Consent
Consent is not a matter which preys on the mind of our kind much at all. This is driven by the following factors: –
- Our sense of entitlement. We do as we please, how we please, when we please and with whom we please. We are access all areas;
- Our inability to recognise and respect boundaries. This links with our sense of entitlement whereby nobody is off limits to us. Somebody is in a relationship? So what, they are fair game to us. That seat is taken. Yes, it is, by us. That drink was meant for somebody else? Tough. We invade personal space, take things which are not ours, commandeer other people’s resources and act as if we own the place because in our minds, we do.
- You are part of us. You are subsumed within us, attached to us and since you are a part of us, why on earth do we need to ask ourselves for permission to do something? That is nonsensical from our perspective.
- We are unaccountable. Even if we actually thought that we might need consent it does not matter because the consequence arising from failing to obtain consent to do something will not apply to us. We are able to escape blame, evade liability and shirk culpability.
- Our sense of superiority. Consent is a chain. It restricts and hinders. We are the behemoth that strides ever forward and as such consent does not apply to a titan like us. Consent is what the little people have to obtained.
This attitude to consent means that we behave like a marauding invader. Everything is up for grabs. How might this manifest?
With the Lesser it is blatant and obvious. He will tell you that he is moving in with you and turn up with his suitcase and guitar (with broken string) and smile as he breezes past you into the house. Your resources are taken – money, food, energy – without any explanation offered. Your friends are seized either to be shoved to one aside and told what the Lesser really thinks of them, or flirted with and identified for triangulation potential. The Lesser will invite him round without asking, use your car without checking first (and not replace the petrol that is used). He will readily incur credit on your behalf. If you challenge him about this failure to seek and obtain consent all he will hear is that you are criticising him. He will rarely bother to even think of an excuse for his actions. He does not need to explain himself to you. If he does decide to respond the explanation is usually obviously incredible but this does not matter to him because he can do as he pleases and you need to get with the program.
“We share everything in this house.”
“What’s yours is mine.”
“I can’t believe you are making such a fuss.”
“No I didn’t use it.”
“It wasn’t me.”
“Somebody else must have taken it.”
He can do this because he is who he is and you had better quit you complaining out you will get what is coming to you and then some. Your person fairs no better. You will be groped in public, he will get up in your face during arguments, assault you, rape you, expect you to look the way he wants you too without any consideration for whether you wanted his name tattooed on your neck or whether short hair actually suits you. He is entitled. Full stop.
The Mid-Range is less brutish and obvious in his sequestrating behaviour but is no less invasive. Where he differs from the Lesser is that he has enough control not to fly off the handle when challenged about the fact that he used the housekeeping for beer or used up all the hot water without putting the immersion heater on. Instead, the Mid-Range will offer an explanation, even an apology (although it is not meant) in order to ensure that consent is retrospectively given.
“I thought I had already asked you.”
“I am sorry, I wasn’t thinking. I will remember next time.”
“It was an emergency and I did not have time. Don’t be angry with me.”
“I will replace it tomorrow (that won’t happen) let’s not fall out now, I have something good to tell you.”
“I meant to get another one, I just plain forgot because I was busy running around after you.”
“I was hungry; you don’t begrudge me having something to eat do you?”
The Mid-Range will con you into granting consent so that he can file this away and use it for next time.
“But you didn’t mind last time.”
“Last time you said it was okay.”
“You said nothing when I did it last time, so how am I to know you don’t agree now? I am not a mind-reader.”
The Mid-Range will especially engage in making you feel sorry for him so you grant the consent retrospectively, he will make you feel guilty for objecting and make you seem like a spoilsport if you do not go along with what he wants.
What about the Greater? As you would expect there is none of the out and out grabbing of the Lesser as the Greater finds such behaviour vulgar. Nor would he engage in the pitiful mewling of the Mid-Range, that is ignoble and beneath the Greater. Of course the Greater has just as great, if not greater expectations that he can do as he pleases however his increased cognitive ability and awareness means that if need be, he will just plough on regardless and do as he pleases but he recognises the value in actually obtaining consent. Indeed, the extraction of this consent from a seemingly unwilling victim is a challenge the Greater relishes as it draws fuel, underlines his power and emphasises his superiority. You can expect the Greater to use emotional blackmail, bribery and coercion to extract the consent.
“If you agree to do it, I will take you somewhere good for dinner.”
“If you don’t do it, I will leave you.”
“If you refuse I just might have to publish those pictures I have of you.”
“I never thought of your as boring, everybody else does it you know?”
“My ex would do it without question. Maybe I made a mistake leaving her for you?”
The Greater applies pressure, immense pressure in order to extract this consent so that the reality is that consent was never properly given, but that is not going to stop the Greater. Once you nod, say you agree, mutter “okay then”, consent has been delivered and he will plough on with whatever it is that he wants to do. Do not think you can change your mind. In the world of the Greater, you cannot withdraw consent once given and it holds good for the rest of the relationship. It is not applicable as a one off.
The Greater also will apply plausible deniability to any situation where consent becomes an issue, so that if he is challenged by a third party with regard to the issue of consent, for example, taking somebody’s vehicle or using their money, he will use a combination of charm and out and out lies in order to damage the victim’s version of events and make it appear that consent was provided. The scheming intelligence of the Greater combined with the traits mentioned at the outset of this piece enable him to behave with impunity with regard to the issue of consent.
102 thoughts on “Consent”
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Hi HG,
1. Why did the narcissist rape me after my rejecting his attempts to date and to having sex with him?
2. On our first date, why did the narcissist rape me after I yelled “stop” at him?
Fuel, control, sense of entitlement, lack of accountability, no boundary recognition, lack of emotional empathy. You (in his mind) were rejecting his control therefore his narcissism caused him to assert control through sexual violence.
Omg! Okay, thank you, HG. This really helps with my healing and protection.
“You may for instance have an individual who is drunk and commits rape when drunk. That individual may not be a narcissist but their abusive behaviour was a temporary aberration caused by an external agent, i.e. being drunk.”
HG, I worry the causation reference in your comment, may lead some people to blame bad behavior on alcohol or use it as an excuse. Alcohol only impairs judgement and lowers inhibitions and impulse control. My understanding of rape is it is not so much about sex, but about aggression/violence. So the aggressive/violent impulse would already be resident in that person and the lowered inhibitions permits it to surface. I’m guessing you would agree that, narcissist or not, aggressive/violent behavior by a drunk person would be a red flag to avoid and not excuse regardless.
I just want to give an update…
The file is now closed with the police. Unfortunately there was not enough proof to press charges and I didn’t fight back hard enough. I didn’t fight back because I knew he was way stronger than me and in that moment I thought it would only get worse but I probably don’t have to explain that on here. You guys get it.
The police officer did call him and put the fear of god in him and made him cry. He of course blamed it all on me and said I wasn’t a good person and he couldn’t believe I did this to him. And that’s when she told him that this isn’t the first time he has been reported. So it has happened before and probably many other times that haven’t been reported because it happens in a way that makes you second guess yourself and he just normalizes it all afterwards.
I was scared that I lost all my empathy but last night I found myself crying and feeling sorry for him and worrying about his well being. I really feel like men need our help now more than ever. Don’t worry I will not waiver on GOSO, I just wish
there was something we could do on a larger scale to help everyone heal. I didn’t do it to him, I did it for me and for other women that might find themselves in this situation and now he has a history with the police so maybe he will think twice about it next time.
HG I want to thank you for all the work you put into this site. If this had happened to me before I found this blog I would be a complete mess right now. I wouldn’t have had the courage to go to the police. I would have continued to second guess myself and probably would have seen him again. In the moment I relied a lot on my emotional thinking and that got me into trouble. Old habits die hard. But now I notice that my logical thinking kicks in much faster and that really helped me communicate with the police in a calm and confident manner. My emotional thinking would have kept me sucked in and feeling bad for this guy and blaming myself.
