Poll : Where Have You Experienced Poor Information About Narcissism?
When you start looking for it, you can find a lot of information out there with regard to narcissism. Some of it is valid, some of it is useful but they do not convey everything you need to know. Some of it is wrong and peddles myths about our behaviour which is unhelpful and misleading. Some of the information is downright dangerous in that it fails to recognise narcissism and/or encourages action and behaviours which are contrary to your best interests.
Some of you have had this misfortune before coming across my work but then realised you had found the Holy Grail and rightly jettisoned the poor providers. Some of you have been a little naughty and continued with other providers alongside my work and some of those other providers might not have assisted you (even confused you) to the extent you needed.
Where have you found poor information about narcissism? Where have you had a poor experience with regard to understanding narcissism?
Have you picked up a book which is meant to be about narcissism and thought ‘this is rubbish’? Have you consulted with a victim only to find they use it as a means of charging you for offloading and ranting about their own experiences? Have you seen something on a blog and thought that is nonsense? Perhaps you have encountered hostility on a YouTube page or on a supposed support forum from those operating the page of forum? Have you consulted with a relationship advisor who failed to identify you were with a narcissist and you found out later from my work or somewhere else that this person was a narcissist? Have you read an online page which passes narcissism off as something else and dangerously so? Have you had a supposed professional fail you?
Whatever it is, take the poll and you may choose up to three of the poorest experiences you have suffered or encountered and as usual do expand in the comments section.
Thank you for participating.
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Luckily, I found you first. Still, I ended up talking with a therapist for about 3 months, but he didn’t know crap about Narcissism. He fell back on the old “Adult/Parent/Child” relationship scenarios. He was good just to talk to about familial issues, but not to learn anything regarding your kind from. You still, and always will, hold that top spot.
I went to a therapist who tried to convince me that narcissism isn’t real and that maybe the Lesser needed another chance. It didn’t go well. I had paid for another session prior but he asked me not to come back. He also informed me that I “wasn’t a good fit” for his group sessions.
It took me a long time to find HG and to grasp the concepts. There was no way I could go back. I felt abused and betrayed from this “therapy” interaction and let him know straight away that his method was negligent.
I’m finished with online blogs about narcissism. I try to help and share this blog with the victims. The “Angels with Dirty Faces” don’t like that. There is no sharing of anything other than “light and love.” I find this insulting. Empaths intensely feel anger just like all the other feelings. The negative emotions can’t be ignored. We learn from narcissists who get a tremendous amount of drive from these feelings.
Not a day goes by that I don’t quote this blog and share it with someone. Especially when I see empaths going in circles… “why did he do this?” “Why?” “Why?” That’s when they are the closest to escape. If they can just realize that their confusion is the point. They want you to spin and some would rather spin than face the world as it truly is. It’s not easy.
Jess, I hear you. A friend went through the why, why, why when her narc suddenly discarded her last year for the second time. He then reappeared after a full year and proposed marriage. She turned him down but she is now letting him back into her life. It is sad to see her pretending that she doesn’t care either way but already pushing her friends aside to accommodate him.
I sent her here at one point but all she said was yeah, sounds like him, and then went right back to cracking open the door. I went back and forth many times too, but then no one ever led me straight to the horse’s mouth and mine didn’t discard me – I always left. Plus, my friend has a very good shrink who told her exactlty what her narc is. She won’t listen and it’s not worth it to me to confront her and alienate her. When she brings him up, I change the subject or simply say ‘that’s nice.’ I know it frustrates her that I won’t engage with it but hey, I tried and I don’t know what it takes.
Jessrnny: Wow! A thought in the back of my mind was encroaching my consciousness that the New Age or Mysticism Movement, or Holistic Movement, or whatever it is now called, was making headway into the world of therapy. This is not going to work out well. Lots of people could be mangled or killed. Danger exists and can not be chanted away, so to speak. I am so sorry you had that type of treatment. It is not good at all. Well, I know you feel you hit the jackpot here. Human behaviour under a steady microscope. The good and bad and ugly. Like a good drink: Straight up and Neat.
Anyone else been watching about NXIVM and keith Reiner? it’s so obvious the guy is a narc and NOBODY SAYS IT!!!
HG I think if u did a post on Keith Reiner you would be a HIT. people are so blind. Thank you for opening up our eyes HG!
I can’t vote for some reason but I don’t think I found any really poor advice except about emotional unavailability. The main helpful things were 1) watching the TV series The Fall – I suddenly knew what MRN was; 2) finding Vaknin. I worked it all out years ago.
However, and this is a big however, I second guessed myself all the time and had no idea what it meant in real life until I found HG. Since I had already escaped MRN, I haven’t had to put the info to use with him. But it has made me recognize red flags in lots of other potential (and past) love interests and therefore weaknesses in myself.
So, HG has helped me to understand what went wrong with MRN (someone I did really care about) and to become much more self-aware/protective. I don’t see it as being less open or that I have lost any of my ‘innocence’ – I just see it as good information that everyone should have about unhealthy relationships.
As far as support groups, blogs, YouTube pages, and therapist, I’m at the phase in my healing where my energy is shifting away from the Narcissistic Abuse, back to me. When I first realized something wasnt right about the relationship I was in, and I found it odd there was patterns to the behavior of my ex, I researched like crazy trying to find out what was going on. I binged on reading articles, and watching YouTube videos. I think I pretty much subscribed to them all. After a while, it’s healthy to have the tools (thanks HG), and to start working on your defenses. Right now, I am in one closed support group on FB, and I set the notifications to where I cant see anyone’s post on my feed, unless I actually go to the site and make a conscious decision that I will only spend 15 min there a week.
HG’s Blog, Narcsite is the only one I frequent, and have been for over 3 years now. In a way, I know I am breaking HG’s No Contact Rules because I still talk about my experiences here. I appreciate that most of the readers do not have a victim mentality, and we are here to learn, ask questions, have healthy debates, and help those who are just figuring things out.
Even though I do not watch other Narcissist Expert’s videos or read their blogs, I am still subscribed and I follow who put out a video on what.
Everyone has their own individual lessons they have to learn from dealing with Narcissistic abuse. My lessons were, the best things in life are simple and not sparkly, fight for yourself but dont get emotional and let the fighting consume you, I wasn’t “crazy” I just didnt know myself, and it was all about learning how to love-the narcissist has tried to damage my relationships with my support network, it has only gotten stronger.
Writing about your experiences here Anm of course is a form of engagement and thus will increase emotional thinking to an extent, however it is offset by the logic, knowledge and understanding you gain (primarily from me and also from other readers) and thus is acceptable. It is the sitting around thinking about the narcissist with no tangible benefit which is problematic, or sitting with friends going over ‘why did he do this’ in minute detail and not receiving the right answers which is also problematic.
Thank you, HG, for helping me seize the power
You are welcome.
Dear Mr Tudor,
Hear hear ….jolly good I say, spot on, well done
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
ANM
Those are great lessons to learn for all of us. You appear to have a great outlook and practical approach to learning in all of this. I’m glad to read that you are shifting the focus back to you now with what you have learned here and that you feel you are stronger. Your kids will see and feel that too.
Thanks. It’s a journey, NA.
Anm
Ha. We need better travel agents.
Very refreshing read by Anm.
Thank-you Rainbow in the Dark – I saw both replies ♡
“WhoCares thank you!
Fist bump to the children of the MatriNarc
We will prevail.”
There are some bad psychology channels out there who inform you that narcissists can change with time and understanding.
I also find non-HG material shallow and incomplete. ‘The covert narcissist’ and ‘supply’. Yawn.
Vaknin understands it very well but as we’ve discussed, his language is text speak and it’s harder to visualize in real world contexts. HG puts it into real world perspective and has more artful flair.
One channel claimed that you could be married to a narc for 30 yrs and never see any signs of narcissism. Huh?
Mostly just bad women’s magazines with crap relationship advice that makes it seem like the emapth needs to give more and be more understanding. That junk is exactly why I remained stuck for so long.
Other channels are by ‘life coaches’ who give shallow advice that I could find on Psychology Today.
There is another channel out there who claims that the sociopath stare does not exist. Well, I have seen it many times.
Other sites claim that anyone involved with a narc is a codependent and other such nonsense.
Their advice is akin to putting a band aid on a bleeding wound, rather than knowing that the bleeding needs to be stopped with a tourniquet.
I will have to think. I know I can come up with more.
Dear Mr Tudor,
My lovely young late 20’s female GP was most sympathetic, however, was unable to give me any advice, so she suggested I see a female pyschologist
(a discounted 10 weekly sessions, with a bonus set of steak knives thrown in for free)
I asked the late 40ish psychologist, if she knew anything about narcissism …she replied “yes”, then immediately asked where I saw myself in 5 years …. I told her at my age, I’d be lucky to wake up tomorrow (she had no sense of humour)
She mentioned a few basic things I already knew from a 2 year olds behaviour
She had no idea …I could’ve taught her some “real life” basics … haha
I never went back
Not making any progress, I took it upon myself to research further coming across various you tube videos ( I leaned toward the male videos) they helped, but lacked the answers I was looking for as they were all “victims”
I’m also extremely disappointed with relationship advice from so called experts, never addressing narcissistic/npd behaviour, could be at play
I discovered Sam Vaknin and thought, you beaut, a narc, however, I couldn’t hear him clearly from his audio, or understand his strong accent and trying to endure his textbook reading, for me, was boring and dreary
I kept searching and “voila”, I accidentally came across your blog
To have a real, top gun of your game “greater narcissist” doesn’t get any better
Your writing (and audio) is beautiful, clear, concise, in depth, no stone is left unturned and your unique ability to “empathise” with us, is amazing
Your description in minute detail, (as if stepping into our bodies and seeing both sides) is extrordinary, who else could do that ?
For me, your “interaction” with your followers is the “main” attraction (along with your books, videos, polls and now instagram) …it just keeps getting better
You definitely reign supreme 🤴
Thank you Mr Tudor
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Bubbles I always enjoy when you comment! But this one is going down as one of your best yet!! 😘😘🥂🍾
Dear Fool Me 1 Time,
Awe shucks honey bunny 🐰 ….
You flatter me gorgeous one, I’ll have a head as big as Mr Tudor soon (no offence Mr Tudor) 🤣
Thank you so very much
I’m extremely humbled
You’re not so bad yourself you clever little sweet tingle thing you
Mucho mwah n hugs to you lovely one 💋🤗
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Bubbles you certainly are one of a kind! Please don’t ever change!! 😘🙃
Dear Fool Me 1 Time,
(Do you know how hard that is to type your name compared to before?) up n down like a yo yo dear 🤣
Ooooooo ….. To quote Mrs Doubtfire……. .” He broke the mould when he made me, dear
He made me very special !
🤣
Thank you my lovely cup cake
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Ditto, Bubbles. Yes, HG’s interaction makes much a difference. Vaknin will insult his readers if they ask something he does not like.
‘That is a stupid question,’ he will say to someone who is genuinely trying to learn. Oy. That guy has NO. SENSE. OF. HUMOR.
Dear Bibi,
Thank you so kindly for your response
It appears all Sam V is doing, is proving he’s a narc and hasn’t got his act together in his professional capacity as an educational speaker ….. perhaps he should seek a few pointers from Mr Tudor 😂
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Ha ha, very good.
Dear Mr Tudor,
Credit where credits due… hehe
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Ps …Happy Easter Mr Tudor and to all the lovelies here
🐰🐣🐰🐣
Happy Easter Bubbles, and everyone else! 😘🐣🐥🐇🦚
Happy Easter Bubbles! and to HG and everyone here 🐰🍫🐣
Wiser Now. Happy Easter.
Oh Bubbles you’re on a roll today!!! 🤣🙃🥰
Dear Fool Me 1 Time,
You should see me rock n
🤣
Luv Bubbles 😘
Hahaha! 🤣🤣🤣😘
Dear Fool Me 1 Time,
Thank you kindly for your Easter happies
I hope the Easter bunny is extra good to you
🐰🐰🐰🐰🐰🐰🐰🍫🍫🍫🍫🍫
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
I can only imagine Sam’s reaction to my silliness. I would never be like that around him. I would remain silent as a monk.
