but honestly he seems so befuddled sometimes I feel I can potentially get past things, but I can’t do his version of what he wants, I know that.

            I’ll quit the anecdotes at this point because as you said it can get complicated even with normals. I just wanted to give an initial picture. I will read your links, thank you. I have been working toward logical decisions, but it’s hard. I may consult with HG eventually, but it’s been too confusing for me to attempt it yet.

          13. Nunya Biz, You are welcome. I am curious as to what HG would say. I hope you do consult. In the meantime, good luck with this. It sounds really difficult.

          14. SMH, I am looking at the last link first and I’m very interested in the part about “mind blind”. Very fitting.

          15. Nunya Biz, Yes, I learned all kinds of stuff from reading about Aspergers. I had never heard of mind blind but it pulled me in because it seemed like other people did not exist at all for MRN. He would even tell me that he did not understand other people’s emotions. But he was capable of understanding other people when he needed fuel, right? He did just about everything HG describes here. Both conditions are spectrum conditions as well as presenting in similar ways. Very difficult to figure out. I am not 100% sure that I have.

          16. SMH, I especially like the “how to spot” part.
            – Doesn’t recognize exceptions to rules
            – Interpret everything literally
            – Difficulty generalizing

            Yeah, confusing topic though. I will check out the other links also. I have this crap cold, everyone had got it I thought it was going to skip me. I’m going to curl up and watch a movie.

  6. HG, If a child is raised by a parent suffering from mental illness, and the other parent died when the child was 8 years old; let’s assume that child has a narcissistic GPD (being that you identified her as a narcissist) then a narcissistic parent is not automatic in the formula for the creation of the narcissistic offspring. So this still satisfies the formula of GPD + LOCE = NPD. Correct? Also, I misread the above response to the creation of an empath. I think you are saying a particular of narcissist is involved, not school of empath?

    1. You do not need a narcissist to be involved to create certain schools of empath.

      On the other matter, if a child who has GPD loses their parents (neither of whom are narcissists) when he is say 6 and is thus orphaned, if this environment thereafter is one conducive to the creation of a narcissist, then you have GPD and the LOCE even though there is no narcissist parent invovled and thus a narcissist will still arise in that child.

  7. Hello all, Since the earlier post this year of “To Control is to Cope”, I have pursued more research on the genetics. Hopefully these summations will be helpful to the commenters discussions below.

    The short answer:

    Genes do not specify behavior directly, but rather encode molecular products that build and govern the functioning of the brain through which behavior is expressed. Brain development, brain activity and behavior depend on both inherited and environmental influences, and there is increasing appreciation that social information can in turn impact brain gene expression and behavior. Furthermore, variation in behavior shapes the evolution of genomic elements that influence social behavior through the feedback of natural selection. (Robinson, et al 2019)

    The specifics:

    On dementia:
    In dementia, researchers found that lack of a gene called “lysine specific histone demethylase 1 (LSD1) triggers brain cell death, leading to cognitive abnormalities comparable to those seen in people with Alzheimer’s disease and frontotemporal dementia (FTD).” (Katz, et al)

    In Alzheimer’s, it is the occurrence of the retention of Beta Amyloid in the brain that attacks the synapses prior to creating plaques and tangles. (For those interested, a new test can determine up to 30 years prior if a person will develop Alzheimers by testing the presence of this protein indicating a lack of the ability to flush this protein effectively.)

    On genetics:
    Chromosomes come in pairs (one from each parent). All cells in the human body (except red blood cells) contain chromosomes. A gene is located on a chromosome. Genes specify certain proteins that make up each cell. Every factor of inheritance is due to a specific gene. Genes contain DNA. DNA is the basis of heredity. Genes contain two pairs of alleles. Alleles are responsible for gene expression. Generally speaking, a child is likely to share 50% of DNA with a parent or full sibling, however, due gene expression, a sibling can have far more or far less shared genes (more unusual). Technically, siblings can even have no shared genes, but this is extremely rare.

    On Paternal Influence:
    With regard to genes, we have more activated genes of the father than the mother.