I can’t thank you enough for all the good work you are doing. I’ve said it before but it’s worth repeating. Knowing The Narcissist is saving lives and it might just change the world.
Thank You❤️
You are welcome
Oh yeah, fight back, ffs.
I’m glad they called, TH. I hope you have healing.
XO
Hope you enjoy Yep its very cheesy in parts but not the niteclub seduction scene.
When we 1st began dating, his lack of regard for boundaries was a red flag i ignored. If i say anything about it he will fire back that i don’t respect boundaries and i ended up defending myself rather than him being accountable.
I was violated in the worst way and stayed with him. I convinced myself he was just drunk. Didn’t know what he was doing….he doesn’t drink anymore. I have sunk low enuf at points that i fired the event at him to hurt back. He says it never happened. I’m making it up. However i have to say….for legal reasons i can’t blame him on that one ..it does sting when he says i asked for it. Whatever.
Oracle
He is not accountable and you challenged him so he deployed the Second Line of Defence: Distract and Deflect by accusing you of not respecting boundaries (projection).
“The victim then gets sucked into justifying her own behaviour, trying to defend herself against the imaginary control she apparently exerts over the narcissist.” – Narcissist’s Twin lines of Defence
It looks like you were sexually assaulted. He is entitled to treat you any way he wants and that includes raping you. By firing the incident back, you challenged him and he resorted to the First Line of Defence: Denial (it never happened). He rewrote it and accused you of making it up (Every Victim is Lying) that is gaslighting. He denies it and claims you asked for it; all done to draw fuel, maintain control and superiority.
Irrespective of legal reasons (or the alcohol made him do it; that’s a blameshift) you were sexually assaulted, you didn’t ask for it and it wasn’t your fault. I am very sorry that you went through that horrific experience. Rape is very traumatic and it takes a while to process all those strong emotions. I am very happy that you found narcsite and you will get all your answers here, plus all the support that you need.
You may find this article very helpful.
https://narcsite.com/2017/07/23/the-narcissists-twin-lines-of-defence/
Dear Kiki,
Mr Bubbles n I just watched the Ted Bundy movie …. he was so convincing….. he came across innocent and very believable
Women luvved him
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Hi bubbles
Yes he was very charismatic.I have watched old original stuff on him but not the new movie yet.His eyes were cold and dead though if you really observe the original footage.He held no accountability for his actions even before his execution.He blamed porn.
I think he became infamous solely because of his looks and charisma.
A real twisted monster hiding behind a classically handsome face.
Dear Kiki,
You’re quite correct
We thought Zac Efron looked very similar to Bundy and did a decent job
Pays to be so careful these days …. people are like a box of chocolates !!
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
This last narc even looked like Ted Bundy. I kid you not. The timing of this post, the release of that movie and everything that has been going on just seems too coincidental. When I see his pics I just cringe. I had a dream after the incident that narcsite had a new feature where we could post pics of our narcs with their profiles! Obviously never going to happen but that would save us all so much time and heartbreak.
Twisted Heart
Post a picture……that made me laugh and cringe
I made a simple statement in an area no one knew myself or Jon and could connect us and he flipped shit….I knew the moment he saw it, it felt like a knife had been plunge into my heart. It also told me how deep he was in “watching” me to control things. It was also the trigger for me to look deeper I to things……and yes I flipped script on him without him knowing and used to get him where I needed him to be…..revenge isn’t the answer. Working on oneself is.
TH, Some of us have compared notes because they are all so much the same – what they looked like, where we met, how, what they do, where they live, etc. So far, I have not found any matches but mine does not look like Ted Bundy :).
In truth it would be fairly easy to compare pics without doing it here – for instance, how about we all turn our avatars into our narcs? That’s on gravatar, not on narcsite.
But I think a lot of us are reluctant to ‘out’ them maybe because we still have feelings, are worried about our own privacy, the legal implications, etc.
Twilight & SMH,
I think if we posted pics, us empaths would all go into emotional overload and completely breakdown. We would have such strong physiological responses to seeing their faces, it would just be too much.
I tried to play HG’s narc detector audio file to one of my very sensitive friends and she couldn’t get past the first 5 seconds of hearing his voice . Her whole body convulsed!
An orgasm of course
Ha ha ha!!!
Twisted Heart
Actually a picture of my ex no longer affects me, I have two I kept. I actually have a box with a few items I kept and two pictures I took of him when he took me to Haterrias. I looked at them this past weekend when I was going through stuff in my closet.
Good point, TH. I completely avoid looking at any pictures of mine. I am sure seeing his face would trigger me. HG’s voice never did (nor did it ever give me an orgasm, HG) but his style used to. Maybe your friend would be better off reading him rather than listening to him.
Take the ear plugs out next time then SMH!!
lol made me spit my food out, HG. wish you could have seen it.
Hahaha! HG I knew you would comment on that. That must be how you get all the ladies. They hear your voice and their nervous system goes into shock. After that it’s just like taking candy from a baby.
Funny not funny.
Not exactly HG. It was more like spiders were crawling all over her but I can see how the two could be confused.
Well I made a huge mistake of spending the night with a lesser last weekend. Fuck! You would think with all my knowledge I would see these losers coming a mile away. I make poor decisions when I’m drinking. It’s like my vibe says “Hey Narc, come and get me!” HG will an audio consultation help me make better decisions in the future? I can see now that I’ve always been attracted to these guys. I thought I was in control of the situation but I was not. Guys are getting worse. WTF?
It will give you the tools to do so combined with discipline.
What do you mean by discipline???
The red flags were all happening and I was naming them in my head as the night went on but I kept telling myself don’t be paranoid not everyone is a Narc. I’m way too trusting.
Lines were certainly crossed.
And when he texted me to hang out this weekend I almost considered it!!!!! My friends were like give him another chance, people do weird stuff when they’re drunk.
He literally spit on me three times during sex and not in the hot way.
I came to my senses and sent him this message:
Sorry to do this but I’m really having second thoughts about the whole thing. Last weekend was just way too much for me and my body has not felt good ever since. I’ve partied lots and have never found myself in that situation and I don’t want to make excuses for bad behaviour.
His response:
Yeah no worries
What the actual fuck!
Once again if it wasn’t for this site I would be an emotional wreck right now. I feel like a young Jedi who is being tested on the knowledge obtained from the Master and failing horribly!
Full Disclosure…
I had my narc ex on my brain a lot that night and actually broke no contact after 6 months. He answered right away, I was shocked. My phone died mid conversation which I thought was a god send but in that moment, I would have done anything for a phone charger. That’s when I could see that this was purely an addiction, Then the lesser came over to me and my friends and he seemed really sweet and funny. I think we all thought anyone would be a better option than my ex. My friends love me so much that they just want me to finally move on from him.
I fully admit now that I will never see these guys coming, they all present so differently. It’s like I traded cocaine for meth.
I’m so deeply ashamed and disappointed and I do not want any pity from any of you. I am only sharing this as a cautionary tale so others can learn from my mistakes and hopefully I stop learning the hard way.
I read Narc Angel’s letter today and it reminded me so much of my mom and my step dad and I really really want to break this cycle. Unfortunately I cannot afford the consultation right away
but will take any free advice any of you can offer.
I don’t go out looking for guys ever. My friends and I were joking beforehand that I was dressed like a nun. Not that it matters what I wear but I was covered head to toe and did not take off my scarf or jacket all night. I actually enjoy being single at this time. I’m just finding it so hard to get over my ex that it’s really clouding my judgement.
No men is a really good policy. Easier said than done. For a long time until stuff clicks and I’m not there.
Twisted Heart
He sounds like a creep . I think I would have punched him in the face.
Did the ex narc re contact again you after the failed called.
Please do not beat yourself up but learn from this.
