Poll : Where Have You Experienced Poor Information About Narcissism?

POLL _ HG WANTS TO KNOW

When you start looking for it, you can find a lot of information out there with regard to narcissism. Some of it is valid, some of it is useful but they do not convey everything you need to know. Some of it is wrong and peddles myths about our behaviour which is unhelpful and misleading. Some of the information is downright dangerous in that it fails to recognise narcissism and/or encourages action and behaviours which are contrary to your best interests.

Some of you have had this misfortune before coming across my work but then realised you had found the Holy Grail and rightly jettisoned the poor providers. Some of you have been a little naughty and continued with other providers alongside my work and some of those other providers might not have assisted you (even confused you) to the extent you needed.

Where have you found poor information about narcissism? Where have you had a poor experience with regard to understanding narcissism?

Have you picked up a book which is meant to be about narcissism and thought ‘this is rubbish’? Have you consulted with a victim only to find they use it as a means of charging you for offloading and ranting about their own experiences? Have you seen something on a blog and thought that is nonsense? Perhaps you have encountered hostility on a YouTube page or on a supposed support forum from those operating the page of forum? Have you consulted with a relationship advisor who failed to identify you were with a narcissist and you found out later from my work or somewhere else that this person was a narcissist? Have you read an online page which passes narcissism off as something else and dangerously so? Have you had a supposed professional fail you?

Whatever it is, take the poll and you may choose up to three of the poorest experiences you have suffered or encountered and as usual do expand in the comments section.

Thank you for participating.

 

Where have you experienced poor information/experience regarding understanding narcissism?

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296 Comments

  1. Luckily, I found you first. Still, I ended up talking with a therapist for about 3 months, but he didn’t know crap about Narcissism. He fell back on the old “Adult/Parent/Child” relationship scenarios. He was good just to talk to about familial issues, but not to learn anything regarding your kind from. You still, and always will, hold that top spot.

  2. I went to a therapist who tried to convince me that narcissism isn’t real and that maybe the Lesser needed another chance. It didn’t go well. I had paid for another session prior but he asked me not to come back. He also informed me that I “wasn’t a good fit” for his group sessions.

    It took me a long time to find HG and to grasp the concepts. There was no way I could go back. I felt abused and betrayed from this “therapy” interaction and let him know straight away that his method was negligent.

    I’m finished with online blogs about narcissism. I try to help and share this blog with the victims. The “Angels with Dirty Faces” don’t like that. There is no sharing of anything other than “light and love.” I find this insulting. Empaths intensely feel anger just like all the other feelings. The negative emotions can’t be ignored. We learn from narcissists who get a tremendous amount of drive from these feelings.

    Not a day goes by that I don’t quote this blog and share it with someone. Especially when I see empaths going in circles… “why did he do this?” “Why?” “Why?” That’s when they are the closest to escape. If they can just realize that their confusion is the point. They want you to spin and some would rather spin than face the world as it truly is. It’s not easy.

    1. Jess, I hear you. A friend went through the why, why, why when her narc suddenly discarded her last year for the second time. He then reappeared after a full year and proposed marriage. She turned him down but she is now letting him back into her life. It is sad to see her pretending that she doesn’t care either way but already pushing her friends aside to accommodate him.

      I sent her here at one point but all she said was yeah, sounds like him, and then went right back to cracking open the door. I went back and forth many times too, but then no one ever led me straight to the horse’s mouth and mine didn’t discard me – I always left. Plus, my friend has a very good shrink who told her exactlty what her narc is. She won’t listen and it’s not worth it to me to confront her and alienate her. When she brings him up, I change the subject or simply say ‘that’s nice.’ I know it frustrates her that I won’t engage with it but hey, I tried and I don’t know what it takes.

    2. Jessrnny: Wow! A thought in the back of my mind was encroaching my consciousness that the New Age or Mysticism Movement, or Holistic Movement, or whatever it is now called, was making headway into the world of therapy. This is not going to work out well. Lots of people could be mangled or killed. Danger exists and can not be chanted away, so to speak. I am so sorry you had that type of treatment. It is not good at all. Well, I know you feel you hit the jackpot here. Human behaviour under a steady microscope. The good and bad and ugly. Like a good drink: Straight up and Neat.

  3. Anyone else been watching about NXIVM and keith Reiner? it’s so obvious the guy is a narc and NOBODY SAYS IT!!!
    HG I think if u did a post on Keith Reiner you would be a HIT. people are so blind. Thank you for opening up our eyes HG!

  4. I can’t vote for some reason but I don’t think I found any really poor advice except about emotional unavailability. The main helpful things were 1) watching the TV series The Fall – I suddenly knew what MRN was; 2) finding Vaknin. I worked it all out years ago.

    However, and this is a big however, I second guessed myself all the time and had no idea what it meant in real life until I found HG. Since I had already escaped MRN, I haven’t had to put the info to use with him. But it has made me recognize red flags in lots of other potential (and past) love interests and therefore weaknesses in myself.

    So, HG has helped me to understand what went wrong with MRN (someone I did really care about) and to become much more self-aware/protective. I don’t see it as being less open or that I have lost any of my ‘innocence’ – I just see it as good information that everyone should have about unhealthy relationships.

  5. As far as support groups, blogs, YouTube pages, and therapist, I’m at the phase in my healing where my energy is shifting away from the Narcissistic Abuse, back to me. When I first realized something wasnt right about the relationship I was in, and I found it odd there was patterns to the behavior of my ex, I researched like crazy trying to find out what was going on. I binged on reading articles, and watching YouTube videos. I think I pretty much subscribed to them all. After a while, it’s healthy to have the tools (thanks HG), and to start working on your defenses. Right now, I am in one closed support group on FB, and I set the notifications to where I cant see anyone’s post on my feed, unless I actually go to the site and make a conscious decision that I will only spend 15 min there a week.
    HG’s Blog, Narcsite is the only one I frequent, and have been for over 3 years now. In a way, I know I am breaking HG’s No Contact Rules because I still talk about my experiences here. I appreciate that most of the readers do not have a victim mentality, and we are here to learn, ask questions, have healthy debates, and help those who are just figuring things out.
    Even though I do not watch other Narcissist Expert’s videos or read their blogs, I am still subscribed and I follow who put out a video on what.
    Everyone has their own individual lessons they have to learn from dealing with Narcissistic abuse. My lessons were, the best things in life are simple and not sparkly, fight for yourself but dont get emotional and let the fighting consume you, I wasn’t “crazy” I just didnt know myself, and it was all about learning how to love-the narcissist has tried to damage my relationships with my support network, it has only gotten stronger.