I thought of another channel. Don’t want to name the channel just in case I am wrong but the dude’s real life name is Duane. I never trust anyone named Duane.
He has a channel about overcoming a narcissist. Creepy looking guy I am convinced is a Mid Ranger.
As example, his vids are all about what a narc his ex wife was and what you can do to overcome them, blah blah.
He gave an example where he said his wife was ‘more concerned with going to her hair appointment than taking care of the kids.’
Now, he did not give an example of what this ‘taking care’ meant. Taking to the hospital? Are they dying?
Or had she made this hair appt weeks in advance and he is just pissed because HE has to be the one to care for them in that time?
Sorry Duane. Not a good example. On this site we hear shit like the narc destroying someone’s beloved piano with an ax or multiple affairs, or theft or in my case, giving me an alias for 2+ yrs, etc. etc. etc.
I only watched him to look for the Mid Ranger qualities. I don’t like Duane. Never trust Duane.
I agree Bubbles. HG has a unique way of making all of the concepts and manipulations crystal clear and provides effective practical advice on how to stay away or stay immune. It is both informative and truly helpful. I am very grateful for this blog. I sometimes shudder to think what I’d still be thinking or going through if I didn’t learn from HG.
Dear WiserNow.
You’re quite right precious
We are very fortunate with all that Mr Tudor has to offer
What is exceptional, is his manner, respect, ethics and high standards
How could anyone else compete with that?
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
You’re funny Bubbles! 😁
Dear Narc noob,
Thank you lovely …you should see Mr Bubbles n myself at home …we’re a team act 😂
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
I love your sense of humour Bubbles. You always make me smile. All the best to you and Mr Bubbles 🙂
Very true my lovely Bubbles xx 😘
Dear WiserNow,
You’re so kind pumpkin
I passed on your best to Mr Bubbles… he was right chuffed and said he wishes you the same back 👴🏻( well almost a look alike, add more hair, change the colour of the eyes, different shaped face and oops, that looks nothing like him ) ..haha
I really appreciate your comment dear one, if I can make a person smile, your facial wrinkles will thank you later
😂
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Happy Easter, WiserNow!
Steak Knives!!! 🔪🤣🤣🤣
Dearest Bubbles née Sillyolperson
your comment reminded of HG’s response to your comment on Blind or Stupid.
Sillyolperson
JUNE 20, 2017 AT 01:49
Dear Mr Tudor,
My psych asked me “where do I see myself in 5 years time”, I just wanted to get past that day let alone 5 years, she had no idea and I never went back.
HG Tudor
JUNE 20, 2017 AT 11:53 AM
Thank you. I despise questions such as “where do you see yourself in 5 years time”. I often mutter, “dancing on your grave.’
HG definitely reigns supreme.
Luv K xoxox
https://narcsite.com/2017/06/19/blind-or-stupid-4/#comments
Dearest K,
Golly gosh, that’s a blast from the past K
Thanks for that ….see what happens as you get older … i just keep repeating yourself 😂
Mr Tudor remains firmly seated on his throne because he also processes a fabulous wit
Thank for that trip down memory lane K
You’re amazing
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dearest Bubbles,
My pleasure! When I read your comment, I immediately had deja vu and looked it up, to make sure I wasn’t losin’ it. Ha ha ha…it was a funny response and I remember laughing when I read it. Trips down memory lane are better than trips down the rabbit hole!
Thank you for your kind words.
Luv K xx
Dear K,
The older you get, the more deja vu moments …. except we’re actually losin ‘ it
I’m forever in the “hereafter”
Every time I walk into a room, I ask myself , now what am I in here after ? 🤔 😂
Speaking of rabbits and the fact that it’s Easter
“What do you call a rabbit infested with fleas”?
Bugs bunny 🐰
🤣
Sending you many hoppity hops for Easter lovely K 🐾🐾
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dear Bubbles,
Yeah, I walk into rooms and wonder why the hell I am there, too, and every once in a while I get deja vu, which is a weird feeling, not quite like being gaslighted but along the same lines.
Ha ha ha…I love the joke, thanks.
Happy Easter Sweet Bubbles!
Luv K xoxo
K and Bubbles: you are both so cute. Have a Happy Easter!
Bibi
Ha ha ha…you made my morning. Happy Easter to you too!
Lisa,
You say, “in years to come there will be a better understanding of NPD.”
I disagree. I don’t see how much better of an understanding we can get than what HG lays out here.
Lisk
Perhaps she meant because of HG’s work. If we continue to spread it, that is the hope.
Hi Narc Angel
I don’t mean a better understanding for us I mean in the world generally. The poll is about how much wrong information that is out there and even finding therapists well trained in this. I don’t believe there is a general understanding out there but hopefully will be better understood as more people learn about it.
Lisa and Lisk
Sorry, I guess I should have been clearer. Yes, I agree that there is not presently out in the world in general. I meant that if we spread what we have learned here and get it out into the world hopefully that will change. That the change can begin with us.
NarcAngel
Ahh I see what you mean, yes definitely we have to try. I do try to share things and recommend etc. It’s hard though because even when I’ve told a couple of close friends they didn’t get it and I think they thought I was the nutty one !!!
WhoCares thank you!
Fist bump to the children of the MatriNarc 👊🏼
We will prevail.
Rainbow in the Dark,
What a load of crap to tell a 12 year old!
“the rehab center offered an adjacent program for the family to go through. In that they gave you an illuminating understanding of addiction and the genetics around it. This was a huge thing for me to witness as a 12 year old.
In there they told you, you WERE a codependent.
That all children of alcoholics will either:
a. become an alcoholic
b. marry an addict.
c. both.”
Awesome comment by the way – and I think I see my mother in your description of yours. And then I went on to meet a mid-ranger too.
Best to you on your journey towards understanding and healing.
WhoCares…tried to leave a reply, for some reason it seems it did not go through…
SO.
I’ll try again…
1. Thank you!
2. Fist bump to the Children of the Matriarchs 😉
>>when my borderline npd mother was put in alcohol rehab:
the rehab center offered an adjacent program for the family to go through. In that they gave you an illuminating understanding of addiction and the genetics around it. This was a huge thing for me to witness as a 12 year old.
In there they told you, you WERE a codependent.
That all children of alcoholics will either:
a. become an alcoholic
b. marry an addict.
c. both.
I put my stake in the ground that I would not have an addict as a partner,
nor would I be one myself and moderated my life accordingly.
What no one ever was able to see, was that the alcoholism was simply a side effect of the NPD.
So for my mother’s entire life, everyone thought the answer was for her to stop drinking. Therapists would advise my father to give her an ultimatum…him or the alcohol. which he was never able to do.
I’ve often wished that that 12 yo me would have been informed about NPD. I would have been weaponized indeed.
I have no doubt that much NPD is often masked behind the veil of addiction, and “if only” they would stop…it would go away.
Keeping people entangled and…codependent.
It was not until my early 40s, that a wonderful therapist handed me the book “Borderline Mother,” and I was finally able to see something that explained my childhood and various adult tendencies. We would jokingly call my mother the most appropriate title…a “Demon from the Ancient World.” And chock it up to a whole lot of “mystery.”
It did not however, empower me to know how to NOT become romantically entwined with a Mid Range Narcissist.
Having a mother as one, and then loving one, romantically are two entirely different things.
My mother just seemed like a demon. There was no love from her, and no love for her.
>>the “relationship” people out there:
Who i follow, because I am, (or was, rather,) passionate about functional, evolutionary partnerships.
Working, and operating in the “transformational” space, I pay attention to cutting edge info on intimate partnerships…which in and of itself while ensnared, had me just thinking…”how can I do better/be better.” ha.
There are people who I very much respect, and find their work profound, when you have two functional people, being proactive in partnership.
BUT, if one of those people is engaged with a narcissist it just feeds the dysfunction junction that is happening.
I now look upon these conversations/forums and see, “Good God, these people are just ensnared”…and being told to be more communicative with “how the man thinks” and be more adoring/admiring/honoring/appreciative.
All great in an equally met partnership, but when not, it just drives the empath into a deeper more dangerous hole.
>>Friends and mentors would simply say:
“he sounds confused”
“he sounds game-y”
“he sounds like he has a lot of things going on with the divorce/sick parents/young kids…so just be patient and love him.”
This is very hard when you are mired in confusion and reality has been contorted.
My own journey on this is still in progress. But it has been mostly all alone.
Forcing me to dig deep into my own skillset that thankfully can understand how this needs to be addressed on the emotional/spiritual/physical/mental levels. Without addressing it all…I don’t think you can stop the pattern.
Extraordinarily grateful HG for what you do, which is to bring understanding to something that is confusing to the empathic mind and the underbelly of our society.
Personality disorder is seen as a murderer, or rageful person, or a schizophrenic mumbling on the street.
NPD moves across the entire strata of society, and what you do is reveal just how that is with your own on point, classification system.
Nothing clears the fog faster….because it is a fog…and little by little the mist clears.
Your work has been the thing that comes in like the Sun, burning it quickly away.
It’s hard to recognize that one was so fogged in. But at least it creates clarity. And with clarity the mind can finally understand it was existing in a radioactive hot zone, and the only thing walk away, decontaminate, cut your losses and move on.
Rainbow
What a great commentary on just how muddy this subject is and how woefully inadequate the resources have been to this point in dealing with it. I think in time we will refer to it as BHG (before HG and AHG (after HG) haha. Big credit to you for persevering in finding answers after that type of experience and while doing it alone for the most part. I’m glad you found your way here.
Kudos, definitely, to Rainbow!
I wonder if EACH of us had been “doing it alone for the most part” until we got here.
As this poll clearly demonstrates, there is almost no one else except HG (and us fellow commenters) to work with on this.
NarcAngel. Thank you for your generous presence and thoughts. Big love. xx
Rainbow in the Dark,
Great comment! It resonated with me very much and I can understand. There’s a lot of confusing and well-meaning but totally counterproductive information ‘out there’, especially about relationships. A lot of relationship counselling encourages ‘relationships’ to continue and find a way of reaching ‘success’, which results in the empathic person striving to ‘do better/be better’ as you say, which just feeds into the unhealthy dynamic. I think these kinds of beliefs are widely accepted in society too, as ‘the right thing to do’, and is part of the reason ‘no contact’ and ‘get out stay out’ are difficult to accept and they take time to put into practice.
All the best with your progress on your own ‘journey’. It’s not easy when your mind, childhood and whole life has been affected in an unhealthy way by your family. I understand you when you say you’ve done it mostly alone. It’s an uphill climb. I wish you all the best and hope you continue to have the energy to keep going. And yes, we will prevail! 💪😊
An excellent post Rainbow.
Too right nothing clears the fog faster than HGs work.
Thank you for such an honest and well written post!
If you think not that long ago the complete lack of knowledge of things like autism or bi polar existed and is still being explored. Even in the 50’s and 60’s people with what is now called bi polar were given electric shock treatment. In years to come there will be a better understanding of NPD but that’s not the same as there ever being a cure , because in my opinion that will not happen.
Indeed.
I went to a therapist because I was so broken and crazed by the manipulations. I had looked online and thought perhaps my Narc had NPD or Aspergers. The therapist told me over many sessions to leave him and move on. Sound advice, but being an empath I wanted closure, to know what I had done to make him not want me anymore, to know WHY I had been treated the way I had. Therapists mean well, but they do not know how to identify and deal with narcissism. One day searching the internet, I found this site. I started reading the first articles and found my answers. Still not sure he was a Narc and not just a nice guy I had pushed over the edge, I had my first consult with HG. He identified my narc right away, identified what I was to the Narc and how the rest of my involvement with him was going to go down. Further consultations cemented my feeling that this site and HG’s insight were the only ways I was ever going to heal and go no contact. Bravo HG for all the assistance and insight you provide! .
Thank you GE, good to see you again.
E.B.,
That was illuminating and sobering at the same time. It just goes to show that memorization and cognitive empathy will you far.