Stay away from your phone when out and about .It’s easy temptation especially when drinking.
Something must have really triggered you to break no contact after six months .Get to the root of that was.
I mean you have to put the effort in and discipline yourself to implement no contact and maintain it, to recognise emotional thinking and counter it. I cannot do it for you. I give you the tools, you have to wield them and this involves applying some discipline.
Hi Twisted Heart, Your friends are not your best counsel. Please work on developing greater self-worth and self-love. By doing so, you will learn to trust yourself. When you know you can trust yourself, you make better decisions. With greater self-worth, when you see red flags, you will choose not to act on the temptation you feel. Developing your self-worth will greatly assist in applying HG’s excellent advice with discipline.
Hope you’re ok, TH.
Thank You for your concern Nunya. I really consider this place family. After everything happened, I wanted to consult with HG immediately. I bypassed all my family and friends and came here first. I think I will be ok. Feeling like I’m approaching rock bottom. I am not being my best self right now. My life is so different from where I was a year ago.
I’m so sorry TH. I don’t know your whole story. Last time I slept with a lesser I was thrown a bit for a loop. Cretins. If you want I will egg his house. It isn’t your fault they are tricksters. In my case he didn’t know either of course, but with your upset I wonder if you were dealing with a psychopath. We can forget that some people have a barely passing acquaintance with feeling and normalcy. I say egg his house because that was my fantasy with that one, which made me feel crazy but was oddly satisfying. Please talk if you want, and I do hope you consult it sounds like a really great idea for yourself. Sending love to you, TH.
Thanks Nunya.
No need to egg his house. I filed a police report.
What happens when it starts with consent but then you change positions and suddenly your fighting to pull his hands off your eyes while he takes you from behind and spits on your back. Then you’re fighting to keep him from putting it in your ass no matter how many times you say no.
And then what happens the second time when there was zero consent. When he just wrestled your legs open with his knees and tells you to just let it happen. At that point you just stop fighting.
When he texts you a week later you immediately start crying so you text your best friend.
What happens when you tell your best friend word for word what happened and she says people do weird stuff when they’re drinking and I don’t know what went down because I wasn’t there. Give him another chance.
I just told you what went down!
So you have a moment of weakness for 10 minutes because you don’t know what’s what anymore and consider seeing him again and then you lose all credibility as far as the law goes because it’s all on text.
What happens when you ask the police officer if he has any priors and she says “I can’t break confidentiality but woman to woman, he’s not the kind of guy you want to be friends with. He has a tendency to get drunk and do stupid things.”
No shit! When did I ever indicate that I wanted to be friends with him.
That’s it. Just a guy with a drinking problem. There’s nothing they’re gonna do about it.
Twisted Heart
Your best friend isn’t the best…give him another chance?!? WTF! I don’t think so.
Hi K,
I understand why you would say that and in the moment I was really frustrated by that comment. She is the best though. She was with me every step of the way. It is a sensitive subject and I think that’s why she was remaining neutral. I understand the gravity of that accusation and I would never report it unless a I was 100% certain which is why I took the time to really get clear on the facts before I went to the police.
In her defence she used to work in web cam porn so her sexual parameters are much broader than most and her boyfriend is in a wheelchair so maybe she misses that alpha male dominance. Context and perception are everything. It’s a gnarly world.
Twisted Heart
I know what you mean. Occasionally, my IRL empath friend and empath sister say or do something that completely baffles me (WTF!!!) but then I remember that they are there for me when I really need them.
Context and perception makes a world of difference.
TH, I want to hug you. I really appreciate your sharing this story, I want you to know that. I also want to tell you that I am in my 40’s and what you are describing happened to me in my early twenties, the details of the act I mean. I had consented to sex and sometime during I was held down on my stomach by a seemingly charming guy and he forced anal penetration. I said no, he knew I said no, he knew I knew I said no. Of course to this day I describe the act as rape, because it is. I always felt that it is hard for people to understand the feeling of betrayal involved, there is no regard for you as a human in that moment and there is no mutuality to the sharing of sex.
I have had a tendency to actively seek out narcissists my whole life. I can also say that I enjoy rough and aggressive sex ….and loving and intimate sex, the whole gamut. I don’t have a tendency to question myself saying yes and I take responsibility for my decisions very well! I’ve also been in situations that dance on the edge of reason and still have no issue, which I why I commented to you about feeling I “can handle anything” because I can handle most things and I have the ability to reason it all out so that I can enjoy my own ability to take risks that I feel comfortable with and I have to tell you that I don’t want to give that up for anything!!! Some of my most amazing moments have come from taking a leap of faith or being spontaneous. I have also learned somewhat to know when to trust my gut (I can get overconfident though). And I even should point out that I happen to enjoy that particular sexual act, as well as submission, but personal choice is of course paramount and I know when I am making it in my own mind and I do believe that most (nearly all) men do as well, even narcissists.
But that situation when I was in my early twenties had me upset for at least a year afterwards and I never had any help from anyone to process it. I also didn’t have my wonderful, beautiful, little people depending on me to keep my head, heart and sanity together during that time. I was alone. I asked if you were dealing with a psychopath, it does sound that way to me. After reading your earlier comment I thought maybe I was wrong at first, now I do see that it seems so. I have met a couple. They are extremely upsetting and nothing to do with you, but very disturbing to encounter.
I say all of this because it is important to consider the way a person like this can make you question your sanity, your ability to make a decision, and the character of humanity. I hope you can give yourself some space to give yourself some love and to hold yourself in your heart. I am thinking about you. I had also mentioned in my comment about how things can build up on you without you realizing that you are becoming vulnerable, especially being an empath. I see later that you described a lot of personal things happening right now. It is crisis right now, but you really can start to sense those states in yourself AND start to notice the narcissist red flags simultaneously and begin to better navigate, with confidence, power and personal authority, some of these instances in real time with practice. But you are ok. You are you. I am glad you filed a report, it really might help someone else too.
I also want to say, TH, we are here for you. Please keep posting if you feel up to it.
And also that when I talk to HG the healing and help and processing work happens on it’s own for me mostly in the weeks following, rather than during. He seems to kick off a process of growth for me that follows having his understanding. I don’t always know what he is starting for me as it’s happening. If you end up ready and able, he is so good, I really think that his help is brilliant and would benefit you. You can be in a more strengthened position.
Whenever you wanting, I just wanted to offer support.
And I also want to say something about the projection just as something for a point of thought, not as anything defining.
Where sex is concerned it seems to me that the person’s own internal view of what is “good” will be the guide to how they treat you. I have noticed a strange shift in recent times where men will fake that they think sex is “good” and that they enjoy it while secretly feeling that sex is bad, something to “win”, something to “get”, something to be coercive about, and something that holds value to people other than themselves in that moment. I don’t even understand how a person like that could enjoy it. To me sex is a spiritual experience to be chosen to be shared with another human being and if that is not appreciated for the deep generosity held within that intention then they should be left alone in seclusion and celibacy.
If someone internally believes that sex before marriage is bad and indicates that a woman has been coerced to do otherwise, then they will project that belief onto you, even if you feel that sex is joyful and that you are choosing love, life, and attraction in that moment. If they feel that they “tricked” you into having sex then they secretly hate themselves and believe that they are at core unlovable by another human being unless the person is manipulated to do so. Things lose their meaning, love is lost, respect cannot be ever gained, ever and they will forever be doomed to hate themselves. That shit is permanent.
If a man truly believes that all sex is loving and mutual and sharing then anything can happen and the future path of that relationship is malleable to reality and actual human feelings that involve joint contribution into creation and not destruction.
I agree, Nunya Biz. MRN thought I was this free spirit and he wasn’t used to it as he is very ‘straight’ in many ways. It didn’t make him abusive or cold but I think that’s because he was getting not only fuel but character traits from me through sex. If I was uninhibited and cool, he could be too.