    1. Writing about your experiences here Anm of course is a form of engagement and thus will increase emotional thinking to an extent, however it is offset by the logic, knowledge and understanding you gain (primarily from me and also from other readers) and thus is acceptable. It is the sitting around thinking about the narcissist with no tangible benefit which is problematic, or sitting with friends going over ‘why did he do this’ in minute detail and not receiving the right answers which is also problematic.

    2. ANM
      Those are great lessons to learn for all of us. You appear to have a great outlook and practical approach to learning in all of this. I’m glad to read that you are shifting the focus back to you now with what you have learned here and that you feel you are stronger. Your kids will see and feel that too.

  6. Thank-you Rainbow in the Dark – I saw both replies ♡

    “WhoCares thank you!
    Fist bump to the children of the MatriNarc 
    We will prevail.”

  7. There are some bad psychology channels out there who inform you that narcissists can change with time and understanding.

    I also find non-HG material shallow and incomplete. ‘The covert narcissist’ and ‘supply’. Yawn.

    Vaknin understands it very well but as we’ve discussed, his language is text speak and it’s harder to visualize in real world contexts. HG puts it into real world perspective and has more artful flair.

    One channel claimed that you could be married to a narc for 30 yrs and never see any signs of narcissism. Huh?

    Mostly just bad women’s magazines with crap relationship advice that makes it seem like the emapth needs to give more and be more understanding. That junk is exactly why I remained stuck for so long.

    Other channels are by ‘life coaches’ who give shallow advice that I could find on Psychology Today.

    There is another channel out there who claims that the sociopath stare does not exist. Well, I have seen it many times.

    Other sites claim that anyone involved with a narc is a codependent and other such nonsense.

    Their advice is akin to putting a band aid on a bleeding wound, rather than knowing that the bleeding needs to be stopped with a tourniquet.

    I will have to think. I know I can come up with more.

  8. Dear Mr Tudor,
    My lovely young late 20’s female GP was most sympathetic, however, was unable to give me any advice, so she suggested I see a female pyschologist
    (a discounted 10 weekly sessions, with a bonus set of steak knives thrown in for free)
    I asked the late 40ish psychologist, if she knew anything about narcissism …she replied “yes”, then immediately asked where I saw myself in 5 years …. I told her at my age, I’d be lucky to wake up tomorrow (she had no sense of humour)
    She mentioned a few basic things I already knew from a 2 year olds behaviour
    She had no idea …I could’ve taught her some “real life” basics … haha
    I never went back
    Not making any progress, I took it upon myself to research further coming across various you tube videos ( I leaned toward the male videos) they helped, but lacked the answers I was looking for as they were all “victims”
    I’m also extremely disappointed with relationship advice from so called experts, never addressing narcissistic/npd behaviour, could be at play

    I discovered Sam Vaknin and thought, you beaut, a narc, however, I couldn’t hear him clearly from his audio, or understand his strong accent and trying to endure his textbook reading, for me, was boring and dreary
    I kept searching and “voila”, I accidentally came across your blog
    To have a real, top gun of your game “greater narcissist” doesn’t get any better
    Your writing (and audio) is beautiful, clear, concise, in depth, no stone is left unturned and your unique ability to “empathise” with us, is amazing
    Your description in minute detail, (as if stepping into our bodies and seeing both sides) is extrordinary, who else could do that ?
    For me, your “interaction” with your followers is the “main” attraction (along with your books, videos, polls and now instagram) …it just keeps getting better
    You definitely reign supreme 🤴
    Thank you Mr Tudor
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    1. Bubbles I always enjoy when you comment! But this one is going down as one of your best yet!! 😘😘🥂🍾

      1. Dear Fool Me 1 Time,
        Awe shucks honey bunny 🐰 ….
        You flatter me gorgeous one, I’ll have a head as big as Mr Tudor soon (no offence Mr Tudor) 🤣
        Thank you so very much
        I’m extremely humbled
        You’re not so bad yourself you clever little sweet tingle thing you
        Mucho mwah n hugs to you lovely one 💋🤗
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Dear Fool Me 1 Time,
            (Do you know how hard that is to type your name compared to before?) up n down like a yo yo dear 🤣
            Ooooooo ….. To quote Mrs Doubtfire……. .” He broke the mould when he made me, dear
            He made me very special !
            🤣
            Thank you my lovely cup cake
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    2. Ditto, Bubbles. Yes, HG’s interaction makes much a difference. Vaknin will insult his readers if they ask something he does not like.

      ‘That is a stupid question,’ he will say to someone who is genuinely trying to learn. Oy. That guy has NO. SENSE. OF. HUMOR.

      1. Dear Bibi,
        Thank you so kindly for your response
        It appears all Sam V is doing, is proving he’s a narc and hasn’t got his act together in his professional capacity as an educational speaker ….. perhaps he should seek a few pointers from Mr Tudor 😂
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Dear Mr Tudor,
            Credit where credits due… hehe
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

            Ps …Happy Easter Mr Tudor and to all the lovelies here
            🐰🐣🐰🐣

          1. Dear Fool Me 1 Time,
            Thank you kindly for your Easter happies
            I hope the Easter bunny is extra good to you
            🐰🐰🐰🐰🐰🐰🐰🍫🍫🍫🍫🍫
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        1. I can only imagine Sam’s reaction to my silliness. I would never be like that around him. I would remain silent as a monk.

          I thought of another channel. Don’t want to name the channel just in case I am wrong but the dude’s real life name is Duane. I never trust anyone named Duane.