    On Maternal Influence:
    The mother plays a critical role in gene expression for the child. Lack of loving attunement with a child between the ages of 0-6 has direct influence over the activation of gene expression (igniting the gene alleles). Further, the mother either supports or destroys the infants conceptualization of “true self”. In the absence of acceptance of true self, reliance upon the false self emerges too early and is utilized as a defense mechanism for survival (ie, narcissism and APD are activated).

    At birth, we have all of our brain cells (neurons) that we will have in adulthood, but it is the connections (synapses) between these cells that truly make the brain work. In early childhood, ages 0-5, over a million synapses are created every second. Surprisingly, even higher functions such as self-regulation, motivation, problem solving and communication are developed at the time. It is much harder (not impossible) to develop these skills at a later time. So, at the time we are literally forming the all important skill providing synapses, scientists note that if we have a mother that does not affirm our true self we may actually NOT develop certain synapses.

    On fMRI Scans:
    fMRI scans of narcissists and APD individuals show not a lack of brain cells nor brain death, but a lack of activity upon stimulus. This lack of stimulus may be due to the creation of necessary synapses (as discussed above) or due to a pattern of learned stimulous/response. More research is required to effectively support direct correlations.

    In summation:
    HG is absolutely correct. Science to date confirms BOTH heritability and behavioral influence are required to ignite what is known as Narcissism and APD. If anyone would like links to the above referenced research I would be happy to share them.

    1. FYC thank you very much for taking the time to obtain the evidence in support of what I have repeatedly explained (albeit in more straightforward terms to assist people). I appreciate you doing so. I will be interested to see the response to this careful and credible piece of work from certain readers.

      1. HG, You are most welcome. Actually, you deserve the credit, as you inspired this research due to your earlier post and our resulting discussion. I am happy to share the result and grateful I acquired the knowledge. Thank you and best regards.

    2. FYC
      Thank you, it was an interesting read and I didn’t fade to black like I usually do with medical information. The most important takeaway was that both genetics and environment are in play in developing narcissism, but interestingly enough I found a few that may have had, or may yet have, an effect on my gene encoding also:

      I’m hoping to avoid dementia due to some experimenting with LSD early on.

      If I share 50% DNA from either parent, and if at birth I had all of the brain cells that I would have as an adult, was 100% fucked from day one.

      1. NarcAngel, you are certainly welcome, and I’m glad it was not too painful a read. I laughed at your final analysis. You are not fucked at all! You may have suffered a fucked up set of circumstances and survived a childhood of serious dysfunctional behavior, but you clearly triumphed. You are strong. You thrive. You give back. And I hope you have healed as well.

        As for your genetics, if I recall correctly, your father (or stepfather?) is NPD and your mother is a coD. So my assumption in your case is you did not get the N gene. Your environment may have contributed to your narcissistic elements, but you put them to good use from what I have read thus far.

      2. NA, you will be relieved to know, I Googled drugs correlated with dementia/Alzheimer’s disease (D/A) and found that current studies show no direct evidence of a link between LSD and D/A. That said, *chronic* use of certain OTC and prescriptive meds do show a positive correlation as a contributing factor to D/A. These include alcohol, tobacco, sleeping aides, opioids, diazepam, diphenhydramine (found in NyQuil and ZzzQuil and Benedryl), cocaine and cannabis, etc. Not sure of the degree to which each influences onset of D/A. Other contributing factors are obisity and high blood pressure.

        1. FYC
          Haha. You got that was a take on your 3rd paragraph re: dementia and LSD1 and came back at me. Love that. In reality I think I’m safe due to all things in moderation.

    3. FYC,
      That is very interesting and informative. Thank you very much for your comment and for doing the research required. It makes me think how complex the subject of “personality” is. There are numerous different biological aspects involved. And that’s before you add the many potential effects of parenting and environmental conditions.

      1. Thank you, WiserNow, and you are very welcome. Actually personality development is a different area and vastly interesting. We are very complex indeed!

        1. FYC
          I am doing very well, thanks. Your research was very thorough and I really appreciate that. When I have the time, I am going to compose a new and improved empath limerick from scratch.