Nunya,
You have such a way with words. You have the ability to express yourself so eloquently on matters that are very deep and complicated. I really appreciate every single thing you have posted on here.
I wish we could meet in real life and drink tea and have rich and soulful conversations together.
Thank you for all your help❤️
SMH, thank you for putting that into words. That is a great thought for this topic that I needed to hear. I have had that feeling a few times that having sex with a man had made him feel a certain way about himself by association and I didn’t think of it as “character traits” but that makes sense, that’s how it felt. I couldn’t understand why not appreciate the hell out of me for being that way rather than just take it as if theirs, I remember even saying that to someone. I have of course also been with a person who is not like that and enjoys the mutual appreciation aspect of sharing that kind of unique energy communication that only happens through sex.
TH, I so wish we could meet for tea as well. I think you are a deeply feeling person with individuality and it would be a great conversation. Especially also because I have given up coffee in exchange for tea : )
Thank you so much for what you said about words, I really wish I had a good platform for writing regularly. Even a very small following would make it worthwhile, I just feel I need a writing outlet for my thoughts and feelings because it makes me feel better to put it down- it feels done, permanent, and not floating off into the air. I developed the habit of writing some thoughts journal style several years ago and I found it so helpful- but I’ve thought about it for some time and have never figured out how to organize it. I am in fascination with HG’s eye for structure and organization. I figure I will find some way to write things when I’m ready to know what I need/want, but I feel better just talking directly with people regularly in writing because then I have a point and otherwise I’m pretty sure I’d just be all over the place. I guess I just have to try it eventually.
Nunya I was thinking you could give a Ted Talk!
But I think writing is your preferred outlet. I agree with you on HG’s writing style. Just reading on narcsite regularly has made me a better writer I think. So many good things come from this site.
Thank you, TH. I have always had a fear of public speaking, but sometimes I am very confident, depends, seems to vary
: ) Writing lets me experiment a little I guess, but even then I’m often wary to click “Post”.
As far as HG and other writers my favorite skill of a writer is self-editing (not rambling) and having a simple but effective and almost romantic (but not quite) expression. Structure, I always feel it’s the most difficult thing to do well.
Nunya!
I have a great idea! You should write Sex and the Empath.
Now that would be a delicious read!
Ha, TH, now that one I’m really afraid I’d ramble!
Like that shrimp guy in Forrest Gump, I’d just start naming different kinds of sex.
But the last page would still be “NO NARC SEX”.
Maybe “weird unpredictable narcissist sex tricks”.
Have you ever had really good sex with a lesser for six hours and then when smiling immediately after he says he can’t see you anymore. I think I literally said,
“You are stupid. Get out.” Of course he called me a week later.
Ah there… that sums it up.
Haha, I’ll think about it. Maybe I’ll do a blog sometime just to see if I can write anything readable, but I really have my doubts. I mean, it’s ok to have a blog nobody reads, I really just like the writing, so it’s free to have a published musings/diary anyway.
“Like that shrimp guy in Forrest Gump, I’d just start naming different kinds of sex”
Hahahahaha!!!! This made me burst out laughing on a day I really needed it.
Thank you dear friend❤️
Your book could be part how-to and part comedic relief.
I’m glad you are smiling, TH. Humor helps me. Thank you for making me smile too.
<3
The one that made me laugh, Nunya Biz, was ‘weird unpredictable narcissistic sex tricks.’ Where do we begin?
I saw comments from both you and TH that I wanted to respond to but they are either in my inbox and not on the posts or on the posts and not in my inbox, so I cannot figure out the threads even when I try to match up the dates.
Word Press is playing weird unpredictable tricks on me! Or maybe it’s HG’s idea of an unpredictable ‘sex’ trick?
SMH,
now you see it, now you don’t!
The unpredictability kills me, without the same motivations I can’t even begin to know what is about to happen. No true empathy means relying so heavily on other things (fuel production, “reasoning” things out excessively) it just makes no sense at all. I’ve been walking around for years in some state of shock and awe, just cannot comprehend. Which makes sense if I think about it, no empathy = so “why did you kill that person?”
“Ummm…. *insert very good reason*”
Sometimes just a narcissist explaining something to me and I’m like, “did you even hear what you just said?”. Exactly the opposite from the thing you said five minutes ago as it applied to you. Or actually took what I said and switched all the concepts around out of order so as to create a self-beneficial judgment of me. Or took one small thing I said and generalized it into a black and white lifetime constant. Or took things about me and applied them to all of the other people while somehow simultaneously making me feel like a black sheep.
Plus, unilateral decisions. I never understand things that are not mutual in a conversation. Something like “I will not speak to you now, or be speaking to you for eleven days, but on the twelfth day you shall be born again unto my sight and thine ears shall hear my spoken word and thy form shall come to life once again having had no burden of functions or thoughts or dreams or desires in conflict with my decree.”
Didn’t even ask first. Just for your information I was not interested.
I don’t know, just the screaming pain of trying to be seen as a person. Like if you cared you wouldn’t do that. Duh…doesn’t care, can’t care, you are a pile of traits and projections.
SURPRISE!
It is very nice to have an explanation.
Nunya Biz, I hear you about being seen as a person. My biggest revelation was that it was not personal – it wasn’t just me. One of the last things I said to MRN (in one of my rants) was that other people did not exist for him. By that I meant no one. Not IPPS, not his kids, not me. I would watch him ignore questions from people on social media, for instance, and I would say to myself ‘huh? he does that to everyone!’ I also finally saw the futility of trying to explain things to him. I think the nonsensical ‘communication’ – the word salad – happens because they don’t really have anything to say that is not fuel related. The only time MRN was normal was in bed and I think that was because sex was pure fuel (the character traits were just a bonus).
SMH, I agree with everything you said. This is stuff I had a conversation with someone about in the past and I said something similar to what you said about only being honest in bed. I think it can seem that way.
I also made a comment that I know when I am treated a certain way by a man that he treats everyone that way. I have known that for a long time. It is easy to think that any kind of devalue is personal, but I always had this underlying feeling that when someone does that it is what they are doing to all people at some point or another, in some way. It sounds simple, but I think it is an important distinction, because like HG talks about they always say some OTHER PERSON is better or that being dis-likable is specific to whomever they are devaluing and it can be very convincing. But I was like NO, HOW YOU ARE TREATING ME is who you are. You can’t deny that. But they do, utterly convinced it is fine to rip someone apart, with cherry picked comparative evidence. And narcs will often just join in with other narcs in group deVALUING. Joint value statements about real people.
Of course the best thing is identification and prevention, way too convoluted because there is no cure.
Nunya Biz,
About it not being personal – that was a huge revelation to me and somewhat comforting. I found his social media after I had found IPPS’s but she never posted a thing about him – never mentioned him, no pics, etc – so I did not even know he had it until one of his daughters tagged him on IPPS’s post and he did not respond. I followed the tag and found him. I was so, so shocked. First, it was weird because he was so pathologically secretive yet his sm was public (as was IPPS’s). Second, the pics were odd – off center, nothing interesting – he could not take a snap to save his life. He had few followers which suggested no friends, right? He wouldn’t respond when anyone asked a question or made a comment, and of course there were no pics of IPPS and few of his kids. It was all very, very strange! That is when I went down the Asperger’s route.
Really I only got angry at him after I had escaped because I was still walking on eggshells and he was still asking for attention, but there was no payoff for me – not even sex because I said no. My sister died a few weeks after I last saw him and I did not even tell him that she was ill. That is how alienated I was. I knew if I told him, I would not get the kind of support that I would want from anyone, including friends. Kind of like your dream where you were yelling and your husband was not hearing you.
So yes to all you said but I think part of the problem is that narcs can put on a good show at first, so it takes time to figure out what one is dealing with. That is why HG teaches us about the red flags, to learn to say no, and to trust your gut.