          He has a channel about overcoming a narcissist. Creepy looking guy I am convinced is a Mid Ranger.

          As example, his vids are all about what a narc his ex wife was and what you can do to overcome them, blah blah.

          He gave an example where he said his wife was ‘more concerned with going to her hair appointment than taking care of the kids.’

          Now, he did not give an example of what this ‘taking care’ meant. Taking to the hospital? Are they dying?

          Or had she made this hair appt weeks in advance and he is just pissed because HE has to be the one to care for them in that time?

          Sorry Duane. Not a good example. On this site we hear shit like the narc destroying someone’s beloved piano with an ax or multiple affairs, or theft or in my case, giving me an alias for 2+ yrs, etc. etc. etc.

          I only watched him to look for the Mid Ranger qualities. I don’t like Duane. Never trust Duane.

    3. I agree Bubbles. HG has a unique way of making all of the concepts and manipulations crystal clear and provides effective practical advice on how to stay away or stay immune. It is both informative and truly helpful. I am very grateful for this blog. I sometimes shudder to think what I’d still be thinking or going through if I didn’t learn from HG.

      1. Dear WiserNow.
        You’re quite right precious
        We are very fortunate with all that Mr Tudor has to offer
        What is exceptional, is his manner, respect, ethics and high standards
        How could anyone else compete with that?
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Dear Narc noob,
            Thank you lovely …you should see Mr Bubbles n myself at home …we’re a team act 😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          2. I love your sense of humour Bubbles. You always make me smile. All the best to you and Mr Bubbles :-)

          1. Dear WiserNow,
            You’re so kind pumpkin
            I passed on your best to Mr Bubbles… he was right chuffed and said he wishes you the same back 👴🏻( well almost a look alike, add more hair, change the colour of the eyes, different shaped face and oops, that looks nothing like him ) ..haha
            I really appreciate your comment dear one, if I can make a person smile, your facial wrinkles will thank you later
            😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    4. Dearest Bubbles née Sillyolperson
      your comment reminded of HG’s response to your comment on Blind or Stupid.

      Sillyolperson
      JUNE 20, 2017 AT 01:49
      Dear Mr Tudor,
      My psych asked me “where do I see myself in 5 years time”, I just wanted to get past that day let alone 5 years, she had no idea and I never went back.

      HG Tudor
      JUNE 20, 2017 AT 11:53 AM
      Thank you. I despise questions such as “where do you see yourself in 5 years time”. I often mutter, “dancing on your grave.’

      HG definitely reigns supreme.

      Luv K xoxox

      https://narcsite.com/2017/06/19/blind-or-stupid-4/#comments

      1. Dearest K,
        Golly gosh, that’s a blast from the past K
        Thanks for that ….see what happens as you get older … i just keep repeating yourself 😂
        Mr Tudor remains firmly seated on his throne because he also processes a fabulous wit
        Thank for that trip down memory lane K
        You’re amazing
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        1. Dearest Bubbles,
          My pleasure! When I read your comment, I immediately had deja vu and looked it up, to make sure I wasn’t losin’ it. Ha ha ha…it was a funny response and I remember laughing when I read it. Trips down memory lane are better than trips down the rabbit hole!

          Thank you for your kind words.
          Luv K xx

          1. Dear K,
            The older you get, the more deja vu moments …. except we’re actually losin ‘ it
            I’m forever in the “hereafter”
            Every time I walk into a room, I ask myself , now what am I in here after ? 🤔 😂
            Speaking of rabbits and the fact that it’s Easter
            “What do you call a rabbit infested with fleas”?

            Bugs bunny 🐰
            🤣
            Sending you many hoppity hops for Easter lovely K 🐾🐾
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          2. Dear Bubbles,
            Yeah, I walk into rooms and wonder why the hell I am there, too, and every once in a while I get deja vu, which is a weird feeling, not quite like being gaslighted but along the same lines.

            Ha ha ha…I love the joke, thanks.

            Happy Easter Sweet Bubbles!
            Luv K xoxo

  9. Lisa,

    You say, “in years to come there will be a better understanding of NPD.”

    I disagree. I don’t see how much better of an understanding we can get than what HG lays out here.

    1. Lisk
      Perhaps she meant because of HG’s work. If we continue to spread it, that is the hope.

      1. Hi Narc Angel
        I don’t mean a better understanding for us I mean in the world generally. The poll is about how much wrong information that is out there and even finding therapists well trained in this. I don’t believe there is a general understanding out there but hopefully will be better understood as more people learn about it.

        1. Lisa and Lisk
          Sorry, I guess I should have been clearer. Yes, I agree that there is not presently out in the world in general. I meant that if we spread what we have learned here and get it out into the world hopefully that will change. That the change can begin with us.

          1. NarcAngel
            Ahh I see what you mean, yes definitely we have to try. I do try to share things and recommend etc. It’s hard though because even when I’ve told a couple of close friends they didn’t get it and I think they thought I was the nutty one !!!

  10. WhoCares thank you!
    Fist bump to the children of the MatriNarc 👊🏼
    We will prevail.

  11. Rainbow in the Dark,

    What a load of crap to tell a 12 year old!

    “the rehab center offered an adjacent program for the family to go through. In that they gave you an illuminating understanding of addiction and the genetics around it. This was a huge thing for me to witness as a 12 year old.
    In there they told you, you WERE a codependent.
    That all children of alcoholics will either:
    a. become an alcoholic
    b. marry an addict.
    c. both.”

    Awesome comment by the way – and I think I see my mother in your description of yours. And then I went on to meet a mid-ranger too.

    Best to you on your journey towards understanding and healing.

    1. WhoCares…tried to leave a reply, for some reason it seems it did not go through…
      SO.
      I’ll try again…
      1. Thank you!
      2. Fist bump to the Children of the Matriarchs ;)

  12. >>when my borderline npd mother was put in alcohol rehab:
    the rehab center offered an adjacent program for the family to go through. In that they gave you an illuminating understanding of addiction and the genetics around it. This was a huge thing for me to witness as a 12 year old.
    In there they told you, you WERE a codependent.
    That all children of alcoholics will either:
    a. become an alcoholic
    b. marry an addict.
    c. both.