“I think this could explain why so many professionals do not seem to be knowledgeable about narcissism. They memorize texts to pass exams without understanding them. After all, memorization equals intelligence in our culture.”
I think the bigger danger is that the professionals at a high level of education BELIEVE they possess real empathy. And we, looking for help, want “professional” help – and we put so much stock in official degrees and positions of authority that those verifiable badges of “knowledge” coupled with ‘real enough’ empathy is a mix a for just another form of entanglement – and an opportunity to be re-abused.
Emotional intelligence does not, necessarily, come from a degree and all the hoops simply jumped through to arrive there.
I can still see vague and misleading information about the concept of fuel.
A therapist said that fuel = IP. If a N has an IP, he has fuel. If not, he does not have any fuel in his life. Others say it is just attention so they probably think that saying Hello or Good morning in a neutral tone of voice and body language is fuel. Another survivor said she did not give her narcissist ex any fuel: when he rang the doorbell, she told him to go away and slammed the door.
EB
Great example with the no fuel and door slamming.
NA,
Haha, yes. This reminds me of “I am no contact with my narc family. I only send them cards on birthdays and for Christmas” 😀
-Someone with a PhD in psychology with special training in psychotherapy. Although she was not young and had been working in the field for several years, she seemed to be unaware of narcissism and family roles in dysfunctional families. This was back in the ’80s.
-A social worker who claims to be a specialist consultant for psychotraumatology, non-medical practitioner for psychotherapy and systemic consultant (?). She works in a hospital and also has a private office. She was recommended to me to help me with other matters. At the beginning she was good at faking empathy and pretending to be in a similar situation I was in but when I asked for details, she did not know much about it and I saw her fury when I declined her offer. What she had told me about her private life was a lie and her empathy was gone. She has traits of a MRN.
-MRN sibling has a post graduate degree in psychopedagogy. She asked me if I could help her so I wrote assignments for her, including those about narcissism and dysfunctional families. She said she had memorized all the material. Passing exams to get a degree without learning and understanding was all that mattered to her.
I think this could explain why so many professionals do not seem to be knowledgeable about narcissism. They memorize texts to pass exams without understanding them. After all, memorization equals intelligence in our culture. I am not saying this is the only reason why there is a lot of poor information about narcissism but at least one of them.
EB
This is not a judgement but merely a question. Why did you help her by writing assignments for her? Was it out of duty to a sibling? Before you knew what she was? A feeling of responsibility as an Empath to help others when you are able to? Or perhaps something else completely? If you don’t care to expand I understand.
NarcAngel,
Yes, out of duty and before I knew what she was. When she was born, my narc parents told me I was going to be her godmother and it would be my responsibility to take care of her. I was not even twelve. Most of my behaviours are not because I was born like this. They come from my highly dysfunctional upbringing and role assigned – scapegoat who could do anything right. They made me feel responsible for everyone and everything including other people’s illnesses.
EB
Ah. I thought expectation and responsibility might be behind it but I was curious if it might be something else. You bore the brunt and I’m sorry that was the case. Thank you for your answer.
Sorry if my question comes through more than once. It got suspended when I hit send.
Most of the information I located Was pretty good and validating in the beginning. However the things that bother me the most are people that describe behaviors of the narcissist with terms like “always” and “they NEVER” or “they subject u to EXTREME..whatever “ because it isn’t “always” this way or that way. Otherwise no one would ever be around them for more than five minutes.
I think the DSM is the most lame description of narcissistic personality disorder. It doesn’t even begin to capture all the manipulation and defensive behaviors- And seems to lean towards the grandiose narcissist more than the covert or lesser. Thanks to HG we’ve all learned a lot About how to spot them.
I have given up explaining to anyone – if I feel that they are mature or bruised enough to understand I direct them here. But I no longer get into the Narc speech – because if you have not lived it – you can’t understand it .
Omj,
‘because is you have not lived it – you can’t understand it.’
So very true!
x
HG I know you do this for your own reasons. Please don’t ever think your time and energy on the blog ever goes unappreciated! There are many who come to your blog who can not afford consults or seeking the advice of so called professionals! You give those people a place to learn and find the knowledge they need to heal. You have created a sanctuary for so many who thought they were alone in all of this, you have given them a voice and peace of mind! For the few who come on here and judge you without even reading anything you have written, is nothing compared to the thousands you have helped move forward and heal! Thank you HG! 🌺
You are welcome FM1T
Would you like a list? I’ve got one.
By all means, that is the idea.
Hello, H.G.Tudor.
In my case only the best of the best.
My information should be the best and clearest possible.
I started with H.G. Tudor who enlightened my life. But I searched and delved a little deeper into the psychology of narcissistic disorder by the hand of Sam Vaknin.
I could say that both have left an imprint on me.
Well, theory without practice and practice without theory makes a matter in my case incomplete.
Two great Narcissists, one mental and the other Somatic.
I believe that one does not need more, but to know and to drink from the source. Sam Vaknin deepens the narcissistic psyche in a masterly scientific way. While H.G. Tudor experiments and practices so vividly what the narcissist and the empathic feel, which really frightens…
Both compete in knowledge and form a complete tandem in narcissistic theory and practice.
Womans Magazines!!
Today I read an article in ‘Psychology Magazine’ (Dutch). A woman asked: “if I love a narcissist unconitionally, will he change?”. The answer was (from a psychiatrist…):
Be careful about yourself (don’t give too much). He cannot totally change, but you can try to make him aware of his ‘little self’ and his ‘big self’. When he is talking from his “big self”, you could ask “can you please transfer me to your little self, please?”
Haha! Nex would have answered: “Don’t you like me big, babes?” 🍆
Yeah. That would have been fun.
An excellent example of an utter lack of understanding.
Hahahaa very good 😂
Friends – who know nothing about narcissism – give horrible advice.
Psychologist – who should know better: “Well he hasn’t been diagnosed with NPD, now has he?… We should really try to look into how we can improve your communication with him… Name some of the good things, he does for you and your daughter!?”
Sooo… because he hasn’t been to see a professional (we all know how much narcissists love to do that) and been properly labelled, we should just ignore all the emotional and physical scars my daughter and I have from being dragged through his eternal narcissistic shitshow for the last 12/16 years?
I’ll go find help somewhere else then…
I chose 3 but quite a few applied. Ive gotten some great info out there but none was ever complete or from the deeply personal level that it is here from a narcissist themselves. The support forums you have to take with a grain of salt bc many are victims who have issues just as much as the narcissist does. When i help others im careful to let them know im still a work in progress and no expert. I share HGs work and let them go on to research and find their own truth and info.
Im astounded by how many people are in the dark wondering around confused not knowing what a narcissist is much less the tactics and why they do what they do.
I get a bit emotional when i look back at all ive learned here bc it really goes beyond words can say. Its freedom plain and simple. Its like a fog is lifted and you see everything for what it is. It still hurts but at least you know what youre dealing with. So i will share HG’s work as much as i can while keeping my own privacy and put it out there. My hope and prayer is one day HG you can find your own answers and heal whats happened in the past 💓
My heart goes out to the people still stuck in confusion. I met one such person and have forged a friendship. This person is still in that fog and altho has moved on from the relationship the issues remain unresolved.
I appreciate your stated sentiments, CM.
Lovely comment. I have a bewildered friend who asked me if HG would be mean to her if she talked to him. The person being mean is her asshat boyfriend.
Thank you for this heartfelt comment chimum.
Your understanding of cluster b disorders and your compassion shine through it.
I think that the most dangerous information out there, is the advice that portrays Narcissist as all the same. While they all play from the same handbook, narcissism is a spectrum, and the energy and depths of extremes depends on each narcissist. Example, I notice that there are some YouTube videos and blogs that suggest counter manipulation. While this may work on some narcissist, it’s dangerous to play these games with the more predatory types.
Anm. So true, and they are also very afraid to discuss the schools of narcissism such as: the lower narcs and mid rangers and the NIPSSs and the DLSs and all that, including the word: fuel, because the search engines will also lead people straight to HG Tudor, and they know it: Too much competition for them, to stomach. Sadly, I saw some of them dance around questions of why one narc behaved one way and why another narc behaved another way, but these advisors just basically danced their way off the stage/the topic, instead of going into the various schools. Sigh….
So, the advisors basically read HG Tudor`s works to learn, while they do as much as possible to not mention him, but HG`s works are becoming so ubiquitous within the world of learning about Narcissism, that what all these advisors are really doing is stalling the needy. However, we find our way here one way or the other. The only time I see some of them mention HG Tudor, is when they are asked if any Narcissists (since mostly all of these advisors brand themselves as empaths) teach on the topic. They are then reluctantly forced to mention HG Tudor, because they know definitively that once a client or potential client bumps into HG Tudor`s work on their own, and then remember that a certain advisor had said that he or she doesn’t know of any such individual, that feigned ignorance would be absolute suicide for that advisor, in the minds of the people that still deal with them.
True.
I have point blank asked my therapist about NPD vs. Co-dependency (I have a hard time telling mid rangers and Co-D’s apart within my family), and she was of no help at all.
With all of HG’s help, you other participants, and my own self-reflection, I can more clearly see all the narc/empath dynamics within my family. I understand that those dynamics were “normal” to me as a child and teen, and that is why I have attracted so many narcs to me, as friends, as well as intimate partners. The dynamic is totally normalized in my head.
In fact, my husband and I (both empaths) initially used our learned/mimicked narc traits against each other, making our dynamic initially seem like the typical narc/empath dalliance. I was comfortable with that. It was only when we both strived for self improvement and began to change that our dynamic became “boring” to me and I ended up in affair with MMRN.
Knowing all of this allows me some self-forgiveness, and understanding. And it demystifies why MMRN was able to “get” me. It really has nothing to do with him, he could be any old narc, its just the dynamic that my inner child seeks for comfort and familiarity. That knowledge is freeing, and the ET is lessened.
Thank you for being here for us HG.
You are welcome.
Hi Supernova De, your comment is very interesting to me as I am still struggling with the similarities between co dependents and narcs. You may mean something different to my confusion. So apologies if I’ve misunderstood. These Mid Range Narcs can look like codependents and vice versa, to me anyway maybe not to others . It’s hard for me to tell them apart particularly with family members.
When you say that you and your husband changed your behaviours , do you mean you both stopped using narc traits or narc behaviours ? So both of you behaved empathic to each other at all times ? And this then became boring to you ?
Lisa,
I have a hard time telling narcs and Co-D’s apart in my family, especially the females. I, frankly, have a hard time knowing if I am Co-D or not haha. I think I am a standard empath (HG says so) that has Co-D type communication patterns having grown up in narc/co-D world. I’m still working on knowing myself better in this regard.
My husband’s mother is a narc, his father co-D, and his sister is probably mid range (though she is one I am confused about, she could be Co-D people pleaser). My mother is Co-D, I think my father was probably a narc, though I am still not sure, I will have to consult HG to get a better idea at some point.
I learned Co-D type communication and behavior patterns from my mother, and also my narc traits go up around her. My husband learned narc confrontation style from his mom.
Due to those factors, I think when I met my husband, I felt “safe” in our interactions. We were both exhibiting disordered patterns, but only by mimicking our families.
Once we had been together 15 years, started having children, etc, we both acknowledged that the way we dealt with conflict was not healthy. We both endeavored to better ourselves individually and also within our relationship. It worked marvelously well. We are both very intelligent and have great self-awareness. We can both readily see and acknowledge our behavior patterns and have the ability to stop them.
We never behaved without empathy toward each other, that would not be possible. But the maladaptive patterns lessened…therefor the drama and conflict lessened.
Yes! this was a good thing but when you are raised on that drama you subconsciously think you are bored when its not there anymore. Enter MMRN, and I was toast. Haha.
Supernova De
Thank you for explaining that
Supernova DE,
Many therapist, believe codependents are narcissist. That’s one of the reasons I dont follow Sam Vaknin. I believe he gets the 2 mixed up
ANM,
I have tried to understand Sam Vaknin’s “inverted narcissist” thing and I gave up. It doesn’t make sense to me. His stuff is interesting from an academic standpoint, but he’s got nothing on HG for practical everyday applications and examples.