Yes, SMH. That is the ultimate problem and why a narcissist can’t work. A lover should be a friend, absolutely. That is a part of loyalty and other things (support, strength, understanding) that I think are important in any intimate relationship. That is just basic. A reasonable expectation, a bare minimum, a quality any fully functioning human should possess. I don’t find it difficult to be present in someone’s pain.
And this kind of thing, like you said before…
“I think the nonsensical ‘communication’ – the word salad – happens because they don’t really have anything to say that is not fuel related.”
I agree, I started to kind of get why it is that way- because they don’t have the option of empathizing or feeling certain things themselves, but yet need certain things. I thought of it in terms of what empathic people need. I need freedoms, love, connection, autonomy- so if I’m not getting those things I will keep seeking around any road blocks, I will use alternative tactics, I will seek relief relentlessly.
On a population scale, for example, citizens oppressed by a narcissist will march, maneuver, escape, block, argue, etc… Because they NEED freedom for their basic requirements. It’s not an option. But the narcissist sees them as a black-listed appliance. The people have no choice but to fight or face imprisonment, death, seclusion, isolation, abuse, etc… Same with relationships. I described it to someone once as water through sandstone, a path will be found, it is not a stoppable force.
I think when the narcissist does the word-salad or the nonsensical, paradoxical processes, it is just the opposite version of that, they keep wording things in ways to seek their control and fuel. So it comes out in ways that are hard to understand. It is still the path of water through sandstone.
It is all related, so seeing those red flags is important, the force can’t be stopped either direction? It is inevitable. It can be hard to see until it’s more difficult to handle, so I am on alert anymore. I have met also such joyful self-sustaining men and women though. I have done what you said, dated a narcissist and not even told them personal things going on with me because the trust wasn’t there. And yet they would demand things while having no insight into any of the rest of my life. No point in sharing anyway, it’s just leverage. It just validates their illusion they are a trustworthy, emotionally available person when that’s not true.
I’m sorry about your sister.
Thank you, Nunya Biz. Funny you should choose sandstone because I once characterized myself as sandstone and MRN as slate. I even titled an email that way. I was porous and he was impervious. I felt in the end that I was just chipping away at him – I even told him he was like glass and I could shatter him but I was like rubber and he would never shatter me.
As for telling people personal stuff, yes. It is now a red flag for me when someone is not curious enough to ask me about myself but just wants me to listen to them talk about themslves, without saying anything really – I mean MRN never offered much personal either – a lot of what I figured out I figured out through snooping. He did not even know that I knew his kids’ names because he would refer to all of them as ‘my daughter’ (there are three). But I knew that he knew that I knew and in our last conversation, he referred to one of them by name. It was so, so weird. That’s not me, though, and I want to be with someone who cares about what matters to me. That’s really it, isn’t it? One wants someone who cares about what one cares about. That’s what friends do, after all, and why would we put up with things in a lover that we wouldn’t put up with in a friend?
Oh, TH, I see your other replies now. Missed them earlier. Well good for you for saying no to meet him again. I don’t know about you, but I kind of mentioned to SMH the other day I just have these moments where I feel the weight of the world is on me and good sex can be a huge distraction. It really rarely happens that it takes me over. Sometimes it builds up into this massive craving desire. I have been trying really hard during those moments to flow through it. It is one of my biggest challenges. I don’t know where it comes from, but probably I’m guessing some feelings coming from things around me, I tend to underestimate the influences of other people. The other day my daughter texted me upset and it was palpable, that was right after a guy told me his sibling lost an infant child over the weekend and I could feel him upset and I had just taken care of someone with a headache and I had read something emotional. So an hour later I’m walking around feeling like a pulsing needy sensitive wound and I have no idea why because I didn’t put it all together, that I am “absorbing” to some extent. I spent a lot of time not understanding that, I have to trace back and see where the unsettled feelings come from. I think there are ways to process the energy?
And you know that’s why avoid the narc, because they bring those things with them it’s like solving a problem with a problem. So I remind myself to handle the moment and not invite more of those moments in. I agree with Kiki, don’t beat yourself up.
That’s my biggest frustration with narcissists is that I don’t think there is anything “wrong” with the things I want, but there is something wrong with that guy.
Um…I think there’s a learning curve? I mean it’s best to take care, but you can only know what you know when you know it. Sometimes you know it later. I’ve had that same feeling “I can handle anything.”
I cannot.
But…I kinda can?
I decided I don’t want to. There has to be something better for me to do sometimes than to “handle” more.
I bet your text was wounding.
Nunya,
Thank you so much for sharing your experience and your wisdom. I’m sorry that that happened to you when you were younger. It’s an awful thing to go through at any age. I thought it was the one thing I would never have to go through because I am 40 now. I don’t know who to talk to right now. You seem to understand exactly what I am going through in all areas of my life. Thank you for being so open about your sexuality. I too think that we should be able to express ourselves sexually because we are strong healthy women. There is no shame in wanting to have sex and I spent 6 hours or so with him, reading the situation and applying my reasoning and felt that I could trust him and so I gave the green light. The fact that he had consent but still had to push it further just makes no sense to me. I’m on the fence if I should continue fighting this. The police have offered to call him and warn him but I feel like that will just enable him more. He’ll feel as if they are doing him a favour.
Healthy relationships usually start off with mirroring too. It’s how humans bond. I don’t know who to trust anymore. I was so excited to meet someone new after my last nightmare. Hope dies last as they say.
I know my narcissistic traits are high and I am worried that this has put me over the edge. My empathy is very low at that moment and I am very defensive and exhausted. I just wanted so badly to get back to my outgoing, cheerful self who sees the good in everyone. Maybe that girl is gone now.
Twisted Heart, thank you for your thoughts about my situation, I do appreciate it, it was a sensitive thing for me to post, but I feel comfortable with this context and I really wanted you to know you are not alone. I am not now a completely different person than I was at that age, that was just an experience I had at that time that I learned from (and I wish I didn’t have to), but I have had others recently of course that I post about and I just overall needed most importantly HG’s perspective so that I could hopefully avoid some others. Even something small like my recent girl at work story could have caused me some issues that it now has not caused me at all. It explains why I have hidden and felt sequestered for a long time, a feeling of invisible pressure and unease, I never knew when I was going to end up being pushed in a situation so I avoided A LOT and then would randomly JUMP IN during strong moments.
I understand where you are coming from because I have felt this and I don’t think you could have known, but I do think you have gained understanding, but just at terrible cost and that makes me very sad. When it happened to me I could never explain to anyone how I felt like a husk of person. It feels similar to being hit or being tricked, etc… altogether. It is highly objectifying. It is physical violence. If you agree for someone to hug you it doesn’t mean you want them to punch you in the face. You are not what he projects, he is what he projects, that is one thing that I have come to see about narcs. What they are projecting is what they are. They reflect your intentions in a twisted way and take “flaws” as opportunities to confirm the devaluation they need for you to submit to superiority. That is who he is, not you.
I understand what you mean about the mirroring and healthy people joke around and healthy people can be mildly persuasive occasionally. I have also recently met people I identified as highly likely narc who seem very very nice and non-threatening. There are different kinds of narcs and some will not rape, but they will still mindlessly use and come across as not excessively bothersome *for a while* and I don’t want anything to do with them either.
I think with myself I get a particular physical sensation when mirroring is done by a narc, that is one reason I bring it up. Some narcs I feel an immediate desire to reassure or affirm them, some I just start bouncing off of. I have mirrored with healthy people. I am curious to observe the differences further yet and I combine that mirror feeling with the other red flag information. I know for sure I have been attracted to both empath men and men with at least some amount of empathy, both. Narcs are more predatory or energy drawing, however, and that tends to engage my attention.