          1. K

            There once was an Empath named K
            A Librarian all through the day
            But at night in Tudor Towers
            She acquired super powers
            And assisted others in finding their way.

          2. NA. Lol. BRAVO. ENCORE. (Roses being thrown) you could do a coffee table book

          3. NarcAngel
            Ha ha ha…that is awesome! I love it and it’s much better than the one I lost, too!

    4. FYC, This is so well written. Thank you for explaining it so well. I just saw this now hours after I commented earlier b I didn’t bother to scroll down. I’m glad that you explained about the gene expression (I used the wrong word-extracted in my comment earlier) because merely carrying the genes doesn’t automatically make one a psychopath or a narcissist. These genes need to be expressed just like what James Fallon explained and the expression of these genes is from the environmental factors. It is so important that you mentioned about the role of the mother and the development of synapses or brain connections (integrations) during the first few years of a child. I have read Brain Rules for Babies written by a neuroscientist and The Whole-Brain Child which cited studies that support how loving touches, soothing calm voice, and caring attention from the caregivers do affect the wiring of the brain of a child.
      I love that you said that it is not about a lack of brain cells because I wanted to comment on that to. It is more about the wiring of the brain; the brain cells are present but there is no activity in certain areas because the person didn’t develop the proper integration or use of those parts. That’s why they evolved into adulthood as someone whose brains function as having no need for love or attachment etc. Even conflict management, resolution, healthy acceptance of emotions are taught by the primary caregiver to a child which wires the child’s brain.

      1. Hello Mommypino, Thank you for sharing your kind and detailed response. I appreciate your contributions as well (and for sharing the pubmed studies you found previously). I find this area of study extremely fascinating and continue to pursue a greater understanding. I think you may enjoy It curates the latest research studies and is user friendly.

        I am currently investigating the scientific underpinnings of empathy. I will post a comment on what I have learned soon.

        1. You’re welcome FYC! I can’t wait to read what you find out about the scientific underpinnings of empathy!

    5. FYC, I like your information, thank you!
      In your summation, you say that science confirms heritability is required to ignite NPD and APD. I was under the assumption that there is considerable speculation and many theories about the causes of NPD. Maybe you referred to a specific research? If so, I would be interested!

      1. Hello Shesaw, You are correct, there are many extant theories on the origins of narcissism. Most are psychological/behavioral theory.

        My comment, “both heritability and behavioral influence are required to ignite what is known as Narcissism and APD,” is in reference to genetic and neuroscientific evidence on the matter.

        I have not saved all studies I have read, but I did provide some of the links I referenced that were directly quoted. If you and other readers are interested, I will save more links and share them as I continue my studies, if this is desirable.

        I would like to hear HG’s thoughts on the matter as I do not want to detract from the far more important purpose of this blog (to recognize narcissists, understand their motivations, learn how to avoid and escape abuse, become F.R.E.E. and remain ever resisting).

        Thank you.

        1. Thank you FYC, knowledge is part of the healing proces, don’t you think? ;)
          The links you provided were all about genetics in general + Alzheimer, not about NPD, hence my curiosity. Thanks anyway!

          1. Yes, shesaw, it certainly is for me.

            I will need to backtrack in my searches. I will offer more links shortly.

          2. Hi shesaw, Upon review of the many articles I read available in my search history (many were not as they were read on my iPad and that history was cleared), I would like to apologize for being too general in my comment using the word “confirms”. I should have been more precise and used the word “supports.”

            The scientific community broadly accepts the theory that both genetics and environment are necessary for NPD/APD as genes alone do not dictate behavior as earlier referenced. But all disciplines agree that more research is necessary for a clear understanding of all contributing factors and their interrelationship.

            The study of NPD/APD spans the fields of phychology, biology, neurology, genetics and epigenetics), the current body of research seems to coalesce on the following equation:

            Genetics + Cognitive Function + Environmental Influences = Expressed NPD/APD

            Bear in mind there is not a single gene marker for NPD/APD, but rather several gene markers that contribute to function/dysfunction of various neurochemical functions in several regions of the brain. Social environment influences genes to turn on or off. Studying these processes in isolation is necessary as well as how they interrelate and transact together.