I actually think it can be very hard to tell a Co-D from a Narc in certain situations. Empathy is the key, but if the narc has good cognitive empathy then it can be very difficult as a secondary and certainly a tertiary source to find the truth.
I understand S.V concept of the inverted narcissist, having dealt with people that no matter how much support, advice, empathy they receive they do not want to protect themselves from the narcissist, even after having several professionals tell them their life in danger. They are willing to loose their children, their lives for the narcissist. Nothing seems to ground them.
I have also dealt with co-codependents that eventually have a breakthrough, they are slower to “get it” than people who are not codependents but eventually with the right support, drips of logic sink in.
Hi Witch
I’ve also tried to understand Sam Vaknins inverted narcissist . So is this some type of mid range narc or is this a type of empath ?
Thanks
Do not waste your time trying to understand it, it is misleading and unhelpful.
I agree with HG on this. My best interpretation is that what SV calls an “inverted narc” is probably a very severe codependency. Beyond that, its muddy waters and confusing, and kind of useless terminology anyway.
In fact, co-dependency in general is difficult to get good information on. Most literature out there relates only to partners of addicts. And it’s not a real DSM diagnosis, so between practitioners there is latitude as to the meaning and true implications of this on a person’s life and relationship patterns.
It seems to be the most extreme type of co-dependent, at least that is my understanding. And they are rare.
I would like to know H’s view on why it’s misleading?
My guess is because co-dependents are not narcissists so therefore can not be “inverted narcissists.”
From my experiences though, having worked with extreme co-dependents, they are different from your average co-dependents. They are willing to loose it all.
Co-dependents, though they still feel emotionally attached to the narcissist, maybe even long after separation; They aren’t willing to put their kids in care for them or die for them. There self-esteem is not entirely dependent on “saving” the narcissist.
Claire!
You’re killin’ me.
“It’s ok. I can deal with it. Just as long as he does not pause too long.”
Omg. I needed that laugh.
In the newspaper, every single day from Ask Amy and Love Letters from Meredith.
And in every book that I have read that wasn’t written by HG Tudor.
And Quora.
Yes there’s a lot of crap on Quora.
HG Tudor
On Quora, I read that NPD is a morality disorder and has nothing to do with GPD or environment. Ha ha ha…if that’s the case, then we all may be disordered if morality is the criterion for diagnosis.
Psychiatrists know nothing, at least nothing of practical interest. Most of them are narcissists themselves. They are familiar only with lesser narcs (the violent type) or with lower IQ obvious psychopaths.
Second come friends- they mean well but they have no clue whatsoever. Talking to them is useless. Especially women-friends. Men are better, they spot what’s wrong with another guy even if they have no info about the actual situation. Men get quickly what’s wrong but bore easily talking about it. Their solutions are effective and straightforward: leave him or bear with it and stop complaining. True, but not what’s needed. But women, again, women are terrible. Plus they usually gossip around about your situation and have their own petty meannes, no matter how close friends you might think they are.
Some therapists are good, again, men therapists. Women therapists, at least in my experience, are frequently clueless and biased against their clients, especially if they are not married. If the woman therapist is ugly and has never been married, prepare to say goodbye to your money and get nothing in return. Same if she is religious. Most of them are inclined to find flaws in their clients. If they are divorced, the therapy might stand a chance provided they are well informed about PDs and narcissism, at least they’ll listen to you and offer competent advice about your person, never about the narcissist.
Still, the worst place one can go for counselling is at a church or a pastor or anything like this.
Again, my advice for all women with a narcissist man problem is to look for a male therapist 35-55 years old who is well read and experienced on PDs. When I decided to enter therapy I decided I do not need another woman’s perspective on men and narcissistic relationships, but that of a man. I am a woman, I have had problems with narcs (all of them men) and I know how this feels. Another woman’s perspective was not what I needed. I wanted to understand how a man sees it. HG and Vaknin helped a lot the whole process.
Very interesting, thank you for sharing.
I like this comment.
I get the whole religious counseling statement. Most religious counselors will focus on keeping couples together, even if one is abusive.
As far as choosing a Therapist based on gender, I try to not be that close minded with who can help people. However, there was a time, when a narcissist I was dating convinced me to do couples counseling. He was either an Upper Midranger or Greater. The therapist was a female. He charmed her, and she targeted me as the main problem in the relationship. She never even questioned him. I knew I was out, when he had her convinced that group sex would help our relationship. Wth?
So true about males and male therapists. You are so right about ugly therapists and patients being attractive, etc.
I deliberately sought out a male therapist because I no longer could trust female therapists, especially because they never tried to help me out of a bad relationship or they victim-blamed me and sided with Narc Ex.
My male therapist is the first person who told me, “ He is not the right man for you,” or, “He sounds like a narcissist.” Yes!
It’s because of this male therapist that I started searching “narcissist” on the internet and found HG and all of you invaluable commenters.
Hello Q,
Thank you for your advice, I really appreciate it. I had similar experiences with women. It is not surprising that there isn’t any female narcissist wanting to share about her manipulations, what they do to other women and why, even though they could do it anonymously. I felt upset when I saw hurtful comments about SM written by women on HG’s IG. They want to make her look bad. This is not jealousy but pathological envy – from ‘Empaths’.
I also agree about most psychiatrists being narcissists themselves and not knowing about personality disorders. Since they are medical doctors (those that I know neurologists), they prescribe antidepressants and such when patients ask for help.
Great poll. I went to a psychiatrist. (Known him for years) and he is a forensic psychiatrist but practices in the general sense—but that is his “other” specialization. He knew the marriage was causing the headache, ok. Easy concept. He failed to question WHY it was so miserable or to basically track the animal in the woods.. It’s not normal for a high functioning person to decompensate like I did. My job was high pressure yes, but to crumble like a saltine cracker?? He sent me to a therapist—she had me order a book. I received it. It was basically a discussion on getting a daily shower, taking walks, keeping a journal, etc. I was like WTF. Crumbled for a few more years.. He (spouse) left and I found the right information and I’ve done nothing but improve by leaps and bounds. It had nothing to do with a shower, a walk, or a journal. Oh—and a therapist tried to tap on my knees with her hands.. Not sure what that was. It amuses me a little at times now. If only HG could just throw us all in the shower and throw a bar of soap our way—what a means of curing this! Also, there is better vs. less better info out there. Depends on what someone needs. Some are into “healing” and it’s not my thing. If HG said to me, “You fundamentally need to do EMDR and take walks along the river”—I would.
and that is ok. I’m not into EMDR type of stuff but I know it helps a lot of people. I can’t sit still to do yoga and meditate but I respect all of it.
Are we able to say who else has decent work on here? There is one other person with reasonable material in the states..
Sorry to hear that the abuse you suffered made you crumble and that you’re in a much better place now (from what I gather). Yes, psychiatrists, GPs and councillors are no help at all really, which is sad in these modern times.
Ive crumbled too, several times (I call them mini-breakdowns) and I was on anti-anxiety/depression pills. Today, I have taken a major dip in my mood and my anxiety is through the roof. I’ve done nothing but cry and feel as though I’m going to pass out. I stopped my medication because I hate having to rely on them – maybe that’s the wrong choice right now and I should start them up again (they do take 2-3 weeks to ‘kick in’ though. I just want it all to stop. Everything.
I shared a story yesterday about a triangulation my NEX used with me and I now wish I hadn’t. I don’t like sharing my pain or having the paranoia of people judging me for it.
Sorry to hear Sarah. I’m not a big fan of meds because if I take an anxiety preparation it knocks my energy out for hours. I also have a propensity for manipulating my thinking to believe I need them more often than I do.. (addictive tendencies)
Anti-depressant medication is documented to take 2-3 weeks yes, although the effect is so subjective I find the science maddening. My best suggestion is perhaps harsh but well intended. Get up. Get a shower. Take a long brisk walk. Exercise can beat the pants off pills most days. I’ve not frequently seen terrific results from anti-depressants (at times yes—infrequent and I’m qualified to make this assertion both personally and otherwise) but I’ve seen substantial results from fresh air, endorphins, and increasing your heart rate. I presume you are young enough and healthy enough—your picture appears to be a healthy younger woman! Counselors and psychiatrists.. I can’t entirely negate their use but my experience has been dismal and frankly I have worked with many
of these folks, some personal friends, etc.. I’m underwhelmed with their expertise most of the time. Oh yes, they have a niche here and there but by and large I’m not captivated. HG is far more interesting and useful. He could knock the pants off any psychiatrist I know. And I’ve worked with top university psychiatry. I mean that.
Thank you for your advice and information, Claire. Yes, a shower and some exercise is usually what is suggested – and I do agree it’s much better to persevere with that rather than pills.
“Your picture appears to be a healthy younger woman” Young(er) than who? Yes, I’m healthy enough, it’s just that my nervous system has taken a proper beating. I have known of 16/17 year olds that have been on anti-depressants and anxiety pills, so it’s not specifically an age thing.
Young meaning less inclined not to be able to exercise etc. Only reason I mentioned it—if you looked like you were infirm it would have been a “less good” suggestion. I understand the nervous system beating and I have to back track and elaborate on my comment. The book the counselor recommended advised me to get regular showers when I was depressed due to the home environment! Certainly that wasn’t the problem at hand, but it is glorious to work out squeaky clean and walk in the sun! I did respond well to an SSRI after giving birth and having strange thoughts. Within a week and a half I was completely ok after an extended period of extreme anxiety I was going to drop the baby etc. (meds have value at times)
I do weightlifting in lieu of antidepressants. Not saying it’s a cure all or appeals to everyone but for me it is meds and works better than meds I’ve tried. I have to lift heavy, really improves my mood and is a fun hobby. I have to do it though or I suffer and will need a script.
Never underestimate the power of exercise.
Ernestine Shepherd is an idol! Keep at it! (Look her up!)
Claire
I know of her. Watched a piece about her that was inspiring. Except for the part about downing raw eggs lol.
Yuck. I guess whatever works.
I love swimming and bike rides.
It does lift your mood, but the MR has made me plateau out. Well, MY own mind has I suppose – dealing with all this.
Good for you, Nunya Biz.
For exercise I imagine you as a runner, HG.
I imagine he takes long walks and has a rowing/treadmill machine he used in the privacy of his own home (alone).
Oh yes, Claire, I saw her before! I will look up a bit more about her philosophies, etc… She looks amazing. Inspiring.
I watch videos regularly and enjoy challenging myself. I’m in the middle of some goals and I am able to do pullups with added weight on a belt and my deadlift is pretty strong. It really makes me feel good about myself and the endorphins are life saving, I’ll probably still do it at 82, we’ll see!
One thing the N got me into was exercise. I was kinda a couch potato…ok I was a full fledged couch potato….I now have had personal trainer for over a year and started running. This was all after I lost 40 pounds. Trying to find some positive out there……
Weight loss is delicious.
She is awesome. Just some middle aged overweight woman that got into working out.. Not overly grandiose about it. Pills can kiss my ass. The psychiatrist I went to was $300/hour and as helpful as tits on a boar hog. My personal trainer is a fraction of that and is honestly a super guy—totally not a narc—not that it would matter in that element of my life. My upper back hurts today from his ass kicking—not my freaking brain from a complete asshole pissing all over my house.
Huh, raw eggs doesn’t seem a good idea, I thought less digestible.
I could see HG doing that too, GTGM.
HG does not do raw eggs! I wonder if he would for a lady companion though?!
Doesn’t he put egg whites in his amaretto sour?
I don’t know. He should answer this. Why would it make a drink better?
He had a picture on Instagram of one that he had made and it looked delicious!
I don’t see it.. The analogy was good though!
Claire I’ll have a look and see if I can find it for you. Found it! March 14th. 🙃
Somehow I knew you would be an adept detective!