I wish I could say something about the police, in my case I only hid in shame and I was alone in my life without even family support, so reporting was simply not going to happen. I am so impressed that you did that. But further understanding of what is best and how that works, I don’t have. I hope for either someone on here who has that experience or ask HG.
I think I would suggest taking some time to extra care for yourself, think of things that make you feel eased (a special lunch, a calming bath/hot tub, a movie with the kids) and do those things slowly and deliberately as support for a loving and calm life for yourself, because that is who you are. You will experience a change from how you feel now over time. During that time I would also think about observing empathic traits in men (from a comfortable distance). I have been trying to observe them and see what I find attractive about them, there is beauty around. It is nice to discuss empaths.
I don’t know if that is helpful, but that is how I would help myself I think.
*hugs* I care for you, Twisted Heart. Please know I support you wholly, you are more beautiful than you are feeling right now, I hope you can find that view of yourself.
Hi twisted heart
Don’t beat yourself up over it.We have been there.
Did you know this guy was a lesser ?
Drink can be a demon .
In the past I tried to validate my own worth through flirting with men.
I saw them as holding the key to my sense of worth .
It stems from very low self esteem.
I got hurt big time with that mindset , it was hard to pick myself up and say Fuck you I don’t need your validation ,desire etc to feel good about myself.
Kiki
Thanks Kiki. He was a creep and I can check off so many red flags.
Future Faking
Triangulation
Grooming
Testing me
Zero Boundary Control
Entitlement
Blamed it all on alcohol
No sense of remorse when I questioned him
What I need to pay attention to are my red flags.
Trust
Love Devotee
Optimistic
Giving second chances
Making jokes to minimize how I’m actually feeling
My narc traits: over confidence
Think I can handle any situation
Magical thinking that he came into my orbit at the perfect time and was gonna save me from contacting my ex again
What triggered me from contacting my ex? So many things
He’s always on the back of my mind
I thought I seen him that night in the same bar but it wasn’t him
Something on the TV really reminded me of him
On my way out that night A friend texted me to ask “what was that guy’s name you dated?”
I was bored. I wasn’t at the type of place I usually like to go to where I feel comfortable and happy.
And I was feeling empowered by my narc detector results. “Oh he’s just a mid ranger, I could totally handle him.”
So many mistakes. I’m so disappointed in myself.
Twisted Heart
You’re concerned with the wrong D. Disappointment is a waste of time. It doesn’t change anything or spur you to action. In order to break the cycle you spoke of, the Ds you need are determination not to be a dumpster for the bad behaviour of others in exchange for feeling worthy of attention, and discipline in not allowing alcohol to feed the addiction and emotional thinking that leads to bad decisions and abuse. I know – not easy. But necessary.
For my money, a consultation is better value than paying for alcohol that results in bad decisions that allow me to be degraded and spit on. You are worth more than that.
Not that my finances are really anyone’s business but I am a full time university student. I have spent approx. $500 US of my student loan money on HG’s detectors and consultation. Not to mention close to $1000 I have spent on EMDR and talk therapy. I personally wasn’t ready to talk to HG over the phone because I am very sensitive and i find him intimidating. Yes maybe I should have started with the audio consultation before but I didn’t think I needed it.
My children and I are moving at the end of the month so that is another added expense.
It’s not because I spent my money on alcohol that i cant afford it right now.
I just finished writing my finals and thought I deserved a night out with my girlfriends. I met someone that I hit It off with (that will be my first red flag from now on) and could never expected in a million years how that night was going to go down. Like I said I thought I was in control but some people will push and push to get what they want. No one expects these things to happen.
Twisted Heart
You have interpreted that differently than I intended. I meant it as a consideration in moving forward, not what has already transpired. I apologize that it upset you.
I’m sorry Narc Angel. I am very reactive at this time which is why I think I need to step away from the blog for a bit. I value everyone’s advice here, especially yours and I don’t want my state of mind to jeopardize the relationships I have built here.
I might want to write but I don’t really want to read right now because I am finding everything very triggering. I’m sure on a better day I would have taken your message in a completely different context. Narc Methadone may not be what I need right now while things are so acute. My emotional thinking is extremely high.
My relationship with my ex seems like nothing compared to what I am going through now. Maybe it was all preparing me for this. Even if I had done the consultation with HG, I don’t think it would have prevented what was going to happen that night. I think no matter where or when we met, the outcome would have been the same.
He was exactly my type. Cute, Funny, Charming & Stylish. He loved to dance and gave the best hugs just like me. We are both originally from the same part in Canada which was the number one reason I let my guard down so quickly. I thought “he’s a hometown boy, I can trust him.” We were both single and close in age and we got on like wild fire.
Before anything happened he told me “You’re never going to forget me”. Well now I know what he meant by that.
HG what is the manipulation technique called where they try to provoke you to prove yourself to them?
We were on my sofa and I was still bundled up in my jacket and scarf and I was having chamomile tea because I didn’t want to drink anymore and he said “Look at you, do you even get on top anymore?”
I just like to have a name for it, if there is one.
Thanks.
See now when I read that I interpret it much differently. It’s amazing what a good night’s sleep can do.
Thank You Narc Angel. Of course I deserve better than that. Any human being deserves better than that.
I think narcissism was definitely a part of this guy’s makeup but there might be other contributing factors. He just switched so quickly. It was good until it wasn’t..
“HG what is the manipulation technique called where they try to provoke you to prove yourself to them?”
“We were on my sofa and I was still bundled up in my jacket and scarf and I was having chamomile tea because I didn’t want to drink anymore and he said “Look at you, do you even get on top anymore?” ”
I have poked at people to kid around of course, but you easily have a ton of red flags to add up from this person and the goal of kidding is not to be coercive.
In this example there is
“negging”/shaming, moving goalposts, cherry picking, hasty generalization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
I have always been sensitive to manipulation tactics, I mean I have always picked up on them fairly easily, they are very often noticeable to me. The problem is, as many people on here, I have sometimes run screaming after catching it, but I have sometimes dismissed and made excuses, been patient, primarily because I sometimes took effort as interest and did not see clearly the downsides of said interest. It is not a compliment.
Another part of it is that I have sometimes just had ET reactions to tactics thinking I could change their mind….because I didn’t understand the point of the tactic is not to be correct, it’s not about “truth”, it’s subconsciously used to cause a reaction, so you can’t change their mind. They won’t remember even if they did change their mind because their motives are hidden from themselves often.
The downsides of manipulators are unavoidable and HG teaches over and over, you cannot work with a narcissist, their protection mechanism is airtight, so much so that they are convinced they are right from their point of view and that is convincing to you.
And biggest red flag you didn’t list…. I’ve noticed (and discussed with K some), that feeling of familiarity is a red flag. High likelihood he is MIRRORING. I’ve mirrored people before. Watch yourself when you go up to someone you want to get along with that you don’t know well. Like let’s say you are meeting a new professor for the first time. He says he likes “x, y, z”, you pick up on the things you genuinely like but throw in some extra affirmation you have things in common. It’s automatic (I try to be more aware and conscious wherever I can). Of course your motive is to get along with your professor and show respect and maybe be liked, not to kiss ass and get an unfair grade raise, just saying that watching yourself do things can give insight into what it feels like. But vulnerabilities can cause a person to reverse magnetize to mirroring I think. There’s a list of “vulnerabilities exploited” on the first link, it interestingly includes narcissism.
Twisted–I’m going to tell you something I’ve never told anyone before. Only speaking for myself (wonder if others have the same experiences?), but I have had several occasions where my thinking of my N and missing my N have almost seemed to draw him toward me. It often starts, exactly as you describe, with thinking I see him out the corner of my eye or in a stranger’s face who might share a few of his features (an ear, a lip, an eyebrow). Then, it is as though a beacon is sent out and I am called to contact him. I do not. Sometimes the episode fades without further incident, but on probably a dozen occasions, “he” somehow crosses my path. I see THE car he sold to someone else pull up just as I’m crossing the street. (Not the model, the same car!) I see HIM while walking to a doctors appointment past what I had believed to be a long-abandoned ‘hunting ground.’