    I put my stake in the ground that I would not have an addict as a partner,
    nor would I be one myself and moderated my life accordingly.

    What no one ever was able to see, was that the alcoholism was simply a side effect of the NPD.
    So for my mother’s entire life, everyone thought the answer was for her to stop drinking. Therapists would advise my father to give her an ultimatum…him or the alcohol. which he was never able to do.
    I’ve often wished that that 12 yo me would have been informed about NPD. I would have been weaponized indeed.
    I have no doubt that much NPD is often masked behind the veil of addiction, and “if only” they would stop…it would go away.
    Keeping people entangled and…codependent.

    It was not until my early 40s, that a wonderful therapist handed me the book “Borderline Mother,” and I was finally able to see something that explained my childhood and various adult tendencies. We would jokingly call my mother the most appropriate title…a “Demon from the Ancient World.” And chock it up to a whole lot of “mystery.”

    It did not however, empower me to know how to NOT become romantically entwined with a Mid Range Narcissist.
    Having a mother as one, and then loving one, romantically are two entirely different things.
    My mother just seemed like a demon. There was no love from her, and no love for her.

    >>the “relationship” people out there:
    Who i follow, because I am, (or was, rather,) passionate about functional, evolutionary partnerships.
    Working, and operating in the “transformational” space, I pay attention to cutting edge info on intimate partnerships…which in and of itself while ensnared, had me just thinking…”how can I do better/be better.” ha.
    There are people who I very much respect, and find their work profound, when you have two functional people, being proactive in partnership.
    BUT, if one of those people is engaged with a narcissist it just feeds the dysfunction junction that is happening.
    I now look upon these conversations/forums and see, “Good God, these people are just ensnared”…and being told to be more communicative with “how the man thinks” and be more adoring/admiring/honoring/appreciative.
    All great in an equally met partnership, but when not, it just drives the empath into a deeper more dangerous hole.

    >>Friends and mentors would simply say:
    “he sounds confused”
    “he sounds game-y”
    “he sounds like he has a lot of things going on with the divorce/sick parents/young kids…so just be patient and love him.”

    This is very hard when you are mired in confusion and reality has been contorted.

    My own journey on this is still in progress. But it has been mostly all alone.
    Forcing me to dig deep into my own skillset that thankfully can understand how this needs to be addressed on the emotional/spiritual/physical/mental levels. Without addressing it all…I don’t think you can stop the pattern.

    Extraordinarily grateful HG for what you do, which is to bring understanding to something that is confusing to the empathic mind and the underbelly of our society.
    Personality disorder is seen as a murderer, or rageful person, or a schizophrenic mumbling on the street.
    NPD moves across the entire strata of society, and what you do is reveal just how that is with your own on point, classification system.

    Nothing clears the fog faster….because it is a fog…and little by little the mist clears.
    Your work has been the thing that comes in like the Sun, burning it quickly away.
    It’s hard to recognize that one was so fogged in. But at least it creates clarity. And with clarity the mind can finally understand it was existing in a radioactive hot zone, and the only thing walk away, decontaminate, cut your losses and move on.

    1. Rainbow

      What a great commentary on just how muddy this subject is and how woefully inadequate the resources have been to this point in dealing with it. I think in time we will refer to it as BHG (before HG and AHG (after HG) haha. Big credit to you for persevering in finding answers after that type of experience and while doing it alone for the most part. I’m glad you found your way here.

      1. Kudos, definitely, to Rainbow!

        I wonder if EACH of us had been “doing it alone for the most part” until we got here.

        As this poll clearly demonstrates, there is almost no one else except HG (and us fellow commenters) to work with on this.

    2. Rainbow in the Dark,

      Great comment! It resonated with me very much and I can understand. There’s a lot of confusing and well-meaning but totally counterproductive information ‘out there’, especially about relationships. A lot of relationship counselling encourages ‘relationships’ to continue and find a way of reaching ‘success’, which results in the empathic person striving to ‘do better/be better’ as you say, which just feeds into the unhealthy dynamic. I think these kinds of beliefs are widely accepted in society too, as ‘the right thing to do’, and is part of the reason ‘no contact’ and ‘get out stay out’ are difficult to accept and they take time to put into practice.

      All the best with your progress on your own ‘journey’. It’s not easy when your mind, childhood and whole life has been affected in an unhealthy way by your family. I understand you when you say you’ve done it mostly alone. It’s an uphill climb. I wish you all the best and hope you continue to have the energy to keep going. And yes, we will prevail! 💪😊

    3. An excellent post Rainbow.
      Too right nothing clears the fog faster than HGs work.
      Thank you for such an honest and well written post!

  13. If you think not that long ago the complete lack of knowledge of things like autism or bi polar existed and is still being explored. Even in the 50’s and 60’s people with what is now called bi polar were given electric shock treatment. In years to come there will be a better understanding of NPD but that’s not the same as there ever being a cure , because in my opinion that will not happen.

  14. I went to a therapist because I was so broken and crazed by the manipulations. I had looked online and thought perhaps my Narc had NPD or Aspergers. The therapist told me over many sessions to leave him and move on. Sound advice, but being an empath I wanted closure, to know what I had done to make him not want me anymore, to know WHY I had been treated the way I had. Therapists mean well, but they do not know how to identify and deal with narcissism. One day searching the internet, I found this site. I started reading the first articles and found my answers. Still not sure he was a Narc and not just a nice guy I had pushed over the edge, I had my first consult with HG. He identified my narc right away, identified what I was to the Narc and how the rest of my involvement with him was going to go down. Further consultations cemented my feeling that this site and HG’s insight were the only ways I was ever going to heal and go no contact. Bravo HG for all the assistance and insight you provide! .

  15. E.B.,

    That was illuminating and sobering at the same time. It just goes to show that memorization and cognitive empathy will you far.