Shhhh! Don’t tell anyone!! 🤣🙃😘
A secret narcissistic sorta skill—I see—maybe we are both mid rangers and HG is too kind to tell us!! (Because we wouldn’t understand anyway!)
Haaaa! Claire do you not know? Empaths make better detectives!! 🤣🤣🙃
No they don’t.
I thought you said or wrote at one time that empaths did make better detectives HG?
Is anyone else not getting their comments from word press? If you comment to me and I don’t answer, the reason is because I am not getting them!😡
Ugh I’m getting some but not all. I can notify support. I thought throwing them a few bucks would at least enable the possibility of talking to a human. I just got too busy to do it when I wanted to do it. I only saw this because I looked on the thread.
I agree HG.
Empaths let their emotional thinking con them into believing they are better detectives.
I was having a conversation earlier this morning with another person falsely labeled as one of your kind.
Narc Slayers my a@@ they wouldn’t know a true narcissist if they bit them in the a@@, identifying someone with high narcissistic traits is easy vs identfying a bonofied narcissist.
Anger and hatred for your kind can blind one to only seeing traits as narcissist and not seeing the empathetic traits.
Not better than a greater though from what I hear!
Apparently not! Hahaha! 🙃
Good job on the 40 kim e. And the running! I never run. If something was chasing me I’d be in trouble.
Nunya—that is funny.
I changed up my workouts about 16 weeks ago. I stopped running and biking b/c it was not helping me anymore. I was not toning and I felt plateaued. So I bit the bullet and bought hand weights and a kettlebell, increasing weight slowly over time. Been doing HIIT, Kickboxing, strength training and squats, squats, squats.
Holy moly what a difference. My ass is better than it was 10 yrs ago from just running. Boobs are perkier from working my pecs.
The running worked in my 20s and 30s but I need more toning and sculpting now to burn away fat. Workouts are shorter in duration but much more drastic results. Not looking to drop a size but just shape and sculpt.
Allows me to eat more where I feel myself burning through it faster. Increased resting metabolism and I am physically stronger.
There is definitely something to be said about not only increasing your emotional strength but physical as well. The weights have also helped my posture.
And all these programs I do in my living room, courtesy of YT vids. No gym.
Agree, plyo boxes are excellent also!
They do say weights for women is the best – and you really don’t have to do much else, other than walking.
I’m not a huge work out fan and could never date a ‘gym goer’ with muscles. When a man eats a cream cake, I like it when he sits back and enjoys it – not worry about the calorie intake and how much running he needs to do to ‘work it off’. I like a man who loves his food and has a belly to show for it. Somatics have never been a turn on for me.
Bibi
Great point to change it up. Exercise can help with the stress and fill the time that might otherwise be spent thinking of or about them, and is ofter overlooked in favour of medication (although there is no shame if that is required). Kettlebells are great and can kick your ass. The first time I did a video I thought: this is a piece of piss and did even more. Two days later I could not lower to pee without holding onto the walls enclosing the toilet so I learned to take it slow. Congratulations on your new ass. It is a bit disconcerting when it starts trying to escape the confines of your underwear lol. They say you lose 10% of your muscle per decade after 40 so weight training is the way to go.
Go Bibi!
Claire I should have worded that way better. Haha, I meant GTGM comment about long walks and a rowing machine. I will remember to fully cook his breakfast!
; )
Claire I had a narc trainer once! He was so rude. I had a nice trainer after that. The problem with the narc trainer was that I didn’t know what a narc was so I couldn’t really handle it. He had problems with everyone. He was constantly feeling challenged by people. Now that’s totally obvious to me but at the time (many years ago) I just didn’t understand what his problem was and we got into a disagreement over absolutely nothing and he quit and then I cried.
Haha, that’s embarrassing. It’s true though.
SJ, funny I actually often like a belly on a man also. I think they can still be somatic though! But yeah I sometimes just love the idea of a guy who watches drinks beer/eats, belly doesn’t bother me. I enjoy men who are really fit, but it’s not a requirement for me to be attracted. I don’t know, I agree, something hot about a guy who eats sometimes. I think it’s some caretaking desire.
For cardio I usually do the stepmill. It’s nice and slow and strenuous enough even though it’s still walking, which is more my speed : ) I mostly do it when I feel mad I ate a lot, but I like to listen to music.
The weightlifting is good for everyone but for women I think it’s wonderful for bone health. I find it psychologically empowering and also I like the activity of marking down what I do each week and doing better the next week in a notebook calendar I bought for that. It just seems to work enough to keep me occupied with it long term. I like the YT vids like Bibi said, I try to watch a couple a week at least.
I agree Nunya Biz – a belly is cool. Bodies that are of average build, but with not a lot of muscle definition – yet still strong enough to open a jar of chocolate body paint 😉
Chris O’Dowd would certainly do for me. The dark hair and beard. The eyes that disappear when he smiles. His thick bottom lip. It’s the Irish accent too. A bit too tall for me…maybe squash him down so he gains a bit more weight and then yes please.
William Baldwin in Sliver.
Chris Pratt before he got muscley.
Christian Slater in Robin Hood.
Colin Firth in Pride and Prejudice.
Glenn Tilbrook from Squeeze.
Gary Lightbody from Snow Patrol.
HG Tudor from the Narcsite.
Ha, SJ, I get your type. I have also found that type attractive. I tease my husband that he looks like Chris O’Dowd (but lighter hair and no Irish accent). I love CO because he’s so funny and pleasant to watch on screen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3Fk5xFLqOE
I also like Chris Pratt. And I like Paul Rudd.
Married to a lookalike of Chris O’Dowd? Very nice haha.
Nunya Biz
Hahaha autistic spectrum. Love the IT Crowd! A GREAT O’Dowd film of mine is The Incredible Jessica James. Crap cheesy film, but much swooning. Ovary explosion.
Nunya-
Yesterday I bought my 2nd heaviest kettlebell. 12kg (26.5 pounds.) That is heavy. I am using it for squats and swings. My lighter one is 8kg (17.5 pounds). What surprises me is how my lighter one feels so much lighter than it did weeks ago when I bought it.
My only paranoia is not dropping it on my toe or swinging it into my knee, LOL. (I am careful.)
My cat likes to kissy face when I work out and so I have had to lock him in a room sometimes when I do the kettlebell or just move away from him. But I do it in front of a large mirror so I am very aware of everything around me. I hold on for dear life.
I do cheat on weekends by enjoying wine but the weights have made so much a difference. Women tend to underestimate their physical strength and they also are paranoid about ‘getting too bulky’ which will NOT happen unless one is deadlifting 100s of pounds and likely taking steroids.
The bulky worry is what kept me away from weights for so long. Bollocks! I am the same mass but just firmer.
The YT vids resulted in some recommendations with somatic narcissists who have channels. You can tell b/c they are more about showing off and flexing than really helping their viewers get fit. They also have an attitude and they’re the kind who will criticize you at the gym and offer advice even if you don’t ask.
If anyone is interested, I highly recommend YT for workouts. There are some great channels and one does not need to go to the gym to get a great workout and see results.
A large mirror? Is there such thing as an Empathic Somatic? Or maybe more ‘normal’ somatic, having more narcissistic tendencies.
I ponder, because I can’t see a genuine high-grade Empath going to such lengths. I could, however, be talking bollocks (the rude equivalent to talking pages).
Hey Narc Angel:
Yes you are right about the fat addition and muscle loss over 40 for women. I have found that I have no other choice but to isolate and target those trouble areas.
Running and biking is great and it worked well for me for 2 decades but it’s just not enough–I don’t live anywhere hilly enough to target the under the ass areas via running.
Squats and lunges are really the bread and butter of shaping up. Working your core as much as you can and chest presses for perkier boobs. LOL
A comment on hot dudes. Colin Firth is adorable in Bridget Jones. (1st one.) My 72 yr old mom once said, ‘I just want to eat him up.’ I find myself watching clips just to stare at him.
And yes, HG has nice legs. He is up there with Tom Selleck’s legs. Ever watch Magnum PI and those short 1980s shorts he wears? Tee hee.
Bibi
Colin Firth is adorable and sexy in anything – but the attire and olde English speak in Pride and Prejudice makes my ***** tingle.
Mr Tudor’s legs are very nice indeed, but I hope the resemblance to Magnum P.I stops there – although I’m a sucker for eccentric clothing.
I’ll be up front about physical appearance. I believe a life of squats on repetition just to get a fab backside is one which is wasted. Each to their own.
I want to skid into my grave, drunk, holding a chocolate ecclair – shouting ‘have at me, Mr Reaper’.
SJ and all, It’s not just our mental health that takes a beating. Cortisol (stress hormone) levels become elevated for long periods of time because of the constant fight or flight response, and that can damage physical health. I tend not to eat when I am stressed, and weight has never been an issue for me anyway, but I’ve tried many ways to lower cortisol levels, from meds to learning to breathe properly. You might not be at the same point but priorities for me now are weight training (which anyone can do – even RBG weight trains!), lots of walking and sleep, vitamins and supplements, and always looking to have fun/laugh. I also find gardening very calming. To anyone in the US, I highly recommend kratom. (Illegal in the UK but legal in the US.) You can make it as a tea. Some people like CBD oil or mate too.
Yeah, Bibi, I get great feelings from lifting heavy. And I am trying to get as “bulky” as possible because I know there is a genetically predetermined limit on how much muscle I can put on, so there’s no sense worrying about it, I’d be amazed (and proud) if I can even manage to hit that limit, but even then it’s not “big”. I have enjoyed looking at some before and afters where the persons weight is exactly the same or 10 lbs heavier after building muscle and they are substantially smaller. Most people can’t wrap their mind around the fact that an identical weight of muscle is smaller than the fat so the body shape changes.
Girl/SJ- I am interested in your question and have thought about it, so here are my thoughts if you are interested in them…
here are some of what I came up with on this topic:
I have pondered before the question can there be a somatic traited empath. My opinion is that there are different N traits and I think an empath can be body focused. I am a massage therapist. I CAN also be very sex focused and I am a “huggy” person. I think these are just some of my qualities that are physically oriented. What about a very empathic male boxer? What about a person who enjoys marathons? Granted my gym focus tends to be geared toward appearance, but I balance it with not being perfectionist about it, it is fun for me to track my percentage and my goals, but I do work hard every week. Increased muscle mass improves testosterone levels in both women and men, which is an undeniable health benefit, and as I said before it decreases osteoporosis. So my opinion is that there are so many positives to it I’d have a hard time saying that someone can’t be empathic while pursuing a clearly healthy activity, even if appearance considerations are involved. It’s ok to want health to show outwardly? Even comparisons/competitions can be healthy as long as we have a “sportsmanship” attitude toward those things. I am not a competition focused person other than competing with myself, so I never sign up of anything official, it’s not my style.
I think a narcissist who is pursuing the same things would have a few other things going on.
– win at all cost even if it harms others
– shaming others who do differently
– rigid control without balance
– cheating/short cuts
– objectifying others and black and white thinking
You can probably think of examples who fit these points:
Lance Armstrong, that playboy bunny who photgraphed an older woman in the locker room (Dani Mathers), and I have met physical trainers who criticize others even out loud, etc…
I knew a man who was a cage fighter, body builder and also was very supportive and present for people who were suicidal, he did volunteer stuff. He got into the business of physical fitness and was also aiming to become somewhat famous. A very genuinely caring person. He had narcissistic qualities, I called him a super empath. He wasn’t a pushover. But I met a female narc somatic who did body competitions and she clearly had no empathy and thought she was hot shit. I avoid her whenever I see her, I hate the conversation that comes about where I say something self-deprecating to be funny or honest and she seriously agrees with me and tells me how she is not like that but she knows someone who sucks who is totally like that : P
A narcissist can certainly be lazy and in poor health, absolutely. I have known/seen many of those. My father used to constantly complain that he should be allowed to eat whatever he wants and not be diabetic as he is. He was quite angry about it.