            Back to your request on NPD/APD, here are a few links with quotes:


            “Narcissistic personality disorder…has a prevalence of 6.2% in the general population, higher in men (7.7%) than in women (4.8%) [81]. Its heritability estimate is 77% based on a clinical sample [32] and 24% in the general population, and there is no shared environmental influence or sex effect [27]. Limited results have revealed an association between 5-HTTLPR and the narcissism trait; for example, Sadeh et al. [82] reported an interaction between 5-HTT and the availability of socioeconomic resources based on the narcissism score of the 20-item self-report Antisocial Process Screening Device [83].”


            Genetic and Neuroimaging Features of Personality Disorders: State of the Art: Guorong Ma , et al

            “In recent years, increasing evidence from various studies has shown distinctive features of personality disorders, and that from genetic and neuroimaging studies has been especially valuable. Genetic studies primarily target the genes encoding neurotransmitters and enzymes in the serotoninergic and dopaminergic systems, and neuroimaging studies mainly focus on the frontal and temporal lobes as well as the limbic-paralimbic system in patients with personality disorders. ”

            A further key study, “A behavior genetics analysis on the agency-communion model of narcissism,” by Luo, et al, 2014, is frequently quoted in many studies, but requires you pay for the full study. So I will instead include a quote:

            “…The two dimensions of narcissism, intrapersonal grandiosity and interpersonal entitlement, are heritable and largely independent of each other in terms of their genetic and environmental sources. These findings extend our understanding of the heritability of narcissism on the one hand. On the other hand, the study demonstrates the rationale for distinguishing between intrapersonal and interpersonal dimensions of narcissism, and possibly personality in general as well.”

            Genetic and environmental influences on human behavioral differences: (McGue et al.)

            “Human behavioral genetic research aimed at characterizing the existence and nature of genetic and environmental influences on individual differences in cognitive ability, personality and interests, and psychopathology is reviewed…The observation of genotype-environment correlational processes and the hypothesized existence of genotype-environment interaction effects serve to distinguish behavioral traits from the medical and physiological phenotypes studied by human geneticists. Behavioral genetic research supports the heritability, not the genetic determination, of behavior.”

            The Heritability of Cluster B Personality Disorders Assessed both by Personal Interview and Questionnaire

            “In conclusion, when both interview and self-report questionnaire are taken into account, the heritability of Cluster B PD appears to be in the upper range of previous findings for mental disorders.”

            Genome-wide Epigenetic Regulation by Early-Life Trauma

            “Childhood adversity is associated with epigenetic alterations in the promoters of several genes in hippocampal neurons.”

            Further notes:

            NPD genetic linkage:
            “Evidence was found for a linkage on chromosomes 1,4,9, and 18. The highest linkage peak was found on chromosome 9p at marker D9S286 with a logarithm of odds score of 3.548 (empirical P=0.0001).”

            Study Disclaimers:

            Current methods used rely heavily upon a self-report questionnaires, or the use of specific photographs or audio visual segments for subject to view/listen to during fMRI scans, etc.). All of these methods have many recognized limitations that influence interpretation accuracy. There are also limitations evident in subject selection, sample size, selection bias, etc.

            Hope this was more helpful for you, shesaw.

  8. “Think of it as a spectrum…”

    Okay. I will try.
    Thank-you for your patience in answering my questions.

  9. HG,

    “Her genetic situation was ineffect close to GPD but not GPD,…”

    I know genetics are complicated however I get stuck on this statement above since, to me, it is like saying “you’re a little bit pregnant” – because either you are pregnant or you are not.

    Thank-you for that explanation though. I do understand the intricacies of baking a cake – and I’m enjoying the irony of ‘baking discussion’ being your chosen example :-D

    1. Think of it as a spectrum rather than a ‘you are or you are not’ scenario. As you know, you can be narcissistic but not be a narcissist.