I have begun to tell myself that when I ‘see’ him, it is because I miss him and that, yes, it is entirely possible that we are somehow still connected in ways I do not understand. I no longer judge it. I accept it as a part of my life now. However, as I stick to my disciplined no-contact, those times do get more faint and rare. Even if the rate of fading seems very very slow compared to other addictions or sources of grief. It will get better, but this process is nothing if not slow and painful.
I relate to what you’re saying J, it seems like some energy thing.
Thanks J,
I completely understand that!! I used to really feel him. It’s like nothing else and that night it was very strong. It’s like they’re right there. And when he responded so quickly it just reinforced my addiction. I’ve been able to manage it for 6 months but that night was the perfect storm to break no contact. I have no desire to ever contact him ever again. He’s dead to me now.
Hi twisted heart
I can’t advise you like HG would but what I sense from your post is that your emotional thinking is very high right now.
When mundane things remind us of them it’s a sign your mind is sub consciously bringing them up.
Your last comment about you can handle him as he is only a mid ranger is strong evidence of your emotion thinking fooling you into making excuses to contact him .
If he is a mid ranger lesser or greater it doesn’t matter DO NOT contact him.
This is not a game you can play trust me on that .
I’m going to be harsh to be kind here
He doesn’t care about you he will hurt you more than you know.
He doesn’t give a damn what you are doing only what suits him
He doesn’t miss you
He only thinks of himself
I know this hurts but if he is a narc this is the truth you need to face.
It’s hard to accept I know but you must
Kiki
Thank You Kiki. I know he doesn’t care, I get that. What I wasn’t understanding was the power of the addiction but I could see it all play out that night and unfortunately I didn’t realize it until that very moment. I guess I’m the type of person who has to experience it before it really clicks. Writing on here is pretty risk free and I’ve spent months doing that. It’s a whole different ball game to try to diminish emotionally thinking for me in the real world.
Great reminder, kiki.
Hi Twisted Heart, With regard to addiction, I watched a show about the addicted mind. It showed fMRI’s of an addicted mind when triggered with the source of addiction. The pleasure receptors lit up across the brain. They went on to explain the brain responds to this stimulus with a flood of demands, “I want! I gotta have!”
The prefrontal cortex that determines reason and would deny such a demand, is dampened in the addicted mind. There is literally a significant lapse between the stimulus response and the invocation of reason. So, perhaps when you feel triggered, remove yourself from the temptation (literally leave or take a walk) to logically determine your choice and response.
I am sorry you are struggling and hope you find support IRL to avoid such temptations. Maybe even make some new friends?
Also, in another comment, I noticed you have children. I wonder if this might help: When you meet a guy like this ask yourself if this is someone you would choose for your child’s happiness and well being. If the answer is no, take a hard pass.
Wishing you healing, encouragement and strength as you go forward.
Hi TH
You are not out of the woods yet ,nor am I tbh.
Your emotional thinking will surge at times .
It’s hard I know .
At those times you will want contact with him .
StAy here
I say this mantra
I deserve a man who will fight for me ,not some ego inflated bastard who smirks when I contact him.Its not natural the male should be hunting you down and showing his A game narc or not.
Stay no contact and build yourself up.
Kiki
Yes, why would someone not fight for someone who has good in their heart. There is something wrong with that.
Twisted Heart,
I hope you don’t mind me butting in here and don’t read this the wrong way – I am not lecturing you. I just want to share my experiences and what they taught me. We all understand how this could happen. I did almost the same thing with MRN – I barely knew him and I was coming out of another relationship with high ET. I am not that conservative but I also don’t normally sleep with someone I do not know. Luckily, MRN was not sexually or physically abusive at all, and I did stay with him on and off for two years. But narcs have this way of persuading us even if they are not aggressive (and he did get a bit aggressive around certain things, for instance condoms). I will never sleep with anyone again whom I do not know well.
The three date (or even five date) rule is there for a reason. It doesn’t mean everything will go well, but you will surely get a much better idea of what someone is like after three dates. It also gives you a chance to note and process the red flags, ask questions, feel comfortable, decide what you want, etc. If they don’t want to spend a few hours with you before you sleep together, then you know they are not good enough for you, even if it’s just meant to be a casual relationship.
During one of my down times with MRN, I met someone else. I went on a date with him just out to dinner and it was fine – even fun. He asked me out again and I said okay. It was lunchtime and we were out in public but he suddenly got very aggressive as we were having a walk in a park. I left. That was the last time I saw him but he harassed me for over a year – it was very bizarre but it all makes sense to me now.
I made mistakes there too – for instance, allowing him to come to my flat (not inside) to pick me up, blocking him but then unblocking him by mistake (he was literally creeping my WA 16 months after I had last seem him in person), thinking I should give him another chance, etc.
People show their true colours pretty quickly. This guy showed his on date two. Had I stuck to at least three dates with MRN, the chances would have been way less that I would have gotten involved with him either. I dated someone else during a down time with MRN. We went on four dates. He did not harass me, he was not a narc, but I still did not sleep with him because I wasn’t really attracted to him. I gave myself some time to figure that out. And then there was someone else post escape from MRN. Three dates and I said no. I don’t want to. Practice makes perfect!!
You know your worth, as others here have said. What I would add is that sex alone will not get you past your narc, and good sex with someone you know and like and who knows and likes you, is worth way more than just any sex. I hope you are okay.
I have been craving sex from time to time but am unable to seriously contemplate it in the real world being so ill with narcs right now. I definitely am watching people in a different way, in all situations and my primary focus is on my own safety and ease, which I now recognize in my own internal states better (it is there) and look for a feeling of calm and less pressure to guide me. I think what you are saying, SMH, is in line with allowing that low pressure experience to happen. It still lets joy, pleasure and happiness happen too.
Nunya Biz, Yes, low pressure experience is still experience and it is not boring. For instance, flirting is fun even if it is not sex, right?
I think it’s hard to separate what we want with what we need. Unfortunately, our wants often end up contradicting those needs. This past year has given me a chance to know my own internal states better and stop lurching from relationship to relationship. I find if I make rules for myself, even if they seem random and might not be what I want in any given moment, I can artificially put the brakes on things that won’t meet my needs. It doesn’t mean I don’t have joy in my life.
I do feel that sex is a need more than a want. Hell I usually need it more than I want it anyway. But I am just trying to not fulfill it with a person who brings heavy consequences. I am frustrated because I tend to be very generous and people who are not naturally generous make me angry. I see it in myself every day, I sometimes think I’m a narc because I get mad and react, but almost every time I get mad it’s because the person either obviously doesn’t have empathy or is simply unwilling to contemplate the effect of their actions on other people. Like today, I take care of people, take care of people, take care of people. I look at this young woman at work and I ask her if she did some thing and she looks at me blank like she’s in a coma or something (several times this happened) and tells me I could do it and I literally feel like punching her. The only thing that stops me from telling her off is some sense of decorum. I mean I just don’t get it.
“What can I not do for people” is not a valid life mantra. It seriously isn’t. And even in this discussion that’s exactly what happened. Some guy decides a woman enjoying him enough to share a moment isn’t satisfactory? What happens to “thank you”. Why can’t he do something extra for her?
Oh, but yeah, flirting is the best. I love a good, long, ongoing flirt. And that’s the whole thing, I say I like “exciting” and I do, but I mean I can’t even walk up a few flights of stairs without getting panic-y, seriously what it takes to excite me is a little bit of sexy eye contact, any variation of what I find masculine and the potential for some oral exchange later. “POTENTIAL”. I relayed a dream to you on here the other day that I was all porn-ing out over some “maybe later on” guy in a dream.