I myself have a massive sweet tooth and make concessions on my progress as I am not rabid about my goals, but I do intend to get my body fat to a certain level as a project. I’m MUCH slower at it than most people (YEARS!) but I have the benefit of being very proud of my strength and ability to do pullups, many people can’t. It makes me feel good and I do put hours every week into the process. I have several female friends who are very overweight and I don’t think anything of it at all. They are not me and I am not them. It really doesn’t effect me. They also have a completely different life story and focus contributing to how they see everything and I know that.
Final note: I’d have a really hard time lifting without a large mirror : )
Wow Nunya Biz, thanks for your insight. I enjoyed reading that and it’s certainly something to think about.
Usually, I tend to think narrowly of a situation (my N dad does also) or a person, which I can clearly see is wrong. Like when we all meet someone for the first time, we all have those first impression ‘judgements’ (if that’s an ok way to describe them), but mine have been known to be very black or white. This doesn’t match up with my spiritual rule that every one is equal and worthy of love and we’re all individuals fighting our own battles thing. Maybe that’s both embedded and learned traits of mine, being mixed together and fighting with each other due to my part-narc upbringing.
Bibi,
I have never had a thing for Colin Firth. It’s so funny to me to read and it makes me want to watch Colin Firth to find out what I’ve been missing.
Agree on the Magnum PI/Selleck legs.
One Englishman I have had a huge crush on is Hugh Laurie. It’s in part his voice! His voice drives me crazy and I loved his american accent on “House” but then also one day I walked into the kitchen and he was on a podcast interview and I stopped dead and said “WHO’S THAT?” because I was immediately entranced with his voice but I wasn’t used to his english accent so I didn’t recognize it. That was funny because it’s the vibration of it, nothing to do with the accent.
Hugh Laurie seems like a genuinely lovely man. Funny too. So does Stephen Fry, who has suffered with depression for most of his life – which for me shows that he at least cares about something. Same goes for Robin Williams.
But if we’re leaving the physical out, Alan Rickman has a very sexy voice, with that air of confidence and ‘do not fuck me around’ attitude. He was quite hot in ‘Love Actually’. (Shhh)
Girl-
I think it is amazing for you to say that! It is something that I recognized in myself. I’ve commented on here before some that I came out of my origin home very much categorizing people, mostly incorrectly. I did not realize that I had picked up the habit and worldview from my parents, especially my mother, without them actually articulating the view and process to me. I have always had empathy but I had no real idea how to use it properly. I spent a very long time trying to pick apart my views into finer and finer detail until I could form opinions that were solid in some spots and intentionally open ended in other spots where I didn’t want to limit my understanding of the person or box them into something unfairly and also to leave room for my own mistakes in perception, where I am just seeing it wrong. Spiritually I try to leave room for what is beyond my perception ability. It is a challenge and I can feel my mind fighting itself all the time. At my best I tend to see things in a scale of shades of hues with a hundred variable effecting the outcome, which is also variable. I think that is applicable to narcissism because you can have someone who “cheats” who is not a narcissist and you can have someone who “helps” people who is a narcissist. My mother, who is a narcissist, would see one thing or maybe two and judge. After living with her my whole young life I would categorize people into good vs bad- which was meant to differentiate threat versus non-threat, but what a terrible state to live in. I’ve met victim narcs who are a little bit less black and white I think. I still do it somewhat! I think it’s impossible to avoid completely because our brains are built for it. It is a survival mechanism to categorize because fire=burn and big teeth=scary, etc.. Your brain can work against you doing it’s natural thing, handling it is about meta-awareness which I find a difficult juggling act. I do believe empathy is one of the tools to flow through that and come to a higher level of understanding, but we can get tricked with that tool too. I think both of these things, categorizing and feeling, happen within the body though and you can be conscious of moving between the two simultaneously, but it I feel it can be a little bit crazy making because I come up with paradoxical thoughts at the same time and all at the same time as those opposite thoughts trying to accept the “soul” version of the person I’m looking at. I can’t juggle all of it very well at all and mostly I think it leads to me doubting myself, but whatever I talk to less narcissists lately.
I hope that’s not too weird and trippy.
I very much think my narc upbringing gave me a long and hard road and I’ve also commented I’ve done some ridiculous and questionable things along the way that I have to own up to due to confusion. I sorta feel like a half narc sometimes. But really I’m pretty accepting and if I don’t have some defense mechanisms I guess I’d be taken advantage of more, so I dunno. I wasn’t raised with proper boundary awareness, I just learned to tell people off sometimes.
Thanks for your comment, Girl!
Thank you Nunya Biz.
All the things you’ve said here are VERY relatable. I also feel half-narc at times. You’re really good at expressing yourself through words and I agree with everything you’ve written.
Best of both worlds for us, maybe? Not completely sloppy like a ‘wipe your feet on mat’ nor a cold-hearted void. My N dad is LMR I think. I say lower because he’s very much knee-jerky. If I was messing with something I shouldn’t have as a child, he would instantly shout at me and smack me. Very short-tempered, his way or the high way, very narrow-minded. Always putting people down or calling them names. I’m ‘better’ than others etc. My mum is a co-dependant empath. Very loving, would stick up for us, spend lots of time with us, let us be who we were, taught us manners and gratefulness. But my dad was the boss! She would never question his actions and on occasion, I’d often see my mum frantically cleaning, crying or withdrawn. Now, knowing what I know, it was the anxiety and confusion my dad caused. My brother and sister both have a lot more narcissistic traits than I do – but are not narcissists. They’re ‘successful’, they ‘thrive’, they ‘get on with their own lives in their own bubbles’. I am more of a helper, a do-anything-for-anyone person, family-orientated etc. I sit with homeless people and get them a coffee and chat, whereas homeless are ‘idle scum’ to them. That sort of thing. I’m not successful like they are, but I stand up for what I believe in. I have (as an adult) shouted and argued/stood up for family members and myself with my dad. I’m not afraid of him any more and I speak my mind – but then I’M the bad person for causing friction.
S,
I’m going to watch that movie, probably tonight, it sounds perfect for me!
Nunya Biz,
I actually like a romantic film, I just don’t like the ones with humour added to them (rom-coms). Romance is man-made, but if you’re going to do it right, ditch the humour and upgrade the intensity.
I have The Magnificent Beast for humour.
I hope you enjoy it. What am I saying?! It has Chris O’Dowd in it – of course you will! x
Oh yeah, Alan Rickman. I didn’t place him by the name, but after I googled him I immediately heard his voice in my head from his picture. I do like the odd, nasal quality. I like him.
SJ,
Yeah, I tend to be a helping leaning person also. I just like being sweet, but sometimes I think people read me as “innocent” quite a bit more than necessary.
My sister is usually a manager in a tech position.
I also like to sit with people for awhile sometimes, I enjoy being patient, but I’ve had to temper it sometimes lately with a direct “no”, it’s helpful in some instances.
Your mom sounds nice.
I may catch that flick later this evening or tomorrow still, I’ve come down with a cold that’s been going around. Good time to watch something silly.
Hi Nunya Biz
Yeah, we all have hidden dark sides/secrets. My temper since I found this site is very short and reminds me of my dad. Not for close family but for men, neighbours and generally anyone who wants to try me. I’ve had minor arguments with neighbours, the postman and a shop cashier. That’s me over-doing it BUT showing them I’m not the pushover I once was.
Feel better soon Ms Biz.
Settee, blanket, flick…bliss.
SJ, yeah, I get into some small scraps. Some I regret, some I’ve been seriously pushed. It’s interesting before I saw your comment it was on this topic I was talking about this guy I know who does that. He is this short, athletic man and I have referred to him as a napoleon because he gets feisty. I feel sure he’s not a narc, he seems like he’s always on about what’s fair and he gets worked up, but otherwise he’s very nice. I find him funny and he’s not intimidating to me or anything. He’s just this feisty guy.
Thank you about the cold, I am improving this evening, I took some cold/flu meds this morning and slept an extra few hours and I think I’m on the upswing portion, so that’s good.
Friends family therapist
From K Saeed. Just a lot of fluff and puff which sent me searching for other information and came across HG’s site. Then I knew I found the information I was looking for.
Good.
What is your opinion on Kim Saeed HG .?
I do not have one. I recognise the name and that is all.
Thank you HG , She does not have the depth and insight you have , just looking up this Richard Grannon guy now,
never heard of him
You are the best HG .
I am.
I was a little naughty HG!
I chose therapist, friend, and book.
The therapist did not see the clear signs—his red flags, my obvious “symptoms”— in the early days of my relationship. Had she done so, she would have at least made me aware of what I was going through so I could make an INFORMED decision about moving forward with him. Instead, when I trying to figure out what to do with the word salads and circular arguments and silent treatments, she asked, “Don’t you want to fight for your relationship?”
Ugh, remembering this is causing me some fury here and I’ve got to get ready for work!
I’ll fill you in about friend and book later!
Ciao!
My no. 1 is YouTube channels! Without a doubt the worst information out there are victims promoting themselves as pseudo ‘experts’ on narcissism shamelessly promoting requests to “like and subscribe”. People who are more interested in you sharing in their story rather than providing you with education applicable to your own context. It is a painstaking exercise in projection and self promotion.
Quite often they take material e.g., the label “fuel” without giving reference to the original author of the content. It is like the overly eager pharmacist who tries to sell you the cheaper ‘generic’ brand, when we know it is a rip off product. We should fund the companies that conduct the research to develop pharmaceuticals, rather than those who knock them off and threaten to halt the research altogether.
The genuine article is the thinking and explanation of behaviours from the narcissist himself aka HG Tudor. There is no substitute.
Indeed. There is a lot of rubbish on YouTube – usually peddled by Mid Range Narcissists .
Masters of being middle of the road – how dull. One can only hope that while these mid-rangers are peddling their rubbish they get hit from both sides.
I could totally bang Richard Grannon though. He’s cute in a silly goofy way and I just know he’s good in bed.
Until he devalues you.
I’ll leave early the next morning.
HG,
Richard Grannon gave you a very respectful ‘shout out’ when promoting the recent Radio 4 interview you both featured in.
He is not a narcissist, but you know this already HG. x
I do not know him to make an assessment one way or another.
It was a personal joke for Claire based on her comments to me (elsewhere) with regard to apparently always attracting and being attracted to people who turn out to be narcissists.
HG,
No, I got that.
Just thought I’d mention it. x
Noted, thank you for letting me know.
No worries HG.
Just wouldn’t want any of your readers who have never followed his work doing what Alyssa just did on the Narc Detector thread.
Best wishes x
HG are you saying Richard Grannon is a narc
I listened to a few of Richard Grannon’s YouTube videos and he sounds like a victim narcissist. Victim narcs sound weak and frustrate the fuck out of me and I lose interest quickly. I stopped listening to him and turned to HG – of course.
HG approves.
I thought he would be a somatic upper lesser (knowing the schools and cadres more). Back then, I just though he was a big-headed twat who reads a lot of tosh.
I bet he’s one of those who checks himself out in the mirror the whole time though Claire hahha
It’s ok. I can deal with it. Just as long as he does not pause too long.
Hahahha that really made me laugh Claire! Liking your style!
Thanks Alexis.
Hahaha!
His videos were the first I came across on YouTube. I can hear Miranda saying “rude”.
I initially thought this bulked-up gym-toating thicko isn’t going to tell me anything I don’t already know – but, his down to earth, humoured approach was watchable.
He gave my ET an orgasm after several months, whereas Mr Tudor has given me multiple logical ones, repetitively, in a shorter time frame.
He’s not a victim narc. I know people who say that he is actually quite grandiose IRL
Even hotter! I love grandiose men. The more arrogant and outwardly self assured the sweeter the fruit. This is why I’m in rehab. To be honest though—Grannon seems kinda dull on the intellectual spectrum so he would have to stay mostly quiet. And he isn’t the kind of hot I generally like—he’s like a boring Sunday afternoon dirty little secret.
In my experience, therapists do not know narcissism at all. The only place real helpful information is provided, is through your blog and YouTube channel. There are also some other bloggers and YouTube providers who can shed some light on the subject, but most of them seem to be victims themselves, and therefore their information is somewhat limited. Your information is definately the best!
Thank you.