    “I think this could explain why so many professionals do not seem to be knowledgeable about narcissism. They memorize texts to pass exams without understanding them. After all, memorization equals intelligence in our culture.”

    I think the bigger danger is that the professionals at a high level of education BELIEVE they possess real empathy. And we, looking for help, want “professional” help – and we put so much stock in official degrees and positions of authority that those verifiable badges of “knowledge” coupled with ‘real enough’ empathy is a mix a for just another form of entanglement – and an opportunity to be re-abused.

    Emotional intelligence does not, necessarily, come from a degree and all the hoops simply jumped through to arrive there.

  16. I can still see vague and misleading information about the concept of fuel.
    A therapist said that fuel = IP. If a N has an IP, he has fuel. If not, he does not have any fuel in his life. Others say it is just attention so they probably think that saying Hello or Good morning in a neutral tone of voice and body language is fuel. Another survivor said she did not give her narcissist ex any fuel: when he rang the doorbell, she told him to go away and slammed the door.

      1. NA,
        Haha, yes. This reminds me of “I am no contact with my narc family. I only send them cards on birthdays and for Christmas” :D

  17. -Someone with a PhD in psychology with special training in psychotherapy. Although she was not young and had been working in the field for several years, she seemed to be unaware of narcissism and family roles in dysfunctional families. This was back in the ’80s.

    -A social worker who claims to be a specialist consultant for psychotraumatology, non-medical practitioner for psychotherapy and systemic consultant (?). She works in a hospital and also has a private office. She was recommended to me to help me with other matters. At the beginning she was good at faking empathy and pretending to be in a similar situation I was in but when I asked for details, she did not know much about it and I saw her fury when I declined her offer. What she had told me about her private life was a lie and her empathy was gone. She has traits of a MRN.

    -MRN sibling has a post graduate degree in psychopedagogy. She asked me if I could help her so I wrote assignments for her, including those about narcissism and dysfunctional families. She said she had memorized all the material. Passing exams to get a degree without learning and understanding was all that mattered to her.
    I think this could explain why so many professionals do not seem to be knowledgeable about narcissism. They memorize texts to pass exams without understanding them. After all, memorization equals intelligence in our culture. I am not saying this is the only reason why there is a lot of poor information about narcissism but at least one of them.

    1. EB
      This is not a judgement but merely a question. Why did you help her by writing assignments for her? Was it out of duty to a sibling? Before you knew what she was? A feeling of responsibility as an Empath to help others when you are able to? Or perhaps something else completely? If you don’t care to expand I understand.

      1. NarcAngel,
        Yes, out of duty and before I knew what she was. When she was born, my narc parents told me I was going to be her godmother and it would be my responsibility to take care of her. I was not even twelve. Most of my behaviours are not because I was born like this. They come from my highly dysfunctional upbringing and role assigned – scapegoat who could do anything right. They made me feel responsible for everyone and everything including other people’s illnesses.

        1. EB
          Ah. I thought expectation and responsibility might be behind it but I was curious if it might be something else. You bore the brunt and I’m sorry that was the case. Thank you for your answer.

  18. Most of the information I located Was pretty good and validating in the beginning. However the things that bother me the most are people that describe behaviors of the narcissist with terms like “always” and “they NEVER” or “they subject u to EXTREME..whatever “ because it isn’t “always” this way or that way. Otherwise no one would ever be around them for more than five minutes.

    I think the DSM is the most lame description of narcissistic personality disorder. It doesn’t even begin to capture all the manipulation and defensive behaviors- And seems to lean towards the grandiose narcissist more than the covert or lesser. Thanks to HG we’ve all learned a lot About how to spot them.

  19. I have given up explaining to anyone – if I feel that they are mature or bruised enough to understand I direct them here. But I no longer get into the Narc speech – because if you have not lived it – you can’t understand it .

  20. HG I know you do this for your own reasons. Please don’t ever think your time and energy on the blog ever goes unappreciated! There are many who come to your blog who can not afford consults or seeking the advice of so called professionals! You give those people a place to learn and find the knowledge they need to heal. You have created a sanctuary for so many who thought they were alone in all of this, you have given them a voice and peace of mind! For the few who come on here and judge you without even reading anything you have written, is nothing compared to the thousands you have helped move forward and heal! Thank you HG! 🌺

  21. Hello, H.G.Tudor.
    In my case only the best of the best.
    My information should be the best and clearest possible.
    I started with H.G. Tudor who enlightened my life. But I searched and delved a little deeper into the psychology of narcissistic disorder by the hand of Sam Vaknin.
    I could say that both have left an imprint on me.
    Well, theory without practice and practice without theory makes a matter in my case incomplete.
    Two great Narcissists, one mental and the other Somatic.
    I believe that one does not need more, but to know and to drink from the source. Sam Vaknin deepens the narcissistic psyche in a masterly scientific way. While H.G. Tudor experiments and practices so vividly what the narcissist and the empathic feel, which really frightens…
    Both compete in knowledge and form a complete tandem in narcissistic theory and practice.

  22. Womans Magazines!!

    Today I read an article in ‘Psychology Magazine’ (Dutch). A woman asked: “if I love a narcissist unconitionally, will he change?”. The answer was (from a psychiatrist…):
    Be careful about yourself (don’t give too much). He cannot totally change, but you can try to make him aware of his ‘little self’ and his ‘big self’. When he is talking from his “big self”, you could ask “can you please transfer me to your little self, please?”

    Haha! Nex would have answered: “Don’t you like me big, babes?” 🍆
    Yeah. That would have been fun.