Nunya Biz, I’m not suggesting refraining from sex forever. Eventually that need can be fulfilled. I am just referring to taking a pause. I find that while I was always spot on in terms of what people were about, my people reading radar is off given my recent experiences. It needs to be reset.
I also had a dream last week (work narc, who I don’t think is actually a narc but who is married). In my dream I knew it was wrong because we were hiding and then suddenly the door burst open and all of our co-workers were standing there!! It was funny when I woke up but not in the dream!
Ha, that is a very funny dream. I have dreams inspired by reading narcsite (yours sounds like it is). I had a dream a spaceship that was extremely crisp, vivid, and clear came over my house. It tried to abduct me and I was terrified and being pulled while it had my husband paralyzed and he was in some pleasurable oblivious state and couldn’t come out of it to answer my yelling for him to save me.
I think sometimes new clarity/understanding can be scary
: p
Yes, SMH, I am on a long pause : )
Nunya Biz, That is a really interesting dream. It sounds like you cannot lean on/count on your husband and it makes you feel ‘adrift.’ It also sounds like he doesn’t understand you (you are yelling and he can’t hear you). From what you have told me, that is all true. It is a feeling like insecurity but it isn’t exactly what we mean by insecurity – just the feeling that someone you count on to catch you isn’t there when you need him. Narc or Aspie, it’s probably the same experience. I once asked MRN to stay in touch every day. I was going through a particularly anxious phase and I needed him to steady me (he had caused the anxiety with his intermittent reinforcement). He did it, thankfully, for a whole month and I began to feel pretty calm – I even began to disconnect. But then he didn’t tell me he was going away for a few days and simply disappeared, and there I was explaining to him why it was wrong. Even when they are ‘there’ they do not understand why they are there!!
Yes, SMH, that’s how I interpreted it. It is funny to me how people see “right and wrong” and usually not all the subtle, complex, interlacing factors at play in the individual human experience. I remember once reading about a woman whose husband had serious echolalia, her husband would literally repeat what she said, and she was angry and yelling frequently or some such thing. Someone berated her for being insensitive to his condition, which I get, but i know what the feeling like being not heard is like intimately and all too well. I believe that empathy involves looking at things beyond the surface expectations, which are actually objectifying if you think about it, and understanding things aren’t always simple, obvious or fixable. People often have competing and conflicting interests that defy quick and obvious solutions that make everyone feel good about themselves and support their own need to feel moral.
I told him about the dream. He has for a couple of months made concessions, as you are describing, to help stop the hurricane. Things are moving along one way or another, in a good way.
Nunya Biz,
I am so glad you told him, he understands and is trying. MRN also tried but as you note, he could not really read me. He would ask me to be more direct. But when I would, he would just more directly do what he did anyway.
I am thinking of one instance where he suddenly left a conversation that he had initiated (I only rarely initiated) and when I asked why, he said he thought that *I* didn’t want to talk because my responses to him were brief. Of course, I was trying to be more direct and not write theses, but he did not read it that way. And even then it might have been just an excuse to destabilize me again.
Another time, I failed to respond and he then bombarded me with messages. I wrote back that I just thought I was stressed due to work, that I didn’t want to take that out on him, that he was travelling and we wouldn’t see each other, that my son was with me, etc. What was interesting to me was his reaction when I did not respond. He had those feelings of panic too – maybe for different reasons but he had them. Yet he could not empathize with me. It is all so maddening even if it is not deliberate.
I do really hope your husband really can understand your needs, meet some of them, and change.
SMH, so now I had a dream that was similar to your dream- was alone with a man, caught out, exposed to a large group of people.
Lol, I think that’s just from talking so much on narcsite.
: P
Thank you SMH.
I’m sorry I didn’t respond earlier. I wasn’t in the right head space to read your words without reacting in a defensive way. Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences. There’s so many narcs out there it’s unbelievable. When I’m in danger my first line of defense is humour and then I freeze or pretend everything is ok. Not helpful at all. It’s probably something I’ve been doing my whole life.
It was my plan to make this guy wait and go on a few dates first because I really liked him. I had said that to him a few times that night. It was late and I was tired and I thought it could be nice. I wish it didn’t turn out the way it did. It was so scary.
I can’t get over the fact that he thought that was normal. The police officer told me there might be a chance that he confesses when she calls him and I really thought he would! It was just so blatantly obvious that I thought it was a cry for help or something. He said he would never do that to anyone. He couldn’t even say the word. I will never understand what goes on in these people’s heads. We’re just wired differently.
HG are all rapists narcissists?
Actually that doesn’t even matter. All rapists are rapists.
HI Twisted Heart, For some reason I cannot find your whole comment in the posts so I can only see the bit that is in my email inbox. It is something about reading my comment in a defensive way. That must have been my comment about 3 dates? Anyway, I worried that it might come across the wrong way, especially when you were raw, so thanks for not lashing out at me. I agree that all rapists are rapists, no matter what.
Maybe my example was bad but what I meant to say more broadly is that sometimes if you make rules for yourself, you don’t have to make decisions about whether to do X or Y. You just follow your own rules to keep yourself safer. For instance, I gave MRN an ultimatum/rule if he ever wanted to be in touch with me again. I know he will never do it. Therefore, I also know that we will never be in touch again as long as I stick to my rule. If he contacts me, I can say ‘are you divorced now? Are you standing on your own two feet? Can you be a partner rather than a dictator?’ Of course not!! So you do not get to have me. Simples.
For me it was the only way to disentangle myself because I could not count on my own will power. I did have all of those disturbing date experiences in the past few years. They are all true. So I do still think the 3 date rule is a good one. That doesn’t mean I would always follow it – I obviously didn’t with MRN. But with an artificial rule like that I would have a better chance of protecting myself. It’s no different to me telling myself, if I cannot do things my way, say at work, then I will not do them at all. In other words, it’s now my way or the highway. I make exceptions – for my kids, for other people who need me, for teamwork, for people who have proven that they are worth compromising for. But as a general rule, if I have to compromise my wants and needs, or make myself less than I am, in order to get ‘something’ – then maybe I am better off with nothing.
Most, but not all. You may for instance have an individual who is drunk and commits rape when drunk. That individual may not be a narcissist but their abusive behaviour was a temporary aberration caused by an external agent, i.e. being drunk.
Hi
Just watched the 1985 movie Fright Night ,omg the nite club seduction scene what woman could resist that .
HG I could imagine you being just like Chris Sarandon the vampire in that sexy scene.
That’s what a narcs seduction is like.
Kiki
Kiki: I this the scene? ~~https://youtu.be/SAvUfOFiQmM
Hi Kiki, I’ve never seen this movie. In 1985 I was 10 years old. A neighbor, working in a movie theater and gave me some fluorescent fangs, from the promotion of the movie. I always wanted to see that movie. Who would tell me that 8 years later, I would live in my flesh a decade of psychological terror with my narcissist a sucker of emotional attention. Too bad I didn’t have a stake on hand in those days.
On the occasion of your comment, I think I have this movie pending that I’m going to see today.
That’s how they see us, like crazy when we tell someone that our narcissists are emotional vampires. Who’s going to believe us?
I’ve never seen the movie before. But I’m having a lot of fun, at least I’m laughing at a lot of the moments in the movie.
Hi JG I was only a tot in 1985 too. I saw Fright night lately and was transfixed by the niteclub scene (this scene is classed as one of the most sensual ever ) no nudity just so powerful. You can see it on youtube. A lot of people felt the same way as me about this scene so I don’t think Im crazy lol.
It is exactly like a greater narc seduction , the way the sexy alluring all powerful vampire toys sensually with the hopeless transfixed object of his affection on the dance floor. She hasn’t a hope.Cool music also.
I know its naughty to say but I could really imagine HG having that sort of effect.
HG so does not have that kind of game! Haha
I think he could. well his voice anyway.
Kiki