      1. HG and WhoCares

        I love this exchange. A clear demonstration of articulating and requesting a respectful and concise clarification rather than insulting or challenging, and the resulting considered and clear (with examples) explanation.

        1. Indeed. This is a place for varying ideas, questions and observations. I will often disagree and will explain why. I encourage people to express their views and to do so in a fair-minded and constructive way. Ask all your like and doing so in a respectful manner will result in you getting the best from the experience. Do not be upset or disheartened if/when I disagree and do not be upset/disheartened by my directness and succinct approach – needs must.

        2. NarcAngel,

          Thanks for your observations. I love so many of the ongoing conversations on Narcsite.

          I have learned so much here. Not just with regard to my entanglement (and what the hell that was all about) and a lot about myself. Plus, (I don’t speak a lot about it here because they are such ‘controversial’ topics for some) HG’s work on Narcissism has very much informed and illuminated a lot of questions I’ve had about psychology in general and the phenomenon of religion – both of which I have personal interest in and some formal education in. His understanding of narcissists and narcissism in general is immediately applicable in most people’s lives and has much broader ramifications. Finally, I’ve seen how his work is accurate in my personal life – which makes me a very eager student to learn more!

  10. HG,

    “1. No genetic predisposition (“GPD”) and lack of control environment (“LOCE”) = no narcissist.”

    In Chained you explain a Codependent as one on their way to becoming a narcissist (that assumes a genetic predisposition) and I believe you have stated that your sister is a Codependent.

    In now stating that she would fall under scenario #1; you’re suggesting that she never had a predisposition?

    “Hence I was 3, my brother and sister 1.”

    Have I misunderstood somewhere?

    1. If my sister had a GPD she would have become a narcissist. Her genetic situation was in effect close to GPD but not GPD, hence the formation of narcissism commenced but was arrested/stunted/failed to develop. Think akin to baking a cake – the oven temperature is correct but the ingredients are close but not just right, so the cake does not turn out as it ought to have done.

      You could also have someone who has a GPD to narcissism and the environment causes them to develop towards narcissism but something alters in that environment so the narcissism does not occur. A little akin to baking a cake – the ingredients are right but part way through the oven is switched off so again the cake does not turn out as it ought to have done.

          1. Emp, forgive me for responding in your place, but I can’t resist! Q – “Are you now hungry?!” R – “Always…how many calories does that cake have?”

      1. The baking analogy is helpful to me. I assume it’s about how subtly complex the interplay of several genes as well as epi-gentics is.
        I’m still not understanding some of what makes an empath because it almost seems like you are saying that a person cannot be an empath without some of the elements of narcissism or narcissist exposure?

        1. Your second sentence is absolutely accurate.

          As for the creation of the empath, there does not need to necessarily be narcissist exposure (but if there is, this will result in a particular school of narcissist) for an empath to be created.

          1. HG

            “As for the creation of the empath, there does not need to necessarily be narcissist exposure (but if there is, this will result in a particular school of narcissist) for an empath to be created.”

            Which school of Empath?

            I am actually hesitant to asked this……

          2. E & L, I have a similar guess. Although HG said previously that one doesn’t automatically become a codependent if raised by narcissists. Although I can feel that I have codependent tendencies (I was raised by a narc), I don’t think that I am a codependent. This is another article that I’m looking forward to seeing.

          3. Oh wait, I probably misunderstood. Maybe HG meant that for an empath to be created with exposure to a narcissist, the narcissist that the empath has been exposed to has to come from a particular school. Is it the Mid-range? So that probably means I’m actually a Normal and not an Empath because I was raised by a Lesser? I can’t wait for that article HG!

          4. Mommypino

            I took it that HG was saying an Empath would have to be exposed to a specific narcissist to be created.