Twin flames groups……it was reading what is stated about twin flames, narcississitic cycle yet people believe it is their twin flame running from them and they are heartbroken.
This is but one “source” of misleading information I came across long ago.
I will be taking down the Twin Flames Concept in due course.
HG
Re: Taking down the Twin Flames.
Thank you. From what I’ve seen, it’s right up there with The Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, and Santa. Offering something to believe in with promise of reward for needless deception.
Ditto, NA.
HG
I look forward to reading what you have to say about the “Twinflame” BS.
My take on them is people wanting to stay within their comfort zone of a lie instead of looking at the truth of things and growing…….I have been kicked out and blocked called a narcissist for voicing my opinion within these groups.
For those that read how upset I was with a group I was kicked out of, it was due to many conversations and a belief they were in it to help people, they knew almost as much as HG does of my story and I thought they understood. I could give a rats ass being blocked and kicked out of a group they know nothing about me and I expect to be called a narcissist.
What is twin flame?
A load of horseshit. You need not know any more than that!
I am looking it up—I can’t be left out of knowing about horse shit.
Claire
You make me laugh with your comments. I have assigned you a voice.
Thanks NA. I’m sure it’s a mechanism
to cope but seriously—it is funny (in a way) when not sitting in it and being on the other side. Being in it is serious enough people kill themselves so I don’t want to lose the reality of this. I attended a suicide/bullying awareness charity event this past weekend. A dynamic speaker discussed the loss of her 10 year old to suicide. (Recent global story)
It was because of bullying/abusive behavior! Hardly a dry eye in the event. This is serious so please know I am not taking this lightly much of the time.
Claire
I know you take it seriously and so do I, but a bit of humour here and there breaks the heaviness, and I think when people can laugh it signals that they are finding the way back to themselves. People are at different stages and have different (sometimes no) senses of humour, so there is always a chance that it might fall flat, but I have not found that here very often so it’s worth a chance for those who do aporeciate some levity. I have looked in on other forums that appear to be nothing but a wailing wall with no humour and no intelligent discussion. They suck. That’s why all the cool kids are here.
Haha! We don’t need a wailing wall. I wasn’t laughing much some months ago—thank you!
Alright I can’t help it.. One last thing. I’m not supposed to make fun of my ex according to HG because of the effect of emotional thinking. But.. I relapsed and cracked up last night with my friend. This middle aged cerebral engineer (soon to be ex spouse) went out and got a single nipple piercing according to my embarrassed children. Apparently he saunters around shirtless these days. So we envisioned 50 cent “In Da Club” serenading him as he gallops through his home.. Priceless. It’s not only the lessers who are funny! I’ll be good now forever forward.. You do you have to YouTube the song for the full impact..
Claire
Ha ha ha…TBH, I understand why you would make fun of the nipple piercing.
M
Thanks K. I’m not a prude—it’s just that we are age 40 something parents and it’s not like we have any tendency previously for body art or the like. It’s utterly ridiculous, embarrassing for the kids.. Yes, completely laughable. I need my attorney to put that we request he not display his mammary adornments in the paperwork.. I wonder if HG knows “In da Club??”
That’s hilarious Claire. I can totally imagine it. So funny! Thanks for the laugh 😂
I had read HG’s “Save the Children” which reinforces a tight lip on the other party—but I totally laughed out loud and the kids were laughing when they told me, although they were uneasy. I should have collected myself but it’s so ludicrous it caught me off guard. Never mind the ornate Buckle style 20 year old jeans. Just a never ending shit show of nonsense.
I can see why you laughed Claire. It’s very funny when you imagine him galloping around the house shirtless. Despite the constant mind games, narcs and their ridiculousness can be good for a laugh sometimes.
Indeed. Interestingly I’ve never seen this man walk shirtless in the house—we just don’t do this sort of thing. At the beach or the pool yes.. Funny how he pulls such a stunt at the expense of his children in his house.. He’s a moron. The girls have complained to the doctor of his verbally disparaging remarks about me—he just keeps building his legacy and I don’t have to say a word.
Claire
I agree with HG on it being horseshit, it is just a lie wrapped up pretty to make one accepting of narcissist behaviors and stay entangled.
I don’t advice looking due to it can trigger emotional thinking and the entire ooohhhhh they are my twin flame BS.
Ha, Claire, truthseeker!
Definitely remove ET if you peruse.
I say that because the twin flame concept plays right into addiction.
Just checked. About two paragraphs on Melanie Tonia someone’s blog (about the concept) was all I could take.
Your twin soul, someone you have a soul contract with, … even more romantic ancient!! concepts mention them being one originally …
So, people describe being drawn to each other infinitely, again and again, crossing pathes, …. but it’s often impossible to be together and connected to much pain. The theory is kind of … you learn things through this, you make a contract before entering into this life with each other …
There are good websites about it, also very bad ones. The ones which are being fluffy esoteric, all about being soul mates and that one has to be together with their soulmate …. are no good. No, you don’t have to be in a relationship.
HG does have a point, and the concept certainly can be misused, too.
But I don’t think it’s all just logical, and psychology … Sure, it has to do A LOT with our patterns and we are conditioned in our first years, or even in the womb … Maybe the metaphor is used because flames can unite … but not sure.
There are very, very old concepts about this, and also current ones with a lot of stupid interpretations, …. so … yes, they can be misused by either empath or narc as an explanation …. :/
Even narcs have souls, so ….
Hi Ava—if I have to cross paths with my ex again due to an ancient prophecy I’m gonna get hit by a car on purpose.. I like HG’s declaration of horse shit! I am definitely drawn to certain men for sure though. Its a complete handicap.
Oh that song belongs on my gym playlist, forgot!
I only knew of it because my girls keep playing hip hop in the car and I Shazam it all for them so I can get appropriate headaches at home by feeding into the nonsense!
HG, I have read about a “twin flame” being enraptured by the eye contact/gaze of their flame who they end up forming a formal relationship with. It has happened in multiple instances, I’ve seen it referenced. Does this mean it is a narcissist?
Twin Flame is nothing but a misguided and fancy name for the narcissist and victim dynamic.
Ok, re: twin flame
thank you for helping me see it more clearly. I had suspected an abuse dynamic in some of the anecdotes I’ve read, but had not made the full, complete connection.
I did additionally notice some eye gaze references that gave me pause and was surprised to see because they are less common, in my experience I considered it a manipulation technique as opposed to a spiritual elevation, but I can absolutely see the confusion and have spent some time trying to untangle those perceptions in my life as well.
It does appear to me that there are narcissists who intentionally adopt the concept of twin flame or some spiritual theories in order to manipulate? Or do they believe these concepts?
I’m asking because I have had two narcissists “connect” to me via spiritual and/or twin flame concepts. Do they believe this?
They believe them, they do not recognise that they are narcissists. The TF rubbish is propounded by Mid Range Narcissists.
I’d like to see you expand on how you can tell someone knows what they are doing. It’s always discussed that mid range narcissists don’t know and you recently suggested Michael Jackson knew indeed.. How do you see this? I do go back to work soon so plan to quit tasking you eventually!
Ok thank you HG! I had never heard of it before one had brought it up. I have to admit I enjoyed the idea. Of course I will always be more open to spiritual philosophies than you are.
Or, when I sarcastically referred to IDANOE as my “twin flame” regarding her feeling pissed when commenting on a recent poll. Unfortunately, my humor does not translate well.
I’ve read some stuff about twin flames which basically says that a twin flame is someone whom you get along with really well and have common interests and you can sense how they are feeling or your intuition becomes sharper having met that person.
And then there are other concepts that basically romanticise abuse and say your twin flame is the opposite of you, they might be more aggressive or whatever and will run away from you (basically discard you) :/
Either way they are not healthy concepts especially for people who are recovering from abuse or who suffer from attachment issues (love addiction.)
A healthy relationship isn’t meant to be this rollercoaster of emotions and drama… a decent relationship is pretty much two people who get along and fancy each other and are willing to make the effort to resolve any conflict… so sometimes it’s like a boring regular friendship with sex and that’s okay for securely attached people or people who are sick of the highs and lows and can now appreciate stability and consistency.
Witch! Thank you!
“a boring regular friendship with sex”
This! This! This is what I want!
It is a crock of shit and it stinketh.
Here is how such a concept happens:
http://www.sewerhistory.org/miscellaneous/the-creation-author-unknown/
The creation of the Twin Flame concept that is.
Dearest HG: Can you also take down or clarify when it is taught by them that everyone that is ensnared by a Narc has low self esteem, but when the narc mirrors them, they then see themselves and so they then love themselves? I find this so messy.
It is not the case that everyone who is ensnared by a narcissist has low self-esteem.
Dearest HG: I heard of it, but never looked it up. I will wait for your takedown. I refuse to deal with garbage, when possible, when my life and future is at stake. Thank you.
Actually … I don’t think it’s mutually exclusive.
He can still be my twin soul.
And those concepts often state that it is impossible! and very dark, oftentimes, to BE WITH your twin soul.
I am not saying it is the case, I am saying it is a possibility, theoretically.
I chose from a YouTube channel, a book and a TV programme. I’ve also read popular magazine or newspaper articles (some written by psychologists) as well as more academic articles that fail to really provide accurate or helpful information.
The worst cases are ‘popular’ books or TV programmes. The stereotypical narcissist is still commonly described as someone who is selfish, vain or overly concerned with their looks or who wants attention and admiration. Generally, not many people understand the manipulativeness, deception and irreversible lack of conscience and empathy, and there is very little in mainstream media that attempts to describe these aspects to the general public.
The other misleading aspect is that psychopaths and sociopaths are often described as serial killers, rapists, murderers and thugs etc. This makes many people assume that these kinds of people are obvious criminals and far-removed from the average person. It provides a stereotype that’s hard to shift or change and is the ‘go-to’ instant impression that people think of. I believe this makes it more difficult for the average person who may not have had a close encounter with a narcissist to grasp the more subtle and insidious aspects of Cluster B personalities.
In terms of books, I’ve read a few. Just one example, I recently read the book “People of the Lie” by Scott M Peck. I found it very interesting and it clearly described narcissistic behaviour. The thing that bugged me was the way the book described narcissistic behaviour as “evil” and the way religion and Christianity was used to justify and criticise particular beliefs and attitudes. The book was written in the 1980s so it’s now somewhat outdated compared to current knowledge, however, the whole concept of religion and evil with regard to narcissism is still widely held these days.
I think that describing the behaviours as “evil” or “against God” etc, just increases emotional thinking and moral judgement around the subject and makes it even more difficult for the average person to really grasp and understand in a logical way.
Well put.
Thank you HG.
I experienced poor information about narcissism from Psychologist. She said that I was too sensitive and I should had more trust people, because people were mostly good and they didn’t wanted to hurt anyone. (sorry for any grammar mistakes).
I trust you ditched that psychologist.
Yes I ditched her. What book do you recommend where I can learn about red flags on dates ?
Red Flag. It is on Amazon. Also use the Date Defender consultation.
Kasia, that sounds like the worst psychologist ever.
What an interesting poll! I’m really looking forward to see what other readers have to say.
There is some terrible info out there but also some very good info. Nothing else which quite offers the intricacy of info which I’m interested in. You HG, truly are on another level!
But I never forget what you are, so don’t let it go to your head!
I chose blogs and online groups and YouTube. I have only had consultations with you HG and read your books and haven’t had any dealings with therapists for me personally. I still see wrong information every where, mostly the fact that the more subtle narcissist behaviour is never mentioned, it’s only ever the loud, show off attention grabbing grandiose type talked about which is misleading . I think the most dangerous information out there is these relationship coaches/sites/books, where they are not about narcissism at all but are advising people about relationships and very often these people are in a relationship with a narcissist or a borderline or other personality disorders and these so called love gurus encourage all kinds of behaviour to try and keep the person trying to make this relationship work, implying they are actually the problem because they are not doing this or that . They keep people stuck and blaming themselves. When my ex narcissist went to a therapist and I went with him, they did not understand that he was a narcissist at all, I think the main reason for this is the myth that narcissists don’t admit there’s a problem and don’t seek help , so he can’t be a narcissist , he’s here trying to sort the problems out, but they do and they do it to manipulate further and continue to play the victim.