  23. Friends – who know nothing about narcissism – give horrible advice.

    Psychologist – who should know better: “Well he hasn’t been diagnosed with NPD, now has he?… We should really try to look into how we can improve your communication with him… Name some of the good things, he does for you and your daughter!?”
    Sooo… because he hasn’t been to see a professional (we all know how much narcissists love to do that) and been properly labelled, we should just ignore all the emotional and physical scars my daughter and I have from being dragged through his eternal narcissistic shitshow for the last 12/16 years?
    I’ll go find help somewhere else then…

  24. I chose 3 but quite a few applied. Ive gotten some great info out there but none was ever complete or from the deeply personal level that it is here from a narcissist themselves. The support forums you have to take with a grain of salt bc many are victims who have issues just as much as the narcissist does. When i help others im careful to let them know im still a work in progress and no expert. I share HGs work and let them go on to research and find their own truth and info.
    Im astounded by how many people are in the dark wondering around confused not knowing what a narcissist is much less the tactics and why they do what they do.
    I get a bit emotional when i look back at all ive learned here bc it really goes beyond words can say. Its freedom plain and simple. Its like a fog is lifted and you see everything for what it is. It still hurts but at least you know what youre dealing with. So i will share HG’s work as much as i can while keeping my own privacy and put it out there. My hope and prayer is one day HG you can find your own answers and heal whats happened in the past 💓
    My heart goes out to the people still stuck in confusion. I met one such person and have forged a friendship. This person is still in that fog and altho has moved on from the relationship the issues remain unresolved.

    1. Lovely comment. I have a bewildered friend who asked me if HG would be mean to her if she talked to him. The person being mean is her asshat boyfriend.

    2. Thank you for this heartfelt comment chimum.
      Your understanding of cluster b disorders and your compassion shine through it.

  25. I think that the most dangerous information out there, is the advice that portrays Narcissist as all the same. While they all play from the same handbook, narcissism is a spectrum, and the energy and depths of extremes depends on each narcissist. Example, I notice that there are some YouTube videos and blogs that suggest counter manipulation. While this may work on some narcissist, it’s dangerous to play these games with the more predatory types.

    1. Anm. So true, and they are also very afraid to discuss the schools of narcissism such as: the lower narcs and mid rangers and the NIPSSs and the DLSs and all that, including the word: fuel, because the search engines will also lead people straight to HG Tudor, and they know it: Too much competition for them, to stomach. Sadly, I saw some of them dance around questions of why one narc behaved one way and why another narc behaved another way, but these advisors just basically danced their way off the stage/the topic, instead of going into the various schools. Sigh….
      So, the advisors basically read HG Tudor`s works to learn, while they do as much as possible to not mention him, but HG`s works are becoming so ubiquitous within the world of learning about Narcissism, that what all these advisors are really doing is stalling the needy. However, we find our way here one way or the other. The only time I see some of them mention HG Tudor, is when they are asked if any Narcissists (since mostly all of these advisors brand themselves as empaths) teach on the topic. They are then reluctantly forced to mention HG Tudor, because they know definitively that once a client or potential client bumps into HG Tudor`s work on their own, and then remember that a certain advisor had said that he or she doesn’t know of any such individual, that feigned ignorance would be absolute suicide for that advisor, in the minds of the people that still deal with them.

  26. I have point blank asked my therapist about NPD vs. Co-dependency (I have a hard time telling mid rangers and Co-D’s apart within my family), and she was of no help at all.

    With all of HG’s help, you other participants, and my own self-reflection, I can more clearly see all the narc/empath dynamics within my family. I understand that those dynamics were “normal” to me as a child and teen, and that is why I have attracted so many narcs to me, as friends, as well as intimate partners. The dynamic is totally normalized in my head.
    In fact, my husband and I (both empaths) initially used our learned/mimicked narc traits against each other, making our dynamic initially seem like the typical narc/empath dalliance. I was comfortable with that. It was only when we both strived for self improvement and began to change that our dynamic became “boring” to me and I ended up in affair with MMRN.

    Knowing all of this allows me some self-forgiveness, and understanding. And it demystifies why MMRN was able to “get” me. It really has nothing to do with him, he could be any old narc, its just the dynamic that my inner child seeks for comfort and familiarity. That knowledge is freeing, and the ET is lessened.

    Thank you for being here for us HG.

    1. Hi Supernova De, your comment is very interesting to me as I am still struggling with the similarities between co dependents and narcs. You may mean something different to my confusion. So apologies if I’ve misunderstood. These Mid Range Narcs can look like codependents and vice versa, to me anyway maybe not to others . It’s hard for me to tell them apart particularly with family members.
      When you say that you and your husband changed your behaviours , do you mean you both stopped using narc traits or narc behaviours ? So both of you behaved empathic to each other at all times ? And this then became boring to you ?

      1. Lisa,
        I have a hard time telling narcs and Co-D’s apart in my family, especially the females. I, frankly, have a hard time knowing if I am Co-D or not haha. I think I am a standard empath (HG says so) that has Co-D type communication patterns having grown up in narc/co-D world. I’m still working on knowing myself better in this regard.

        My husband’s mother is a narc, his father co-D, and his sister is probably mid range (though she is one I am confused about, she could be Co-D people pleaser). My mother is Co-D, I think my father was probably a narc, though I am still not sure, I will have to consult HG to get a better idea at some point.

        I learned Co-D type communication and behavior patterns from my mother, and also my narc traits go up around her. My husband learned narc confrontation style from his mom.
        Due to those factors, I think when I met my husband, I felt “safe” in our interactions. We were both exhibiting disordered patterns, but only by mimicking our families.

        Once we had been together 15 years, started having children, etc, we both acknowledged that the way we dealt with conflict was not healthy. We both endeavored to better ourselves individually and also within our relationship. It worked marvelously well. We are both very intelligent and have great self-awareness. We can both readily see and acknowledge our behavior patterns and have the ability to stop them.

        We never behaved without empathy toward each other, that would not be possible. But the maladaptive patterns lessened…therefor the drama and conflict lessened.
        Yes! this was a good thing but when you are raised on that drama you subconsciously think you are bored when its not there anymore. Enter MMRN, and I was toast. Haha.

    2. Supernova DE,
      Many therapist, believe codependents are narcissist. That’s one of the reasons I dont follow Sam Vaknin. I believe he gets the 2 mixed up

      1. ANM,
        I have tried to understand Sam Vaknin’s “inverted narcissist” thing and I gave up. It doesn’t make sense to me. His stuff is interesting from an academic standpoint, but he’s got nothing on HG for practical everyday applications and examples.