  11. I’m sure, and many won’t believe because it’s not what they were taught, that narcissist’s are born. I know this from my own experience with my own newborn. They are born with something missing, a missing connection, and they are born with entitlement, superiority, and a smugness. Narcissism is genetic either way you believe, whether it’s that they were born or that it’s developed in childhood. MRI’s show physical proof amygdala is deficient and abnormal in narcissists. I don’t believe their brain becomes deficient in childhood, but that they were born with this physical defect. Prior to the brain scans discovery, people had theorized that narcissism developed from either childhood abuse or from being spoiled and doted over too much- well that is opposite and pretty much finds a way to cover it from all corners- but it’s not accurate to me.

    A narcissist has a different perception of the way people behave with them than empaths do. And it’s highly likely too that if a person is born with narcissism that there is a good chance there’s a narcissist parent and even grandparents at home with them. An empath endures a lot of mental abuse by that family and is able to keep a level head- they have the same gene pool- but their brains don’t become deficient in amygdala. The narcissist child sees a situation differently than the empath siblings, they are slighted whereas the empaths aren’t, the narcissist feels harshly wounded whereas the empath standing alongside them takes it in stride.

    I say this from my own personal experience with a child that was born disconnected and independent, not cuddly huggy, that was entitled, defiant and manipulative as a toddler. Here I am an empath, but we were at my narcissist’s mother’s house temporarily at the time, and like something out of Children of the Corn, this toddler instinctively knew how to get her way -with a sneer on her face no less- using my mother, and my mother in turn ensnared her for her own purposes. No – there was no child abuse going on to create her and no excessive doting over.

    You can have your own opinions from what you’ve been taught in the past or googled and all the old theories, but I’m an empath mother and I know what I’ve experienced first hand, which was long before the MRI proof of a narcissist’s amygdala.

    When my narcissist brother came out of the closet and we were discussing his homosexuality, I asked him if it was a choice. He flared up: Of course it’s not a choice, why would I choose this? I think the same is true of narcissism. My cerebral brother and I grew up in the same home with the same gene pool, my brain didn’t lose its amygdala and I’m pretty sure I’ve got a good dollop of healthy narcissism in me despite the overriding empath traits. My brother and I usually had the same opinions on issues, we were on the same wavelength, but he was a narcissist and I wasn’t.

    My daughter to this day is a hypochondriac. She’s angered doctors who have told her outright that she is. She can’t believe them. I’ve talked to her about my mother’s narcissism since she’s living with her, now that mom has dementia, and she completely understands it and can see it in her grandmother. Knowing about it has helped her deal with my mother much better without being wounded by her as harshly. I think every narcissist knows there’s something up with them. They don’t explore it to try to figure it out. They are a little puzzled by it but they ignore it, and continue on blindly with their narcissism.

    1. Kel

      I agree with you.
      I believe it is genetic and why they all operate from the same book is due to learning the behaviors from someone close to them which in turn develops the narcissist.
      I don’t believe they all develop into a narcissist thou. Environment has an effect on things to.

      1. I agree Twilight, I think you can lessen their narcissistic tendencies by the way you raise them. You can’t fill in those missing brain cells that give us empathy, but you can teach them cognitive empathy.

        1. Kel

          I think it is more teaching them different ways that are constructive vs destructive in acquiring their fuel. Cognitive empathy is needed so they understand, so I see your point.

      2. Twilight, if a narcissist is genetics only, are you saying that a narcissist child born than taken away from their narcissist parent and raised in a healthy environment will never develop narcissist behavior?

        1. Mercy

          No I believe they will develop better coping mechanism and the genetic disposition of narcissism will never develop the narcissistic self defense mechanism.

        2. Sorry Mercy, I know your message was meant for Twilight but I hope you don’t mind me commenting?

          Your question (from my experience), would be yes. They are born Narcissists, no matter what. Whoever looks after them will not change who they are. If Mr Tudor was given up for adoption to two Empathic loving parents with healthy personalities, he would still be who he is today because of his biological genetics.

          The different environment and lack of abuse (from his mother, in this case) would possibly just change the way he deals with situations and maybe given him a happier outlook. But this is only an assumption based on Psychopathic/killer documentaries I’ve seen, that mainly focuses on the family dynamic of ‘what makes a killer’.

          1. Wrong.

            Narcissists occur as a consequence of genetic predisposition AND environmental impact.