I entirely agree.
Hi Lisa, HG.
In my opinion the relationship therapist or church / community coach has an underlying belief that people can change. This is foundamental problem when it comes to educating people. Get rid of that presupposition and the rest would be a lot easier.
The church, those that beleive in good vs evil, the spiritual community, and such, these are perhaps the hardest to reach?
You are seriously onto something here, NN,
Also consider how Quakers believe/d that criminals/prisoners can be “reformed” and thus introduced rehabilitation to the concept and practice of imprisonment long ago because it is their deep belief that people can change.
One thing I’m always grateful for is once working for Greeks, who are much more realistic about humankind: “Oh, lisk . . . People don’t change!”
Plus, I believe that idea is embedded in their myths…oh, did you read that one about Narcissus?!
Time to pay more heed to the Greek myths than to what came after.
Hi Narc noob, so true, this idea of people changing and the belief that if you do this and that you will get a different result. Well that might be the case with normal people but not unfortunately with personality disordered people . No doubt someone will now comment that some personality orders can change , so I’m saying in general !!
I myself have been guilty most of my life of thinking that someone can change , particularly within romantic relationships and have spent way too much time giving people 50 chances.
I don’t know what will happen if I get into a relationship again, I’ve only dated a bit since getting rid of narc ex for good and I think my narc radar is quite good now. Although can I point out via another comment somewhere that someone said I shouldn’t be diagnosing people that I watch on TV, I don’t believe me telling HG on this blog that celebs in therapy in USA from my living room in England actually counts as a medical diagnosis , I think it’s my opinion due to them admitting about 20 things to the therapist on TV that show signs of being narcissists . The church and religion , well what can I say Narc noob, I’m very anti religion and any kind of institution like that so that whole good versus evil and church goers and very religious people are going to see things differently , that’s just not my way of thinking .
Thanks Lisa, I too was/are an avid believer in change and second, third, chances.
I am happy to believe for now that the N won’t change. Until I see a better argument. I’ve seen subtle changes, like *mellowing* over 40 years but the underlying traits are still there.
I was bought up in a cult, so like you, don’t like institutional religion either. I was very young when I left and went on to join a Christian church. I later discovered that was also a fundamental illogical stand point.
I agree, NN. It is the idea of change that causes ensnarement the most, it is my opinion the worst problem. I’ve always had an abstract underlying understanding that there is something permanent there and that it wasn’t about me in particular. That what someone is doing in a relationship with me is what they do in a relationship with anyone and everyone. That they would “move on” but it would end the same way no matter how much a narcissist will always point to something I should do differently.
I was making a decent but ultimately unsuccessful attempt to depersonalize the behavior of the N. But HG’s explanations that encompass all narcissists of various types and what is underlying is the thing that has really driven it home more successfully for me along with explanations of some behaviors I hadn’t identified or categorized at all.
I have been experiencing some hoovers from multiple people and the identification of the behavior has made things easier for me. While with one of them I did respond initially a couple of times (and I know exactly why I did) I still find myself far less interested and more bored with his behavior overall which is aiding me in being far more detached and therefore creating better boundaries that lead to my own independence and disinterest. With others I’ve simply ignored hoovers entirely.
I also find with therapists they are unwilling to support the idea of ending relationships. With anyone. Family, friends, romantic partners, etc… So that a person ends up in a permanent cycle of questioning themselves and feeling guilt over not responding to someone.
Interesting. This whole thing of hoovering.. Initially I just thought it was romantic relationship stuff until HG mentioned Hoover by proxy in a familial scenario. (Someone sending my kids expensive gifts after a display of devaluation toward me.)
I swear it is akin to swatting flies.
Oh yes Claire, massive trigger for me, my mother and sister attempted to ply my children with gifts and even invite them to get togethers while politely encouraging me to not show up. It is quite the spectacular paradox, I sit thoroughly devalued and criticized via my non-compliance and refusal (threw the gifts in the trash!) while they sit in place as “the good ones”. Luckily I value my children far more than myself and have paid willingly. There is a special place in hell for the purveyors of such ploys. I am not foolish enough to think they won’t triangulate my own children as well.
Sorry, ahem, ET…
But I am currently experiencing a (very very weak, but still not easily detectable) proxy hoover via a friend of an HG detected platonic female N. A preventative hoover from a professionally known narc who had caused me significant issue at work with very little participation or choice on my end. And a romantic hoover, the most difficult for me because I find him physically attractive and I am a fairly high sex drive woman attempting some celibacy while I try to sort my issues. I rationalize that he can’t hurt, but he can, and has, mostly because of my ignorance, not his power, he has none. Foolish.
Thank you for your reply nunya. New concept for me..
Hoovering behavior is imo, instinctively aggressive, calculated, and embedded with superiority and manipulation. I do not hoover people, I cannot imagine what goes through someone’s mind when they do something like that, there is no passive-ish “I was thinking about you and I miss you” or “I respect your boundaries” about it. It is about ensnarement.
Beautiful phrase “instinctively aggressive”—-my new favorite. Simple but illustrates an the behavior so well.
Hi Nunyabiz, it sounds like you have done some serious letting go. I see you are feeling better for it. Well done!
Yes, I agree with the therapist standpoint. The only one I’ve come across that doesn’t advocate *staying at all costs, improving things* would be a spiritual leader I’ve encountered, but perhaps they are an N. Ha!
Thank you, NN. Guilt is still a challenge for me, as always. But things appear to be settling as I reorganize my perceptions. I actually feel pretty good overall.
Ha, “spiritual leader” would catch my attention.
It seems like the focus on “healthy relationships”, yes nearly at all costs, is very much in narcissist’s favor. Really has me thinking. I’ve always felt there is underlying pressure to be a person who has healthy relationships while simultaneously struggling with my N family. Seems like a minefield for some people.
The amount of faith based marriage conferences are a testament to keeping people stuck in misery. The people that go are the ones that just attend all their church events or the seriously wounded dragging along a mid-ranger who can only behave for so long. The cycle starts over and repeats like Groundhog Day.
Great point Narc Noob, about getting rid of the idea that people can change. Once you accept that, it allows the empathic brain to stop trying and to focus on their own self instead.
I recently watched a TV documentary about addiction, and one of the addicts who had been seriously addicted for many years and had survived many overdoses, had decided successfully to ditch his habit. He was on the show after about a year into recovery. When asked why or how he started to change his addicted mindset, he quoted the line…. “when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of changing, you decide to change”.
I think enough pain can make SOME people change, but narcissists are in a different category. Their brain is wired in a way that doesn’t allow fundamental change. They can ‘pretend’ for a while and act like they’ve changed, but their underlying thought patterns and instincts stay the same.
I entered therapy when I simply thought I was just burned out (I had a work narc). I knew the therapist before, she did help me once. She started looking for all sorts of problems inside of me, asked “aren’t you grateful to him?”. Then she said “But he means well, why don’t you try explaining things to him?”. Haha, so I did. What happened? An outburst of rage, then I got ignored and lost months of my life (and money). When I suggested there might be something wrong with him and he behaves like a narcissist (the context of it all was way too indicative), she was angry that I dare to “try to diagnose him”, and in the end decided that since I am still angry at something he said months ago, I must have obsessive disorders and I must fear death. When I confronted her, she was only angry and defensive herself. Like in her little mind, all possible problems people have must be linked with fearing death, and all people that come to her must BE the problem in the relation. Not to mention she treated the situation like I was the only person there and like I was being aggressive. Now I got no closure from a therapist – in addition to no closure from a narcissist (obviously). She took her pride and sent me to a psychiatrist for something that I know I don’t have, insulting me in the process.
Isabel,
Your experience sounds like it would send someone into even more therapy! I hope after that experience you were soon able to find more helpful information.
It reminds me of the times I’ve visited general medical doctors and they would be dismissive and condescending if I suggested anything that either contradicted or added to their diagnosis or advice. It’s as though they felt that anyone else knowing about medical conditions was an affront to their own knowledge and it hurt their ego.
You have just given me a valid reason and justification for my doubts and hesitation about seeing a psychologist or therapist. I’ve never seen one, mainly because I don’t think many of them are all that helpful and also because I prefer to research and study the subject to understand myself.
Good therapists are indeed rare.
Isabel, when I was in college, I noticed a lot of the people that was majoring in psych and I was very alarmed. Some said it was easier to get good grades, when I asked why they majored in it. Some said they like to write. Because you like to write? I do not know. But my alarm has not decreased, but has actually increased. I live in a psychotic city, NYC. And psych topics are basic fare in the news and in the laws, and regarding children and incarceration, and the drug companies, etc. And the things I hear discussed and some of the remedies, make me feel outraged. One good thing happened though. A law was passed that people under these psych professional could easily change the professional without much of a reason. Something big brought about this change to bring more power to the people under psych practitioners.
Thank you guys… It’s too crazy when you confront a therapist, then she replies she’s worried and maybe she’ll give you some money back, but when it turns out you’re serious about it, she’s defensive and angry, insulting you and leaving without closure. It also seemed she didn’t care about who I am at all, claiming that “I have obsessions that my spouse would leave me” – which was never ever true and I have no idea where she got that from… I only had a work problem and she dismissed that, looking for all sorts of non-existent stuff in the area of my life that actually works. Also, because the work narc had no boundaries concerning pregnancy comments, I told him he was creepy. Then he discarded me and I still had to work with him. I was superangry. My “therapist” said that if my emotions don’t fade, I must have fears, so do I have an obsessive fear that I will never get pregnant? What’s the worst thing that could happen? I could go to a sperm bank of something. Really? Really? Saying that to a raised-Christian girl in a steady relationship? So yep. She had zero experience in narcissism and started to talk to me about sperm banks. I am sure this story will be funny in a few months/years, when I finally reach the “Bye Felicia” stage. Anyway, now I always ask a psychologist (I am not seeing any, because I know I AM HEALTHY and despite her words, I don’t need bloody drugs, but I have a uni mediator) – so I always ask a psychologist if they have experience in PDs. Because seriously, COME ON.
I get what you’re saying Isabel. When I think of a lot of so-called ‘professionals’ in the medical field, I wouldn’t entrust my shoes in their care, let alone my mental health and private thoughts, fears, beliefs etc. The thing is, psychology is a very subjective subject, and a person’s thoughts and statements can be taken way out of context by another person. So when I think of talk therapy or confiding in a psychiatrist etc, I think that one benign statement said as a passing observation, could be interpreted as a concrete diagnosis that puts you in a box for all time. I just don’t feel comfortable with the whole thing.
Psychology degrees by and large are a great means of never finding a job anyway. It’s meaningless (for employment purposes) education unless you get your doctorate or get lucky.
I think I got lucky!
After the first silent treatment and the fog of confusion I decided to look elsewhere as previous attempts at asking N were disregarded or ignored.
I read two blog articles, watched 3 utubes and then I found your radio interview. Due to the nature of the blog and the blogger, plus the small bit of information I looked at (which I felt was directed at me) that was my reason for staying.
I remember sending you a email as I was suspicious that you were one of my Ns. 😁😅
Many thanks.
Narc noob: Me too! I was subjected, after 2 and 1/2 plus years, by a subtle treatment by the mid ranger. He knew I had fallen in love with him. It was not even a full blown Silent treatment. I am/was a NIPSS so I had a long Golden Period, so that sudden indifference, and short sentences and lower levels of eye contact, just did not fit with me. I folded early. It almost killed me, and thus began my search for help, and it is how I landed here. Silent Treatment: sounds so innocuous, yes? Boy oh Boy! And from here, I started putting more of the strange puzzle together: triangulation, lieutenants, hoovering, fuel, mid rangers, and on and on. My, oh my. I hit the jackpot on all of it, and before I got a real good taste of it all, as well. But, that little bit was way enough for me. Believe me. We all have different levels of stamina to deal with all this, when it starts going bad.
Hahaha! Psychology class, of course.