        I actually think it can be very hard to tell a Co-D from a Narc in certain situations. Empathy is the key, but if the narc has good cognitive empathy then it can be very difficult as a secondary and certainly a tertiary source to find the truth.

      2. I understand S.V concept of the inverted narcissist, having dealt with people that no matter how much support, advice, empathy they receive they do not want to protect themselves from the narcissist, even after having several professionals tell them their life in danger. They are willing to loose their children, their lives for the narcissist. Nothing seems to ground them.
        I have also dealt with co-codependents that eventually have a breakthrough, they are slower to “get it” than people who are not codependents but eventually with the right support, drips of logic sink in.

        1. Hi Witch
          I’ve also tried to understand Sam Vaknins inverted narcissist . So is this some type of mid range narc or is this a type of empath ?
          Thanks

          1. Do not waste your time trying to understand it, it is misleading and unhelpful.

          2. I agree with HG on this. My best interpretation is that what SV calls an “inverted narc” is probably a very severe codependency. Beyond that, its muddy waters and confusing, and kind of useless terminology anyway.

            In fact, co-dependency in general is difficult to get good information on. Most literature out there relates only to partners of addicts. And it’s not a real DSM diagnosis, so between practitioners there is latitude as to the meaning and true implications of this on a person’s life and relationship patterns.

          3. It seems to be the most extreme type of co-dependent, at least that is my understanding. And they are rare.
            I would like to know H’s view on why it’s misleading?
            My guess is because co-dependents are not narcissists so therefore can not be “inverted narcissists.”
            From my experiences though, having worked with extreme co-dependents, they are different from your average co-dependents. They are willing to loose it all.
            Co-dependents, though they still feel emotionally attached to the narcissist, maybe even long after separation; They aren’t willing to put their kids in care for them or die for them. There self-esteem is not entirely dependent on “saving” the narcissist.

  27. Claire!

    You’re killin’ me.

    “It’s ok. I can deal with it. Just as long as he does not pause too long.”

    Omg. I needed that laugh.

  28. In the newspaper, every single day from Ask Amy and Love Letters from Meredith.

    And in every book that I have read that wasn’t written by HG Tudor.

    And Quora.

      1. HG Tudor
        On Quora, I read that NPD is a morality disorder and has nothing to do with GPD or environment. Ha ha ha…if that’s the case, then we all may be disordered if morality is the criterion for diagnosis.

  29. Psychiatrists know nothing, at least nothing of practical interest. Most of them are narcissists themselves. They are familiar only with lesser narcs (the violent type) or with lower IQ obvious psychopaths.
    Second come friends- they mean well but they have no clue whatsoever. Talking to them is useless. Especially women-friends. Men are better, they spot what’s wrong with another guy even if they have no info about the actual situation. Men get quickly what’s wrong but bore easily talking about it. Their solutions are effective and straightforward: leave him or bear with it and stop complaining. True, but not what’s needed. But women, again, women are terrible. Plus they usually gossip around about your situation and have their own petty meannes, no matter how close friends you might think they are.
    Some therapists are good, again, men therapists. Women therapists, at least in my experience, are frequently clueless and biased against their clients, especially if they are not married. If the woman therapist is ugly and has never been married, prepare to say goodbye to your money and get nothing in return. Same if she is religious. Most of them are inclined to find flaws in their clients. If they are divorced, the therapy might stand a chance provided they are well informed about PDs and narcissism, at least they’ll listen to you and offer competent advice about your person, never about the narcissist.
    Still, the worst place one can go for counselling is at a church or a pastor or anything like this.
    Again, my advice for all women with a narcissist man problem is to look for a male therapist 35-55 years old who is well read and experienced on PDs. When I decided to enter therapy I decided I do not need another woman’s perspective on men and narcissistic relationships, but that of a man. I am a woman, I have had problems with narcs (all of them men) and I know how this feels. Another woman’s perspective was not what I needed. I wanted to understand how a man sees it. HG and Vaknin helped a lot the whole process.

    1. I get the whole religious counseling statement. Most religious counselors will focus on keeping couples together, even if one is abusive.
      As far as choosing a Therapist based on gender, I try to not be that close minded with who can help people. However, there was a time, when a narcissist I was dating convinced me to do couples counseling. He was either an Upper Midranger or Greater. The therapist was a female. He charmed her, and she targeted me as the main problem in the relationship. She never even questioned him. I knew I was out, when he had her convinced that group sex would help our relationship. Wth?

    2. So true about males and male therapists. You are so right about ugly therapists and patients being attractive, etc.

      I deliberately sought out a male therapist because I no longer could trust female therapists, especially because they never tried to help me out of a bad relationship or they victim-blamed me and sided with Narc Ex.

      My male therapist is the first person who told me, “ He is not the right man for you,” or, “He sounds like a narcissist.” Yes!

      It’s because of this male therapist that I started searching “narcissist” on the internet and found HG and all of you invaluable commenters.

    3. Hello Q,
      Thank you for your advice, I really appreciate it. I had similar experiences with women. It is not surprising that there isn’t any female narcissist wanting to share about her manipulations, what they do to other women and why, even though they could do it anonymously. I felt upset when I saw hurtful comments about SM written by women on HG’s IG. They want to make her look bad. This is not jealousy but pathological envy – from ‘Empaths’.
      I also agree about most psychiatrists being narcissists themselves and not knowing about personality disorders. Since they are medical doctors (those that I know neurologists), they prescribe antidepressants and such when patients ask for help.