          2. That’s what I’m trying to say Mr Tudor. I agree with you. It is both.

            If you ‘had’ been brought up by two empathic non-biological parents, what differences do you think there would be from the person you are today?

          3. HG,
            I agree with you that a ‘narcissist’ is the product of both genetic predisposition and environmental impact. Having said that, it’s also possible that Kel and other commenters are describing ‘narcissistic’ tendencies in babies and childhood. At that young age, a child would not be a full-blown ‘narcissist’, however, it would be possible to detect ‘narcissistic’ traits in them.

          4. Sarah Jane

            I agree and am relieved someone else has experienced it too. I know that Windstorm has said she noticed differences in her narcissist baby as well. We can’t change them, we don’t create them, their brains don’t change composition after they are born. The only thing I can think is if my unhappiness during my daughters pregnancy had anything to do with her brain development – I know my father told me at the time that being unhappy can make the baby unhappy. If people noticed that in the old days and it got forgotten with the progress of modern medicine, then maybe it’s something worth looking into.

            HG, until the day you carry a child, give birth to it, and try to bond with someone who’s got something missing, you don’t know. Do you really believe your brain can lose mass in your toddler to 10 years? Or do you just have to blame your narcissism on your mother. No doubt there was abuse in your household with a narcissist mother and so many relatives with it. Your empath siblings suffered from the abuse too, and very badly from what happened to your brother with Leslie(?) or “it”.

            Brain mass can shrink over a lifetime and cause dementia – not really the amygdala, a stroke can deprive oxygen to the brain. Many people are physically and mentally abused and have the same narcissist gene pool, but don’t lose their amygdala as children. It makes a lot more sense that someone is born with that missing in their brain, than someone who actually loses it at such a young age, and it is something I and other women have experience in our babies. Toddlers have empathy, it is manners and being polite to others that they learn at a young age.

          5. No, you are failing to understand.

            You are not born a narcissist. You are born with a genetic predisposition towards narcissism and it is ‘activated’ by the environment in which one is raised.

            Thus :-

            1. No genetic predisposition (“GPD”) and lack of control environment (“LOCE”) = no narcissist.
            2. GPD but no LOCE = no narcissist
            3. GPD plus LOCE = narcissist.

            Hence I was 3, my brother and sister 1.

          6. Yes, I get this. It’s just the difference between ‘ic’ and ‘t’. Ok, so the toddler IS narcissistIC – and with a LOCE ‘becomes’ a Narcissist.

          7. Agreed on the majority there, Kel.

            Interesting point. But I’m not so sure that (after conception) changes in our brain would affect the baby’s brain emotion-wise. Something to ponder on there for me. An outer foreign force, like cocaine for example proves that to be the case, so why not attachment emotion? Hmm. Is it possible for a newborn to ‘crave’ positive vibes from having suffered mutual negative ones (from the mother) in the womb, like it would crave the absent cocaine kick, I wonder?

            I’m not even sure what I’m trying to say myself – there’s an obvious ‘cut-off’ point to my upstairs (ha).

          8. HG

            I do understand what you are saying – You are not listening or considering what I am saying. How do you know that what people have theorized is correct – how do you know they won’t prove that people are actually born with those cells missing – which makes more scientific sense than losing those cells so quickly in life? It takes a lifetime for cells to shrink in dementia.

            Do you really think you lost brain cells in your amygdala when you were a child?

          9. It is nothing to do with losing cells in later life. I have explained how we are created previously.

            What do you think the genetic predisposition is?

          10. All I know about the amygdala is that it can be ‘hijacked’ and cause violent outbreaks in people who have suffered abuse for years – sometimes leading to murder. So, it would appear that the amygdala is what gets damaged/altered/affected when the Empathic side of things deteriorates through abuse – because this is the part of the brain which is stunted/damaged in Narcissists.

          11. HG
            I think it means the gene runs in your family, one sibling might get it and the other not. You didn’t address the MRI proof of the amygdala, which, incidentally, I learned about from one of your comments early on.
            But I’m happy to just have my observations and thoughts posted.