  30. Great poll. I went to a psychiatrist. (Known him for years) and he is a forensic psychiatrist but practices in the general sense—but that is his “other” specialization. He knew the marriage was causing the headache, ok. Easy concept. He failed to question WHY it was so miserable or to basically track the animal in the woods.. It’s not normal for a high functioning person to decompensate like I did. My job was high pressure yes, but to crumble like a saltine cracker?? He sent me to a therapist—she had me order a book. I received it. It was basically a discussion on getting a daily shower, taking walks, keeping a journal, etc. I was like WTF. Crumbled for a few more years.. He (spouse) left and I found the right information and I’ve done nothing but improve by leaps and bounds. It had nothing to do with a shower, a walk, or a journal. Oh—and a therapist tried to tap on my knees with her hands.. Not sure what that was. It amuses me a little at times now. If only HG could just throw us all in the shower and throw a bar of soap our way—what a means of curing this! Also, there is better vs. less better info out there. Depends on what someone needs. Some are into “healing” and it’s not my thing. If HG said to me, “You fundamentally need to do EMDR and take walks along the river”—I would.
    and that is ok. I’m not into EMDR type of stuff but I know it helps a lot of people. I can’t sit still to do yoga and meditate but I respect all of it.
    Are we able to say who else has decent work on here? There is one other person with reasonable material in the states..

    1. Sorry to hear that the abuse you suffered made you crumble and that you’re in a much better place now (from what I gather). Yes, psychiatrists, GPs and councillors are no help at all really, which is sad in these modern times.

      Ive crumbled too, several times (I call them mini-breakdowns) and I was on anti-anxiety/depression pills. Today, I have taken a major dip in my mood and my anxiety is through the roof. I’ve done nothing but cry and feel as though I’m going to pass out. I stopped my medication because I hate having to rely on them – maybe that’s the wrong choice right now and I should start them up again (they do take 2-3 weeks to ‘kick in’ though. I just want it all to stop. Everything.

      1. I shared a story yesterday about a triangulation my NEX used with me and I now wish I hadn’t. I don’t like sharing my pain or having the paranoia of people judging me for it.

      2. Sorry to hear Sarah. I’m not a big fan of meds because if I take an anxiety preparation it knocks my energy out for hours. I also have a propensity for manipulating my thinking to believe I need them more often than I do.. (addictive tendencies)
        Anti-depressant medication is documented to take 2-3 weeks yes, although the effect is so subjective I find the science maddening. My best suggestion is perhaps harsh but well intended. Get up. Get a shower. Take a long brisk walk. Exercise can beat the pants off pills most days. I’ve not frequently seen terrific results from anti-depressants (at times yes—infrequent and I’m qualified to make this assertion both personally and otherwise) but I’ve seen substantial results from fresh air, endorphins, and increasing your heart rate. I presume you are young enough and healthy enough—your picture appears to be a healthy younger woman! Counselors and psychiatrists.. I can’t entirely negate their use but my experience has been dismal and frankly I have worked with many
        of these folks, some personal friends, etc.. I’m underwhelmed with their expertise most of the time. Oh yes, they have a niche here and there but by and large I’m not captivated. HG is far more interesting and useful. He could knock the pants off any psychiatrist I know. And I’ve worked with top university psychiatry. I mean that.

        1. Thank you for your advice and information, Claire. Yes, a shower and some exercise is usually what is suggested – and I do agree it’s much better to persevere with that rather than pills.
          “Your picture appears to be a healthy younger woman” Young(er) than who? Yes, I’m healthy enough, it’s just that my nervous system has taken a proper beating. I have known of 16/17 year olds that have been on anti-depressants and anxiety pills, so it’s not specifically an age thing.

          1. Young meaning less inclined not to be able to exercise etc. Only reason I mentioned it—if you looked like you were infirm it would have been a “less good” suggestion. I understand the nervous system beating and I have to back track and elaborate on my comment. The book the counselor recommended advised me to get regular showers when I was depressed due to the home environment! Certainly that wasn’t the problem at hand, but it is glorious to work out squeaky clean and walk in the sun! I did respond well to an SSRI after giving birth and having strange thoughts. Within a week and a half I was completely ok after an extended period of extreme anxiety I was going to drop the baby etc. (meds have value at times)

          2. I do weightlifting in lieu of antidepressants. Not saying it’s a cure all or appeals to everyone but for me it is meds and works better than meds I’ve tried. I have to lift heavy, really improves my mood and is a fun hobby. I have to do it though or I suffer and will need a script.

          3. Claire
            I know of her. Watched a piece about her that was inspiring. Except for the part about downing raw eggs lol.

          4. I love swimming and bike rides.
            It does lift your mood, but the MR has made me plateau out. Well, MY own mind has I suppose – dealing with all this.

            Good for you, Nunya Biz.

          5. I imagine he takes long walks and has a rowing/treadmill machine he used in the privacy of his own home (alone).

          6. Oh yes, Claire, I saw her before! I will look up a bit more about her philosophies, etc… She looks amazing. Inspiring.
            I watch videos regularly and enjoy challenging myself. I’m in the middle of some goals and I am able to do pullups with added weight on a belt and my deadlift is pretty strong. It really makes me feel good about myself and the endorphins are life saving, I’ll probably still do it at 82, we’ll see!

          7. One thing the N got me into was exercise. I was kinda a couch potato…ok I was a full fledged couch potato….I now have had personal trainer for over a year and started running. This was all after I lost 40 pounds. Trying to find some positive out there……

          8. She is awesome. Just some middle aged overweight woman that got into working out.. Not overly grandiose about it. Pills can kiss my ass. The psychiatrist I went to was $300/hour and as helpful as tits on a boar hog. My personal trainer is a fraction of that and is honestly a super guy—totally not a narc—not that it would matter in that element of my life. My upper back hurts today from his ass kicking—not my freaking brain from a complete asshole pissing all over my house.

          9. Huh, raw eggs doesn’t seem a good idea, I thought less digestible.
            I could see HG doing that too, GTGM.

          10. HG does not do raw eggs! I wonder if he would for a lady companion though?!

          11. He had a picture on Instagram of one that he had made and it looked delicious!

          12. Claire I’ll have a look and see if I can find it for you. Found it! March 14th. 🙃

          13. A secret narcissistic sorta skill—I see—maybe we are both mid rangers and HG is too kind to tell us!! (Because we wouldn’t understand anyway!)

          14. Haaaa! Claire do you not know? Empaths make better detectives!! 🤣🤣🙃